Animal Companions

[Pandaren]

Seeing as my DM seems intent on seeing me fail. I have a new argument against him.


Do animal companions gain size as they increase HD, like normal animals and magic beasts?


Or not?


All comments appreciated.

Edit: 3.5

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No, they don't. But they can wear Armor(Mithral Chain Barding is good) and they do gain feats which you choose, so they can be pretty nice. What's your build, we may be able to make it better.

[Pandaren]

My build is fine. My animal companion is fine. Well, if I can get an explanation why they wouldn't gain size.


Barring it actually it being big, I can just cast animal growth and permanency, a few times.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Barring it actually it being big, I can just cast animal growth and permanency, a few times.Multiple effects from the same source don't stack. You can only raise it by one category.

[Pandaren]

Permanency
*wooshing noise*
It's you can cast enlarge person again on a humanoid if they have it "permanacy"-fied. Works for animals, too; at least I don't see a reason why not.

edit: And second question if anybody is reading this anymore. In the EpicLevelHandbook, the epic druid's animal companion ability is mentioned as "The druid can have a maximum number of animal companions equal to twice her class level as normal." Straight off quote. Muttiple animal companions?

[Epinephrine]

While they don't grow, there's nothing stopping a druid releasing his current companion to bind a new one, that happens to be bigger.

That's how I'd solve it - if a player had a wolf AC, and wanted to replace it with a Large wolf? I'd advance the wolf, give it 2 more HD and make it large, and adjust the level to level -3 - to me that's the important bit to keep it balanced.

If you look at the difference between Wolverine and Dire Wolverine it's -3 level difference, with a size increase, 2 HD, all good saves as a Dire animal, +8 Str, +2 Dx, same Con, +2 natural armour, etc. That's pretty similar to advancing a wolf from Medium to Large (+8 Str, -2 Dx, +4 Con, +2 natural armour). Since it's balanced in terms of the game, I'd have no issue with it being the same animal companion - why would I punish the player's role-playing by making him release an AC to bind a new one?

[Pandaren]

That is helpful, but I do mean it as in getting a bigger animal companion, if it was possible. I'm using the animal companion as a mount, regardless if it's medium or large, I can ride it (kobold), but I would prefer the strength and dragging capacity of a larger animal.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Permanency
*wooshing noise*
It's you can cast enlarge person again on a humanoid if they have it "permanacy"-fied. Works for animals, too; at least I don't see a reason why not.

edit: And second question if anybody is reading this anymore. In the EpicLevelHandbook, the epic druid's animal companion ability is mentioned as "The druid can have a maximum number of animal companions equal to twice her class level as normal." Straight off quote. Muttiple animal companions?3.0 material, the AC was changed for 3.5. And no, you can't do Permanency to increase a humanoid more than one size. Permanency changes a spells duration to permanent, not instantaneous. Multiple castings of the same spell don't stack.

[Townopolis]

The ELH is based on the old 3e rules, wherein ACs did not advance, rather, you just collected multiple ACs with total HD not exceeding your druid level.

Thus, druids often replaced their ACs. They'd start with a wolf, then switch to a bear when they were high enough level (the wolf didn't advance, so by level 5 having a wolf companion was useless). Then they'd switch to a dire tiger at level X, end up with a dire elephant AC or something.

They switched it in 3.5 because that way was stupid.

On the other hand, in 3e, a druid could have 80 hawk companions at level 20 if he really wanted to.

[Pandaren]

3.0 material, the AC was changed for 3.5. And no, you can't do Permanency to increase a humanoid more than one size. Permanency changes a spells duration to permanent, not instantaneous. Multiple castings of the same spell don't stack.

But then wouldn't it be possible to cast two reduce person spells on the creature? One to subdue the enlarge person for a short period of time and the other to reduce them?


Hawk swarm......yum. Wonder what an ant's HD is?...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But then wouldn't it be possible to cast two reduce person spells on the creature? One to subdue the enlarge person for a short period of time and the other to reduce them?No, because the Reduce Person simply decreases your size one step, it doesn't actually cancel the effect of the Enlarge Person.

[Pandaren]

No, because the Reduce Person simply decreases your size one step, it doesn't actually cancel the effect of the Enlarge Person.


Even though it's spell description specifically says that (and I hope I remember corrrectly.)..

So the permanancied enlarged person can only have reduce person cast once, and not enlarge person.


