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WinterSolstice
2008-10-31, 11:21 PM
If cost were suspended, what benefits would the arcane/divine spells and magic items laid out in the 3.5 core books confer onto everyday life?
I'm more interested in low-to-mid level spells and items, rather than the world-breaking enchantments that are available at higher caster and wealth levels. Lets say between spell levels 0-3 with most of the emphasis on 0-1.

A few I thought of on my own (all assuming that only caster level, not cost is a factor):

-Bricks and cobblestones enchanted with Prestidigitation to keep city streets constantly clean

-Silent Image creating "Neon Signs" and "Holograms" along busy streets (Think a fantasy Times Square)

-Liberal use of the Mending spell to fix all manner of damaged goods

-Using Light or possibly Daylight on lanterns to keeps streets illuminated.

further suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2008-10-31, 11:27 PM
Ebberon.

[/topic]?

afroakuma
2008-10-31, 11:29 PM
My campaign setting actually runs on this stuff. Pest-killing combs, unseen butlers, cold drinks, quick-warming food and current-powered coaches for the wealthy.

Cuilnary preparations of poison cleansing, flavor enhancement and color augmentation.

Turbine-driven grain mills.

Edit: But yeah, that's generally Eberron, what you're talking about.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-10-31, 11:32 PM
Take a look at Eberron.

Low-level magic items are everywhere. In Sharn, for example, there are everbright lanterns everywhere, permanently illuminating the city. All of the bridges and catwalks have feather fall spells on them, set to go off if someone falls.

In the rest of the world, people use magic trains to get from place to place, as well as airships and magically-enhanced normal ships. Communication is done magically, and is fast. Anyone can walk in off the street, pay a few gp, and get a cure spell cast on them.

Etc., etc., etc.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-31, 11:43 PM
Or, y'know a Tippy Society in which everyone has infinite power from Decanter-driven waterwheels, teleportation circles that solve transportation concerns, and traps of Cure Disease for health care.

Oh, and Create Food & Water to solve hunger.

Ganurath
2008-11-01, 12:00 AM
0 Cleric:
Purify Food and Drink has an obvious function, as do Light and Mending. Create Water fountains are also good, especially in a desert city.

1 Cleric:
Command is a nice choice for law enforcement, and Endure Elements to maintain a temperate environment in residential buildings is always nice. A Summon Monster courier system is also a viable option, using either Celestial Owls or Fiendish Ravens depending upon the alignment of the local powers. This is especially true with the extended duration of the Summoner domain's +2 caster level.

2 Cleric:
Have the symbol of leadership in the city be an item that lets you cast Augury a limited number of times per day, and the city will be run very smoothly. Zone of Truth is a solid choice for the court system, especially if the lawmage can Command the defendant to answer questions. "Answer!"

3 Cleric:
If the city is nongood, and has a steady supply of black onyx, a viable postmortem option could be skeleton militia via Animate Dead. They're skeletons, so they won't be recognized by relatives, and help round out the local military so fewer living people need to volunteer and/or be drafted. Create Food and Water by that level feeds fifteen people at minimum PER CASTING. If said cleric has the Creation domain and gets a bonus spell for 3rd... that's 54 people with happy bellies, or 84 if the caster is 6th level. Remove Disease is obvious, Speak with Dead to investigate murders, and Stone Shape for construction.

0 Wizard:
Dancing Lights cast skyward can be used as a police alarm signal with watchtowers throughout the city overlooking the skyline. Mending has obvious uses in repairs, and Prestidigitation can be used for keeping... everything clean, really.

1 Wizard:
Hold Portal make a fine door lock. Mount is good for couriers for messages too detailed for summoned deliveries. Unseen Servant in the less desirable labor positions... Imagine a society where nobody shovels crap! Floating Disk actually becomes useful for hauling loads, and the actual labor can be done by a Mount! Color Spray is excellent for breaking up riots or bringing down mobs without actually killing anyone. Somehow, there's a way to cast Feather Fall on anyone making a long drop. Proximity trigger traps in the gutters?

2 Wizard:
Detect Thoughts is the true love of any law enforcer in low levels. Levitating a flat panel beneath a Floating Disc makes a rather interesting elevator that holds 100 lbs per caster level. Also, nothing says economy housing like Rope Trick!

