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metalbear
2008-10-27, 11:43 PM
I am currently Dming for a group of six players. They are currently level two, but are about to reach level three, and should do so during our next session. I am faced with a problem, the way CR is plotted out in the MM and DMG the party is 4 PCs.
I was wondering how I should modify the encounters that the party should face to reflect their greater numbers. Also, I am having trouble trying to understand how the CR of an encounter is modified by adding additional creature. For example, does having a pair of bugbears make it a CR4 encounter, or does it make it a CR3?
Thanks in advance, Metalbear

golentan
2008-10-27, 11:46 PM
Whoa, deja vu. Scroll down the main page a little to the thread "Effective Character Levels"

You're welcome, however useless I was.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 01:12 AM
Use this. (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) Also note that more smaller enemies are usually better with a large party than one big one(which can drop SLAs and the like that there is no defense for at the level).

AslanCross
2008-10-28, 03:28 AM
Whatever the case, do NOT have the PCs fight a single humanoid enemy, even if he has up to 5 levels on the PCs. The single humanoid, unless a full caster, will likely get introduced intimately to the pavement rather quickly. I once had a Lv 11 Warblade fight a 6th-level party of 5 PCs.
She almost died in 3 turns (I gave her a lot of ways to escape since she's a recurring villain).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-28, 03:38 AM
The DMG table is pretty simple - it's just that the first steps are ambiguous. A CR 5 monster can be EL 4 to 6. Usually it's 5, though. Two CR 5s are EL 7, and so on (the instructions are in the DMG). ELs can be added up just like CRs are.

For 6 PCs, you want to increase the XP of encounters by half, so if the party is all level 7, then instead of two CR 5s you should use three, and so on. (It'd be so much simpler to just have "encounter XP" tables, like 4E does...)

Like Sstoopidtallkid and AslanCross say, don't use single monsters of a higher CR - it's going to either be a TPK or a cakewalk. Either the monster is plain too powerful, or the sheer number of PCs will overwhelm it. (I wouldn't even use single monsters with 4 PCs, other than dragons and similar creatures that have great control over the encounter.) The "best-case" scenario tends to be that the monster kills a few PCs in the first round it acts, and dies before its next turn.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 03:47 AM
Whatever the case, do NOT have the PCs fight a single humanoid enemy, even if he has up to 5 levels on the PCs. The single humanoid, unless a full caster, will likely get introduced intimately to the pavement rather quickly. It will also probably kill a few before death. I'm surprised the Warblade wasn't a near-TPK. 2d6(greatsword)+6d6(Elder Mountain Hammer)+1d6(Punishing Stance)+1d6(weapon enhancement)+1(enhancement bonus)+6(str) means 42 damage(average health for d8HD w/+2 con), followed by a second round through WRT, means either one or 2 party members are dead or unconscious in the first round. Mobs, not Dragons, are key.

Eldariel
2008-10-28, 05:45 AM
followed by a second round through WRT

I don't think anyone actually uses the RAW interpretion for WRT... Besides, it's an attack roll, it can always miss (not to mention, the Warblade can get Mindraped by any caster winning the initiative as it can't use the Moment of Perfect Mind flat-footed).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 05:48 AM
I don't think anyone actually uses the RAW interpretion for WRT... Besides, it's an attack roll, it can always miss (not to mention, the Warblade can get Mindraped by any caster winning the initiative as it can't use the Moment of Perfect Mind flat-footed).How is it not right to use it that way? At the least it's great for an ally, and using it on yourself is perfectly fine by both RAW and no more powerful unless you're alone. And yes, a Warblade can get crushed by a full-caster easily, but not with a 5-level advantage like in the posted scenario. Most of the 3rd level SoL spells won't hinder him by that point, nevermind the massive saves he'd have. As for missing...11 BAB, minimum of +6 Str, +1 weapon. Not going to miss much.

Eldariel
2008-10-28, 06:03 AM
How is it not right to use it that way? At the least it's great for an ally, and using it on yourself is perfectly fine by both RAW and no more powerful unless you're alone. And yes, a Warblade can get crushed by a full-caster easily, but not with a 5-level advantage like in the posted scenario. Most of the 3rd level SoL spells won't hinder him by that point, nevermind the massive saves he'd have. As for missing...11 BAB, minimum of +6 Str, +1 weapon. Not going to miss much.

1: I just haven't heard of anyone actually allowing using WRT on yourself. I don't claim it's not the right way to use it, it simply has quite a lot of potential for abuse (getting an extra turn for a Swift Action at level 5 is better than anything any straight caster could do - now combine that with Ruby Knight Vindicator).

2: Even a simple Glitterdust would be devastating. Ray of Dizziness, Hold Person, Phantasmal Strangler, etc. can be just brutal. Really, a level 11 Warblade has base Will-save of +3 and probably Cloak of Resistance +3 or so along with maybe Wis 12. That gives them a composite Will-save of +7. A level 5 caster with 20 in the casting stat from the start and +2 item casts level 2 spells DC 18 and level 3 spells at DC 19, and with a large party, casting few such spells means it's quite likely, one of them will be faced with a failed save. Also, something like Ray of Dizziness doesn't even allow save.

3: 11+6+1 = +18. Now, this won't miss often, but AC 24-28 is completely doable by level 5, so there's still something like 25% for the WB missing. Further, it's unlike to have True Seeing on, which means any illusion-based defenses are very efficient, so if he goes after the most dangerous opponents first (the casters), he may just end up missing a lot.

Burley
2008-10-28, 10:42 AM
Whatever the case, do NOT have the PCs fight a single humanoid enemy, even if he has up to 5 levels on the PCs. The single humanoid, unless a full caster, will likely get introduced intimately to the pavement rather quickly. I once had a Lv 11 Warblade fight a 6th-level party of 5 PCs.
She almost died in 3 turns (I gave her a lot of ways to escape since she's a recurring villain).

I hear that! I had the first session of my new campaign last week. My CR7 Pixie Warlock//Rogue was forced to escape (via Flee the Scene) after being grappled in the first round of combat by a first level character, who rolled a natural 20 on the touch attack. I now owe my players almost an entire level in XP...

only1doug
2008-10-28, 11:42 AM
I hear that! I had the first session of my new campaign last week. My CR7 Pixie Warlock//Rogue was forced to escape (via Flee the Scene) after being grappled in the first round of combat by a first level character, who rolled a natural 20 on the touch attack. I now owe my players almost an entire level in XP...

How did the L1 character see the pixie (continuos greater invisibility) to grapple them?

Saph
2008-10-28, 11:48 AM
I am currently Dming for a group of six players. They are currently level two, but are about to reach level three, and should do so during our next session. I am faced with a problem, the way CR is plotted out in the MM and DMG the party is 4 PCs.
I was wondering how I should modify the encounters that the party should face to reflect their greater numbers. Also, I am having trouble trying to understand how the CR of an encounter is modified by adding additional creature. For example, does having a pair of bugbears make it a CR4 encounter, or does it make it a CR3?
Thanks in advance, Metalbear

Simple solution is to increase the number of enemies by 50%. If the party was facing two monsters, make it three.

In general increasing monster numbers by 50% adds one to the CR and doubling their numbers adds two. The easiest way to figure it out, though, is to use the (free!) SRD Encounter Calculator, which can be found here (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm).

- Saph