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View Full Version : [3.5] Help me make a druid.



Talya
2008-10-28, 10:30 AM
This is a core druid for class features --so normal wildshape and animal companion-- although feats and races are open to almost any WotC source.

I'm debating Whisper Gnome or Uldra (Frostburn - the level adjustment looks almost worth it there). Any other suggestions?

It's a custom setting, core classes only (at least at first. PRCs will be varied, apparently), races, feats and spells very flexible (including FR and Eberron sources). We are being given an insane 48 point buy.

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 10:35 AM
Well, the standard druid setup is Natural Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration -> Augment Summoning, season to taste because at this point who cares? I forget whether the Eberron-specific druid feats are any good. Greenbound Summoning, isn't that the one?

...Are you looking for fun options, strong options, or deliberately handicapping options?

streakster
2008-10-28, 10:36 AM
So wait - you said "core for class features" - I take it this just rules out variants? Because if "feats and races are open to almost any WotC source", and you have Frostburn already...

Why don't you try Frozen Wild Shape? Everyone loves a 12-headed Cryohydra!

Also fun would be Aberrant Wild Shape.

As for races, if you go heavy on the wildshaping, Shifter is always fun...

And, of course, take natural spell.

Vortling
2008-10-28, 10:37 AM
Give that you're playing a druid we need to know what you want to do? Do you want to summon? Shapeshift? Mounted combat? Pick a specialty to narrow it down please.

wadledo
2008-10-28, 10:42 AM
Also, unless you're going shifter, there are not that many PrC's that are worth you time.
Some stuff from CChampion(which I do not have), but otherwise, straight druid.
Some focus would be nice, though you seem to want to go small sized(Uldra is small, right?).

Talya
2008-10-28, 10:58 AM
I'm sorry. Assume for a moment I'm not going PrCs.

I've never actually played a druid. I don't tend to enjoy prepared spellcaster types at all, but druid has enough other bags of tricks that I can probably get away with it.

I am curious about race choices (I get the impression, due to the peculiarities of wildshape, +con bonuses and mental ability scores are paramount, while strength and dex are irrelevant)...specifically whether Uldra might be worth the level adjustment. (I'm leaning toward "no" in this case, simply due to the insanely high point buy devaluing the +2 con/wis a bit...and the huge list of druid class features held back by the point buy.)

I also wanted to know about feat choices, but I liked the Augment Summoning choice.

I love animal companions, I'm thinking Natural Bond is going to be needed later as well, so I can pick a higher level companion without penalty.

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 11:04 AM
I am curious about race choices (I get the impression, due to the peculiarities of wildshape, +con bonuses and mental ability scores are paramount, while strength and dex are irrelevant)

Pretty much, yeah.

I would also say that, since druids don't have many useful feats, the usual advice of "human is always good" may not apply so strongly. Value the bonus feat a little less than you usually would when weighing it against a Con or Wis bonus or the like.


...specifically whether Uldra might be worth the level adjustment.

I'm pretty sure druids need to avoid LA like the plague, more so than most full casters at least, since not only casting but animal companion and wild shape advancement will all be retarded by it.


I also wanted to know about feat choices, but I liked the Augment Summoning choice.

It's just standard advice that I've heard around. Its usefulness will depend on how much bookkeeping you want to saddle yourself with by going the packmaster route. I think some other good feats may have it as a prerequisite, though, possibly including the Eberron ones I'm vaguely recalling.


I love animal companions, I'm thinking Natural Bond is going to be needed later as well, so I can pick a higher level companion without penalty.

Yeah, nothing quite like two fleshrakers running around with buffs up the wazoo to mess up your opponents' day.

Oh yeah, which I should mention. Fleshrakers, MM3, hilariously good for their level. Use them only if you think the biggest, heaviest book your DM has to hand won't hurt that much when he whacks you over the head with it, though.

wadledo
2008-10-28, 11:10 AM
@^ What he said.

