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koldstare
2008-10-28, 12:17 AM
I am making a character for a game that starts next week. I had asked for help with a gish build, but I couldn't seem to do what I wanted so I thought about playing a pure caster. Thanks to everyone that helped though.

It is semi-gestalt in that you only get your first set of classes gestalt that you can take as long as you want. Here is the build I'm thinking of

Wizard//(Sorcerer or Beguiler) 10/Ultimate Magus 10

This will give me base casting of Wizard 19/Spontaneous Caster 18 with the +4 Spell Power it makes it 23/22
I am leaning more toward Beguiler for the Int synergy.
I was planning on taking Ultimate Magus to level 18 so I can apply metamagic feats up to level 9 spells. The game will be going to extreme high levels quickly so I need to figure out the epic Ultimate Magus soon. If anyone has stated out the epic Ultimate Magus, a link would be awesome. Also, If anyone has any tips for alternate classes/feats/spell selection I would greatly appreciate the input.
Thanks to everyone in advance.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-28, 02:23 AM
Beguiler is definitely the better choice to use with a Wizard/UM due to the shared spellcasting stat. Make him an Illumian (RoD) with the Krau sigil, that will give you +2 caster level but no higher than your character level to both classes, which can be applied before Spell Power for Caster Level 24 in both classes.

I looked at your other thread, and I think that for this particular game you'd be best off picking two base classes that are playable through 20 and work well together, and just stay gestalt through the epic levels. Something like Druid/Monk or Druid/Barbarian would be amazing, a Cloistered Cleric/Psychic Warrior would be great, Archivist/Beguiler, Archivist/Wizard, or Archivist/Psion would also be good. Just about any combination of two decent classes or even one decent class and one mediocre class would be better than multiclassing or prestige classing out of gestalt.

koldstare
2008-10-28, 06:48 AM
I see what you are saying, but I feel the UM would work better here than just two casters. I have a higher combined caster level on both sides and some nifty metamagic tricks.
Thanks, however, for the Illumian tidbit. Definitely going Illumian now.

I will be playing a pure caster now, as all of the other roles have been filled(and I just love casters). Does anyone have any examples of strictly two base caster classes that would be better than the Wizard//Beguiler 10/UM 10
Because as I see it I only gain 2 8th and 3 9th level spells a day and the cloaked casting bit from beguiler. I lose, however, 4 CL from spell power, expanded spell knowledge, which lets me add any school spell to my beguiler list, and the biggie, augmented casting.

I personally think the benefits of UM far outweigh what you would gain going strictly gestalt. If I am in error(and much of the time I am) please correct me.

Note: You also gain (4+INT)*10 skill points for going pure gestalt but I don't really care.

Randomosity
2008-10-28, 08:31 AM
Archivist//Wizard.

Now instead of having a ton of arcane spells (which is really just overkill at 20, when wizard rarely runs out anyway), you now have access to all those wizard/sorc spells and every divine spell in the game. So basically the only spells not immediately castable for you are bard spells, and a few other extraneous base arcane spells, of which only metal wu jen are really of any use. Congratulations, you can basically out-spell the entire world.

koldstare
2008-10-28, 09:07 AM
I thought about Wizard/Archivist and while they are more versitlile they don't really have a schtick. They basically say I cast all spells, deal with it. I don't want to be to overpowered, but I don't want to be overshadowed either. I don't think the latter is much of a risk however as one of the players is a monk convinced that they are powerful. (gestalted with what I can't remember) The whole point of the build I mentioned was to gain the ability to apply any metamagic I know(which will be a lot) to any spell on the fly, which will also increase my versitility.

Aneantir
2008-10-28, 09:23 AM
If you go by gestalt RAW, then you can't actually take ultimate magus as it's a dual progression PRC. If you want spontaneous metamagic in this build, you'd have to take Incantantrix instead, the most metamagic-y class of all.

koldstare
2008-10-28, 09:28 AM
If you go by gestalt RAW, then you can't actually take ultimate magus as it's a dual progression PRC. If you want spontaneous metamagic in this build, you'd have to take Incantantrix instead, the most metamagic-y class of all.

The thing is this isn't RAW, its a special from of gestalt. The DM allready approved UM.

only1doug
2008-10-28, 10:09 AM
Have you considered Wizard//Duskblade 10 /Ultimate Magus X

the Duskblade will bring you some of the gish that you were looking for while still having lots of spells. Duskblade doesn't hit 9th level spells but you can have the 9th level spells on the wizard side.

Both Classes are Int based casters (so less MAD worries), Duskblade adds full BAB and decent hitpoints, some duskblade abilities would work with wizard spells.

Duskblade is a spontaneous caster, and though it doesn't have access to the higher level spells it gets more of the lower level ones, has buff and attack spells, you can fill the wizard side with utility spells.

koldstare
2008-10-28, 10:14 AM
Have you considered Wizard//Duskblade 10 /Ultimate Magus X

the Duskblade will bring you some of the gish that you were looking for while still having lots of spells. Duskblade doesn't hit 9th level spells but you can have the 9th level spells on the wizard side.

