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shadow_archmagi
2008-10-29, 08:14 PM
Is this a good synergy for a gestalt game? I figure one provides great combat power, and the other provides great utility. Character level is starting at 4, with expected level to reach at least 6 before the main campaign starts.

Stats are

18
15
15
15
14
12

but I have no idea about race.

monty
2008-10-29, 08:19 PM
Seems pretty good to me. Either one is good by itself, Factotum is a good secondary class (most of their abilities either are passive or don't take actions to activate, not to mention Cunning Surge), and you have decent Int synergy.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-29, 08:28 PM
Factotum//Warblade is really, really solid. If you're going to PrC, do it on your Warblade side and go into one of the ToB PrCs. I'm a fan of going into Master of Nine or Bloodclaw Master, but you could do some serious twinkage with Ruby Knight Vindicator's ability to get extra swifts and coupling that with Factotum's powers.

Either way, I'd say take the Font of Inspiration feat in pretty much every slot you can: Warblade's maneuvers should be able to cover you for combat schtick, and Factotum's skills should be able to cover you outside of battle nicely.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-29, 08:40 PM
Awesome. Any Int-based class is good with Factotem, and Warblade is a great Int-based class. 18 Int, 15 Str, 15 Con, 15 Dex(will be 13 when enlarged, allowing you to keep your feats), 14 Cha, 12 Wis. I won't suggest FoI spam, as you've got so many awesome feats to take otherwise, but it will be awesome.

Thurbane
2008-10-29, 08:43 PM
Would it be worth 3 levels of Swashbuckler to get Int bonus damage on finessable weapons? Probably not...

FMArthur
2008-10-29, 08:43 PM
Awesome. Any Int-based class is good with Factotem, and Warblade is a great Int-based class. 18 Int, 15 Str, 15 Con, 15 Dex(will be 13 when enlarged, allowing you to keep your feats), 14 Cha, 12 Wis. I won't suggest FoI spam, as you've got so many awesome feats to take otherwise, but it will be awesome.

Well, FoI is ridiculously broken, so I don't see how he could take any awesome feats that are more awesome than FoI. If anything, he should refrain from taking FoI purely out of a sense of decency.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-29, 09:06 PM
Well, FoI is ridiculously broken, so I don't see how he could take any awesome feats that are more awesome than FoI. If anything, he should refrain from taking FoI purely out of a sense of decency.

Wait, so, the first time I take the feat, I get one point, and the second time two, and the third time three, for a total of six points?

And I get these back for every single fight, and they can do anything?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-29, 09:09 PM
Wait, so, the first time I take the feat, I get one point, and the second time two, and the third time three, for a total of six points?

And I get these back for every single fight, and they can do anything?Yes. Which would be horrid, but it cost you your 1st, 3rd, and 6th level feats. There's a lot of other stuff you could get for 3 feats.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-29, 09:10 PM
Yes. Which would be horrid, but it cost you your 1st, 3rd, and 6th level feats. There's a lot of other stuff you could get for 3 feats.

Hm. I still need a decent race though.

sonofzeal
2008-10-29, 09:12 PM
Hm. I still need a decent race though.
Human or Strongheart both give an extra feat for FoI.... :smallcool:

monty
2008-10-29, 09:13 PM
When in doubt, choose human. You can never go wrong with more feats and skill points.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-29, 09:18 PM
Level is also important to race. A Human going FoI is far better than anyone else early on(2 flaws for +10 insp), but later on other build chains have matured and a race with +to Int or Str is much better off. Can you go Kobold with Dragonwrought Desert? :smallwink:

monty
2008-10-29, 09:22 PM
Oh yeah, I completely forgot the second rule of race selection:

"Given sufficient optimization, kobolds are the best at everything."

Eldariel
2008-10-29, 09:29 PM
Font of Inspiration probably isn't that necessary unless you're going for very high power (and in that case, the whole point of Warblade eludes me). Factotum really wants Fonts to use its abilities constantly. With Warblade as your "dominant" side, you don't need to.

Adding Int to things few times per combat, taking that extra Standard Action and penetrating DR once should all be quite sufficient if you can only do them now and then. Now, of course, you can enjoy your abilities much more by taking Fonts (really, I think the base Factotum has way too little Inspiration...), so it's really down to whether you wanna be really good at what you do or if you wanna do more things.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-29, 09:32 PM
Font of Inspiration probably isn't that necessary unless you're going for very high power (and in that case, the whole point of Warblade eludes me). Factotum really wants Fonts to use its abilities constantly. With Warblade as your "dominant" side, you don't need to.Are you honestly saying Warblade isn't high-power? It's tier 2 through its entire life, as is Factotem. It's not one of the big 5, but it's good.