So, three feats you gotta have:
Natural Spell
Augment Summoning
Natural Bond

All good choices.
Augment Summoning is a decent first level choice, then Natural Bond at third(so you can upgrade your companion), though you may want to take Natural Spell
so you don't have to go a level without doing anything in wildshape(aside from eviserating things in raptor form).
Congradulations, you're now the equivelent of god on the battlefield.

Saph
2008-10-28, 11:14 AM
Ah, druids. My favourite subject. :)

Feats, Class, and your Pet Doggy

The 'general-purpose' Core Druid uses Spell Focus (Conjuration) -> Augment Summoning and Natural Spell. That gives you powerful summons and also lets you fight on the front line as a melee caster. Note: Make sure to come to the game with the (augmented) stats of anything you're going to summon! Looking the creature up in the Monster Manual every time you do a summon slows the game down terribly. I've actually got a Word file with Augmented Summon stats for all creatures up to SNA V - I can send it to you if you'd like.

For animal companion, pick your favourite creature and go with it. I went for a dog because I like dogs, but there are lots of good choices. If you're planning to use your companion in fights and want to keep it alive, I highly recommend the Companion Spellbond feat from PHB II, allowing you to share spells with your animal companion out to 30 feet. It makes a big difference.

As mentioned, PrCs aren't generally worth bothering with unless you're going for a theme druid.

Stats and Scores

Jeez, 48 point buy really is ridiculous. I guess I'd go for something like:

Strength: 10
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 14

Speaking from personal experience, Str and Dex will become pretty much irrelevant from 8th-level onwards. You need a high Con for HP (your wild shape forms have mediocre AC), druids have a great skill list so you might as well jack your Int, and you can get a good Cha too, because, well, why not? If you want to min-max every tiny bit, drop Str and Dex to 8 and make your mental stats even more ridiculous. (Not recommended if you're starting at levels 1-3, however).

Race is completely up to you. Uldras I don't think are a great choice, because of the LA, but it's not like you're going to have any power shortages anyway. My personal favourite is Human, because everyone loves more feats and skills.

For skills, max out Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Spellcraft, Listen, and Spot. If you're a human, you've still got 2 skills left, so spread your remaining points between Handle Animal, Heal, and Diplomacy. Don't bother with Ride or Swim unless that's part of your theme.

Once you get Wild Shape, make sure to work out your Wild Shaped stats ahead of time. I keep my two or three favourite Wild Shape forms as a statblock on one of the pages of my character sheet, so that I can just flip to it whenever I'm shifted. Remember that most of your stats will change in Wild Shape form - attacks, AC, and initiative, obviously, but even stuff like your saves and your skills (your Dex and Con scores will be different). The best way to avoid slowing down the game is to write out your altered statblock ahead of time.

Spell Power

Here's a short list of my favourite spells:

All levels: Summon Nature's Ally

1st - Lesser Vigour (SPC), Produce Flame, Cure Light (cast shared while in combat, use Vigour or wands for healing outside it)
2nd - Barkskin, Resist Energy (both better at higher CLs), Spider Climb (don't forget to share it!), Lesser Restoration
3rd - Mass Resist Energy (SPC), Bite of the Werewolf (SPC), Stone Shape, Water Breathing
4th - Bite of the Wereboar (SPC), Heart of Earth (CM), Freedom Movement, Sheltered Vitality (against the nastier undead)
5th - Bite of the Weretiger (SPC), Death Ward, Stoneskin (share!), Wall of Thorns
6th - Bite of the Carebear aka Bite of the Werebear aka You're All Gonna Die (SPC), Superior Resistance (SPC)

Cheese to be Avoided

Fleshrakers (MM3) - Don't use them, either as Wildshape forms or as an animal companion. They're ridiculously overpowered, as to be expected from a creature that can charge, pounce, trip, grapple, pin, and poison all in the same round. Avoid.
Venomfire - Stupidly broken spell. Don't use it, and don't even bring it up if possible.