3 Wizard:
Tongues, because the marketplace can be troublesome when a language barrier is present. Also, Hold Person is a viable tool when that drunk just won't stop disturbing the peace.

Frosty
2008-11-01, 12:02 AM
How does the Tippy-verse solve the problem of overpopulation?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-01, 12:05 AM
How does the Tippy-verse solve the problem of overpopulation?Greater Teleport and Teleportation Circles to other Spheres, as well as Planeshift and Gate to the various infinite planes.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-01, 12:08 AM
Greater Teleport and Teleportation Circles to other Spheres, as well as Planeshift and Gate to the various infinite planes.
Or more tried-and-true methods: Arena's, gang warfare, abused slaves, poor work environments, make necessities expensive enough that the excess population starves off....

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-01, 12:12 AM
Or more tried-and-true methods: Arena's, gang warfare, abused slaves, poor work environments, make necessities expensive enough that the excess population starves off....Yes, but those don't allow you to spread Mindraped versions of yourself to every corner of the multiverse.

WinterSolstice
2008-11-01, 12:20 AM
Ebberon.

[/topic]?

I'm a huge fan of Eberron :smallbiggrin:. It's been my preferred setting since it was launched. The question I posed was more focused on the implications of pervasive low level magics in societies and the specifics of how they'd be implemented.
True, Eberron has Everbright Lanterns and Skycoaches, and the Lightning Rail, Feather Fall Tokens, etc.. but I'd be willing to bet there's a fair number of uses that the designers neglected to mention, or intentionally left out in keeping with the "tone" of the setting.

Randel
2008-11-01, 12:39 AM
The streetlights with everbright lanterns to provide ample light at night

enchanted garbage cans with Uneen Servant, they patrol the streets and pick up litter. (may require supervision of a sort)

Economy housing that has a rope-trick like spell build into a door. Go to an apartment complex that is basically lots of hallways with doors to featurless extradimensional space. You may have to use a matress to sleep on and in the event of some sort of magical disruption then be prepared for your room to cease to exist and dump you into the hallway.

A restaurant sort of like the sushi-go-rounds in japan. Have a series of tables and then disks of force like from Tensers Floating Disk but smaller. They float around and carry plates of food and drink created via Create Food and Water. Prestidjitation spells make each dish look and taste like a different real food. Customers can either pay a flat price for an all-you-can-eat or they collect the plates and glasses they eat from and then pay the person who picks up the dishes. A prestidigitation can clean the dishes and purify food could keep the food on the line fresh forever.

Camping is now more convenient with Secure Shelter in a magic item that makes a house for you to sleep in. A modified version of the spell with like 1000 gp in material components (like lumber and bricks) can basically fabricate a house in minutes.

One bard with a Lyre of Building, as long as he never has to sleep and is skilled enough could build entire cities out of forests. A bard Lich could frolic through the elven woods, turning their homeland into shopping malls and parking lots within days if not hours and environmental issues could get even crazier then they are now.

Medicine is enhanced with magic and some diseases can be outright eradicated by mass use of remove disease and such. Death loses its sting with raise dead spells but the cost for casting them can be tough when those casting them learn to set up payment plans and other ways to make a profit for this.

Unsavory governments can use an undead labor force or other magical ways to either exploit the people on the bottom rung of society or to make it tough to get a job. Unions may protest the use of Unseen Servant in some industries and Vampire payment plans could used on those without money.

Big Brother can watch you with scrying spells now and divination spells can be used for security purposes.

Domination spells or other enchantments used on workers to either enhance productivity or make outright slaves of people.

Vampires create 'blood banks' where they pay people for blood donations. One means of income for the truly desperate.

Lycanthropes who can spread their curse to others may form cults and gangs from the downtrodden who cant get job other ways or want something to give them a boost in power to defend against monsters or other dangers. Could also become part of a sort of Super Soldier program.

Colonization of other planes or worlds... create a colony on the plane of fire and send a ton of Decanters of Endless Water there to cool the place down.

Permanent magic items of Underwater Breathing allow people to live underwater and create underwater cities. Researching ways to make people naturally aquatic could make all sorts of things possible to deal with possible land shortage.

Interracial marriage is a big topic, arguments on diluting bloodlines or giving their children opportunities are argued on either side. Some speak rumors or fanatics to intend to breed super-hybrids with great powers or other fanatics on the other side who speak of racial superiority and genocide.


