Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters! [Archive]

RMS Oceanic

2008-10-31, 05:12 AM

If you don't read Rich's news posts, the late Gary Gygax's favourite charity, Christian Children's Fund (http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/) has Refused $17,000 (http://www.livegameauctions.com/CharityAuction.jsp) raised by GenCon in a charity auction, because some of the money came from the selling of "Always Chaotic Evil" (If I may borrow the term from TVTropes) Dungeons & Dragons merchandise.

That's got me mad, not only because of the narrow-mindedness of the charity about D&D, but that they would refuse legitimately raised funds which would help the people they promise to help, because they disagree with what was sold. I could understand if that money was drug money, or money that was robbed from a bank, but it's not. It's legally raised by people who want to help starving children.

So I thought this thread would be a good place for those of us who want to follow Rich's idea and give them a piece of our mind (mailto:[email protected]?subject=Rejecting the goodwill of roleplaying gamers?). We can all write our individual letters here, as well as proof read and fact check other's letters, before sending them on.

To whom it may concern,

I was most distressed to learn of your refusal of $17,000 raised at a legitimate charity auction at GenCon, citing the selling of "Dungeons & Dragons" merchandise for the refusal. First of all, I believe you have demonstrated a narrow-minded attitude to role playing games. They are not gateway games to Paganism or Satanic Worship. I myself am a devout Catholic, and to me, the game is an exercise in imagination and story telling, as well as a great way to expand one's volcabulary, and encourage team work and friendship.

The second issue I have, which is really curious, is that the late Gary Gygax, co-creator of "Dungeons & Dragons", was a follower of your charity, and after he passed away in March of this year, many "Dungeons & Dragons" players chose to donate to you, and yet these were accepted without qualm.

The final issue I have, which is far more important, is that you have refused $17,000 which could have gone to the children you have promised to protect, because you disagree with what was legally sold. I could understand if the funds were raised due to illicit activity like racketeering or drug selling, but you have chosen to put your own worldview above the needs of the children, which demonstrates a level of selfishness.

I hope you reconsider this policy in terms of future donations, because a charity should be about the cause it has chosen to champion. It's important in this world to "live and let live", and when funds are offered by someone legitimately, even if you disagree with their worldview, you should not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Yours sincerely,

[name]

How does that look? I'm worried it's a little strong.

Charity

2008-10-31, 05:17 AM

Heck I'll take it.
and that is in no way too strong btw.

dish

2008-10-31, 05:24 AM

*cut for length*

How does that look? I'm worried it's a little strong.

It reads as perfectly polite and reasonable to me.

Remember, in this situation one snail mail letter counts as twenty times more important than an email, so I suggest you find the charity's postal address and actually mail it to them.

Yarram

2008-10-31, 05:28 AM

It reads as perfectly polite and reasonable to me.

Remember, in this situation one snail mail letter counts as twenty times more important than an email, so I suggest you find the charity's postal address and actually mail it to them.

Seconded definately... It kinda angers me that they see DnD as some kindof satanic ritual group... What kind of satanic ritual group donates to charity anyway?

dish

2008-10-31, 05:40 AM

Seconded definately... It kinda angers me that they see DnD as some kindof satanic ritual group... What kind of satanic ritual group donates to charity anyway?

Dunno. Maybe there are special secret satanic charities? :smallconfused:

Griever

2008-10-31, 05:44 AM

Seconded definately... It kinda angers me that they see DnD as some kindof satanic ritual group... What kind of satanic ritual group donates to charity anyway?

DnD, apparently? :smallwink:

Castaras

2008-10-31, 05:57 AM

Dunno. Maybe there are special secret satanic charities? :smallconfused:

Every 10 seconds, an imp dies from lack of blood of the innocents.

Every minute, an archdevil gets murdered by passing angels.

Every hour, a worshipper of Satan gets burnt alive.

With just 1 pound a month, this could be stopped.

It takes £23 to feed an imp for the rest of it's life.

It takes £284 to install the defences necessary to murder said angel.

It takes £529 to save a worshipper of Satan from the flames, and to give them a chance of a new life.

We need your donations. If you wish to donate, please call 616-666-616-666

Project_Mayhem

2008-10-31, 06:00 AM

Every minute, an cthulhu monstrosity disappears from lack of worshippers.

If they require worshipers, they ain't cthuloid.

Castaras

2008-10-31, 06:03 AM

shush. Details, details. :smalltongue:

Edit: Changed now. Happy? :smallwink:

Samurai Jill

2008-10-31, 06:03 AM

How does that look? I'm worried it's a little strong.
Pfft. Kinda tame for my tastes. Add some bile.

Project_Mayhem

2008-10-31, 06:14 AM

Pfft. Kinda tame for my tastes. Add some bile.

Yeah.

Dear Filth,
...

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 06:14 AM

I have allready e-mailed them, will write when I get home. Speaking as a gamer and an Anglican, this is utterly vile and petty behaviour. I hope that you all out there remember than many Christians actualy try and follow the message of tollerance, peace and honest conduct that the church preaches, rather than this kind of, you know what I can't finish this scentance without upsetting the Moderators so I am just going to his send now and go scream at a bathroom mirror till I loose my voice.

KnightDisciple

2008-10-31, 06:19 AM

Change the last bit from "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" to something like "be willing to accept this with a spirit of grace, understanding the shared concern for your cause."
If it were in the middle of the letter it would be one thing, but I think ending on a saying like that might weaken the letter, literarily speaking.
Also, maybe take this: "First of all, I believe you have demonstrated a narrow-minded attitude to role playing games. They are not gateway games to Paganism or Satanic Worship. "
And say something like this: "First of all, I your words would seem to demonstrate a narrow-minded attitude to role playing games. If that was not your intent, it is nonetheless the attitude many will believe you are displaying. These games are not gateways to Paganism or Satanic Worship. They have no inherent world-view attached to them, being intended solely for tools for enjoyment and imagination." (Or something to that affect; show an effort to try to reach common understanding; it will go over much better, I daresay.)
Overall, a very calm-sounding letter. My changes are minor, and more of a "how I would write it" than anything.
I think that it's a very good response, especially as an attempt to actually get them to listen. Bile and anger only breed more reactionism.

Lord Herman

2008-10-31, 06:19 AM

I, too, have already send them an e-mail. It was not a friendly e-mail.

pendell

2008-10-31, 06:21 AM

Project_Mayhem

2008-10-31, 06:22 AM

Bile and anger only breed more reactionism.

Embrace the dark side

To actually contribute, I think it's messed up, but it's just another example of idiots making idiotic decisions. At least another, more accomodating charity was found.

KnightDisciple

2008-10-31, 06:22 AM

I think it looks just fine.

I strongly recommend AGAINST anyone adding bile to their letters. I assume that CCF believes D&D is a work "of the flesh" and showing rage, anger, upset will only serve to confirm them in that belief further.

RMS -- it may be if they are Jack Chick - type believers that they will not consider Catholics Christians either. Yeah, I know. But we can discuss that offline.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hm. Point...in light of this, might I reccommend changing "Catholic" to "Christian"? No meaning is lost, and it sounds less...denominational? Again, trying to approach a common understanding, as it were. It'll work wonders.

Gez

2008-10-31, 06:30 AM

I think it's quite blatant that a charity with such an ignorant and intolerant worldview is one that should never be given even an eighth of a penny. I bet they're young-and-flat-earth creationists who would burn Giordano Bruno at the stake over and over again if given the chance.

These people are clearly evil, pushing an agenda of religious oppression and obscurantism, and we should rejoice that they did not get the money because who know what they would have used it for? I'm sure there's a big chunk of indoctrination in their "educational programs" and "child sponsorships".

Rason

2008-10-31, 06:43 AM

I sent in my two cents.

Felixaar

2008-10-31, 06:47 AM

Every 10 seconds, an imp dies from lack of blood of the innocents.

Every minute, an archdevil gets murdered by passing angels.

Every hour, a worshipper of Satan gets burnt alive.

With just 1 pound a month, this could be stopped.

It takes £23 to feed an imp for the rest of it's life.

It takes £284 to install the defences necessary to murder said angel.

It takes £529 to save a worshipper of Satan from the flames, and to give them a chance of a new life.

We need your donations. If you wish to donate, please call 616-666-616-666

*sniffle* those... poor... IMPS!

Oh wait. I eat Imps for breakfast. E, screw 'em.

Hope the OP doesnt mind but I more or less copied your letter changing a few personal details, since I think you stated it pretty damn well.

Out of curiosity, if they still dont accept the money, has anyone considered the "Fill Felixaar's Bank Account" charity? or "Get Bor a Plasma TV"?

RMS Oceanic

2008-10-31, 06:51 AM

Rich states in his news post GenCon proceeded to donate the money to the Fisher House Foundation (http://www.fisherhouse.org/).

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 07:15 AM

I am e-mailing to enquire as to the exact circumstances surounding your apparent rejection of a substantial donation by GenCon2008. I have heard rumours that you turned down this donation besed on the fact that it was raised in part on the sales of Dungons and Dragons materials. Please tell me this is not so.

Over the years a lot of poorly informed and hateful people have blamed Dungeons and Dragons for a wide veriaty of societies ill and placed at its feet allegations of unholy or unwholesome practices, but I had thought that we had outgrown this era of petty sniping and rumour mongering. There is nothing less christian than to spread flase rumour or to persuce others for their lawful and harmless passtimes. Gary Gygax, that co-creator of the game, was a frequent donator to your cause during his life and, if the rumors are true, this is a slap in the face of him, his family and gamers world wide.

I have been an Anglican in the Church in Wales all of my life and am a member of several christian orginisations and am also an avid gamer. I have yet to find a single argument against gaming in general and D&D in particular that has ever been substantiated. I e-mail to ask you for yoru reasons and to hope that you have not fallen into the trap of blind hatred.
Dear Mr. Foweraker,

Christian Children’s Fund made the decision to decline the gift from Gen Con, LLC as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.So, that is their line on the matter.

Bayar

2008-10-31, 07:27 AM

Wait, people still think that D&D is satanic? Wasnt that in the 80's or something ?

Project_Mayhem

2008-10-31, 07:28 AM

I sent in my two cents.

did they turn it down?

drumroll

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 07:29 AM

Wait, people still think that D&D is satanic? Wasnt that in the 80's or something ?

According to them, they don't. I suspect however that they may have large, frequent donators who do.

Raz_Fox

2008-10-31, 07:32 AM

I'm saddened that they would refuse, but knowing it was because of their laws of charity and accepting rather than "D&D! EVIL!" makes me feel better.

Until I saw EvilDMMK3's last post, I was in the same state of mind as him. Quite a shame, and something to be prayed about.

Jack Squat

2008-10-31, 07:43 AM

So, that is their line on the matter.

Wait...if they were supporters/endorsers of GenCon, wouldn't they be giving money to it? I would think this more appears that GenCon is supporting the CCF. They also could have accepted it as an anonymous donation, unless GenCon wanted to try and get their name out.

Mauve Shirt

2008-10-31, 08:02 AM

I read this thread's title and thought "Wait, who is giving Charity money and why?" :smallamused:

pendell

2008-10-31, 08:15 AM

darrell

2008-10-31, 08:16 AM

I know at the end of the day it makes no difference to what actually happened, but to correct something:

It appears, from reading about this situation on other blogs, can't recall who exactly, it was someone in the industry who was involved with Gen Con, that they didn't directly turn the money down, they actually said before the event that they didn't want to be the beneficiary.

Same result at the end of the day; just as stupid, but a little politer.

Peregrine

2008-10-31, 08:21 AM

So, that is their line on the matter.

Thanks for that, EvilDMMk3. :smallsmile: It makes me feel better to know the reason, even if I think it's still a stupid reason -- not that CCF is stupid; I know that's how charities in general are obliged for various reasons to work a lot of the time, and that's stupid.

I did wonder when I saw that news post, and read about it elsewhere, why there was nothing actually quoting CCF on the matter -- everyone just seemed to see "Christian" and "didn't accept money from D&D/RPGing con" and assume that moral panic was the reason. I wonder if there's any way to get their response put up on the various sites (including this one) that have reported on this?

Codo

2008-10-31, 08:25 AM

Here's the letter I'm sending off. I changed it after I read the reason that was stated to be why they rejected the money.

I’m surprised at your organization’s decision to turn down the money donated by GenCon. As one of the people who made a donation towards that money, I am saddened by your decision. It was never the understanding by myself or anybody I know that attended the convention that your organization had endorsed GenCon. My understanding is that the donation was basically supposed to be a ‘In Memory Of Gary Gygax’ donation to your charity as your charity was one of his favorites.

It is not like GenCon is Crack Dealers Anonymous or some other sketchy organization that a charity might be afraid to have any association with. Like the good Christians you purport to be, why could you not simply accept the gift in the spirit it was given? We’re talking about starving children here.

I am VERY very disappointed in your organization and will seek to make sure any future donations of mine avoid your coffers.

KnightDisciple

2008-10-31, 08:35 AM

Hm. :smallconfused:
Now it sounds like a combo of "we have to jump through lots of legal hoops and stuff with donations" and "we don't do lots of endorsements, which this would have appeared to be; it was nothing specific with the con or Gygax or anything". But then, I may be wrong. I have the feeling that, one way or another, it wasn't really in the hands of the people who "made the call", as it were.

Pentegarn

2008-10-31, 08:37 AM

My 2 coppers, sent already via email

Greetings ladies and gentleman of the Christian Children's Fund,

I recently read an article regarding the fact that you declined a rather substantial donation from GenCon because they raised some of the funds by sales of products from the Wizard's of the Cost line 'Dungeons & Dragons'. I could go into a tirade about the abject foolishness of this sort of blind hate fueled thinking, but rather than do that. I feel I should point out a few observations to you about D&D players, Christianity, and hypocrisy.

- I am aware of the 'scare articles' that were put out in the 1970s and 1980s regarding D&D. Not one of them has one fact about the game, it's players, or the culture around it correct. But I doubt fact checking is in your agenda, as it usually gets in the way of the sort of blind hatred you like to show towards those you want to hate. Everyone needs an arch nemesis I suppose, and D&D players (who are much less likely to worship devils or demons than they are to worship comic books and junk food) will fit your requirements.

- As far as I have been taught, I understood it that Christians were supposed to be kind, understanding, and nonjudgmental, (I.E. What Would Jesus Do; Judge not lest ye be judged; Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; etc.) Don't you think, when you say you worship the Son of God, a being who had nothing but love in his heart for all men, that you give a mixed message by declining money from D&D players to feed hungry children because you dislike what they are and what they do?

- Money itself is an object that simply exists. It passes often through multiple hands. At some point, those hands might just happen to be drug lords, murderers, rapists, thieves, and many other sorts of miscreants. So if you have issue with where the money came from, aren't all donations potentially tainted? Claiming ignorance of where the money came from does not change the fact that it has more than likely at some point been used for/by evil people. So I submit to you that any donation you receive is tainted and you are in fact hypocrites for taking it. Since intent doesn't matter in your eyes obviously, I would assume you will from this point on only be accepting money from the US Mint yes? But then again, The US has been involved in wars (where people have been kill [remember: Thou shalt not kill?] so their money is tainted too by your logic. Perhaps you should not accept any donations at all, there's a chance it may be evil money after all.

Warmest regards,

Tim

JoseB

2008-10-31, 08:50 AM

Well, this is my own letter. Possibly strong, but that is what I truly felt I had to write.

I write this message to you to express my disgust and my repulse of your attitude, when you rejected the $17,000 raised in good faith for your charity during the latest GenCon in Indianapolis. Rejecting that money that could have helped many children in need because it was partly raised from sales of "Dungeons and Dragons" materials is, not only stupid (if you were better informed you would understand that D&D has absolutely nothing to do with "satanism" of any kind), but bordering the vile, for it prevents that money from going to people who really need it.

Not to mention the fact that it is a slap in the face of the many people who gave with the understanding that their money would be trust into your care for you to use in good works.

Your charity was chosen precisely because you were the preferred charity of Mr. Gary Gygax, inventor of the "Dungeons and Dragons" game, who donated to you many times in the past and passed recently. In the wake of his passing, many of us gamers, many of us "Dungeons and Dragons" gamers, donated to you. Mr. Gygax' money was not "tainted" then? Our money was not "tainted" then?

"Dungeons and Dragons", as a game, doesn't "taint" any money. It is tantamount to saying that chess taints money.

You have lost a lot of goodwill, and in the long term you have hurt, not you, nor your charity, but the people that you purport to be helping, the weakest members of society, the children that have nothing. We gamers will find other outlets for our charity that will take our money, and it will find its way to other deserving recipients among those who have little or no means... But they will not be those who COULD have been helped by those $17,000 that were ready for you.

Look at those people in the face and tell them that you didn't want to take that money and use it for them. If you still have a shred of the man in you, do it.

For your information, the $17,000 raised at GenCon were given to (and accepted by) the Fisher House Foundation, that provides housing for military families.

Yours,

Jose Beltran
Voorburg
The Netherlands

Just my 2 eurocent!

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-10-31, 08:59 AM

So, that is their line on the matter.
It's still saying "We don't want any ties to a role-playing organization whatsoever. Even if it's just them giving us money." I can see how accepting money from a particular organization or event can be considered an "endorsment" of that organization. But how does such a one-sided deal dilute the charity's image unless the organization in question is unpopular?

The last line of that response is untrue. Rejecting a charitable donation does express an opinion on the source. It says, "We do not want to be associated with you in any way." And why should you be so picky in the source of simple money unless your opinion of the donor were negative?

Samurai Jill

2008-10-31, 09:10 AM

Bile and anger only breed more reactionism.
Well, I wasn't about to scream myself hoarse in front of a mirror, or anything, but I didn't see the point to sugar-coating this. I suppose you have a point.
Anyways- the official line is that they didn't refuse the money because they are bigoted against D&D, but by implication, many of their donors are. This presumably lets them continue milking their... sadly unenlightened... donors for more cash than they would presumably otherwise raise. Perhaps regrettable, but there you are...

Project_Mayhem, huh... deja-vu.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-10-31, 09:45 AM

I'm sure there's a big chunk of indoctrination in their "educational programs" and "child sponsorships".
Actually, seems they actually caught some flak a few years ago because they don't do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Children's_Fund#Issues) that kind of thing. (http://www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_042704_CCF.pdf)

KnightDisciple

2008-10-31, 09:54 AM

Actually, seems they actually caught some flak a few years ago because they don't do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Children's_Fund#Issues) that kind of thing. (http://www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_042704_CCF.pdf)

Hm. Poor folks seem to be getting it from both sides.
I mean, far as I can tell, the whole not taking the donation thing was really out of their immediate hands.
But hey, don't let that stop people sending them angry letters based on a single sentence of information. :smallamused:

Gez

2008-10-31, 10:04 AM

Actually, seems they actually caught some flak a few years ago because they don't do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Children's_Fund#Issues) that kind of thing. (http://www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_042704_CCF.pdf)

Or they don't do that enough for the taste of the even more Taliban-like organisations. (Seriously, how sane are people who claim starving people should be sent bibles rather than food?) Or they caved in to the "Wall Watchers" and changed their practices.

