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Ponce
2008-10-30, 07:40 PM
How would a warforged crusader work out in actual play? Can they heal themselves with their strikes fully or is it effected by the diminished return they get on healing spells as a result of being a living construct? What if they take that improved fortification feat? Seems to me that it works.

Adamantine Body and Improved Fortification seem to be natural choices for feats, but what about after that? Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Shield Ward seem like a good tree to take afterward. It would eat up a lot of feats, especially if you are aiming for lower level play.

All things considered (seeing as how Crusaders are already extremely resilient), it seems to me that a Warforged Crusader would be freaking impossible to kill.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Keld Denar
2008-10-30, 07:46 PM
Crusader strikes heal a warforged at the normal 1-1 basis. This is due to the fact that its moral based, rather than positive energy based healing.

To be the most resiliant you can be, Adamantium Body and Stone Power are awesome. DR gets taken off twice, once when you get hit, and again when your Steely Resolve pool empties, so the more you can get, the better. Stone Power gives you temp hp to pad your Steely Resolve more, since it empties after your turn is over, so you can SP for close to the exact amount of damage that you need, after DR has been factored in.

Yea, its pretty good, as long as you don't try to make your Crusader into a Thicket based reach weapon AoO still-stander, since the -2 dex kind of hurts. As a straight up damage soak, they are pretty awesome though.

Saint Nil
2008-10-30, 07:51 PM
No, I don't think it would be able to heal itself. You wouldn't try to heal a golem like this, would you? Its much like the cure spell. Constructs need mending. Par him up with an artifcer, and they can work well togther. Artificer boosts him, while he protects/heals the artificer. Crusaders make for great bodyguards.

RTGoodman
2008-10-30, 08:39 PM
No, I don't think it would be able to heal itself. You wouldn't try to heal a golem like this, would you? Its much like the cure spell. Constructs need mending. Par him up with an artifcer, and they can work well togther. Artificer boosts him, while he protects/heals the artificer. Crusaders make for great bodyguards.

I don't think so - Keld Denar has it right here. It's been confirmed in various official (or almost-official, at least) sources that the healing provided by various Crusader abilities is non-magical and does provide full benefit to Warforged. I'll go look for the actual quote in a moment. Remember, Warforged only take half healing from spells from the Conjuration (Healing) school (or something like that).

EDIT: The RAW on Warforged says "However, spells from the healing sub-school and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." The Crusader's strikes, unless otherwise notes, aren't from the (Healing) sub-school and aren't supernatural, so they're fine.

I can't seem to find the FAQ, Sage Advice, or ToB entry that specifically allows it, but I KNOW I've seen it somewhere.

Vortling
2008-10-30, 09:47 PM
How would a warforged crusader work out in actual play? Can they heal themselves with their strikes fully or is it effected by the diminished return they get on healing spells as a result of being a living construct? What if they take that improved fortification feat? Seems to me that it works.

Adamantine Body and Improved Fortification seem to be natural choices for feats, but what about after that? Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Shield Ward seem like a good tree to take afterward. It would eat up a lot of feats, especially if you are aiming for lower level play.

All things considered (seeing as how Crusaders are already extremely resilient), it seems to me that a Warforged Crusader would be freaking impossible to kill.

Thoughts/suggestions?

I'm playing a Warforged Crusader in a game right now. Adamantine body works very well. I've found that extra granted maneuver and stone power are more useful than trying to run the Shield tree. Crusaders are fairly resilient even without shields. The really important boost for crusaders is being able to hit reliably. It helps a lot if you have someone in the party to help you flank.

Warforged are healed normally from the crusader strikes simply because they're non-magical healing and based off morale.

You are correct in saying that they are very hard to kill but don't underestimate what Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers can do for the rest of the party.

Ponce
2008-10-30, 09:58 PM
I can't seem to find the FAQ, Sage Advice, or ToB entry that specifically allows it, but I KNOW I've seen it somewhere.

Perhaps it was a custserv response someone posted somewhere?


