If Celia falls pregnant

[Sereg]

This has got me wondering since Sara mentioned it. If Celia and Roy do have a child (after he has been raised of course), what will the child's race be? Is there a half-sylph template or something from a book I don't own. If so what is such a creature like?

[BizzaroStormy]

Well with basic genetics, you would only have a 50% chance for a half-sylph. the rest is 25% for human and 25% for full sylph.

[Smiley_]

I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.

[Sereg]

I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.

As a geneticist myself I can confirm this.

[PirateMonk]

I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.

That's only if syplhiness is tied to one gene, and even then only the dominant gene would take effect, leaving you either a sylph with recessive human genes or a human with recessive sylph genes.

I think that's how it works, anyway.

[Mauve Shirt]

There's a 100% chance because any pairing in such a setting that results in offspring is going to give exactly half of each parent to the child.

[Warlord JK]

Yeah, just put it in a punnett square and all it comes out as is 100% half-human half-slyph, assuming one gene controls whether or human and one gene control slyphiness.

[Knaight]

Not to mention that 1 gene is an exceptionally low number, considering that all they change is protein forming. As for the half human, half slyph, 25% thing, that would be if roy and celia had a kid, neither gene was dominant, somebody else did the same thing, and then those two kids bred. Punnet squares:

--H---H
s Hs Hs
s Hs Hs

Then for the two half slyph.
--H----s
H HH Hs
s Hs ss

This is of course highly simplified, but it helps to get the point across. If anybody wants to do the whole table thing with it, feel free.

[Sereg]

As Pirate Monk claims, if Sylphiness/humaness is a single gene trait with complete dominance, then the child will be 100% the dominant race. In all other situations (which are more likely as race probably involves several genes), then the child would be 50% human, 50% sylph. However my point was, is this called a 1/2 sylph, are there stats for such things, or would it be an air genasi or something I've never heard of?

[Felixaar]

Assuming neither the Slyph or Human gene is dominate (which seems unlikely since in DnD, elves/humans always make half-elves, and orc/human always makes half-orc), then yes, it would be a half slyph, unless there is the unlikely chance that one of Celia's ancestor's was a human and by some string of luck she has managed to keep a recesssive human gene, or vice versa with Roy having a slyph ancestor. Doesn't seem very likely though.

[Theodoriph]

That's only if syplhiness is tied to one gene, and even then only the dominant gene would take effect, leaving you either a sylph with recessive human genes or a human with recessive sylph genes.

I think that's how it works, anyway.



Yeah....because something as complex as Slyphiness would realistically be tied to only one gene...instead of, I don't know....every gene...since they all define the traits of the slyph.


Even eye colour in humans is tied to multiple genes.


Not to mention you're assuming Sylphs have an equal number of chromosomes to human and that said chromosomes in sylphs and humans code for similar traits.



EDIT: Our of idle curiosity...which of our chromosomes codes for being human? If you can answer that and provide a reliable source, I'll give you an e-cookie.

[Knaight]

Like I said, all 1 gene controls is a specific protein(ie hemoglobin might be a single gene). But its simplified to make it easier to understand.

[YeahThatGuy]

The child will be Miko reincarnated.

[Assassin89]

The child will be Miko reincarnated.

I don't think so because the potential child will not be lawful stupid. Naive, maybe, but not insane

[Felixaar]

EDIT: Our of idle curiosity...which of our chromosomes codes for being human? If you can answer that and provide a reliable source, I'll give you an e-cookie.

Chromosome 6? :smallconfused:

Book of the same name, by Robin Cook? :smallconfused:

This is just a random guess.

[Knaight]

Where exactly the line human is drawn is pretty ambiguous, as it comes down to whether the human can breed with another human(excepting sterility) and produce a fertile child, meaning that there is going to have to be a benchmark, and as there isn't we have no real measure. Because of that no individual chromosome does control it, although it is the sex chromosomes which have the biggest influence, as the difference between a XXY, XY, and XYY male are dramatic(although X versus XX in females isn't).

[Schulzy]

The only thing I can think of while reading this thread is tho hot slyph sex involved here.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The child will be Miko reincarnated.



I don't think so because the potential child will not be lawful stupid. Naive, maybe, but not insane

That's why you have to reincarnate Shojo's soul in the same body, too! They'll cancel each other out and the kid can start to grow it's own personality!

[Caleniel]

Well with basic genetics, you would only have a 50% chance for a half-sylph. the rest is 25% for human and 25% for full sylph.

:smalleek:
:smalleek:

Now, I don't mean to be snarky, but what on earth do you mean?

It's just that I'm a geneticist, you see. So it bothers me. I assume this must be a misunderstanding of Mendel's second law, but a major one.

With basic genetics, there would be a 100% chance of the offspring containing half human and half sylph genes, trust me.

Maybe the issue is this: If Celia had grandchildren, and these grandchildren came from a mating between two of her own offspring (sorry, you can do it in animal breeding. Or plants.), then, given that for each individual gene her offspring have exactly one human- and one sylph-copy, the grandchildren would have 50% offspring with again one human- and one sylph-copy, while 25% grandchildren would have two human copies and the last 25% would have two sylph copies. But that goes for each _particular_ gene. Averaged over all of their DNA, the grandchildren arising from such a sibling crossing would STILL be exactly 50% human and 50% sylph. And also 50% inbred.

Anyway, this is where the 1:2:1 ratio happens in genetics. I guess that must be where you got a bit mixed up.

Celia and Roy's offspring would ALL be exactly 50% human and 50% sylph, since they originate from a fusion between two cells with exactly 50% of the genes you need to make a whole organism.

Thanks, I just needed to get that out of my system. :smallsmile:

(EDIT: Heh, I can see other geneticists beat me to it. There's what comes from replying without reading the whole thread. I just got carried away, sorry...)

[InaVegt]

The 'human' DNA should be DNA that fits two criteria.

1) It should not be present in any living nonhuman (excluding any possible half breeds)
2) It should be (very nearly) the same in all living humans (excluding any possible half breeds)

If you can find this DNA, you've got what makes us humans.

As a matter of fact, I know of at least one gene that fits to these criteria. One of the genes responsible for our jaw muscles. While a similar gene exists in most primates (perhaps even most mammals), our version has mutated, shrinking our jaw muscles immensely. (Source is a National Geographic show about Will Wright's quest for discovering more about evolution)

[Belkster11]

I'm not as smart about genetics as Caleniel and PirateJesus are, but I always figured it was 50/50. Roy's and Celia's baby would be part-human and part-sylph. (Like Therkla was part-human, part-orc)

Once that baby matured and decided to have a child of his/her own, that child would be 3/4 sylph and 3/4 human.