Lupy

2008-10-31, 10:15 AM

I... I am really disappointed in this organization to claim to be Christian and then turn down perfectly good money because a bunch of misunderstood geeks raised it by playing D&D; I just don't think that that is something real Christians should do. I don't think we should send a bunch of angry emails, but I will send them some snailmail, maybe you all should too. :smallsigh:

Pentegarn

2008-10-31, 11:05 AM

I got the exact reply that was posted earlier. Which shows me they do not even read our letters and are simply copy pasting a response. However, I thought it would be amusing to reply anyway with this

OK, then answer me this? How can you take donations from anything at all? Someone gives you money to feed children, asks nothing in return, and you decline it because you somehow extrapolate that there is some sort of endorsement in the deal? I do not buy that. As a person who considers themselves a thinker, I feel there are far too many holes in this particular argument. You can claim it was to keep from appearing to endorse a convention, but who are you really trying to convince of this? It sounds to me like you are trying to talk yourselves into this because you want to hide from a reputation you earned from judging without getting all the facts about something (in this case D&D gamers)

:smalltongue:

EDIT: Wouldn't it be hilarious if I got the exact same copy/paste response to my reply? :smallbiggrin:

Jay Jay

2008-10-31, 12:16 PM

Just wanted everyone to know that, as a member of the Christian Gamers Guild, I was very disgusted with the decision of the CCF. As a group, we have sent a fairly large number of email and snail mail messages to CCF, and all have received the canned response as well. I just hope that their actions haven't further tainted anyone's perception of true Christianity, the kind that isn't afraid to question "tradition" and hearsay, find the true answers, and steadfastly apply them to their life.

http://www.christian-gamers-guild.org/

Santiago

2008-10-31, 12:21 PM

As a Christian gamer, I'm disgusted by the CCF and this idioticness. Ironically enough, I canceled my monthly donations to them after two years just a month ago. They're going to receive a letter from a former client.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 12:38 PM

This is why I have chosen 5 charities and I stick to them.
Royal British Legion, for former servicemen/women, their families and the families of deceased servicemen/women
Ty Havan, a local children's hospice (they get all my charity shop stuff, I also shop at said charity shop)
RNLI, ie the lifeboat people.
Children in Need, BBC telethon that focuses on children's causes.
Comic Relief, another (bi-annual) BBC telethon that spends 50% of its money in Britain and 50% in Africa.
I chose them because I agree with what they do and their polices are reasonable and responsible. None of them have a bad history on money wasting (in fact the "Golden Pound Principle" means that every last penny Comic Relief raises gets spent on the people it was raised for.) and none use their work as a vehicle for views besides the obvious (the RBL does push the view that veterans do not get enough help, but does not try and push unrelated religious/political views on those it helps for example.)

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-10-31, 12:39 PM

As a group, we have sent a fairly large number of email and snail mail messages to CCF, and all have received the canned response as well.
Any indication yet whether they read further responses to the form letter or if it's as Pentegarn suggests and you just get a second copy? I've already got a first draft in my head, but I want to know if it's worth sending, as it specifically addresses points raised their form letter.

Zherog

2008-10-31, 12:45 PM

For those of you sending letters and e-mails, I would like to make a suggestion. Please take this the right way...

Spell check before you fire off the e-mail or print the letter. Maybe it's because I do freelance editing, but I'm seeing lots of typos in the e-mails quoted in this thread. It'll only take a moment to clean it up, and doing so makes you look more professional, intelligent, and level-headed.

Deathslayer7

2008-10-31, 12:55 PM

At this point in time, they already have an automatic response to any e-mail sent to them, and most likely any letter recieved, they will also send a similar response back through the mail.

Honestly, if they don't want the money, forget them. Give it to someone else. There are always others out there who need it as well.

Now I don't write this to be mean or anything, nor am I an American critic or hater or any such thing, but it was their choice not to accept it. That is how the world is, and honestly, I doubt their is much we can do besides send e-mails/letters and get back automatic responses anyway.

That is my point of view on the matter, and I hope Fisher House Foundation put that money to good use.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 12:56 PM

Spell check before you fire off the e-mail or print the letter. +1, even though (or in fact partly because) I am one of those why made an error. I have real difficulties with words as it is but I should have run it by a spell checker. I doubt they are paying huge amounts of attention to it but an avalanche of badly spelled and error laden e-mails is not going to make them realize they have offended a large number of intelligent, articulate people now is it?

Zherog

2008-10-31, 01:07 PM

Yep, yours is one of the ones where I spotted errors. :smallwink: Your last sentence is exactly why I bring up the point. Typos happen, but a flurry of misspelled and poorly written letters will just undermine the hobby in general, and act as "proof" against the claims that gamers are intelligent and thoughtful people.

AKA_Bait

2008-10-31, 01:12 PM

For all those who are taking their reply seriously, another bit to consider (http://www.csrwire.com/News/248.html). Putting their name and logo on credit cards is fine... just not gaming conventions.

I know I'm continuing with my letters.

Athaniar

2008-10-31, 01:21 PM

Seriously, I cannot for my life understand why D&D should be satanic. There are demons? Well, duh. You are supposed to kill them, right? Arcane magic? I don't see the problem. It's a fantasy game. Is fantasy evil? If you think so, then imagination should be evil, right? And therefore, free thought is evil. To all those people who have nothing better to do than to blame an innocent fantasy game for suicides and wathever: get a life. And don't let your witch-hunts prevent people in need from getting help.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 01:24 PM

And therefore, free thought is evil.

Disturbing thing is this is an article of faith (based on the fact that it was choosing the apple of knowledge and shunning god's protection that allowed evil to enter the world) among a few small Christian sects.

We Christians are a strange lot...

Lissou

2008-10-31, 01:25 PM

I sent my e-mail before that thread was created. It was along the line of them being more evil than DnD could ever be (but I stayed polite, of course).

Don't get me wrong, but the reason you've quoted seems to me to be "we didn't want to be involved with a gaming convention. Don't take that as a sign we have something against gamers, though!"

So, yeah, no change as far as I am concerned. I too think that their main reason probably isn't their own opinion of DnD but the opinion of some big donators (or the opinion they think the big donators would have) if they accepted.

I'm hoping this will make some noise, though. I want them to feel that offending their right-wing donators would have been nothing in comparison. I hope they lose many donators over that, and that other charities will get that money.

Blackfang108

2008-10-31, 01:46 PM

How does that look? I'm worried it's a little strong.

No such thing.

You must be strong to win over the narrow-minded.

Project_Mayhem

2008-10-31, 01:58 PM

1. Royal British Legion, for former servicemen/women, their families and the families of deceased servicemen/women
2. Ty Havan, a local children's hospice (they get all my charity shop stuff, I also shop at said charity shop)
3. RNLI, ie the lifeboat people.
4. Children in Need, BBC telethon that focuses on children's causes.
5. Comic Relief, another (bi-annual) BBC telethon that spends 50% of its money in Britain and 50% in Africa.

Yay for good British causes!*

What was that 'Secret Policemen's ball' the Beeb showed recently affilated with?

Yay for that too!

*Although I've never heard of the welsh sounding one:smallfrown:

Skjaldbakka

2008-10-31, 02:02 PM

Personally, I'm not sending a letter or e-mail to those people. Instead, I'm e-mailing family members and friends, and letting them know that this charity doesn't want to accept money from their dirty game infected hearts and pocketbooks.

My family being chock full of gamers.

There are a lot of gamers. It stands to reason that many of them donate money to those people. Not anymore. Not only was their action an slap in the face to gamers around the world, but an insult to the memory of the man who started it all, Gary Gygax.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 02:06 PM

*Although I've never heard of the welsh sounding one:smallfrown:

Not surprised, it is a local charity.

AKA_Bait

2008-10-31, 02:13 PM

Personally, I'm not sending a letter or e-mail to those people. Instead, I'm e-mailing family members and friends, and letting them know that this charity doesn't want to accept money from their dirty game infected hearts and pocketbooks.

Indeed. This who I have been e-mailing, or calling, about this. There are plenty of worthwhile charities out there that won't feel their image is tarnished by taking our money. Someone already mentioned World Vision (http://media.worldvision.org/sponsor-a-child-with-mysponsorship/index.html?Open&campaign=105418161&cmp=KNC-105418161). I'll also mention UMCOR (http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umcor/). I'd advise including in any letters to UCC a mention that you will be donating through other charitable organizations.

Jay Jay

2008-10-31, 02:23 PM

Any indication yet whether they read further responses to the form letter or if it's as Pentegarn suggests and you just get a second copy? I've already got a first draft in my head, but I want to know if it's worth sending, as it specifically addresses points raised their form letter.

As far as I've heard, no one has received a response other than the canned form letter/email. Not saying they haven't, but that's what I've heard to this point in time. Very disappointing.

Atreyu the Masked LLama

2008-10-31, 02:42 PM

Hmmmm.... but if accepting the 17,000 dollar donation from Gen-Con would have caused someone who donated more than 17,000 dollars from donating, then wouldn't that be in the worst interests of the children? The charity would have less money overall, and they wouldn't have as much money to spend on children in need?

powerdemon

2008-10-31, 02:52 PM

Good letter, I sent one as well that said just about the exact same thing. I would post it but I don't know how to use the spoiler tags.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 02:59 PM

Good letter, I sent one as well that said just about the exact same thing. I would post it but I don't know how to use the spoiler tags.

Do this but use [] not {} {spoiler}The text that is to go in the box {/spoiler}

CabbageTheif

2008-10-31, 03:15 PM

i sent mine. by the way, hi to everyone who i havent seen in ages (masked llama, mostly)

they sent me the same generic response they sent you, evildmmk3. i dont think they are reading these anymore, simply sending out the same 'nice' reply. so, let us analyze that reply.

Christian Children’s Fund made the decision to decline the gift from Gen Con, LLC as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.

sentence 1, translation: we did not want the money because it made it seem like we supported the people who gave us the money.

sentence 2, translation: like other groups, we choose who we want based upon what we value. (loosley translating integrity to mean something that, in your eyes, makes you look like something other people would trust).

sentence 3, translation: we cannot say we were a part of something when we were not there.

sentence 4, translation: this does not mean we don't like you or your game.

while they had the decency to say at the end that the dont hate us, there is still some... discrepancy is the word i am looking for, i believe. all letters should now be asking "what about gencon would lower your integrity?" to which the answer will probably be "because we were not supporting gencon at all" which should be replied in turn with "are you or representatives involved with every group that gives you money?" maybe the answer to that will be yes. ::shrug:: or maybe this wont change a thing. but take my translation and have fun.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-10-31, 03:27 PM

powerdemon

2008-10-31, 03:33 PM

(thanks evil)

I was informed through an online gaming news website that a recent $1700+ donation was declined due to the fact that some of the money came from selling Dungeons and Dragons books at GenCon during a fund raiser in memory of the late Gary Gygax. I trust this site as reputable and they urged their readers to email you and convey their disapproval. I myself am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player and I am aware of the Stigma that it is devil worship. I have been playing the game for more than five years and I assure you, my fellow players and myself are all very normal people. Three of my fellow players attend church regularly and one of them is a Pastors son. I am more upset for the children that will go without this money than the actual refusal. I believe that it was a silly move to turn down the donation to the detriment of these kids. I wish to convey my disapproval and earnest hope that future attempts at donation will not meet with the same answer.

Thank you for your time in reading this email and I wish you great success in the future in bringing good fortune to the needy children of the world.

~Sincerely, (my name)

The Giant

2008-10-31, 03:50 PM

Dear Mr. Foweraker,

Christian Children’s Fund made the decision to decline the gift from Gen Con, LLC as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.

Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.

Charities have been accepting the donations of the GenCon charity auction since the second such show in 1969, before D&D was even invented. Never once has the money been refused by any charity, to my knowledge. Case in point, as mentioned, Fisher House didn't see the same legal issues with accepting the money or lending their name, nor did last year's recipient, Cristel House (http://www.christelhouse.org/). The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.

(Also, I'm sticky-ing this, that's how mad I am.)

AKA_Bait

2008-10-31, 03:55 PM

The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.

Quite true and the fact that CCF isn't some sort of weird exception this general practice is evident by their working with Capital One on a percent donation credit card bearing their logo. I don't suppose they had any hand in deciding who would be approved for the card or what the APR would be, do you?

I think they might have gotten to help pick the design schemes available on the faces of the cards though. Maybe if Gen Con had offered to let them help decorate they would have taken the donation. Sure. :smallfurious:

powerdemon

2008-10-31, 04:08 PM

Quite true and the fact that CCF isn't some sort of weird exception this general practice is evident by their working with Capital One on a percent donation credit card bearing their logo. I don't suppose they had any hand in deciding who would be approved for the card or what the APR would be, do you?

I think they might have gotten to help pick the design schemes available on the faces of the cards though. Maybe if Gen Con had offered to let them help decorate they would have taken the donation. Sure. :smallfurious:

Who's to say what they buy with that card too? A person with that card could very well be buying DnD books. The card leaves it a lot more open ended than the straight money donation from DnD books. Why deny donations from DnD stuff and accept donations from a source that you have no idea where it came from?

pendell

2008-10-31, 04:47 PM

Add to that the small fact that credit cards are what traditional morality might call 'Usury'. As a rule, in the modern age when you give someone a credit card, you're encouraging them to put themselves under a load of debt at the highest interest rates legally available for purely consumer purchase.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Lupy

2008-10-31, 04:55 PM

Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.

Charities have been accepting the donations of the GenCon charity auction since the second such show in 1969, before D&D was even invented. Never once has the money been refused by any charity, to my knowledge. Case in point, as mentioned, Fisher House didn't see the same legal issues with accepting the money or lending their name, nor did last year's recipient, Cristel House (http://www.christelhouse.org/). The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.

(Also, I'm sticky-ing this, that's how mad I am.)

We have aroused the sleeping Giant! ( :smallbiggrin: )

powerdemon

2008-10-31, 05:04 PM

satsunada

2008-10-31, 05:08 PM

Not sure if this is mentioned elsewhere but i'm new and this really ticked me off.

Any lawyers want to verify for me what section 501(c)(3) of the IRS tax code is referring to on its website when it says:

"A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization"

Link for those curious: http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=123297,00.html

Am I in understanding that the Christian Children's Fund violated their tax exemption by deeming the receipt of the fully and honestly given money as ethically questionable?

Also, I visited the Better Business Bureau and noted that under #18 of their Standards for Charity Accountability that it states:

"b.providing a clear, prominent and easily accessible privacy policy on any of its websites that tells visitors (i) what information, if any, is being collected about them by the charity and how this information will be used, (ii) how to contact the charity to review personal information collected and request corrections, (iii) how to inform the charity (e.g., a check off box) that the visitor does not wish his/her personal information to be shared outside the organization, and (iv) what security measures the charity has in place to protect personal information"

Did they actually issue a statement that it was refused on the grounds of what GENcon represented? If so, did they not collect information on the effort unethically and misuse information given? Can we get that revoked too?

EDIT: I just noted that canned response called it a "gaming convention" meaning they researched it without telling GENcon organizers. Even that little note might be enough.

They violated their mission statement by not accepting the money, there's nothing a hate more than a charity that thinks it's "too good" for your effort.

My apologies for the long post, i'm just pissed. :smallfurious:

Raiser Blade

2008-10-31, 05:09 PM

:smallsigh:

Samurai Jill

2008-10-31, 05:52 PM

Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.
Ohhh, yeah- I missed the 'no involvement' line. ...Well, in that case, they're also being dishonest.

But, uh... I still reckon the practical ramifications of being seen to associate with D&D may be more of a consideration for them. I mean, given they took flak for not pushing a religious agenda during their work, combined with the frightening number of people who take Jack Chick remotely seriously, I can sorta understand the bind they're in: charities deal in many thousands, even millions of dollars each year- is it worth the risk of alienating your strongest donor base, even temporarily, over the sum of $17K?
That said, I can also completely understand being pissed about it, and alienating the gamer demographic is also a measurable consequence of their actions- so... flame away, I guess.

"A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests... ...A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization"
I'm no lawyer, but I don't see how 'the christian fringe' would count as a 'private interest' by this definition. I also don't see how anyone at the organisation could personally profit from turning down money. There's definitely something shady going on here, but you may be reaching a wee bit.

Did they actually issue a statement that it was refused on the grounds of what GENcon represented? If so, did they not collect information on the effort unethically and misuse information given? Can we get that revoked too?
Uh... it's hardly a personal secret that GenCon is associated with D&D.

CabbageTheif

2008-10-31, 06:11 PM

i dont think this organization truly realized what it has gotten itself into. for fun and to show a friend, i googled the story and almost every major gaming forum has not just the story, but The Giants exact article copypasta'd into it. and you can bet your britches that the internet superheroes will have sent hundreds of letters about it by now.

also, here is something i found that is interesting.... a video on youtube added in august in which the speech given by the big G.G.'s son talked about the charity change. why did it only come out of the dark now? why hadn't we heard of it until today?

link related, its the auction of the giant 20d that was auctioned at gencon, and includes the speech that gary's son gave about the other charity that money went to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLJ4xnAXBdc&feature=related

pendell

2008-10-31, 06:12 PM

Am I in understanding that the Christian Children's Fund violated their tax exemption by deeming the receipt of the fully and honestly given money as ethically questionable?

There is no law that says any organization has to take your money, for any reason or for no reason. Their loss.

Don't sweat it. Pray for them, if you're of the mind. Write them a nasty gram. And find a similar charity (World Vision comes to mind) that doesn't have the same hangup.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Haruki-kun

2008-10-31, 06:34 PM

I want to e-mail them SO MUCH.

But I just can't do with this fancy language in English. :smallfrown:
I don't know what happened to me, I used to be able to perfectly fine.....<.<

Bruendor_Cavescout

2008-10-31, 06:50 PM

I understand the righteous fury everyone's feeling, but, especially after the reply EvilDM posted, I wonder if their stance on the $17k stemmed from some lawyer employed by the CCF. He might have looked at the standard contract GenCon Ltd. drew up, and some bit of verbiage may have looked to him as though CCF was in some way sponsoring GenCon. (Complete rubbish, of course, but hear me out.)

As satsunada pointed out, CCF is a 501(c)(3) organization; this means it gets federal tax exemption, and must follow certain rules in order to keep this exemption. Not too surprisingly, organizations like this tend to be very careful not to violate those rules. It's possible that that could be the reason; it's possible they had a knee-jerk reaction when the words "Dungeons" and "Dragons" got connected by an ampersand; it's possible there's other reasons for this that I'm not aware of; it's possible that it's all of these to some degree.

The biggest loser in all of this? EGG wasn't able to donate $17k to his favorite charity through the sale of his creations. With luck, the ghost of Gygax will haunt CCF's halls until they not only issue an apology, but the board members all make characters and are forced to play through "Tomb of Horrors" until they all make it out alive.

CabbageTheif

2008-10-31, 07:01 PM

With luck, the ghost of Gygax will haunt CCF's halls until they not only issue an apology, but the board members all make characters and are forced to play through "Tomb of Horrors" until they all make it out alive.

you, sir, are a cruel and sadistic bastard. i love you.

The Giant

2008-10-31, 07:10 PM

That said, I can also completely understand being pissed about it, and alienating the gamer demographic is also a measurable consequence of their actions- so... flame away, I guess.

Well, exactly. They made a calculated decision that any lost donations and bad press from this move would be outweighed by the support of their regular donors. And maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to have their cake and eat it too by NOT publicly objecting.

UncleWolf

2008-10-31, 07:31 PM

I want to e-mail them SO MUCH.

But I just can't do with this fancy language in English. :smallfrown:
I don't know what happened to me, I used to be able to perfectly fine.....<.<

If you want, type out your letter and then pm it to me so I can tweak it for you. I'll send it right back with the corrections, so you can personally send it.

AslanCross

2008-10-31, 07:40 PM

I also sent them an email. I'm an Evangelical Christian myself, and I was shocked to see this happen. I won't be posting my letter here due to its Scripture-quotes, but suffice to say I've sent in my two coppers as well.

This is also going to find its way onto my blog.

Phillip0614

2008-10-31, 07:43 PM

I find this action to be extremely unfortunate and condemn it strongly, and did as much in the email I just sent to them.

My wife and I are both avid gamers, and even more avid Christians, and we use these games not only for fun and recreation but also as a Christian outreach to our non-Christian friends, and this really disturbs us both.

Zherog

2008-10-31, 07:49 PM

for fun and to show a friend, i googled the story and almost every major gaming forum has not just the story, but The Giants exact article copypasta'd into it.

I'm one of those. I linked to Rich's news post, and attributed the quote to him.

Copacetic

2008-10-31, 07:57 PM

SCRUBBED.