Both Classes are Int based casters (so less MAD worries), Duskblade adds full BAB and decent hitpoints, some duskblade abilities would work with wizard spells.

Duskblade is a spontaneous caster, and though it doesn't have access to the higher level spells it gets more of the lower level ones, has buff and attack spells, you can fill the wizard side with utility spells.

That really sounds like a good idea, and will substantially help my BAB. I forget what is the max level of Duskblade spells, I am away from my books at the moment. If they can cast at least 6th level spells I will be able to use most all metas on my wizard side. Also, what level do they get arcane channel(full attack)?

only1doug
2008-10-28, 10:56 AM
That really sounds like a good idea, and will substantially help my BAB. I forget what is the max level of Duskblade spells, I am away from my books at the moment. If they can cast at least 6th level spells I will be able to use most all metas on my wizard side. Also, what level do they get arcane channel(full attack)?

I think they get 6th level casting, i'm also away from my books sadly, not going to have access untill tomorrow evening most likely (as there is a CoC game tonight).

Edit: some salient duskblade features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060905a):

13th level for full channel;
Arcane Channeling: Starting at 3rd level, a duskblade can use a standard action to deliver touch-range spells he knows through his weapon as a melee attack, provided that the spell has a casting time of one standard action or less. A successful attack delivers normal damage from the weapon and delivers the spell as well. Casting a spell this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Starting at 13th level, a duskblade can use this power as part of the full attack action, and the channeled spell affects each target the duskblade hits in melee during that round.

more features in spoiler tags

Quick Cast: Starting at 5th level, a duskblade can cast one spell each day as a swift action, provided that the spell has a casting time of one standard action or less. This power is usable twice a day at 10th level,

Arcane Attunement: Starting at 1st level, a duskblade learns to use dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic as spell-like abilities. You can use these powers a combined total of times each day equal to three plus your Intelligence modifier. These powers don't count against your number of spells known or against the spells you can cast each day.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, a duskblade gains Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Spell Power: Starting at 6th level, a duskblade gains a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a foe's spell resistance after he strikes that foe in combat. The bonus lasts until the encounter ends. At 11th level, the bonus rises to +3. At 18th level, the bonus increases to +4.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 11:00 AM
Duskblades cap out at 5th level spells.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-28, 11:02 AM
I think they get 6th level casting,

They also get a ludicrous amount of spells per day, which synergizes well with Arcane Strike, as well as UM metamagic.

valadil
2008-10-28, 11:37 AM
I prefer Beguiler for this build. Have you considered 20 Beguiler // 10 wiz/10 magus? I realize Beguiler is the lesser of the two casters, but it's capstone ability is huge. I guess this would depend on how well ultimate magus advances your wizardly casting.

Douglas
2008-10-28, 11:43 AM
I prefer Beguiler for this build. Have you considered 20 Beguiler // 10 wiz/10 magus?
The gestalt only lasts as long as he sticks with his two base classes. Any level that includes a class other than those two is not gestalt.

only1doug
2008-10-28, 11:48 AM
I prefer Beguiler for this build. Have you considered 20 Beguiler // 10 wiz/10 magus? I realize Beguiler is the lesser of the two casters, but it's capstone ability is huge. I guess this would depend on how well ultimate magus advances your wizardly casting.

The specific gesalt rules he is using disallow that.

This is a Semi-gestalt, he can only gestalt with the two original classes, as soon as he changes either base class he is only allowed one class from that point onwards.

valadil
2008-10-28, 12:49 PM
The gestalt only lasts as long as he sticks with his two base classes. Any level that includes a class other than those two is not gestalt.

My bad. I have a throbbing headache and it's making me skip lines periodically when I read.

*waits impatiently for excedrin to kick in*

koldstare
2008-10-28, 02:43 PM
I think I have decided on the wizard//beguiler 10/UM 10 route. This is primarily for the greater number of spells I gain as a beguiler. Because you can use a spell slot higher than the level adj of the spell to cast it, and I will have greater ability to use the spells that I do have. If I got arcane channel earlier I might go the duskblade route but alas it cannot be. What about epic UM I had plenty of time to think about it in Cal 1 today.

Here is my take.
Arcane spell power does not increase after 10th level
Expanded Knowledge continues to give a bonus spell known every other level with the maximum level = to 1/2 your UM level
Augmented Casting continues to improve allowing you to affect spells equal to 1/2 your class level

The only thing I really need help with is CL progression and bonus feats. I don't know if it should be both classes increase at all levels indefinitely or to put levels that don't increase your higher level. There is no clear pattern of how it increases, 1,4,7 if there were another at 10 it would be easy, just assign every third level only increases one or the other, but there isn't. I was thinking of doing that anyway, and giving a bonus feat every 3-4 levels chose able from metamagic, Item Creation, or any of the wizard epic bonus feats. What is everyones take on this, and again thanks to everyone that has been helping me out.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-28, 09:52 PM
Epic Ultimate Magus would probably have the same epic spellcasting progression of Mystic Theurge: +1 spellcasting to a single class at every level, probably alternating between the two.

UM grants bonus feats at 5 and 9, which would probably mean that you'll get another bonus feat at every 4th level after 9th (13, 17, 21, 25, etc.).

