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RMS Oceanic
2008-10-31, 05:27 AM
I was intrigued by a set of gloves in the Magic Item Compendium, which allows one to make as many +1 Javelins as they want as a free action. After confirming these could be used in conjunction with Two-Weapon fighting, I hit on the idea of a guy who could deal death with six or seven javelins a round up to 30 feet.

Does anyone have recommendations for how I could build this guy, apart from the gloves? I'm thinking a fighter, with the two-weapon fighting branch, and stuff like rapid shot, point blank shot, far shot and maybe brutal throw and power attack/throw.

only1doug
2008-10-31, 06:14 AM
Master Thrower PRC

Hit Die: d8.
REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a master thrower, a character must
fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Sleight of Hand 4 ranks.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any
thrown weapon Javlin).

RMS Oceanic
2008-10-31, 06:21 AM
I don't have access to my books ATM: could you remind me about its benefits?

Quietus
2008-10-31, 06:30 AM
Make sure you fit Quick Draw in there no matter what. Otherwise, it's a move action to draw each javelin.

RMS Oceanic
2008-10-31, 06:36 AM
I'll probably take quick draw, and have one or two javelins that are +5, but the gloves I'm talking about conjures a +1 javelin into your hand as a free action.

only1doug
2008-10-31, 06:43 AM
Human Javlin thrower of doom

Fighter 3 / rogue 3 / master thrower 5

L1 Fighter: (for HPs) Point blank shot, Precise shot, Brutal Throw
L1 Rogue: +1d6 sneak attack, trapfinding
L2 Rogue: Evasion, Rapid Shot
L3 Rogue: +2d6 sneak attack, trap sense +1
L2 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Javelin)
L3 Fighter: Two weapon fighting
L1 Master Thrower: quick draw, 1st thrown weapon trick
L2 Master Thrower: Improved Evasion
L3 Master Thrower: 2nd thrown weapon trick, Improved Two weapon fighting or Manyshot (needs GM approval to apply to thrown weapons)
L4 Master Thrower: snatch arrows
L5 Master Thrower: Critical throw, 3rd thrown weapon trick

Thrown Weapon Trick (Ex): At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, a master thrower chooses one of the following thrown weapon tricks.

Once chosen, the trick is a permanent part of the master thrower’s repertoire and may not be exchanged. A master thrower cannot choose the same trick more than once.

Each trick may only be used with a thrown weapon for which the character has taken Weapon Focus.

Deadeye Shot: The critical multiplier for any specific type of thrown weapon increases by one (for example, a hand axe has a critical multiplier of ×4 instead of ×3) when this ability is used.
The benefit of this ability does not stack with any other effect that increases critical multipliers.

Defensive Throw: If a master thrower with this ability succeeds on a Concentration check (DC 10 + number of threatening foes) before attempting to attack with a thrown weapon while in a threatened square, her thrown weapon attacks don’t provoke attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
If the check fails, her opponents get attacks of opportunity as normal when she makes her attacks.

Doubletoss: A master thrower with this ability may, as a standard action, throw two weapons at one or two targets within 30 feet. The character may apply her full Strength bonus to each weapon (instead of one-half her Strength bonus for the offhand weapon).
The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply (see page 160 of the Player’s Handbook).

Palm Throw: When using little thrown weapons (darts, shuriken, and daggers; the DM may allow other weapons), a master thrower with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll.
Damage for each weapon is resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to either damage roll.

Sneaky Shot: Just before making a ranged attack, a master thrower with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target’s Spot check. If she wins the opposed check, her opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack.

Trip Shot: A master thrower with this ability may use a thrown weapon to make a trip attempt against an opponent farther than 5 feet away. The character makes a normal attack against the opponent with a thrown weapon. If the attack succeeds, in addition to doing damage as normal, the master thrower makes a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by the opponent’s Dexterity check or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier).
Other modifiers may apply on this opposed check (see page 158 of the Player’s Handbook). If the master thrower wins the opposed check, the opponent is tripped. The benefit of this ability does not stack with the benefit of the Improved Trip feat.

Tumbling Toss: When wearing light, medium, or no armor, a master thrower with this ability can hurl a single thrown weapon at any point during a tumbling attempt as a standard action.
If the result of her Tumble check is 25 or higher, the master thrower does not provoke an attack of opportunity for making this attack regardless of how many opponents threaten her.

Two with One Blow: If a master thrower with this ability uses a thrown weapon to attack two opponents adjacent to each other, she may take a –4 penalty on the attack roll and attempt to hit both opponents at once.
The attack may hit either, both, or neither opponent depending on the roll and the Armor Class of each opponent. Damage for each opponent is resolved separately. If the attack roll results in the threat of a critical hit, roll to confirm each critical hit separately.

