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arguskos
2008-10-31, 06:38 PM
Hello all. I have been working on a potential solution for Sorcerer/Wizard domination of the game: expanding the school-based casters into a caster for each school!

For what I mean, please look at the Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Bard. You'll note that these classes are regarded as being pretty fun, pretty good, and fairly non-gamebreaking (massive cheese aside). If we look a touch closer, we see this:

Enchantment: Bard
Evocation: Warmage
Illusion: Beguiler
Necromancy: Dread Necromancer

Each of these casters focuses on a single spell school (Bards excepted, but they are close enough to enchantment specialists that they count for this exercise), and this limits their power, keeping the game fun and yet making everyone interesting.

In this vein, we see that four schools aren't getting much love:

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Transmutation

This could be because they are too powerful. Or because they just didn't get around to making specialist classes for them, or whatever. All I know is, this is an injustice that must be corrected! So, with that, let me introduce the premise of this project. Meet the other guys!

Abjuration/Divination: Savant
Conjuration: Summoner
Enchantment: Bard
Evocation: Warmage
Illusion: Beguiler
Necromancy: Dread Necromancer
Transmutation: Spellweaver

These seven classes (I couldn't expand both Abjuration and Divination into their own classes, so I combined them) are meant to replace Wizards and Sorcerers completely, so that arcane magic is more manageable, while remaining fun and interesting.

So far, I honestly haven't done much work on their actual class features, since I'm not that imaginative, good at homebrew, or have THAT much free time. What I DO have are the feel, the fluff, and the basic stats for each of the three classes.

-argus

arguskos
2008-10-31, 06:39 PM
The Savant
A cleric taps into the powers of the gods, and uses the Way to perform his miracles. Other arcane casters use the Art to do the grand things they do. Not so the savant. Savants have seen another path, one that remains obscure and hard to see to all others. Savants are those who have been touched by the Sight.

The Sight is the source of time, fate, and destiny. At random, the ability to manipulate the Sight is given to newborns. Thus, the choice to become a savant cannot be made, for savants are not made, they are born.

A savant uses their gifts to shield others from future harm, to see events long since past and yet to come, and to ensure that things unfold as the Sight wishes. They are often aloof loners, concerned with the prospects of the future over the troubles of the present.

Alignment: Any neutral
Hit Die: d6

Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Wis), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)
Skill Ranks: 4+Int mod

The Savant
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Spellcasting; Abjurant Defenses +1, Boosted Knowledge, Scribe Scroll

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Increased Clarity

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Flowing Defense

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Abjurant Defenses +2

8th|
+6/1|
+6|
+2|
+6|Advanced Clarity

9th|
+6/1|
+6|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+7/2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat

11th|
+8/3|
+7|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+9/4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Wall of Sight

13th|
+9/4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Abjurant Defenses +3

14th|
+10/5|
+9|
+4|
+9|Unnatural Clarity

15th|
+11/6/1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Bonus Feat

16th|
+12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+13/8/3|
+11|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+14/9/4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Abjurant Defenses +4

20th|
+15/10/5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Bonus Feat; Perfect Clarity[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Savants are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with no forms of armor or shields.

Spellcasting: A savant casts arcane spells which are drawn from the savant spell list. A savant must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the savant must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a savant's spell is 10 + the spell level + the savant's Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a savant can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Savant (as the Wizard). In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard, a savant may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the savant decides which spells to prepare. Savants learn four spells of their choice at each level, just as wizards do. They begin play with all cantrips in their spellbook, and knowledge of 8 level 1 spells.

Abjurant Defenses: A savant, through repeated exposure to abjuration spells, has learned how to ward herself against incoming attacks. She gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases to +2 at 7th level, +3 at 13th, and +4 at 17th.

Boosted Knowledge: A savant has expanded knowledge on all topics, thanks to the Sight boosting their knowledge. The savant may make a Boosted Knowledge check (as Dark Knowledge and Bardic Knowledge, but Int-based) at will.

Scribe Scroll: Savants gain Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Increased Clarity: A savant has a deeper understanding of the Sight than other mortal beings, and may tap into it at times to gain insight into problems that elude her. Twice per day, a savant of at least 2nd level may access the Sight to gain an insight bonus equal to her class level on any Intelligence-based check. This may be used as an immediate action.

Flowing Defense: At 4th level, the savant learns to shield others from harm with her expert knowledge of the Sight. As a move action, the savant may harmlessly absorb an amount of hit point damage equal to her class level that would affect an ally. This ability may only absorb damage from a single source, and only functions for one turn. The savant may use Flowing Defense once per day per class level.

Bonus Feat: A savant gains a bonus feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. This feat may be any metamagic feat, Spell Focus (abjuration or divination), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration or divination), Spell Penetration, or Greater Spell Penetration.

Advanced Clarity: At 8th level, the savant gains the ability to use the Sight to empower her spells with more punch, using the target's past and future against them. Whenever the savant casts an abjuration or divination spell, they may afflict a target with some of their future misfortune. This deals the target 1d6 force damage per level of the spell. The target of this ability does not need to be the target of the divination. This ability may be used even if the divination has no target.

Wall of Sight: At 12th level, the savant has learned a deeper secret of the Sight. Once per week, the savant may erect a semi-tangible wall of flowing time. This wall takes the form of a 5-foot/class level sphere, centered on the savant, and takes 1 hour to create (this sphere clips into the ground, and prevents even burrowing creatures from passing). It lasts for 1 hour/class level, and prevents anything from passing it. It cannot be defeated by any magic short of a rod of cancellation or a Mordenkainen's disjunction spell, and may be lowered or raised by the savant at will. The wall is immobile, rooted to the savant's position at the time of creation. If the savant is interrupted during the creation of the wall, the wall is lost, but the weekly use of the ability is not.

Unnatural Clarity: At 14th level, the savant's connection to the Sight has increased, granting the savant permanent magical effects. The savant gains the benefit of several spells permanently: true sight, arcane sight, and detect scrying. These effects have a caster level equal to the savant's caster level.

Perfect Clarity: At 20th level, the savant's connection to the Sight has reached it's pinnacle. Once per day, the savant may stop time for one round (as per the time stop spell). However, unlike the spell, the savant is able to affect targets with anything they desire (attacks, spells, whatever). If she affects a target, they are allowed a save (as against a 9th level spell from the savant) to break the Perfect Clarity. If they succeed, the effect ends prematurely.

Spell List:
All arcane spells of the abjuration and divination schools from the PHB, PHB 2, Spell Compendium, and Complete Mage. Savants also get all cantrips from the above sources.

Spells/Day
{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|2|1
2nd|3|2|-
3rd|4|2|1|-
4th|4|3|2|-|-
5th|4|3|2|1|-|-
6th|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
7th|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
8th|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
9th|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
10th|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
11th|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
12th|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
13th|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
14th|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15th|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-
16th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|-
17th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
18th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2
19th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3
20th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]


I'll get fluff up later. I'm just doing bare-bones right now.

-argus

arguskos
2008-10-31, 06:41 PM
The Summoner

FLUFF TO COME LATER

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d4

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Wis), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Cha), Spellcraft (Int)
Skill Ranks: 4+Int mod

The Summoner
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Spellcasting

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Rapid Summoning

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Augmented Summoning

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Summoned Cohort

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Sudden Extend 1/day

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Advanced Rapid Summoning

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Sudden Extend 2/day

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Calling Synergy, Sudden Extend 3/day

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Piercing Conjurations

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Advanced Augmented Summoning, Sudden Extend 4/day

12th|
+6/1|
+4|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+6/1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Sudden Extend 5/day

14th|
+7/2|
+4|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+7/2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Sudden Extend 6/day

16th|
+8/3|
+5|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+8/3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Sudden Extend 7/day

18th|
+9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Sudden Extend 8/day

20th|
+10/5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Mastery of Summoning
[/table]

Spellcasting: A summoner casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the summoner spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a savant or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a summoner must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a summoner’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the summoner’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a summoner can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Summoner. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A summoner knows all spells that he can cast at any given time. Unlike a savant or a cleric, a summoner need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Rapid Summoning: At 2nd level, the summoner casts all Summon Ice Beast, Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, and Summon Undead spells as standard actions.