Again, I may have gotten the calculations wrong....in fact, I think I did.

[Atelm]

There's a half-fey template in the 3.5 Fiend Folio. Although Sylph are not Fey (had to check, I sort of had the impression that they were), it's the closest thing, or sounds like it to me at least, to what template could be used for Roy's and Celia's hypothetical offspring.

[Querzis]

There's a half-fey template in the 3.5 Fiend Folio. Although Sylph are not Fey (had to check, I sort of had the impression that they were), it's the closest thing, or sounds like it to me at least, to what template could be used for Roy's and Celia's hypothetical offspring.

Or:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

Download the manual of planes and there is a template for half-elemental.

Edit: And to answer Mastikator, yes they do. Everything in D&D can reproduce together :smallwink:.

[Mastikator]

Um, do elementals even have DNA? Celia is a para-elemental, and I always figured that elementals and outsiders are spiritual lifeforms, not material.

[Knaight]

(EDIT: Heh, I can see other geneticists beat me to it. There's what comes from replying without reading the whole thread. I just got carried away, sorry...)

Correction: Other Geneticists and a high school student who paid attention in freshman year biology.

Oh and belskter, you definitely got it wrong. Its either 100%/100% (as both genes have a 100% chance of showing up, assuming a single gene) then 75%/75% for both genes, or it goes from 50-50, to 75-25, to use your numbers. Or two opposite 75-25s produce a 50-50. This deals with more than one gene though, and using your phrasing its confusing. Basically it is impossible for something to be 75% slyph, 75% human, because that adds up to 150.

[Sereg]

Firstly, I must congratulate Caleniel on an excelent explanation of Mendelian Genetics. It is both accurate and more easy to understand than what I would have probably said.

To Belkster11, yes your calculations are wrong. You are getting confused because there are multiple posibilities. If the child mated with a human, the result would be 3/4 human, 1/4 sylph, if it mated with a sylph, the result would be 3/4 sylph, 1/4 human, if it mated with another 1/2 sylph 1/2 human, the result would still be 1/2 sylph, 1/2 human. Unless there was a single gene determining sylphiness/humanness.

To Querzis, thank you, I didn't realise Manual of the planes had a 1/2 elemental template.

To Mastikator, even spiritual beings mate in DnD. They can often mate with many species so maybe they magically make DNA conveniant for what they want to mate with.

Edit: Yes, it is impossible to total to more than 100%

[tenguro]

It could be a human with sylph bloodline, for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, check out unearthed Arcana, has a list of bloodlines, and gives rules for making one.

[jamroar]

This has got me wondering since Sara mentioned it. If Celia and Roy do have a child (after he has been raised of course), what will the child's race be? Is there a half-sylph template or something from a book I don't own. If so what is such a creature like?

In AD&D, the offspring of a humanoid and a sylph is always a female sylph, and they lay eggs, like the medusa. What they are like in OOTSworld is anyone's guess, since Celia's treehugging ex-boyfriend is apparently the same race. (Maybe he's some kind of fey creature instead?).

[Edhelras]

LOL, I'm a half-geneticist myself....

This hole debate, I had it recently on another website discussing what would be the offspring of Half-elf and Elf.

The whole debate seems to hinge on people believing "race" to be a single-gene trait (alternatively a single-chromosome feature, something which is quite strange as except from the sex chromosomes, no specific function can be assigned to the chromosome as such; function is related to genes, and each chromosome contains a wide variety of genes. Therefore, whole-chromosome disorders like trisomies produce offspring (if viable) with a large set of different malfunctions). Which is ridiculous, given the enormous amount of differences between sylphs and humans. The whole business of growing wings, for instance, would require a large amount of genes to make them grow and function.

The other error made is of course that the whole concept of "race" is flawed. It's only usable in web-comics and DnD (which is, BTW, the topic of this debate....:smallwink: ). IRL - and if you choose to talk about genetics, you're kind of introducing IRL whether you want to or not - you cannot really talk about race, at least not when you're looking at a particular individual and try to assign it to this or that race. There are so many shared properties between different "races", and so many individuals who from one point of view appears to belong to race A but from another point of view have much more in common with race B. You can only talk about race if you choose a certain set of criteria, arbitrarily chosen and overlooking other creteria, that possibly are more important to function and should be more prominent in classification.

Even if you look at these specific criteria (like, to take the obvious, skin colour, curliness of hair, thickness of lips - yes, I'm your typical caucasian, and to people from my part of the world, the African blacks are the most obvious "other race" when the subject is brought up) you'll find it in many cases difficult to decide whether the individual is fitting into this or that category. How curly hair is curly? How dark a coloration of the skin? Obviously, there are some clearcut cases, but inevitably, you'll find borderline cases that make the whole "race" discussion useless.

In DnD, it's much simpler. All elves have low-light vision, heck, even blind ones. All dwarves are stable, even one-legged ones. All humans are resourcefull, even stupid ones. And so on.

Which is why I concur with the OP. Just focusing on simple DnD mechanics; what should we call the offspring of Roy and Celia? I would term it Half-sylph, because that's the way things are done in DnD: Every time you use Half - if not otherwise stated - it means half-human, half-other creature.
Generally, if the template doesn't exist, you should take away some of the most spectacular features of the sylph - like the wings (replace with lesser flying-like abilities, perhaps even the ability to levitate), cut the benefits in half (magical abilities, for instance) and add some skill points. Reduce expected longevity to some years above normal human life expectancies.

As for eye colour, well, just follow ordinary RL rules... :smallwink:

[teratorn]

I thought all sylphs were female. They need to mate with other races but the offspring is always 100% sylph (and female).

For the geneticists out here, think of it as parthenogenesis with the male being there just to get the process going.

Oops, ninja'd.


In AD&D, the offspring of a humanoid and a sylph is always a female sylph, and they lay eggs, like the medusa. What they are like in OOTSworld is anyone's guess, since Celia's treehugging ex-boyfriend is apparently the same race. (Maybe he's some kind of fey creature instead?).

Yes, that was what I remembered, always female and egg-laying.

[Sereg]

Wow! How many geneticists does this place have? (of course I'm still studying so I may not fully count)

Anyway I think my question has been answered, but a few points.