Edit:

Reduce Person counters and dispels Enlarge PersonPlayers Handbook. pg. 269.
But since enlarge person is permanancied, it would take a higher level spellcaster than the original spellcaster, it would only subdue for the spell's duration.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Edit:
Players Handbook. pg. 269.
But since enlarge person is permanancied, it would take a higher level spellcaster than the original spellcaster, it would only subdue for the spell's duration.Those rules only apply to counterspelling.

And Permanancied spells can be dispelled just like any other. They're usually a resource-sink, as a single targeted Dispel can wipe out all your xp-draining buffs.

[Pandaren]

Okay, but, back to point(s). The wolf can be large, huge?


And a size increase would raise a wolf to CR2

Dire Wolf is.....CR3. There is actually a specific Dire template someone created. And Dire wolf has four more HD. Same AC, much better attack, much better strength, Dire Wolf has 25, my animal companion would have 24 at large size(and me at 8th level), including Animal Companion bonus. It actually gets a Dex bonus, unlike the big wolf, which would have 13 instead of 15(Dire Wolf). And it's Con is 2 higher, Cha is four higher..

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Druid can take a Dire Wolf as their animal companion, but they take a -6 to their effective Druid level for its extra HD and other bonuses. You can take the feat Natural Bond (CV) to offset the penalty for having a more powerful companion by 3 points. As-written, the text of the Animal Companion class feature requires that you be 4th level or higher and have an effective Druid level of at least 1 for a companion's extra HD and bonuses to have it as a companion. The table given for the more powerful companions gives Dire Wolf as "7th Level or Higher (Level -6)" though the text overrules the table if there is any conflict. As-written, a Druid 4 with Natural Bond can take a companion from the Level -6 list, because he fulfills all of the requirements given in the text, which is in conflict with and overrules the minimum level requirement given on the table for that companion.

[Pandaren]

I know what the penalties are for getting different animal companions, but I was just mentioning the Dire Wolf because, while it's just a larger wolf, it also has higher attributes and stronger attacks.

The Dire Wolf is available, as are other animals, but I just want a Large/Huge Wolf. Do the bonus HD for an animal companion work like a normal animal/magic beast? Would you have a large wolf?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Dire Wolf is available, as are other animals, but I just want a Large/Huge Wolf. Do the bonus HD for an animal companion work like a normal animal/magic beast? Would you have a large wolf?

No, that's already been answered. Advancing an animal as per the monster manual advancement scale increases its size. Adding HD from the Animal Companion class feature is not the same as advancing it by the monster manual entry, and grants no additional size categories. Get a Dire Wolf and cast Animal Growth, and it will be Huge.

[Gerrtt]

No, they don't. But they can wear Armor(Mithral Chain Barding is good) and they do gain feats which you choose, so they can be pretty nice. What's your build, we may be able to make it better.

I know animals trained for war can wear barding, but is there a citation you can give for animal companions being able to wear barding?

[Starbuck_II]

I know animals trained for war can wear barding, but is there a citation you can give for animal companions being able to wear barding?

True, only Warhorses and Riding Dog (mentions this too), and maybe some other animals mention it.

However, mithral chain Shirt has no armor check penalty so who cares: no penalties.

[Tsotha-lanti]

My build is fine. My animal companion is fine. Well, if I can get an explanation why they wouldn't gain size.


Barring it actually it being big, I can just cast animal growth and permanency, a few times.

Because there's no connection between the mechanic by which animal companions gain hit dice, and the mechanic by which monsters that start out with higher hit dice also start out with a larger size. It's a different system. Creatures with higher HD (advanced creatures) aren't actually advanced - they started out bigger and stronger and meaner.


edit: And second question if anybody is reading this anymore. In the EpicLevelHandbook, the epic druid's animal companion ability is mentioned as "The druid can have a maximum number of animal companions equal to twice her class level as normal." Straight off quote. Muttiple animal companions?

3.0 rules. There was no animal companion class ability, there was an animal friendship spell that affected caster level x 2 HD of animals.

It was ridiculously broken.


And no, you can't stack multiple spells, regardless of permanency. Only instant spells can affect you multiple times (because they make permanent changes, and not like the permanency spell).


Players Handbook. pg. 269.
But since enlarge person is permanancied, it would take a higher level spellcaster than the original spellcaster, it would only subdue for the spell's duration.

The first reduce person dispels the enlarge person and doesn't stay in effect. The second reduce person is the only one actually "on" and affecting the target. This is completely different from putting two reduce person spells on one target at the same time.

Nothing is "subdued" - the spell in effect is just dispelled. (Assuming you make the dispel check, probably.)


If you want a bigger animal companion, follow the rules for, you know, taking a bigger animal as an animal companion. A dire wolf is a -6 companion (that is, your level is considered 6 lower).