Eh, okay I got a bit off-topic on that some of those but still theres lots of potential for magic in a campaign setting.

vicente408
2008-11-01, 01:37 AM
One bard with a Lyre of Building, as long as he never has to sleep and is skilled enough could build entire cities out of forests. A bard Lich could frolic through the elven woods, turning their homeland into shopping malls and parking lots within days if not hours and environmental issues could get even crazier then they are now.

This is a druid's worst nightmare, and a perfect BBEG.

elliott20
2008-11-02, 12:31 PM
How does the Tippy-verse solve the problem of overpopulation?

simple, procreation is not allowed since he probably has figured out a way to allow people to cheat death indefinitely.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-02, 12:53 PM
How does the Tippy-verse solve the problem of overpopulation?
If you have access to those Erotica books, you get access to some anti-conception and advanced family-planning stuff. Not counting that it would be easier to give people superior education.

hmm.. Would those people from Harry Potter be a high magically society?

Copacetic
2008-11-02, 12:54 PM
Death is a thing of the past, because your retirement fund is now your "In case I get stabbed" fund.

Food is either mass produced via Heroes Feast or other spell, or farmed by skeletons. Who never have to stop working. EVER.

Luxuries are everywhere, and the population sky rockets, forcing people to move on to other planes, even with Rope Trick housing and such. Water Breathing plus Elemental Plane of Water= Infinite housing area.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-02, 01:00 PM
I am working on a world with 'synergistic magic'. Basically, someone discovered a principle that allows magic to be worked together.18 people using the magic of a 0 level cantrap, could create a level 9 spell. More could go epic.
This means the world is a mixture of high and low magic.High because this mass produced magic is extremely common, and common spells are easily available in scroll form. Low only the most esoteric learn more then is necessary to do cantraps oneself.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 01:20 PM
:eek: Greater dispel/antimagic-field think about the effect on places like underwater cities and where all work is done by magic stuff (fun if you made a campaign where this happened to the entire world where everybody had always been using magic item and now nothing works)

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 01:22 PM
Don't forget that traps could be used to eliminate the need for there to even be casters as long as they won't break. Actually, that is a good point, Keveak. I suppose Anti-Anti Magic Fields could be developed.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-02, 01:24 PM
:eek: Greater dispel/antimagic-field think about the effect on places like underwater cities and where all work is done by magic stuff (fun if you made a campaign where this happened to the entire world where everybody had always been using magic item and now nothing works)
Like industrial countries if an EMP Nuke exploded in the upper atmosphere.
Dispel magic would have to be very, very, strongly controlled.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 01:25 PM
Don't forget that traps could be used to eliminate the need for there to even be casters as long as they won't break. Actually, that is a good point, Keveak. I suppose Anti-Anti Magic Fields could be developed.

They can be countered too. The problem would be what you said that there's no need for casters anymore and then "poof" everything stop working and you have to start over as barbaric tribes (Imaginne the traditions they would have in those tribes).

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 01:27 PM
That could make a really interresting world if you wanted to have it with just warriors and non-prepared Casters. Do you think Sorcerers and Favoured Souls would be classed as valuable or feared to the point where they would be wiped out in a world like that? (I got the Anti-AMF idea from something that came up in a GLOG plot a while back.)

afroakuma
2008-11-02, 01:29 PM
I figure planar cities are more like this. Eberron is low-level with a few impressive facilities. My own campaign setting treats these items as luxury commodities, and keeps them out of the hands of common people. Higher-level effects grow out of control rather quickly.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 01:29 PM
Like industrial countries if an EMP Nuke exploded in the upper atmosphere.
Dispel magic would have to be very, very, strongly controlled.

If mages where unusefull nobody would think of it, until the lone sorcerer who can't control his powers is born. Stopping the BBEG fro getting the scrolls of Dispel would be a great adventure though.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 01:32 PM
That could make a really interresting world if you wanted to have it with just warriors and non-prepared Casters. Do you think Sorcerers and Favoured Souls would be classed as valuable or feared to the point where they would be wiped out in a world like that? (I got the Anti-AMF idea from something that came up in a GLOG plot a while back.)

I'm thinking feared since magic failed them and killed almost everyone.