I'm playing a Warforged Crusader in a game right now. Adamantine body works very well. I've found that extra granted maneuver and stone power are more useful than trying to run the Shield tree. Crusaders are fairly resilient even without shields. The really important boost for crusaders is being able to hit reliably. It helps a lot if you have someone in the party to help you flank.

Warforged are healed normally from the crusader strikes simply because they're non-magical healing and based off morale.

You are correct in saying that they are very hard to kill but don't underestimate what Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers can do for the rest of the party.

The number of feats required by the shield tree does seem rather unmanageable if one hopes to also have the Warforged feats. Dipping into Warblade, if for nothing else other than Ironheart Surge, also seems like a good idea.

Vortling
2008-10-30, 10:19 PM
The number of feats required by the shield tree does seem rather unmanageable if one hopes to also have the Warforged feats. Dipping into Warblade, if for nothing else other than Ironheart Surge, also seems like a good idea.

If you're going to do that make sure you talk with your DM about it first. Ironheart Surge is poorly defined and it's pretty much up to your DM as to what he'll let it affect.

Waspinator
2008-10-30, 11:42 PM
Yeah, that Surge is the one bad part of ToB. It desperately needs houseruling to put some limits and not have it be the ultimate "get out of jail free" card.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-30, 11:56 PM
I dunno, I like the idea of a Vampire Warblade using Iron Heart Surge to put out the sun...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-31, 12:10 AM
Yeah, that Surge is the one bad part of ToB. It desperately needs houseruling to put some limits and not have it be the ultimate "get out of jail free" card.And to make it work against the stuff it is supposed to work on(Dominate, Charm Person).

monty
2008-10-31, 12:27 AM
I would argue that it's not quite that broken, since the sun doesn't have a measured duration and therefore doesn't fulfill the "1 or more rounds" requirement.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-31, 12:32 AM
I would argue that it's not quite that broken, since the sun doesn't have a measured duration and therefore doesn't fulfill the "1 or more rounds" requirement.

The sun doesn't. Sunlight, however, does last for 1 or more rounds. Specifically, (10x60x24xhowever many billion years the sun is active) rounds - Iron Heart Surge is used to end sunlight.:smallbiggrin:

Waspinator
2008-10-31, 01:02 AM
I dunno, I like the idea of a Vampire Warblade using Iron Heart Surge to put out the sun...

Yeah, the fact that that interpretation is possible under the current wording is why it needs house ruling.


Anyway, I think the interpretation that Warforged get full benefit from Crusader healing is correct. It's just the "healing living things with positive energy" kind of healing that they partially resist and most of the Crusader abilities don't mention that at all.

Darrin
2008-10-31, 09:06 AM
Thoughts/suggestions?

Take Stone Power and Lady's Gambit:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lady~s_Gambit,

Sacrifice 10 HP to Lady's Gambit for +5 hit/+5 damage. These go into Steely Resolve for 1 round, where you get an additional +2 hit/+2 damage. Activate Stone Power for -5 hit, and you get 10 temp HP to absorb the 10 damage from Lady's Gambit. Keep doing this every round, and you have +2 hit/+7 damage on all your attacks. It's not restricted to melee, either... works with ranged attacks if you like.

monty
2008-10-31, 10:15 AM
The sun doesn't. Sunlight, however, does last for 1 or more rounds. Specifically, (10x60x24xhowever many billion years the sun is active) rounds - Iron Heart Surge is used to end sunlight.:smallbiggrin:

Yes, but until you show me where in the description of sunlight it gives that figure, it doesn't have a duration.

Come on, it's broken enough anyway..
Aah, a Hold Person! Iron Heart Surge!
Aah, an Antimagic Field! Iron Heart Surge!
Aah, a Storm of Vengeance! Iron Heart Surge!

When you can negate 9th level spells with a more or less at-will ability, that's already pretty good.

Zephyros
2008-10-31, 10:20 AM
@Darrin

Well u can do that at around 10 level and you have to suck it up and take Iron Will (on a crusader somewhat useless), before that you take minuses to attack.
So...that's the catch.