I know what the penalties are for getting different animal companions, but I was just mentioning the Dire Wolf because, while it's just a larger wolf, it also has higher attributes and stronger attacks.

The Dire Wolf is available, as are other animals, but I just want a Large/Huge Wolf. Do the bonus HD for an animal companion work like a normal animal/magic beast? Would you have a large wolf?

You'd have to get your DM to give the advanced wolf a level (i.e. a modifier to the druid/ranger level). This isn't terribly hard - the DM just needs to compare the advanced wolf's stats to other existing animal companions for a close equivalency. A 4 HD advance wolf (which is Large) would probably be a 5th-level animal companion (which means you'd have to be a 6th-level druid to get it, and it would get bonuses and abilities as if you were a 1st-level druid). I'd just get a Dire Wolf, myself.

Edit: You can't get a Huge wolf anyway. Advanced wolves top out at 6 HD and Large size. Dire wolves top out at 18 HD and never get Huge.

[Gerrtt]

And naturally you mean mithral chain shirt barding, since it's effective ACP is less than 0, whereas mithral chainmail still has -2, right?

Good call on that.

[Pandaren]

Okay, I'll proabably tell my DM it's a Dire wolf and keep the Large Wolf stats. easier(well Huge with the permanancied animal growth spell.). And that was horribly broken.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Why would you do that? A dire wolf is better. Plus, you know, a dire wolf is precisely what you want - a bigger wolf.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Animal Growth can't be affected by Permanency, it's not on the list. If it could, you could Permanency it on yourself and it would be active any time you're Wild Shaped, way too good. Plus it wouldn't be able to even get into a dungeon/lair built for medium or smaller inhabitants if it was permanently huge size. Just cast Animal Growth at the start of an encounter when you need it and you'll be fine.

Get a Dire Wolf (Level -6), get Natural Bond (Level +3), and you're better off than trying to make a standard Wolf any bigger.

[Fhaolan]

To get a 'wild' animal like a wolf to wear armor, you have to train it. It's considered to be a trick, I believe in 3.x.

The other option, if it's available is to use the Warbeast template. This opens up another question though, as some DMs won't allow a templated animal as a companion. This particular template doesn't affect the creature type, though, as it remains 'Animal'.

In the same way simply having the animal be advanced *before* it becomes a companion is sometimes frowned upon by DMs. It's a matter of interpretation.

My wife's high-level ranger character in a 3.0 game has an advanced Tiger with the warbeast template as a companion. The game started at this high level, so actually advancing the companion to this point didn't come into play. It was assumed the the ranger didn't get this companion until she was high enough level to accomidate it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

To get a 'wild' animal like a wolf to wear armor, you have to train it. It's considered to be a trick, I believe in 3.x.

The other option, if it's available is to use the Warbeast template. This opens up another question though, as some DMs won't allow a templated animal as a companion. This particular template doesn't affect the creature type, though, as it remains 'Animal'.Mithral Chain Shirt has no penalties for wear, and therefore can be worn by anyone other than Monks, Druids, and Arcane Casters(who need the Twilight enhancement added to that). Yes the wolf isn't proficient, but the only penalty for non-proficiency is Armor Check Penalty being added to your attack rolls, and the ACP is 0. :smallbiggrin:

[Tsotha-lanti]

The other option, if it's available is to use the Warbeast template. This opens up another question though, as some DMs won't allow a templated animal as a companion. This particular template doesn't affect the creature type, though, as it remains 'Animal'.

Understandably, since the DM would, again, have to figure out what level companion the animal is.

Advanced animals were possible as companions in 3.0, and it was gigantically broken. Our druid had an advanced Huge dire bear. Animal growth and he had a literally truck-sized bear.

It was pretty epic, but I had to come up with endless contrivances to keep the bear out of encounters, because it was almost as good a combatant as the druid (who was better than the entire rest of the party).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are feats to add a template to your Animal Companion, such as Exalted Companion (BoED) which adds a -1 to your effective Druid level for its extra abilities. I'd assume you could make a feat to gain a Warbeast Animal Companion for a similar cost, though the template wouldn't add the +1 HD.

I'd just say that any animal trained for combat riding as per Handle Animal would also be considered proficient for wearing barding.

[John Campbell]

There's very little difference between a wolf that's been advanced to Large via bonus HD from being an animal companion, and a dire wolf at the same druid level. You get them at the same druid level, they have the same HD, same stats almost across the board... the dire wolf has a better Cha, and is +2 on Str and -2 on Con, or vice versa (I forget). Other than that, they're identical.