Augmented Summoning: At 3rd level, the summoner gains the Augment Summoning feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Summoned Cohort: At 4th level, the summoner may extend the duration of a [summoning] spell to 24 hours. This ability is not cumulative with other effects that increase the duration of a spell, and may only be used once per day.

Sudden Extend: The summoner, at 5th level, may apply the Extend Spell metamagic feat to a [summoning] spell he casts 1/day. This ability can be used 2/day at level 7, 3/day at level 9, 4/day at level 11, 5/day at level 13, 6/day at level 15, 7/day at level 17, and 8/day at level 19.

Advanced Rapid Summoning: At 6th level, the summoner can spontaneously quicken one [summoning] spell. This ability may be used 2/day.

Calling Synergy: At 9th level, the summoner may treat all spells of the [calling] subschool as thought they had the [summoning] subschool, allowing him to apply the Rapid Summoning, Augmented Summoning, and Mastery of Summoning abilities to called creatures.

Piercing Conjurations: At 10th level, the summoner gains the ability to punch through spells that deny trans-planar travel, such as Dimensional Lock and the like. The summoner's spells ignore any effect or spell that prevents summoning, teleportation, calling, or planar travel. This causes strange effects when inside of an antimagic field. The summoner may cast any spell inside the field related to the above categories, but depending on the spell, the effects may not occur (for example, if the summoner uses Summon Monster 5 to get a critter, the critter will wink out for the field's duration, unless it has SR [as noted in the antimagic field description]).

Advanced Augmented Summoning: At 11th level, the summoner's creatures become even more powerful. Any creature created with a [summoning] spell gains DR 2/-, +2 insight to AC, and +1 hp per HD.

Mastery of Summoning: At 20th level, the summoner may apply a single template of his choice (chosen when this ability is gained) to summoned creatures. He may use this ability up to 3/day. The template may not be worth more than a +2 increase in CR.

Spell List:

0—caltrops, darkness, detect magic, detect poison, light, protection from alignment, read magic, resist planar alignment

1st—avoid planar effects, comprehend languages, entangle, grease, portal beacon, conjure frost beast i, summon monster i, summon nature's ally i, summon undead i, wall of smoke

2nd—analyze portal, baleful transposition, dimension hop, daylight, deeper darkness, phantom steed, planar tolerance, portal alarm, regroup, sleet storm, summon monster ii, summon nature's ally ii, summon undead ii, tongues, web, wind wall, conjure frost beast ii

3rd—dimension step, dimensional anchor, magic circle against alignment, plant growth, stinking cloud, summon monster iii, summon nature's ally iii, summon undead iii, vipergout, wall of ice, conjure frost beast iii

4th—dimension door, dismissal, instant summons, lesser planar ally, lesser planar binding, summon monster iv, summon nature's ally iv, summon undead iv, wall of fire, conjure frost beast iv

5th—dimensional lock, black tentacles, greater dimension door, plane shift, summon monster v, summon nature's ally v, summon undead v, teleport, wall of iron, wall of stone, word of recall, conjure frost beast v

6th—antipathy, greater plane shift, planar ally, planar binding, summon monster vi, summon nature's ally vi, sympathy, wall of thorns, conjure frost beast vi

7th—binding, forcecage, greater teleport, maze, shadow walk, summon monster vii, summon nature's ally vii, conjure frost beast vii

8th—freedom, greater planar ally, greater planar binding, summon golem, summon monster viii, summon nature's ally viii, conjure frost beast viii

9th—elemental swarm, gate, imprisonment, refuge, summon elemental monolith, summon monster ix, summon nature's ally ix, teleportation circle, unbinding, conjure frost beast ix


Spells/day{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|5|3
2nd|6|4|-
3rd|6|5|3|-
4th|6|6|4|-|-
5th|6|6|5|3|-|-
6th|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
7th|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-
8th|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
9th|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-
10th|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
11th|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-
12th|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
13th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]

-argus

arguskos
2008-10-31, 06:42 PM
The Spellweaver
To some, magic is straightforward. They use it to demolish homes, minds, or souls. It is a tool, to be used for good or ill as the user decides. However, a hidden and forgotten sect of spellcasters discovered that if you approach magic as an art form, a whole new way of casting spells emerges.

The Spellweavers are the descendants of that sect. They use the mysterious spellnets to work their magic. Though capable of casting spells normally, the act of weaving their magic into the spellnets makes their spells far more potent.

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: (TBA)
Skill Points: 4+Int Mod

Spellweaver
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Spellcasting, Armored Mage (light)

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3|

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+3|

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|spellnet

5th|
+5|
+1|
+1|
+4|

6th|
+6/1|
+2|
+2|
+5|Armored Mage (medium)

7th|
+7/2|
+2|
+2|
+5|

8th|
+8/3|
+2|
+2|
+6|Enhanced Spellnets

9th|
+9/4|
+3|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+10/5|
+3|
+3|
+7|

11th|
+11/6/1|
+3|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+12/7/2|
+4|
+4|
+8|deathnet

13th|
+13/8/3|
+4|
+4|
+8|

14th|
+14/9/4|
+4|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+15/10/5|
+5|
+5|
+9|

16th|
+16/11/6/1|
+5|
+5|
+10|spiritnet

17th|
+17/12/7/2|
+5|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+18/13/8/3|
+6|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+19/14/9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+20/15/10/5|
+6|
+6|
+12|soulnet
[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A spellweaver has proficiency in all simple weapons, along with 2 martial weapons of his or her choice. They also have proficiency with all light armor and light shields.

Spellcasting: blahblah, Dread Necromancer-style spontaneous, Charisma-based casting.

Armored Mage (light): A spellweaver does not incur spell failure chance while wearing light armor. At level 6, this increases to medium armor, and the spellweaver gains proficiency with medium armor.

Spellnet: At 4th level, the spellweaver gains their true power: the ability to weave and create the semi-tangible spellnets that give the class it's name. A spellnet is an ethereal construct made of spells the weaver channels into it for delayed, yet combined effects.

A spellnet is made of cast, but unexpended, spells the spellweaver designates. The weaver may place one spell per turn, as a standard action, into the spellnet up to a maximum of 1 spell per 2 spellweaver levels. There is no limitation of the level of spell that may be placed into the net. When a spell in placed into a net, it is treated as expended from the spellweaver's spells/day, but does not have an effect until the net is used.

A spellnet lasts for a number of rounds equal to the spells placed into it, after the spellweaver is finished with making the net. Once a spellweaver begins making the net, he must either complete the net (to it's fullest capacity) or use the net. If he stops placing spells into the net, he cannot go back and place them in again later.

The effect of a spellnet is as follows: when used, the spellnet covers a 5-foot/level diameter area, affecting every target in that area with every spell in the spellnet. The spells all act independently, but trigger all at once, in the order they were placed into the net. If any triggered spells give a save, those saves are increase by 2. Using a spellnet is a full-round action. Once a target is hit with a spellnet, it remains attached to that spellnet for the duration of the net.

Enhanced Spellnets: At 8th level, the save boosting effect of a spellweaver's spellnets increases by 2, to a total of 4.

Deathnet: At 12th level, a spellweaver has learned how to create a deathnet, a specialized form of spellnet. Creating a deathnet is a full-round action, and using it is a move action. A deathnet spreads all damage done to any living creature in the net to all living creatures in the net. The damage is spread around equally. The net lasts for 1 round/level, and has a 5-foot/level diameter. All living creatures in the area of the net when it is cast get a Fortitude save to resist the effect (DC=10+cha mod+1/2 spellweaver level). If there is only one living creature affected by the net, then the net has no effect.

