OOTS #604 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[ColonelFuster]

Classic. Haha, the economy.

[Shadic]

Awesome!

Run Celia, run!

[MReav]

Cute. Go Celia, distraction FTW.

Loot concerns aside, what is their interest in Celia?

[ColonelFuster]

"loot aside"? These are rogues, dude.

DM-played rogues.

[SPoD]

Loot concerns aside, what is their interest in Celia?

She owes their paying client, Grubwiggler, one corpse (preferably hers). They intend to retrieve it for him.

[MReav]

"loot aside"? These are rogues, dude.

DM-played rogues.

Yes, but they were interested in her before the loot became apparent.

[Nevitan]

Man, they're all so Civil towards each other...

besides the melee and shooting, they're all so Civil towards each other!

Great comic, worth staying up for:smallbiggrin:

[Kinneus]

Heh, first time the comic's ever updated while I was reading it.
Wouldn't a better tactic be for Celia to use non-lethal spells on some of the enemies? She's a sorcerer, correct? And it seems to me like a sorcerer who is so adamantly against violence would choose some non-lethal spells... Glimmerdust, maybe? Grease? Sleep? Obscuring Mist was a pretty good choice...
Maybe, since she's a sylph, she doesn't get to choose her spells, but still. She must have -something- to throw at them while she buzzes around, doing her best not to get stabbed.

[Mauve Shirt]

I love how they're just talking while they do this, matter-of-factly. :smallbiggrin:

[memnarch]

Very clever idea there. :smallcool:

[Half-blood]

Impressive. filler text filler text

[SPoD]

She must have -something- to throw at them while she buzzes around, doing her best not to get stabbed.

She probably does, and we'll see it next time. Everything can't be crammed into the same strip, you know.

[AlterForm]

POWERRRRR ATTAAAAAAACK!

Ahhh, economics. :smallcool:

[Frosty]

Doesn't she have some sort of lightning attack she can use on the rogues?

[Liwen]

Excellent use of the skill profession(Lawyer/clever shady manupulation) skill Celia!

[chiasaur11]

Way to be a jerk, Hank.

Also, Celia: Nice helpfulness.

[Kranden]

lol humor.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

OK, that was brilliant!

Celia, nice job puttin' that high fallutin' schoolin' to work for you. Hopefully Haley can recover in time to keep her from getting caught.

Hard economic times, indeed.

Nicely done, Rich!

[Bitzeralisis]

Ah, yes, an allusion to the economy. Unsubtle yet crafty. :smalltongue:

[xyzzy]

Ha! Good job, Celia.

POST ATTACK!

[nosignal]

I can't help but wonder where the other guild members are, and whether Celia's going to fly herself into a cul-de-sac.

[Lizard Lord]

Doesn't she have some sort of lightning attack she can use on the rogues?

Does lightning bolt require a reflex save? If so, hers is most likely not that high. Rogues have an ability called evasion that lets them take no damage on a successful reflex save (in cases where they would normally take half damage).

[Resist77]

It's a shame Belkar wasn't present. It would have been interesting to see how he reacted fighting another halfling.

[Lord Seth]

I didn't find this comic that funny, except for Haley suddenly healing her wounds when mentioning she could've dodged it (which was already done in an early strip) and the "Power attack!" (which was funny, but not too funny). Honestly, I was expecting a double-length strip considering how long a time there was between the strips.

Then again, I've been dissatisfied by this entire arc, because it involved Celia getting the Idiot Ball for no reason other than to drag this plotline out.

I'm just hoping that we can finish with this quickly and finally get back to the plot of getting Roy rezzed so we can finally get back to the plot we haven't done anything with in about 100 comics.

[Phae Nymna]

Hehehe. Hehehehahaha... HEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh the economy, poor, dead, economy.

[Jonathan327]

The fighter program's something interesting I wouldn't have guessed--gives the Guild plenty of muscle for shaking down the town, and certainly helped here.

Hopefully the capture lines'll keep our sylph safe.

[B.I.T.T.]

"How many ways to make a cloud does one magic system need?"....that cracked me up.

As usual, good comic.

[David Argall]

So far the fight goes as expected. [and as expected, in unexpected ways] Haley is making a good fight of it, but is getting beat up. We still must wait to see if V shows, Durkon gets the message, or ...

[Calmness]

Man, that halfling is slick.

[Bongos]

So excellent!

[Leewei]

Funny comic!

Erm, picking a nit here, but doesn't Sneak Attack require you to clearly see your target?

[eras10]

So, if I was Bozzok, I'd be wondering: #1 I wonder what they wanted with that cleric? #2 What are the odds it's good for me? #3 Hmm... Haley, check. Companion, check. Where is that dude, huh?

I'm not counting on them to have that plot-inconvenient level of insight, but it would make for an impressive twist if that's what Crystal was currently looking into. I instead predict that she makes a frontal assault debut in the near future.

I liked this one, not b/c it was hilarious, but b/c it was interesting.

[Lumenadducere]

Heh, good stuff. Hope it doesn't wind up backfiring and harming Celia.

[Warlord JK]

Reading comics with the Thieve's Guild always make me want to play a rogue :smallbiggrin:

Great comic, but I wonder if the fighter or a rogue might kill Celia as foreshadowed in 603...

[Weiser_Cain]

I still think this will end poorly...

[Angela Christine]

So, if I was Bozzok, I'd be wondering: #1 I wonder what they wanted with that cleric? #2 What are the odds it's good for me? #3 Hmm... Haley, check. Companion, check. Where is that dude, huh?


It has been a few days for us, but it has only been a few rounds for them. Not more than a minute or two. Bozzok will probably wonder about it before the 10 minute casting time is up, but it isn't odd that he hasn't freaked out about it yet.

[Thoughtbot360]

Wackiest. chase scene. EVER

[Nitan]

An 8th level flunky? That's one hardcore guild.

[Super_slash2]

I love The Thieves' Guild.
I love Hank as well. His character is quite amazing.
The Chase Scene, meh. That just gives Haley that much more time to get prepared and the same tricks won't work twice. It's in-character for Thieves but I hope the following fight scenes and tricks are still fast-paced.

Good comic overall. If not least for Celia actually giving a hand in the fighting after so many strips.

[Ramien]

An 8th level flunky? That's one hardcore guild.

You didn't think they were going to send in everyone after Haley, did you? This is the 'rogue rogue removal regiment'! The real low level flunkies are still busy committing their usual petty thieveries.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You didn't think they were going to send in everyone after Haley, did you? This is the 'rogue rogue removal regiment'! The real low level flunkies are still busy committing their usual petty thieveries.

And we musn't forget Crystal, who is an even-level Assassin to Haley.

An assassin, I might add, who hasn't revealed herself yet :smallamused:

Also: I, for one, found Hank's casual tumbling hilarious. It is funny 'cause it's true - I mean, when was the last time your high-level Rogue walked anywhere? :smalltongue:

[dps]

"Awww, Hank, all the rogues get to say something when THEY attack!"

Great line.

[Warren Dew]

Haley and Celia seem to be working together really well - nice!

I like how Haley dodges by saying the dodge while standing there.

[Starscream]

Awesome strip. Nice to see Celia being effective, and to see that someone actually remembered about Uncanny Dodge. And my characters are now officially going to start yelling Power Attack.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Awesome strip. Nice to see Celia being effective, and to see that someone actually remembered about Uncanny Dodge. And my characters are now officially going to start yelling Power Attack.

Start? Dude, a guy I game with won't let his Blackguard attack with out saying that. Generally he adds how many points he's pouring into it. ;-)

My Crusader just enjoys any opportunity to smash something with his Ancient Mountain Hammer maneuver (w00t to the additional 12d6 damage). ;-)

[Red XIV]

I can't help but wonder where the other guild members are, and whether Celia's going to fly herself into a cul-de-sac.
Being able to fly makes it a lot harder to get cornered, though.

[Shott]

Ha! Loved the POWER ATTACK!

[Stormthorn]

I tend to feel sorry for those mooks the heroes mow down. In the DnD game im in when my character can afford it he's buying a Merciful weapon. +1d6 damage and no killing unless i suppress the power and coup-de-grace their uncounscous asses.

[RebelRogue]

Ooh, lots of good, rules-based jokes + a hilarious chase scene. Worth the wait! :smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

Actually, I am dissipointed in Hank. He was pretty much Haley's only friend in the guild and she did show some ..... for him by skewering everyone BUT him and he followed through against her. There was opportunity for him to banter a bit and NOT end up in a fight.

[Georlik]

The burning issues of the day. :smallbiggrin: Not as good as previous two, but still...

[brionl]

Their fighter buddy must have a few levels too, if he's able to power attack and still hit Haley with her (presumed) high dodge bonus and stuff.

[dish]

Nice economic joke, nice 'Power Attack', nice dodge. Just needs more epic. I also wonder when Crystal's going to show up.

[jakepython]

First post comin' atcha.

Nobody wants to mention this? Maybe it's the numerous finance and economics courses I'm taking but this was so much more to me. There was lots of current yet subtle references to not just the economy as a whole but specifically to the Investment Bank bailout proposed by Hank Paulson (no coincidence methinks to a character named Hank). No one makes financial jokes these days. Not even Patton. Good job OOTS!

My arrogance gets the better of me. More info here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_bailout_of_U.S._financial_system_(2008))

[dish]

First post comin' atcha.

Nobody wants to mention this? Maybe it's the numerous finance and economics courses I'm taking but this was so much more to me. There was lots of current yet subtle references to not just the economy as a whole but specifically to the Investment Bank bailout proposed by Hank Paulson (no coincidence methinks to a character named Hank). No one makes financial jokes these days. Not even Patton. Good job OOTS!

My arrogance gets the better of me. More info here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_bailout_of_U.S._financial_system_(2008))

While it's great that Rich makes jokes about it, it's difficult for us to discuss since the discussion could easily fall over into 'real-life politics' and that topic is not permitted on this forum.

[Hamilkar]

In these tough economic times...
Bailout Plan....

Brilliant !!!

[Gidion]

Since no one else has mentioned it I would like to complement the art in this strip. The fog looks really fantastic.

[Gez]

When Hank makes that comment on concealment, it reminded me that sneak attacks cannot be made if there is any amount of concealment. :smallwink:

(Not that it really matters. Story first.)

[Grunjon]

Cool interweaving of real-life current events as a joke in the story. Cool story advancement. Cool, creepy art (I esp. like the fog/mist for a Halloween-day post!). Cool lines for Haley and Celia, and cool that Roy both cares for Celia and retains his leadership analysis. And cool D&D jokes above all else.

Overall, a very cool installment! :smallbiggrin:

[Lee]

Funny comic!

Erm, picking a nit here, but doesn't Sneak Attack require you to clearly see your target?

Point blank sneak attack?

Surely that would be close enough too see someone through a bit of mist :)

[ref]

Hehe, The Giant does it again. Let's see if Celia's bailout plan works. But there's Crystal somewhere and as you might remember, she gets to kill Haaaaaaaley, she gets to kill Haaaaaaaley... :smallbiggrin: :smallyuk:

[Holammer]

"Awwww, Hank, all the rogues get to say something when THEY attack!"
Yor is my new favourite fighter in the comic. :smallwink:

[wocky]

Point blank sneak attack?

Surely that would be close enough too see someone through a bit of mist :)

Point blank is at 30' or less. The fog fives concealment, and you can't sneak attack concealed targets...

... would have to check, but that fog probably doesn't give concealment at 5', which would enable a sneak attack. Shooting a ranged weapon at 5' can cause an AoO, except if she used the concealment granted by the fog to hide (and hence sneak)... so it seems possible.

[Vulion]

Woot! Go Celia!

...please survive.

Great comic, Giant!

[no0ps]

Celia can't die. At least not until Roy's back, so they can have an emotional get back together scene. And realise they're not right for each other at all...

Well, I liked this one, and don't know much about the rules but would have thought sneak was easier in the fog... :smalltongue:

Thanks Giant!

[Fraxinus]

I have a feeling that Celia is going to end up in a sort of cul-de-sac, and it seems I'm not the only one. Wait, wait, I have a second feeling... :smallwink: and it's about Celia avoiding getting killed (or banished via lethal wound, if you prefer :smallbiggrin:) in a smart way, possibly with some suspence.

Anyway, I like the D&D rules jokes, as always!

[Shatteredtower]

...that was it? Okay, sure, I could see it taking a week to work out the art to show mist, but the writing was weak. The economy shot was as cheap and easy as kicking someone's crutches out from under them while they're trying to move quickly. Hopefully, the next one will be better.


