Character Conception problem; Religious yet Savage?

[Paragon Badger]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

(As a note, despite this being in the gaming forum; the character is based off a historical figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tiptoft,_1st_Earl_of_Worcester) and I'm writing it as a dramatization of historical events. I figure this subforum's emphasis on the creative process made it more applicable than the media subforum.)

[Connington]

Seems pretty obvious to me.

"How can I do my God's work without shinies? I need the shinies. I deserve the shinies!"

[Telonius]

The failures motivate him to even greater fanaticism. He's awful, and he knows he's awful. But if he can only achieve (whatever his goal is), he'll be able to go to his grave knowing he was the last one to have to do any of that. He just killed a man in cold blood? It makes him even more resolute that his ultimate cause is right.

[hamishspence]

I'd say LE to NE could work, case could be made for either.

[Dentarthur]

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Sounds like a typical follower of a cruel, evil god, with a dash of Hannibal Lecter. Except for the whole "eating people" thing.

for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.
Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

It's not really a duality. Ferverent religious types can go overboard very easily. Maybe his religion encourages that sort of thing. Maybe he just tortures people who he feels have done "bad things" according to his faith, and the kick he gets out of it is a side bonus (i.e. "I'm just doing my job; it's not my fault if I enjoy it"). And in either case, I'm sure he wouldn't see a problem in making money doing the Lord's work.

[vicente408]

He is surrounded by fools who are not faithful enough (if they share his god) or worship an inferior deity, and that it is his duty to remove them and place himself, the only one truly worthy of the position, in power, in order to better serve the interests of his god.

[Lemur]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

(As a note, despite this being in the gaming forum; the character is based off a historical figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tiptoft,_1st_Earl_of_Worcester) and I'm writing it as a dramatization of historical events. I figure this subforum's emphasis on the creative process made it more applicable than the media subforum.)

Emphasis mine: Oh yes he can. Doesn't make it true, but he can sure as hell make the claim (he may or may not believe it himself, of course), and who's going to argue with a religious authority who mutilates and kills those who get in his way?

You just described the classic corrupt inquisitor. Someone not concerned with justice and truth so much as removing anyone who slips up of line while he's watching.

[Paragon Badger]

A thing to note, he serves the christian god. :smalltongue:

@Lemur: His faith is authentic, or at least his dedication to faith is. I think of the old irish stereotype of a deeply religious catholic who sins on a daily basis. :P

Very frustrating.. I wish England kept some better biographical records aside from family lines. x_x

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If he needs do justify it in his own mind, say that they were politically opposed to his/the Church's rule, and therefore opposed to God's rule, and therefore were God-hating heretics who needed to be purified before they spread their corruption and anti-God/anti-Church principles to anyone else. Make him so self-righteous that he perceives anyone opposed to him as being opposed to God's work that he does, and therefore his enemies are the enemies of God.

[Ravens_cry]

Not the Christian god I worship, but that's another story. I don't want this to turn into a religious thread.

Wow, this guy scares me. I wouldn't call he savage, this kind of evil is much worse then that, but I would call him brutal.Does he feel guilt at the acquiring of the shinies?

[vicente408]

If he needs do justify it in his own mind, say that they were politically opposed to his/the Church's rule, and therefore opposed to God's rule, and therefore were God-hating heretics who needed to be purified before they spread their corruption and anti-God/anti-Church principles to anyone else. Make him so self-righteous that he perceives anyone opposed to him as being opposed to God's work that he does, and therefore his enemies are the enemies of God.

This.

He's blinded by a combination of faith and natural greed/cruelty, and in his mind has combined them both into an extremely dangerous combination of self-righteousness and brutality.

[Human Paragon 3]

He could be like the albino monk from the divinci code, and commit evil acts for God then punish himself through self-flagulation. He knows its evil, he knows it's sinning, and he feels terrible about it. But he doesn't stop, he just whips himself nightly.

Or you could have the sinning priest who is compelled to commit vile acts because he's just crazy and hopes nobody will ever find out, like a modern day pedophile priest.

Or he could be like the Magneto from Marvel 1602. It's not wrong when WE do it, becuase we don't do wrong! God approves when WE do it.