Weak Spot: A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level.When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to the damage.

If you want more feats you could drop the sneak attack damage for the rogue alternate class feature that gives you fighter feat progression (i personally wouldn't)

If making this build with a race that doesn't have Rogue, Fighter or (Any) as its favored class swap L4 with L5 to avoid multiclass penalties.

High Dex is essential for accuracy and feat prerequisites, high strength for damage.

Edit: removed far shot in exchange for Brutal Throw.

Johel
2008-10-31, 07:15 AM
For the magic item
I don't know this magical item but you sure can do as good as it with 6 Javeline+1 "Return". Basically, you have 3 javelines on each of your sides, you take and throw them one after another, then catch back two of them and pick up the next 4 after throwing again the first 2.


Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).
Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.
Just compare so you can choose the easier and less expansive.
2.301 gp for one Javeline which dealt (1d6+1+Str) damage and return in your hand, So that's 13 806 gp for the whole package. :smallsmile:

For the character
Fighter level10 with starting abilities of Str 14+, Dext 16+
Books : SRD and nothing else

1st
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING + QUICK DRAW
2nd
POINT BLANK SHOT
3rd
RAPID SHOT
4th
+1 Dext
DODGE
6th
MOBILITY + (IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING) or (MANYSHOT)*
8th
+1 Dext
9th
(FAR SHOT)** or (PRECISE SHOT)
10th
IMPROVED INITIATIVE

Not-fighter levels with important things***
12th
+1 Str
SHOT ON THE RUN
16th
+1 Str
20th
+1 Dext
IMPROVED PRECISE SHOT

*The feat speaks of "arrows", not of "attacks". You might want to ask your GM if he concider "arrows" = "attacks" for this feat. If he doesn't, take Improved T-W.
** Double your range so it means More Dakka.
***Take what class you want. You're already wel built at level 10. Just take the Str and Dext bonus, as well as the two feats written.

RMS Oceanic
2008-10-31, 07:22 AM
Your math is wrong. A +1 Returning Javelin is like a +2 Javelin - 8,000 gp a pop. This Magic item is, if memory serves, 13,000 GP, so it's a better investment in that terms.

And I've checked in the Rules Thread: Manyshot applies to arrows only, so that's moot. One of the Master Thrower tricks allows me to throw two at once as a standard action, though, so that's good.

It seems there's a lot of ways I could go with this. It may be better suited as a Gestalt character to maximize the benefits...

only1doug
2008-10-31, 07:30 AM
Sneaky Shot: Just before making a ranged attack, a master thrower with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target’s Spot check. If she wins the opposed check, her opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack.

The rogue’s sneak attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC. (within 30' (which also gives +1 to hit and damage from pointblank shot)

only1doug
2008-10-31, 07:39 AM
Your math is wrong. A +1 Returning Javelin is like a +2 Javelin - 8,000 gp a pop. This Magic item is, if memory serves, 13,000 GP, so it's a better investment in that terms.

And I've checked in the Rules Thread: Manyshot applies to arrows only, so that's moot. One of the Master Thrower tricks allows me to throw two at once as a standard action, though, so that's good.

It seems there's a lot of ways I could go with this. It may be better suited as a Gestalt character to maximize the benefits...

Pg 194 MIC, Gloves of endless javelins: Create temporary +1 javelins 7K Gp

Cheaper than 1 returning Javelin.

When you activate these gloves, a +1 javelin made of pure force appears in your hand.
A javelin created by the gloves lasts until you resolve an attack with it or until the end of your turn, whichever comes first.

Free action to activate.

Doesn't indicate that you can create multiple with one free action, GM may object to multiple free actions (or may not).
If I were GMing I would allow this item to work as you want it to.

only1doug
2008-10-31, 07:58 AM
Thrown Weapon Tricks,
We have 3 from master thrower, so lets get picky:

Deadeye Shot: The critical multiplier for any specific type of thrown weapon increases by one (Javelin has a critical multiplier of ×3 instead of ×2) when this ability is used.
only crit on a 20 (19-20 at L5 of master thrower), maybe OK.

Defensive Throw: If a master thrower with this ability succeeds on a Concentration check (DC 10 + number of threatening foes) before attempting to attack with a thrown weapon while in a threatened square, her thrown weapon attacks don’t provoke attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Pros: still get your throws in
Cons: requires concentration skill

Doubletoss: A master thrower with this ability may, as a standard action, throw two weapons at one or two targets within 30 feet. The character may apply her full Strength bonus to each weapon (instead of one-half her Strength bonus for the offhand weapon).
The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply (see page 160 of the Player’s Handbook). Looks nice but gets penalties.