When Hank makes that comment on concealment, it reminded me that sneak attacks cannot be made if there is any amount of concealment. :smallwink:

(Not that it really matters. Story first.)

Actually, it matters quite a bit, since it cripples the Improved Uncanny Dodge gag. Taking liberties with a rule for story purposes works better if you don't immediately turn around and make a big deal out of another aspect of the same class feature.

[Deepkicker]

POWER ATTACK!
Priceless...

[Blaznak]

I thought it was a very clever strip. Apparently Law School has paid off for Celia in building her Pursuade/Bluff/BS skills. I think she and Haley worked pretty good as a team!

HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY!

[RMS Oceanic]

...that was it? Okay, sure, I could see it taking a week to work out the art to show mist, but the writing was weak. The economy shot was as cheap and easy as kicking someone's crutches out from under them while they're trying to move quickly. Hopefully, the next one will be better.

I'm getting Comic #600 vibes off this post. There seems to be a belief that if we have to wait a week for an update, it's gonna be awesome. You're assuming Rich spends his every waking hour working on this comic. For all we know, he had other things to do or, God forbid, he had an acute attack of his illness.

As for the concealment thing, there is no concealment in fog when standing next to the person, as seen here. Haley didn't provoke an attack of opportunity because they weren't aware of her attack, and so couldn't respond to it.

[Saph]

Awesome comic. Worth the wait. :)

I'd still like to see the main plot get moving again and the Order re-unite, but as long as there are good action scenes like this one, I'm happy.

- Saph

[Moechi_Vill]

What a slim plot reason to abandon a victorious outcome and risk death by the same individuals later. I think it would have been better to cut down on the joke and up the logical consistency for this one.

[Shatteredtower]

I'm getting Comic #600 vibes off this post.
This is getting to be a bad habit for you. Probably best to get over it.


There seems to be a belief that if we have to wait a week for an update, it's gonna be awesome.

I expect it to be good. This was not up to the standard in terms of writing. The writer's personal life is his own business, as he himself has clearly declared, but that also means that it is not your place to make excuses for him when that writing is sub-par.


As for the concealment thing, there is no concealment in fog when standing next to the person, as seen here.

There is when the other person is also standing in the fog, as is shown in the strip. The rules are clear on that point.


Haley didn't provoke an attack of opportunity because they weren't aware of her attack, and so couldn't respond to it.
Attacks of opportunity are irrelevant to the discussion. This is about performing sneak attacks against opponents with concealment.

[Pandabear]

Bit of a shame about the economy jokes there, but otherwise, interesting strip..

[Slayn82]

Attacks of opportunity are irrelevant to the discussion. This is about performing sneak attacks against opponents with concealment.

Maybe an ilusion of mist? It could work well against a bunch of thieves and warriors, with those bad will saves. And would not trouble Halley.

[Starknight]

There is one problem with Celia flying in Greysky City, she PROBABLY doesn't know her way around, so yes it is possible her to get cornered in a cul-du-sac. On the flip side, she can FLY. There are three dimensions; length, width, and height (well four considering time, but that is a physics debate). If Celia gets in trouble, she can always fly straight up. (Which would be an aversion on tvtropes.org. Hint, Hint Giant) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallcool.gif

Starknight

[Alces]

... Cool, creepy art (I esp. like the fog/mist for a Halloween-day post!). ...Overall, a very cool installment! :smallbiggrin:

Fog's clammy rather than cool... :smalltongue:

[the_tick_rules]

Yeah, fighters need to get some flare to.

[HOLEkevin]

Times are tough all over! (I wonder if the Thieves Guild is receiving and financial bailout money?)

[Kcalehc]

...that was it? Okay, sure, I could see it taking a week to work out the art to show mist, but the writing was weak. The economy shot was as cheap and easy as kicking someone's crutches out from under them while they're trying to move quickly. Hopefully, the next one will be better.

And your webcomic is better, right?


Actually, it matters quite a bit, since it cripples the Improved Uncanny Dodge gag. Taking liberties with a rule for story purposes works better if you don't immediately turn around and make a big deal out of another aspect of the same class feature

Perhaps haley has a 'see through mist exceptionally well' feat... or something.

[Yoyoyo]

Times are tough all over! (I wonder if the Thieves Guild is receiving and financial bailout money?)

There is an investment banker/thief joke to be made there somewhere, but I'll leave that to the Giant.:smallbiggrin:

Another good strip, and I don't think we are getting away from the plot. I feel like we are finally getting closer to rezzing Roy and returning to the Gate story line, even if that might take another 30 or so strips. But I agree with a lot of the others, this will not end well for somebody. Since Haley is already getting "bailed out" what happens when she meets her nemesis?

[Lord Seth]

And your webcomic is better, right?Huh, last time I checked, it wasn't necessary to make a webcomic to be able to judge a webcomic (by your logic, you can never review or criticize a movie unless you've made one). That's honestly a really silly comeback.

[Shatteredtower]

Huh, last time I checked, it wasn't necessary to make a webcomic to be able to judge a webcomic (by your logic, you can never review or criticize a movie unless you've made one). That's honestly a really silly comeback.

That about sums it up. Thank you.

Look, if other people like it, great. I consider it well below the Giant's usual standards, and don't feel inclined to spare the feelings of readers who'd prefer a greater amount of tact in the dissent.

[TerrickTerran]

Great comic and Hank now ranks just behind Tsukiko and Leeky for favorite secondary character in my book.

[nowiwantmydmg]

Meh. Okay strip, a bit below par I'd say, hopefully the next is better.

[Ron Miel]

I also found this particular strip to be below the usual standards. Most of the strips he does are better than this particular one.

It's not clear where the fog came from. Who exactly cast the spell? And why? Maybe it'll be revealed in the next strip.

I can suspend my disbelief and accept stories about magic and women with wings. But somehow I just can't accept that such a childish lie would fool them for a second. Especially as Celia says that they all know what they're trying to pull. Yeah, so they know that she's lying, but play along with it anyway? No, somehow I just can't accept that as realistic. I didn't buy it in 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)and I don't buy it here either.

What does "soul patch" mean?

[lord_khaine]

Look, if other people like it, great. I consider it well below the Giant's usual standards, and don't feel inclined to spare the feelings of readers who'd prefer a greater amount of tact in the dissent

ok, no sparing of feelings it is then, in that case i will just comment that i found the comic to up on the usual standart.


There is when the other person is also standing in the fog, as is shown in the strip. The rules are clear on that point.

except we dont know how thick the fog is, the strip doesnt show anything about how far apart you need to be to get sneak attack, since the lv 8 rogue was proberly using flaking to get his sneak attack.


Attacks of opportunity are irrelevant to the discussion. This is about performing sneak attacks against opponents with concealment

so the logical conclussion should then be that none of those who got hit by a sneak attack had any concealment.

[Scarlet Knight]

Man, they're all so Civil towards each other...

besides the melee and shooting, they're all so Civil towards each other!



Ah! So this is the "honor among thieves" I keep hearing about....

[Shatteredtower]

ok, no sparing of feelings it is then, in that case i will just comment that i found the comic to up on the usual standart.

No need to restate the obvious.


except we dont know how thick the fog is...

You do if you've read the spell description.


so the logical conclussion should then be that none of those who got hit by a sneak attack had any concealment.

The spell grants concealment to everyone standing within its area of effect. Being hidden and having concealment are two different things. Don't misuse the word "logical" like that.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

Celia can't die. At least not until Roy's back, so they can have an emotional get back together scene.

Or we can have a hot get back together scene :smallwink:

[Ron Miel]

You do if you've read the spell description.

But which spell, though: Fog Cloud, Obscuring Mist, or Solid Fog? Not that I've read the description for any of them.

[unithom]

Celia can't die. At least not until Roy's back, so they can have an emotional get back together scene.

Haven't you seen Ghost?

Well, neither have I, but we still know what part I'm talking about.

[Blanth]

Haven't you seen Ghost?

Well, neither have I, but we still know what part I'm talking about.

Do you think there's a Pottery guild in Greysky? :smalltongue:

[Taekwondodo]

You really shouldn't leave that much concealment floating around, incedentally. Made me LOL!

Good strip Giant, keep us coming back for more.

[Doopliss]

I get a kick out of the Sneak Attack wound just vanishing due to Improved Uncanny Dodge.:smallbiggrin:

[Querzis]

It's not clear where the fog came from. Who exactly cast the spell? And why? Maybe it'll be revealed in the next strip.

You really need to read the comic again. Its obviously Celia who did it so that Haley could sneak up on them.


I can suspend my disbelief and accept stories about magic and women with wings. But somehow I just can't accept that such a childish lie would fool them for a second. Especially as Celia says that they all know what they're trying to pull. Yeah, so they know that she's lying, but play along with it anyway? No, somehow I just can't accept that as realistic. I didn't buy it in 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)and I don't buy it here either.

...Thats the whole point. They dont really believe it. They just dont especially care. If they have any chance to steal money or magic items without Bozzok knowing it they are gonna take it.

Anyway, cool one. I really like Hank and his lackey. I guess Hank had no problems with helping Haley in Origins but hes obviously not gonna go directly against Bozzok order for her. Fair enough.

[Shatteredtower]

But which spell, though: Fog Cloud, Obscuring Mist, or Solid Fog?

All of them, surprisingly enough. There are variations in the various mist spells, but they're also tediously similar in others, as the Giant notes.


Not that I've read the description for any of them.

And I wouldn't mind so much if the Giant bent the rules on their use here... if Improved Uncanny Dodge didn't try to enforce them again a line down. On the other hand, if Slayn82 is correct and this is an illusion, I'm forced to concede that the trick might be able to work. I consider it to violate the spirit of the illusion rules (no duplicating the effects of other spells unless the spell description states otherwise), but the general interpretation seems to accept it.

[Extispex]

The spell grants concealment to everyone standing within its area of effect. Being hidden and having concealment are two different things. Don't misuse the word "logical" like that.

It is irrelevant, because the rules have been bent and broken before. The rules adapt to the story, not vice versa.

[T-O-E]

You probably won't read this but...
Typo in panel 5, Hank left an 'n' out of 'shouldn't'.

[Ron Miel]

You really need to read the comic again. Its obviously Celia who did it so that Haley could sneak up on them.

Has she ever shown any such ability before?

[Querzis]

Has she ever shown any such ability before?

...Shes a sorcerer man. Of course she can do that. Look maybe you just arent familiar with D&D so every time you see someone cast a spell, any spell, then it means that character can also cast a dozens spells you never saw him cast before. We never saw all the spells Durkon or V could cast if they would want to either.

Hell, even if Celia woudnt be a sorcerer, shes a sylph. An air elemental. And obscuring mist is an air spell. So she doesnt even need her sorcerer levels to do that.

[KIDS]

So many alusions to everything... and the title was a big win!

[hamishspence]

An air outsider, but yes, sylphs from MM2 come with HD+ 4 levels of sorcerer built into them (3 for base sylph), and further levels will stack with this for spellcasting purposes. (check dragons with sorcerer levels in various sourcebooks for confirmation of this) Wouldn't stack for familiar purposes though.

so if celia had a familiar, and had not been Advanced in HD, and was, say a 4th level sorcerer, would work as follows:

Familiar gets powers as if caster was 4th level

Celia's casting would be as 11th level sorcerer.

However, if she has neither been advanced nor given character levels, her sorcerer caster level would be 7.

Sylphs advance to a maximum of nine HD (without houseruling), so, if Celia has no character levels, her max caster level is, as 12th level sorcerer.

[Linkavitch]

It's a shame Belkar wasn't present. It would have been interesting to see how he reacted fighting another halfling.

He woulda just killed him anyway. Nice, Giant!:amused: Like the crack about the economy!:biggrin:

[Lord Seth]

I also found this particular strip to be below the usual standards. Most of the strips he does are better than this particular one.

It's not clear where the fog came from. Who exactly cast the spell? And why? Maybe it'll be revealed in the next strip.

I can suspend my disbelief and accept stories about magic and women with wings. But somehow I just can't accept that such a childish lie would fool them for a second. Especially as Celia says that they all know what they're trying to pull. Yeah, so they know that she's lying, but play along with it anyway? No, somehow I just can't accept that as realistic. I didn't buy it in 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)and I don't buy it here either.

What does "soul patch" mean?At least 106 played it for comedy and kind of hand waved it as a failed bluff check. I suppose one could argue this one's playing it for comedy, but when you're done the same joke as before and doing it worse, it doesn't work so well. (kind of like how strip 600 repeated strip 100's punchline, only it did it worse)

[strangelander]

Hmm... does this mean that the Munez twins are (one of) the cleric waiting below?