[Ravens_cry]

"To the pure, all things are pure." Titus 1:15 *shudder*
Certain. . .interpretations of that verse could describe this characters emotional state quite well.

[Tsotha-lanti]

What's the conundrum? You describe a historical medieval/renaissance Catholic inquisitor to a tee, really. A learned man of the cloth who has no qualms with - or even enjoys - torture and killing, and does it for profit. Slap on some justifications about the will of the deity and rewards for the righteous (this works out nicely in almost any RPG, since deities do reward piety in the here and now), and you're done.

What do you need to work? It sounds like a classical villain in every way, with countless of examples in media.

Check out Small Gods by Pratchett, and Inquisitor Vorbis therein.

[Prometheus]

A thing to note, he serves the christian god. :smalltongue:
So he's in medieval times and serving the christian god. What's wrong with approximating this with an evil-aligned D&D deity?

[Knaight]

Also he could just view himself as more equal. He views himself as someone who has transcended original sin through education and religion, and everybody else as lesser, because they haven't.

[hamishspence]

Some things we are supposed to be extremely circumspect in talking about.

Best to specify its in D&D context only.

[Innis Cabal]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

(As a note, despite this being in the gaming forum; the character is based off a historical figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tiptoft,_1st_Earl_of_Worcester) and I'm writing it as a dramatization of historical events. I figure this subforum's emphasis on the creative process made it more applicable than the media subforum.)


Why........? I see no duality here.....I see...a politician....

[Lemur]

A thing to note, he serves the christian god. :smalltongue:

@Lemur: His faith is authentic, or at least his dedication to faith is. I think of the old irish stereotype of a deeply religious catholic who sins on a daily basis. :P

Very frustrating.. I wish England kept some better biographical records aside from family lines. x_x

In that case, the next thing I think of is Guard Juris' suggestion of self-flagellation (or some similar punishment). He may enjoy torture, and he may or may not truly feel bad about it, but he continues to punish himself viciously out of a sense of duty or justice.

In fact, this route opens up an interesting route for this guy's psyche: if he genuinely believes he deserves to be punished, than he probably believes that everyone deserves punishment as well (all men are sinners, etc.). This line of thinking would reinforce his torturous practices, since he will not feel so much remorse for maiming and killing people if somewhere in his mind he thinks they deserve it somehow.

Plus since he deliberately harms himself, he will have a much different idea of what level of torture is "appropriate". A sort of "I do this to myself every day, so you should be able to handle something a little bit worse once in your life" kind of thing, which further reduces his sense of sympathy and pity for other people.

[AslanCross]

Not the Christian god I worship, but that's another story. I don't want this to turn into a religious thread.


Same here.

Anyway, I'm sure you'd find other historical figures who fit this character concept.

Torquemada, for example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada)


The Hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the savior of his country, the honor of his order.

That sounds like the typical fanatic paladin. I believe there was also a Web Enhancement on the Wizards site for Exemplars of Evil about an LN inquisitor of St. Cuthbert who loved torture and used it to consolidate his political power. He was followed by an equally fanatic LG half-ogre paladin/gray guard who wore demonic armor. I think the character concept definitely works.

[potatocubed]

The justification I can imagine someone like this using runs as follows:

1. The faith requires me to be nice to people.
2. Some crimes are so great that the criminal forsakes his right to be 'people'.
3. This criminal commited one of those crimes.

4. (2,3) This criminal is no longer 'people'.
5. (1,4) I am not required to be nice to him by my faith.

Basically, it's a form of dehumanising the people you want to hurt. Perhaps the rules of the faith do not protect pagans and heathens. Perhaps those not of the faith have no souls, so they don't count as real people when you're doing moral philosophy. There are probably more justifications.

[Saint Nil]

So he's in medieval times and serving the christian god. What's wrong with approximating this with an evil-aligned D&D deity?

Maybe because the Christian God isn't evil?:smallconfused:

Anyway, most people have hit this hammer on the head. His own greed corrupts his faith, so he interpets passages for his own benefit. Think of the slave masters who preached that slavery was okay.