Keld Denar
2008-10-29, 09:38 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952620

Build by CantripN, one of the better optimizers over on CharOp. Its a solid build straight through, and a good starting place if you want to make adjustments from there.

Best of luck!

Townopolis
2008-10-29, 10:02 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the main reason to take FoI is that cunning surge + lots of inspiration points allows you to activate every single strike you have and then recover all your expended maneuvers all in the same turn.

monty
2008-10-29, 10:18 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the main reason to take FoI is that cunning surge + lots of inspiration points allows you to activate every single strike you have and then recover all your expended maneuvers all in the same turn.

You can only do that once per encounter, though, so it's really only effective against a single enemy, unless you've optimized yourself for group combat.

Eldariel
2008-10-30, 05:12 AM
Are you honestly saying Warblade isn't high-power? It's tier 2 through its entire life, as is Factotem. It's not one of the big 5, but it's good.

There's nothing Tier 2 about Warblade. It still hits things, just with a few additional tricks in the bag. You can't bone the reality up the rear as a Warblade like honest Tier 2 classes (such as Sorcerer, Favored Soul and company) can. Warblade is solidly in the Tier 3 zone. Same goes for Factotum. That said, they still kick a ton of ass in gestalt. I was just wondering about the choice if power was his aim - there seems to be more to that

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-30, 05:22 AM
There's nothing Tier 2 about Warblade. It still hits things, just with a few additional tricks in the bag. You can't bone the reality up the rear as a Warblade like honest Tier 2 classes (such as Sorcerer, Favored Soul and company) can. Warblade is solidly in the Tier 3 zone. Same goes for Factotum. That said, they still kick a ton of ass in gestalt. I was just wondering about the choice if power was his aim - there seems to be more to thatSimplicity? It's a pair of classes whose abilities can fit on one character sheet, rather than some insane Archivist//Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantrix/Archmage combo with more spells and abilities than can fit in anything less than 3 Excel sheets. And I object to the tier 3 remark, they can't make reality their bitch like the Wizards and Clerics, but they have abilities that can seriously hinder/injure/kill enemies at each level, that can be combined in interesting ways, and can do it without being squishy.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-30, 05:56 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952620

Build by CantripN, one of the better optimizers over on CharOp. Its a solid build straight through, and a good starting place if you want to make adjustments from there.

Best of luck!

Oooooh! That looks ideal. I'm not the best in the world at roleplaying, so I always have to be a high INT character one way or another. Since I've played far too many wizards and sorcerers, I figured I'd try melee.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 02:35 PM
There's nothing Tier 2 about Warblade. It still hits things, just with a few additional tricks in the bag. You can't bone the reality up the rear as a Warblade like honest Tier 2 classes (such as Sorcerer, Favored Soul and company) can. Warblade is solidly in the Tier 3 zone. Same goes for Factotum. That said, they still kick a ton of ass in gestalt. I was just wondering about the choice if power was his aim - there seems to be more to that

Uuuuuuuuh... Anything with full spellcasting is Tier 1, no questions asked. It may be a weak Tier 1, but it's Tier 1.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 03:02 PM
Uuuuuuuuh... Anything with full spellcasting is Tier 1, no questions asked. It may be a weak Tier 1, but it's Tier 1.

Nah, not Warmage or Healer. :smallwink:

But yeah, "Tier 1" definitely includes more than the Big 5, including (at the very least) the Sorcerer, Beguiler, and Psion.

EDIT: On topic time! I agree with the people saying "avoid Font of Inspiration, unless it's a very high-powered game." I think you can have much more fun taking a greater variety of feats, mostly Warblade-centric.

Potential Warblade build:
Race: Raptoran or Thri-Kreen (huge racial Jump bonuses)
Weapons: Dual kukris, eventually Keen
Skills: Max Jump and Concentration, probably Tumble too

Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind both have lots of ways to give you a ton of attacks. In the Blood in the Water stance, lots of attacks means you'll quickly build up huge bonuses to every attack/damage roll.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 03:06 PM
Nah, not Warmage or Healer. :smallwink:

But yeah, "Tier 1" definitely includes more than the Big 5, including (at the very least) the Sorcerer, Beguiler, and Psion.
I don't know what you're talking about, I've never heard of those classes. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2008-10-30, 03:39 PM
Uuuuuuuuh... Anything with full spellcasting is Tier 1, no questions asked. It may be a weak Tier 1, but it's Tier 1.

Meh. In JaronK's original system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0), the very definition of Tier 2 was Tier 1-like power with severe limitations as to how you can wield it. I don't know what system you're using to define class power, but to me it feels logical to use an uniform system so I go with his definitions.

hamishspence
2008-10-30, 03:57 PM
Does Spontaneous casting, limited spells known, and 18th instead of 17th level for 9th level spells, and no bonus class features past 1st, move, say, the Sorcerer into Tier 2?