1. I think bloodlines assume the ancestor lived in the distant past.

2. That form of parthenogenesis is called gynogenesis and would be possible if it weren't for the fact that there are male sylphs in OOTS (also in such a species, the offspring would be identical to the mother) (I actually developed a new mating system to account for this while still allowing for some genetic diversity but it is quite complicated and beyond the purpose of this discussion)

3. Yes, race as it is usually considered is a flawed idea as they mix to much to sepparate them (My honours project actually proves that most of the past racist rulers of my country were not completely white) of course what we call race IRL would be called sub-race in DnD, but even still every race would be part another race. (I personally use the term to refer to an assortively mating population.)

[Caleniel]

Firstly, I must congratulate Caleniel on an excelent explanation of Mendelian Genetics. It is both accurate and more easy to understand than what I would have probably said.



Thanks Sereg! That means a lot to me, actually. I teach genetics and I like teaching, so being understood is one of my major goals... :smallsmile:

I think this discussion is fun!




The whole debate seems to hinge on people believing "race" to be a single-gene trait [much interesting stuff snipped]

The other error made is of course that the whole concept of "race" is flawed. It's only usable in web-comics and DnD (which is, BTW, the topic of this debate....:smallwink: ). [...]

I think you take way too molecular a view here, Edhelras. You need population genetics to get at this type of problem (my field, incidentally!):smallsmile: It's a matter of statistics, really: Since we have many thousands of coding genes, and even more varieties of regulatory factors, and since chromosomes recombine, population genetics tends to assume an infinite number of gene variants, and then the probabilities even out. Considering single genes makes no sense here, as you also conclude.

Your second point: I couldn't agree more that "races" in RL are arbitrary, subjective and poorly defined units. You can easily define "populations" though - and that's what population genetics does. Populations are defined as units that reproduce among themselves, not with other populations. Inevitably (being one species), they have at some point been interbreeding, and their level of divergenge depends on how far back this situation lies. A gene is then a "human" gene or a "sylph" gene respectively, when derived from an ancestor belonging to that population, whether they are divergent or not. Very divergent populations are what we call races in RL, but like you say "very" is not an objective term. All variable genes in humans share variants across what we consider human "races", so our populations have diverged very little. You find lots and lots of genes, even several variants of the same gene, shared across species too, but the distinction between populations and species is whether the breeding barrier is reversible or not: Seperate species are not supposed to be able to produce fertile offspring.


I thought all sylphs were female. They need to mate with other races but the offspring is always 100% sylph (and female).

For the geneticists out here, think of it as parthenogenesis with the male being there just to get the process going.



And then it gets funny! :smallbiggrin: There are actually stick insects in RL using this manner of reproduction - some parthenogenetic sibling species reproduce without males, but they still need the actual mating just to set things going. So, they are really reproductive parasites of the species with makes, since the male doesn't get to transmit his genes.

Poor Celia, now I called her a parasite. But it's sort of appropriate though, isn't it? Stick insects...

[hamishspence]

Roy snappishly refers to her as a paralegal, and she says paraelemental, actually.

Now Manual of the Planes defines paraelementals very strictly, but it is possible that The Giant is using his own colloquial term- meaning any creature native to the elemental planes, that doesn't actually have the elemental type.

[Fred Fumblrol]

It'll be born with one wing, and will only be able to fly in circles.

[teratorn]

Wow! How many geneticists does this place have?


I remember a thread in the Erfworld forum with 5 physicists posting. Glad to see you guys in genetics are as big a nerds as we are...

[Lissou]

I thought all sylphs were female. They need to mate with other races but the offspring is always 100% sylph (and female).

...
...
In French, there is a word for a female sylph, and another word for a female sylph.
Just thought I'd point that out. Them being only female doesn't make sense if there is a word for both, you know.

[Ticktockcitrus]

Um...maybe they're incapable of having children together?

I mean, seriously. I realize that DND operates under much more lenient rules than the real world. But technically, it's pretty rare that two different species are capable of producing a child together. Yes, sylphs and humans appear to have definite physical similarities. So do humans and chimps.

On the other hand, VERY similar species sometimes can. Lions and tigers. Coyotes and wolves.

But--a lot of the time--hybrid offspring are sterile, and can have some pretty crazy behavioral and physiological issues. Roy and Celia have a kid, it could end up being completely incapable of ever having children, have a great deal of strange diseases, grow faster than humans or sylphs, grow slower than humans or sylphs, not grow, be susceptible to weird parasites, be extra-aggressive, be absurdly docile, be mentally disabled, or (since this is DnD) have some sort of absurd power like the ability to create Glenfiddich from blueberries.

...Than again, as stated above, this is DnD. Which appears to operate under the "if they look similar, they can haz kiddies" rule.

Oh, and just to be nitpicky...

People FALL sick; they BECOME pregnant.

It's not like "I'm sorry, sir...I have to stay home from work with my wife. She appears to have fallen pregnant..."

No, more like

"Sorry sir, my wife and I had extraordinary amounts of hot sex because we wanted a child."

Pregnancy is not the flu. For one thing, It lasts longer.

[snoopy13a]

Everyone knows that the genes for Syph wings come from Mitochondrian DNA :smallbiggrin:

So, a Syph/human hybrid whose mother is a Syph will have wings but a hybrid whose mother is a human will not.

Unfortunately, like mules, Syph/human hybrids are sterile :smalltongue:

[Mina Kobold]

Three points
1: AD&D is not the same as 3.5 D&D. No race in this edition are only female so stop arguing about that.
2: I think about humanoid as human races and the D&D human as Homo Sapiens. Example if a tripe of some human race was isolated on an island until today they probably would be different than both Homo Sapiens AND the original race. If it was easy to live on the island they could be better than us (like elves) if it was hard then maybe they would be worse than us (like orcs).
So its probably because of magic or something that so many races exist. All this proves races so stop saying they don't exist:mad:.
3: Magic in this world has changed lot of things from real world stuff so take it with a gran of salt (plus human species have matet before creating new races thats pretty similar to half-somethings so its easy half-sylph for the kid. and it's correct that its 100% chance for a half-human half-sylph)

[hamishspence]

From what I remember, sometimes even different genuses can hybridize, especially at the bird level. Two ducks of different genus, for example.

I think they may be more likely to be sterile than those of different species.

EDIT: Medusas, sort of- the male of their species has very different abilities to the female. All medusas are female, but they belong to a common race which has males and females- males are Maedar, females Medusas. Maedar appeared in 3rd ed in Dragon Magazine, and also in 4th ed, under the name Male Medusa.