- Saph

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 11:18 AM
Augment Summoning is a decent first level choice, then Natural Bond at third(so you can upgrade your companion), though you may want to take Natural Spell
so you don't have to go a level without doing anything in wildshape(aside from eviserating things in raptor form).

You can't take Natural Spell until you have wildshape, so level 6 at the earliest. Augment Summoning requires Spell Focus (Conjuration) (what, did you think I just thought that was a good feat or something? :smalltongue:).

So assuming non-human go with SF (C) at first level, Augment Summoning at third, Natural Spell at sixth, Natural Bond at ninth... Bump Augment down to first and squeeze Natural Bond in at third if you get a first-level bonus feat, or use flaws.

For stats I'd suggest 18s in wisdom and constitution, 14s in intelligence and dexterity, and 12 in charisma leaving an eight in strength (unless I've screwed up the math). That's at a base of course. Gives you six (seven if human) skills to play around with, and some (like Handle Animal) don't have to be maxed for your entire career. You might swap dex and cha if you don't plan to be in human form very often; diplomacy is a class skill and wild empathy, handle animal etc. all run off of charisma so it's not bad to have a bonus there.

Equipment doesn't matter much unless you can get wilding clasps from the MIC.

Saph
2008-10-28, 11:24 AM
Kamikasei, good advice, but a couple of corrections. :)

Druids do in fact have plenty of good feats, so Human is actually a perfectly good choice (the best choice, IMO). Spell Focus/Augment Summoning, Companion Spellbond, and Natural Spell will fill out a human's feat allowance up to level 6. After that there are goodies like Minor Shapeshift (CM), Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon), Multiattack/Improved Multiattack, and even Track if your party doesn't have a ranger.

Natural Bond, however, is unfortunately not a good feat choice for Druids, as it doesn't cancel out the level penalty for a more powerful companion - I don't remember the exact rules explanation, but I'm 95% sure it doesn't work. Natural Bond only works with Rangers, or with a multiclass Druid. For a single-class Druid, I recommend Companion Spellbond instead.

- Saph

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 11:28 AM
Druids do in fact have plenty of good feats

Well, you've named them so you must be right. I may have been thinking "...don't have many good feats in core."


Natural Bond, however, is unfortunately not a good feat choice for Druids, as it doesn't cancel out the level penalty for a more powerful companion

Thanks, I suspected this was so but wasn't sure. It certainly smelt cheesy enough to be suspect but, c'mon, we're talking druids. My sense of smell has become pretty unreliable as a guide.

Proven_Paradox
2008-10-28, 12:59 PM
If you want to do more party buffing than turning-into-a-bear-and-eating-the-enemy's-face (or, if you want to buff yourself and then do that) see if you can get your DM to approve Ability Enhancer (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ability_Enhancer,all). Excellent for the standard <animal>'s <attribute> spells. There's also a spell in PHBII (I think) called animalistic power that improves strength, con, and dex by two--as I read that feat, it would double the effect of that spell. It's a bit less bookwork than summoning, and spell focus (transmutation) will make many of your high level save-or-suck spells more useful.

Darrin
2008-10-28, 01:13 PM
You can't take Natural Spell until you have wildshape, so level 6 at the earliest. Augment Summoning requires Spell Focus (Conjuration) (what, did you think I just thought that was a good feat or something? :smalltongue:).


You can skip Spell Focus: Conjuration (which is virtually useless to you) with the Planar Touchstone feat. If you can, take the Planar substitution level at Druid 4th to put some ranks in Knowledge: the Planes. You need 8 ranks, this should get you halfway there. You can take another Planar substitution level at Druid 9th, or just spend cross-class to pick it up earlier (although your 6th level feat is almost always Natural Spell). Link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook, p. 166), which gives you a cleric domain power of your choice. Cult of the Dragon Below (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 106) gives you Augment Summoning as a bonus feat.