Spiritnet: At 16th level, the spellweaver can create a spiritnet, a specialized form of spellnet, much like a deathnet is. However, a spiritnet performs the opposite function from a deathnet: where a deathnet brings pain to those under it, a spiritnet heals those affected by it. Any living being in the area of a spiritnet heals 2 hp/spellweaver level each round, along with 1 point of ability damage or drain a round. A spiritnet lasts for 1 round/level, and has a 5-foot/level diameter.

Soulnet: At 20th level, the spellweaver unlocks the final power in his craft: the dreaded soulnet. A soulnet is much like a deathnet, but rather than dividing damage, it saps the soul. Any creature affected by a soulnet gains two negative levels each round, until the net's duration expires, or the creature dies. A creature affected by the soulnet gets a Fortitude save when the effect begins to resist the net (DC=10+cha mod+1/2 spellweaver level). If they succeed on their save, they gain only one negative level each round instead. A soulnet lasts for 1 round/level, and has a 5-foot/level diameter.

Spells/day{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|2|0
2nd|3|1|-
3rd|4|2|0|-
4th|4|2|1|-|-
5th|4|3|2|0|-|-
6th|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
7th|4|3|3|2|0|-|-|-
8th|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
9th|4|4|3|3|2|0|-|-|-
10th|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
11th|4|4|4|3|3|2|0|-|-
12th|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
13th|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|0|-|-
14th|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
15th|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|0|-
16th|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-
17th|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|0
18th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|1
19th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2
20th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3
[/table]

-argus

arguskos
2008-10-31, 10:04 PM
So... does no one like the idea I have here? Anyone? Anyone? Hello...? /cuestumbleweedsandcrickets

Also, the Savant is basically up for review. The Summoner is as well (though I need some suggestions for abilities. The Spellweaver is.... very far from done. In fact, he doesn't have ANYTHING completed.

-argus

Zeta Kai
2008-10-31, 10:08 PM
I really like these so far. This is a valid premise, & I think your execution is sound. I was wondering, though, why we can't do a class for each Abjuration & Divination. A Healer & a Prophet could both be viable class concepts.

Salvonus
2008-10-31, 10:14 PM
I really like these so far. This is a valid premise, & I think your execution is sound. I was wondering, though, why we can't do a class for each Abjuration & Divination. A Healer & a Prophet could both be viable class concepts.

Hm... Out of interest, how would a Prophet interact with the Wizard's Spontaneous Divination alternative class feature from Complete Champion? Couldn't that cause problems if a Wizard with that ability (and there's no good reason not to take it, unless you REALLY need that 5th level feat) was in the same party as a Prophet? I could see the same dynamic happening that I hear about with Wizards (avec Knock spell and cheap trap-springing summons) outshining Rogues. I know it's very premature to be discussing that, but it's something to think about when designing a Divination specialist - they really need some way to outshine that Wizard class feature.

Pie Guy
2008-10-31, 10:15 PM
I'd say either make the savant two classes, or include something more abjur-y as a capstone as well.

Also, why the d6 hd for the savant?

streakster
2008-10-31, 10:26 PM
Summoner Capstone - Apply a template (maximum value x) to a summoned monster, x times a day.


As for the Savant, it seems like there's more emphasis on the Divination than the Abjuration - heck, if you renamed Abjurant Defenses to Foresee Danger, the class would be almost entirely Divination based. I'd say split 'em up.

arguskos
2008-10-31, 10:58 PM
About the Savant being more Divination than Abjuration, I did that for a few reasons:
1. I honestly don't feel that both Divination and Abjuration are good schools for solo classes. I am already straining to see how either can be useful on their own in combat. I know that there is more to D&D than combat, but I also feel every class needs to be useful in combat (to a degree).
2. Much of the feel is from the spell list, which I have yet to post. Sorry for the delay, but it's been a long day and I don't have it up yet.
3. Their fluff is basically, that they use a force called "the Sight" (similar to the Way and the Art, if you are familiar with Faerunian spell lore) to predict and ward damage.

As for the d6 on the Savant, the idea is that since hp is an abstraction, it represented his ability to avoid damage thanks to the Sight (I'll explain what that is in the Savant fluff).

About the Wizard ability thingy, did you notice where I said...

These seven classes (I couldn't expand both Abjuration and Divination into their own classes, so I combined them) are meant to replace Wizards and Sorcerers completely, so that arcane magic is more manageable, while remaining fun and interesting.
There ARE no wizards if you decide to use this 3.5 variant, and they are balanced against one another, NOT against Wizards or Sorcerers.

All that said, I may consider an abjuration class, though I'm not sure if it can be made viable alongside the other classes. Each school isn't QUITE deep enough for full, complete spell-lists, especially abjuration and divination.

-argus

EDIT: streakster, I love the idea. Great catch. To everyone that offered advice and/or criticisms, thanks greatly! Keep it coming!

Salvonus
2008-10-31, 11:08 PM
Whoops, sorry, I missed that part. :smallredface: I thought this was just a project to round out the Beguiler-DN-Warmage trio. :smallredface:

Just a quick formatting catch:


Unlike a bard, a savant may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the savantdecides which spells to prepare.

arguskos
2008-10-31, 11:10 PM
Well, it certainly IS that, but it also is meant to replace normal, troublesome casters with the far superior Beguiler-DN-Warmage style casters.

Anyways, if you've got any other feedback, that'd be great! Also, fixed that thar error. Good catch.

-argus

Salvonus
2008-10-31, 11:12 PM
Ooh, I do have a quick question. With Abjurant Defenses, is that bonus supposed to be untyped? It feels like an Insight bonus to me, but I suppose you might be going for the Untyped bonus for stackability?

arguskos
2008-10-31, 11:14 PM
Actually, yes, it was meant to be untyped. I guess I can change it to Insight if need be. I sorta just made it untyped to be different. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

Salvonus
2008-10-31, 11:28 PM
Actually, yes, it was meant to be untyped. I guess I can change it to Insight if need be. I sorta just made it untyped to be different. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

Heh, well, it's a good point - there might just end up being a whole bunch of Insight bonuses if you don't watch out. :smalltongue:

For the Unnatural Clarity ability, why not have "something else" be Detect Scrying? It makes a lot of sense to me - the Savant is so in tune with the nature of divination magic that they develop a sixth sense about it. It also doesn't feel too overpowered to me, while still remaining quite useful.

If you want to go for a lower-level spell, I think Comprehend Languages is an excellent idea. Not Tongues, since that influences "output"; arcane sight and true seeing are both "input" spells, so I think continuing that theme makes sense.

Perfect Clarity is an awesome capstone, I think. It's very powerful, but it's good to have an incentive to stay in the class all the way.

I agree that more Abjuration-centric abilities might be in order. I'm short on ideas for that, but maybe something built around the Alarm spell might work well. It starts off just being an automatic ward that trips off a mental alarm when someone passes through a spot you designate. In its ultimate form, however, you can spend a standard action a round to concentrate on a blindsight-like ability that lets you sense all living/unliving creatures within a 60 ft. radius. Essentially, it's like a personal warding that grows in power as your mastery over abjuration develops. I dunno; I'm not saying you should use that idea, but hopefully it'll get the ball rolling for you. :smallsmile:

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

[edit]

Very quickly, just another couple of typos:


Weapon and Armor Proficencies [should be Proficiencies]: Savants are proficient will all simple weapons. They are proficient with no forms of armor or shields.

puppyavenger
2008-10-31, 11:34 PM
a question, why the alignment restriction on the Savant?

also, maybe something calling-oriented for one the the Summoners abilities? you can't expect them to get by with only one sub-school getting boni

arguskos
2008-10-31, 11:42 PM
Detect Scrying, I can dig it. :smallbiggrin: I was stuck on that for SO long, you have no idea.