[Mina Kobold]

Um...maybe they're incapable of having children together?

I mean, seriously. I realize that DND operates under much more lenient rules than the real world. But technically, it's pretty rare that two different species are capable of producing a child together. Yes, sylphs and humans appear to have definite physical similarities. So do humans and chimps.

On the other hand, VERY similar species sometimes can. Lions and tigers. Coyotes and wolves.

But--a lot of the time--hybrid offspring are sterile, and can have some pretty crazy behavioral and physiological issues. Roy and Celia have a kid, it could end up being completely incapable of ever having children, have a great deal of strange diseases, grow faster than humans or sylphs, grow slower than humans or sylphs, not grow, be susceptible to weird parasites, be extra-aggressive, be absurdly docile, be mentally disabled, or (since this is DnD) have some sort of absurd power like the ability to create Glenfiddich from blueberries.

...Than again, as stated above, this is DnD. Which appears to operate under the "if they look similar, they can haz kiddies" rule.

Oh, and just to be nitpicky...

People FALL sick; they BECOME pregnant.

It's not like "I'm sorry, sir...I have to stay home from work with my wife. She appears to have fallen pregnant..."

No, more like

"Sorry sir, my wife and I had extraordinary amounts of hot sex because we wanted a child."

Preganacy is not the flu. For one thing, It lasts longer.

See my comment about every race being a specie of the Homo line.
Also outsiders could be descendants of sorceres from dumb species that long ago accidently planeshifted into the plane and then began changing evolutionary to fit the sorroundings. Also magic and actual gods thats gonna have an influence:tongue:

[hamishspence]

In Races of Destiny non-human humanoids with the human subtype are shown.

Non-humanoid-humanoid crosses generally require some form of magic- some dragons can shapechange into humanoid form, for example.

EDIT: and many (not all) outsider races, mostly Native outsiders, are descendants of Outsider-humanoid cross- Tieflings, Genasi, etc.

Air outsider + Human, in Faerun, tends to produce Genasi, whereas Elemental-Human crosses tend to produce half-elementals, and genasi further down the line.
Air genasi are good at using and resisting Air magic, and can levitate once per day.

[lyric76]

I think we can ALL agree on one thing.

Geneticists like Order of the Stick!

Spread the word.

[Mina Kobold]

I think we can ALL agree on one thing.

Geneticists like Order of the Stick!

Spread the word.

They are nerds too, have you ever thought about a connection:tongue:

[Fighteer]

The whole concept of cross-species mating in D&D, from a genetic standpoint, is ridiculous. Demihumans and some humanoid crosses (half-elf, half-orc) are at least theoretically possible if one postulates relatively minor divergence from a common gene pool. Now, any species biologist looking at the spectra of humanoid racial types found in D&D would probably have a heart attack when asked if they could crossbreed, but that's a different matter.

If we're going to kill catgirls, why not go even further and try to explain how something Celia's size can fly (or worse, hover) on insect-style wings, or shoot lightning from its fingers? These imply genetic variations far greater than pointy ears and night vision. And let's not even go down the path of how a creature can polymorph itself and then breed with a member of its assumed race.

The argument is even sillier when you look at the majority of D&D cosmologies, in which pretty much every race/species is divinely created. If The Gods Did It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt), they pretty much get their say in how things breed, and if they want to say that humans and elves, humans and sylphs, or even humans and tana'ari can cross breed, that's pretty much their prerogative and the geneticists can go fly a kite. :smallamused:

[Kaytara]

Firstly, kudos to all the genetics-savvy people here. Nice to have some specialists in the fray.

To add my own two cents, when a child is conceived, for each characteristic it gets 50% of the genes from the father and 50% from the mother. Therefore, the offspring of a pure human and a pure sylph would be completely half and half. If that offspring then mates with another half and half, that's where each, say, human half of the trait may HAPPEN to combine with the human half from the other parent, creating a pureblood human. (Or sylph, respectively.) It may happen not to.

In DnD, though, it doesn't have to get that complicated. If dragons, ogres, orcs, elves, and outsiders (like Celia) such as devils and demons can mate with humans, there's no reason for sylphs to be an exception.

[Sylphy]

Sylph's laying eggs...
Only female...
Geneticists...
Falling pregnant...


My head!

[hamishspence]

yes- dragons, Fey, & Outsiders- Magic and lots of it.

Ogres are one of the biggest, and human-descended big enough to look like ogres (or small enough to look like halflings) are a common trope- Ogryns and Ratlings in 40K - called abhumans.

Trolls- again, probably magic.

[Mina Kobold]

Sylph's laying eggs...
Only female...Geneticists...
Falling pregnant...


My head!

thick lined: AD&D ignore it it has no relevance and has been changed a long long time ago.
this-way lined: Its fun and just say your opinion smart or not we will appeciate (sorry for bad spelling) it:smile:

[teratorn]

...
...
In French, there is a word for a female sylph, and another word for a female sylph.
Just thought I'd point that out. Them being only female doesn't make sense if there is a word for both, you know.

Sigh... I'm well aware of the French designation. In my native language (Portuguese) sylph is a male word, with the feminine french form used as a synonym for fey. The French managed to get sylphs confused with feys because of the ballet La Sylphide.

Originally sylphs were an alchemist thing, air elementals. They were supposed to be angel like creatures, although what they look like exactly is pretty vague.

But the sylphs I remember in DnD are a creature in the monster manual. They are air elementals, they get invisibility and sorcerous casting ability, they lay eggs, are pretty small and all female.

[hamishspence]

we know that outsiders of the Outer Planes are usually (not always) ex mortals- souls reborn as petitioners, who progress all the way up to things like Solars (or down to things like Pit Fiends)

But its not so clear where Outsiders of the Inner planes come from- genies and the like.

Faerun, at least, has gods of the iner planes, with followers, so the upgraded petitioner approach could work if you add Elemental Gods oto your setting.

Also, I thing Dragon magazine suggests the Elemental Gods exist in generic D&D as well- the Princes Of Elemental Evil (and good) are subject to them.

[hamishspence]

Monster Manual 2 in 3.0- still small, sorcerer casting (remember standard rule is levels in sorcerer stack with this) Improved Invisibility, and are "friendly, especially to human males"

Since Evil Outsider doesn't specify alignment subtype, or being Extraplanar, in Blackguard description, if Celia went dark, would she qualify to initiate Roy into Blackguard class? If he wanted to be initiated. (someone would, of course have to Summon her)

This is admittedly a very technical reading of the term Evil Outsider.