"Hurr Hurr, we don't want be affiliate with Gamers"

Read as:

"Hurr Hurr, we don't want be affiliated with gamers cause they play D&D."

Yeah, I sent in my 2 cp.

The Voice of Mod: Let's try to avoid any threats of violence, no mater how hyperbolic.

Tirian

2008-10-31, 08:55 PM

I'm not quite sure how one can send throat-punches through the internet, but I will find a way. These people certainly deserve it.

Cool off. I understand that Rich is upset, but hopefully that doesn't give you or anyone else the license to threaten violence against people based on their religious or political views. I haven't got much respect for the charity, but they are under the misapprehension that fantasy gamers are nothing but virtual violence freaks. How about we all step up to the plate and prove that they're wrong.

The charity in question didn't set fire to the money, it is doing good works for a different organization as we speak. Be at peace.

Haruki-kun

2008-10-31, 09:05 PM

If you want, type out your letter and then pm it to me so I can tweak it for you. I'll send it right back with the corrections, so you can personally send it.

Thanks! I'll write it if I get the chance! :smallsmile:

*hopes to get the chance*

AKA_Bait

2008-10-31, 09:17 PM

Cool off. I understand that Rich is upset, but hopefully that doesn't give you or anyone else the license to threaten violence against people based on their religious or political views.

I suspect that was hyperbole. No one is actually planning on punching them. :smallsmile:

How about we all step up to the plate and prove that they're wrong.

Indeed. The issue is exactly that many groups, exemplified by CCF here, do seem to have a perception of gamers as "virtual violence freaks" among other things. This isn't the first recent incident of gamers getting subjected to that or the other negative and unjustified stereotypes (lives in their mom's basement, worships satan, etc.) recently and publically. Others would have come up here except for that doing so would violate, or come close to violating, the no politics forum rules. An uproar about these kinds of things is long in coming and advocacy by gamers that institutions, programs, or people that hold these views shouldn't be patronized and supported (particularly when there are other equally worthwhile options, many of which were mentioned on this thread) by the gaming community. Rich has a right to be angry. Anyone who games or has friends or family who game have a right to be angry. That this kind of ignorance is, in this case, also keeping a group with a worthwile mission, helping those in need, from doing so should also make us sad. Stepping up to the plate means recognizing the situation for what it is and calling people on it as publically as possible.

Thank you Giant for posting it and bringing it to as wide attention. Thank you everyone else for writing letters and informing others.

Lord Seth

2008-10-31, 09:26 PM

First off, I'm not sure why there's any reason to go so gung-ho on the letter writing. Not getting the $17,000 is a perfectly fine consequence for passing it up, and I don't think that sending letter after letter is going to change anything. Besides, the money went to another charity anyway, so it's not like it went to waste.

As far as I've heard, no one has received a response other than the canned form letter/email. Not saying they haven't, but that's what I've heard to this point in time. Very disappointing.How so? If I was a charity or organization and did something, and got a lot of angry e-mails about it, I wouldn't bother responding to each one individually and would just make one form e-mail and send it in response. I don't see anything wrong about it being a form e-mail. Feel free to complain about what the form e-mail says or what they do, but making a form e-mail is what I think would be smart to do in this case.

Also, let's not demonize the entire charity for what was probably a decision made by just a few people at the upper levels of it, especially given that it was Gary Gygax's favorite charity. I see a lot of people complaining at the charity. I don't think we should be laying the blame at the entire thing, when it's likely that only a few people in it actually made the decision.

Grynning

2008-10-31, 09:48 PM

I sent the following. This is just disappointing. I try to believe in humanity, I really do...but they do tend to let me down sometimes.

Greetings,

I will keep this brief, as I am sure you are inundated with letters of this kind (at least I hope that you are). This writing is to inform you that I am sorely disappointed with the Christian Children's Fund's refusal to act as a sponsored charity for GenCon. If those who made this decision truly wished to express Christian values, they would have accepted this donation graciously, so that this money could be used to aid those in need. Given the state of the world today, I am deeply saddened that people would allow a very minor ideological quibble with a GAME to get in the way of such a virtue as charity. Whoever receives this letter should seriously evaluate their priorities and consider the consequences of such close-minded thinking.

I myself have spent most of my life involved with the gaming industry, and it offends me deeply that you would turn us aside when we attempt to reach out with a helping hand. Until your organization reverses its attitude towards gamers, you can expect no help from myself or those whom I have influence over. I will encourage my friends and family to donate to charities with a more diverse outlook, because I do believe strongly in helping others whenever possible. I would also advise that gamers, Christian and otherwise, are willing to forgive, because many of us share a vision of a better world. However, an apology to our community, and an assurance that the backwards attitude towards our hobby will be reconsidered, would go a long way towards mending the relationship between your charity and a large group of people who only want to help their fellow human beings.

Regards,

*Me*
Gamer, Unitarian, and potential donor.

The Giant

2008-10-31, 09:49 PM

Not getting the $17,000 is a perfectly fine consequence for passing it up,

If this was a for-profit business, you would be correct. However, the people who made this decision did not lose $17,000 for themselves, they lost it for the children they are trying to help. They still brought home the same salary from CCF this year, either way. That is why it bothers me. And that is why, while I support people letting them know how they feel, my primary goal in posting this information was to let people know that there are charities out there that DON'T feel this way, and that we should support them instead.

The important issue here is whether or not the children in need are getting the best possible help. CCF has proven, by its actions, that they are willing to put their personal considerations--whatever philosophical basis they have for them--ahead of what is best for starving children. Therefore, it is our duty, as concerned donors, to make our donations through organizations that aren't likely to take the same path.

Also, note that the Fisher House, while a worthy cause, does not help children in impoverished areas of the world; they build places for families to stay near military hospitals in the USA (sort of like the Ronald McDonald house for veterans). A good cause, certainly, but definitely not the same cause, and I wanted people who believed in the cause of fighting child poverty to know that yes, there are charities that will gladly accept your befouled gamer-tainted money.

The Voice of Mod: Also, let's be careful not to bring their religion into this. There are plenty of secular reasons why this is a stupid thoughtless blunder on their part without calling their religion into question.

Plus, no threats of violence. Consider the thread warned.

AmberVael

2008-10-31, 10:00 PM

...there are charities that will gladly accept your befouled gamer-tainted money.

*LE GASP*

They have him too! :smalleek:
No gamer is safe! Run for your lives!

:smalltongue:

More seriously, I wrote up this letter:

To those concerned,

It has recently come to my attention that your charity turned down over a $17,000 donation raised by the auction at GenCon, because it was associated with the "Dungeons and Dragons" game.

I am utterly appalled at this.
This is money willingly raised and offered up for the good of many, to aid the lives of the less fortunate, and it was refused because it was associated with a game?

That's just pathetic.
Anyone willing to actually look at the facts rather than cling to mistaken beliefs bred by fear, misunderstanding, and sheer stupidity will find that "Dungeons and Dragons" is no more harmful than (and is indeed quite comparable to) improvisational acting while reading excel spreadsheets.

As a participant of GenCon, a player of Dungeons and Dragons, and someone raised on the very morals that caused your charity to reject this gift of goodwill, I am insulted by the implication that my money- no- my very SOUL is tainted by a game that simply encourages creativity.

It is my deep hope that you will come to repent your uninformed and pharisaic actions, and will understand that goodwill is in fact goodwill, no matter the source- and that indeed, the source was not bad.

Offended and Insulted
-Vael

I wish I had been a little more restrained, but at the time I was writing it I was trying not to see red. >.>
Oh, and my real name was replaced with my user name. I didn't actually sign it as Vael.
I should have though. :smallwink:

BRC

2008-10-31, 10:06 PM

The message this decision says is "We care more about our Ill-informed opinions concerning a popular hobby than about our stated mission of helping children." Nobody is asking them to play the game, or support it, or even say anything about it.
Their story about "We are selective about what we endorse" is sheer bull. An Endorsement or a Sponsership is when one person or organization lends support to another, in this case they are not Endorsing or Sponsering Gencon, Gencon is lending publicity and financial assistance to them. It's not even a "You give me a dollar today and I'll give you five bucks next week" thing, its' "Here, Take five bucks, please."

BizzaroStormy

2008-10-31, 10:20 PM

Son of a.....ARGH!!!

See this is why rel***** is such a bad thing for the world. Sure it gives people motivation and/or hope but it also(in to many cases) results in stuff like war, fear, depriving children of halloween, and deprving them of food in the aforementioned charity rejection.

There are things I really want to say but it would cause a whirlwind of infractions to swarm my profile, so i wont say them.

I will say this though...
FAIL

Now that I've gone off my cosine, it really does sicken me to think that people would be so ignorant like this.

Mr.Bookworm

2008-10-31, 10:23 PM

They should be ashamed of themselves.

For ****'s sake. They won't accept seventeen thousand freaking dollars because of bigoted, downright wrong conceptions.

This money would go to help people who actually need it, and it's an awful lot of money.

They are letting down everything a charity should stand for by doing this.

*goes off to write angry letter*

thubby

2008-10-31, 10:29 PM

this fails so hard, we need a new word to describe it.

mikeejimbo

2008-10-31, 10:38 PM

You know, in their defense, if they had accepted it they may have had plenty of people complaining to them anyway, but for the opposite reason. They can't win here, you know.

Mr.Bookworm

2008-10-31, 10:42 PM

You know, in their defense, if they had accepted it they may have had plenty of people complaining to them anyway, but for the opposite reason. They can't win here, you know.

Wait, what?

Who cares about people complaining to them? They would've A) Had the moral high ground, and B) Just, I dunno, received 17,000 dollars to put to good causes.

As a Christian, a D&D player, and a human being, I am disgusted.

Rolaran

2008-10-31, 10:43 PM

Okay, first of all, I'm a Christian; in fact, currently studying to become a Lutheran minister. I am also an avid D&D gamer, having found no grounds whatsoever for linking D&D to anything immoral or spiritually unhealthy. I believe that religion, when properly used, is a positive influence that can uplift and inspire humanity; I also believe that gaming, when properly used, enriches the human experience socially and mentally. And I am appalled at the actions of this charity.

However, I ask people not to be too quick to blame the charity itself. As has been said before, it is entirely possible that they were under pressure not to accept our "tainted evil blood money". As surprising as this may be, there are still folks who don't know anything about D&D beyond what they heard from sensationalists in the 80s (notably, my parents were in this group until I started playing!) and I would not blame a charity for not wanting to scare off such people based on a misunderstanding. However, I feel it is their responsibility to set the record straight. Currently I can find no mention of this incident on their website; it seems they are trying to pretend it didn't happen. I would urge them (and urge you to urge them) to explain themselves, in public. If they are honest and loving people (as I would hope they are!) this would be an opportunity to both apologize to gamers worldwide and maybe cast a low-level "Dispel Ignorance" on some well-meaning but misguided people.

Or perhaps they will simply post the same half-hearted, half-baked mea culpa form letter that the people here have been receiving. In which case, they receive not one thin dime from myself, or anyone else I know, for a very long time.

Lord Seth

2008-10-31, 10:45 PM

Fri

2008-10-31, 10:47 PM

Anyway, what's the plan here? Kept swamping them with email until they give into peer pressure and shame or what?

Cause, it seems that they're not even reading the emails anymore. They're only giving automatic replies.

mikeejimbo

2008-10-31, 10:50 PM

Wait, what?

Who cares about people complaining to them? They would've A) Had the moral high ground, and B) Just, I dunno, received 17,000 dollars to put to good causes.

As a Christian, a D&D player, and a human being, I am disgusted.

But I mean, other Christians who do find D&D to be evil would stop donating their money. Or other people who do think that it would be wrong for them to be 'endorsing' GenCon. I'm just saying that they have to consider how it would look to everyone else, as well.

Copacetic

2008-10-31, 10:51 PM

Cool off. I understand that Rich is upset, but hopefully that doesn't give you or anyone else the license to threaten violence against people based on their religious or political views. I haven't got much respect for the charity, but they are under the misapprehension that fantasy gamers are nothing but virtual violence freaks. How about we all step up to the plate and prove that they're wrong.

The charity in question didn't set fire to the money, it is doing good works for a different organization as we speak. Be at peace.

H-H-H-H-Hyperbole.

KnightDisciple

2008-10-31, 10:58 PM

Also, at this point, don't count on getting any replies. It's the weekend, folks. Wait until Monday, see if we get an official announcement or something. Like Lord Seth said, write your letter, wait a bit, and go back and read it.
And like others have said, this may not have been knee-jerk on their part; there may be issues with other larger potential donors. Still sad, but at some point, you have to look at hard numbers.

Smoke_Rulz

2008-10-31, 11:46 PM

BizzaroStormy

2008-11-01, 12:11 AM

I've cooled down a bit now and still think that a march with guy faulks (sp?) masks and torches is just shy of being acceptable. I'm particularly offended since I put my best d20 in the giant die, which IIRC, was like the centerpiece of the auction.

Lord Seth

2008-11-01, 12:22 AM

I sent my letter last night. I think I caught the news post when it was relatively new, so this forum post here wasn't around.

I won't re-paste my letter here, because it's harsh & impolite. I didn't cuss them out or anything like that, I just wished ill upon their organization as a whole. You guys probably don't wish to see something like that. Felt pretty good, though. :)See, and that's exactly what I said is the wrong thing to do. Don't blame the entire charity for a decision that was probably made by just a few higher-ups. I doubt the people that are actually working in the field (who should be applauded for their work) had anything to do with the decision.

Also, of course, wishing ill on someone's organization is hardly the way to get them to take your complaint seriously.

Delta Nu Delta

2008-11-01, 12:40 AM

For all the bickering and hyperbole going on we can probably all agree that A) this is ridiculous and B) we should speak up and let the charity know they're making a tremendous error. While we cannot fix it this time around, hopefully it will help in the future.

Anyway, mah lettah!

Hello CCF,

I've recently come across a news story alleging that your charity turned down an incredibly generous donation in light of the fact that it was given by people who play dungeons and dragons.

How absurd.

I'm both amazed and distraught that this level of callousness and ignorance exists in a group dedicated to helping children. Nothing about dungeons and dragons is in anyway harmful. I'm assuming you're basing your rejection off of rumors that are almost two and half decades old. Unfortunately, the only ones who will suffer for this disturbing oversight are the children you, and the people whom attempted to donate to you, aim to help.

I find solace in the fact that the money has found a home with another, and dare I say more deserving, charity. While vetting your donations is a laudable goal, you've descended a laughable level.

Sincerely,

SHAZAM!

Dacia Brabant

2008-11-01, 01:40 AM

A while back a charity for abused children/families that I did extensive reporting about turned down sizeable gifts from licensed casino gaming and adult beverage establishments, on the grounds that they didn't wish to appear to condone practices that went against their mission statement (they're anti-gambling and alcohol, believing these things cause many of the problems their organization tries to fix). Some of the people who worked there weren't happy about it and a few even quit, but the directors thought taking the money that may have been made at the expense of the people they're trying to help would in effect be affirming bad behavior.

Sure, money is money but when you start getting into things like morality, for better or worse that's when lines start getting drawn in the sand. If the CCF folks really think GenCon, WotC, etc. are purveyors of things that their belief system rejects--or think that their major donors think that--then it's not surprising they would turn down money that was made off of selling products they object to. (And I'm sorry but I don't think for a minute that any secular reasons they might come up with for this are anything more than a dodge.)

I want to make sure you all understand that I do NOT agree with them, nor am I saying that D&D or other fantasy RPGs are "wicked" (I'm an atheist and a gamer) are in any way comparable to controlled substances or gambling--or for that matter any form of hate speech (I've read of many instances where racist, anti-semitic and other hateful organizations had their charitable donations rejected) or any illegal activity that might cause someone to turn down money because of its source.

But if they really, truly think that we're all a bunch of horrible sinners who are going to hell because our characters use magic or worship pagan gods, why would anyone expect them to accept money from the sales of "satanic" items?

Smoke_Rulz

2008-11-01, 03:39 AM

See, and that's exactly what I said is the wrong thing to do. Don't blame the entire charity for a decision that was probably made by just a few higher-ups. I doubt the people that are actually working in the field (who should be applauded for their work) had anything to do with the decision.

Also, of course, wishing ill on someone's organization is hardly the way to get them to take your complaint seriously.

I don't expect them to take it seriously. Nor any of our complaints seriously, really. After all, we're the evil tainted ones with our dirty D&D money.

And I will indeed wish ill will on their entire organization. I don't trust a single person who works for it, let alone the higher-ups. If you don't like it, that's really just too bad.

InaVegt

2008-11-01, 04:07 AM

I sent an e-mail as well.

Disappointed

Dear CCF,

As a firm believer in the message of Christ, the message to love your
neighbours, the message to help those in need, I am severely
disappointed that you decided not to accept the money that was to be
given to you in respect of E. Gary Gygax.

While I understand that some people believe Dungeons and Dragons is a
work of Satan, this is not true, and by not accepting this money, you
have stated, no matter how implicitly, that you consider Dungeons and
Dragons to be evil. Through this, you have alienated many supporters
and potential supporters.

In addition, you have disappointed the children, for the money
gathered was a substantial sum, which now is not used to help the
children who need it so much.

While I can understand that you cannot reverse this decision, I
believe I speak for all gamers when I say that we'd like more
explanation than this blurb you've given us.

God bless,

<name>

Mr the Geoff

2008-11-01, 04:29 AM

I chose to point out exactly which parts of the bible were in direct contradiction to their actions in this matter and leave it at that. If you want to point out how wrong someone is, quoting their own teachings is always a good place to start. I don't know whether the email will even be read, but someone at that charity must at least be looking at the server load on their email server and wondering what the heck is going on.

I was astonished to hear that your charity has refused a substantial donation of funds raised at the GENCON 2008 comic convention, solely due to the fact that it was linked with the popular fictional roleplaying game, Dungeons and Dragons.

I personally see no conflict between my faith and a hobby in which people PRETEND to be heroes in a FICTIONAL non-christion setting. As an Anglican christian living in a multi-cultural society I believe in religious tolerance and hold that anybody's religious views are valid, provided they do not try to force them on other people.

You need to ask yourself what would Jesus do in your position? Would Jesus have refused charity from a Roman benefactor simply because his polytheistic belief system differed from the word of God? Of course not!. In fact one of His most famous parables is the tale of the Good Samaritan, in which a man in need receives aid from a stranger who does not share his religion.

We could instead look to the tale of the prodigal son, where just because someone has strayed from God's teachings does not mean that they should not be welcomed with open arms shoudl they choose to make amends.

The crux of the matter is this. Discriminating against anyone on the grounds of their religion is wrong. Discriminating against someone on the basis of their hobby is plain ridiculous. I implore you to reconsider your blatant snub to the upstanding members of the community that were trying to help your cause, in memory of a man who was not only one of your benefactors, but also instrumental in creating Dungeons and Dragons.

Kris Strife

2008-11-01, 04:59 AM

this fails so hard, we need a new word to describe it.

How about CCFails?

On a more serious note, at current, I cant send emails long enough (I use a PSP for interwub access), and have the hand writing of a mentally deficiant, blind spider monkey, I cant send a letter. I can how ever, inform others. As many as I can. And I intend to do so.

thubby

2008-11-01, 05:20 AM

How about CCFails?

afraid i missed the reference :smallconfused:

KnightDisciple

2008-11-01, 05:21 AM

afraid i missed the reference :smallconfused:

That would, apparently, be the new word for "this level of fail". It's a fusion of CCF and Fail.
:smallsigh:

Kris Strife

2008-11-01, 05:25 AM

afraid i missed the reference :smallconfused:

in emails, cc when you need to send the message to a large group? also been awake for 22 hours.

Talic

2008-11-01, 05:45 AM

While I can appreciate that the CCF doesn't want that association to be made, and doesn't want to be associated with an organization...