Anyways, concerning Abjuration abilities, yeah, I do need some more. Perhaps Alarm would be good. I always wanted to expand on Alarm...

Also, you keep owning me about my damn spelling!! Argh, I fail at spelling today! I'll get right on that.


a question, why the alignment restriction on the Savant?

also, maybe something calling-oriented for one the the Summoners abilities? you can't expect them to get by with only one sub-school getting boni
Savants are neutral, because they have a certain level of impartiality to the world, on account of being so attuned to the Sight and the vagaries of the past and future.

As for the Summoner, I guess I can expand the class to calling spells as well. I'll see what I can do.

-argus

arguskos
2008-11-01, 03:09 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I fixed those typos, edited in detect scrying, gave the summoner the Calling Synergy ability at level 17, and also gave him his capstone ability (thanks Streakster, for the suggestion). Also, I got some basic savant fluff up.

Thoughts?

-argus

Thurbane
2008-11-01, 06:35 PM
This is a really worthwhile project - I like what you've done so far. :smallsmile:

EvilElitest
2008-11-01, 06:42 PM
heh, i love the idea. Through adding some more fluff would be nice on all accounts
from
EE

Pie Guy
2008-11-01, 11:10 PM
I love the idea, but now won't we need a lot more than one or two casters?

arguskos
2008-11-01, 11:36 PM
EE, I will be updating the fluff when I'm not playing D&D or studying for my exam (read: later on Monday).

Pie Guy, I've found that with a caster or two (of whatever kind), the party is alright. If you don't have one, it's just like if you didn't have a caster normally. It's not really any different than normal.

-argus

SurlySeraph
2008-11-01, 11:41 PM
I've been working on and off on a project that is pretty much exactly the same as this, though I must say these are quite a bit more playable than what I have so far. Keep up the good work - I may want to steal these! :smallwink:

Knaight
2008-11-02, 12:10 AM
Incredible, just incredible. Mark me impressed.

arguskos
2008-11-02, 07:49 AM
I've been working on and off on a project that is pretty much exactly the same as this, though I must say these are quite a bit more playable than what I have so far. Keep up the good work - I may want to steal these! :smallwink:
Hey, feel free to suggest other abilities I haven't thought of! I always like seeing additional thoughts, especially when they come from other minds (I think strangely).

Also, thanks Surly and Knaight for the praise! Everyone else too! I appreciate it.

Also, I'll post some more fluff details on the Spellweaver later today.

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 07:55 AM
I'll need a while to find it, but Frosty and I were making a Conjurer/Abjurer and a Transmuter/Diviner ages ago. I'll post the link if I can ever find it.


EDIT: Here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4055352&highlight=Tempest#post4055352 . The Conjurer/Abjurer is practically finished apart from a name, but the Transmuter/Diviner needs class features.

EvilElitest
2008-11-02, 08:12 AM
EE, I will be updating the fluff when I'm not playing D&D or studying for my exam (read: later on Monday).

Pie Guy, I've found that with a caster or two (of whatever kind), the party is alright. If you don't have one, it's just like if you didn't have a caster normally. It's not really any different than normal.

-argus

alright, look forward to it, good luck
from
EE

Drakefall
2008-11-02, 08:51 AM
Wow, these are a brilliant idea! I've always loved the specialised mages so I'm definitely for more of them.

With regards to the Savant: The class obviously doesn't pack the most combat punch (which is good because it would be weird and wrong if it did). To make up for this perhaps adding some more versatility to the class would be a good idea. I don't really know how to attain this though, perhaps more skillness or a signature abjurative spell-like ability?

Anyway I'm enjoying your work, keep it up!:smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 09:13 AM
Kurald Galain found this class which pretty much does the same thing as the Summoner which is mentioned here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Summoner_(DnD_Class) . (I couldn't find it initially.)

arguskos
2008-11-02, 09:48 PM
Tempest, I saw those links. I do like the Summoner class, and may nick some of the nice little details (like the premade spell list and maybe a feature or two).

I checked out you and Frosty's classes, but I think that I'll be going a different way. Conjuration/Abjuration and Divination/Transmutation just aren't where I want to go with these classes, though they are great ideas. Just not quite where I'm going with the classes. :smallwink:

Also, I'm working on the Savant spell list and will be nicking that Summoner list, so I'll post when I have them up.

EDIT: I actually just got that Summoner list and a few abilities (Summoned Cohort) altered a bit, and on the post. Lemme know what ya'll think.

EDIT #2: Drakefall, I plan to add some more variation in the spell list. I'm thinking about some minor necromantic and transmutation spells (think life-drain, inflict/cure spells, and some self/party buffs). Thoughts?

-argus

SurlySeraph
2008-11-03, 12:12 AM
Hey, feel free to suggest other abilities I haven't thought of! I always like seeing additional thoughts, especially when they come from other minds (I think strangely).

Also, thanks Surly and Knaight for the praise! Everyone else too! I appreciate it.

Also, I'll post some more fluff details on the Spellweaver later today.

-argus

You want ideas, do you? :smallamused: Here, have an infodump!
Here's how the casting for the classes I was working on works:
They gain spell levels as a wizard, but gain spells per day as a Sorcerer
They cast spontaneously
They know all spells they can cast automatically
Critical stats – all of them use Intelligence for maximum level of spells they can cast and number of bonus spells per day, but Abjurers, Diviners, Necromancers, and Transmuters use Wisdom for spell DCs, while Conjurers, Enchanters, Evokers, and Illusionists use Charisma for spell DCs

A possible ability for the diviner would be being able to give enemies visions that have negative effects on them. Depending on the diviner's class level, this ability would demoralize them (Shake Belief), cause fear (Terrifying Sight), daze (Impossible Truth), paralyze (crushing Realization), or kill targets who fail Will save (Dread Secret).

Possible class abilities for the various caster classes (for these, I gave the 1st ability at 1st level and the subsequent ones at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th)

Abjurer abilities
Armored caster - the abjurer ignores spell failure penalties for light armor; he can ignore spell failure penalties for medium armor at 7th level, and for all armor at 12th level.
Reinforce - as a move action, the abjurer can prevent 1 target from taking an amount of damage equal to his class level from a single source
Defensive Counterspell - the abjurer can counterspell any spell with one of his spells of the same level
Secure - with 1 hour of work, the abjurer can create a barrier that prevents anything from entering or leaving an area (the area is a sphere with radius of 5 feet per class level) by any means for 8 hours. The barrier can only be dispelled by a rod of cancellation or a Disjunction spell, though the abjurer can raise and lower it at will as a full-round action.
Untouchable - once per day, the abjurer can keep himself from being negatively affected by anything, including divine intervention, for a number of rounds equal to his WIS bonus

Conjurer abilities
Summon useful item - the conjurer can summon mundane items at will. The total value of the items he summons in 1 day can be no more than 5 gp per class level. The items disappear 1 hour per class level after they were summoned.
Acquire - as a full-round action, an object flies to the abjurer from within 30 feet. The person holding the object can make a STR check or Reflex save [DC=10+ ½ class level] to grab if is held. Any creature whose square the object passes through can make a Reflex save to catch the object. The conjurer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his INT bonus.
Bond of Summoning - the conjurer can attune a willing living creature to himself. As a full-round action, he can teleport that creature to him at any time. This works across planes and has no risk of mishaps. The maximum number of attuned creatures is equal to the conjurer's CHA bonus.
Improved Acquire - as a full-round action, the conjurer can teleport an object to him; no other creatures can prevent this. The object can be up to 120 feet away.
Bringer - the conjurer's spells ignore effects, such as Dimensional Anchor that block summoning, teleportation, or plane shift.