[Warren Dew]

I'm getting Comic #600 vibes off this post. There seems to be a belief that if we have to wait a week for an update, it's gonna be awesome. You're assuming Rich spends his every waking hour working on this comic. For all we know, he had other things to do or, God forbid, he had an acute attack of his illness.

Or, it may have been the first page of a multipage comic, but when people started to complain about the wait, he released it early. Who knows?


Bit of a shame about the economy jokes there, but otherwise, interesting strip..

I don't think "the economy" is going to log on and complain about a comic.

I like the jokes in this strip. They are understated, but get better on rereading.

[lord_khaine]

You do if you've read the spell description.


the spell description of what, exactly? i think you missed the part of the comic where they made fun of how many ways there actualy are to make fog.


The spell grants concealment to everyone standing within its area of effect.
as i mentioned before, we dont know what spell has been cast.


Being hidden and having concealment are two different things./QUOTE]
ehh yes?... i think i failed to graps the point here, if there was any.

[QUOTE]Don't misuse the word "logical" like that.
personaly i considder it better than the abuse you put it though, though neglect.

[Laketh Stadt]

I don't think "the economy" is going to log on and complain about a comic.

I like the jokes in this strip. They are understated, but get better on rereading.

Yes, but to some of us in the automotive industry, this is like telling a holocost joke at a bar mitsvah. Still, no complaints, you gotta laugh or your gonna start crying.

[the Economy]

I don't think "the economy" is going to log on and complain about a comic.



the Economy here, and I'd like to complain about me being slandered!!! :smallwink:

[Jooky]

What does "soul patch" mean?

A soul patch is the little beard that is under Hanks lip. It is under the lip but is above where a goatee is normally located, and is usually triangular in shape just like the one Hank is sporting.

[Ron Miel]

At least 106 played it for comedy and kind of hand waved it as a failed bluff check.

Actually it succeeded. He fooled Roy, certainly, and Elan tried to touch the gate.

[Boaromir]

the Economy here, and I'd like to complain about me being slandered!!! :smallwink:


Winner.


Also, For the people who think following Celia is silly, Hank's obviously not going to disobey a direct order from Bozzak, but he's probably a bit more prone to not follow through if a sufficient oppurtunity comes up. This is a guild of rogues, after all. And based on his behaviour in OoPC's, I'd say he liked Haley enough to not need as good a reason to avoid fighting her. Also, Bozzak's already said Crystal gets to kill her, so maybe he's intelligent enough to know that anyone who earnestly tries at her long enough before Crystal gets around is going to end up pretty dead.


Regardless, Hank is one of my absolute favorite characters.

[Ron Miel]

A soul patch is the little beard that is under Hanks lip. It is under the lip but is above where a goatee is normally located, and is usually triangular in shape just like the one Hank is sporting.

Thanks for the info. I learned a new word today.

[Osgiliath]

This would have been a great chance for Rich to settle one of the longest ongoing disputes in Ranged Feats. "Whether or not you can combine manyshot with rapidshot?" May be it was confirmed via the fact that Haley did not use both feats, assuming that she knows them.

If I'm not wrong, does this confirm the group being at least level 12 and up since a rogue can't sneak attack another rogue 4 levels higher then himself?

Another thing, shouldn't Haley try to retain total concealment (or even invisibility) downstairs within the fog then allow herself to be flanked by a guild of rogues? Not the most tactically sound decision thats for sure.

Another thing, for rogues these guys have terribly low spot check to avoid spotting Haley, maybe those 4 levels in difference in the training of the Hide/Move Silently skill to the enemy rogues Spot/Listen skill really is much larger then I had anticipated.

Oh well, really fun comic, can't wait for this battle to be over to determine the victor.

[Sengoku]

If Elan was here, he'd know Crystal is on her way to face Haley, now that the low-level ones are dead or taken care of :smallwink:.

Btw, Celia as a young female laywer trying to build a career during dire economic times is always nice :smallbiggrin:

[Adeptus]

Oooh, nice comic today!

Great visuals (the fog really works for me), lot's of OotS style wisecracking action, and a good punchline.

Those of you going "omg, not funny when the economy is really hurting" should re read the old stuff. There's a joke where Celia complains about the dungeon work being all she could find in this economy, and Belkar agreeing with her.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Atta girl, Celia, now concentrate on not getting caught or dying.

I like this strip. Keep em comin'!

[Lord Seth]

Oooh, nice comic today!

Great visuals (the fog really works for me), lot's of OotS style wisecracking action, and a good punchline.

Those of you going "omg, not funny when the economy is really hurting" should re read the old stuff. There's a joke where Celia complains about the dungeon work being all she could find in this economy, and Belkar agreeing with her.People were complaining about that? I thought the biggest complaint was that the enemies acted stupid near the end, that this comic took too long to make and wasn't worth the wait, and that we're still spending time on an arc that was unnecessarily prolonged only because Celia got the Idiot Ball for no reason. (though that last one might have just been me)

[David Argall]

Great comic and Hank now ranks just behind Tsukiko and Leeky for favorite secondary character in my book.
Hank has 4/6 appearances, some of them pretty minor, and OOTS has a cast of hundreds who have appeared in more than one strip. So he still is just a bit player. And while a credit to the strip, he is no more than a match for a dozen of them.



This would have been a great chance for Rich to settle one of the longest ongoing disputes in Ranged Feats. "Whether or not you can combine manyshot with rapidshot?"
I thought that was settled years ago, that you can't, and you don't want to. -4 to every shot adds up fast. Haley shoots 3 shots a round. Give her an 80% chance of hitting and she hits 2.4 times a round. Now take an extra shot for manyshot and she has 4 shots at a 60% chance of hitting and still only hits 2.4 times a round. Give her a 75% chance or an extra shot from Haste or 14th level and it's an outright loser.



I just can't accept that such a childish lie would fool them for a second.
This is comedy. The most blatently obvious lies get accepted.



Especially as Celia says that they all know what they're trying to pull. Yeah, so they know that she's lying, but play along with it anyway?
A version of the joke you might find more understandable would be ...
Girl in prison cell: "I'm so lonely in here...There is nothing to do..."
Male Guard: "I'm not buying that. You're just trying to lure me into the cell so you can bash my head in and escape."
Girl: "Maybe. But could you live with yourself if it turns out I do have the hots?"
Guard thinks for a moment, and then rushes into cell.


No, somehow I just can't accept that as realistic. I didn't buy it in 106 and I don't buy it here either.
Well of course it is not realistic. Whatever gave you the idea it was supposed to be?

[SPoD]

When Hank makes that comment on concealment, it reminded me that sneak attacks cannot be made if there is any amount of concealment. :smallwink:

(Not that it really matters. Story first.)

Haley thus has Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot). That would allow her to sneak attack a foe in partial concealment, as it ignores all miss chances short of Total Concealment.

The flunky still can't sneak attack a concealed target in melee, but then again, he didn't, did he?

[lord_khaine]

Celia got the Idiot Ball for no reason. (though that last one might have just been me)

i must say, i dont think Celia got hold of that ball at all during this arc.

[RMS Oceanic]

I just noticed a really awesome piece of conservation of detail.

When flunky sneak attacks Haley, there's a large-ish wound in her back. When she invokes Improved Uncanny Dodge, it retroactively becomes tiny.

Excellent detail, Rich!

[Lord Seth]

i must say, i dont think Celia got hold of that ball at all during this arc.You mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) isn't an obvious case of the idiot ball?

But again, I could've handled it, if not for the fact that this served no purpose other than to unnecessarily prolong an arc that looked like it was finally finishing up.

I complained about it back then, though, so I guess there's no need to dredge it up now...but it does mean that we wouldn't be *still* waiting for a resolution now if the plot hadn't been horribly derailed by the Idiot Ball.

[SPoD]

You mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) isn't an obvious case of the idiot ball?

But again, I could've handled it, if not for the fact that this served no purpose other than to unnecessarily prolong an arc that looked like it was finally finishing up.

I complained about it back then, though, so I guess there's no need to dredge it up now...but it does mean that we wouldn't be *still* waiting for a resolution now if the plot hadn't been horribly derailed by the Idiot Ball.

Celia's naivete about the Real World is one of her defining characteristics, so no, I don't think it is a case of Idiot Ball. That's like saying that it's an Idiot Ball situation when Elan does something stupid.

[TengYt]

Also, in those examples you were given, the fact was Celia could have been right, and she could have gotten Roy raised long ago. It's not her fault Grubwigger was so vague.

[Lord Seth]

Celia's naivete about the Real World is one of her defining characteristics, so no, I don't think it is a case of Idiot Ball. That's like saying that it's an Idiot Ball situation when Elan does something stupid.Except it's in Elan's personality to be stupid. Celia was beforehand portrayed as fairly intelligent and rational.

My main problem is, however, that the whole thing got derailed for no apparent reason other than to stretch it out. We'd be done with this already if not for that. The Idiot Ball is just icing on the cake.

[Nevitan]

{Scrubbed}

I wouldn't bring that up, could get you an infraction...

[Lord Seth]

{Scrubbed}Who are you talking to with this? It's kind of vague.

[Draz74]

Meh, this strip was average. Not the best, but not particularly dissapointing either.

The lack of clear rules on Obscuring Mist is made up for by the antagonist's name being a subtle political reference. Wow, almost like The Giant expected to write this strip back when he first created Hank in OtOoPCs. :smallcool:


It's not clear where the fog came from. Who exactly cast the spell? And why?
I concur with others: the implication here of Celia was clear enough. We still don't know a lot of her spell selection, but this is exactly the sort of air-themed pacifist low-level spell she would probably know.


I can suspend my disbelief and accept stories about magic and women with wings. But somehow I just can't accept that such a childish lie would fool them for a second. Especially as Celia says that they all know what they're trying to pull. Yeah, so they know that she's lying, but play along with it anyway? No, somehow I just can't accept that as realistic. I didn't buy it in 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)and I don't buy it here either.
I always thought it was making fun of the D&D Bluff rules. Like how you can make anyone believe anything as long as you beat their Sense Motive check by 20. (Not that hard, with a bit of optimization (or a Glibness spell) and if they don't have any ranks placed in Sense Motive.)


What does "soul patch" mean?
I think it's a reference to Hank's goatee. (Whoops, I see someone answered this before me.)


Haley thus has Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot). That would allow her to sneak attack a foe in partial concealment, as it ignores all miss chances short of Total Concealment.

That would ... actually work. She even has the high Dex for it (recalling her ability to pick the Azure City jail lock, she has 20 Dex without items). But she would need to be Level 15 to have the BAB for it. And I think we still consider her to be Level 13 or 14 ... plus, if she had +11 BAB, her Rapid Shot would have included a fourth arrow.

[hamishspence]

I remember the Dungeon Crawling Fools pre-start strips- goblin prisoner being Diplomancied by Elan:

If you don't want to know, its spoilered.

Elan: Fine, I'm making a Diplomacy check right...NOW!

Goblin 1: ARRGH! NO!
Goblin 2: Feel my opinions...inexplicably changing!

Elan: There! Done. So are you going to help us now?

Goblin 1: Yes sir, straight away sir!
Goblin 2: Anything you want, sir!

Elan: Uh oh, I seem to have overshot "Friendly" and gone straight to "Subservient Middle Management" on the attitude scale.

Goblin 2: And may I say that cape looks stunningly on you, sir.

Maybe its a bit like that.

[Stormthorn]

What does "soul patch" mean?

Its his beard type.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Celia the Inconsistent...

First, Celia is a generic "guardian," peacefully swiping office supplies, guarding magic runes, stomping big muddy holes in Nale and Thog...

Then she was a bright and clever lawyer, and while Shojo helped the case along, she did an acceptable, if not excellent, job defending the OOTS, went out with Roy, then went back to finish her degree.

Then she became a tree-hugging goofball, thinking that Haley had some magic power over Belkar, worrying about a tossed chocolate bar, wandering through an exceptionally bad neighborhood and finally dropping off the bones of her boyfriend without even looking over the terms of a contract... What was she doing in Contracts in Law School? Painting her Nails?

Now, at last, she's using her Lawyer's Bluff to draw the B-Team off of Haley (a good thing), but doesn't seem to have a plan beyond that. Celia has shown she's pretty good with a plan, but not so good "Off-the-cuff."

Or is it just me? :smallconfused:

[NakedCelt]

My main problem is, however, that the whole thing got derailed for no apparent reason other than to stretch it out. We'd be done with this already if not for that. The Idiot Ball is just icing on the cake.