Well, they are not supporting the organization. The Organization in question is attempting to support the cause they profess, and trusting them to do it. And they are turning that aside. They are refusing to act in the interests of their cause, and instead are allowing idealogical views interfere in the accomplishment of their mission. That it's ok to let a few hundred children starve to keep their good name from being tarnished...

Well, let the people they are unable to help be the tarnish on that name. Let children who starve be the blemish on that organization. I fully intend to write a letter, when I return home.

paddyfool

2008-11-01, 05:49 AM

So, it seems to me like the CCF made a bad, stupid decision, and have lost out. Fair enough.

On a brighter note, see my sig for another charity that would be very happy and proud to take your money, and which would be directly helping children in poor countries by protecting them from a disease with an annual mortality of 0.9 million people (most of them children) and a caseload of 247 million cases at the last estimate (http://www.rbm.who.int/wmr2005/html/1-2.htm), with hefty consequences for child health, growth, and education.

The Giant

2008-11-01, 06:18 AM

A while back a charity for abused children/families that I did extensive reporting about turned down sizeable gifts from licensed casino gaming and adult beverage establishments, on the grounds that they didn't wish to appear to condone practices that went against their mission statement (they're anti-gambling and alcohol, believing these things cause many of the problems their organization tries to fix).

The primary difference between the situation you describe and this situation right here is that those licensed casinos actually DID promote gambling and drinking. They wouldn't even have denied it; it was their stated business. This rejection now is almost certainly on grounds of what is essentially NOT true - that D&D is satanic or what have you. The fact that they believe such to be true is not really a valid defense; we who play such games know it to not be, and have a right to let them know our displeasure. Change only comes through enough people making their voices known.

Anyway, what's the plan here? Kept swamping them with email until they give into peer pressure and shame or what?

The only plan I see here is to simply withdraw support and funnel it to other charities. I realize that's hard to do for anyone not financially capable of supporting in the first place, but the fact is, all the angry emails in the world are unlikely to produce results other than catharsis for the writer. Well, it might get whoever made this decision fired, but that's probably about it. The money has already been donated elsewhere, so the horse has left the barn.

The important point is that we, as gamers, don't allow this sort of smear against us to interfere with our plans to help the needy in the future. We just do it through another organization.

St.Sinner

2008-11-01, 06:36 AM

Huh. I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I can't really. I had a similar experience with another organisation of religious nutters at a fundraising event, only that time the game in question was Magic the Gathering. If you're already wondering how DnD could possibly be perceived as satanic, just try and work out how Magic the Gathering is supposed to be linked to "demon-worship" and "death culture", won't you.

All the letter-writing in the world didn't persuade that group to change their position, and I quite doubt that it'll convince this one. Nevertheless, they deserve every last complaint they are going to get, so I shall be writing a letter to the Crazy Christian Fundies following this, fully expecting to get the same, pathetic stock reply in response.

Evil DM Mark3

2008-11-01, 06:38 AM

In order to loose some of my head of steam I went and talked with my University Chaplin about this. I feel it helped. He was somewhat supprised as to the behaviour of a chairty he is aware of on a professional level (and is going to ask the other chaplins to re-consider said charity's priorities in light of this). As a Christian the correct responce is to forgive and to pray that they will understand the folly of what they have done. As a gamer I feel the correct responce is to move on. There are plenty of gamer freindly charites out there and at the end of the day what they choose to/not to take as donations is their choice. If they do, as I susupect, count a large number of the fundemental "7 days and a snake, King James Bible pure" brigade that has caused us greif in the past as donators then sadly this is the sensible choice for them. And for us, tthe sensible choice is to investiage who we donate to.

SPoD

2008-11-01, 06:42 AM

And for us, tthe sensible choice is to investiage who we donate to.

Rich recommended one called Plan USA in his News post; it sounds like he sponsors a child through them. Or am I reading too much into that?

Revlid

2008-11-01, 06:54 AM

Dear Sirs,

I send this email to congratulate you on your wise decision regarding a recent attempted donation of over $17, 000 to your charity. I understand you refused this money, on the basis that it had been partly raised through actions related to Dungeons & Dragons. Although $17, 000 is not an inconsiderable sum, I feel the need to reassure you that your decision was the right one - as I am sure the starving children the money was meant for will agree.

Some of the so-called "gamers" who helped raise that money will likely protest, pointing out that this decision illustrates the moral ineptitude that seems to riddle the entirety of religion these days. You must not bow to this pressure! These people are, as we all know (courtesy of Jack Chick) devil worshipers and members of suicide cults. I allowed my teenaged son to pretend to be an elf with his for just a few hours, and when he returned he informed me that he had sold his soul to Satan. Just like heavy metal music, video games of any kind, and comic books, Dungeons & Dragons is a cancer of our society, and I am glad to see that this charity, at least, is upholding the moral standards of America.

The children who need that money? They'll understand. The moment elves got involved, that donation became dirtier than mob-money. The money was tainted with the stink of the devil, and I for one am glad you resisted the temptation to help others with it. Was it not Jesus who said "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."?

I understand another charity has since accepted the money with the goal of 'helping people' - a nauseating display of capitulation. Stay away from nerd-money, sirs. Our morals are just too precious to compromise by setting aside ridiculous prejudices in order to help people.

Yours respectfully,
Charles Raspin

Self-righteous jackasses.

Lissou

2008-11-01, 07:06 AM

You know everyone, I would personally suggest that before you send letters, you wait after you write them. Preferably a day, but at least an hour. Then look back at the letter and change it as necessary before sending it in. Otherwise you're likely to send extremely angry letters that will probably just be dismissed outright. This kind of "cooling off" period is a good thing for such letter-writing.

Well, I disagree with you. Polite or not, the letters won't change anything. Sending one had only a single purpose as far as I am concerned: making me feel better. If they get thousands, it might also have the purpose of making them realise many people do care about it. But only sheer numbers will do that, not the strength of our arguments.

What we can do is make sure as many people as possible know about it. personnally, I don't really donate to begin with considering both my husband and myself are unemployed, but should I find a nice-paying job that allows me to donate, I'll know to avoid CCF. If we can tell as many people as we can about it, it doesn't matter if they send an e-mail or not. What matters is that they will know to avoid this charity if they're feeling as strongly as we do here.

Ultimately, what really matters is the people helped by the charity, in this case children. Fortunately, other charities help children. If they were the only one, many things would be different. For one thing, it would be important to keep donating to them so the kids can be helped. it could also be important to make them realise their mistake, since any money they refuse could never be used to help children.
But that's fortunately not the case. there are other good charities. So let's just spread the word about them to anyone we know who might be looking for a new place to put their money to good use.

Firestorm65

2008-11-01, 07:20 AM

Edit: I am truly sorry that the gaming community was unable to tribute Gary Gygax by donating to CCF through GenCon.

Hoplite

2008-11-01, 07:48 AM

I am shocked by this. Absolutely shocked that people are still thinking like this about D&D. It is a game, just a game!

Talic

2008-11-01, 07:50 AM

And the letter they have received from me:
I have a question, concerning not the accountability of the money you've received, but rather the accountability to the kids you claim to help.

This is in reference to the following attempted donor: http://www.livegameauctions.com/CharityAuction.jsp.

After reading this, I perused your site, and your mission statement, beliefs, and most of the information you provided in your About CCF section. Very noble. Every last bit of it speaks of using responsibility and accountability to assist as many children as can be helped. And yet, you turned down 17,398 ways to help. Tell me, which of the listed tenets of your foundation did this organization violate? How did this organization hinder your mission of helping kids? Did GenCon (and subsequently, Dungeons and Dragons) contribute to malnourished and uncared for children? If not, then why would you refuse to allow someone to support a cause you feel strongly about. GenCon offered you a donation out of the deep-seated respect for your organization held by one of the founding members of Dungeons and Dragons (Gary Gygax, who passed away earlier this year). In tribute to him, and out of respect for the causes he supported, an entire community wanted to honor both him and the cause he supported.

And they were turned away. This isn't like an anti-gambling organization taking money from casinos. It's an organization, too caught up in what they're fighting against, and losing sight what they were fighting FOR. Children. Needy children. That's what it is all about, or at least, that's what it was about, until your organization turned it into a Christianity vs. D&D issue. Is it not acceptable for people of different beliefs to gather together in support of a good cause?

Is the name of the CCF that important that it is worth the suffering of children? In first century Rome, christians had the moral strength to be reviled for their beliefs. They were hated, beaten, and killed, and yet they held to their beliefs. And now? We have an organization too afraid of being disliked to do what they're supposed to do.

Did your moral stand, in any way, detract from Dungeons and Dragons? Did it hurt the players, or the company that makes the game? No. The only victims in your choice were children. The same children in your mission statement, that there are too many of.... starving. How does that coincide with your beliefs.

Even in the bible, the parable of the good samaritan shows that even across beliefs, across nationalities, a man that reaches out and helps his fellow man loves his neighbor. Was that not what we gamers were trying to do?

We will still donate. Of that you can be sure. Your lack of judgement and clarity of purpose have not dulled our will to help others. But, as long as you maintain those backwards views, I can promise you. You will not see a dime of my money. Not even a cent. And I shall attempt to reach as many people as I can, and tell them the same.

When a person receives good news, they tell a friend. When a person receives bad news, they tell 10 friends. This was bad news. I have BCC'd most of my contacts, and am urging them to continue to spread this message, that as long as the CCF is unwilling to take money to help children, they were undeserving of any money they receive.

Respectfully,
<My name went here>

Jayngfet

2008-11-01, 07:59 AM

You think the trouble's over, a moral war won, then they raise the stakes.

You know you could start a small country with that much?

Felixaar

2008-11-01, 08:41 AM

Self-righteous jackasses.

*high-five* for that letter. pure awesome.

Also, just reading over this topic made me think of this comic (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3#comic).

darrell

2008-11-01, 08:56 AM

What was that 'Secret Policemen's ball' the Beeb showed recently affilated with?

Amnesty International; the first 'Ball was back in '76, though they didn't start using the "Policeman" name until '79.

(God I feel old now.)

whitelaughter

2008-11-01, 08:59 AM

So, 5 pages of complaints.

About what?

Because a charity does not want to be associated with D&D.

Who has been harmed? Precisely nobody - the money has simply gone to another charity: suffering people will still benefit, the people who made the donations still know that they have helped others.

Why would the charity do this? Simple - do a websearch on, say, Mother Teresa and see how many rants there are about how 'hypocritical' she was for accepting donations from dubious people and organisations.
Why should people sweating blood trying to help the suffering have to put up with these sort of smears? No reason - so the charity is protecting its members. Good for them.

And no, they're not going to check whether the accusations thrown against D&D are accurate. They're too *busy*. They simply don't have *time* to find out.

And if they did check? Sure, they'd find the 'demonic' charges to be laughable. But what about the savage violence and entrenched racism that OotS pokes fun at? How about Gygax's sexism? Or the early modules such as Keep on the Borderlands where PCs were expected to sell captives as slaves, and slaughter children?

Roleplaying, including D&D, is a lot of fun - and can be a healthy pastime. But D&D has a grubby past: we're in no position to take the moral high ground. Particularly against people who have far better things to do than listen to our complaints.

pendell

2008-11-01, 09:10 AM

My response:

Gentlemen,

It has recently come to my attention that CCF has found it necessary to
decline a check from GenCon on the basis of protecting the integrity of its
brand name.

I must express my deep sense of sadness and regret that you chose this
course of action. Gary Gygax, a Christian and a game designer in whose
memory the money was raised, was a man deeply loved by his community.
The roleplaying game he helped to write has been unfairly and unjustly
maligned as a gateway to the occult. But I have worked in outreach
to occultists for 9 years, and I confess I have never met one who used
any roleplaying game as a gateway into it. I have read real grimoires,
and any aspiring occultist who sought the knowledge found in them in D&D
would find that he had spent a lot of time and money for very little gain.

Nonetheless, because of mis-conceptions there has been a great deal of
pain and misunderstanding between the churchgoing community and the
gaming community, especially on those who count themselves members of both.

I am one of those.

Gary Gygax' death -- and the shared love for him in both communities --
represented a golden moment to heal the breech and redress a wrong.

CCF chose not to avail itself of the opportunity. If anything, it has made
the situation worse.

Whatever CCF intended with respect to protecting the integrity of its brand,
the actions CCF has taken have 'heaped burning coals' on the heads of many
in the gaming community, and I daresay it will make it much harder for
non-Christian gamers to consider the gospel or its claims. Its
hard to listen to what we preach when our actions speak so loudly.

Its just one more stumbling block in a road already full of potholes.

Because of this, I personally will be donating my money in future to World
Vision, Mission of Mercy, and related organizations which pursue the same
mission but do not feel it necessary to take such ill-advised actions to
protect their brand. An action, by the way, which rings hollow in the
eyes of many, since no other organization has ever turned down a no-strings-
attached gift raised from the benefit of this group in the thirty year
history of the auction.

I nonetheless wish you success in your mission to bring comfort to the
lost and the hurting of the world, and hope that our next occasion to speak
is under better circumstances.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zherog

2008-11-01, 09:13 AM

For those who think an e-mail to an account set up with an auto-reply is not good enough, here's some more information about the charity and who runs it:

Snail Mail Address

2821 Emerywood Parkway
Richmond VA 23294 USA

The president of the organization is Anne Lynam. The chairman of the Board of Directors is William E. Leahey, Jr.

I would like to strongly urge those who are in the mood to express their opinions to send an actual, physical letter to those individuals via snail mail. A physical letter has a much stronger impact in these sorts of situations, because of the effort involved in sending them. Please be polite in your correspondence. Explain the facts as you understand them, tell them why their views of gamers upsets you and (most importantly) point out that your donation money will be going to other charities in the future.

I also encourage those of you with blogs to make a post about this. Come back and link your blog post here, in order to help raise its Google rank. It would be good for this to show up high on searches for CCF, and for news to get far and wide -- including outside the gamer circle.

*

I was unable to find e-mail addresses for Ms. Lynam and Mr. Leahey (but I also didn't have much time for actual research). The only personal e-mail address I could find was for Ellie Whinnery, the Global Communications Manager. Her e-mail address is [email protected]. It's obviously hard to extrapolate a pattern from one address, but for those inclined to try to e-mail Ms. Lynam and Mr. Leahey, I'd suggest trying [email protected] and [email protected].

*

Finally, if folks are interested in even more charities, I'd be willing to list some of my personal favorites. But, I think between the two Rich mentioned in his news post (Fisher House and Plan USA) and the rest of the ones mentioned here, there's already quite a good list.

Trinak

2008-11-01, 10:20 AM

My two cents. Ok, don't go crazy and start writing them hate mail or anything like that. Maybe even just leave them alone. While I too think it is absurd to not take the money for charity, they have a right to their beliefs just as you or I do. If one of their beliefs is that DnD is evil how could they accept money from the sales of it? It would be like me accepting money from mainly the sales of pornography, or some other area I consider evil. There may be a difference of opinions/viewpoints, but that doesn't mean we have to attack it. They did what they had to do based on their beliefs, just as I'm sure many of you act in accordance with your own beliefs.

JaviSua

2008-11-01, 10:27 AM

The difference is: Starving children will suffer because they refuse to look past their personal views.

Haruki-kun

2008-11-01, 10:27 AM

And in our beliefs, we are respectfully expressing how we disagree with their actions by contacting them. No one is attacking anyone in those letters, we're trying to keep it as civilized as possible.

hamishspence

2008-11-01, 10:30 AM

Hypothetically, lets say a real Evil Organization was donating money to charity to bring up its PR- say, The Mafia.

Would you say that no matter the source, because people's lives are at stake, they must accept the money?

Now I think they are very wrong to not accept, but only because they are wrong about D&D.

EDIT: the contrasting view was said, I think, by Vespasian, when his advisor told him it was wrong- undignified to use money from taxing toilets to build temples. He held up a coin and said "Does it smell?"

Haruki-kun

2008-11-01, 10:35 AM

Would you say that no matter the source, because people's lives are at stake, they must accept the money?

The source does not matter as much as the means do. If the Mafia got the money by raising funds, it would be fine, hypothetically speaking of course.

PR or not, the money was raised cleanly for a good cause.

hamishspence

2008-11-01, 10:37 AM

how about if each member donated money from their private (ill-gotten) savings?

We all know it was raised cleanly, and the organizers/donators are good people. But others may refuse to believe that.

Haruki-kun

2008-11-01, 10:38 AM

how about if each member donated money from their private (ill-gotten) savings?

"How about if" happens to not be the case now.

hamishspence

2008-11-01, 10:41 AM

good point. Point I was making is- that if they genuinely believe...what they believe, in their worldview, it makes sense, not that their worldview is right, because in this case it isn't.

Trinak

2008-11-01, 10:44 AM

Let me clarify my post a bit. I just want to make sure no one is going to write offensive, attacking letters/emails. If you want to write a "civilized" one as someone put it, go ahead. Just remember that other people have different opinions than you and thats ok. The money was raised "cleanly" to us, not to them.
Also, starving children are a sad thing, but there are tons of starving children and quite a few starving children charities. If the concern was for starving children then they (Gen Con peoples) should have picked a different charity with that focus. Instead they went with Fisher House Foundation. Nothing wrong with that, just a different charity with a different goal.

hamishspence

2008-11-01, 10:46 AM

It was Science Officer Spock who said "I do not approve, I understand, whih is a different thing altogther"

klangley

2008-11-01, 10:51 AM

I received this reply from CCS. Comments follow.

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

Sincerely,

Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising

I can understand why an organization might not want to give permission for its name to be published in an event brochure if they have no control or influence over the event. It's not a common policy, but it's not unheard of.

For example, a pet charity I'm familiar with stopped allowing itself to be listed as a recipient at most dog shows after a judging scandal at a small regional show that had been heavily advertised as "come support the (pet rescue organization). It didn't mean they opposed dog shows; they just didn't want to take a chance.

This letter seems to indicate that the nature of the convention (or what games were featured) was not a factor in their decision.

Texas Jedi

2008-11-01, 11:22 AM

Here is what I wrote.

When I found out about this action I was appalled. Turning down over $17,000 in money donated in good faith because it might be "tainted" by Dungeons and Dragons (DnD) is reason many people do not take any kind of religion seriously.

I grew up learning and loving the teaching of Jesus Christ. He is my personal Savior and is a guiding light in my life. I think he would be shocked and appalled that your organization turned down money donated in good faith. He taught us to love and accept all of Humanity, not just those that believe the same things you do. Heck, he wasn't even Christian he was Jewish.

I have been playing DnD for well over a decade. I have never once worshiped a devil or have had thoughts of suicide. I played characters that fought evil and tried to make their world a better place. That is exactly what DnD is it is a game of make believe. I don't think any of those characters I created are any more real than any other fictional character. The game teaches you to use your imagination, think outside the box, and getting along with a group of people.

The sensational stories of the 70's and 80's are pure propaganda against DnD, by people that don't understand nor play it. I find it appalling that those close minded attitudes still persist in this day and age. The DnD I have been associated with has always been good triumphing over evil and a happy ending. I don't think that my soul has ever been "tainted" by DnD.

I apologize if your organization is not close minded and is only reacting because of close minded donors. I have seen and been around that type of close minded attitudes in my life. The only way to deal with them is through patience and education. You missed a golden opportunity to teach these types of people a lesson in love and acceptance by bowing to their pressure. You could have shown that people who play so called "tainted" hobbies are just as loving and just as open to helping their fellow man.

I have told all of my family and their responses are similar to mine even though they do not play any form of DnD. I know that one person standing against a wrong doesn't do much. I hope that the many letters and emails that you receive from people that are just as insulted by this as I am will change your mind. If many people stand against a great wrong it will be righted. I hope that this will change your attitude for future donations.

Sincerely,
Texas Jedi

I hope that we can at least shame them into saying they made a mistake. I think that would go along way into cooling my anger.