Race: Lesser Aasimar (+2 Wis, +2 Cha, Player's Guide to Faerun p. 191) is very nice if available. Otherwise, try Buommon (+2 Wis, -2 Cha, Planar Handbook p. 8), and add Dragonborn of Bahumat (+2 Con, -2 Dex, Races of the Dragon p. 8) to remove the annoying speech impediment.

Spells: Start with Cloudburst to create rain shower conditions. This upgrades the damage on Call Lightning to 3d10 (only while outside, though). For metamagic, start with Extend Spell for Creeping Cold, Heat Metal, and the various Vigor spells. Add Sculpt Spell to change your Call Lightning strikes from vertical lines into four 10' cubes or a 40' cone. Sandblast, Flaming Sphere or Numbing Sphere (Frostburn) are also good candidates for Sculpt Spell, as well as a more precise Entangle (if enemies are too close/intermingled for the usual burst). Also, take a look at Conjure Ice Beast (Frostburn), in particular using the Engulf special ability with the Large and Monstrous Centipedes. I've heard that Blinding Spittle (ranged touch attack, no save) is also a heckuva spell.

Feats: My recommendation would be 1) Extend Spell 3) Sculpt Spell 6) Natural Spell 9) Planar Touchstone. After that, look for some way to knock that +1 level adjustment off of your extended/sculpted spells. I'd probably go Incarnum (Midnight Metamagic + Improved Essentia Capacity + Bonus Essentia), but then I've been on this Incarnum kick for a while.

Heliomance
2008-10-28, 01:13 PM
Isn't the Planar Shephard PrC considered to be even more disgusting than straight druid?

Dr Bwaa
2008-10-28, 01:19 PM
Am I crazy or, on the topic of the very end of Saph's post, is the spell Miasma (SPC, level 6 iirc, or maybe even 4???) something that ought to be included in the Overwhelming Cheese section? IIRC, it's basically "toxic gas fills the target's mouth. If they breathe, they die (no save). The gas persists 5 rounds/level.

...So, even as a level 4 spell, that's a minimum of 35 rounds. you can hold your breath one round per point of CON, and then you make checks vs suffocation, and meanwhile you can't take any actions (so both fleshrakers are now raking your flesh). Conclusion: Miasma, unless I'm missing something is a No-Save-Just-Die, at level six. :smalleek:

@^
Never again put those two words in that order in my presence, please *shudder*

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 01:24 PM
Isn't the Planar Shephard PrC considered to be even more disgusting than straight druid?

Yes, but it's not what Darrin is recommending.

Talya
2008-10-28, 01:24 PM
Natural Bond, however, is unfortunately not a good feat choice for Druids, as it doesn't cancel out the level penalty for a more powerful companion - I don't remember the exact rules explanation, but I'm 95% sure it doesn't work. Natural Bond only works with Rangers, or with a multiclass Druid. For a single-class Druid, I recommend Companion Spellbond instead.

- Saph


I seem to recall it being explicitly stated that it did cancel out the level penalty. The rationale as explained by WotC was that natural bond can only increase your druid level for AC purposes to the same amount as your hit die, but higher level companions impose a penalty on your druid level for animal companion purposes, so natural bond can compensate for it.

If you know of any official rulings on that either way, let me know.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 01:24 PM
Another good call, if you're going summoner, is to somehow nab the Summon domain (via Contemplative is my usual way, but there are other methods), and take the Imbued Summoning feat.

The feat lets you cast a 3rd level or less touch-range buff spell as part of your summoning and automatically apply it to your summon. I'm sure the implications of this are immediately visible.

Adumbration
2008-10-28, 01:26 PM
Am I crazy or, on the topic of the very end of Saph's post, is the spell Miasma (SPC, level 6 iirc, or maybe even 4???) something that ought to be included in the Overwhelming Cheese section? IIRC, it's basically "toxic gas fills the target's mouth. If they breathe, they die (no save). The gas persists 5 rounds/level.