Diviner abilities
Flashes of Prescience - the diviner adds his WIS bonus to saves, AC, and attack for 1 round per class level per day; activating this ability is a free action.
I Know This - the diviner gains Bardic Knowledge, as a Bard of his level, and Dark Knowledge, as an Archivist of his level.
Reach of Sight - by making a Spellcraft check, the Diviner can make it possible for his allies to make ranged attacks and cast spells against a remote target through a Scrying pool, a Mage’s Eye, or another means of remote viewing. The DC for the Spellcraft check is 10 + the target’s Will save bonus, +1 for every 10 miles between the caster and target, +15 if target is on another plane.
True Prescience - the diviner is never flatfooted, and the Flashes of Prescience bonuses are permanent.
Seen It All - the diviner is unaffected by concealment, Blur, and all other conditions that adds a miss chance to attacks. Also, he has permanent True Seeing and Greater Arcane Sight.

Enchanter abilities
Voice of reason - the enchanter adds his INT bonus, in addition to his CHA or WIS bonus, to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, and Intimidate checks.
Voice above reason - the enchanter can use social skills in ways that violate logic (for example, using Bluff to convince someone that he is a waffle) without taking a circumstance penalty on the check. He can do this a number of times per day equal to his INT bonus. If the skill check is successful, the target realizes what it is doing and returns to its normal behavior after a number of rounds equal to the enchanter's CHA bonus.
Voice of truth - like voice above reason, but ignores immunity to mind-affecting effects, works on unintelligent creatures (although the DC of all checks increases by 10 for every factor that would prevent social skills from working on creature). Also, the enchanter can make Spellcraft checks to have his spells affect creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects [DC = twice the creature’s CR])
Voice above truth - like voice of truth, but can make creatures go against their essential natures (convincing a Solar to kill orphans, convincing an Inevitable to stop pursuing its target, etc.)
Persuade All Creation - the enchanter can make something he says temporarily come true. This duplicates the effect of a Wish spell, but all effects disappear after number of rounds equal to the enchanter's CHA bonus.

Evoker abilities
Manipulate Elements - the evoker can change the ambient temperature by 10 degrees, put out 1 5-foot square of fire per round, neutralize 5 gallons of acid per round, create a zone of silence in a 5-foot square, or do something of similar power, as full-round action. This ability has a 30 ft. range.
Explosive Counterstrike - whenever the evoker takes at least 10 damage from an attack, spell, or special ability, he can give up his standard action for the next round to deal that much damage again (as force damage) to the attacker that harmed him. In addition, the target must make a STR or DEX check (DC = damage taken) or be knocked back 5 feet and fall prone. The evoker can do this a number of times per day equal to his CHA bonus.
Control Elements - the evoker can change the ambient temperature by 40 degrees, move a 10 square feet of fire up to 30 feet in any direction, move up to 20 gallons of acid through the air up to 30 feet in any direction, create a zone of silence in a 10 square feet, or do something of similar power, as a full-round action. This ability has a 120 ft. range.
Chain of Explosive Counterstrikes - when the evoker uses Explosive Counterstrike, he can then also deal half as much damage to a 2nd target within 10 feet of the first, then a quarter of the original damage to a 3rd target within 10 feet of the second target. The 2nd and 3rd targets must also make STR or DEX checks or be knocked prone, at DCs equal to the lower damage that they took.
Devastate - once per day, the evoker can fire a blast of pure energy in a 100 ft. cone. Every creature and object in the cone must make a Reflex save (DC = 15 + Cha bonus + Int bonus) or be disintegrated. Survivors are blinded and stunned for 3 rounds.

Illusionist abilities
Persistent Illusion - the illusionist can make a number of Ghost Sound or Silent Image spells equal to his CHA modifier permanent.
Shadow Spell - the illusionist can cast a partly-real version of any arcane spell, a number of times per day equal to his INT modifier. He also expends spell slot as if he cast that spell. The percent that the spell is real is 5% times the illusionist's class level.
Double - the illusionist gains a permanent Simulacrum of himself; if this Simulacrum is destroyed, he can replace it by spending 1 entire day working.
Greater Shadows - all illusion spells that the illusionist casts count as at least 10% real, and so have a 10% chance of dealing damage, etc.
Make Real - the illusionist can cause all ongoing illusions he’s created to be 100% real and have effects as if they were real for a number of rounds equal to his CHA bonus. This includes being able to attack, manipulate objects, etc.

Necromancer abilities
Flow of Life - the necromancer can transfer HP between 2 willing creatures within 5 ft. of him as a move action; the maximum HP transferred per round is equal to his class level. One of the targets can be himself.
Redirect Death - as an immediate action, the necromancer can cause damage he takes from one source (e.g. one attacker, fire, hitting the ground) to instead be split evenly between all other living things in a circle around him. The circle's radius is 1 foot per HP that the necromancer would have lost. The necromancer is dazed for one round after using this ability. The necromancer must choose to use this ability before damage is rolled. The necromancer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his WIS modifier.
Undead Minions - the necromancer can permanently command 1 HD of undead per class level, though he must either animate/ create them himself or gain their loyalty (for ghosts other and intelligent undead), and they can be taken away from him through Control Undead, rebuking, etc.
Lifetaker - as Flow of Life, but it works on unwilling targets as well. Will save (DC 10 + Wis modifier + Int modifier) prevents.
Slaying Hand - the necromancer gains a touch attack that kills the target instantly, Fort save DC 10 + Wis modifier + Int modifier prevents. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his WIS modifier.

Transmuter abilities
Transmute Energy - as a full-round action, the transmuter can make any ongoing effect (a spell, a natural fire, the ambient environment, etc.) that does some kind of elemental damage do any other kind of elemental damage instead. This ability can affect up to 5 square feet per class level. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the transmuter's WIS bonus.
Alter Body - the transmuter can give himself an inherent penalty in one of his physical stats to gain an inherent bonus of the same amount to another physical stat. When using this ability, the transmuter cannot reduce any of his physical stats to less than 3. This takes a full-round action.
Shift Spell - the transmuter can give up his standard action for the next round to change the target or targets of a spell that he identifies with a Spellcraft check to the target or targets of his choice. He can do this a number of times per day equal to his WIS bonus.
Transmute Matter - the transmuter can change what metal a metal object is made out of as full-round action, and can cast Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone, Mud to Rock, and Rock to Mud, on nonliving targets as a full-round action at will without expending any spell slots.
Philosopher’s Stone - the Transmuter no longer ages, and he gains 1d100 gp per day.

All of the classes also get a few spells from other schools that are appropriate - for example, Necromancers get the Cure line of spells and the Raise Dead line of spells, the Abjurer gets Fire Shield and pretty much anything else with "Shield" in the name, the Diviner gets Contingency, etc.

arguskos
2008-11-03, 12:44 AM
stuffofawesomeandwin
Okies, so, looking at this, here is my current sequence of thoughts.

Abjurer:
-Reinforce is pretty sweet. I like the flavor and the power level for the vicinity of level 5-7.
-Secure is... fairly strong. It seems pretty powerful. I might say that it is beatable by a higher caster level Greater Dispel Magic or a similar effect. Beyond that, another cool Abjuration-themed power.
-Untouchable is... really strong. Like, REALLY damn strong. It seems more like something that would happen in the early epic's, but that's just me. Anyways, cool, but O.o powerful.

Conjurer:
-The random item creation/telekinesis stuff is fun, but not really that great, IMO. It's cute, but you might as well just give them telekinesis at will around level 11 and call it an evening.
-Bond of Summoning is pretty neat, and I actually really like it.
-Bringer is something I should have thought of, and is something I am TOTALLY nicking. Hope you don't mind.

Diviner:
-The only ability here worth commenting on is I Know This (everything else is pretty decent, but nothing exciting). I Know This is... pretty awesome, actually, and totally gives the feel of a master Diviner.

Enchanter:
-I'm not an enchanter guy, so all I can say here is: "looks good".