Barroque

2008-11-01, 11:22 AM

Letter sent:

I must commend you on your choice to reject the offering from persons involved with role playing. It is surely in the children’s best interest to only benefit from the charity of those your organization feel are worthy to donate. This calls to mind a few scriptures that may apply:

Luke 6:37
Luke 13:34-30
Matthew 7:6
Matthew 25:32-46

Rest assured, I will not bother your organization by offering any monies in the future and I have informed all those I know of your policy as well.

Reply:

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

Sincerely,

Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising

I guess they didn't think we were important. Nice to know they are woking on a good spin to try to cover up the huge insult. :smallannoyed:

Evil DM Mark3

2008-11-01, 11:30 AM

I think that Matthew 7:6 does quite neatly sum up my views on this charity actually.

Volug

2008-11-01, 11:39 AM

I am shocked by this. Absolutely shocked that people are still thinking like this about D&D. It is a game, just a game!

However just like anything, it can be misused for wrong purposes or whatever.

However raising that much money is not a bad thing, it was a good thing, and I'm shocked that they would reject that money simply because they think D&D = Stanic ((it isn't, unless the players make it that way (like most other things in a way), heck, you can make some sort of religion and goody-goody campaign))... I hate falling into stereo types >_<

Fawkes

2008-11-01, 11:50 AM

Well, it might get whoever made this decision fired, but that's probably about it.

Don't be so dismissive. That would be awesome. In fact, I say that's what we should aim for.

Deathslayer7

2008-11-01, 12:00 PM

wow. this thread got stickied. awesome. :smallsmile:

templardrake

2008-11-01, 12:12 PM

What I am truly disappointed with is not the fact that they refused the money because of money associated with gamers. I am disappointed that they snubbed Gary Gygax's memory (however politely it was worded). The money raised at GenCon was supposed to be in the memory of Mr. Gygax and would be part of his legacy.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-01, 12:22 PM

Or they don't do that enough for the taste of the even more Taliban-like organisations. (Seriously, how sane are people who claim starving people should be sent bibles rather than food?) Or they caved in to the "Wall Watchers" and changed their practices.
If the CCF is pandering to those people, I doubt the spokesperson would have reiterated its policy of non-proselytization as stated in the Wikipedia article.

For all those who are taking their reply seriously, another bit to consider (http://www.csrwire.com/News/248.html). Putting their name and logo on credit cards is fine... just not gaming conventions.
Nice. Not only that, but it's a credit card with a reputation as a predatory lender. And that's not diluting the name and logo?

while they had the decency to say at the end that the dont hate us, there is still some... discrepancy is the word i am looking for, i believe. all letters should now be asking "what about gencon would lower your integrity?" to which the answer will probably be "because we were not supporting gencon at all" which should be replied in turn with "are you or representatives involved with every group that gives you money?"
This is exactly what I plan on asking in my letter.

As satsunada pointed out, CCF is a 501(c)(3) organization; this means it gets federal tax exemption, and must follow certain rules in order to keep this exemption. Not too surprisingly, organizations like this tend to be very careful not to violate those rules. It's possible that that could be the reason; it's possible they had a knee-jerk reaction when the words "Dungeons" and "Dragons" got connected by an ampersand; it's possible there's other reasons for this that I'm not aware of; it's possible that it's all of these to some degree.
Given that tax exempt charities have been accepting money from GenCon for the past almost four decades, I can't see how this could be.

A while back a charity for abused children/families that I did extensive reporting about turned down sizeable gifts from licensed casino gaming and adult beverage establishments, on the grounds that they didn't wish to appear to condone practices that went against their mission statement (they're anti-gambling and alcohol, believing these things cause many of the problems their organization tries to fix). Some of the people who worked there weren't happy about it and a few even quit, but the directors thought taking the money that may have been made at the expense of the people they're trying to help would in effect be affirming bad behavior.
That would be fair enough if that were the case. But then you'd have to wonder about their conviction on it if they feel the need to feed us that BS about having no negative opinion of gamers.

In any case, the organization has made a clear effort in the past to be noted as having purely secular goals, despite their name. So the question would become, "Without the ridiculous religious bias, how does tabletop gaming go against their mission?" It's easy to see how gambling and alcohol can go against helping abused familys. Less so how saving an imaginary world from an imaginary monster goes against feeding starving children.

However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements.
I'm rather curious as to exactly what these specific criteria are and in what ways GenCon faild to meet them.

Lord Seth

2008-11-01, 12:41 PM

I don't expect them to take it seriously. Nor any of our complaints seriously, really. After all, we're the evil tainted ones with our dirty D&D money.

And I will indeed wish ill will on their entire organization. I don't trust a single person who works for it, let alone the higher-ups. If you don't like it, that's really just too bad.So, you're wishing ill will even the people who work hard at helping children and had nothing to do with the decision? You honestly see no problems with that? It seems to me you're acting just as snobby as the organization did.

However, this is exactly why I think that sending angry e-mails just to make yourself feel better, or sending them right after writing them instead of putting them aside for a while and then looking at them again before sending them, is a bad idea, because all it does is provide evidence that the D&D community is pretty malicious. A polite but firm letter would likely get a better reception. Granted, it might not get any reception at all, but it's much better than sending angry letters that make the D&D community look bad. If your motivation is only to make yourself feel better, you're honestly not much better than flamers on the internet.

Huh. I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I can't really. I had a similar experience with another organisation of religious nutters at a fundraising event, only that time the game in question was Magic the Gathering. If you're already wondering how DnD could possibly be perceived as satanic, just try and work out how Magic the Gathering is supposed to be linked to "demon-worship" and "death culture", won't you.Well way back when, it was in the official rulebooks that players would "ante" a random card up at the start of the game, and the winner would keep the anted cards. That's flat-out gambling, but to make things worse, there were even cards made that did things with it. For example, Demonic Attorney forced someone to add something to the ante or concede the game (giving up their already ante'd card) or a card that PERMANENTLY switched ownership of it and another card in play unless the opponent lost half of their beginning life (which would likely make them lose the game and their original anted card). One last example I need to mention is Amulet of Quoz, which, if your opponent doesn't add something to the ante, a coin is flipped to decide who wins (and thus who keeps the anted cards)

So as you can see, with a rule like that, and cards like that, I can see the reasoning for disliking the game on moral grounds. Of course, they got rid of the ante rule quite some time ago...

Talic

2008-11-01, 01:42 PM

OK, I got a response from CCF. I can't help but wonder how many people got the exact same response. Here it is:

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

I can't help but wonder, if the CCF has the utmost respect for the gaming community.... Then why does their policy prohibit even associating their name with it?

They prohibited their name being published because they did not wish to appear to endorse the gaming community... Isn't it the other way around? Wasn't the gaming community endorsing them, and their cause?

V Junior

2008-11-01, 01:48 PM

I still can't believe this. What a slap in the face.

What bugs me is the stereotyping. Why the hell do people think that DnDers are satanspawn? We're not! Heck, those people at GenCon were TRYING TO HELP CHILDREN.

Plus, they accepted money form the great late Gary. G himself. Now you can bet that quite a bit of his money came from DnD. And they accepted that money. So why not this money? It's an insult to GG, to gamers and a teeny bit insulting to those pooor starving kids. 'Oh, sorry, we can't give you clean drinking water and fresh food because the money we need for it was about to be donated by some evil DnDers.' SHEESH.

[/rant]

Barroque

2008-11-01, 01:54 PM

Apparently that is their new form letter. They accept the funds from the individual gamers but refuse the funds from the organization. This has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with image.

Talic

2008-11-01, 02:01 PM

A response to their boiler-plate:

I recently received a response from CCF representatives concerning the Gen Con incident concerning our attempted donation, and the CCF. It seems quite similar to responses received by many in the gaming community. Identical, in fact.

I can't help but wonder, however. If your organization has the 'utmost respect for the gaming community', why do your policies prohibit even associating your name with it?

You seem to have a misconception about the endorsing, as well. When you accept money from an organization that has a limited ability to donate (once or twice a year, or so, as an organized group), you are not endorsing their actions. They are endorsing yours. It would have been quite nice to see adults setting aside religious differences to help children. I'm saddened that your 'policies' prevent that, for fear of your name being tarnished. I wonder if the several hundred children that money would have helped will appreciate your good name while they starve, or become ill.

You know, in your mission statement, you don't have a single part, either there, or in beliefs, concerning christianity. There's nothing anywhere concerning fund raising, and who you'll let say that they gave money to you. So all we can say is who we didn't give money to, because some pigheaded 'policy' put personal differences ahead of your mission.

One of the largest reasons I left the christian faith was difficulty in reconciling the beliefs stated in the bible with the numerous contradicting actions by so many of its members, both in the community, and in the spotlight.

I would like to suggest, in the future, if your policy is detracting from your mission, it may be time to modify your policy.

Unsatisfied by cut-and-paste responses to very real problems,
<my name went here>

breakerfinn

2008-11-01, 02:17 PM

My apologies for not reading through the entire thread to get here to make my post, but I wanted to share my email exchange with the CCF on this matter...

on 10/31/08, dave originally wrote:

"The charity refused due to the fact that the money was raised partly by the sales of Dungeons and Dragons materials, which as we all know, puts an irrevocable taint of evil on the filthy lucre that us demon-worshipping gamers might want to use to, say, donate to starving children. Not only is this a slap in the face to every gamer, but it is especially insulting to Mr. Gygax himself, who I understand donated to their cause many times over the years. Plus, I'm sure the children who would have gotten food or clean drinking water with that money would be sort of upset, too."
--Rich Burlew, Giant in the Playground

It would behoove all of you at the Christian Children's Fund to remember that you are accepting money to do God's work and help starving and disadvantaged children, not serve your own morally superior egos.
Shame on you.

Dave Cochran
Pasadena, Ca

breakerfinn

2008-11-01, 02:19 PM

And today, I recieved this reply:

From: Cheri Dahl
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: Goodwill of gamers

Dear Mr. Cochran,

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

Sincerely
Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising

breakerfinn

2008-11-01, 02:23 PM

and my last word on the matter, back to Ms Dahl at CCF:

Dear Ms. Dahl,
Thank you for your email response in this matter. I apologize for the tone of my previous mail, especially in light of your response. I will certainly pass this along to my little corner of the gaming community.
If I could make a humble suggestion: perhaps a review of your policies for endorsements should undergo something of a review. Without knowing the specifics, of course, it would be a shame for some silly little rule to get in the way of future donations.
Thank you for your time. It is well appreciated.
Dave Cochran

I tried not to make it too apologetic and still be constructive...
Just thought I'd share my $0.02
Best,
Dave
aka Breaker Finn, the cutest damn halfling spellthief ever (or so my wife says...)

CabbageTheif

2008-11-01, 02:26 PM

something that i noticed this morning when i was checking up on my webcomics... goblins supports them. they had an add

now, i am not saying this as a "how dare they!" type of thing; quite the contrary. has a deal been worked out? or are rich burlew and tarol hunt on opposite ends of this issue? is thunt (as he calls himself, much like our Giant) unaware of the situation?

i am just all sorts of confused...

Lord Seth

2008-11-01, 02:30 PM

breakerfinn

2008-11-01, 02:35 PM

Hmph...
Now I wish I'd read a few messages earlier... I didn't realize I'd received the same boilerplate response...
Aw, heck with 'em...

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-01, 03:22 PM

Er, where is it? Maybe I missed it but I don't see it on the main page.
Yeah, there's no such ad when I see the page either.

However, there are a number of ad services where you just place a spot for the ad and ads are chosen by the service when the page is called up. If it uses a Google ads type of thing, the ad program could see a lot of gaming pages are mentioning Christian Children's Fund and consequently think that an ad for Christian Children's Fund is appropriate for gaming-related websites. Same reason you'll see ads in favor of a particular politician crop up on pages bashing that politician.

And you will notice there is an ad that is generated by a service in this or a similar way on the bottom of the main Goblins page. If this is where CabbageTheif saw the ad, then that would be what happened.

T-O-E

2008-11-01, 04:13 PM

This Anne woman sure does travel a lot.

AslanCross

2008-11-01, 05:06 PM

yooy

2008-11-01, 05:22 PM

I sent a letter to them about them using an auto reply tricking you into thinking it's individually written. Looking forward to the auto reply back to that :smallcool: can't believe how a charity can be so immoral

CabbageTheif

2008-11-01, 05:31 PM

If this is where CabbageTheif saw the ad, then that would be what happened.

that was exactly it. mystery solved!

and to answer those who dont understand the point of this, who dont think that any good will come of mailing letters... here is my thought on it. yes, the money has already been donated elsewhere. no, we will not ever change their opinion about the issue. yeah, they may have their own legal reason to do this, to protect themselves. but none of that is, as i see it, the point of the letters.

i know they are non-profit,, but i can only think of profit-based terms to explain my meaning; please bear with me. the point of the letters is to let the buisness know that they have a large consumer-base who have expressed interest in 'purchasing' from them, and they turned us away. now we arer showing them exactly how large this consumer base is, and other organizations who saw how many people responded will be able to think to themselves holy crap, that is a large and dedicated bunch whose money could be directed towards US!; this will lead to a smaller chance of a repeat of the current issue. furthermore, the world at large may have a stereotype for gamers that has, through this action, been challenged. not only did we try to donate a large amount of money, when it was denied we were angry for the children. not exactly a bunch of anti-social 40 year olds living in our parents basements, are we?

i dont write this letter for the gamers of today; our die have been cast, the modifiers added up. i do this for our gamer-children, and their gamer-children after, that they can live in a world where the smart and creative who express such qualities through a particular hobby wont be discriminated against.

Sha'uri

2008-11-01, 05:38 PM

They won't take the money because they were not associated with it...that should not matter. If people are willing to give money to help hungry children (I'm a mother myself), it should not matter whether GenCon was associated or not. In times like these were money is tight with most people, they should happily accept anything and not turn their noses up at it. How ridiculous.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-01, 05:57 PM

As has been said before, the fact that they are using form letters is not a bad thing. With the sheer volume of material they must be recieving (:smallbiggrin:), they cannot individually respond to every letter. We have to simply hope that they are reading enough of them to really figure out why we are mad and so they understand the appropriate way to handle this sort of situation in the future.

Lissou

2008-11-01, 06:09 PM

I wrote a second e-mail (incidentally, my first one never got a reply whatsoever) in which I politely ask what exactly was a problem with accepting the donation, saying that if they could be so kind as to explain it to me, I would be able to relay the information and clear the misunderstanding, if misunderstanding there is.
I'll let you know if they reply to this one.

Anteros

2008-11-01, 06:15 PM

You know, it's really this companies decision if they want to take your money or not. What exactly do you hope your letters will accomplish?

"We won't be sending you money in the future because you won't accept our money!" Does that really sound rational?

This company clearly stated they don't take money from organizations they are not involved in. Probably because they don't want to take the time to research every single organization that wants to be able to say it donated.
This doesn't necessarily reflect anything about their attitude to gamers at all. I understand many of you feel they should accept money from any source they can get it from, but at the end of the day it is their company, not yours. They do not exist to make a profit, and to be perfectly honest, they don't care very much about your opinion.

Also, I'm not sure how this entire thread hasn't been scrubbed. I understand it's an issue that's close to the heart of the moderators, but it's an incredible double standard. I can't count the number of times someone has said something like

"ridiculous religious bias"

"Crazy Christian Fundies"

"religious nutters"

"Self-righteous jackasses."

"if they genuinely believe...what they believe, in their worldview, it makes sense, not that their worldview is right, because in this case it isn't."

"See this is why rel***** is such a bad thing for the world. Sure it gives people motivation and/or hope but it also(in to many cases) results in stuff like war, fear, depriving children of halloween, and deprving them of food in the aforementioned charity rejection."

"They won't accept seventeen thousand freaking dollars because of bigoted, downright wrong conceptions."

These are only a tiny fraction of the posts that are clearly against the rules here. I thought rules were meant to be universal. Not simply enforced or ignored based on personal convenience? I am completely disgusted with the moderators of this forum. I do not even share the beliefs of this organization (obviously, or I would not be on this forum.) but I do believe they have just as much a right to them as you do to yours.

And for all you self righteous people claiming "how dare they pass up my money to help the children!?" You donated a few dollars to help some starving children. These people have donated their entire lives. And have done more for these children than every single person on this forum or at Gencon will likely do for them in their entire lives combined. Maybe you should think about that the next time you feel self righteous for dropping 5 dollars in a bucket.

Raging Gene Ray

2008-11-01, 07:00 PM

However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements.

This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons.

From this, it seems that the "specific criteria" may have nothing to do with any kind of moral judgments on gamers. It may just have something to do with all the paperwork and bureaucracy involved with trying to accept money from any organization that may not be completely non-profit. The whole idea that it was turned down due to religious bias is probably just a rumor.

Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1107905) another post I found when looking for other sources that reported this that says something similar, only this poster seems to have personal experience to back him up.

Yarram

2008-11-01, 08:08 PM

Wait a minute ... so if CCF rejected the funds because it would give the appearance of CCF endorsing Gencon, why wouldn't Fisher House also reject those funds for the same reason?

I suspect EvilDMM has the right of it; CCF may have been put under pressure by people who donate a *lot* more money than we do.

I wonder if World Vision would refuse the money? It's mission is nearly identical to CCFs.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fisher House wouldn't reject them, because the Christian fund is religious, but Fisher House isn't so they're allowed to take money off people who worship Satan, because officially they don't believe in him.

Mr. Moon

2008-11-01, 08:36 PM

"We won't be sending you money in the future because you won't accept our money!" Does that really sound rational?

Not at all. However, "We won't send you our money individualy, which would likely be accepted, because you won't take our money when we offer it to you as a whole" does.

Also, I wrote this:

Anne Lynam;

It has recently come to my attention that the CCF has turned down a donation of seventeen-thousand dollars, raised by GenCon in memory of Gary Gygax, who, as I am told, was a long-time supporter of the CCF. This action of yours has me some-what confused. You have responded to other letters sent to you by saying that "as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo." But yet, after some short research, I found an article on your partnership with Capital One, a credit card company, and - as I have come to see it - an enabler of Greed. That is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is it not? So of course, I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

You claim you refused this donation because you don't want to be seen as connected to the Gaming community, but I don't see how accepting the donation would have created that illusion. A donation is just that - a donation. A gift from the heart, given from one party to another to show good-will and to help the second party achieve their goals. I don't understand how accepting this donation would in any way be considered as you showing any connection with or support for the Gaming community. Now, I am painfully aware of the 80's propaganda that Dungeons and Dragons, and similar Role-Playing games, are gate-ways to demon-summoning and Satan-worship, but as the daughter of a pastor who is now serving in the Canadian Army as a pastor to soldiers who may one day fight in Afghanistan or Iraq (although I pray it may never come to that), I have yet to see the connection. My father, the aforementioned pastor, is an avid gamer, as am I. As far as I'm concerned, Dungeons and Dragons and video games are little more than a hobby, just like sports or gardening. It's a GAME, for crying out loud. Hence the term "Gamer". I don't see how a simple game deserves this kind of avoidance. We're geeks, not lepers. I mean, some of the nicest, most caring people I know and you can ever hope to meet play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have always supported CCF, if not monetarily (as a xx year-old focusing on school and receiving no allowance from her parents, you can understand how monetary support is off-access to one such as myself), then in at least good will and pride towards you. **self-scrubbed** This has always been one of my major beefs with more right-wing groups, who I am aware have pressured you previously. However, as both a Christian and a life-long gamer, I find that the best possible face I can place on your refusal to take GenCon's generously offered money would be gratuitously disgusting - nothing more than a slap to the face to the Gaming community. We offered the hand of kindness, only to have it slapped aside. It that really how a Christian charity should operate? I respected the CCF. **self-scrubbed**

**self-scrubbed**

I hope you will consider these words, for I feel quite strongly about this. I would humbly like to request an apology, both personal and public, and perhaps of a public explanation. And until I recieve these, I must assume that you are not interested in my money - and so you shall recieve non of it. Likewise, I will urge my friends and loved ones to reconsider donating to you, since an insult to gamers is an insult to me, and thus an insult to my family.

