I found an Expy/Ripoff character!

[13_CBS]

Hey look! Rider's (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateStayNight) got a new job! (http://www.onemanga.com/Kandachime/1/00-cover/) Isn't it sad awesome? :smallbiggrin: *Helps self to a cookie*

Let's see...

Long (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapunzelHair), purple hair? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouGottaHaveBlueHair) Check.

Blindfolds? Check, sort of.

Tall, Dark, and Bishoujou? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TallDarkAndBishoujo) check.

Well endowed in terms of, err, combat abilities? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoobsOfSteel) Check.

Supernatural beings? Check.

Also, Rider came gave me the impression as being a mostly stoic sort of Servant (at least in the Fate/Stay Night anime)--looks like Mumiyo's going to be much the same.

:smallbiggrin:

P.S: The series itself doesn't look too enticing. I feel as though I've been there, read that. I just found one of the main characters to look remarkably like Rider from Fate.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tall, Dark, and Bishoujou? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TallDarkAndBishoujo) check.


How can you claim that someone with pink-purple-lylac hair is tall dark and bishoujo, which is for characters with black to blue hair?

[Tengu_temp]

It's more about an attitude than the actual hair colour.

[13_CBS]

Hey, tvtropes has Rider listed as Tall, Dark, and Bishoujo as well. Don't blame me. :smalltongue:

Edit: Bah, ninjaed. When did Tengu learn ninjutsu? :smallannoyed:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Hey, tvtropes has Rider listed as Tall, Dark, and Bishoujo as well. Don't blame me. :smalltongue:

Edit: Bah, ninjaed. When did Tengu learn ninjutsu? :smallannoyed:

Tropers can be wrong.

Rider is so rediculously sexualised that she doesn't really fit with "tall dark and bishoujo" even if you discount her wrong hair colour. "Tall dark and bishoujo" characters are often sexy but have "beautiful" (or possibly handsome would be more acurate) as the overiding trait. Rider is more Ms. Fanservice. Which is disturbing since Gorgons are supposed to be ugly.

[13_CBS]

Eh, Rider is listed under both the Characters index for Fate and the TDaB page at tvtropes. That's good enough for me.

Back on topic, Mumiyo and Rider look and seem to behave so much alike that I'm starting to wonder if it isn't just mere coincidence or inspiration. :smallconfused:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Tall Dark and Bishoujo seems to be a poorly chosen title, considering how many pink-haired women fit the personality. It's more about dark, serious personality alongside...whatever the heck bishoujo means.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tall Dark and Bishoujo seems to be a poorly chosen title, considering how many pink-haired women fit the personality. It's more about dark, serious personality alongside...whatever the heck bishoujo means.

I know I've only seen the adaption decayed anime, but I don't see how Rider even fits the personality.

Most tvtropes articles have bad examples on the fringes. It's a wiki after all.

Incidently, I've resently been painting a Rider Expy miniature, in that it has rediculously long hair and a blindfold. Not to mention huge tits but those are a necesary evil at low levels of detail.

[The Evil Thing]

Which is disturbing since Gorgons are supposed to be ugly.
FSN claims that the three gorgon sisters were once incredibly beautiful and only become hideous monsters after Poseidon's wife grew jealous and cursed them. Of course, Nasu is somewhat... cavalier with historical accuracy so it might not be ideal to cite him.

Ovid says something similar, however, and early AD art depicted Medusa as incredibly beautiful, just with snakes in her hair.

Wow, I finally found a use for my Classics GCSE.

[Tengu_temp]

I think Nasu is just like the guy who wrote Hellsing - he did careful research about the topics he was going to include in his work, to make sure he got everything right... and then he threw half of it away and replaced it with Rule of Cool.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ancient Greek myths are so confused that you can find basis for saying whatever you want.

Beautiful women being cursed ugly by gods happens a lot in mythology.

[Artemician]

I think Nasu is just like the guy who wrote Hellsing - he did careful research about the topics he was going to include in his work, to make sure he got everything right... and then he threw half of it away and replaced it with Rule of Cool.