Again with the assumption that this arc is a "derailment" which is due to get "back on track". Didn't some people think that about the Miko-arrests-the-Order arc way back in the early 200s? No, this arc is leading to a climax, which will turn out to be critical to the main plot. I'd happily bet on that.

[Hithros]

....I am kind of surprised that Haley didn't expect something like the fighter....

Won't there be other thieves in the building?

[TengYt]

I see this arc as tying up loose ends. Kubota has been dealt with. Haley's history with the Thieves' Guild will be sorted out. Roy will be revived, then everyone will be back on track.

[David Argall]

Again with the assumption that this arc is a "derailment" which is due to get "back on track". Didn't some people think that about the Miko-arrests-the-Order arc way back in the early 200s? No, this arc is leading to a climax, which will turn out to be critical to the main plot. I'd happily bet on that.

A rash idea. Now a derailment can be made crucial to the plot. We have Roy getting his improved sword on one. But the side quest is still just a side quest.
Now looking at Miko, we don't see much in the way of a derailment. Instead, we have, as Roy tells us, a railroad plot. We hear about Miko in 120 and watch her approach. That is plot, not derailment. 80 strips later, we have a clear view of the long term plot.
Now Roy has been dead for twice that long, and it is a long way from getting him back. We are no further in reaching the goal than we were about strip 400.
Along about 660, we will be back on track.

[lord_khaine]

You mean this and this isn't an obvious case of the idiot ball?

But again, I could've handled it, if not for the fact that this served no purpose other than to unnecessarily prolong an arc that looked like it was finally finishing up.

I complained about it back then, though, so I guess there's no need to dredge it up now...but it does mean that we wouldn't be *still* waiting for a resolution now if the plot hadn't been horribly derailed by the Idiot Ball.

no, i dont considder that idiot ball material at all, i considder the sort of things that just happens when a good outsider who have not had very much experience dealing with humans wander into a evil city.

[Tobimaro]

Excellent use of the skill profession(Lawyer/clever shady manupulation) skill Celia!

I rather think that it's a better use of Haley's Bluff skill, with a circumstance modifier from Celia, with the rogue's having poor Sense Motive skills. Of course I also think that Celia, having been trained as a lawyer, might also have put ranks in Bluff.

Either way, with a circumstance modifier from Greysky City's poor economy, Celia's Bluff just might work. :smallsmile:

[Lord Seth]

Celia the Inconsistent...

First, Celia is a generic "guardian," peacefully swiping office supplies, guarding magic runes, stomping big muddy holes in Nale and Thog...

Then she was a bright and clever lawyer, and while Shojo helped the case along, she did an acceptable, if not excellent, job defending the OOTS, went out with Roy, then went back to finish her degree.

Then she became a tree-hugging goofball, thinking that Haley had some magic power over Belkar, worrying about a tossed chocolate bar, wandering through an exceptionally bad neighborhood and finally dropping off the bones of her boyfriend without even looking over the terms of a contract... What was she doing in Contracts in Law School? Painting her Nails?

Now, at last, she's using her Lawyer's Bluff to draw the B-Team off of Haley (a good thing), but doesn't seem to have a plan beyond that. Celia has shown she's pretty good with a plan, but not so good "Off-the-cuff."

Or is it just me? :smallconfused:It's not just you.

[derfenrirwolv]

I rather think that it's a better use of Haley's Bluff skill, with a circumstance modifier from Celia, with the rogue's having poor Sense Motive skills. Of course I also think that Celia, having been trained as a lawyer, might also have put ranks in Bluff.


Either Haley or Celia bluffing with a + 2 modifier from the other helping +5 for "target wants to believe you"*. While the bluff would seem to be "a little bit out there" for a -5 penalty ** , you have to remember that in D&D monsters DO seem to have an extraordinary amount of treasure just lying about their person.




* Yes technically its a -5 to the targets sense motive DC, rather than a + 5to the bluff, but in terms of making the DC or not the two are identical

** Yes technically its a +5 to the targets sense motive DC, rather than a -5 to the bluff, but in terms of making the DC or not the two are identical

[Wikkin]

Love the comic. Minor nitpick.

In panel 5, "should't" should be "shouldn't," unless there's some sort of slang with which I am unfamiliar.

[Moechi_Vill]

Does anyone else agree that the idiot ball has been passed from Celia to the Thieves Guild?

It's kind of sad to see a hardcore guild wasting the experience points and accomplishment of Haley's death for an extremely dubious payout that will obviously end in variable amounts of agony for their organization. And then they offer her to mention them in her resume.

[WarriorTribble]

no, i dont considder that idiot ball material at all, i considder the sort of things that just happens when a good outsider who have not had very much experience dealing with humans wander into a evil city.There's a fine line between naive/inexperienced and stupidity. By my books, this line is crossed when you refuse to listen to the higher leveled and more experienced party member which is what a naive person is supposed to do. It's doubly worse when your rationale for not listening amounts to "I wanna risk all to bring back the guy I had one date with asap."

[Equilibrate]

This would have been a great chance for Rich to settle one of the longest ongoing disputes in Ranged Feats. "Whether or not you can combine manyshot with rapidshot?" May be it was confirmed via the fact that Haley did not use both feats, assuming that she knows them.

If I'm not wrong, does this confirm the group being at least level 12 and up since a rogue can't sneak attack another rogue 4 levels higher then himself?

Another thing, shouldn't Haley try to retain total concealment (or even invisibility) downstairs within the fog then allow herself to be flanked by a guild of rogues? Not the most tactically sound decision thats for sure.

Another thing, for rogues these guys have terribly low spot check to avoid spotting Haley, maybe those 4 levels in difference in the training of the Hide/Move Silently skill to the enemy rogues Spot/Listen skill really is much larger then I had anticipated.

Oh well, really fun comic, can't wait for this battle to be over to determine the victor.


A couple of things:

1. The official D&D 3.5 errata posted on the wizard's website includes a FAQ, and one of the items on that FAQ mentions rapid shot and many shot. They do NOT work together. The reason for this is that Rapid Shot says in its description that you 'must use a full attack action to use this feat', whereas manyshot says in the description "As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet..." Feel free to dispute this if you like, but the official wizards site said this.

2. The rules for uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are often misinterpreted. Improved uncanny dodge says that the ability prevents you from being flanked by anyone except a rogue four levels higher than you, and thus denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her unless the attacker has four more rogue levels than the target does.

HOWEVER, this is not the case with the normal uncanny dodge. Regular uncanny dodge prevents the character from EVER losing their dex bonus due to being caught flat footed or struck by an invisible attacker. There is nothing in the description of the regular uncanny dodge that says a rogue four levels higher can still catch you flat footed. The simple fact is, one rogue can NEVER sneak attack another by simply catching them flat footed, since uncanny dodge prevents them from losing their dex bonus to AC, and you can't sneak attack someone unless they lose their dex bonus to AC, or they are flanked. The only way for one rogue to sneak attack another, other than flanking, is if the target is being grappled, is immobilized, climbing, running, balancing, or performing some other action that denies them their dex bonus to AC, since uncanny dodge doesn't help in those situations.

This also means that Haley shouldn't be able to sneak attack any of the other guild rogues, unless they are all under 4th level and havent gotten even the regular uncanny dodge yet. Just because she's 4 levels higher than them, it doesn't help. She can flank them, but she cannot catch them flat footed.

[Red XIV]

I have a feeling that Celia is going to end up in a sort of cul-de-sac, and it seems I'm not the only one.
Don't think so two-dimensionally. Being able to fly makes getting stuck in a cul-de-sac much more difficult, since you can just start moving upward. And the pursuers, being incapable of flight, are stuck down at street level.

[Eraniverse]

Don't think so two-dimensionally. Being able to fly makes getting stuck in a cul-de-sac much more difficult, since you can just start moving upward. And the pursuers, being incapable of flight, are stuck down at street level.

Laundry lines and ill timed backwards gloat? :smalltongue: Just the obvious gag.

[Kurald Galain]

When flunky sneak attacks Haley, there's a large-ish wound in her back. When she invokes Improved Uncanny Dodge, it retroactively becomes tiny.

+1. That was very funny.

[Amarsir]

But again, I could've handled it, if not for the fact that this served no purpose other than to unnecessarily prolong an arc that looked like it was finally finishing up.
We don't know that yet, there may be significant character-based growth. I thought the Orc Island bit was an utter waste at first, but it really established Therkla who in turn caused tremendous growth for Elan and Vaarsuvius. (Not so much positive growth in V's case.)

Developing characters is always worthwhile, and if a significant permanent change arises out of this, change which ultimately enables the Order to beat Xykon, then it will be purposeful and even necessary.

[SPoD]

This also means that Haley shouldn't be able to sneak attack any of the other guild rogues, unless they are all under 4th level and havent gotten even the regular uncanny dodge yet. Just because she's 4 levels higher than them, it doesn't help. She can flank them, but she cannot catch them flat footed.

Considering she killed them (down to -10 hp) with a single arrow, they may well be 3rd level or lower.

An average rogue with a 13 Constitution would have 15 hp at 3rd level, so it would take 25 hp to kill them outright. Haley does 1d8+7d6, or 29 damage on average. They couldn't be much higher than 3rd level for her to have a good chance of killing all three with one arrow each, which she did. And since that would explain how she could sneak attack them in the first place, it seems like that is a good enough solution for us to not cry foul at Rich for "breaking the rules".

(Hank's flunky, while he used concealment to sneak up on Haley, was actually flanking her with Hank when he called "Sneak Attack!" So only Improved Uncanny Dodge comes into play on that one.)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Celia's naivete about the Real World is one of her defining characteristics, so no, I don't think it is a case of Idiot Ball. That's like saying that it's an Idiot Ball situation when Elan does something stupid.
This works but then Haley is running out of feats. There is already some discussion of this in Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005).

Conversely Haley could have a bow with the Seeking ability which also negates concealment.


Considering she killed them (down to -10 hp) with a single arrow, they may well be 3rd level or lower.

An average rogue with a 13 Constitution would have 15 hp at 3rd level, so it would take 25 hp to kill them outright. Haley does 1d8+7d6, or 29 damage on average. They couldn't be much higher than 3rd level for her to have a good chance of killing all three with one arrow each, which she did. And since that would explain how she could sneak attack them in the first place, it seems like that is a good enough solution for us to not cry foul at Rich for "breaking the rules".

Haley does 1d8+x+7d8 where x at least 1 (from point blank shot). But given that she's a 14th level rogue she should have magic bows and arrows so the damage should be higher. A fair estimate might be that Haley does at least 1d8+6+7d8 damage.

Also, do the x'ed eyes means your at -10 or dying?



(Hank's flunky, while he used concealment to sneak up on Haley, was actually flanking her with Hank when he called "Sneak Attack!" So only Improved Uncanny Dodge comes into play on that one.)
Flanking or not, Gez is right that again concealment would come into play. Fog cloug type spells generally grant 20% concealment from withing 5 feet which would negate sneak attack unless Hank's flunky also has a concealment negating feat (Pierce Magical Concealment from Complete Arcane) or a new type of magic weapon (Seeking is only for ranged weapons according to the RAW).

[NightHaunter]

The spell has to be Obscuring Mist. Reading the spell description it grants Concealment if your target is 5 feet away. If the distance between you and your target is less than 5 feet it does not and Sneak Attack is possible.
Now to the possibility of sneak attacking rogues. Of course the solution may simply be that they are not yet lvl 4, something SPoD argues well for. On the other hand the rules for sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge are a bit open and unclear. In the PHB 3.5 the sneak attack rules state; "the rogues attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bomus to AC". The important word here is would. It does not say that SA works only when the target loses dex bonus, but when the main rules state that the target normally lose Dex bonus.
If we see Table 8-6 on pg 151 it states that a flat-footed creature can be subject to SA. In the description of Uncanny Dodge it states that the rogue retains Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed. It does not say that the rogue cannot be flat-footed, only that she retains the bonus. Therefore the rogue is in a situation where she would lose Dex bonus to AC and can be Sneak Attacked.

As to the fact that she kills them with one arrow each, I agree with SPoD that the low level flunkies probably are lvl 3 or below.

[Fraxinus]

This "place" is fun, and there are surely many amusing or smart people... but I find the enormous amount of (sometimes interesting, sometimes odd and sometimes "pointless") conjectures a bit overwhelming... :smallbiggrin:

Respectfully speaking, of course.