[vicente408]

Maybe because the Christian God isn't evil?:smallconfused:

Anyway, most people have hit this hammer on the head. His own greed corrupts his faith, so he interpets passages for his own benefit. Think of the slave masters who preached that slavery was okay.

He's implying that the Christian religion in Medieval Europe had many Evil traights.

[afroakuma]

Ever play FFT? The character of Delita shares some similarities.

My own suggestion: His piety and social standing convince him that he is better than other people, such that he is allowed to exploit others for personal gain.

Better example: Judge Claude Frollo from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame. Malicious, sadistic, lustful and hardcore Catholic.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like an amalgam of Torquemada and the Richelieu villain of the Three Musketeers.

How deep into this guy's psyche do you really need to get, anyway? It would seem that, for your purpose, the historical examples you know about would be enough to use this fellow.

[BardicDuelist]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

(As a note, despite this being in the gaming forum; the character is based off a historical figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tiptoft,_1st_Earl_of_Worcester) and I'm writing it as a dramatization of historical events. I figure this subforum's emphasis on the creative process made it more applicable than the media subforum.)

You just described the Spanish Inquisition.

[vicente408]

You just described the Spanish Inquisition.

His players will never expect it, at least.

[Dyvim Matt]

Hi Paragon Badger,

If you're playing in Europe, you have a lot of variety to play with, even though there has been at least two or three religions throughout the Middle Ages, and sometimes even more popes (at the same time!) First of all, what part of the era are we talking about? If you play in the early Middle Ages you have just the Western (Roman) and Eastern (Greek) churches, the former more centralised than the former. Later there will even be a schism in the Western church, splitting it among as many as three popes. The period before 1000 CE in particular is quite interesting as it marks the birth of the "Cleric" as popularized by DnD: mace-wielding men of the cloth who fight for (what they think is) the Grace of God. In fact, look for info on Odo of Bayeux: I'm sure you'll like him!:smallwink: (wikipedia has just as good a description as anyone, and it's short and sweet, although the french version is better than the english one.)

The Renaissance brings the Reformation, and of course a split between Catholics and Protestants. Of course this era sees the birth of the Inquisition, but a Protestant twist on this idea can be fun, perhaps. A few Protestant denominations of the time were really, really not tolerant of what they termed sinful (and let me tell you that list could be long...)

Anyways, hope it helps.

EDIT: I saw your link yo the Earl of Worcester. I don't think my post is relevant to you anymore, but still, do with it as you want...

[Hawriel]

A thing to note, he serves the christian god. :smalltongue:

@Lemur: His faith is authentic, or at least his dedication to faith is. I think of the old irish stereotype of a deeply religious catholic who sins on a daily basis. :P

Very frustrating.. I wish England kept some better biographical records aside from family lines. x_x

Ok you opened the door enough for me to say it. Why do you need help comming up with Ideas on how to play this type of character? You just said he was christian. History if full of priests that are this exact personality type. Just look into well any European political history invavling the church. And the inquesition. Petty cruilty, mony grubbing and personal power is pritty much what alot of priests, bishops cardinals and popes did.

PS oh he didnt just describe the spanish inquesition but all of them. All of europ had them.

[Paragon Badger]

Ok you opened the door enough for me to say it. Why do you need help comming up with Ideas on how to play this type of character?

Because I want to be different? :smalltongue:

The problem is;

He's genuinely of 'the faith', as in, he is very devout and doesn't use religion as a tool. The man isn't even a member of the clergy.

BUT, at the same time, his motivations for personal gain are not veiled in religious 'knight templar'ism. His faith is NOT a motivation for his brutality, political gain is.

So, to sum it up... He doesn't use religion as a tool, and he doesn't kill for religion's sake. He's genuinely desirous of being faithful and simultaneously goes against the very tenants of his religion...

I need a character who is both religious and brutal without falling into the Miko Miyazaki Knight Templar territory. It's tough.

[vicente408]

Well, in the real world, you don't "fall" for violating tenets of your faith. History is also full of people who have done terrible things that violate the basic tenets of their religions while remaining very devout; humans have a remarkable gift for rationalizing or flat-out ignoring their own hypocrisy.