Sincerely
*my name*
Christian, Gamer, Human Being

I'll print it off tonight and send it via Snail-Mail next time I'm out.

Vexxation

2008-11-01, 09:36 PM

Excuse me, Mr. Goddard.

I'd like to know what right you have to turn down money, FREE money, that would go to help children.

I'm very displeased with your course of action.
I'll be blunt, I've never even considered donating to your charity. There are, after all, plenty of starving Americans, too. But, hey, you do good work and you help the children of the world. I can't fault you on that.

But then, to turn down such a sum of money, it seems an atrocity! Do you honestly believe that the money is corrupted or evil, merely because it comes (partially) from D&D sales? Do you truly believe gaming to be evil? Newsflash: people who want to give money to feed starving children aren't evil. They're charitable. Let's be honest: GenCon could still have made that money without planning to give it to a charity. Then it would have been all profit, lining their pockets. Instead, they go out of their way to be nice and try to feed some poor kids, and get turned down?

I ask you, who more evil in this situation: he who gives money or he who, even being closely tied to the foundation, says, "No."?
I know the answer. And I'll bet "Little Suzy" from your commercials does, too. Too bad knowing that won't feed her.

I can't believe this happened. I never thought even the most thickheaded of charities would turn down money over such a stupid, baseless, and most importantly, false pretense.

You have failed.
This mars your name to all gamers, and such a pompous act will only serve to further ensure you never see dime one from many. More grateful, more deserving organiztions exist out there, and they'll get my money before you do.

Once more: You have failed. Shame on you.

There's my message, all spoiler'd and such.
It's harsh, but hey, harshness is needed. I'll be lucky if they even bother reading it anyway at this point.

But this is just disgusting. I can't tell you how many times I've seen their commercials and thought, "Oh, those poor kids.". And now, when gamers ponied up $17,000 to hand to them, they refuse.

Some suggest they have pressure to do so from bigger donors. I'd like to know who these bigger donors are, so I can get word out as to how narrow-minded, bigoted, just plain incorrect they are.

Disgusting, this is.

Lord Seth

2008-11-01, 09:56 PM

So...I really have to ask, does anyone have any actual proof that they rejected it because they thought D&D was horribly evil?

The only source I believe I've seen for this entire claim was this (http://www.livegameauctions.com/CharityAuction.jsp) and nothing else. Firstly, it says that they didn't want to be sponsors and that's why it went to something else. As far as I can tell, the $17,000 wasn't even on the table at that point; they just didn't want to be sponsors for the event. In other words, they pulled out before the thing even started. This could have much less to do with them thinking D&D was bad and more with being worried that donors might not like the fact they seem connected with it. So, we have one source (and only one!) that states this, and if you examine the phrasing, they did NOT reject the $17,000 because the money hadn't even been raised by that point.

Additionally, they DID say that the reason they chose not to sponsor the event was that they had rules about what events they could/couldn't endorse, and GenCon wasn't an event that fit the criteria.

So...are there any other sources that state that they rejected it because of the D&D connection? Because it really seems that people are judging this all on one source, and saying the source says things it doesn't.

How ironic that the "Larry-Boy and the Rumor Weed" episode of VeggieTales was on today. In a song about rumors, it defines what a rumor is:
"It starts as a story.
Maybe it's true, maybe not.
But once you repeat it,
It's hard to defeat it!
Now look at the mess that you've got!"

AmberVael

2008-11-01, 09:59 PM

You know, it's really this companies decision if they want to take your money or not. What exactly do you hope your letters will accomplish?
I would like to think they would actually listen and maybe 1) give an apology and/or 2) not pass money up for ridiculous reasons next time. How much chance is there of that? Not much. But it doesn't take me much time to write an email that will also be cathartic to me, so I don't really consider it time wasted.

"We won't be sending you money in the future because you won't accept our money!" Does that really sound rational?
When put that way, no it doesn't. However, that isn't the only thing being said, nor are some people saying it at all. For example, I'm complaining because it was done unfairly and reflects poorly on them and insults us.

This company clearly stated they don't take money from organizations they are not involved in. Probably because they don't want to take the time to research every single organization that wants to be able to say it donated.
This doesn't necessarily reflect anything about their attitude to gamers at all. I understand many of you feel they should accept money from any source they can get it from, but at the end of the day it is their company, not yours. They do not exist to make a profit, and to be perfectly honest, they don't care very much about your opinion.
It's already been stated in this thread that they DO take money from organizations they aren't involved in, so obviously there is something else at work here.

Also, I'm not sure how this entire thread hasn't been scrubbed. I understand it's an issue that's close to the heart of the moderators, but it's an incredible double standard. I can't count the number of times someone has said something like
*examples snipped to conserve space*
These are only a tiny fraction of the posts that are clearly against the rules here. I thought rules were meant to be universal. Not simply enforced or ignored based on personal convenience? I am completely disgusted with the moderators of this forum. I do not even share the beliefs of this organization (obviously, or I would not be on this forum.) but I do believe they have just as much a right to them as you do to yours.

For one thing, this is the Giant's forum. He made the rules. He is the only reason the rules are here, and are, indeed, enforced- it has nothing to do with some kind of overarching greater, infallible rule set, it is his preference and we abide by it because he wants the people in this forum to.

As such, if the Giant wants to peel back the rule for a little bit for whatever reason, it is completely within his rights.

For another, it's not like it is being ignored:

The Voice of Mod: Also, let's be careful not to bring their religion into this. There are plenty of secular reasons why this is a stupid thoughtless blunder on their part without calling their religion into question.

Plus, no threats of violence. Consider the thread warned.

That aside, next:

And for all you self righteous people claiming "how dare they pass up my money to help the children!?" You donated a few dollars to help some starving children. These people have donated their entire lives. And have done more for these children than every single person on this forum or at Gencon will likely do for them in their entire lives combined. Maybe you should think about that the next time you feel self righteous for dropping 5 dollars in a bucket.
Ah yes. Because spending more time attempting to do something good shields you from all the times you do something wrong.
Oh, wait, no it doesn't.
Maybe we could do more. But that doesn't excuse them for turning down an easy opportunity to help us do that.

KnightDisciple

2008-11-01, 10:09 PM

Cross-posted for potential truth from the WotC boards:
1.)
"And I'm saying if the Happy Fun-Time Jesus Camp had an auction, at which they said, publicly, they would be collecting for CCF, and didn't arrange with CCF beforehand to use the name, CCF would refuse the proceeds for the same legal reasons.

If you don't make arrangements to use the name, the charity cannot accept your donation without ceding certain rights to the name.

No matter how paranoid gamers might be about how persecuted our hobby is, they put out a public statement of respect for the gaming community, D&D in particular, and Gygax. They cannot accept the money because Gen Con screwed up the arrangements and used their name without permission. What more do you want?"

2.)"Just like D&D and the OGL, there are RULES for how and who they can take money from...

In order to put the official D20 logo on your book, you have to go through a process...Cross all the I's and dot the T's.
Or else you don't get to use the logo.

If you're a corporation or an event that wants to collect money for a donation to a charity, you have to go through the process and correctly file everything before you go and announce that, hey, we're collecting money basically "in the name of this charity"...
Which, let's face it, is what you're doing - you're associating your organization or event with their name by saying that you're collecting money to give to them.

Just like Kaldric said, it doesn't matter if it's the Jesus-For-President Corporation - if they didn't ask permission and go through the whole required process to hold a fundraising effort in the name of the charity, then the charity can't legally accept the money.

Have you guys considered that there may even be legal justification for removing the charity's non-profit charity status for accepting improperly offered donations?
We all watch the news - how many charities have come under investigation for not documenting how every last dollar is spent and how they handle accepting donations?

What it boils down to is that there's only one particular way they're allowed to do things and they're not allowed to deviate from that, cuz it's just the rules that they gotta follow."

Incidentally...is D&D the only thing sold/promoted/whatever at Gencon? Or rather, D&D/D20 Modern/Star Wars RPG/Paizo Pathfinder/associated materials? Or are there other RPGs, ones that may have made more legitimate protest points due to contect (aka, more directly occult-related, highly violent/sensual imagry, etc.)?

Like Lord Seth says, we've got precisely one source, one that I'll openly state is likely biased, and beyond that, there's the form letter responses. Not a whole lot to go on, really.

Bird face

2008-11-01, 10:17 PM

I'm just shocked by the selfishness and hypocrisy on display here.

So the charity didn't accept your money. Big deal. You don't know their reasons, but immediately you assumed it was a knee-jerk reaction to a bunch of propoganda published decades ago.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe- just maybe- reactions like THIS were what kept them away from a D&D related company? Pages and pages of arrogant e-mails and letters from entitled gamers who donated two bucks? Right now, they're probably congratulating themselves for not getting anymore involved with a community so ready to spew so much misguided hate.

In one week, this whole event is going to be forgotten around here, and the people over at that charity will still be doing their jobs.

Get over yourselves. Reactions like this reflect negatively on the gaming community.

Anteros

2008-11-01, 10:22 PM

I would like to think they would actually listen and maybe 1) give an apology and/or 2) not pass money up for ridiculous reasons next time. How much chance is there of that? Not much. But it doesn't take me much time to write an email that will also be cathartic to me, so I don't really consider it time wasted.

When put that way, no it doesn't. However, that isn't the only thing being said, nor are some people saying it at all. For example, I'm complaining because it was done unfairly and reflects poorly on them and insults us.

It's already been stated in this thread that they DO take money from organizations they aren't involved in, so obviously there is something else at work here.

For one thing, this is the Giant's forum. He made the rules. He is the only reason the rules are here, and are, indeed, enforced- it has nothing to do with some kind of overarching greater, infallible rule set, it is his preference and we abide by it because he wants the people in this forum to.

As such, if the Giant wants to peel back the rule for a little bit for whatever reason, it is completely within his rights.

For another, it's not like it is being ignored:

That aside, next:

Ah yes. Because spending more time attempting to do something good shields you from all the times you do something wrong.
Oh, wait, no it doesn't.
Maybe we could do more. But that doesn't excuse them for turning down an easy opportunity to help us do that.

The Giant is not the one making such statements, nor does he actively police these boards as far as I know. Despite that, yes it would be within his rights to ignore his own rules. It would certainly make me lose a great deal of respect for him, and make me stop posting here, buying his merchandise, etc, but he would be within his rights. Fortunately he has not done so. The mods on the other hand should be policing these boards. And these kinds of posts should not exist.

And I never said doing good shields you from doing wrong. But it cracks me up how much "holier than thou" people are getting with a charity.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-01, 10:22 PM

Cross-posted for potential truth from the WotC boards:
1.)"…

Have you guys considered that there may even be legal justification for removing the charity's non-profit charity status for accepting improperly offered donations?
We all watch the news - how many charities have come under investigation for not documenting how every last dollar is spent and how they handle accepting donations?

…"
GenCon has apparently been making charitable donations for several decades now. I trust the people that arrange these auctions know the score by now. Have any of the charities they've donated to lost their non-profit status? I don't think so. There's no legal issue beyond CCF's own policies here.

I'm just shocked by the selfishness and hypocrisy on display here.
It's selfish to get angry when you try to help do some good in the world and the agency you choose to do your aiding says, "no thanks, we don't want your help"? I don't follow.

So the charity didn't accept your money. Big deal. You don't know their reasons, but immediately you assumed it was a knee-jerk reaction to a bunch of propoganda published decades ago.
While it's true that this appears to be an unfair assumption, it's hardly huge leap. The propaganda you mentioned was hurtful slander and libel. The name of this particular charity is suggestive of the people that spewed the propaganda. And it doesn't take much digging around to find that there are still people out there who believe the propaganda.

And, unfortunately, even the report on livegameauctions.com (http://www.livegameauctions.com/CharityAuction.jsp) is worded in a way to suggest that CCF has bought into that propaganda. Since the people who wrote that page were the closest we have to a first-hand report regarding CCF's initial response to their selection as the charity for this year, we would tend to trust them.

Pages and pages of arrogant e-mails and letters from entitled gamers who donated two bucks?
With all due respect, you should do a bit more research as to the charitable activities of the donors before insinuating that what they've done is worth no more than "two bucks."

The Giant is not the one making such statements, nor does he actively police these boards as far as I know.
Generally, he does not participate in active moderation. But please note that he has posted two or three times in this thread, and the red text quoted by Vael came directly from the Giant.

But it cracks me up how much "holier than thou" people are getting with a charity.
If every charity was exactly what it claimed to be, there wouldn't be the myriad laws and organizations policing them.

Island Gorilla

2008-11-01, 10:39 PM

Right now, they're probably congratulating themselves for not getting anymore involved with a community so ready to spew so much misguided hate.

Yeah, chances are they've already got their hands full on that front.

pendell

2008-11-01, 11:49 PM

I thought rules were meant to be universal. Not simply enforced or ignored based on personal convenience?

I suggest you research the law enforcement concept of discretion.

Fundamentally, it works like this: Just because a rule exists, and just
because a rule is a good rule, does not mean that you have to enforce
it the way a computer would. You're allowed to cut people slack.

The rules are made with human beings in mind, and as a result it isn't uncommon to allow people to blow off a little steam. It's sometimes better
to let people rant a bit than to robotically enforce the rules, which will
stir them up more and make them angry at YOU as well.

Here's another vocabulary word: Martinet.

A person who ignores the rules because he thinks they apply to everyone but him is a scofflaw; this is a bad thing. A martinet is the opposite; a person who religiously applies the letter of the law both to themselves and
to others in as strict a fashion as it is possible to interpret.

These people are just as bad as scofflaws. If you drive a car, imagine someone you were forced to ride with who reported you to the police
EVERY time you exceeded the speed limit by even ONE kilometer for even ONE second, regardless of reason or weakness. A person who has no give in them whatsoever.

People like that tend not to live very long. If they aren't killed by the people around them, they tend to die of high blood pressure, stroke, and other stress-related illnesses. Because human beings simply aren't made that way.

So it isn't that the rules are being broken; they're simply being applied by the mods with wisdom and common sense and recognition that they are policing real-life human beings, not robots. I applaud them for that.

That's why the Giant only issued a warning rather than locking a thread and sending all those affected an infraction.

He or the other mods *may* lock the thread and *may* issue infractions if it gets out of hand. The fact that they have not done so shows mercy and kindness for the people here, keeping the forum a welcoming place .. especially after the subject matter , provocative by its very nature, was published by the Giant himself. If you toss meat into a dog's cage, don't be surprised if it bites at it.

I believe the Giant has handled the matter so far quite well. I have no complaints.

Another thing ...

Some here actively are wishing people in the charity ill, or hoping to get someone fired.

Bear in mind, gentlemen and ladies, that these people have dedicated their lives to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and going to the most
miserable corners of the earth. I think it only fair that we , sitting comfortably at our computers, cut them a little slack.

I believe that, whatever the words of the notice, that the gamer stereotype was a factor in the decision. I do not think it wise to reinforce that stereotype by acting in an immature fashion. I would rather *shame* them by doing a better job of living up to their ideals than they do.

Sending angry letters means they post it and say 'see how they hate us-- we must be doing something right!'

But when kind, gentle, decent people rebuke them for their action, It heaps hot coals on their heads. Done right, it can make them call their entire world view into question. Nobody cares about the insults of a belligerent teenager. But if Mother Theresa calls up just to tell you how disappointed she is? Brother, that stings.

So by all means, tell them how upset you are. By all means, take your charity dollars elsewhere. But I don't think one mistake is enough reason
to hate someone forever just because they made *one* error in judgement.
I'm living in a glass house, so I can't throw too many rocks at 'em.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Smoke_Rulz

2008-11-01, 11:54 PM

I received this reply from CCS.

<cut for length>

Hahaha what a gigantic lie that reply is.

So, you're wishing ill will even the people who work hard at helping children and had nothing to do with the decision? You honestly see no problems with that? It seems to me you're acting just as snobby as the organization did.

Yes I am. :smallbiggrin: And no I don't see any problems with it. Because I don't believe for a second that they're helping anything. My hatred for their organization stems from a long time ago, long before the incident that started this topic we post in now (and this incident sure didn't improve their standing). No, I will not discuss it. No, I don't care if your opinion on things is different. And yes, I will continue to wish ill will on anyone that is a part of the organization for as long as I please. I am a very hateful and vengeful person, and if that gets to you so much that you would somehow label it as "snobby," you should lighten up a bit. :smallwink:

... If your motivation is only to make yourself feel better...

Not my motivation in the slightest. Not sure if that was the reason for anybody else in this topic, but, that is kind of a lame reason to send out the e-mail.

Anteros

2008-11-02, 12:07 AM

I suggest you research the law enforcement concept of discretion.

Fundamentally, it works like this: Just because a rule exists, and just
because a rule is a good rule, does not mean that you have to enforce
it the way a computer would. You're allowed to cut people slack.

The rules are made with human beings in mind, and as a result it isn't uncommon to allow people to blow off a little steam. It's sometimes better
to let people rant a bit than to robotically enforce the rules, which will
stir them up more and make them angry at YOU as well.

Here's another vocabulary word: Martinet.

A person who ignores the rules because he thinks they apply to everyone but him is a scofflaw; this is a bad thing. A martinet is the opposite; a person who religiously applies the letter of the law both to themselves and
to others in as strict a fashion as it is possible to interpret.

These people are just as bad as scofflaws. If you drive a car, imagine someone you were forced to ride with who reported you to the police
EVERY time you exceeded the speed limit by even ONE kilometer for even ONE second, regardless of reason or weakness. A person who has no give in them whatsoever.

People like that tend not to live very long. If they aren't killed by the people around them, they tend to die of high blood pressure, stroke, and other stress-related illnesses. Because human beings simply aren't made that way.

So it isn't that the rules are being broken; they're simply being applied by the mods with wisdom and common sense and recognition that they are policing real-life human beings, not robots. I applaud them for that.

That's why the Giant only issued a warning rather than locking a thread and sending all those affected an infraction.

He or the other mods *may* lock the thread and *may* issue infractions if it gets out of hand. The fact that they have not done so shows mercy and kindness for the people here, keeping the forum a welcoming place .. especially after the subject matter , provocative by its very nature, was published by the Giant himself. If you toss meat into a dog's cage, don't be surprised if it bites at it.

I believe the Giant has handled the matter so far quite well. I have no complaints.
Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, well as a person who is a Christian, and not one who even shares the beliefs being railed at here, I don't feel particularly welcome here right now. If these types of comments were stated in any other thread regarding any other subject it would be locked.

On this very page I see someone called the christian community as "spewing misguided hate" Oh yes. So very appropriate. Truly, we wouldn't want to apply the rules in this situation because someone might get their feelings hurt.

I have no problem with the Giant himself, because I can see where he is asking people not to say such things, but I have lost a great, great deal of respect for both our moderators and the community of this board.

Lord Seth

2008-11-02, 12:11 AM

Yes I am. :smallbiggrin: And no I don't see any problems with it. Because I don't believe for a second that they're helping anything. My hatred for their organization stems from a long time ago, long before the incident that started this topic we post in now (and this incident sure didn't improve their standing). No, I will not discuss it. No, I don't care if your opinion on things is different. And yes, I will continue to wish ill will on anyone that is a part of the organization for as long as I please. I am a very hateful and vengeful person, and if that gets to you so much that you would somehow label it as "snobby," you should lighten up a bit. :smallwink:So, I assume you also held all Enron employees accountable for the scandal their bosses were involved in?

Barroque

2008-11-02, 01:02 AM

Here is one link (http://www.livegameauctions.com/Genconauction.jsp).

See the note at the bottom. I can only assume they did not make that up.

For those who are upset with those of us who are annoyed the money was refused, that is your right. You can say they have every right to refuse any donation for any reason and that is your prerogative. Please note, they spent nearly $25 million on fundraising for the 06/07 fiscal year. They work very hard to get donations for their cause so one would think they would accept what they get.