It is true, Mr Burlew has created something that moves the minds of the masses! :smallwink:

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The spell has to be Obscuring Mist. Reading the spell description it grants Concealment if your target is 5 feet away. If the distance between you and your target is less than 5 feet it does not and Sneak Attack is possible.
Now to the possibility of sneak attacking rogues. Of course the solution may simply be that they are not yet lvl 4, something SPoD argues well for. On the other hand the rules for sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge are a bit open and unclear. In the PHB 3.5 the sneak attack rules state; "the rogues attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bomus to AC". The important word here is would. It does not say that SA works only when the target loses dex bonus, but when the main rules state that the target normally lose Dex bonus.
If we see Table 8-6 on pg 151 it states that a flat-footed creature can be subject to SA. In the description of Uncanny Dodge it states that the rogue retains Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed. It does not say that the rogue cannot be flat-footed, only that she retains the bonus. Therefore the rogue is in a situation where she would lose Dex bonus to AC and can be Sneak Attacked.

Not so unclear. Read here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a). (Note it's a four part article.)



As to the fact that she kills them with one arrow each, I agree with SPoD that the low level flunkies probably are lvl 3 or below.

That's not strictly necessary if she does 1d8+x+7d6 as I propose above.

However, Toby should not have taken sneak attack damage in page 603 unless he was not a 4th level rogue. (That was probably discussed ad nauseum before...)

So when Haley said 603 that they were facing mid to high level rogues she might have meant mid-level to mean level 2 or 3 as SPoD proposes. Or more likely her statement does not preclude the thieves from being multiclassed rogues. In the latter case which is more likely a typical 4th level thief might be a Ftr2/Rog2 in which case Haley could sneak attack much more.

[NightHaunter]

Interesting article HamsterOfTheGod, but it predates 3.5 ed, as such, unless the wording in 3.0 (I don't have those books available) is the same as in 3.5, uncanny dodge is no SA breaker and the sneak attacks in 603 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html) and 604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) still apply.
I agree that the article makes the sneak attacks impossible, but the Giant is using 3.5 rules and RAW Uncanny Dodge does not denie SA, in fact reading the rules carefully the wording allows SA to be used against a target with Uncanny dodge.
As the post where you look at the dmg Haley does was made while I wrote mine, I couldn't take it into account. But I agree with your statement about it being 1d8+x+7d6.

So unless someone can tell me that the line I qoute from the SA rules in 3.5 is the same wording as in 3.0 it is my opinion that the PHB trumps the article and a rogue lvl 4 and above can be SAed if flat footed. As the rogue is often observant and has high initiative the situation arise less frequent than for others, but it is still dangerous for a rogue to be surprised.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Interesting article HamsterOfTheGod, but it predates 3.5 ed, as such, unless the wording in 3.0 (I don't have those books available) is the same as in 3.5, uncanny dodge is no SA breaker and the sneak attacks in 603 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html) and 604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) still apply.
I agree that the article makes the sneak attacks impossible, but the Giant is using 3.5 rules and RAW Uncanny Dodge does not denie SA, in fact reading the rules carefully the wording allows SA to be used against a target with Uncanny dodge.
As the post where you look at the dmg Haley does was made while I wrote mine, I couldn't take it into account. But I agree with your statement about it being 1d8+x+7d6.

So unless someone can tell me that the line I qoute from the SA rules in 3.5 is the same wording as in 3.0 it is my opinion that the PHB trumps the article and a rogue lvl 4 and above can be SAed if flat footed. As the rogue is often observant and has high initiative the situation arise less frequent than for others, but it is still dangerous for a rogue to be surprised.

Not according to the sage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20070924a).



09/24/2007

Q: Dear Sage
Since uncanny dodge doesn’t prevent you from being flat-footed, does that mean that a rogue can use sneak attack against a flat-footed character who has uncanny dodge?
--Mike

A: No.

Rogues don’t get to use sneak attack because a target is flat-footed, they get to use sneak attack because the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (italics added), which is a normal side effect of being flat-footed.

A barbarian (or any other character) with uncanny dodge retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Therefore, being flat-footed doesn’t render a foe vulnerable to enemy sneak attack.



Of course it's a long debated question.

[NightHaunter]

But can we at least agree that it is Obscuring Mist that is used which would allow the sneak attacks barring other factors?

The situation with the sneak attacks are now a question of interpretation of RAW and if FAQs overrule the published rules. As long as the line does not state that SA is possible when the target is denied Dex + to Ac but use would be I am of the opinion that RAW allows SA on a rogue, as long as the rogue is in a situation where dex bonus is normally lost.

So it depends on what you give most weight, RAW or FAQ and in a gaming group this is one of the things I would now check with the GM, because there are good arguments both ways.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

But can we at least agree that it is Obscuring Mist that is used which would allow the sneak attacks barring other factors?

I wish but I don't see the difference between Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm)and Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm)in terms of concealmen. Both "obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance)."

When you say

If the distance between you and your target is less than 5 feet it does not and Sneak Attack is possible.
I would interpret that to be only possible when you're in the same square which is not the case here.



The situation with the sneak attacks are now a question of interpretation of RAW and if FAQs overrule the published rules. As long as the line does not state that SA is possible when the target is denied Dex + to Ac but use would be I am of the opinion that RAW allows SA on a rogue, as long as the rogue is in a situation where dex bonus is normally lost.

So it depends on what you give most weight, RAW or FAQ and in a gaming group this is one of the things I would now check with the GM, because there are good arguments both ways.
On that we can agree. Anyway, it's all in good rules-lawyering fun. The comic was cool and funny as written.

[NightHaunter]

Fog Cloud grants concealement to a creature within 5 feet. Obscuring Mist say that a creature 5 feet away has concealment. Rules-lawyering on that fact I would say that the concealment line is 5 feet away. If you do not use a combat grid, and I have never used one in the groups I have run or been part of, it is no problem being 4 feet away from someone. In the concealment rules an attack is affected by concealment if it has to pass through a square or a border that grants concealment. If I stand in a square next to my opponent it does not, if it is a square between me and my opponent he has concealment.

That at least is my understand of the wording and the rules for concealment.

And I enjoyed the comic. I usually do.

I'll stop hogging the thread now.

[Amarsir]

Also, do the x'ed eyes means your at -10 or dying?Xs mean you're dead. Anything north of that is just eyes closed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

[3Power]

Everyone, everyone! We're all forgetting something very important: Was that everyone's favorite bard/rogue/sorcerer that bit it in panel 3? :smalleek:

[Lira]

Everyone, everyone! We're all forgetting something very important: Was that everyone's favorite bard/rogue/sorcerer that bit it in panel 3? :smalleek:
No, Jenny had different hair and different clothing.

EDIT: Oh! I just realized we've seen her in the online comic too. Panel three of 581 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html). You can see she's clearly not the female killed in the most recent strip.

[dps]

I expect it to be good. This was not up to the standard in terms of writing. The writer's personal life is his own business, as he himself has clearly declared, but that also means that it is not your place to make excuses for him when that writing is sub-par.


I don't think that he was making any excuses for the quality of the strip; if he was making any excuses, it was for the long wait for it to be up. Not that it's his place to make excuses for that either, but I don't think that was his intent so much as to point out that we shouldn't assume that there is going to be any correlation between the length of the wait for a strip and the quailty of that particular strip.

[gibbedman]

As I read the possible interpretations about Haley and her most awesome triple-sneak-attack-to-death manoever, I realized that there's a different level of condensation/fog/what-have-you up where everyone's standing than down at the bottom of the staircase. In essence, the fog didn't give Haley concealment from which she could sneak attack, it only allowed her to approach without getting noticed, and get a little surprise round on those unsuspecting flat-footed, low-level rogues. In essence, no one had concealment during any combat round, but, as it is with all good rogues, no one saw Haley until it was too late.

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't think that he was making any excuses for the quality of the strip; if he was making any excuses, it was for the long wait for it to be up. Not that it's his place to make excuses for that either, but I don't think that was his intent so much as to point out that we shouldn't assume that there is going to be any correlation between the length of the wait for a strip and the quailty of that particular strip.

I liked this strip.
Apart from shipping stuff you actually bought, he really doesn't have to be on time...

[Equilibrate]

But can we at least agree that it is Obscuring Mist that is used which would allow the sneak attacks barring other factors?

The situation with the sneak attacks are now a question of interpretation of RAW and if FAQs overrule the published rules. As long as the line does not state that SA is possible when the target is denied Dex + to Ac but use would be I am of the opinion that RAW allows SA on a rogue, as long as the rogue is in a situation where dex bonus is normally lost.

So it depends on what you give most weight, RAW or FAQ and in a gaming group this is one of the things I would now check with the GM, because there are good arguments both ways.

Its admitted several times in the official 3.5 FAQ and the ask the sage archives that there are a lot of typoes and misprints in the PHB and the other main books. There are a lot of examples given where they post a re-worded description of a spell, class feature, or a section of the rules. The faq can be found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a and in the section on rogues they say that uncanny dodge does block sneak attack, just like HamsterOfTheGod says above. The description listed in the PHB is misleading, because the wording is open to interpretation. There are a LOT of examples in the 3.5 FAQ where they clarify a potentially misleading phrasing in the PHB, giving a more detailed explanation of what the book was MEANT to say, as opposed to how it is wrongfully interpreted. I think that since the FAQ specifically says, in more than one place, that something in the PHB is worded wrong, and the FAQ lists the correct way to word it, that the FAQ must be assumed to supercede the PHB.

[Moechi_Vill]

I'm surprised people are so concerned with minor logical inconsistencies and main character reasoning, but don't seem to care all that much about why an elite guild just dumped their main target for what was obviously a trap, joke aside.

[David Argall]

Joke is never aside in this strip.

[NightHaunter]

Equilibrate, I might have been unclear, but in my last post I thought I said that the question was now if the gaming group chose to use FAQs or not. The FAQ is clear, and after close reading the PHB is so as well.
Some gaming groups and venues may chose to use FAQ in hope that the extra work in reading and remembering the FAQ may help them avoid long discussions in the gaming session.
Other groups may claim that the extra work is not worth it and use the books as they are printed.

As the rule is clear, but have different effect in both versions, the question is if the group gaming expect the GM or the players to keep up with all the amendments and clarifications posted on the Wizards' web or not.

So if you and your group regard the published books as a finished product and that it is the players and the DMs work to interpret the rules and clear inconsistencies to the satisfaction of the group, a lvl 4+ rogue can probably be Sneak Attacked when flat-footed. If you and your group regard it as a work in progress and the publishers job to solve problems with wording, to be patched as needed, the a lvl 4+ rogue can't be Sneak Attacked when flat-footed.

In the strip it can be solved if the rogues are below lvl 4, and the SA haley is subjected to is from flanking and therefore not affected by Uncanny Dodge.

[jamroar]

I'm surprised people are so concerned with minor logical inconsistencies and main character reasoning, but don't seem to care all that much about why an elite guild just dumped their main target for what was obviously a trap, joke aside.

Mr Power-Attack Fighter can clearly handle Haley alone in melee with nowhere to run. Celia's plan is nothing but a distraction, not a trap, and they have to capture/kill her anyway to fulfill their property retrieval obligations to Grubwiggler, so it's not they can afford to let her get away either in the first place.

[Morty]

I'm surprised people are so concerned with minor logical inconsistencies and main character reasoning, but don't seem to care all that much about why an elite guild just dumped their main target for what was obviously a trap, joke aside.

Who and when said the guild is somehow "elite"? Last time I checked they were a bunch of thieves and robbers.

[hamishspence]

And you know what they say, a thief who is not competant, and sensible, and skilled at what they do, is a thief that is very soon in jail.

[brionl]

Who and when said the guild is somehow "elite"? Last time I checked they were a bunch of thieves and robbers.

They are definately the schlubbs and dregs. Any "elite" thieves would do like Haley and go freelance. Except for the few that have the luck to become personal antagonists to the PCs.



And you know what they say, a thief who is not competant, and sensible, and skilled at what they do, is a thief that is very soon in jail.


Except in Greysky. From what we've seen so far, there doesn't seem to be any law enforcement if people can just drag bodies through the street down to the local corpse buyer.

[derfenrirwolv]

rogues attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bomus to AC"

The part that requires interpretation here is that "would" translates to "would if not for other special abilities". While that is a legitimate interpretation of the RAW, it is not in and of itself the raw. The "would" applies to creatures who don't have a dexterity bonus so that creatures without a dex bonus are not automatically rendered immune to sneak attacks, and so characters wearing heavy armor that reduces their dex bonus to +0 are not automatically sneak attacked on every hit from a rogue.

re: haley vs the fighter. Using archery against a dumb fighter isn't very hard, you just do the wizard shuffle. Take a 5 foot step back to avoid the attack of opportunity full attack. 5 foot step back, full attack. When you get backed into a corner, tumble 15 feet manyshot.