[Prometheus]

It's hard to figure out exactly what you are going for, so let me summarize a list of interactions between religion and evil acts mentioned in this thread and off the top of my head:
-The ends justify the means: Religion is coldly calculated and the souls are collected the most efficient means possible. If fear or tragedy brings people to religion, they are better off for it. This is the justification for the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and the Islamic Caliphates. This is the Miko-paladin.
-Us versus them: Morality is only for religious people to religious people, the other people have lost their rights. This is the justification for slavery, colonialism, and bigotry.
-Fate: God has a plan for this universe, and he put me in control of the plan. Therefore what I do is fated by God. This is the justification behind Divine Right, Manifest Destiny, and not hating God for natural disasters.
-Guilty: The bad things I do are compulsion, I can't help it and I know it is wrong. Therefore, I feel incredibly guilty and beg for forgiveness. Sometimes this involves self-punishment and sometimes is involves indefinite excuses. This may be how people who are religious and criminals/mentally-ill think.
-Business is Business: Religion is for people's personal lives, and when I'm acting in a job/office/role/duty religion either has nothing to do with it or does not have the authority. This is the justification for Corporate Loyalty, Nationalism, Separation of Church and State, politicians who strive to represent their constitutions over their opinion, and strict Constitutionalists.
-Martyr Adversary: We don't know good unless we know evil and it is the fear of becoming the worst that motivates us to be the best. Therefore, I will be evil and inspire people to proactive do good in the world and counteract real evil wherever it exists. This is the justification for the Gnostic text the Gospel of Judas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas) and presumably the reason that God allows Satan to exist.
-Devil you don't know: The pure mind cannot understand the impure mind, but it needs to in order to fix it. Therefore the righteous falls so that it can help others rise. This is hard to find a parallel for, but there are many protagonists who have their darkest hour right before their brightest hour. Frequent theme in undercover-cop dramas and dark action films.
-Devil you do know: My mind is flawed but I can make up for it by preventing others from falling to the same fate. Homophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia#Internalized_homophobia) Homosexual Preachers, Dexter the serial-killer of serial-killers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_(TV_series)), and perhaps Dimmesdale of Scarlet Letter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_letter).

[Coidzor]

Have him be a very active patron of the city/church, since he's a nobleman that's the most you really need of him. Maybe have him be a prominent figure or patron of a civillian religious organization or organizations (think Lion's Club on steroids and Catholicism). I forget what they were called but they were fairly active in Italy.

Definitely sounds more like a "Business is Business" Italian nobleman is what you want. A bit more clarity and we could have avoided all of that spanish inquisition stuff.

And then there's an angle similar to that of the real world knight's chivalric code not applying to those of low station. They're beneath the concern of God, they're only serfs after all... or God loves me and therefore all my foes are on his death list.

[Tsotha-lanti]

There's endless rationalizations you could be using. The simplest one is, really, that he believes himself better than his victims, worthy and deserving of his deity's rewards in the here and now. He's even got a great trump card: "If what I did were offensive to my deity, I wouldn't be able to do it. I am successful at it, therefore I have my deity's support!" (Authentic rationalization. It's only applied selectively, of course - only he can actually tell whose success has the deity's support, and whose success has, for instance, been abetted by devils and demons.)

[LurkerInPlayground]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

(As a note, despite this being in the gaming forum; the character is based off a historical figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tiptoft,_1st_Earl_of_Worcester) and I'm writing it as a dramatization of historical events. I figure this subforum's emphasis on the creative process made it more applicable than the media subforum.)
A lot of people think it's perfectly sane to earn a living off of religious ideals. The thing is that exploitative evangelist fundamentalists sometimes actually believe their professions has a meaningful contribution to society and deserves compensation like any other job. Perhaps moreso, because you're in the business of saving souls. The other secular clap-traps have nothing on that, now do they? To the outsider, this is very obviously greed, but the guy collecting money doesn't necessarily think he's greedy.