Evoker:
-The Manipulate Elements abilities are really flavorful and fun, and I really like them. They seem like they could be overly powerful (changing ambient temperature by 40 degrees in a rainstorm could cause issues, for example).
-Devastate is... insane. DC 15+two stat mods?? That's crazy powerful. It's also AWESOME, so I'm not complaining.

Illusionist:
-See enchanter.

Necromancer:
-Redirect Death is the big star here, IMO. It's a powerful ability, and one that is really interesting and fun. I think this is something awesome, and I may have to nick it for the Spellweaver, actually. A deathnet might be pretty awesome... (details to come later).

Transmuter:
-I like the Transmute Matter ability. It's pretty fun, and in theme for them.
-Heh, Philosopher's Stone, heh. They get 1d100 gp per day at random, that's just so funny to envision. "Hey Bob, what'd you get today?" "Aw, damnit, I only rolled a 3!"

Anyways, I may have to nick some of these abilities, if you don't mind. If you so, just lemme know.

-argus

arguskos
2008-11-06, 04:57 PM
Ok, so, I can merely assume that my spelllist for the Summoner is alright. This is good.

SurlySeraph, I'll be nicking the following ideas, though I will be renaming them and may make an alteration or two:
Savant
-Reinforce
-Secure
-I Know This
Summoner
-Bringer
Spellweaver
-Redirect Death

If that's an issue, just let me know and I'll take 'em down.

Also, I *hope* to get the Spellweaver down on e-paper today, but I'm lazy, busy, and may not have time.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-07, 12:50 AM
OK, I'm glad to be helpful. Thanks for using my work!

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-07, 02:24 AM
I just saw the Summoner spell list. It looks okay, but why did you change a couple of the spell levels? (Eg: I notices Entangle was a level 2 spell on your list.)

arguskos
2008-11-07, 02:29 AM
Oh, I must have missed that. It was like that on the list I copy-pasted from the Wiki... XD

I do think that Darkness and Light should be 0th level, so I left those. :smallwink: I'll go change Entangle back to first though... XD

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-07, 02:33 AM
Also, Wall of Ice is normlly a 4th level spell: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wall_of_ice (I'm not sure why it's Evocation, though).

arguskos
2008-11-07, 02:35 AM
Honestly, I don't mind that being 3rd level, actually. It gives them some utility earlier on. Entangle is fixed though.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-07, 02:38 AM
Okay. I stil can't think of anything for the Transmuter/Diviner I suggested. Do you think taking features from variant Wizards on http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf would work?

arguskos
2008-11-07, 02:39 AM
Probably. Do look at Seraph's stuff at the top of this here page for some more ideas (it's good stuff).

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-07, 02:48 AM
Those are good thanks.:smallsmile: I'll decide which ones I'd use later.

arguskos
2008-11-07, 03:41 PM
Coolio Tempest.

Also, I have the Spellweaver up. He's my favorite of my new classes, so please do take a look, and let me know what you think. Oh, and forgive my inability to correctly format the ability descriptions. I'm still getting the hang of how to do so. :smallwink:

Raging Gene Ray
2008-11-07, 03:50 PM
I noticed some things about the summoner spell list:

I think that if Shades is on there, its lower level equivalents of Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration should be, too.

Depending on what direction you go with the fluff, I might add: The Orb spells from the Spell Compendium (maybe up to Sphere of Utter Destruction), Trap the Soul (It is Conjuration), and maybe even Awaken/Awaken Construct.

arguskos
2008-11-07, 04:16 PM
I'm going to have to pass on the Orb spells and the Trap the Soul, seeing as they have little to do with summoning critters. The Awaken spells I'll also have to pass on, those are more in line with a "creation" class (which I may create anyways).

Shadow Conjuration and it's Greater version I might consider. Good catch, thanks.

Raging Gene Ray
2008-11-07, 04:36 PM
You're welcome.

I thought that the Orb spells may not be in line with what you wanted, but then I noticed you had grease, stinking cloud, and the various Wall spells.

There are a lot of good Wall spells...Wall of Eyes...Wall of Souls...Wall of Gears...Wall of Mart...

Oh, uh...sorry, kind of lost my train of thought.

Anyhow, if you allow summoning of inanimate objects (like whatever grease and stinking cloud are made of), I figured you could allow summoning balls of energy.

Looking forward to your Creation class.

arguskos
2008-11-07, 04:41 PM
While true, those spells don't overshadow the class's purpose: killing people with fun summoned dudes. The Orb spells tend to do so, since they are better at killing dudes than summoned dudes are at killing dudes.

Though, I am glad you like the class, and I'll see what I can do about a creation class sometime soon. :smallbiggrin:

Raging Gene Ray
2008-11-07, 05:43 PM
Moving away from the spell list, I think that if Summoners really do focus on summoned critters, they should get some sort of bonus on Diplomacy checks, etc. to influence summoned/extraplanar creatures.

They should also have some sort of skill that works similar to Bardic Knowledge, only it would only be good for identifying summonable/extraplanar monsters and their strengths/weaknesses, so they'll be able to pick the right critter for the job.

EDIT: Along the same lines, I'd add a handful of divination spells like Know Opponent from the Spell Compendium. It's similar to the reasons for having Comprehend Languages and Tongues.

taltamir
2009-09-06, 04:16 PM
this webcomic is about a seer: http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2002-05-21

And it gave me an idea on how to make a viable pure divinition character.

The idea you mentioned with "alarm" and dodging makes it into too much of a monk. In fact it is a better monk than a monk, why is the monk losing years of training to control their natural life energy when they wear armor? makes no sense... but a seer deflecting an arrow makes sense, a seer being unable to dodge a blow that he knows is coming because the armor is too heavy also makes sense..

Anyways, tangent aside, the seer i have in mind could be useful in combat by allowing him to stun, daze, and otherwise attack the enemy's mind... how? at its core by forcing a vision... a quick forced vision could stun / distract some enemies. At higher levels he could force a scrying unto a targetting getting them to "see" all the pain and suffering they have caused. Imagine being forced to experience a possible future event... specifically you being captures by <X> and being tortured... Or see their death, or see the result if they oppose you, etc...

the seer thus becomes a battlefield control... and he can always stab someone while stunned.

As for abjuration... read this one
http://orion.comicgenesis.com/d/20031014.html

Basically, spell hacking.. abjuration is about control of SPELLS... at lower level they are as useless as ANY OTHER CASTER... but imagine the enemies surprise when their magical sword changes from a +1 sword to a sword of shoot fire at the person holding it or a sword of 200 degrees Celsius handle. Suppress enemy enchantment.. STEAL the enemies spells... etc.. If anything the abjurer would be the most powerful of casters...
DM: The lich king casts lightening at your cleric.
Abjurer: I catch it and throw it back at him.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-06, 05:33 PM
My Puppet Master class (see sig) was intended to be something along these lines. It's not really school-focused, per se, though, more role-focused - it has the Summon Monster line, and then it has a bunch of buffs (from a conglomeration of Abjuration, Transmutation, Evocation, and Enchantment). But I figure people in this thread might be interested in it.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-07, 06:13 AM
may i request a quick edit to bold the names of the class features in the descriptions? I keep getting lost in the text without anchors. Difficult to form oppinions under such circumstances.

Set
2009-09-07, 12:29 PM
Abjuration/Divination: Savant
Conjuration: Summoner
Enchantment: Bard
Evocation: Warmage
Illusion: Beguiler
Necromancy: Dread Necromancer
Transmutation: Spellweaver


Very cool stuff!

I could see an Abjuration-based caster being not only a master of counterspelling and negating the actions of spellcasting and spell-like ability using opponents, but also having the ability to dispel and remove more innate supernatural characteristics, functioning as a 'debuffer.' Spell typically seen as necromancy or transmutation, that weaken or cripple another, could be re-fluffed to function as abjurations, as the Abjurer denies the target those sources of strength. Unlike most casters, I could see an Abjurer absolutely being proficient in armor (at least light armor, and probably medium as well) and shields. He'd have all sorts of warding spells, too, but his spells would be designed for quick, desperate use, and not have a lot of complicated somatic components. Nobody wants to have to contort their fingers into a complicated hexagram while a sword is whistling towards their head, after all...