[Mina Kobold]

Sigh... I'm well aware of the French designation. In my native language (Portuguese) sylph is a male word, with the feminine french form used as a synonym for fey. The French managed to get sylphs confused with feys because of the ballet La Sylphide.

Originally sylphs were an alchemist thing, air elementals. They were supposed to be angel like creatures, although what they look like exactly is pretty vague.

But the sylphs I remember in DnD are a creature in the monster manual. They are air elementals, they get invisibility and sorcerous casting ability, they lay eggs, are pretty small and all female.

:sigh: Read comic one it says they're 3.5 EDITION:furious:. Stop using old AD&D rules (besides we saw her previous boyfriend and he was a sylph too).

[hamishspence]

and 3.0 MM2 was updated to 3.5 in online article.

[Mina Kobold]

and 3.0 MM2 was updated to 3.5 in online article.

Never heard about it does it say sylph lay eggs and only are female? If not then I'm right

[hamishspence]

Doesn't mention eggs, does say "appears as a small beautiful woman" Most of the All-Female races are fey- nereids, dryads, nymphs, rusalka, Yuki-ki-ona, etc.

Maybe Rich decided "or man" had been left out of MM2.

[Wreckingrocc]

The entire system of DnD is messed up. I guess that elves, humans, orcs, dragons, and everything else that can breed with humans are one species. Dwarves, Eladrin, etc. are of a different species.

Technically, a species is a group of organisms that can reproduce and have offspring also capable of reproduction. Unless I'm mistaken, half-dragons, half-orcs, and half-elves can all reproduce. Dwarves and humans, unless hidden in some obscure source book, cannot. Elves, orcs, humans, and dragons are all very closely related, and they are all of one species.

The racial idea is very messed up. If there were another realm where some other race (Like Eladrin) appeared, although similar to humans, they probably do not have the same genetic makeup. When you think about how genetics work, it's really messed up to think that something so similar can appear completely by coincidence.

Genetics and DnD do not mix. Point proven (I think).

[Mina Kobold]

Doesn't mention eggs, does say "appears as a small beautiful woman" Most of the All-Female races are fey- nereids, dryads, nymphs, rusalka, Yuki-ki-ona, etc.

Maybe Rich decided "or man" had been left out of MM2.

Ever thought about it being an example or just that the female represent them instead of man (if you take it litterately most races would be only male).
Besides thats Richs choice.

[hamishspence]

Erinyes "resemble women or men" and Exemplars of evil has a male one. While Fiendish codex 2 says "these female devils consider themselves a cut above the other inhabitants of Baator because they can bear children" I'm guessing that only applies to female eriynes.

[Caleniel]

Genetics and DnD do not mix. Point proven (I think).

Absolutely right. It was fun though... :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

an you don't need genetics in D&D to have new races from crossbreeding,. Mostly planetouched.

[hamishspence]

For those who want their half orcs/ half elves etc to be more human there is the Human Heritage feat from Races of destiny- gives them Human subtype as well as their normal subtype. Can help represent 3/4 humans.

Descendants of half-dragons and humans are Draconic creatures- which have the Draconic template. and, eventually, Humans with Draconic Heritage feats.

[R.O.A.]

Genetics is only relevant if DNA exists in D&D. We're talking about a world with magic, where other scientific laws, such as the conservation of energy, are broken regulalarly - so why would genetics still apply? We've seen half-elves with one ear pointy and the other as human for example.

[vrellum]

I don't see anything in the comic that states that Celia's ex was a slyph. Some dude with wings, but lots of humanoids have wings in DnD so he could have been something else.

BTW: I'm a geneticist too, but I think the genetics angle has been covered pretty well so I'll not add to that part of the discussion.

[Axl_Rose]

Well with basic genetics, you would only have a 50% chance for a half-sylph. the rest is 25% for human and 25% for full sylph.

That's not how genetics work. Or rather, that's not how it's applied.





Think of it like this; if you cross a dog with a wolf, you do not have

"a 25% chance of wolf, 25% chance of dog, 50% chance of hybrid"

It's 100% hybrid.

[snoopy13a]

Technically, a species is a group of organisms that can reproduce and have offspring also capable of reproduction.


That's not necessarily true. The definition of species is more complex and contraversial than that. Organisms that can breed and have fertile offspring but usually do not for behavioral reasons are often considered different species by taxonomists.

[hamishspence]

And there there is continuum of subspecies, each of which can interbreed with each other, but ones at either end of continuum, who share range, cannot- Herring Gull and Lesser Black-Backed Gull.

[vrellum]

Not to mention large mouth bass from Michigan and large mouth bass from Florida. The water temperatures that induce spawning don't overlap so they can not breed without human intervention. However, it is possible to force them breed by artificially mixing egg and sperm and the offspring are completely fine.


Dog and wolf is another example. A dog-wolf hybrid is quite healthy and fertile, the two don't interbreed much because of the limited range of the wolf. However, mixing has been on the increase and this mixing of the two groups will probably eventually drive the wolf to "extinction".

[Sereg]

Yikes! I never realised that this would initiate such a massive debate.

Firstly, this proves that you CAN mix Genetics and DnD, but only if you're prepared to get a mess as big as this. (Which can be fun)

Secondly, I don't claim that races don't exist, just what the popular concept of what races are (there's just to much crossbreeding).

Thirdly, as for "falls pregnant" it must be a dialectual thing. It's perfectly normal to say that where I live.

[DanielX]

I think the presence of half dragons pretty much proves that Mendelian/Darwinian genetics got thrown completely out the window in DnD. I mean, dragons aren't hominids, heck they lay eggs and thus are no closer to humans or elves genetically than a platypus is. And, unless one partner or the other is a shape shifter (itself a highly improbable genetic trait), or the whole thing happens due to magic, I'm not sure I want to imagine how that would even work...:smalleek:

But anyway, I think its safe to say that, if Roy and Celia have a child, its genetic composition will be determined primarily by plot, secondarily by whatever the various DnD books and supplements say a half-sylph (or half-elemental or whatever) is like, and only last (if at all) actual, real-world genetics.

[hamishspence]

half-air outsider is air genasi in Faerun. Sylphs don't have Good subtype, so half-celestial or, eventually, aasimar, is not on the cards.