Arcane Spell Power goes by a regular progression, so it should continue to increase every third level after 1st (4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, etc.). This would mostly be to keep your caster level up considering the now 1/2 casting progression for both your classes. Remember you can take Practiced Spellcaster for both your classes, and even Enhanced Power Sigils to increase Krau's bonus to +3, so your caster level could continue increasing higher than your level until you hit level 31, after which it would begin dropping as your 1/2 spellcasting progression in each class catches up with you. I'd suggest taking those three feats before level 20 so you won't be wasting an epic feat on any of them, if you expect the game to advance that high.

Augmented Casting would indeed be based off half your class level in the epic levels.



I think you're giving too much credit to Augmented Casting. You can't use it to make an Enervation nova (Split Ray, Twinned, Repeat, Maximized) because you can't use any other metamagic feats on the same spell, and you can't use it more than once on a single spell. Spells that deal HP damage are completely worthless at level 20+, just like they're completely worthless at levels 1-19. Read up about what a Wizard's true role should be (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085) in a party, and realize that Augmented Casting is not going to be of any help in accomplishing that task. Even a gestalt Wizard 20/ Fighter 20 would be better off, as you would have tons of HP, good BAB and Fort save, you could use the Fighter variant in CM to cast in armor, and you can pick Fighter feats to be an amazing archer in addition to filling the party's Wizard role.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-29, 10:22 AM
Can Wizard // Shadowcaster qualify for Ultimate Magus?

Because cuold be good use shadowcaster to gather a lot of metamagic feats switching path the more you can, using them to have the right wizard spell at the right time.

Moonshadow
2008-10-29, 10:24 AM
Maybe take 1 level in Ranger for Favoured Enemy: The Devourer? :smallbiggrin:

only1doug
2008-10-29, 11:11 AM
I think I have decided on the wizard//beguiler 10/UM 10 route. This is primarily for the greater number of spells I gain as a beguiler. Because you can use a spell slot higher than the level adj of the spell to cast it, and I will have greater ability to use the spells that I do have. If I got arcane channel earlier I might go the duskblade route but alas it cannot be. What about epic UM I had plenty of time to think about it in Cal 1 today.

Here is my take.
Arcane spell power does not increase after 10th level
Expanded Knowledge continues to give a bonus spell known every other level with the maximum level = to 1/2 your UM level
Augmented Casting continues to improve allowing you to affect spells equal to 1/2 your class level

The only thing I really need help with is CL progression and bonus feats. I don't know if it should be both classes increase at all levels indefinitely or to put levels that don't increase your higher level. There is no clear pattern of how it increases, 1,4,7 if there were another at 10 it would be easy, just assign every third level only increases one or the other, but there isn't. I was thinking of doing that anyway, and giving a bonus feat every 3-4 levels chose able from metamagic, Item Creation, or any of the wizard epic bonus feats. What is everyones take on this, and again thanks to everyone that has been helping me out.

Can i suggest Wizard//Duskblade 13/UM7 (then 3 more levels of UM into epic) this gives you completed caster progression in both spellcasting classes before UM hits epic levels, gives you the full arcane channel from duskblade and gives you 3 levels to work out epic UM progression.

I'd be tempted to ditch UM after the 10th level, go with spellthief/master spellthief feat and you get another 20 levels of caster level increase while actually gaining some benefits as well

Gnosis
2010-03-29, 04:31 AM
{Scrubbed}

SilverStar
2010-03-29, 08:37 AM
Here is my take.
Arcane spell power does not increase after 10th level
Expanded Knowledge continues to give a bonus spell known every other level with the maximum level = to 1/2 your UM level
Augmented Casting continues to improve allowing you to affect spells equal to 1/2 your class level

The only thing I really need help with is CL progression and bonus feats. I don't know if it should be both classes increase at all levels indefinitely or to put levels that don't increase your higher level. There is no clear pattern of how it increases, 1,4,7 if there were another at 10 it would be easy, just assign every third level only increases one or the other, but there isn't. I was thinking of doing that anyway, and giving a bonus feat every 3-4 levels chose able from metamagic, Item Creation, or any of the wizard epic bonus feats. What is everyones take on this, and again thanks to everyone that has been helping me out.

When we had an epic UM in a campaign (**shudders**) we used the following progression:

Arcane Spell Power does not increase after 10h level. Ever. The rationale behind this is the fact that in the class feature's description, it stops. It contains no wording such as "and every Xth level thereafter".

Expanded Knowledge increases as noted in the class description.

Augmented Casting continues as noted in class description (and therefore there is no point in growing past 18th level UM, as you can't augment a metamagic'd spell anyway....) Note that Improved Heighten Spell is awesome for the UM.

Bonus metamagic/item creation feats were given at every 4th level (mainly because class features continue to grow rather well into the epics) and caster progression was as Mystic Theurge's epic progression.

As for the enervation nova, an incantatrix's cooperative metamagic gets around augmented casting's restriction quite nicely. A Heightened to 18th level Wail of the Banshee isn't too shabby either. :smallbiggrin:

Roland St. Jude
2010-03-29, 08:42 AM
{Scrubbed}

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't resurrect old threads.