Keld Denar
2008-10-31, 11:17 AM
Come on, it's broken enough anyway..
Aah, a Hold Person! Iron Heart Surge!


Actually, read the section on initiating maneuvers. You have to be able to move to activate them, so no, you couldn't IHS off a Hold Person. About the only things it works against are Slow, lesser Fear effects, Sickened (but not Nausiated), Fatigued, Exhausted or Blinded/Deafened. If you were Dazed or Stunned, Held, Charmed or Dominated, Nausiated, or Paniced, you either don't have a standard action to activate it, the ability to move to activate it, or the free will to activated it, then it can't help you.

Darrin
2008-10-31, 11:40 AM
@Darrin

Well u can do that at around 10 level and you have to suck it up and take Iron Will (on a crusader somewhat useless), before that you take minuses to attack.
So...that's the catch.

The combo actually kicks in around ECL 6 for +1 attack/+6 damage, but yeah, it costs three feats. Even for a non-Crusader without Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike, you don't take any penalties on attack, since every -1 attack gives you 2 HP to convert into +1 attack/+1 damage. And it doesn't scale up beyond ECL 10, since Stone Power maxes out at 10 temp HP.

monty
2008-10-31, 12:19 PM
About the only things it works against are Slow, lesser Fear effects, Sickened (but not Nausiated), Fatigued, Exhausted or Blinded/Deafened.

And numerical debuffs (i.e. Doom), ongoing damage effects (Acid Arrow), non-instantaneous area spells (Antimagic Field), etc...it's much better than you think it is.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-31, 12:25 PM
Yes, but until you show me where in the description of sunlight it gives that figure, it doesn't have a duration.

Come on, it's broken enough anyway..
Aah, a Hold Person! Iron Heart Surge!
Aah, an Antimagic Field! Iron Heart Surge!
Aah, a Storm of Vengeance! Iron Heart Surge!

When you can negate 9th level spells with a more or less at-will ability, that's already pretty good.

Hmm....well, sunlight doesn't have a rules-codified description, true, but it can be derived implicitly from the section on vampire weaknesses:


Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.

Since it takes more than one round for a vampire to be destroyed by direct sunlight, that empirically proves that sunlight does have a duration of more than one round.:smallcool:

And yes, the irony that IHS cannot break a Hold Person, but can destroy an epic ward, is staggering. (Unless the Warblade recovers IHS and uses it against to remove the Staggered condition...:smallbiggrin:)

monty
2008-10-31, 12:28 PM
Hmm....well, sunlight doesn't have a rules-codified description, true, but it can be derived implicitly from the section on vampire weaknesses:

So now we're into implicit differentiation? Your math tricks won't work on me.:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I think that's starting to get outside of RAW, in which case the obvious RAI is you can't put out the sun with a 3rd level maneuver.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-31, 12:34 PM
Sorry, I just came off a calculus exam, my brain vocabulary is still locked in to "math stuff".

Neither RAI nor RAW are being disputed here - our goal is to plumb the deepest depths of the RAF (Rules as FUNNY!):smallsmile:

Duke of URL
2008-10-31, 12:41 PM
The Crusader's strikes, unless otherwise notes, aren't from the (Healing) sub-school and aren't supernatural, so they're fine.

Right. Maneuvers and stances are (Ex) abilities unless specifically noted.

Scribble
2008-11-30, 03:59 PM
Okay, this is the more recent thread on the whole Crusader with Lady's Gambit idea so I figure this is less of necromancy than the one from 2007.

Anyway, I don't think that damage you sacrifice to activate Lady's Gambit goes into your Steely Resolve pool.

While Lady's Gambit does say that you lose the hit points "as if you had lost them to damage" Steely Resolve states "When an opponent strikes you." and "When you are attacked any hit point damage the blow deals is added to your delayed damage pool".

So going from this is looks like only damage you take from an opponent attacking you goes into the pool. It doesn't look like damage from sacrificing HP yourself, even though it is taken as loss from damage, counts since you are doing it to yourself.