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 01:41 PM
Netheril in early Faerun fits Failure of magic, as does post-spellplague Faerun, which fits fear of magic.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 01:49 PM
That would probably be the case, Keveak. I'm guessing Dragon Shamans would be quite important once they got to level 11 due to their Touch of Vitality skill. I'm not sure about other classes which can heal other then Crusaders (which only deal with HP damage for the most part). Druids and Spirit Shmans could be interresting here due to how they probably wouldn't have any real connection to civilisations, so that may survive in secluded areas.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 01:54 PM
That would probably be the case, Keveak. I'm guessing Dragon Shamans would be quite important once they got to level 11 due to their Touch of Vitality skill. I'm not sure about other classes which can heal other then Crusaders (which only deal with HP damage for the most part). Druids and Spirit Shmans could be interresting here due to how they probably wouldn't have any real connection to civilisations, so that may survive in secluded areas.

Yeah probably (but I've only read PHB MM DMG and complete arcane) but who should train them if there hasn't been a need for them for a long long time (again an interesting guest: Find a book about this stuff)

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 02:02 PM
I was thinking that there would always be a need for healing magic: Dragon Shamans can be trained by Dragons if I remember correctly, Crusaders are a Tome of Battle class (they use infinitly rechargable maneuvers in combat, and they are excellent combat healers due to being able to attack and heal at the same time), and my idea was for Druids to be hidden away.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 02:04 PM
I was thinking that there would always be a need for healing magic: Dragon Shamans can be trained by Dragons if I remember correctly, Crusaders are a Tome of Battle class (they use infinitly rechargable maneuvers in combat, and they are excellent combat healers due to being able to attack and heal at the same time), and my idea was for Druids to be hidden away.

Druids probably would be hiding in the deep forests from the urban city people dunno about the rest of them.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 02:07 PM
Actually, Dragons are highly magical creatures, so they probably won't be available to train DSs.:smalleek: I'm guessing that only Magicless versions of classes with limited casting would be available with Bards being non-existant as well.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 02:23 PM
Actually, Dragons are highly magical creatures, so they probably won't be available to train DSs.:smalleek: I'm guessing that only Magicless versions of classes with limited casting would be available with Bards being non-existant as well.

That sounds like a job for adventures, (as I alreadymentioned finding a scroll or book about magic might be an great guest)

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 02:26 PM
I wonder if anyone else would be willing to play a campaign with that setting?

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 02:44 PM
I wonder if anyone else would be willing to play a campaign with that setting?

Me, it sounds fun why:confused:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 02:47 PM
I was just wondering because I'd like to try playing in a campaign like that as well.:smallsmile:

Trizap
2008-11-02, 02:56 PM
and to create contrast and conflict, there would be a warrior tribal society's or something that only have clerics or druids cause they are necessary for healing who want to bring down the magical society,seeing it as corrupt or something.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-02, 03:04 PM
and to create contrast and conflict, there would be a warrior tribal society's or something that only have clerics or druids cause they are necessary for healing who want to bring down the magical society,seeing it as corrupt or something.

Interesting but it would kinda make it a lot easier to get magic back (unlesh... A cunning mission behind enemy lines).

Lyndworm
2008-11-02, 05:02 PM
Anyone here ever read The Council Wars series by John Ringo? Basicly, it's about the ultimate magical society mentioned here (actually, it's just sufficiently advanced technology), but a the first war in 4,000 years (I think) breaks out and one of the by-products is basically an antimagic field. It's a very, very bad thing for everyone involved.

Wikipedia Description (Spoilered for length, not spoilers.)
The series is set several thousand years in the future, in a society with advanced nanotechnology, teleportation, and other technologies which effectively are magical in the sense of Clarke's law made real, all controlled and coordinated by an Artificial Intelligence called Mother. Initially the world is a near Eden. War has been gone for millennia. The most aggressive, curious or adventurous humans have left Earth to explore space or terraform new worlds. The abundant power and technology allows long lives, powerful genetic engineering that includes the ability to turn into a Merman or Dolphin, the ability to have homes on mountain tops in the Himalayas or in deep volcanos, and free flight. Despite—or perhaps because of—an idyllic world, technology is stagnant, no great art has been produced in generations, and the human population is dropping slowly.

There are elves and dragons as in many fantasy novels. But the elves are the results of long-ago military genetic engineering programs and the dragons are genetically engineered sentients, originally designed by Disney. No explosives or even high-pressure processes are possible because Mother's protocols do not permit them. Mother simply siphons off the energy of an explosion or high-pressure gas.