[Mina Kobold]

I think the presence of half dragons pretty much proves that Mendelian/Darwinian genetics got thrown completely out the window in DnD. I mean, dragons aren't hominids, heck they lay eggs and thus are no closer to humans or elves genetically than a platypus is. And, unless one partner or the other is a shape shifter (itself a highly improbable genetic trait), or the whole thing happens due to magic, I'm not sure I want to imagine how that would even work...:smalleek:

But anyway, I think its safe to say that, if Roy and Celia have a child, its genetic composition will be determined primarily by plot, secondarily by whatever the various DnD books and supplements say a half-sylph (or half-elemental or whatever) is like, and only last (if at all) actual, real-world genetics.

you're right (as me and some other guys already sayed, "magic"). But then I could imagine how: The dragons genes are magicaly changed and therefore human due to the magic. But the childs genes would only have partly the effect of the magic and therefore it would have some parts where its dragon. But the human genes probably wins in most places due to the rest of the magic effect so they're probably mamals with dragonlike traits (sorta like if the polymorph stops halfway thru the transformation).

[Fighteer]

you're right (as me and some other guys already sayed, "magic"). But then I could imagine how: The dragons genes are magicaly changed and therefore human due to the magic. But the childs genes would only have partly the effect of the magic and therefore it would have some parts where its dragon. But the human genes probably wins in most places due to the rest of the magic effect so they're probably mamals with dragonlike traits (sorta like if the polymorph stops halfway thru the transformation).
Anyone with even the slightest modern understanding of genetics would tell you that when you mash together two completely different genomes, what you get isn't a "half dragon, half human". What you get is a cell that usually dies before its first mitosis, and even if it somehow matures, it's a horribly deformed, crippled thing. Okay, so magic may "stabilize the genome", but you've just gone right back to the A Wizard Did It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt) explanation.

You cannot reconcile genetics with D&D without invoking magic, and the very instant you introduce magic into a scientific system, you throw any hope of credibility or consistency out the window.

[Mina Kobold]

Anyone with even the slightest modern understanding of genetics would tell you that when you mash together two completely different genomes, what you get isn't a "half dragon, half human". What you get is a cell that usually dies before its first mitosis, and even if it somehow matures, it's a horribly deformed, crippled thing. Okay, so magic may "stabilize the genome", but you've just gone right back to the A Wizard Did It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt) explanation.

You cannot reconcile genetics with D&D without invoking magic, and the very instant you introduce magic into a scientific system, you throw any hope of credibility or consistency out the window.

Think this way the magic undermines the dragon genes so the result is very human. Magic is by the way a law of physics in this world (even without a law like this we can create ground elements) that work like the others (like aerodynamics "breaks" the law of gravity)just easier to use

[hamishspence]

Half-dragons are Dragons with mammalian traits (since they always have the Dragon type) Draconic creatures (assuming the base was a mammal) are Mammals with draconic traits.

Dragons can breed with anything except the non-living- plants and oozes included. Why is not explained.

I find it somehow hard to imagine a dragon going up to a shambling mound ans saying- "Ooh, you are one attractive plant. Lets have a relationship."

[Mina Kobold]

Half-dragons are Dragons with mammalian traits (since they always have the Dragon type) Draconic creatures (assuming the base was a mammal) are Mammals with draconic traits.

Dragons can breed with anything except the non-living- plants and oozes included. Why is not explained.
I find it somehow hard to imagine a dragon going up to a shambling mound ans saying- "Ooh, you are one attractive plant. Lets have a relationship."

Well non-living is because that is a paradox (half-living how a heck could that be) plants because they have almost opposite way of doing stuff like moving, breathing, reproduving and so on. oozes well a magicaly created piece of acid pudding, you really think anything (maybe not even themself) can breed with them (I think of giant bacteria, you know eating till big enough to split)

[hamishspence]

by rules, Living is everything except Constructs and Undead. Including Living Constucts, because they are, well, Living.

I'm not sure where Oozes originate- some in Fiend Folio are a lot like bloodsucking jellyfish.

It does have to be corporeal though- even dragons can't hybridize with an incorporeal, living creature (they exist but are rare)

[jamroar]

Dragons can breed with anything except the non-living- plants and oozes included. Why is not explained.


Magical transgenic/twisted fusion/transmutation experiments? Not all half-breeds are born that way. Take the half-golem template, or the half-fiend St. Kargoth for instance. Or those prestige classes that give you a template like Dragon Disciple.

[Sylphy]

I was always taught that all the manuals and guides of DnD (any edition) were just that....GUIDES. Nothing was written in stone, only ink and paper and could be easily changed and adapted to suit whatever the DM desired. So....whatever children Roy and Celia have would be strictly up to the DM (or in this case the writer). Half sylph and half human is plausible, but then again the fact that maybe sylph's don't produce offspring could be worked out too. Anything can make sense with some good old fashioned story telling. I just hope that the number of DnD fanboys out there who have treated all the manuals as if they are the holy bible don't try to tear apart Rich's story too much.

[Fighteer]

Think this way the magic undermines the dragon genes so the result is very human. Magic is by the way a law of physics in this world (even without a law like this we can create ground elements) that work like the others (like aerodynamics "breaks" the law of gravity)just easier to use
I don't think you really understand my point. Even if you create or assume some logical rules of magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA), you're still not working with real biology. So comparisons with genetic theory are not only pointless, but inevitably introduce logical paradoxes when confronted with the actual rules of the game.

Instead of genes, you might as well say that D&D creatures have microscopic gnomes running around inside them making bones and muscles and skin, or that all living beings have little Positive Energy batteries inside them.

I'm not opposed to killing catgirls on general principles, but there's simply no point trying to cram D&D husbandry and procreation rules into a modern biological framework. :smallamused:

[Scarlet Knight]

Ok, geneticists, brain puzzle of the day. In a different comic, there was a character who claimed to be half ogre, half drow, & half human...how can we make this happen?

[hamishspence]

Easy- add the half-ogre template from Dragon Magazine to the half-drow race from Races of Faerun. Voila. Half-drow (half-human) on one side, half-ogre on the other.

(by strict percentage it's 1/4 drow 1/4 human 1/2 ogre, but ruleswise its definitely Half-drow/Half-ogre)

[Kris Strife]

If Celia gets pregnant, we'll see a lot of, hopefully offscreen, puking, Celia's feet and belly getting swollen, Durkon having to perform another wedding, and everyone giving Roy a hard time.

[Aquillion]

Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.What is this strange "genetics" thing you speak of?