It takes a *lot* of work to get everything as wrong as Nasu did.

A lot.

[Tengu_temp]

It takes a *lot* of work to get everything as wrong as Nasu did.

A lot.

But how cool it is!

[The Evil Thing]

Blue blue glass moon under the crimson air

[Closet_Skeleton]

Shouldn't an "expy" have to be in a work by the same author, or otherwise you'd simply be dealing with a rip-off, clone or homage?

[Nerd-o-rama]

FSN claims that the three gorgon sisters were once incredibly beautiful and only become hideous monsters after Poseidon's wife grew jealous and cursed them. Of course, Nasu is somewhat... cavalier with historical accuracy so it might not be ideal to cite him.I heard a similar variant on the myth from, I believe, Bullfinch's mythology. Although I think it was Athena that cursed them after Poseidon raped one of them (Medusa?) in one of her temples.

Greek gods are *****.

[The Evil Thing]

I heard a similar variant on the myth from, I believe, Bullfinch's mythology. Although I think it was Athena that cursed them after Poseidon raped one of them (Medusa?) in one of her temples.

Greek gods are *****.
That's right. According to Ovid's Metamorphoses (which I read through a few years back), Poseidon was attracted to her (Medusa's) golden hair and raped her in a temple to Athena. In revenge for the desecration she changed Medusa's hair into snakes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That's right. According to Ovid's Metamorphoses (which I read through a few years back), Poseidon was attracted to her (Medusa's) golden hair and raped her in a temple to Athena. In revenge for the desecration she changed Medusa's hair into snakes.

So, when rape happens, the woman is always wrong?

I'm either glad we don't live in ancient Greece or terrorfied at how little has changed and I don't feel like doing the research needed to find out which.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Like I said. Classical gods were freaking jerks to mortals, even the comparatively nice ones like Athena.

Let's be fair, though. Sometimes it seems like "the mortal is always wrong" rather than "the victim is always wrong," at least when the god involved is more powerful than the one who was "wronged". See also: every myth about Hera and Zeus.

[13_CBS]

Shouldn't an "expy" have to be in a work by the same author, or otherwise you'd simply be dealing with a rip-off, clone or homage?


Was it? Oh well.

In that case, I found a clone!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Let's be fair, though. Sometimes it seems like "the mortal is always wrong" rather than "the victim is always wrong," at least when the god involved is more powerful than the one who was "wronged". See also: every myth about Hera and Zeus.

I think one incarnation of the Gorgon myth has them as not blood siblings but instead three women who adopted each other because they'd all been screwed over by a god.

It also happens to nymphs though, who aren't mortal. I'm not sure if Medusa was mortal originaly either but some versions have her as the only mortal gorgon.

[The Evil Thing]

So, when rape happens, the woman is always wrong?
I refuse to discuss the morality behind classical literature. The culture is just too different. I think Nerd-o-rama has the right idea, though.

At any rate, if this is indeed what happened to Rider it would explain a lot about why Sakura summoned her.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I refuse to discuss the morality behind classical literature. The culture is just too different. I think Nerd-o-rama has the right idea, though.

That sounds scarily like saying that certain countries don't need democracy in the way western ones do. It's a slippery slope and all that.

The problem with saying that "the culture is just too different" is that often it isn't at all. After all, Humans haven't evolved at all since then. The modern world has just as many "repulsive" moralities as the ancient one and to say that "it's all in the past" is turning away from reality.

Or perhaps worse, what you're doing could come close to refusing to learn from history.

However I'd agree that there's no point debating the morality of long dead people because they can't be convinced anymore.

[Terraoblivion]

It is not that simple, Closet_Skeleton. While humans are fundamentally the same across cultures, with the same basic needs and desires, the way they learn are legitimate and effective to achieve those goals differ quite a bit. Look at the question of whether it is alright to beat children. On one hand you have people who consider it amoral not to do it, because how else can you teach them that something is wrong? On the other hand you have entire countries where it has been outlawed and is seen as only slightly better than sexually abusing the child.