Some may even take this further and claim that the *everybody else* has no economic worth. I mean, if you're the chosen people of the "One True God" then you can say that everybody else are just dirty heathens who probably get their money through sinfulness, or at the very least, through methods of the contemptuously mundane and the merely material (ewww!). Maybe your justification is that the peasants are lazy and less pious than they should be. The only sound investment, after all, is when the money goes to things like eternal salvation.

Now you're in a fantasy world where clerics actually *do* have a known economic worth. In his mind, the guy above him is a legitimate employer, just like everybody else. His society might even actively endorse said authoritarian bastard. It also just so happens that his interests and the interests of the employer overlap. A "legitimate" partnership, if you would.

The guy you've just described is the middle management of Big Brother. The character you've described also actually happens to be malicious, which was a big plus on the job interview.

Seriously, you've just described a Scientologist (or any other kind of exploitative religious-type).

You could also just as well have described a Bronze Age medievalist, who rules through fear and myths about his "divine mandate" to rule over his fellow man. You know, how feudalism was usually like when you weren't stuck in stories about the "One Rightful King" or about the "Evil Vizier That Usurped the Kingdom." Nobility evolved out of little more than protection rackets. And more often than not, these guys and their select servants were likely the the people who could enjoy the luxury of an actual education anyway. Riding horses. Swinging swords. Keeping the books and learnin' them letters.

This doesn't really take a whole lot of imagination to see past the apparent "dualism."

Another twist to this is the kind of person who cynically goes along with the belief system because its very highly profitable to exploit, even if he isn't all that religious.

[Telonius]

I need some ideas on how to portray a certain character.

For one, he's highly learned. Also very religious. ...But enjoys executing and torturing people.

Now, you might suggest the classic Miko Miyazaki (God wills it, so killing/being a douche is okay!) style Knight Templar...

But at the same time, most of his killings were politically oriented; ie: for his own personal profit... So it's not like he can claim he was doing God's work.

Thus my conundrum... how do I work with a duality like this?

Have you ever watched any Italian Mafia-type movies? Quite a few of them show at least a scene or two where the mafioso shows up to church and genuinely confesses his sins to the priest, is active in the community, etc. He's part of the religion and genuinely believes it. But that afternoon he's out getting more protection money from the guy down the street. That mafioso is the guy you're trying to play.

[HidaTsuzua]

Have you ever watched any Italian Mafia-type movies? Quite a few of them show at least a scene or two where the mafioso shows up to church and genuinely confesses his sins to the priest, is active in the community, etc. He's part of the religion and genuinely believes it. But that afternoon he's out getting more protection money from the guy down the street. That mafioso is the guy you're trying to play.

I think this is what the OP is trying to get at. Not a vanilla standard Knight Templar or corrupt religious villain. Just some guy who knows what he's doing is wrong but does it anyway. He feels guilt about it in his quiet moments and resolves to do better, but when it comes time that he could actually change he doesn't. You could argue him into submission about the conflict and he'll say that he'll change. Next day however, he'll continue what he was doing out of inertia.

[hamishspence]

"The Devil's Apocrypha" novel has some instreating concepts on why a deity would write certain rules in the first place, and what it might get out of "faith" (energy to keep it powerful, in this case)

As fiction, its pretty interesting, and several of its concepts are consistant with what Prometheus said.

[LotharBot]

So, to get it straight: you have a guy whose religion specifies such things as "don't murder", yet he commits murders, and he doesn't cook up religious excuses for them.

Possible ways to play him:

1) he takes some parts more seriously than others; his priorities are all out of whack. If confronted about murder, he's all "whatever, I don't care about that part." But he's really enthusiastic about caring for the poor or tithing or eating only "clean" foods or whatever.

2) he explains away the don't murder/don't torture parts of his religion as only applying in certain cases (maybe he thinks "murder" only applies to the innocent, and the people who he's killed have been guilty in some way.)

3) he is, quite simply, a bad person, and he knows it. This causes him no end to his guilty feelings, but he simply can't overcome his own badness.

4) he needs to do it for some vague future "greater good". He doesn't know what it is, he only knows that he should gain power, so he's willing to excuse lots of badness to get there.