Celia is an elemental. There's no particular reason to think that she has cells, never mind genes. The bizarre thing is that she can breed with Roy at all -- why would an elemental spirit even be capable of bearing children?

[Caleniel]

Ok, geneticists, brain puzzle of the day. In a different comic, there was a character who claimed to be half ogre, half drow, & half human...how can we make this happen?

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

I never could resist brain puzzles!

I can give you a genetics solution to this. But a disclaimer first: Since I think we all agreed above that genetics makes absolutely no sense in the D&D world, my solution will NOT make sense. If you want a sensible answer, I think the posters above did a fine job of that. But now for the genetics answer...

First, I assume that the character you refer to is in fact ONE character, and not one-and-a-half character. We therefore have to restate his composition as thirds, not halves. So, he claims to be 1/3 human, 1/3 ogre and 1/3 drow.

This is difficult, since mendelian genetics quickly tell us that all parental contributions contribute with exactly 1/2 of a whole genome. Luckily, we have population genetics which allow us to use approximations rather than exact numbers!

So, you take an uninhabited island. Six survivors of shipwrecks arrive: A human brother and sister, an ogre brother and sister, and a drow brother and sister. Romance ensues, to the extent that the following pairings arise: HxO, DxO, HxD. Each pairing produces exactly two offspring, one of each gender. We now have the next generation:
male and female HO, DO and HD.

And... this is where it gets a bit morally dubious at least. But we need to assume that each male on the island mates with each (non-sibling) female exactly twice, resulting in exactly one offspring of each gender. And the next generation, the same thing happens. If you extrapolate long enough, and exclude sib matings, all individuals will end up with _approximately_ one third of their genome from each of the original founder races! The more generations you allow, the more they will approach 1/3.

You need the assumption that everyone gets exactly the same number of offspring though, otherwise it messes things up.

I doubt this scenario happens a lot though. :smallsmile:

[Edhelras]

Ok, geneticists, brain puzzle of the day. In a different comic, there was a character who claimed to be half ogre, half drow, & half human...how can we make this happen?

First off, I think we have to agree that RL genetics is absolutely useless in DnD.
Which is perhaps somewhat of a paradox, since, if you read the sourcebooks (for instance, Frostburn that I'm reading now), a great effort is made to make the world of DnD "realistic" in terms of modern nature science. Like, the altitudes at which permanent snow caps appear, related to latitude etc. So there's a fascinating mix of sound nature science and crazy "wizard did it" stuff. Which is of course why I like it so much!

If you try to take a genetics view on your puzzle, the main mistake one easily does is (again) to think that race A pluss race B (or species, if you allow inter-species mating) produces offspring that is half A/half B.

Everybody with their own child can attest that the kid isn't half you/half your wife. So the term "half-breed", which is even used in RL (like in my childhood cowboy novels, where the "half-breed" was always a mix of Spanish and black, and always a criminal, and a stupid one too! LOL, to think that we allow kids to read such stuff...) this term is basically wrong.
At least when talking about the feature of the offspring: It's neither half this or half that; it has a complex set of genes, features, and a lot of them cannot be assigned to be either "paternal" or "maternal" simply because they're shared between the individuals.
On the other hand, it's beyond doubt that if you look at the source of the offspring's genes, they come almost exactly half from the mother (or the mother's race/species) and the other half from the father (or his race/species) - mitochondrial DNA excepted.

So my point is: The term "half-breed" does not say anything about the features of the creature you're examining, it only refers to the parents. And even that at an disadvantage; most often, the parents themselves will not be entirely pure blood (in fact, no one is, and given the complexity of many DnD societies, you really should expect quite a lot of the commoners there to have the blood of other races in their veins. You know, once an Elf and a human marries and produces say 3 children, the mixed blood will only continue to multiply as these children gets their own offspring, and so on. So if in a human society, you would after say 3 generations get a lot of people who are no longer pure human, but have some elven genes in their genetici makeup).

The in-game effect of this should be to accept quite a variety of features in the so-called half-breeds. One example, perhaps, is that (relatively) beautiful half-orc girl in the R.A.Salvatore novel, Road of the Patriarch. She seemed perhaps unbelievable, being too pretty to be a half-orc, but following my argument above, it would in fact be conceiveable with an (almost) pretty half-orc girl.

It could too explain how Elan could feel at least some attraction to Therkla, even he is a human and she was a half-orc. Perhaps she was a half-orc with a genetic makeup dominated by human traits.

[Caleniel]

If you try to take a genetics view on your puzzle, the main mistake one easily does is (again) to think that race A pluss race B (or species, if you allow inter-species mating) produces offspring that is half A/half B.


Awwww, but Edhelras! You didn't try to SOLVE the brain puzzle! (Apart from stating that it's absurd, but we knew that already... :smallwink:)

I think what we have here is the contrast in approach between molecular and population genetics. You're really good at nailing specific processes, but we're better with numbers! :smallbiggrin:

That's guessing. I don't know that you are a molecular geneticist. You stated that you were a "half-geneticist". Other half - also geneticist? :smallsmile:

[Sereg]

Of course Edhelras is perfectly correct in saying that if these situations realy did happen, eventually everyone would be part everything else.

EDIT: Oh, and population genetics is what I'm specialising in, but I don't feel like doing the Maths right now especially when I'm trying to finish my report.

[hamishspence]

Once again, if you follow MM2, Celia is not an elemental, she is an outsider. Outsiders are living creatures, by D&D rules, and can hybridize with other living creatures.

[Mina Kobold]

What about this: Magic exist here but maybe it can be explained by magic being a ground element able to transform and change other ground elements and therefore it since it's what sylph genes are made of can change those genes to fit the human ones and the offspring would have half the sylph magic powers and abbilities. With the explanaition from Eragon about magic once being wild (as in wild mage) and hard to control but was used to change itself so it could be controlled by a specific language. This could also explain material components since it maybe is easier to change specific things into specific other things. The energy our body use to live and heal itself that it get from turning food into this energy might be "positive" energy that magic can create but isn't like other magic because it creates an energy instead of ground element and need some extra that the gods can give. Neative energy then I can't figure out, any ideas? The thing about the not pureblood can be explained with that when the descendant is so far from the original that the magic simply ain't enough to change it to fit and simply make the human genes in the gene pool take over (but it will have higher chance of getting sorcerous powers). I accept crittic I'm only 14 but I hope you'll help me improve this (you guys are real genetics and I respect you for that).