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-30, 04:31 PM
Excuse me? This topic is going a bit off topic; I looked and saw a new post and was like "YAY, MORE HELPFUL ADVICE ABOUT WARBLADES AND OR FACTORUM" and here I find out that people are arguing about the quality of sorcerers.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 05:03 PM
Race: Raptoran or Thri-Kreen (huge racial Jump bonuses)

And Thri-kreen have four arms with claw attacks and a bite. Forget dual-wielding. Try quintuple-wielding.

hamishspence
2008-10-30, 05:10 PM
Mouthblade, or Jaws of The Dragon type item?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 05:17 PM
Hunger domain gets you a bite attack, girallon's blessing gets you two extra arms (which have hands, so you can wield with them) and it can be potioned.

If it were up to me, I'd go Thri-Kreen, have a stack of potions of girallon's blessing, and hit Multiattack. Forget weaponry, just have someone drop a magic fang on you (or get potions of that too). Six claws + a bite is nothing to sneeze at, especially with Tiger Claw discipline and Thri-Kreen's +30 to jump checks. I'd put it on your Warblade side (so, Factotum 20//Thri-Kreen 3/LA +1 (nonpsionic, or +2 for psionic)/Warblade 16 (or 15, with psionic).

hamishspence
2008-10-30, 05:19 PM
I thought by Quintuple wielding you meant actually wielding a weapon in the mouth (and hands)

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 06:22 PM
With a bite attack, you're wielding something.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 06:57 PM
If it were up to me, I'd go Thri-Kreen, have a stack of potions of girallon's blessing, and hit Multiattack. Forget weaponry, just have someone drop a magic fang on you (or get potions of that too). Six claws + a bite is nothing to sneeze at, especially with Tiger Claw discipline and Thri-Kreen's +30 to jump checks. I'd put it on your Warblade side (so, Factotum 20//Thri-Kreen 3/LA +1 (nonpsionic, or +2 for psionic)/Warblade 16 (or 15, with psionic).

Well, that may be a viable build, but without weaponry, it's no longer the Blood In the Water-based build I was recommending. Unless you have a way to get great threat ranges on your natural weapons.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-30, 08:42 PM
Does the "spend one point for 1d6 sneak attack" thing stack with itself?

Does brains over brain ADD the modifier, or replace the existing one with it?

Does Cunning Knowledge stack with brains over braWn?

Draz74
2008-10-30, 08:58 PM
Does the "spend one point for 1d6 sneak attack" thing stack with itself?
Yes. It's still a waste of Inspiration points 99% of the time, though.


Does brains over brain ADD the modifier, or replace the existing one with it?
Add. :smallbiggrin:


Does Cunning Knowledge stack with brains over brain?
Yes. :biggrin:

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-30, 09:00 PM
brains over brain?


Oops. Oh well, I guess technically one could use cunning knowledge on a knowledge check for double INT, right?

Draz74
2008-10-30, 09:04 PM
Oops. Oh well, I guess technically one could use cunning knowledge on a knowledge check for double INT, right?

Heh, actually, no. Cunning Knowledge adds your Factotum level, not your Int bonus.

Durendal
2008-10-31, 02:51 AM
If Oriental Adventures is allowed and you don't feel guilty about giving up a few Font of Inspiration feats for some less awesome ones, I would highly suggest at least one level in Iajutsu Master. You'll get Int to AC and be able to finesse a katana ftom just level 1.
Then maybe take a level of psion or the Wild Talent feat so you can become psionically focused and take 15 on Concentration checks. Combine that with Diamond Mind Manuevers and you're golden.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-31, 02:25 PM
If Oriental Adventures is allowed and you don't feel guilty about giving up a few Font of Inspiration feats for some less awesome ones, I would highly suggest at least one level in Iajutsu Master. You'll get Int to AC and be able to finesse a katana ftom just level 1.
Then maybe take a level of psion or the Wild Talent feat so you can become psionically focused and take 15 on Concentration checks. Combine that with Diamond Mind Manuevers and you're golden.

Interesting... Especially if I took that same level of psion and, you know, nicked Aesthetic Psion for the INT to AC.

hamishspence
2008-10-31, 02:31 PM
A weapon actually clutched in the mouth is even more "wielding" than just a bite attack. Though I suppose you could say a monk is "wielding" two deadly organic hammers that he calls Fists.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-31, 05:22 PM
Hmmm... build is just about done..

What is one feat that works well all by itself?

Draz74
2008-10-31, 05:44 PM
What is one feat that works well all by itself?

Improved Initiative :smallcool:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-31, 07:39 PM
Adaptive Style.
Martial Study.
Martial Stance.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-31, 08:26 PM
If you're looking for another feat, just pull Font of Inspiration or if you're taking I. Focus as a skill, you may get some benefit from Quick Draw.