[hamishspence]

You can create virtually same character, if you want, without the religion. Replace "The Deity" with "The State" or "The Will of the People" or "the Safety of the Kingdom" and you're set.

Many 40k Inquisitors follow this trope, with "The Imperium" replacing "The Emperor" in the minds of the less devout ones.

While I suspect you don't want to do that, the point to be made is it isn't religion alone that makes for Fanaticism- Any "Greater Cause" can do that.

[Devils_Advocate]

He's genuinely of 'the faith', as in, he is very devout and doesn't use religion as a tool. The man isn't even a member of the clergy.

BUT, at the same time, his motivations for personal gain are not veiled in religious 'knight templar'ism. His faith is NOT a motivation for his brutality, political gain is.

So, to sum it up... He doesn't use religion as a tool, and he doesn't kill for religion's sake. He's genuinely desirous of being faithful and simultaneously goes against the very tenants of his religion...

I need a character who is both religious and brutal without falling into the Miko Miyazaki Knight Templar territory. It's tough.
Does he recognize that he's going against the tenets of his own religion? If so, he either believes that he's placing his own immortal soul in danger of damnation but lacks self-control, or he follows a very hardcore "by faith, not by works" interpretation of the gospel, and doesn't believe that avoiding sin is what's really important. Either way, he could feel guilty about what he's doing, or not. (Guilt and fear of hell aren't the same thing.)

If he doesn't recognize that he's going against the tenets of his own religion, then he has a bunch of justifications that what he's doing is somehow OK. Given that he's highly religious, his justifications are probably religious in nature. He needs to achieve a position of power to implement God's will, or something. You've specified that this isn't his motivation, so that means that it's instead his rationalization: He's not really driven by faith, but that's what he tells himself.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Disclaimer: My religious history sucks.


or he follows a very hardcore "by faith, not by works" interpretation of the gospel

Actually, wasn't that an official stance of the... er, Catholic Church or Lutherans, back in the Renaissance? Damned if I can recall.

The Catholics, at least, had pardons (no clue if they still do that?) and the like - basically, the Pope got to decide if you go to Heaven. Good works were irrelevant - only by Jesus' authority, relayed down through the Pope to the priests (confession), could you get to Heaven.

If this character is connected enough, he may have a papal guarantee, or the equivalent, of going to a paradise when he dies, regardless of what he does in life. And that'd be just as true and self-evident to him as the existence of his deity. A medieval priest was, in essence, a magical man who had the power to let you into Heaven. (This was what the Lutherans objected to, obviously - the entire "papally-descended" deal.)

[hamishspence]

I think that it was the Lutherans, or a bit later, that switched from Good works count, to Good Works don't count- at least, the Indulgences issue was one of the big beefs Lutherans had with the other faction.

The "you can be the most wonderful person in the world in every other way, but if you don't believe- dooooown" is, i think- that period.

Before, there was a notion of "virtuous pagans" who got counted as honorary believers despite no contact- Aristotle was the most notable of these.

EDIT: I think a "Disclaimer- this is purely about insuring that we get the historical context correct, for the background of this game" might be a good idea, so thread stays safe.

[Paragon Badger]

Indulgences were around at the time that this character lived in.

And you've all given me much to ponder on... :smalltongue:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Before, there was a notion of "virtuous pagans" who got counted as honorary believers despite no contact- Aristotle was the most notable of these.

OT nit-picking, but didn't the Catholic church effectively retcon Aristotle into a believer by basically adapting all his philosophy and founding their own religious philosophy and "scientific" inquiry on it? His ideas were fundamental to much of church-derived knowledge.

[hamishspence]

Hence, why they call him a "virtuous pagan" despite his predating opportunity to believe in a certain Son of a Supreme Being's activities.

[AgentPaper]

Another idea: Maybe he's just got a black and white view on the world. Evil people are evil by nature, and there's no changing them. You just have to punish them/kill them. Unfortunately for him, he's an evil person. He's so assured that evil people are evil by nature, he believes this. However, somehow, he's got so much willpower that he's managed to keep sane despite his evil nature. He can't stop himself from killing and torturing and being greedy and power-hungry, it's just his nature. However, he's a saint, because he's gotten his evil self to go to church and pray and do a few good deeds. That's more than any other evil person has ever done. He believes and understands the tenants of faith and the ideas of his religion, and upholds them as best he can. It's just too damned bad he was born evil, or he would have be such a great christian!