[dps]

Ok, geneticists, brain puzzle of the day. In a different comic, there was a character who claimed to be half ogre, half drow, & half human...how can we make this happen?

Give said character really BAD math skills.

[hamishspence]

I'm not- I'm physicist- D&D occasionally makes me smirk but I rather like its attempts anywaay- abstract rules can be fun.

Outsiders have Something besides their normal living flesh- essence of good, evil, law, chaos, the magical elements, or just Magic In General, which is why most don't need to eat or sleep unless native to Material Plane. They all need to breathe though.

The math joke has been done- 4 Half templates stacked on half-elf or half orc, so-

Half human, half elf, half troll, half fey, half-fiend, half-dragon, which makes 3 very mixed up creatures.

Or, 5 Half-templates stacked on Human.

[Edhelras]

Awwww, but Edhelras! You didn't try to SOLVE the brain puzzle! (Apart from stating that it's absurd, but we knew that already... :smallwink:)

I think what we have here is the contrast in approach between molecular and population genetics. You're really good at nailing specific processes, but we're better with numbers! :smallbiggrin:

That's guessing. I don't know that you are a molecular geneticist. You stated that you were a "half-geneticist". Other half - also geneticist? :smallsmile:

:smallsmile:

In fact, I'm only a clinical physician whose field of expertise is genetic disorders. So my take on this is mainly a pragmatic one...

I didn't want to ruin the fun... But my own best-developed DnD character is a half-elven girl (bardess) from Silverymoon. Even though she's got all the half-elven traits from the PHB/FRCS, she's definitely not half-this/half-that in a simple mathematical mendelian way. Being brought up by her human mother alone, she's mostly human but with some striking elven features, like her ears, her senses, and, I hope, her slightly increased longevity. Then she worships Sehanine Moonbow, mostly as part of a longing or curiosity for her elven father, whom she never met. She's got some strange magical abilities, and then she's got a talent for singing that seems superhuman, it has always been attributed to her "elven heritage" by her friends.

So, my point is, a strict half-this half-that, I 1) don't find it very believable and 2) don't find it very fun or intriguing. My view on the fantasy genetics would allow both certain traits to be clearly dominant in certain races or species, but would still allow half-breeds to seemingly lean towards the one or the other of their parental lines, much influenced by environment/culture.

As for Roy and Celia - I said before I'd be surprised if the kid got usable wings. As for whether the child would be any interested in flying or aerial stuff at all, that would depend much on who was raising it - Roy in a human, non-flying world, or Celia. Would Celia utilize her flying much if she married Roy, for example? But even if the kid was raised by humans alone, it might display, at some time, an unexplicable longing towards the skies, an interest in birds, or some other aspect that would point to his half-sylph heritage. Which would make him a more interesting figure for his player. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Air genasi, the normal offspring of sylph-human or djinni-human crosses in Faerun, can Levitate once per day, which, while not flying, is interesting half-way point. Its called Mingle with Wind. Affinity with all air spells, as well.

The four spell like abilites genasi can have, depending on element, are called Mingle with Wind, Merge with Stone, Reach to the Blaze, and Call to the Wave.

[Mina Kobold]

:smallsmile:

In fact, I'm only a clinical physician whose field of expertise is genetic disorders. So my take on this is mainly a pragmatic one...

I didn't want to ruin the fun... But my own best-developed DnD character is a half-elven girl (bardess) from Silverymoon. Even though she's got all the half-elven traits from the PHB/FRCS, she's definitely not half-this/half-that in a simple mathematical mendelian way. Being brought up by her human mother alone, she's mostly human but with some striking elven features, like her ears, her senses, and, I hope, her slightly increased longevity. Then she worships Sehanine Moonbow, mostly as part of a longing or curiosity for her elven father, whom she never met. She's got some strange magical abilities, and then she's got a talent for singing that seems superhuman, it has always been attributed to her "elven heritage" by her friends.

So, my point is, a strict half-this half-that, I 1) don't find it very believable and 2) don't find it very fun or intriguing. My view on the fantasy genetics would allow both certain traits to be clearly dominant in certain races or species, but would still allow half-breeds to seemingly lean towards the one or the other of their parental lines, much influenced by environment/culture.

As for Roy and Celia - I said before I'd be surprised if the kid got usable wings. As for whether the child would be any interested in flying or aerial stuff at all, that would depend much on who was raising it - Roy in a human, non-flying world, or Celia. Would Celia utilize her flying much if she married Roy, for example? But even if the kid was raised by humans alone, it might display, at some time, an unexplicable longing towards the skies, an interest in birds, or some other aspect that would point to his half-sylph heritage. Which would make him a more interesting figure for his player. :smallsmile:

well maybe the "half" thing is just to indicate the parents. Maybe the ones in the PHB is just the most typical one (like there only are one of each other race even through there just with elves are: High elf wood elf and drow) could this work for you:smile:

[hamishspence]

Less than half has occurred- the least Drowish half-drow in Shining south is described as a Half-drow cleric but actually has only 1/32 drow blood and looks much more like a human than a drow.

[David Argall]

Ok, geneticists, brain puzzle of the day. In a different comic, there was a character who claimed to be half ogre, half drow, & half human...how can we make this happen?

a] Well, we start with this real wild party...

b] Fantasy does not limit one to one mother or one father. That is the normal pattern, but it is not an unusual way to explain why the hero is so superior by having him have two or more fathers. [Multi-mothers are rather rarer, but not unknown.]

c] Math does not allow 1/2 units to become 1/3 in finite time. But we are not limited to standard genetics. One idea is to regard the womb as a soup bowl, which allows any number to put in ingredients.

[hamishspence]

Half troll half-human married half-fey half human. Offspring is half-troll, half-fey, half human

Half-fiend half-human married half-dragon-half-human
Offspring is half-fiend, half-dragon, half-human

The two hybrids marry each other-

result is half-troll, half-fey, half-fiend, half-dragon, half-human.

Strictly since some of the bloodline has been diluted, it ought to be a feytouched draconic tiefling with Troll Bloodline trait from Unearthed Arcana. But what the hey.

EDIT: Or, feytouched draconic Troll Bloodline tiefling is what happens when the first being marries a human :smallbiggrin:

[Scarlet Knight]

a] Well, we start with this real wild party...



Funny, since the character's reply to his breeding being impossible was " Ogres & Drow are ok with polygamy..."

[Ponce]

This has nothing to do with genetics. There is a 100% chance the most plot-conductive outcome will occur. Fact.