A smart fighter will sunder the bow at the first opportunity, or if ithe bow has a higher + than their blade, disarm it and have a mook pick it up

[Ronan]

Ya know, it's widely advised for people read the first comics instead of waiting too much for ... say #605. But it gets harder to wait when you suddenly have time to read the first 600 in three days... What can I do?

Rich, by all means keep going the good story. We had comedy focus before and I *know* that good jokes are coming :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

not so much Law enforcement, as Private Guards (Haley, Origin of PCs)

They aren't exactly bright sparks, but thieves do need some competence to not get nabbed on the job and punished enthusiastically by those they were planning to rob.

[SoC175]

Who and when said the guild is somehow "elite"? Last time I checked they were a bunch of thieves and robbers.
We know that at least one of them is 8th level. That is elite.

[Edhelras]

A soul patch is the little beard that is under Hanks lip. It is under the lip but is above where a goatee is normally located, and is usually triangular in shape just like the one Hank is sporting.


LOL actually there is a wiki entry on "soul patch": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_patch

I didn't know before I looked it up. The Giant is expanding my English vocubulary :smallsmile:


I liked this strip a lot, although I'm still a bit confused (even after reading all the forum entries) how or whether the Sneak Attack / Concealment worked out in the end. I can take some artistic liberties, but generally I prefer it when the Giant sticks to the rules...

The strip was funny on many levels, and I don't mind it a bit if there are some RL references as well, especially when they're as subtle as in this strip. Heck everybode knows the economy is troublesome these days, no reason not to make a tiny little bit of fun about it.

Like my bardess Elvira always says: "Some things are too sad not to make fun of!"

[Scarlet Knight]

They are definately the schlubbs and dregs. Any "elite" thieves would do like Haley and go freelance. Except for the few that have the luck to become personal antagonists to the PCs.



I don't know how common that is. In the games that I've played that use guilds, they usually are modelled after gangs. Either a very powerful Mafia - like gang that rules the whole city, or smaller ones that control neighborhoods. No problem in dungeons or in the wild for the "rogue" rogue, but in cities anyone who freelances has to be extremely good because you soon become a target for anyone who wants to either protect their turf or please a higher-up. Thus a guild does contain "dregs" but also pretty much every thief in the area belongs to some guild. The higher theives simply become officers in their respective guilds with all it's perks ( such as getting expendable "schlubbs" when needed). Rather a lawful way to control the law-breakers...

[Shatteredtower]

the spell description of what, exactly? i think you missed the part of the comic where they made fun of how many ways there actualy are to make fog.

As I wrote before, all of them.

So it doesn't get missed this time, I will repeat that yet again: all of them.

More slowly, perhaps? All. Of. Them.


as i mentioned before, we dont know what spell has been cast.

Doesn't matter. They all provide concealment to adjacent foes.



Being hidden and having concealment are two different things.
ehh yes?... i think i failed to graps the point here, if there was any.

Ah, sort of like the irrelevance of "attacks of opportunity" you threw in earlier. However, there is relevance: these characters do have concealment, because they're standing in the effect of one of the cloud spells, all of which grant concealment against adjacent foes. They don't need to take any action to gain that concealment, as they would for hiding.


personaly i considder it better than the abuse you put it though, though neglect.

Logically, it doesn't matter what spell it is, since all of them grant concealment or better to anyone within the effect. (Obscuring mist states that it obscures all sight beyond 5 ft, granting total concealment to anyone further than 5 ft away. The other spells take their lead from either it or fog cloud, which limits vision the same way.) Since all of the people Haley killed in this strip are surrounded by fog/mist, logic dictates that they are within the spell effect. Since they are within the spell effect, they are logically immune to sneak attack.

I've agreed that there is one way it can possibly work, depending on DM interpretation: if the effect in question has been produced by silent image or one of the illusion spells that takes its lead from that. Again, credit to Slayn82 for pointing that out.

On another topic, as lame as Celia's "persuasive" argument is, the point that makes this different from Xykon's Bluff in the throne room (strip #106) is that it's not the Bluff check that does the persuading here. They're chasing Celia because their best chance of making a profit, even a small one, is based on grabbing all the loot they can before the boss shows up. That truth matters more than the lies attempted to set the whole thing up.

Considering the punishment waiting for them for leaving Haley unguarded as they pursue Celia, it's still an implausibly stupid thing for them all to do. The result is weaker than most "running through the corridor of doors" gags.

[Samurai Jill]

Wait a minute, sorry to jump in- why would ordinary concealment make SA impossible?

[Taekwondodo]

I don't know how common that is. In the games that I've played that use guilds, they usually are modelled after gangs. Either a very powerful Mafia - like gang that rules the whole city, or smaller ones that control neighborhoods. No problem in dungeons or in the wild for the "rogue" rogue, but in cities anyone who freelances has to be extremely good because you soon become a target for anyone who wants to either protect their turf or please a higher-up. Thus a guild does contain "dregs" but also pretty much every thief in the area belongs to some guild. The higher theives simply become officers in their respective guilds with all it's perks ( such as getting expendable "schlubbs" when needed). Rather a lawful way to control the law-breakers...

could keep down the population with battles between "gangs" as single rouges might end up a bit like rat population.

[nybbler]

Wait a minute, sorry to jump in- why would ordinary concealment make SA impossible?

Because Da Rulez says
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment "

Which is a pretty darn silly rule in some cases, such as this one. Creeping up out of the fog and whacking someone certainly seems to be a "sneak attack". Part of it may be that Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist/Solid Fog are much heavier than depicted, giving 100% concealment beyond 5 feet and 20% concealment at or within (depending on the spell, but the distinction is probably a mistake) 5 feet. The fog we see in the comic is much lighter; perhaps it is simply the Giant's interpretation of the area just outside the area of effect.

[Samurai Jill]

Huh. Why so they do. Fair enough. Good strip otherwise.

[NightHaunter]

Obscuring Mist at least has the possibility of not obscuring adjacent targets. Depending on your DM and the interpretation of the 5 feet away line for obscuring mist to grant concealment you can get close enough to negate it if you are fighting without a grid.
If you use a grid the target is granted concealment if a line drawn from one of your corners to any of the targets cornes pass through a square or border which grants concealment. If the enemies square is next to yours, you are going to measure the distance from your borders. Which means that the borders between your and the enemies square does not grant concealment. Then, if you read the passage about a square granting concealment to mean that the whole square must grant it and not just a tiny sliver of it, enemies in the squares next to you are not concealed.
Thus Obscuring Mist does not have to give concealment for mele range attacks, depending on interpretation.

[Samurai Jill]

Thus Obscuring Mist does not have to give concealment for mele range attacks, depending on interpretation.
Yeah. I've been thinking, instead of 4E conversion, Rich might translate the entire OOTS to some RPG system with simpler rules. No, Rich, seriously*- you'd love Burning Wheel. ...Go for it.


* should in no sense be interpreted as serious

[lord_khaine]

As I wrote before, all of them.

So it doesn't get missed this time, I will repeat that yet again: all of them.

More slowly, perhaps? All. Of. Them

and this is still following the faulty conclussion that its actualy a spell we know, its not like there has not been noncore and custum spells in the comic.

that aside, if you spend a bit more time actualy reading the text for Fog cloud (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsFtoG.html) and Obscuring Mist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html) then you might notice that the later Dont give concealment to targets within 5 feet.


Doesn't matter. They all provide concealment to adjacent foes.
Try reading the wordind of obscuring mist again.


Ah, sort of like the irrelevance of "attacks of opportunity" you threw in earlier. However, there is relevance: these characters do have concealment, because they're standing in the effect of one of the cloud spells, all of which grant concealment against adjacent foes. They don't need to take any action to gain that concealment, as they would for hiding
and i still dont get what you are talking about here.


Logically, it doesn't matter what spell it is, since all of them grant concealment or better to anyone within the effect. (Obscuring mist states that it obscures all sight beyond 5 ft, granting total concealment to anyone further than 5 ft away. The other spells take their lead from either it or fog cloud, which limits vision the same way.) Since all of the people Haley killed in this strip are surrounded by fog/mist, logic dictates that they are within the spell effect. Since they are within the spell effect, they are logically immune to sneak attack

but none of us has seen a Obscuring mist spell i action, so we cant know if the mist stops like if it ran into a invisible wall, or if it has a gradual edge, where there isnt any concealment, and even so, if Haley was standing beside all 3 of them she could still have fired off a sneak attack though an obscuring mist.


On another topic, as lame as Celia's "persuasive" argument is, the point that makes this different from Xykon's Bluff in the throne room (strip #106) is that it's not the Bluff check that does the persuading here. They're chasing Celia because their best chance of making a profit, even a small one, is based on grabbing all the loot they can before the boss shows up. That truth matters more than the lies attempted to set the whole thing up.

thats one way of reading the comic, the way i read it its because they are so poor, that they cannot afford the posibility that Celia actualy Does have a pot of gold.


Considering the punishment waiting for them for leaving Haley unguarded as they pursue Celia, it's still an implausibly stupid thing for them all to do. The result is weaker than most "running through the corridor of doors" gags.
but thats assuming a lot about their situation, it could be they considder Halye taken out, and know she only has one friend, it could be that they actualy are that stupid, and greedy, or maybe they dont care about Haley because they know Crystal is lurking around somewhere, and she should be pretty easy to pin any blame on.

[Zeku]

Respectfully, the Charity Money news may be an overreaction. Their official press release stated that they simply don't want the endorsement of a gaming convention associated with a name they've been protecting. They mentioned D+D specifically, and didn't seem to have an issue with it.

[Winged One]

Respectfully, the Charity Money news may be an overreaction. Their official press release stated that they simply don't want the endorsement of a gaming convention associated with a name they've been protecting. They mentioned D+D specifically, and didn't seem to have an issue with it.

...Link or it didn't happen. But even if that's the case, an insult made to appease the nutcases instead of because they are said nutcases is no less of an insult.

[Kazai]

I can understand disecting the comic to an extent, but it still is a comic. Spells, actions, reactions... everything can be adjusted to fit the plotline and make the story flow the way it should.

If Hailey couldn't fire a sneak attack through obscurring mist, then it never would have been cast in the first place.

[Ragn Charran]

I can understand disecting the comic to an extent, but it still is a comic. Spells, actions, reactions... everything can be adjusted to fit the plotline and make the story flow the way it should.

If Hailey couldn't fire a sneak attack through obscurring mist, then it never would have been cast in the first place.

Most logical statement I've seen in this thread.

[derfenrirwolv]

Try reading the wordind of obscuring mist again


Perhaps the question is a matter of interpretation rather than ignorance, in which case dicussing what the wording is an how you're reading it would be more usefull than implying ignorance on the part of the people who dissagree with you. I don't see any meaningfull difference in the wording of the spells, despite multiple readings.

Obscuring mist

A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

Fog cloud


The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).





Now here's the problem, and its a legitimate question. If you're using a hex grid, how far away is an opponent from you? Do they have concealment?


To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.

If you're in the cloud, the imaginary line starts at a point within concealment, and ends at a point within concealment. (even though it travels 0 distance.. points are funny that way) That means thre's concealment.

I would also say that it means you can't stand on the edge of the cloud to attack someone with no penalty while retaining the concealment yourself.



Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away,

Pole arms reach out to 10 feet. What reaches out to 5 feet? Normal melee weapons. That means that the two figures whos bases are touching on the table are considered 5 feet apart, not 0 feet.

The best answer is that haley has the feat which allows you to negate concealment.

[Kilbia]

Since someone else made mention of the "Charity Money Rejected" news item here, I'd just like to also go on record in support of Plan USA. I sponsored a child for a short while when I was in college (and back when they were called Childreach - it's been a while), and I absolutely cannot wait until my husband and I feel we're in a position for me to do that again.

[Kish]

I don't know how common that is. In the games that I've played that use guilds, they usually are modelled after gangs. Either a very powerful Mafia - like gang that rules the whole city, or smaller ones that control neighborhoods. No problem in dungeons or in the wild for the "rogue" rogue, but in cities anyone who freelances has to be extremely good because you soon become a target for anyone who wants to either protect their turf or please a higher-up. Thus a guild does contain "dregs" but also pretty much every thief in the area belongs to some guild. The higher theives simply become officers in their respective guilds with all it's perks ( such as getting expendable "schlubbs" when needed). Rather a lawful way to control the law-breakers...
We know about this guild, in any case, that:
(OtOoPCs spoilers)

1) They have membership cards.
2) An adventuring rogue must be either a member in good standing of a thieves' guild--or have a good Bluff score and be willing to lie about it.
3) They kill thieves* who operate in their territory without being members.
4) They tax away 99% of their members' take, so "you can adventure as a rogue if you join" and "you'll be killed if you freelance" seem to be the main reasons for Greysky City residents to choose to be part of the guild.