Also, I'd like to point out that the christian god is indeed evil, by the bible as RAW. The good loving god is only if you read it by RAI. :smallwink:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Also, I'd like to point out that the christian god is indeed evil, by the bible as RAW. The good loving god is only if you read it by RAI. :smallwink:

Slavery, arbitrary death penalties for silly offenses, etc.? That's pretty standard LE deity dogma, isn't it?

The Jesus bits were way more CG though.

[Kalirren]

I need a character who is both religious and brutal without falling into the Miko Miyazaki Knight Templar territory. It's tough.

I once had an NPC whose name was Iluvarn Var'Thyr. If you're familiar with FR, he was a Zhentarim high official and Banite cleric; if that means nothing to you, suffice it to say that his view of the world was that power naturally served to perpetuate the further accumulation of power. He was on top because he happened to be, and he happened to be because he was meant to be, and Gods-be-damned, he was going to do his divinely ordained job well. It was as much his duty to rule within and perpetuate the strength of the ruling heirarchy as it was for others to serve that heirarchy, and he was fully prepared to step down (or equivalently from his perspective, go down fighting alone) were it ever necessary.

He was kind and grateful to his friends, ruthless to his enemies; a generous and visionary leader for those who obeyed him, who did much for the public good; he served his God and his church and watched over his people with unmatched vigilance. Very human, very cruel, but always keen, intelligent, and judicious. He abhorred fanaticism. He did everything he did because he believed that it would result most favorably for everyone that remained.

[hamishspence]

"Even thinking evil acts counts as doing them"

"VERY hard for rich to get into celestial planes"

"Must give up everything- friends, family, job, wealth, and follow"

Paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

[ashmanonar]

A thing to note, he serves the christian god. :smalltongue:

@Lemur: His faith is authentic, or at least his dedication to faith is. I think of the old irish stereotype of a deeply religious catholic who sins on a daily basis. :P

Very frustrating.. I wish England kept some better biographical records aside from family lines. x_x

He would be called an Inquisitor. They certainly existed, both in fiction and reality. Hell, their spiritual descendants still exist today; it can be very easy for someone to subordinate their own humanity for an overarching goal.

[ashmanonar]

Slavery, arbitrary death penalties for silly offenses, etc.? That's pretty standard LE deity dogma, isn't it?

The Jesus bits were way more CG though.

*covers Tsotha-lanti's mouth*

No religious arguments here. None at all.

>.>

[Calinero]

It shouldn't be too hard to make a Christian villain. After all, look at the Crusades! Weren't those fun!

You also have gems like Judge Turpin (Sweeney Todd) to look to, as well as Judge Claude Frollo (Hunchback of Notre Dame.) Yes, both are musical judge examples. Deal with it.

The chief thing they seem to have in common is that they believe the fact that they are doing God's work elevates them above others, makes them more worthy. They are able to justify their misdeeds by saying that their victims are not as good as them, and therefore not as deserving of mercy.

[Raum]

So, to sum it up... He doesn't use religion as a tool, and he doesn't kill for religion's sake. He's genuinely desirous of being faithful and simultaneously goes against the very tenants of his religion...

I need a character who is both religious and brutal without falling into the Miko Miyazaki Knight Templar territory. It's tough.Are you trying to modernize his world view also? If not, it's reasonably simple. As a noble or member of the gentry class he knows he is better than those of a lower station in life. He doesn't simply think he's better, he knows he is. His culture, education, and faith all teach that principle. In many ways peasants aren't really 'people' to him and they're certainly not peers. What he does with or to them is 'for their own good' or simply doesn't matter any more than slaughtering cattle.

Culling your flock or herd is good for the breed. It gets the bad blood out and helps the good traits breed true.

Frankly, he'd feel guilty if he didn't correct the masses harshly. Doing whatever is needed to correct and guide them is his duty.