A purely Divination-based caster would, paradoxically, not look like much of a spellcaster at all, much of the time. She might stand there, in her robe, with her quarterstaff in hand, looking unconcerned, even distracted, as the warrior approaches, only to seemingly effortlessly evade his attacks (precognitive awareness of his incoming attacks) and then strike with uncanny accuracy to deliver surprisingly effective blows (precision-damage bonus, as she hits the weakest and most vulnerable points of a foe's body). She would similarly be able to anticipate and avoid magic with great skill (Reflex and Will saves would be her speciality, with Evasion a class feature). Her understanding of fate and destiny would also allow her to cheat fate a few times a day, to escape even dangers that would not normally be avoidable (Fort save effects, her kryptonite) and she would have divination-based attack effects that allow her to flood an enemies mind with information that it cannot assimilate or process, blinding it's senses, blurring it's perception or even causing it to perform an unexpected action (divination-fluffed versions of Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Displacement and Confusion). By expanding a foes consciousness, she can fill it's mind with so much overwhelming (and incomprehensible) data that it collapses, stunned, or even stricken unconscious. She could even cause someone to re-experience their worst pain or fear (or just generic buttloads of pain and fear, from other people).

"I have something for you. I don't want it any more. Eleven hours of pain. All at once. All for you..."


What's a neat aside to this is that the various 'Gish' classes also tend to be focused in certain directions. WotC has the Abjurant Champion, and there are at least three different 3rd party Necromancer/Warrior hybrids (Secret College of Necromancy's Death Knight, Scarred Lands Unfailing, Arcana: Societies of Magic's Moon Wraith Adepts), but there aren't a whole lot of Fighter/Wizard hybrids based around the other schools of magic.

Examples;

An illusion-based Glamer Knight, that weaves together shadow and light to conjure up plate mail and weapons of quasi-real substance, and can use effects like blur, displacement and invisibility defensively, and whose quasi-real sword ignores material armor and inflicts wounds that resound with phantasmally enhanced pain and shock.

A Conjuration-based Warrior, who tattoos mystical representations of beasts and elementals that he has bested in personal combat on his skin, and conjures up these creatures to fight alongside him. Alternately, a Sha'ir Dervish type character who has bound a genie *within himself,* so that he can use genie like powers of conjuration (various spells, including some normally not arcane, such as create food and water), and also materialize elemental spirits as combat companions.

A Transmutation-based Fighter, who looks like something off of the CharOp forums, constantly altering his body to assume characteristics of other creatures, such as Reach or Regeneration or whatever. He wouldn't just be able to alter his body, but also items in hand, so that he could be a chain-shirt-clad high-mobility two weapon fighter in one combat, and then shift to a longspear-wielding fullplate-clad 'tank' in another, depending on the circumstances. He could even change the material composition of his gear, to adapt for a fight against lycanthropes by transmuting his weapons to silver for the duration of the fight.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 12:41 PM
I'd give the summoner at least one conversation based class skill,.


I also support ditching alignment requirments. They make no sense outside of divine based classes, where they make minimal sense.

Also what to do about the Cleric/Druid?

taltamir
2009-09-09, 12:40 AM
A purely Divination-based caster would, paradoxically, not look like much of a spellcaster at all, much of the time. She might stand there, in her robe, with her quarterstaff in hand, looking unconcerned, even distracted, as the warrior approaches, only to seemingly effortlessly evade his attacks (precognitive awareness of his incoming attacks) and then strike with uncanny accuracy to deliver surprisingly effective blows (precision-damage bonus, as she hits the weakest and most vulnerable points of a foe's body). She would similarly be able to anticipate and avoid magic with great skill (Reflex and Will saves would be her speciality, with Evasion a class feature). Her understanding of fate and destiny would also allow her to cheat fate a few times a day, to escape even dangers that would not normally be avoidable (Fort save effects, her kryptonite) and she would have divination-based attack effects that allow her to flood an enemies mind with information that it cannot assimilate or process, blinding it's senses, blurring it's perception or even causing it to perform an unexpected action (divination-fluffed versions of Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Displacement and Confusion). By expanding a foes consciousness, she can fill it's mind with so much overwhelming (and incomprehensible) data that it collapses, stunned, or even stricken unconscious. She could even cause someone to re-experience their worst pain or fear (or just generic buttloads of pain and fear, from other people).

So you think the divination should get both the "monk like" abilities and the ability to cripple opponents? i guess that would :
1. make sense thematically
2. prevent it from being a one trick pony.

however, this means they all have to be scaled down somewhat to make it balanced... very nice though.

arguskos
2009-09-09, 12:56 AM
Hmm, Set and taltamir, you've given me some hardcore PrC and core class ideas.... :smallamused:

Here's my current set of things I need to fiddle about with:
-Expand the Savant into a more fleshed out class. I've never been super happy with it, though it's actually fairly good on it's own, it's just not where I want it. I'll probably leave it Abj/Div, since that fits the feel I want, but perhaps more instant wardings, in the vein of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, but not prismatically focused.

-Create a "redirection" style caster class. I'm thinking about this one in more details. It may not even be a caster, though I kinda specialize in casters. Frankly, I'll probably update all of these soon anyways.

-A PrC about all of those gishes. Perhaps they'll be full 20 classes, but I really doubt it. I might make them that, depending on my ability to care. :smallwink:

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 02:02 AM
A purely Divination-based caster would, paradoxically, not look like much of a spellcaster at all, much of the time. She might stand there, in her robe, with her quarterstaff in hand, looking unconcerned, even distracted, as the warrior approaches, only to seemingly effortlessly evade his attacks (precognitive awareness of his incoming attacks) and then strike with uncanny accuracy to deliver surprisingly effective blows (precision-damage bonus, as she hits the weakest and most vulnerable points of a foe's body). She would similarly be able to anticipate and avoid magic with great skill (Reflex and Will saves would be her speciality, with Evasion a class feature). Her understanding of fate and destiny would also allow her to cheat fate a few times a day, to escape even dangers that would not normally be avoidable (Fort save effects, her kryptonite) and she would have divination-based attack effects that allow her to flood an enemies mind with information that it cannot assimilate or process, blinding it's senses, blurring it's perception or even causing it to perform an unexpected action (divination-fluffed versions of Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Displacement and Confusion). By expanding a foes consciousness, she can fill it's mind with so much overwhelming (and incomprehensible) data that it collapses, stunned, or even stricken unconscious. She could even cause someone to re-experience their worst pain or fear (or just generic buttloads of pain and fear, from other people).
I really like this.

Also, may I suggest that the Diviner be Wis-based arcane spellcasting?

arguskos
2009-09-09, 08:54 AM
Hmm. To represent the "flashes of insight" perspective? I can dig it.

Set, you don't mind if I wholesale nick your ideas and start crafting something, do you?

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-12, 08:39 AM
May I just thank you for this thread. I fully intend to use these classes in place of Wizards in my next game. Never really liked adventuring Wizards, after all what self respecting book nerd goes tromping off into the wilderness to fight Dragons?

Abjuration/Divination: Savant
Conjuration: Summoner
Enchantment/Illusion: Beguiler
Evocation: Warmage
Necromancy: Dread Necromancer (+Cure Spells)
Transmuter: Dunno about Spellweaver, not really my thing. Might swipe some of SurlySeraph's ideas and try making one myself.
Generalist: Sorcerer (Heritage based bonuses, maybe some kind of penalty to balance they're versatility).