...So, even as a level 4 spell, that's a minimum of 35 rounds. you can hold your breath one round per point of CON, and then you make checks vs suffocation, and meanwhile you can't take any actions (so both fleshrakers are now raking your flesh). Conclusion: Miasma, unless I'm missing something is a No-Save-Just-Die, at level six. :smalleek:

@^
Never again put those two words in that order in my presence, please *shudder*

It says "Fortitude negates" in the stat block. It's not mentioned in the description, but then again, many spells don't.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-28, 01:47 PM
If you know of any official rulings on that either way, let me know.

It works.

What does not work is taking ranger levels and going Beastmaster. Could it be that case you are remembering?

Talya
2008-10-28, 02:11 PM
It works.

What does not work is taking ranger levels and going Beastmaster. Could it be that case you are remembering?

Just clarifying Saph's reply.


Natural Bond, however, is unfortunately not a good feat choice for Druids, as it doesn't cancel out the level penalty for a more powerful companion - I don't remember the exact rules explanation, but I'm 95% sure it doesn't work.

She might have been 95% sure, but I think she rolled a natural 1. :smallfrown:

kamikasei
2008-10-28, 02:19 PM
Having checked the text for Natural Bond, it seems to be one of those "in what order can you apply the bonuses/penalties" questions. The feat says it can't raise your effective druid level above your actual character level, but if you take the penalty when you choose the companion and then add the bonus from the feat, it works out. I think the general ruling in those cases is that the addition is done in whatever order is most advantageous, but it's a matter for your DM really.

Saph
2008-10-28, 02:27 PM
She might have been 95% sure, but I think she rolled a natural 1. :smallfrown:

Looks like! I did think you couldn't use the feat that way, but I don't remember the argument. I'll defer to the Rules Beholder, since he tends to be right. :P

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 02:47 PM
Having checked the text for Natural Bond, it seems to be one of those "in what order can you apply the bonuses/penalties" questions. The feat says it can't raise your effective druid level above your actual character level, but if you take the penalty when you choose the companion and then add the bonus from the feat, it works out. I think the general ruling in those cases is that the addition is done in whatever order is most advantageous, but it's a matter for your DM really.

Actually, according to RAW, players apply effects in whichever fashion is most beneficial to them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 03:35 PM
Druids can do everything, but not all at once(though they get closer than anyone else). I'd say drop Natural Bond and Companion Spellbond. This appears to be a massively OP campaign, and your pet probably won't be able to keep up. Snag Initiate of Malar if you can justify it(Augment Summoning w/no prereqs and only applies to animals), Natural Spell, and the other recommendations here. I also would like to mention Quicken Spell at higher levels. You run into the action issue, and being able to buff while charging/pouncing/grappling is very useful.

Talya
2008-10-28, 04:02 PM
Snag Initiate of Malar if you can justify it(Augment Summoning w/no prereqs and only applies to animals)


That's a sweet feat. I haven't yet worked out my character though, and Malar wasn't in contention...hmmm...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-28, 04:13 PM
Just clarifying Saph's reply.

Yeah sorry Talya, Saph, my post could have used more context and perhaps a nicer tone. :smallredface:

Triaxx
2008-10-28, 04:37 PM
Lupin, if you don't mind being a monster. Asherati can be fun, if you can get someone to soften earth and stone so you can swim through a wall and surprise your enemies. Hadozee can be fun since you can transform into something that flys, then glide to a landing over the walls. One of the Kobold Variants could be fun, Jungle looses Int instead of CON, and desert only loses 2 STR.

For reference, I love Giant Lizards as familiar's, since at lower levels they can be terrifying and with Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance cast they are still useful without being complete cheese until the next adjustment. It makes more sense for flanking, having a giant lizard chewing on your leg than some canine standing there.