Palm Throw: When using little thrown weapons (darts, shuriken, and daggers; the DM may allow other weapons), a master thrower with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll.
Damage for each weapon is resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to either damage roll. Irrelevant to our Javelin thrower.

Sneaky Shot: Just before making a ranged attack, a master thrower with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target’s Spot check. If she wins the opposed check, her opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack.
Nice for rogue build but means only 1 attack will be made, does sneak attack damage and better hit chance outweigh iterative attacks?

Trip Shot: A master thrower with this ability may use a thrown weapon to make a trip attempt against an opponent farther than 5 feet away. The character makes a normal attack against the opponent with a thrown weapon. If the attack succeeds, in addition to doing damage as normal, the master thrower makes a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by the opponent’s Dexterity check or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier).
Other modifiers may apply on this opposed check (see page 158 of the Player’s Handbook). If the master thrower wins the opposed check, the opponent is tripped. The benefit of this ability does not stack with the benefit of the Improved Trip feat.
Funky Funness, I'd be very tempted to take it. (BBEG is fleeing? ranged Trip attempt!)

Tumbling Toss: When wearing light, medium, or no armor, a master thrower with this ability can hurl a single thrown weapon at any point during a tumbling attempt as a standard action.
If the result of her Tumble check is 25 or higher, the master thrower does not provoke an attack of opportunity for making this attack regardless of how many opponents threaten her. Fairly Nice for a rogue build, worth considering

Two with One Blow: If a master thrower with this ability uses a thrown weapon to attack two opponents adjacent to each other, she may take a –4 penalty on the attack roll and attempt to hit both opponents at once.
The attack may hit either, both, or neither opponent depending on the roll and the Armor Class of each opponent. Damage for each opponent is resolved separately. If the attack roll results in the threat of a critical hit, roll to confirm each critical hit separately. Mook Slaying, depends on your GM's style. if you are unlikely to face lots of minions avoid this.

Weak Spot: A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level.When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to the damage. tempting for a weaker thrower build, if you intend to persue more rogue levels this may be worth doing. pure rogue throwers should probably take this.

what i'd choose:
Sneaky Shot, Trip Shot, Tumbling Toss.

Stats; Focus on Dex, all stat increases go to dex. Better damage is irrelevant on attacks that don't hit. (unless there is a feat that allows you to use str for your to-hit bonus on thrown attacks, then ditch dex and focus str instead)

KevLar
2008-10-31, 08:29 AM
Stats; Focus on Dex, all stat increases go to dex. Better damage is irrelevant on attacks that don't hit. (unless there is a feat that allows you to use str for your to-hit bonus on thrown attacks, then ditch dex and focus str instead)
Brutal Throw, from Complete Adventurer. "You can add your Strength modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to attack rolls with thrown weapons."

only1doug
2008-10-31, 08:31 AM
Brutal Throw, from Complete Adventurer. "You can add your Strength modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to attack rolls with thrown weapons."

I thought there might be, wasn't quite sure. I'll edit my build above to add that in.

jcsw
2008-10-31, 08:55 AM
There's a prestige class in complete divine called stormlord, whose class features include turning every javelin you throw into a +1 Javelin at level 1, and whose prowess with them increases throughout.

At level 1: +1 Javelins
Level 2: +1 Shocking Javelins
Level 5: +1 Shocking and Thundering Javelins
Level 6: +2 Shocking and Thundering Javelins
Level 8: +2 Shocking Burst and Thundering Javelins
Level 9: +3 Shocking Burst and Thundering Javelins

It also gives full divine spellcasting progression...

Not the most powerful, but IMO the coolest.

ravenkith
2008-10-31, 09:15 AM
Actually, combined witht he gloves mentioned in the OP, Stormlord would be just about perfect.

Of course, you'd need to level up as a cleric or favored soul in order to get into the class in the first place.

Cleric might be the way to go here, as while it's not as pretty as favored soul, it only takes one stat for casting privileges.

With the right build, you could make a very nasty critter (righteous might, anyone?)

With a decent offense from the javelins, the casting side could focus on defense and debuffs....

so crazy it just might work....

Keld Denar
2008-10-31, 10:32 AM
Returning is actually pretty much a worthless enhancement. The problem with it comes with iterative attacks. Returning doesn't come back to you until the beginning of your next turn. That means once you throw it, you don't have it anymore to make the rest of your attacks. If you get multiple returning weapons for your multiple attacks per round, then the way returning is worded, you could only catch 1 (or maybe 2, if your other hand was open) and the rest would just pile up on the ground. And you couldn't move after throwing either, or they would just pile up on the ground where you were when you threw them. Its seriously a broken enhancement, but in the CW Samuri way, not the Druid kind of way.