Thanks again.

arguskos
2009-09-12, 01:07 PM
K-B, I made a real Transmutation specialist you might like: The Rearranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314). taltamir is playing one in an IRL game of mine right now, seems to like it a great deal. Check it out. :smallamused:

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-12, 02:38 PM
K-B, I made a real Transmutation specialist you might like: The Rearranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314). taltamir is playing one in an IRL game of mine right now, seems to like it a great deal. Check it out. :smallamused:

I like it. We have a winner :smallbiggrin: Thanks again.


Oohh, unlimited flesh to stone... I could definitely see this being fun, with a 'death artist' who turns everyone the party kills into statues and stores them in a portable hole or bag of holding or something, marking them with arcane mark before doing so.

I also love this idea. I will steal it.

Milskidasith
2009-09-12, 02:43 PM
Mastery of Summoning can be used to give 3 creatures you summon the Saint Template? That seems... fairly powerful. Then again, it's a problem with the Saint template, not the ability.

Set
2009-09-12, 03:39 PM
Set, you don't mind if I wholesale nick your ideas and start crafting something, do you?

Please do. I'm not doing anything with those ideas atm.

Love the Grazz'atar. One of the coolest I've seen here!

arguskos
2009-09-12, 07:13 PM
Mastery of Summoning can be used to give 3 creatures you summon the Saint Template? That seems... fairly powerful. Then again, it's a problem with the Saint template, not the ability.
So... the issue? It's level 20. Other wizards can do other things of that level of power, and really, it's more an issue of the Saint template. The ability is thematic and powerful, as befits a level 20 capstone.

Admiral Squish
2009-09-12, 07:23 PM
...CRAP! I have spent half the day homebrewing a summoner base class. Granted, the mechanics are completely different, but now it looks like I stole the idea from you!

arguskos
2009-09-12, 09:42 PM
...CRAP! I have spent half the day homebrewing a summoner base class. Granted, the mechanics are completely different, but now it looks like I stole the idea from you!
Dude, sounds awesome. Please, post it, I'd love to see it. :smallamused:

Iferus
2009-09-15, 05:02 AM
I love this project. It makes the arcane spellcasters a lot more interesting :)

Now bear with me, because this is going to sound stupid. See, I was thinking: wouldn't it be cool to be able to make these six/seven classes back into a generalist mage? Here's how that would go:

Arcane Affinity(ex):
At level 2, a {class name} attunes his newfound arcane skill to any he might previously have from {other class names} classes. Caster Level may be added together, the spells per day pool may be added together, and this level of {class name} and every {class name} level hereafter will increase spells known for said other classes. When taking a level of one of these other classes, spells known progresses as if the character had gained levels in that class instead of this one. This ability may cause the character to get spells known of levels which he cannot cast spells (spells per day "-"); this changes to spells per day "0" so bonus spells will apply.


This will make the different mages feel related in a nice way :)

Iferus
2009-09-16, 03:34 PM
So I've been thinking about Bards doing the enchantment but not getting up to level 9 spells... My conclusion was that most of those higher level spells are overpowered anyway. Mind control is more of a psionics thing anyway..

But what about psionics? Is it on par with these specialised, fluffed casters?

arguskos
2009-09-16, 08:18 PM
In my experience, yes. Psionics tend to work well with these classes. It all works out well. Then again, there's a good amount of potential for stuff to go badly, since psionics are very much a Tier 2 class in general.

Iferus
2009-09-17, 02:39 AM
Ah, the Tiers. Glad you brought them up. I've seen them mentioned a couple of times, but I never got around to asking what they really are. Care to explain?

(Of course I understand what the intended meaning is, but I would like to know where the terms came from)

Iferus
2009-09-17, 03:18 AM
Spellnets. Just read it.

So at level two, I can boost my entire party with Bear's Endurance, Bulls Strength and all those spells? That's overpowered.

If you still want to incluide these nets, you should elaborate on how these nets are used. Is it a mental action to place it somewhere, or does it need to be trown? Is it always a circle? Can a character get out of it?

Is it me, or is a soulnet with ten spells on it a bit overpowered? I mean, ten or twenty negative levels... that's a lot.


Also, on the summoner, I'm afraid the summoned cohort is a bit too strong. How about limiting it to cohort rules from the leadership feat?

DragoonWraith
2009-09-17, 03:48 AM
Ah, the Tiers. Glad you brought them up. I've seen them mentioned a couple of times, but I never got around to asking what they really are. Care to explain?

(Of course I understand what the intended meaning is, but I would like to know where the terms came from)
A Tier for Every Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119814&highlight=tier)

Not the origin, but I couldn't find a link to the original (I think it was on Wizards' forums, and finding anything there now is... not fun). Anyway, the idea is that there is a severe difference in the power of various classes, and this is a decent way of quantifying that. Certainly not without a lot of controversy over certain tier levels, and in all cases is assuming highest level of optimization, which may be meaningless in an individual game (and probably is in most), but in general I think it's pretty good. Of course, I've only even read about half the classes and have played a great deal fewer more.

Eloel
2009-09-17, 03:59 AM
First post in the link you gave has the original (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=21479288d97bd2362f44db54c483bd 58&topic=1002.0)

Iferus
2009-09-17, 06:35 AM
Thanks!

Back onto the tier 3 spellcasters now...

arguskos
2009-09-17, 10:56 AM
The Summoned Cohort is meant to be better than average, since the Summoner really needs that extra guy to help out in combat. He relies on creatures that are, on average, weaker than the combats he's in, and so he needs one that is actually decent to help stand up to his foes.

The Spellweaver is, as of this writing, incomplete. I've done a good amount of work on the class since then though. Do know that spellnets are not overpowered, since they take several rounds to imbue and use.

To elucidate upon the spellnet mechanic, since I think you are misreading it, here's how it works. We'll use Bob, the level 4 spellweaver, to illustrate.
-Bob, Chris (level 4 fighter), and Jim (level 4 rogue) encounter Alex (a Hill Giant). Chris charges, Jim flanks, Bob decides, "hey! Let's spellnet this up!"
-On his first turn, Bob tosses a bear's endurance into the net. On his second turn, Bob uses a bull's strength.
-During all this, Chris and Jim are short a party member (Bob's busy) and are fighting a Hill Giant all alone. They aren't happy.
-On his third turn, Bob finally triggers the net, and casts it over the entire combat, designating Chris, Jim, and himself as targets (because the spells let you choose what you affect). Suddenly, this fight is a LOT more fair.
-They slay the Hill Giant, thanks to that spellnet.

Remember, spellnets can only have 1 spell/SPELLWEAVER level, not caster level. To get spellnets takes 4 levels of spellweaver, so it's not exactly a dip ability either.

As for soulnets, it's a capstone, and it only does 2 negative levels per round, with a save. Yeah, not seeing the issue with that one, since any other caster can do any sort of crazy stuff before then that outshines it greatly. It's just a mass debuff, which was the whole point. Further, note that the soulnet and deathnet do NOT store spells ala the spellnet, they're different effects.

As for the spellweaver as a class, I think I'll actually be redoing it up sometime soon, and posting it on it's own. It's a buff-focused gish class, meant to provide a solid base class alternative to the Duskblade, who is much more damage output focused.

Akal Saris
2009-09-24, 10:41 PM
Bit of a necromancy (Is 6 days too long on this forum?), but what approximate tier level are you shooting for with these characters? The summoner in particular seems to be around T2 compared to the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, given that his spell list includes nearly every battlefield control spell a wizard can get, as well as a few others, and his powers are very front-loaded: Summoner 6 is all you really need before jumping into a prestige class, maybe Summoner 13 at the latest.

It might also be worth going through the BoVD/BoED and Spell Compendium for the spells in there that summon specific creatures to serve you for a long duration, like a pegasus for 1 year or a nightmare for 1 week, and using those to replace spells like sleet storm, stinking fog, and the teleportation series of spells. Though I do like the inclusion of the wall spells =)