For reference, since most DM's like a page number to check:

Lupin DR235 p 85
Asherati Sandstorm p37
Hadozee Stormwrack p41

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 07:39 PM
Shifters are also pretty good, the shifting is completely usable while shaped for some nice benefits, and some of the Shifter feats are useful.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 08:12 PM
Looks like! I did think you couldn't use the feat that way, but I don't remember the argument. I'll defer to the Rules Beholder, since he tends to be right. :P

- Saph

Considering if you don't defer, he'll sap you with his disintegrate eye! That puppy stings, lemme tell ya!

Talya
2008-10-30, 11:39 AM
So here's what I'm thinking:

Whisper Gnome Druid

Str: 6
Dex: 14
Con: 20
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

Animal Companion: Undecided

Feat- Torn between the following: Spell focus (conjuration) - for Augment Summoning Prerequisite, Magic in the Blood (Whisper Gnome SLAs all 3/day) or Extra Silencing (whisper gnome silence 3+cha/day), or Tracking (depending if we have a ranger)

Skills: Concentration 4, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Listen 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4, Survival 4

I'm not going to dump charisma, so I'll be careful about how much I carry. DM said he's not counting armor worn or main weapon in our weight limits, and I can always put saddlebags on my animal companion.

Talya
2008-10-30, 12:14 PM
Hey, it strikes me that Vow of Poverty is actually good for a druid, especially if they plan to spend a lot of time wildshaped where gear doesn't work anyway...a human VOP druid might be worth it, do you think?

OverdrivePrime
2008-10-30, 12:36 PM
Hey, it strikes me that Vow of Poverty is actually good for a druid, especially if they plan to spend a lot of time wildshaped where gear doesn't work anyway...a human VOP druid might be worth it, do you think?

As thousands before me have said:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/mwellenstein/Lose/ackbarTrap.jpg


If weight allowance is a huge concern of yours, I think you're better off getting a handy haversack. It's dirt cheap, and massively useful.

monty
2008-10-30, 02:21 PM
I guess you could say VoP is less suboptimal for druids than other classes (assuming normal wealth). Of course, since druids can run circles around most of the other classes even without items anyway, that's not saying much.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-30, 02:36 PM
If you take normal WBL and buy a Wilding Clasp for every single item you own, you'll still be more effective than a druid with VoP...

Excluding, of course, the junk and random items...you don't need to use your 10ft pole in animal form. :)

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 02:54 PM
VoP works for three classes: druid, totemist, and incarnate, and even then you're likely better off doing something else.

Unless, of course, you want to make The Pauper of Smack.

EDIT: Speaking of incarnum, Open Least Chakra (Arms) and Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) will let you bind the Sphinx Claws soulmeld to your arms, which will give you the pounce ability with natural attacks regardless of your form. It's two feats for pounce, which is fairly decent as far as that goes, but your DM has to allow Magic of Incarnum (as balanced a book as I ever saw, but a lot of people don't understand it on first read-through--it's rather complex).

Draz74
2008-10-30, 02:56 PM
VOP is actually not very harmful to Druids (or Totemists) at all. Psions can manage without it, too.

Whether it's still not *as* good as a normal set of magical equipment probably depends on how good of equipment your DM allows anyway. Not just whether your DM gives full WBL, but which books are allowed and how creative your custom items can get. With MIC allowed and liberal custom items (e.g. combining multiple cheap MIC items for 1.5x cost), VOP just can't measure up. If you're stuck with Core-only magic items, I'd go with VOP instead.

Talya
2008-10-30, 04:04 PM
As thousands before me have said:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/mwellenstein/Lose/ackbarTrap.jpg


If weight allowance is a huge concern of yours, I think you're better off getting a handy haversack. It's dirt cheap, and massively useful.



It's not about weight allowance. It's about no sane DM i've ever met allowing the "Shopping mall" mentality of item use and acquisition (including this one), and him likely sticking with core items anyway.

Being able to actually have "item bonuses" while wildshaped because of having VOP might be worth it...