And that is merely a difference of opinion. What is much more substantial is that different societies have very different structural frameworks for which to form their morality in. To stay in the setting of ancient Greek morality then the childishness of the Homeric heroes was actually a perfectly valid and reasonable response to the world they lived in. We are talking about a world without any written records or bureaucracy. The society operates solely on trust and reputation, so any insult is not just a wound to the pride of the one involved, it also undermines their standing in society if they let it slide. However, a violent confrontation would also tear the Greek host apart and hurt all involved, so the solution of sulking in his tent is perfectly and utterly reasonable. Where Achilles goes wrong is refusing the restitution offered, thus violating the agreements that the society is based on. On the other hand for the king to not get any spoils at all would weaken his standing as well, however, so would taking the spoils of someone else. He was caught in an situation with no good way out, though he probably chose the worse solution of the ones presented.

The concept of blood money is similar, when you lack a strong state that can deliver justice finding other ways of preventing feuds is vitally important. Giving restitution for the harm you have inflicted another family, can hopefully soothe spirits enough to prevent a destructive conflict that harm all involved. The trade in women between families and the arranged marriages that follows is yet another case of poorly organized societies keeping themselves together. It helps establish the family as the organizational framework of a society, while at the same time creating a way for these families to build ties to each other so they don't tear society apart.

Seen in such a light then as amoral and horrible as the actions of the Greek gods are, many of them becomes both reasonable and logical in the context. Athena could not afford to have her temples desecrated, but since she could not truly get at Poseidon while still having to show her displeasure at what happened, she took it out on Medusa. At the very least it destroyed one of Poseidon's possessions, so to speak. It is not fair or moral in any sense of the words, but if it was not done the cosmic order would have been harmed as Athena would have lost standing, while Poseidon would have gained it. Other actions of the gods don't work out like that, but are pretty much just a result of the gods being able to, though they are not always presented equally flattering in these cases. The long period in which the stories were created and the amount of different people creating different stories makes it a bit hard to pin down a single personality for any god, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It is not that simple

Nothing is.


To stay in the setting of ancient Greek morality then the childishness of the Homeric heroes was actually a perfectly valid and reasonable response to the world they lived in.

I don't think the Greek's necesaraly viewed their heroes as role models. Most of them meet tragic ends after all.

Some of the values we have in the modern world (though plenty of modern people want to grind them into dust) are only possible in our own afluent and technologicaly advanced societies, but I don't see how mysogyny (yeah, I doubt that word really has three ys but I can't spell) is one of them.


Athena could not afford to have her temples desecrated, but since she could not truly get at Poseidon while still having to show her displeasure at what happened, she took it out on Medusa.

In the myth of Hypolitus/Phaedra Aphrodite manages to completely defeat Artemis without resorting to picking on a god. Athena is supposed to be 100x smarter than Aphrodite (a master strategist against a complete bimbo) but always gets rid of her enemies by turning them into monsters. But that might just be Euripides' fondness of Xanatos Gambits.

In the end, the message is still that if you're a god, you can do what you want and have the inherent right to punish any mortal.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So hey, back on topic, anyone find anything familiar about that Mister Bushido chap from Gundam 00?

[Terraoblivion]

Euripides is hardly a fair basis for comparison. The latest and most complex of the three great tragedy writers of Athens, the other two being Aeschyllos and Sophokles, he hardly ever presented anything in the typical manner and did in fact often write his tragedies about the conflict between the traditional and the modern. Look at Medea for a prominent example of this.

As for how misogyny fits into a society being primitive, it is not so much about technology as it is about administrative tools available. Simply put primitive agricultural societies don't have a whole lot to use to bind society together. What they do have, however, is families, but for this two work two things are needed, one is that the ties between families are made in ways that strengthen society instead of causing conflicts. The other is that people can trust that their heirs really are their. If either of those two are not the case, society will tear itself apart. The first is handled by not even thinking about the concept of marriage for love and is as hard on the men as on the women, really. The second is the misogynistic part, as the easiest way to ensure that your wife isn't sleeping with other men is to prevent her from meeting other men and to be able to punish her if she is. As unpleasant as it is, it was a fundamentally rational economical decision at the time. It is just that the times have changed and society has moved on to have better administrative tools available than families.