*I do mean "thief" here, not "rogue." A member of the rogue class who didn't steal would have no reason to run afoul of them, nor do I expect Bozzok would be inclined to show mercy to a single-classed wizard who happened to be a professional thief.

[Llaqus]

Hope the giant's doing ok, its been about a week and last week he only posted once. I would really hate for this to turn into what yugioh the abridged series turned into and have it to where there are 4 month spans between posts. It's the giant's life so he can do whatever he wants but i hope he at least informs the fans before quitting. I kinda feel like Little Kuriboh quit and just hasn't bothered to inform his fans. Anyway I'm sure its not that bad in this case, its probably along the lines of the giant being real busy or not feeling well but you can never tell until someone informs you.

[unithom]

...maybe one of his next jokes hinges on who won the election? :tongue:

In the meantime, sit back and try to enjoy all of the highly technical arguments over the minutiae of which classes must be at what level to cast which obscure variant of 'bewildering mist.'

[Shatteredtower]

and this is still following the faulty conclussion that its actualy a spell we know, its not like there has not been noncore and custum spells in the comic.

Show me evidence that Celia is the type to research her own spells. Show me a rogue stating, "Hey, why doesn't this spell grant me concealment?" Until you can do either, there is no fault in the conclusion that the spell follows the guidelines for obscuring mist.

But if that's not enough, then I direct your attention to Hank's advice to Haley: "You really shouldn't leave that much concealment floating around, incidentally." Heck, it was good enough to allow a fighter rushing in from behind Hank to hide.


that aside, if you spend a bit more time actualy reading the text for Fog cloud (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsFtoG.html) and Obscuring Mist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html) then you might notice that the later Dont give concealment to targets within 5 feet.

Yes, they do, if you understand what "5 feet" means as a rules mechanic.


Try reading the wordind of obscuring mist again.

You mean the part that says the spell grants total concealment to targets more than 5 feet (translation: more than one square) away?

So what you're claiming is that the spell grants no concealment to targets within a square of the opponent, concealment to anyone standing exactly 5 ft away from an attacker, and total concealment to anyone standing two squares away from an attacker?

Remember, another term for 5 ft in 3.5 rules is one square. (And if you use hexes, it will be one hex.) That means the "5 ft" can actually be a measure of up to 14 ft (and a few inches) at any given point in time, as measured between the far corners of diagonally adjacent squares. It is never solely an exact measure of 60 inches any more than the diameter of a 5 ft radius burst is always 10 ft.

Therefore, the proper reading of the rules for these spells states that they provide concealment to targets in an adjacent square, and total concealment to targets beyond that range. The alternative you propose, that the spells only provide concealment to someone standing exactly 5 ft away, is nonsense.


that but none of us has seen a Obscuring mist spell i action, so we cant know if the mist stops like if it ran into a invisible wall...

You mean the way fireball does if its effect would otherwise exceed the spell's range? The rules are quite clear on that, even when the resulting effect doesn't even approximate a sphere anymore.


...or if it has a gradual edge, where there isnt any concealment...

You'd think that something that could be detected visually by someone that couldn't see into squares covered by the spell's effect would be noted in the spell description. Since it isn't, there can be no claim for a gradual edge.


...and even so, if Haley was standing beside all 3 of them...

As is clearly shown in the comic, she is not. Even if she had been standing next to them, however, they'd still have had concealment once you understand what 5 ft means within the mechanical terms of the rules.


thats one way of reading the comic, the way i read it its because they are so poor, that they cannot afford the posibility that Celia actualy Does have a pot of gold.

Well, according to On the Origin of PCs, the guild's cut of earnings is outrageous (higher than 95% of the take in the one example we saw, as I recall), though that seemed to be both a means of maintaining the recommended wealth by level for Haley and a means of driving her out to seek an adventuring party. However, if they can afford to view the magic items Celia is seen to be as inconsequential, I have a hard time considering them to be poor: even a couple of hundred an item (low estimate) is still a ticket to more promising pastures.

Also, Hank's situation can't be that bad if he's the halfling... (OtOoS spoiler ahead)

...that was skimming from the guild's take.

Let's not forget that he's also a halfling with flunkies. Times can't be that tough for him. :smallwink:


...it could be they considder Halye taken out...

Possibly. If Celia's plan relies on that assumption, it's a very bad plan, but this sort of situation isn't her specialty and she is working under considerable time pressure.


...and know she only has one friend...

Maybe. Bozzak doesn't seem the sort to interpret "need to know" in liberal terms. Then again, Hank should know that there's also a cleric present, since he was present when Bozzak and Pete cut their deal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html).


...it could be that they actualy are that stupid...

Possibly. Not so sure in Hank's case, though, since he's still alive and intact (assuming he's the one mentioned in the OtOoS spoilers).


...and greedy...

While this seems a better fit for Hank, it makes it harder to believe he'd need convincing to seize the opportunity to grab a bit of extra loot. Also, if greed is sufficient motivation to pursue Celia, why wouldn't they have looted Haley first?


...or maybe they dont care about Haley because they know Crystal is lurking around somewhere, and she should be pretty easy to pin any blame on.

I don't see what you're getting at here. Crystal is the one person you could count on to not leave Haley alive, given a chance to kill her. How could Hank pin the blame on her when he'd have been between Haley and Crystal in the first place? The idea that Crystal would have gone on ahead of this group and avoided a confrontation with Haley seems highly unlikely as well.

However, I suspect that I'm just misunderstanding your point here, because every other argument you've made for how this scenario played out has much more merit. I have my doubts about all of them, but concede that are all both possible and plausible enough. So if I misunderstood the last point, could you please rephrase it?

Editted to add:


If Hailey couldn't fire a sneak attack through obscurring mist, then it never would have been cast in the first place.

You're not seriously claiming that Haley or Celia are incapable of making a mistake, are you?

[Nevitan]

You're not seriously claiming that Haley or Celia are incapable of making a mistake, are you?

I think lord_khaine is just saying that they are playing DnD and Haley and Celia knew why they wanted to cast a obscuring spell so they would of made sure that it would have this effect before casting it.

[Joe_Barbarian]

Sorry to but in and maybe I just don't get it but since all of Haley's targets spoke before she attacked would that not reduce their "concealment"? Since she cannot use "sight" to locate her enemies why could she not just use her ears. They all spoke and did not move after they spoke. That is until Haley pin-cushioned them.
:smallconfused:

[dps]

I don't see what you're getting at here. Crystal is the one person you could count on to not leave Haley alive, given a chance to kill her. How could Hank pin the blame on her when he'd have been between Haley and Crystal in the first place? The idea that Crystal would have gone on ahead of this group and avoided a confrontation with Haley seems highly unlikely as well.



I don't want to put words into someone else's mouth, but I think that his point was that Crystal was told that she gets to kill Haley, so the job of the other Guild members was mostly to smoke Haley out for Crystal, take care of the "traitor priest" and collect Celia for Grubbwiggler. So Hank can chase after Celia, and if that allows Haley to get away or defeat Crystal, then Hank can say that he was doing his job--he and the others left Haley for Crystal to kill while making sure that Grubbwiggler's "property", i.e., Celia's body, didn't get away--and if Crystal screwed up by failing to kill Haley, that's not Hanks's fault.

[Shatteredtower]

I think lord_khaine is just saying that they are playing DnD and Haley and Celia knew why they wanted to cast a obscuring spell so they would of made sure that it would have this effect before casting it.

That was Kazai's comment, not lord_khaine's. As Kazai also wrote:


Spells, actions, reactions... everything can be adjusted to fit the plotline and make the story flow the way it should.

-- I don't think the post meant something along the lines you propose. I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended to mean as I'm interpreting it either, but that is what I'm getting from it.


Sorry to but in...

Please, don't be. Sorry if I've made you feel you shouldn't post a query or a comment.


...and maybe I just don't get it but since all of Haley's targets spoke before she attacked would that not reduce their "concealment"? Since she cannot use "sight" to locate her enemies why could she not just use her ears. They all spoke and did not move after they spoke. That is until Haley pin-cushioned them.
:smallconfused:

There's a lot of sense to what you're proposing, but it's not how the rules for sneak attacks work -- even where it makes more sense than those rules.

The rule is that if you can't see your opponent clearly, you can't perform a sneak attack. (Oddly enough, you can still perform a coup de grace in these circumstances.) Concealment is the state defined by the rules as one in which you can't be seen clearly. It can be provided by mist, blizzard, sandstorm, or candlelit conditions (unless the viewer can see clearly in such conditions), among others. Concealment doesn't keep you from being seen, unless you are able to successfully make a Hide check while in an area that provides it.

Total concealment, on the other hand, such as is provided by a completly unlit room (or against a foe that's been blinded) does prevent you from being seen at all. A rogue standing in broad daylight is normally free to perform sneak attacks against a blinded enemy who is completely aware of his presence -- even if the rogue is singing at the top of his lungs and dancing in tap shoes. (There are exceptions, but that's the general rule.)


I don't want to put words into someone else's mouth, but I think that his point was that Crystal was told that she gets to kill Haley, so the job of the other Guild members was mostly to smoke Haley out for Crystal, take care of the "traitor priest" and collect Celia for Grubbwiggler.

Ah. Okay, that does make a lot of sense. That's an excellent point, against which I have no argument. Thank you.

[Kazai]

I actually did mean pretty much what you're interpretting it as Shattered Tower.

Obviously the comic is based on DND, but that doesn't mean everything has to follow exactly. Just as the Giant doesn't want to give specific levels to the characters, or specify exactly their spells/abilities. It would make a future idea hard to incorporate than just saying x could do y all along, just hadn't yet. Essentially I'm saying a spell can be tweaked to be what it needs to be to make exactly what happened happen.

Anyways it was a slightly sarcastic comment because I didn't really see a reason for how indepth the arguement had gotten other than the length of time between comic posts ;)

[lord_khaine]

Show me evidence that Celia is the type to research her own spells. Show me a rogue stating, "Hey, why doesn't this spell grant me concealment?" Until you can do either, there is no fault in the conclusion that the spell follows the guidelines for obscuring mist.

But if that's not enough, then I direct your attention to Hank's advice to Haley: "You really shouldn't leave that much concealment floating around, incidentally." Heck, it was good enough to allow a fighter rushing in from behind Hank to hide.


No, you can show me evidence that it can only be Obscuring mist, until then the comic supports the conclussion that there is only concealment to targets who are 5 feet away or more.

Hank's advice isnt worth anything here, all it does is to tell us you can actualy get concealment from the cloud, it doesnt tell how far inside you has to be.


Yes, they do, if you understand what "5 feet" means as a rules mechanic.
no they dont, if you actualy play d&d once in a while, i really cant see how you can get this one wrong, it says targets 5 feet away has concealment, so if a target is 0 feet away, from fx standing besides you, then it dont have concealment.


Therefore, the proper reading of the rules for these spells states that they provide concealment to targets in an adjacent square, and total concealment to targets beyond that range. The alternative you propose, that the spells only provide concealment to someone standing exactly 5 ft away, is nonsense

no, proper reading of the rules says they give concealment to targets 5 feet away, and total concealment to targets more than that, there is nothing strange in that, if you considder it from a grid-based look.


You mean the way fireball does if its effect would otherwise exceed the spell's range? The rules are quite clear on that, even when the resulting effect doesn't even approximate a sphere anymore

you are misunderstanding me here i suspect, i was refering to if the fog stopped like it was cut off by an invisible wall, or if there was a gradual thinning of the fog outside the area, that did not actualy give concealment, but that was still foggy.


You'd think that something that could be detected visually by someone that couldn't see into squares covered by the spell's effect would be noted in the spell description. Since it isn't, there can be no claim for a gradual edge.

no, i dont think thats something that would be considderet mentioning in the rules, so ill continue to claim its a possibility.


As is clearly shown in the comic, she is not. Even if she had been standing next to them, however, they'd still have had concealment once you understand what 5 ft means within the mechanical terms of the rules.
actualy, if you are reading the same comic as the rest of us, then you should have been able to see, that she standing just behind them, the comic even draws out attention to it, when she calls it Point blank Rapid shot.
in the mechanical terms of d&d, something 5 feet away is one square away, so it would be possible for her to sneak attack, i dont know what game you are talking about here.