If you have ToB, maybe something like:

Silverbrow Human Fighter1/Bard3/Warblade5/BloodstormBlade4/Warblade7. Get Rapid Shot and the whole TWF tree to increase number of attacks. Bloodstorm Blade would allow you to make ranged attacks as as melee attacks, and makes your weapon bounce back to you after every throw. Then you would only need 1 weapon. Its WAY better than returning. Then you light up all of your attacks with Dragonfire Inspiration. Feat build something like:
1st PB Shot (B)
1st Rapid Shot (B)
1st TWF
3rd Dragonfire Inspiration
6th Song of the White Raven
8th Improved Init (B)
9th Song of the Heart
12th Greater TWF
15th Improved TWF
18th Chaos Music
20th ??? (B)

That would give you a large number of thrown attacks, with about +9d6 fire damage on each with the right spells and equipment, all made with the same javelin so you could enchant it decently. Not the greatest build, but decent and fitting of your theme.

EDIT:

Actually, combined witht he gloves mentioned in the OP, Stormlord would be just about perfect.

Of course, you'd need to level up as a cleric or favored soul in order to get into the class in the first place.

Cleric might be the way to go here, as while it's not as pretty as favored soul, it only takes one stat for casting privileges.

With the right build, you could make a very nasty critter (righteous might, anyone?)

With a decent offense from the javelins, the casting side could focus on defense and debuffs....

so crazy it just might work....

First of all, the gauntlets would be redundant with the Stormlords abilities. Instead of 13k for the gloves, he could spend about 2k on a Quiver of Elhona and the rest on non-magical, non-masterwork javelins at 1g each. That nets him around 11k javelins over the life of the character. Thats plenty.

2nd of all, Righteous Might doesn't work well with ranged attacks. When the weapon leaves your hand, it reverts to its normal size, and baring some kind of conservation of momentum-conservation of idiotism arguement, the thrown projectiles would do less damage in almost every way except if from the bonus str. Divine Power would be a better buff in this case, or Divine Agility for accuarcy if you didn't use Brutal Throw.

And 3rd, Cleric >>>>>>> Favored Soul. Turn undead is one of the most powerful class features in the game due to [Divine] feats. Clerics get it, FS' don't. Also, a cleric's spell list is HUGE. Cleric spells are printed in every book published, and there are some doosies out there. Being limited to only casting ~20 spells at level 20 is a huge nerf to potency and versitility. Also, having domains is much much MUCH better than any of the crappy bonus features that Favored Souls get. Beyond the obvious customizability, some of the domain powers are amazing and the expanded spell list to get some valuable arcane spells is awesome too. Also, MAD sucks.

ravenkith
2008-10-31, 01:27 PM
Also, MAD sucks.

True that. As I said, cleric is the way to go, mainly because of the MAD issue.

I said RIGHTEOUS MIGHT, before, but I was thinking DIVINE POWER...the one that increases your base attack bonus.

He's going to need a STR score and brutal throw at any rate. A high dex doesn't fit with the (normally) heavily armored cleric, and the already demanding statline of the class.

Plus, with a high strength, the character can also participate effectively in melee if need be, without having to devote too many resources to being able to be good at both.

As a former 'chaingun archer' I know that the biggest limiting factor of any ranged build can be the amount of ammo you have.

A quiver of ehlonna, if I remember correctly, is limited to a maximum number of javelins, and it's pretty low, as I recall (12?).

With the gloves, he never has to worry about running out of javelins. Ever. He also doesn't have to worry about the logistics of lugging around enough javelins.

The 13k would be worth it, even taking up the glove spot.

Plus, the javelins are javelins of force.

Says so right in the description...which means that their damage would be unaffected by righteous might in any case.

HOWEVER - As a force effect, it would give the added advantage of being able to fully effect noncorporeal targets, and render protection from arrows, ironguard and the like absolutely useless.

The second biggest failing of any ranged build is usually an inability to mix it up in close, primarily because of the AOOs granted against ranged attackers when in melee.

Which is why, given say 32 point buy, I'd do something like the below:

STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 12

Please note the low charisma: this is assuming that nightsticks (from Lords Of Madness, IIRC) are available, and that divine metamagic is desired.

The low con is easily retroactively fixed with a con item. a plus 6 item at level ten and you just picked up an extra 30 HP.

This is a build optimized for heavier armor, such as full plate. Between the armor and the buffs available to the character, he should be a tough kill.

Furthermore, with a fighter bab, multiple attacks in a round will enable you to throw out damage without using up spells.

Of course, you could always try a Druid-based build.