For those of you who say my $2 isn't worth crying about, try sponsoring a child for years only to read something that says they don't want the money possibly "tainted" by D&D. I am miffed, to put it politely.

When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements…. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

I would dearly like to know how CCF was to have their name published and what it would say/suggest they were endorsing. Are they saying the endorsement was a requirement for the donation? It seems odd to say they are disappointed they didn’t receive the donation when they allegedly rejected it. IMO, it looks like someone isn’t telling the whole truth or someone is trying to spin a situation so they don’t look too bad.

Facts and Figures (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3499)

Lord Seth

2008-11-02, 01:18 AM

Here is one link (http://www.livegameauctions.com/Genconauction.jsp).

See the note at the bottom. I can only assume they did not make that up.That's the same site as the original source, though, and the way they mentioned it makes me question it somewhat.

Facts and Figures (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3499)Actually, that makes it look pretty good. It's actually ranked slightly higher than Plan USA (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4337). It might not be a four-star charity but a three-star ("Exceeds or meets industry standards and performs as well as or better than most charities in its Cause.") is still a good rating.

Barroque

2008-11-02, 01:27 AM

I wasn't saying they were bad - they have actually improved if you look at their history - I was citing my source. :smallwink:

I will be miffed if the original source of all this was incorrect is saying:

The Original charity, the Christian Children's Fund, won't accept any money that may have been tainted by Dungeons and Dragons.

or if the donation would only be given if CCF agreed to be a sponsor. If that date at the bottom (http://www.livegameauctions.com/Genconauction.jsp) is correct, this isn't new - it’s just getting more attention.

Smoke_Rulz

2008-11-02, 01:33 AM

So, I assume you also held all Enron employees accountable for the scandal their bosses were involved in?

Analogies that make no sense are awesome! And regardless, I knew nothing of Enron before or after that whole shindig went down. Did I not just say I have reasons for hating the CCF organization and every misguided fool who gets involved with it?

Also, I'm finished speaking with you. You can quit caring about my opinion now.

Anteros

2008-11-02, 02:01 AM

I also don't get why people are acting like this company is depriving starving children of this money. It's not like they took the money and burnt it, they just don't personally want to be represented by it. For whatever reason, that is their right.

It's not as if the money can't just be given to another less discriminate charity. Face it. People are not outraged "for the children!" they are outraged because they got snubbed.

Yarram

2008-11-02, 03:50 AM

I found this on the DnD Website in a forum.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1107905

I hope this clears up some of the abuse =P.

Dear (i removed my name), **this was the person that posted this AKA Knights_disciple

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf. Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

Sincerely,
Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising

Christian Children's Fund
2821 Emerywood Parkway
Richmond, Virginia 23294
(804) 756-2702

[email protected]
www.christianchildrensfund.org"

Kurald Galain

2008-11-02, 04:34 AM

I'm sure this has been said before, but this response by CCF does not strike me as containing an actual answer to anything; it feels like a PR coverup. They screwed up as big time as the Paypal/SA/Katrina incident, and are deservedly taking flak for it.

This is why I don't donate to charities that have an additional ideology beyond the charity itself. An organisation that helps starving children is excellent; whereas a Christian organisation that helps starving children, no matter how well-intended, tends to eventually get into a situation where the two goals end up in conflict. And then you get such organisations refusing to hire people who aren't devout enough, or refusing to work in countries where a "use condoms" message is being spread, and it gets messy.

Kurald Galain

2008-11-02, 04:36 AM

It's not as if the money can't just be given to another less discriminate charity. Face it. People are not outraged "for the children!" they are outraged because they got snubbed.

No, people are outraged because a charity organisation has an ulterior goal that conflicts with its stated mission.

KnightDisciple

2008-11-02, 04:48 AM

I found this on the DnD Website in a forum.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1107905

I hope this clears up some of the abuse =P.

FYI, I never sent CCF anything. I copied that one from this very thread. I've been cross-posting a bit.
In other words, that guy over there is me. :smallwink:

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 06:32 AM

My comment about "in this case" was intended to say- the only reason they are wrong to reject the money, is that they are wrong about D&D. Their worldview may be right in every other way (I wouldn't know) but if they feel D&D is inherently evil, they are in error. (this is in my personal opinion, however)

However, if they rejected it entirely for other reasons, thats a different issue entirely.

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 09:45 AM

And, you know what will be by far the best way of getting shamefaced apologies out of them? Forgiveness.

Big letter or petition from all the people they would normally approve of, saying- We forgive you for holding these outdated and erroneous views about our hobby, etc, etc, with numerous mentions of the children and their needs.

How does that sound?

St.Sinner

2008-11-02, 09:59 AM

Well way back when, it was in the official rulebooks that players would "ante" a random card up at the start of the game, and the winner would keep the anted cards. That's flat-out gambling, but to make things worse, there were even cards made that did things with it. For example, Demonic Attorney forced someone to add something to the ante or concede the game (giving up their already ante'd card) or a card that PERMANENTLY switched ownership of it and another card in play unless the opponent lost half of their beginning life (which would likely make them lose the game and their original anted card). One last example I need to mention is Amulet of Quoz, which, if your opponent doesn't add something to the ante, a coin is flipped to decide who wins (and thus who keeps the anted cards)

Hah haha. You know, that wouldn't surprise me. Although the reason spouted was more "dark magic" and "devil-worship" and other witch-burning mumbo-jumbo.

I'm just shocked by the selfishness and hypocrisy on display here.

So the charity didn't accept your money. Big deal. You don't know their reasons, but immediately you assumed it was a knee-jerk reaction to a bunch of propoganda published decades ago.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe- just maybe- reactions like THIS were what kept them away from a D&D related company? Pages and pages of arrogant e-mails and letters from entitled gamers who donated two bucks? Right now, they're probably congratulating themselves for not getting anymore involved with a community so ready to spew so much misguided hate.

In one week, this whole event is going to be forgotten around here, and the people over at that charity will still be doing their jobs.

Get over yourselves. Reactions like this reflect negatively on the gaming community.

The main issue is not the hurt feelings of a bunch of gamers, although it would be quite a slap in the face to have contributed towards a noble cause and then to be told your money isn't good enough. I don't really care about the misguided views members of the CCF may hold about DnD either; it is rather likely that they are ignorant about a great deal more. The issue is that they refused $17,000 that was supposed to improve the lives of needy children. In doing so they have demonstrated that they would put their ideological concerns above the welfare of the people they are meant to be caring for. That is a contemptible position for a charity to take, and not surprisingly, people reject it.

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 10:06 AM

Its not entirely new though. Don't get angry, find some other way to help.

CabbageTheif

2008-11-02, 10:14 AM

Lord Seth

2008-11-02, 10:23 AM

My apologies if I seem aggressive in this message, but your statements seem quite baffling to me.

Analogies that make no sense are awesome! And regardless, I knew nothing of Enron before or after that whole shindig went down. Did I not just say I have reasons for hating the CCF organization and every misguided fool who gets involved with it?Actually, it was a perfectly fine analogy, given that you're blaming everyone in the company for a decision a few people made.

However, as you gave no information whatsoever about your reasons for hating the entire organization, I can't actually say anything in direct response to it, which is why I mentioned the Enron thing. However, it does seem strange to me that something would make you hate every single person in an organization. Granted, if it was something like the KKK, where it's a requirement you be a nut to join it, that's something. But I see no such mentality in CCF. You don't even have to be a Christian to work in it.

You've even stated earlier that "I don't believe for a second they're helping anything." Are you honestly stating that what they've been doing--helping chileren--isn't helping ANYTHING? If you think this action or whatever incident it is you're referring to works against that, fine, but it's ridiculous to claim they're not helping anything. And how does helping out children make someone a "misguided fool"?

Also, I'm finished speaking with you. You can quit caring about my opinion now.You know, I think the attitude you've been presenting (you even describe yourself as "a very hateful and vengeful person") is actually worse than the attitude people are ascribing to the charity.

But, hey, okay, don't talk to me about it...I'll try not to infringe on your apparently extremely important hate.

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 10:31 AM

my argument was even if they made decision based on bad info, that doesn't make them bad people.

I'm not sure how convincing the whole "no endorsements" claim is.

Lord Seth

2008-11-02, 10:34 AM

The_Librarian

2008-11-02, 10:49 AM

I also received the email response Yarram has posted above and I'd like to highlight this part:

However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements.

I'm actually willing to accept that there was a miscommunication and that their policy re. endorsements clashed with the way their name might have been used at GenCon. Yes, they probably sent the same response to everyone, but to their credit they didn't label all our emails as spam (which is what I thought they would do) and they have replied in a very reasonable way.

I'm fully prepared to admit I was angry at the perceived snub as opposed to being outraged about the poor children who wouldn't receive the money. I'm also happy to admit that I no longer feel snubbed.

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 10:49 AM

Any idealogy that involves sacrificing lives of others for personal beliefs deserves very close examination and suspicion.

However, this might only apply to active sacrifice- simply Not Helping might not count.

EDIT: Endorsement bit may be true- how closely has it been examined?

CabbageTheif

2008-11-02, 11:00 AM

ok, seth, i must have missed that one.

hi librarian! havent seen you in.... years? i am barely on the forums. its good to see you!

for you and hs; we all know about the endorsing thing... from my understanding, everything was in place. EVERYTHING. and it was a last minuet decision to back out. they might say some legal mumbo jumbo, but as i understand it, the legal mj only came into effect after they found out about the d&d thing.

before=they were legally fine with endorsement being whatever it was or wasnt
after they knew= suddenly backed out, endorsement rules and regs.

and solely for HS: many religions count inaction as being as destructive as negative action. if you see a starving child you could (A) give it food (B) ignore and walk (C) kick it. good, neutral, evil. in the end of the day, neutral and evil still means the child eats nothing.

Telas

2008-11-02, 11:07 AM

CCF would have been the official charity of Gen Con, which is about as "endorsed" as you get...

As it was, the official charity was actually Fisher House. If you were at Indy this year, you probably saw that name a few times. I noticed it simply because my wife and I normally give to Fisher House.

Attempting to divine the intentions of CCF by relying on stereotypes is about as ridiculous as calling D&D demonic.

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 11:08 AM

Very good analogy. But a neutral act, while certainly not be be admired, is also difficult to condemn.

Lets try another one- you are "shopping for charities" that help the starving. you meet one, chat to it, tell them you'll come back with the money.

While away, you rethink and do some research- the charity has an idealogy you personally don't like.

You return and say "I'm sorry, I cannot support your idealogy by giving you the money I informally promised."

You go out and give the money to another Help The Starving charity you do not object to.

If the first charity were to condemn you, it wouldn't have a moral leg to stand on.

So, why not in reverse?

Telas

2008-11-02, 11:09 AM

from my understanding, everything was in place. EVERYTHING. and it was a last minuet decision to back out. they might say some legal mumbo jumbo, but as i understand it, the legal mj only came into effect after they found out about the d&d thing.

before=they were legally fine with endorsement being whatever it was or wasnt
after they knew= suddenly backed out, endorsement rules and regs.

Do you have linkage to share? I'm not questioning the validity of your statement, but I've been digging on teh intarwebz for over an hour and haven't seen that yet.

Thanks.

CabbageTheif

2008-11-02, 12:57 PM

no linkeys, and i know that the validity of my statement is questionable. i just dont think that rich burlew would have reacted the way he did if it was as simple as an endorsement issue.

using inference, not info. thats why i started the statement with 'as i understand it'.

we will all look very silly if it turns out that rich was wrong, though. so what if we get linkeys from him?

hamishspence

2008-11-02, 01:07 PM

my view is, a petition, to the charity, asking them if similar donation thing comes up, to accept it, might help.

Maybe two.

First should be solely Christian and strong christian- ministers etc, saying how they feel "Immoral D&D" arguments are wrong.

Second should be everyone else, saving they have a lot of goodwill for starving children and it would be a pity to reject it merely because of ideological differences.

Both should be phrased as politely as possible.

It won't fix money issue- already sent elsewhere, but it might shame them into rethinking.

If its a misunderstanding and it really is endorsement issue, ok, but if they know just how many ministers and parishioners approve of D&D, they might come down in favour of donations, next time.

wxdruid

2008-11-02, 01:32 PM

Made it onto the Fark.com list

(Some half-elf paladin) Christian Children's Fund charity refuses $17,000 in donations. Why? They were from Dungeons and Dragons players

The link goes directly to Rich Burlew's statement on the news page.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-02, 01:56 PM

we will all look very silly if it turns out that rich was wrong, though. so what if we get linkeys from him?
Well, the news page does link to a report from GenCon (http://www.livegameauctions.com/CharityAuction.jsp), which gives the impression that its more than an endorsement issue. Of course, the folks that wrote the report likely have the same wariness as most of the people on this thread regarding the motives organizations with the word "Christian" in their name with respect to role-playing games. So I'm not going to write that source off as impartial.

Daimbert

2008-11-02, 02:02 PM

Okay, having read through most of the posts and the various sources -- including the form letter replies -- here is what I think is the most likely scenario for what happened:

GenCon approached CCF and mentioned that they were going to do the fundraising for them, and implied that doing so would include certain "publication" or a standing with respect to the convention. As others have said here, that seems to have included an "official charity of" designation.

CCF read that, took that as a sponsorship request, and replied that they have strict rules as to that sort of thing and so could not accept that standing, at least. There was likely NO hint that they would not accept the money, just that they could not accept being published as an sort of sponsor of the convention (for various reasons that they likely didn't state, but probably didn't have much to do with D&D at all).

The GenCon people got the message and thought "Why can't they be associated in that manner with us?" and jumped to a conclusion -- not unreasonable -- that this had to do with some rather well-known Christian views about D&D. And then decided that if they were going to refuse to be associated with them because of D&D that they'd find another sponsor that they could make the "official charity". Which they did.

CCF was likely unaware of the change and possibly even expecting the donation until they got E-mails asking why they refused the donation, which they had never done.

See, one point that hasn't really been teased out is that you DON'T need the permission of the charity to hold a fundraiser for them (technically). You can take up a collection at any event and say "Proceeds will go to X charity" (it's done a lot at funerals in lieu of sending flowers). But publishing this in direct association with an event needs to be approved, and all charities have rules about this. So running an auction and giving the proceeds to the CCF wouldn't have been a problem unless GenCon wanted to advertise the CCF connection quite prominently, which they seemed to want to do. And the CCF said "No.".

So can we all drop the over-reaction and accept that there's likely a misunderstanding here, and let the people work it out without insisting that it was done for religious reasons and that the CCF hates D&D and the people who play it?

powerdemon

2008-11-02, 02:09 PM

Daimbert

2008-11-02, 02:38 PM

It's not an overreaction. We are all acting on the info given to us which was that they denied the donation because of the DnD products involved. Our reactions are based on the information given, not what the real information may be since we don't know for sure what happened.

But you should have seen the form letter responses by now from the CCF. Are you still basing your reaction on simply what Rich posted which does not seem to be the message the CCF was trying to convey?

That's the over-reaction I'm trying to quash.

powerdemon

2008-11-02, 03:02 PM

Daimbert

2008-11-02, 03:07 PM

I sent my email back on the first page of this thread. A lot of people haven't read the entirety of this thread and are going off of the news post. I've read both responses and the last one does shed a lot of light on the situation, though it still seems to leave some holes.

True, many people are overacting. I concede that point.

Well, let me make my statement a little clearer: I agree that, based solely on what Rich said, the reactions are not unjustified. But now that we've seen more responses and have more information, to maintain that reaction is over-reaction.

Raging Gene Ray

2008-11-02, 03:12 PM

CCF read that, took that as a sponsorship request, and replied that they have strict rules as to that sort of thing and so could not accept that standing, at least.

I'm thinking that CCF may have turned down the sponsorship because they found out part of the money would be from sales of D&D products, and, theoretically, every vendor and manufacturer involved in the sale of those products could claim tax exempt status on the grounds that "We gave a portion of our profits to charity. Just ask our official sponsor, CCF!"

This would have been true if they found out the money was being raised by the sale of candy bars, magazine subscriptions, or anything else and is probably the reason behind other such regulations that many other charities have.

CCF has come under fire for NOT overtly promoting religion, so that's more evidence that this was not because of religious bias.

It seems that they just want to help children without encouraging tax fraud and are having their reputation ground up by the rumor mill.

powerdemon

2008-11-02, 03:16 PM

I Agree with that statement Daimbert.

Telas

2008-11-02, 04:29 PM

Check out Auction_God's Comment on the Gen Con forums: http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/18751.aspx

CCF refused to be the official charity of GenCon *BEFORE* the convention. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

GenCon's official charity was Fisher House so it's not like they turned down the money after we had raised it.

Lord Seth

2008-11-02, 04:32 PM

I'm sure this has been said before, but this response by CCF does not strike me as containing an actual answer to anything; it feels like a PR coverup. They screwed up as big time as the Paypal/SA/Katrina incident, and are deservedly taking flak for it.Given that the whole thing happened a while ago, I'm guessing they were surprised to have such a sudden blow-up about it. If the form letter that says that the charity's leader wasn't available is true, (and it should also be noted this is the weekend, where there would probably be fewer people around anyway), it's possible that they just tried to put a good form e-mail together as a band-aid until they could prepare a public statement.

This is why I don't donate to charities that have an additional ideology beyond the charity itself. An organisation that helps starving children is excellent; whereas a Christian organisation that helps starving children, no matter how well-intended, tends to eventually get into a situation where the two goals end up in conflict. And then you get such organisations refusing to hire people who aren't devout enough, or refusing to work in countries where a "use condoms" message is being spread, and it gets messy.I'm not certain not hiring people because they're not "devout" enough is bad as long as they make sure they get decent people and aren't shorted, but what charities have actually refused to work in countries where a "use condoms" message (or another message they dislike) is being spread?

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-02, 04:57 PM

I'm thinking that CCF may have turned down the sponsorship because they found out part of the money would be from sales of D&D products, and, theoretically, every vendor and manufacturer involved in the sale of those products could claim tax exempt status on the grounds that "We gave a portion of our profits to charity. Just ask our official sponsor, CCF!"
Uh, no. You cannot claim tax exempt status in any way by making a donation. You have to be entirely non-profit yourself. No ifs about that.

However, you may be able to make certain deductions.

I'm not certain not hiring people because they're not "devout" enough is bad as long as they make sure they get decent people and aren't shorted, but what charities have actually refused to work in countries where a "use condoms" message (or another message they dislike) is being spread?
I don't know about specific charities, but it has been a political issue regarding certain foreign aid programs. I'm not going to say any more on account of the "no politics" rules.

Anteros

2008-11-02, 05:25 PM

i am calling anteros and birdface out on being trolls.

either that or they has not read the full thing. anteros did not realize that the giant was in on this, he was 4 posts away from my post describing exactly what I hoped to get out of the letters (and it would behoove birdface to read it, as well) and, as a person who has been posting since page... 2 or 3, i cant recall any attacks on christianity itself. maybe on them for being silly christians (replace silly with any number of negative descriptors) but the fact of the matter is, describing them as silly is true, and describing them as christian is true. i have not once felt insulted by this thread, and i know other christians posting here will agree.

chill guys, any issue that may or may not be here is being exasperated by your rash posting.

I'm a troll for disagreeing with you, and being upset that people are bashing my religion. That's a very unique definition of troll you have there. I already provided about six or seven very innapropriate quotations from people in this thread in order to back my point, but by all means continue to call me a troll. Anyone who disagrees with you or gets upset by what you say is obviously a troll. :smallsigh:

The Giant directly asked people to not involve religion in this. As a result, I would expect them to not involve religion in this. When they ignore this request, I would expect the moderators to step in.