Well, according to On the Origin of PCs, the guild's cut of earnings is outrageous (higher than 95% of the take in the one example we saw, as I recall), though that seemed to be both a means of maintaining the recommended wealth by level for Haley and a means of driving her out to seek an adventuring party. However, if they can afford to view the magic items Celia is seen to be as inconsequential, I have a hard time considering them to be poor: even a couple of hundred an item (low estimate) is still a ticket to more promising pastures.

once again you seems to be reading the comic in a different way, i see it as that the rogue speaking isnt buying Celias bluff at first, because she isnt wearing anything that would be oblious magical.


Let's not forget that he's also a halfling with flunkies. Times can't be that tough for him.
hey, if he has to pay his flunkies times may actualy be tougher for him.


Possibly. Not so sure in Hank's case, though, since he's still alive and intact (assuming he's the one mentioned in the OtOoS spoilers).

In Hank's case it might be that he belives he is able to bluff his way out of any trouble.


While this seems a better fit for Hank, it makes it harder to believe he'd need convincing to seize the opportunity to grab a bit of extra loot. Also, if greed is sufficient motivation to pursue Celia, why wouldn't they have looted Haley first?

because they think Celia is richer, and that they can go back to Haley after they caught Celia.


I don't see what you're getting at here. Crystal is the one person you could count on to not leave Haley alive, given a chance to kill her. How could Hank pin the blame on her when he'd have been between Haley and Crystal in the first place? The idea that Crystal would have gone on ahead of this group and avoided a confrontation with Haley seems highly unlikely as well.

well, for a start, since i have read OoTPC i belive Hank has a pretty decent bluff skill, while crystal on the other hand is mainly good at killing things.
so he could take excuses himself with that Haley was to high level for him, so she got away, and that its Crystals fault for not being there to take care of her.


You're not seriously claiming that Haley or Celia are incapable of making a mistake, are you?
well, i at least would chose to credit Haley with knowing her class well enough, not to try and make sneak attacks against anything with concealment.


I don't want to put words into someone else's mouth, but I think that his point was that Crystal was told that she gets to kill Haley, so the job of the other Guild members was mostly to smoke Haley out for Crystal, take care of the "traitor priest" and collect Celia for Grubbwiggler. So Hank can chase after Celia, and if that allows Haley to get away or defeat Crystal, then Hank can say that he was doing his job--he and the others left Haley for Crystal to kill while making sure that Grubbwiggler's "property", i.e., Celia's body, didn't get away--and if Crystal screwed up by failing to kill Haley, that's not Hanks's fault.

yeah, thats actualy a pretty well explanation of what i was trying to say, maybe even better than i could have said it :smalltongue:

[Samurai Jill]

Do be honest, I don't really consider the rule violation here to be a major slipup. I dunno. Maybe Obscuring Mist et al just function slightly differently in the OOTSverse.

[Shatteredtower]

No, you can show me evidence that it can only be Obscuring mist, until then the comic supports the conclussion that there is only concealment to targets who are 5 feet away or more.

Hank says otherwise. Since he's there, he would know.


no they dont, if you actualy play d&d once in a while, i really cant see how you can get this one wrong, it says targets 5 feet away has concealment, so if a target is 0 feet away, from fx standing besides you, then it dont have concealment.

The spell description also says that a target standing more than 5 ft away has total concealment. According to the rules, that's "more than one square". That's the rule used for such things as reach, spell effects or areas, and range increments, consistent with the general "round down" policy the rules have for numerical values.

If a range increment is 10 feet, then anything within 2 squares can be targetted without penalty. If a spell grants total concealment to anyone more than 5 feet away, it grants total concealment to anyone 2 or more squares away. Since the spell also grants concealment to targets closer than that, those targets must be within one square of the attacker. That is consistent with the explanation giving for the reach of Large or larger creatures on page 149 of the PHB:

"For instance, an ogre can attack targets up to 10 feet (2 squares) away from it in any direction, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet."

An ogre, a Large (tall) creature, has a natural reach of 10 feet. That number is the endpoint of its reach, the far end of any eligible square. Obscuring mist gives two categories for visual limitations: "5 feet" and "farther away [than 5 feet]". Based on the rounding down rule for numerical values, especially as they are applied to the grids, the only proper value for "5 feet" as described in the spell is "within 5 feet".


you are misunderstanding me here i suspect, i was refering to if the fog stopped like it was cut off by an invisible wall, or if there was a gradual thinning of the fog outside the area, that did not actualy give concealment, but that was still foggy.

No, I understood. For all intents and purposes, spell effects are subject to "invisible wall" limitations, unable to cross its borders. If you can't see into the squares of the spell's effect, you can't see any trace of the spell by normal means.


no, i dont think thats something that would be considderet mentioning in the rules, so ill continue to claim its a possibility.

The problem is that, according to your interpretation, a person could stand in an effect of the spell that is not the spell effect, one that can clearly be seen even when the spell effect itself cannot. By your interpretation, if someone cast a fog cloud to place the border of its effect right behind an illusory wall, someone standing on the other side of the illusion from the cloud would still see traces of the fog. If the rules allowed for such a possibility, it would have been mentioned in the rules somewhere.


actualy, if you are reading the same comic as the rest of us...

First, don't speak on behalf of anyone else reading this comic. Second, you know very well that I'm reading the same comic you are. Third, the Giant's artwork does not share the perspective problems displayed in medieval-period artwork, meaning that when people are shown standing in a line measured along a horizontal plane, they are not instead occupying a vertical plane and (in Haley's case) a point next to it.


... then you should have been able to see, that she standing just behind them, the comic even draws out attention to it, when she calls it Point blank Rapid shot.

Point blank range applies to anything within 30 feet, even for weapons with a shorter range increment than 30 feet. Therefore, Haley's declaration does not support your claim.


in the mechanical terms of d&d, something 5 feet away is one square away...

If you mean it's in a square adjacent to one corner of your own, you're correct. If you mean there's a square separating the square you occupy and the target, as you've argued for obscuring mist, you'd be incorrect.


...so it would be possible for her to sneak attack, i dont know what game you are talking about here.

I'm talking about the fact that, as portrayed by the images in the first few panels, the rogues Haley attacked can't all be standing within 5 feet of her. Even by your own interpretation of obscuring mist, that means she couldn't perform a sneak attack on all three of them.

Of course, we're ignoring the fact that Haley is standing in a clearly lit area without any visible sources of lighting, despite the fact that it's in a basement belonging to a blind guy.


hey, if he has to pay his flunkies times may actualy be tougher for him.

That's like saying times are tough because you can't afford to keep a racehorse.


because they think Celia is richer, and that they can go back to Haley after they caught Celia.

That makes no sense. The whole point of Celia's bluff is to lure the invaders away from Haley, allowing the latter a chance to get away. Hank's movement rate is slower than that of a sylph capable of flying, implying that her encumbrance can't possibly be that great.

You've heard the adage about the bird in hand being worth more than two in the bush? Well, then, it's also worth more than the one that's already taken flight -- especially when it is obviously flying away for no other purpose than to lead a predator away from a nest.


well, i at least would chose to credit Haley with knowing her class well enough, not to try and make sneak attacks against anything with concealment.

Haley is written by the Giant, who has made rules-based mistakes before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html). (You can only draw one attack of opportunity for any given action from any given opponent once per round. Charging counts as only one action, regardless of how many squares you pass through.)


Do be honest, I don't really consider the rule violation here to be a major slipup. I dunno. Maybe Obscuring Mist et al just function slightly differently in the OOTSverse.

Maybe, and if the Giant wishes to somehow justify it later, the way he did Miko's escape from a forcecage, fair enough. (However, I think he'd intended the escapable version gag from the outset. Maybe he's got one planned for this as well.) Right now, however, it stands out as a rule ignored in the face of another rules-based joke (the Improved Uncanny Dodge gag) in a strip that already comes across as rather tattered to me.

[Moechi_Vill]

Mr Power-Attack Fighter can clearly handle Haley alone in melee with nowhere to run. Celia's plan is nothing but a distraction, not a trap, and they have to capture/kill her anyway to fulfill their property retrieval obligations to Grubwiggler, so it's not they can afford to let her get away either in the first place.

Then they should stab her a few times while she's lying on the ground and first then send two guys after the fairy. The fairy is not very combat capable except for a few tricks. It is very clear that Haley needs to be terminated.

And the guild is elite in that they have level 8 fighters on outreach programs and thus should have high-level members at the top. I know 8 is lower mid-level, but it is still high for an NPC organization. Like others have said, level 8 is elite for a follower of an NPC guild... and an outreach member at that.

Her equipment should be valuable to say the least.
Going for Celia is chasing the pot of gold behind the rainbow with ten pots of gold right in front of you.

They had Haley dead to rights and they're leaving her alive so she can continue in the story... probably face off with Crystal and kill her. This to me looks very much like a Deux Ex Machina where Haley can get realistically beat up, but still survive to see another day.
A useful plot tool, but its done too transparent this time.

[Animefunkmaster]

The Giant, who has made rules-based mistakes before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html). (You can only draw one attack of opportunity for any given action from any given opponent once per round. Charging counts as only one action, regardless of how many squares you pass through.)

Not entirely accurate. Under normal circumstances you only get one aoo per round. With combat reflexes you get up to your dex modifier for every action that provokes. Now there is a more than a few options available when that comic was written that could allow such actions. Lets start with the chain from OA, it has reach and is a double weapon. Lets throw into the mix combat reflexes, double hit (mini hb), and stand still (srd). Then the target would both get hit by two AoOs stop his charge and have two hits per action that triggered the AoO.

Also thicket of blades... just sayin.

[David Argall]

Then they should stab her a few times while she's lying on the ground and first then send two guys after the fairy.

Not a reasonable strategy here. It takes time to stab Haley, time in which Celia gets away. Nor will it do for two guys to go after her. They will report back that she got away [and it is only a coincidence that they suddenly have a lot of magic.] Obviously all of the thieves have to go after Celia at the same time or they will be left out of this mythical loot.

Recall that none of these thieves really care if Haley lives or not. They do care about a 10%? chance that Celia is easy treasure. If they can make up any sort of story that will keep the boss off their back, they are better off letting Haley live and hoping Celia actually does have some goodies.

[Moechi_Vill]

Not a reasonable strategy here. It takes time to stab Haley, time in which Celia gets away. Nor will it do for two guys to go after her. They will report back that she got away [and it is only a coincidence that they suddenly have a lot of magic.] Obviously all of the thieves have to go after Celia at the same time or they will be left out of this mythical loot.

Recall that none of these thieves really care if Haley lives or not. They do care about a 10%? chance that Celia is easy treasure. If they can make up any sort of story that will keep the boss off their back, they are better off letting Haley live and hoping Celia actually does have some goodies.

Haley is carrying very to extremely expensive equipment visible right in front of them.
Celia's treasure is hypothetical and highly doubtful at that (that was a low bluff roll (even if to facilitate the joke) and Hank and the others had high enough sense motive, seeing as how they expressed doubt - they pretty much volountarily took 1) plus they know she is bait and they are abandoning their missions, revenge, and future safety (thieves are often survivalists and Hank seems to be one).

I play thieves all the time... suffice to say in my experience I would never drop high-level armor, weapons and whatever high-level equipment and money Haley carries to check out what kind of treasure a fairy is carrying who is OBVIOUSLY baiting me. And frankly, Haley would be high-level enough for some of my characters in such a situation to worry about whether she's capable of killing them later.

It just doesn't add up.

Haley is a walking pile of gold like any adventurer their primary target they'll get reprimanded for allowing to survive and a clear and present threat.
Celia is a fairy some local magic-user needs for parts who's obviously baiting them who is likely not carrying any good treasure if at all since she's baiting them.

Summary of Argument
Haley is a primary target worth tons of gold. She may kill them later and they may be reprimanded for losing her.
Celia is a secondary target probably not worth any gold since they know she's baiting them.

[Morty]

Summary of Argument
Haley is a primary target worth tons of gold. She may kill them later and they may be reprimanded for losing her.
Celia is a secondary target probably not worth any gold since they know she's baiting them.

In case you haven't noticed, OoTS is a comedy. In comedy, people make completely unreasonable on regular basis as long as it's funny.

[Moechi_Vill]

Comedy does not always rely on logical inconsistencies. OOTS has usually held a high line this regard. Not that I think its not a valuable form of comedy, I get the sacrifice, I just think it was too unbalanced this time on the logic versus joke scale (plus I guess not liking the jokes this time personally figures in mightily as well, and I've always been a fan of realistic combat strategy).

Personal tastes I guess.