Except that the advanced wolf gets the other animal companion abilities sooner, and you get control of its 3HD and 6HD feats.

I was looking at this possibility for a half-orc wolf-rider barbarian (mostly Ranger by class, actually... only one level in Barbarian, for the rage and the Wolf Totem) I was making, because by RAI, I was going to have to dismiss my wolf animal companion, make my horse my animal companion for thirty seconds, take a level in Wild Plains Outrider (requires a rideable animal companion), and then dismiss the horse and summon a dire wolf (which I didn't qualify for until taking the WPO level), instead of just keeping the wolf throughout, and having it scale up to Large at the appropriate moment.

DM wouldn't let me do it, though, because of the other animal companion abilities. Like getting Devotion a few levels early (and on my already-gimpy Ranger animal companion) was going to be game-breaking.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Animal Growth can't be affected by Permanency, it's not on the list. If it could, you could Permanency it on yourself and it would be active any time you're Wild Shaped, way too good.

Not quite, you retain your original type and subtype while wildshaping.

[LibraryOgre]

There's very little difference between a wolf that's been advanced to Large via bonus HD from being an animal companion,

Nit pick, tangential:

Bonus HD from being an animal companion doesn't advance size, any more than HD from leveling up turns a halfling into a human.

[John Campbell]

Yes, that's the point of the thread. I'm just saying that allowing it, at least for wolves (haven't actually checked the numbers on the others), produces an animal companion that's basically identical to just getting a dire version with the appropriate druid-level modifier.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Nit pick, tangential:

Bonus HD from being an animal companion doesn't advance size, any more than HD from leveling up turns a halfling into a human.

Yeah, and this was already covered repeatedly at the start of the thread.

RTFT, people.


Yes, that's the point of the thread. I'm just saying that allowing it, at least for wolves (haven't actually checked the numbers on the others), produces an animal companion that's basically identical to just getting a dire version with the appropriate druid-level modifier.

It's not.

A 6th-level druid can have one of the following, for a wolf:

Dire wolf, HD 6d8+15 (45 hp), AC 14, bite +11 (1d8+10), Fort +8 Ref +7 Will +6, Str 25 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 10
Wolf, HD 6d8+12 (42 hp), AC 19, bite +7 (1d6+3), Fort +7 Ref +8 Will +3, Str 15 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 6

If you allow for the size-change...
Advanced Large Wolf, HD 6d8+24 (54 hp), AC 20, bite +10 (1d8+9), Fort +9 Ref +7 Will +3, Str 23 Dex 15 Con 19 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 6

The advanced wolf would be distinctly more powerful, generally (20% more hp, much better AC).

That's assuming you apply all the usual changes for advancing something by a size category.

[Pandaren]

AC is biggest difference, 26 for wolf, 14 for Dire Wolf at my level. And the other abilities, like Devotion and Multiattack (if It doesn't already have it. )

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, a Wolf can't benefit from Multiattack because it only has one natural weapon, its bite. It also never gets more than one attack with its bite, even if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher, the only exception being an effect like Haste. Furthermore:

Druid 6, Wolf companion:

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (39 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
BAB/Grapple: +4/+6
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
SA: Trip +2
SQ: Low-light vision, scent, Evasion, Devotion, Link, Share Spells
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Based on the Druid's skill ranks
Feats: Track, Weapon Focus (bite), (two extra feats)

Druid 6 with Natural Bond, Dire Wolf Companion:

Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
BAB/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
SA: Trip +12
SQ: Low-light vision, scent, Evasion, Link, Share Spells
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +7
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Based on the Druid's skill ranks
Feats: Alertness, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Even if you cheat and make your Wolf large size from animal companion hit dice, the Dire Wolf still has more HD, higher Str, better saves, and gets x1.5 Str to its bite damage. Dire Wolf with Natural Bond is in every way better than a Wolf, regardless of whether or not you cheat the wolf bigger.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Actually, normal wolves get 1.5x Str to damage, too. 1.5x +1 just happens to be +1.

[Pandaren]

Problem, I did make the wolf bigger, and I could use natural bond for it, too. These stats are comparing a 9th level Druid's Dire wolf to a 6th level Druid's normal wolf.

[Epinephrine]

First of all, a Wolf can't benefit from Multiattack because it only has one natural weapon, its bite.

Wrong - quoth the SRD, and PHB:


Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if
it has three or more natural attacks (see the Monster Manual for details
on this feat) and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the
requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead
gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5
penalty.