I post here quite often and enjoy it here. You'll note that by far the largest number of my posts are not argumentative, and you have no right to call me a troll. Personally, I would like to be able to continue posting here without seeing my religion insulted every few posts.

pepebe

2008-11-02, 05:36 PM

I didn't have the time to read through all those posts, so I beg your apologize if somebody already pointed to this:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=128170

"Dear (i removed my name),

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf. Please know that we take your email very seriously.

There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.

We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.

The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at http://www.christianchildrensfund.org.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.

Sincerely,
Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising

Christian Children's Fund
2821 Emerywood Parkway
Richmond, Virginia 23294
(804) 756-2702

[email protected]
http://www.christianchildrensfund.org"

Well, I don't know if we can trust this quotation (you never now these days...), but from my point of view I can't see anything wrong about the whole thing. If people at Gen Con and/or christianchildrensfund weren't able (or willing) to negotiate through this thing, both parties were right. Gen Con propably wanted to use the donation for some marketing actions while the christianchildrensfund had concerns about their name and reputation being used for exactly that purpose.

Nothing to get wild about, realy. So please calm down, call some of your friends and dive into some decent dnd...

Regards,

pepebe

Mr. Moon

2008-11-02, 05:42 PM

I have no problem with the Giant himself, because I can see where he is asking people not to say such things, but I have lost a great, great deal of respect for both our moderators and the community of this board.

Forgive me, for this will sound rude. However, when people post things like this, I get confused.

If you feel this way, then why are you even still here? :smallconfused: If you don't like the forum, leave. Simple as that.

Although you do raise a good point, and I can understand why you're feeling attacked.

Guys, please, leave religon out of this, as much as possible. Or at least try not to sound baised - not all Christians are right-wing. And there are several here. Remember what your mother told you - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". It's good advice, you should take it. (Bolded for eye-catchy-ness)

Edit: Pepebe, I don't think you should trust that one - it's a form letter. They made it longer, true, but it's nothing less then a laugh.

Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf. Please know that we take your email very seriously.

So, Anne Goddard read all our emails, and took them serriously? Suuuure.

Anteros

2008-11-02, 05:50 PM

Forgive me, for this will sound rude. However, when people post things like this, I get confused.

If you feel this way, then why are you even still here? :smallconfused: If you don't like the forum, leave. Simple as that.

Although you do raise a good point, and I can understand why you're feeling attacked.

The thing is that I do enjoy posting here very much, and until this incident nothing like this has ever occured. That's why I am posting here, asking people to clean this up. Otherwise, yes, I will be forced to stop posting here. And that would be a shame.

CabbageTheif

2008-11-02, 06:39 PM

Check out Auction_God's Comment on the Gen Con forums: http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/18751.aspx

i think that makes it more specific, yes. so, it was not a last minuet thing. we still dont know their exact motives, but i doubt we ever will.

personally, if you havent sent a letter yet i am all for sending one now just to get the point across (see my post on page six to know what the 'point' is) and call it a day.

and anteros, i suppose i used slang that not everyone would understand and for that i apologize. a troll is someone who says things only to try and get a rise out of other people. a common way to do that is to jump on a thread and disagree strongly with the mainstream argument. so, since you are sincere, no you are not a troll. i still find you brash and abrasive.

itsmeyouidiot

2008-11-02, 07:07 PM

I'm kinda surprised that people still bash D&D for this sort of thing.

I honestly thought violent videogames were our new cultural scapegoat these days.

Anteros

2008-11-02, 07:21 PM

i think that makes it more specific, yes. so, it was not a last minuet thing. we still dont know their exact motives, but i doubt we ever will.

personally, if you havent sent a letter yet i am all for sending one now just to get the point across (see my post on page six to know what the 'point' is) and call it a day.

and anteros, i suppose i used slang that not everyone would understand and for that i apologize. a troll is someone who says things only to try and get a rise out of other people. a common way to do that is to jump on a thread and disagree strongly with the mainstream argument. so, since you are sincere, no you are not a troll. i still find you brash and abrasive.

That's fair enough. Reading several pages of people insulting my religion in a place I come to relax tends to make me brash and abrasive, for which I apologize. But I am no less upset.

Lupy

2008-11-02, 09:58 PM

Guys, please, leave religon out of this, as much as possible. Or at least try not to sound baised - not all Christians are right-wing. And there are several here. Remember what your mother told you - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". It's good advice, you should take it. (Bolded for eye-catchy-ness)

Thank you Moon_Called. I second this. (And would like to say that not all conservatives still support feudalism. :smalltongue: )

ducktape74

2008-11-02, 10:11 PM

Anteros

2008-11-02, 11:16 PM

"I'm glad to know that your charity is doing so well that you can now pick and choose who you accept money from. I guess the children that our money would have benefited can survive on your moral superiority."

Because there are no other charities in the world and now we're just going to have to throw all that money away. Yup. No other possible way to get that money to the children. Oh well.

I should note that I agree with everyone that this charity should not turn this money down (although we don't even know their reasons.) But people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Killersquid

2008-11-03, 01:12 AM

I'm kinda surprised that people still bash D&D for this sort of thing.

I honestly thought violent videogames were our new cultural scapegoat these days.

That's not what they think. They rejected the donations based on a purely business point, and a very idiotic point at that.

_Zoot_

2008-11-03, 02:56 AM

I find it sad that what started as something that the forums were all in agreement on has turned into something that has made people consider leaving them:smallfrown:

i think that there were probably formalities that stopped the money from being accepted by CCF, I think that it may have been a bad idea for them to not except it because of the bad image that it seems to be giving them, but i really doubt that it was because it had any thing to do with the fact that the money came partly from sales of D&D. I hope that most people will have accepted that we are not a bunch of Satanists and that there is no need to fear any money we give to charity, i hope......

Koshiro

2008-11-03, 05:00 AM

How so? If I was a charity or organization and did something, and got a lot of angry e-mails about it, I wouldn't bother responding to each one individually and would just make one form e-mail and send it in response.
Yep. Plus, if they wrote individual emails, there would now be flames about flip-flopping etc. etc.

Btw, did it ever occur to anybody that furiously denouncing Gary Gygax' favorite charity may not exactly be the best way to honor the memory of Gary Gygax?

Daimbert

2008-11-03, 07:43 AM

That's not what they think. They rejected the donations based on a purely business point, and a very idiotic point at that.

Could we please start responding based on the clarifications that we now KNOW are the case?

1) There is no evidence that the CCF rejected the donations. As was pointed out in the cited post the CCF simply rejected being the official charity of GenCon. GenCon then went with another charity and gave the money to them instead. From the form letter, CCF weren't even aware that they weren't going to get the donation until people E-mailed them asking why they rejected them.

2) CCF is totally within its rights to decide what events they feel they can officially sponsor. This incurs no moral or logical sanction. It would be nice if the CCF would state what the reason was, but that they haven't yet done that is not reason to assume what it was.

I think that Rich should update the news post with the new information. Leaving it as is just encourages more people to react strongly to the issue when the reality is not as stated.

KnightDisciple

2008-11-03, 08:53 AM

Could we please start responding based on the clarifications that we now KNOW are the case?

1) There is no evidence that the CCF rejected the donations. As was pointed out in the cited post the CCF simply rejected being the official charity of GenCon. GenCon then went with another charity and gave the money to them instead. From the form letter, CCF weren't even aware that they weren't going to get the donation until people E-mailed them asking why they rejected them.

2) CCF is totally within its rights to decide what events they feel they can officially sponsor. This incurs no moral or logical sanction. It would be nice if the CCF would state what the reason was, but that they haven't yet done that is not reason to assume what it was.

I think that Rich should update the news post with the new information. Leaving it as is just encourages more people to react strongly to the issue when the reality is not as stated.

This. Please, Giant, change the news post. Right now it simply stirs up bad feelings without us even being sure of what occured. It's a bit unfair to CCF, at least as far as our understanding from current information goes.

Shhalahr Windrider

2008-11-03, 09:32 AM

Because there are no other charities in the world and now we're just going to have to throw all that money away. Yup. No other possible way to get that money to the children. Oh well.
Well, maybe no other way to get the money to the children specifically being aided by the CCF. It's not like every impoverished children's charity reaches every single impoverished child and simply splits the load.

Not that there's anything practical we can do about that. Just a thought.

Btw, did it ever occur to anybody that furiously denouncing Gary Gygax' favorite charity may not exactly be the best way to honor the memory of Gary Gygax?
Of course, depending on what happened, there's always the possibility that if Gygax were still alive, it might no longer be his favorite charity. Just because Gygax thought highly of this charity in his life doesn't mean it was as good an organization as he thought it was.

In any case, many people have taken this as an insult to Gygax. That it was from his favorite charity only makes the idea all the more abhorrent. Of course they're gonna denounce it now.

I think I'm going to wait and see if we can get more specific reasoning from the CCF before forming an opinion. They've only given us the reasoning of some vague, unnamed criteria that GenCon allegedly failed to meet. They've been dodging a full explanation so far. Not that this is a bad thing. It takes time to generate an official response on an organizational level. They probably need Ms. Goddard to approve of any specific details for release, and we have no idea where she is and if she is in a position to handle this yet.

So I'm just gonna wait 'n' see.

Talic

2008-11-03, 09:47 AM

2) CCF is totally within its rights to decide what events they feel they can officially sponsor. This incurs no moral or logical sanction. It would be nice if the CCF would state what the reason was, but that they haven't yet done that is not reason to assume what it was.

Incorrect, if only due to a flawed premise.

Dictionary.com, definition of sponsor:
1. a person who vouches or is responsible for a person or thing.
2. a person, firm, organization, etc., that finances and buys the time to broadcast a radio or television program so as to advertise a product, a political party, etc.
3. a person who makes a pledge or promise on behalf of another.
4. a person who answers for an infant at baptism, making the required professions and assuming responsibility for the child's religious upbringing; godfather or godmother.

CCF is neither vouching for, nor responsible for Gen Con. This usage is generally used with, say, when you sponsor a child with Big Brother/Big Sister, or something of that sort. 1. is out.
2. They're not financing and buying time to broadcast a message. That's out.
3. They're making no pledges or promises on behalf of another.
4. And this has no bearing on godparents.

No, when sponsor is used, they are not sponsoring. They are BEING sponsored. Gencon offered to make a pledge, on behalf of the CCF. A pledge to donate money. Gen Con saw the aims of the organization, and, out of respect for Gary Gygax, and the CCF, offered to pledge a donation, and sponsor the organization's goals. Gen Con offered to further the CCF's mission.

And the CCF refused to allow Gen Con to do that.

Make no mistake, saying "Charity Sponsor" is misleading. It's actually "charity sponsored", except that, in ADDITION to receiving a donation of money, they also receive a donation of time, and of advertisement. Gen Con not only tried to give this organization money, but also tried to spread the word that the CCF was a good cause.

And the CCF told Gen Con that they could not do it. Because they were so afraid of their name being tarnished, that they were willing to turn aside aid to protect their name. They were willing to sacrifice their mission, their professed fundamental driving goal, in order to seperate themselves from ideologies they did not agree with... Even when those ideologies pretty much said, "yeah, we have our differences, but you are doing something noble and worthy, and we want to help you accomplish that. because, you know, some things are more important."

Evidently, there is nothing more important than the CCF's seperationist attitude, and desire to wash their hands of anyone they don't agree with.

KnightDisciple

2008-11-03, 09:53 AM

Do you actually know for certain that's why this occured?

Lord Seth

2008-11-03, 09:54 AM

Because they were so afraid of their name being tarnished, that they were willing to turn aside aid to protect their name. They were willing to sacrifice their mission, their professed fundamental driving goal, in order to seperate themselves from ideologies they did not agree with...Except even the sole original source saying they pulled out because of D&D didn't say they quit because they "disagreed" with D&D. That's a conclusion a lot of people jumped to, it seems.

Also, for the record, the word they used in their form letter response were "endorse", not "sponsor", meaning they choose not to "endorse" it. Not sure if this makes a big difference, but if we're going to get semantic, I feel I should point that out.

Milanius

2008-11-03, 01:04 PM

I'd really hate to burst collective bubbles here, but...

...you're not going to change anything.

I once believed that nature of a man can be changed*, but that was before I got broken into pieces. Now I see things as they are. The smart thing to do, instead of sending letters that will end up in someone's Recycle Bin and instill more anger in all of you who chose to put effort into battling a lost cause [i.e., changing fundamentalist's views], is this:

The only plan I see here is to simply withdraw support and funnel it to other charities. I realize that's hard to do for anyone not financially capable of supporting in the first place, but the fact is, all the angry emails in the world are unlikely to produce results other than catharsis for the writer. Well, it might get whoever made this decision fired, but that's probably about it. The money has already been donated elsewhere, so the horse has left the barn.

If someone doesn't want your money, shrug, turn and leave him/her to their own. Don't waste your strength or nerves. There are literally millions of charities out there, and most of them are more open-minded.

*Planescape:Torment, and my answer was "Love". I was dumb back then.

Talic

2008-11-03, 01:07 PM

Sponsor was used by the Gen Con.

They informed the CCF they would like to make them the Charity sponsor, the sponsored charity of the event.

As for the "we have a lot of respect..." etc etc.

It is very easy to send such a letter in the form of private correspondence. When they rejected $17,000, there's gotta be a good reason. I mean, that's not a trivial amount.

And yet, all we've seen for an explanation is that it was against "policy". A vague, non-answer. It doesn't explain what policy. Why. It seems like an organization which is having its actions questioned vehemently, that was in possession of a good reason, would be forthright and present such.

I mean, if there was insufficient time to process the request, that's an easy enough answer that they could have gave, rather than being a random guess from a random person on a random website.

Heck, even if they said, "we're sorry, but accepting this donation would cause numerous christian donors to back out, due to the somewhat controversial nature of your game in those circles. As such, we cannot allow that stigma to reflect ill upon us. We respect your game, your views, and, for the record, we have no problem with it. However, supporting your event would have alienated us from many donations that would help children. We wish you good luck in your efforts, but we have our own battles to fight."

That would have been fine. It has a ring of truth to it.

But this "unspecified policies" as an answer? Explanations that don't EXPLAIN anything sound suspiciously like a load of horse manure. At least, in my circles, they do.

And if someone's trying to shovel that my way, it raises the question... what are they trying to hide, that they'd send this poo in its place?

Except even the sole original source saying they pulled out because of D&D didn't say they quit because they "disagreed" with D&D. That's a conclusion a lot of people jumped to, it seems.

Unfortunately, when they found out that the money they would get came partially from sales of Dungeons and Dragons they decided not to be the sponsored charity.

Nuff said.

Lord Seth

2008-11-03, 01:46 PM

It is very easy to send such a letter in the form of private correspondence. When they rejected $17,000, there's gotta be a good reason. I mean, that's not a trivial amount.As has been stated and shown, THIS WAS BEFORE THE MONEY WAS RAISED. They were not rejecting $17,000 because there was no $17,000 at the time!

Except even the sole original source saying they pulled out because of D&D didn't say they quit because they "disagreed" with D&D. That's a conclusion a lot of people jumped to, it seems.

Unfortunately, when they found out that the money they would get came partially from sales of Dungeons and Dragons they decided not to be the sponsored charity.
Nuff said.Why do our forums not give automatic quote trees? Sure, quote trees can get annoying when overused, but it's annoying to have to manually put quotes from your message into mine, especially because without said quotes it doesn't make sense, and I'm just responding to "Nuff said."

Also, how does the quote invalidate what I said? I said that quote did not say it was because they thought D&D was dangerous or anything, it just says it was because of D&D (and that is assuming said source is accurate and didn't misunderstand anything). That could have a lot more to do with worrying about losing potential donors than actually disliking D&D itself. It looks like the big thing wasn't the receiving of the money, it was the public endorsement/sponsorship/whatever-the-word-is of the event.

I'm not sure I really managed to explain that well, but the point is at no point does even that quote (which is apparently the only source for their supposed rejection due to the D&D connection) state that it was because they disliked D&D.

KnightDisciple

2008-11-03, 01:51 PM

Of course, that original source is possibly biased.
Oh, offhand, has anyone considered that the bulk of these emails have been sent over the weekend? I'm amazed they had the staffing to make up two different form letters; they may still be working on a more detailed explanation.

You know what I'm starting to see here? The flip side of what everyone is accusing this organization of. Just because they have "Christian" in the name, you all assume that the only motivating factor for this incident was the sale of D&D, because after all, these people must think it's "Satan's Game". No other possible explanation. Let's bash them and stuff, dudes!

Incidentally, I don't know if this question ever got answered:
Is D&D (or rather, D&D, D20 Modern, Star Wars RPG, Pathfinder, and directly related/derivative products) the only game sold/talked about/played officially at Gen Con? Or are there other products (like, say...FATAL) that may have more directly objectionable content that they did not wish to be associated with? Or is this, in fact, merely a combination of miscommunication, and specific/complicated rules on endorsements, sponsorships, nature of gifts, etc. ?

Edit: to reinforce what Seth is saying: THERE WAS NO SPECIFIC AMOUNT RAISED AT THE TIME THEY MADE THIS DECISION.

MageLeif

2008-11-03, 01:58 PM

Yeah. It's a Christian charity.

To be honest. I am a Christian, and I see very little of what's wrong in Dungeons and Dragons. Sure, there is the worshiping of other deities, but stuff like that I just leave out when I'm playing with my friends. They understand as well. And as for worshiping demons and such... People who accuse DnD players of that are completly wrong. You are the GOOD GUYS in DnD (at least, most of the time unless you do "evil" campaigns). You are trying to DESTROY them!

And another thing is, I remember when Harry Potter was getting criticized. Once people realize it's not that bad, they accept it. Every once in a while I see a Harry Potter book in one of the pews at my church, or somebody reading a Harry Potter book.

Pokemon too was criticized. Not anymore.

One of the main reasons due to this criticisim is "There is magic in it! And magic is bad! Magic is sorcery! Sorcery is devil worshiping!". No... Incorrect. What about the so called "Magical World of Disney"?! I see no relations whatsoever between Disney and devil worshiping! Unless Mickey Mouse is really the Anti-Christ.

And magic is not always "sorcery". Magic can be like a science. If you have ever read the latest book of Artemis Fowl, it would more sense on what I'm getting at right here.

Daimbert

2008-11-03, 02:26 PM

Incorrect, if only due to a flawed premise.

Dictionary.com, definition of sponsor:

CCF is neither vouching for, nor responsible for Gen Con. This usage is generally used with, say, when you sponsor a child with Big Brother/Big Sister, or something of that sort. 1. is out.
2. They're not financing and buying time to broadcast a message. That's out.
3. They're making no pledges or promises on behalf of another.
4. And this has no bearing on godparents.

No, when sponsor is used, they are not sponsoring.

You are focussing on the wrong word. Sponsor is not the big issue; OFFICIAL is. They would have been the official charity of GenCon and listed in the brochures, materials, and advertisments as such. That is them giving official "status" to their association with Gen Con. They didn't feel that they could do that. They have not said what that reason is yet, but they don't have to (and some charities do not give out that criteria for any reason). You cannot assume that it was because they didn't want to be associated with D&D, since you haven't a clue.

And the CCF told Gen Con that they could not do it. Because they were so afraid of their name being tarnished, that they were willing to turn aside aid to protect their name. They were willing to sacrifice their mission, their professed fundamental driving goal, in order to seperate themselves from ideologies they did not agree with... Even when those ideologies pretty much said, "yeah, we have our differences, but you are doing something noble and worthy, and we want to help you accomplish that. because, you know, some things are more important."

Evidently, there is nothing more important than the CCF's seperationist attitude, and desire to wash their hands of anyone they don't agree with.

There is no evidence that the CCF was not going to take the donation. They didn't want to be listed as the official charity of Gen Con. Right now, based on that, I'm more upset with Gen Con getting pissed off because the CCF has rules that didn't allow Gen Con to broadcast their "nobleness" than the CCF for following their own rules.

And, again, you have no clue what their reasons were. You have no reason to claim that the original comment that linked it directly to D&D is anything other than an interpretation of the participants.