Also think about it this way, is it a coincidence that all major agricultural cultures have been centered around patriarchal families? Hunter gatherer societies are not and urban societies aren't either, but agricultural ones are.

[The Evil Thing]

As always, Terraoblivion delivers with a brutal finishing strike to any opposing arguments.


Isn't it funny how a passing mention that two Japanese fictional characters look similar morphed into a discussion on ancient Greek society?

[kamikasei]

The other is that people can trust that their heirs really are their. If either of those two are not the case, society will tear itself apart. The first is handled by not even thinking about the concept of marriage for love and is as hard on the men as on the women, really. The second is the misogynistic part, as the easiest way to ensure that your wife isn't sleeping with other men is to prevent her from meeting other men and to be able to punish her if she is.

Of course, another option would be to have property inherited through the mother. You can (pretty much) always be sure a woman's children are really her own. The trick there is that you get into evopsych questions of whether an unfair patriarcy will tend to outcompete a fair matriarchy due to differences in reproductive strategy...

[Closet_Skeleton]

The other is that people can trust that their heirs really are their.

One alternative, present in Anglo-Saxon England, was to make your sister's children your heirs.


Also think about it this way, is it a coincidence that all major agricultural cultures have been centered around patriarchal families? Hunter gatherer societies are not and urban societies aren't either, but agricultural ones are.

All agricultural societes may have been patriarchal, but they had varying degrees of mysogyny.


As always, Terraoblivion delivers with a brutal finishing strike to any opposing arguments.

Oddly, I don't really see this as an arguement.

[Fri]

One alternative, present in Anglo-Saxon England, was to make your sister's children your heirs.



All agricultural societes may have been patriarchal, but they had varying degrees of mysogyny.



Oddly, I don't really see this as an arguement.

Nah. On top of my head,I can think at least one agricultural society culture race thing around here that's matriarchal. But sadly I can't say what culture is that because that'll give away the location of my secret elven village.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Nah. On top of my head,I can think at least one agricultural society culture race thing around here that's matriarchal. But sadly I can't say what culture is that because that'll give away the location of my secret elven village.

Darn, I could've made quite a packet off the Inquisition if I had that knowledge.

[nothingclever]

I know I've only seen the adaption decayed anime, but I don't see how Rider even fits the personality.

Most tvtropes articles have bad examples on the fringes. It's a wiki after all.

Incidently, I've resently been painting a Rider Expy miniature, in that it has rediculously long hair and a blindfold. Not to mention huge tits but those are a necesary evil at low levels of detail.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/001.jpg

[The Evil Thing]

So hey, back on topic, anyone find anything familiar about that Mister Bushido chap from Gundam 00?
If by familiar you mean a complete carbon copy of Graham Acre then yes, I do find him familiar. (Ho Ho)


Oddly, I don't really see this as an arguement.
It's reasonable to infer you had an opinion which differed from her own. You stated a case in your post and hence made an argument.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/001.jpg
Sauce plox

[nothingclever]

The sauce is Chaos Head. It is made of god and win.

[The Evil Thing]

The sauce is Chaos Head. It is made of god and win.
Ah! Chaos;Head! The translation's almost done. It's from the same people who did Phantom of Inferno. I can't wait! :smallbiggrin:

Happiness!

[Artemician]

The sauce is Chaos Head. It is made of god and win.

The only other person I know who likes Chaos;Head is a Nazi. You're not a Nazi, are you?

[The Evil Thing]

The only other person I know who likes Chaos;Head is a Nazi. You're not a Nazi, are you?
Oh wow, I almost replied seriously to that.

[Artemician]

Oh wow, I almost replied seriously to that.

:smallsmile:filler