Mother, who controls all the systems on Earth, as well as in near-Earth space and the Wolf 359 colonization project, is controlled by a Council of thirteen Key Holders who can change system directives and, if unanimous, change even her kernel-level programming. The Council has split into two philosophical factions, and is in a battle for whose ideals will dominate the future of the human race. That faction split has turned to war: something humans have not had for over a millennium. The two factions split into open war only after the faction advocating extensive changes to society to reverse the decline in population fails to persuade the rest of the council and resorts to violence.

In the struggle for power, the Council Members cut off all the power to everyone else, including all the computer-controlled nanotech that made their lives of leisure possible. The result: Humanity plunges immediately from utopia to the Dark ages. This event is known as "The Fall." The series follows the resultant chaos and destruction that follows, and the war itself, fought not just with advanced technology, but swords, cavalry, and legions.
The first book in the series is There Will be Dragons.

There Will be Dragons (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/11-UntotheBreachCD/UntotheBreachCD/There%20Will%20be%20Dragons/There_Will_be_Dragons.htm) readable for free on the Intarweb.

There Will be Dragons (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/11-UntotheBreachCD/UntotheBreachCD/There%20Will%20be%20Dragons/There_Will_be_Dragons.doc) downloadable for free on the Intarweb.

Zack

elliott20
2008-11-02, 10:10 PM
when dealing with a highly magical society, you pretty much have to put aside the game spell list first as what's more important is not the spells themselves, but the concept behind how magic effects everything. You'll need to examine some axioms first.

in many cases, you have to consider two major factors: spread and power.

spread dictates how easy it is to wield/utilize magic. It basically dictates how easy it is for someone to find magical items or become magic users themselves.

power dictates how powerful the magic people wield can be on average. Standard D&D assumes a fairly powerful magic base and with a little bit of work, any individual can become very powerful mages. (In fact, the tippy-verse model even has a standard procedure for training super powerful magic users.)

depending upon the combination of the two, you can extract some principles of magic within the world. if we just use low, medium, and high for each scale, we have nine basic kinds of magical set ups. (incidentally, the Tippy-verse is a good example of a low spread, high power world)

I'm going to skip over talking about the various spreads at lower and medium levels. But at high level the spread becomes especially important. a magical society is really quite doable at medium spread high power, high spread low power, high spread medium power, and high spread high power.

medium spread, high power: there is a barrier of entry, sort of like the high cost for going to grad school. but entry into using magic, be it as knowledge or as simple technological convenience, is entirely possible and with some work the return is fantastic. as a result, MOST people who can become mages WILL become mages. You'll still see people rely on more mundane methods of doing things and choose professions that is essentially magic-less. But for those people, they chose that profession because they don't have a choice. and if they HAD a choice, they'd be using magic as well.

high spread, lower power: this is starting to approach eberron levels. everyone has seen magic, everyone knows of magic. Heck, everyone probably knows or owns a magical thing or two. The thing is, it's just not that powerful. So while magic can replace little things that make life a little bit more convenient (i.e. a prestidigitation that can keep your counter a little cleaner), generally people will still be fighters, experts, rogues, etc. People will still rely on mundane ways of doing things since magic just doesn't do enough.

high spread medium power: entering the magical profession and using magic is easy, like basic education from K-12. While the return is not high fantasy, it is substantial enough that MOST people will be able to use magic in some capacity. A small minority of people will not utilize it as much not because they have no choice, but because perhaps there is currently no magical solution for the problem they have, and they fill a niche. Daily life is starting to resemble future-tech more and more. skills like UMD is almost essential for daily life functioning. magic, however, does not break that final entry of making life future-tech like. most people will use magic because it's just easier than doing things the old fashion way. But some fundamentals in reality will not be replaced. life is pretty convenient, but we're not talking about cheating death and fundamentally changing the cosmos on a daily basis. Anti-magic fields and disjunctions are tantamount to EMPs and are probably highly illegal.

high spread, high power: basically a high tech society. magic is integral to everyday life. The laws of physics are broken daily through near fantastic means and it is taken for granted. Teleportation circles are probably common means of conveyance, and to quote Merlin from Excalibur (1981) "death is but a dream". Many fundamental values we have in our days would have to be re-examined and probably discarded. things like procreation might not be necessary anymore since people are probably capable of living indefinitely. societal values will change to such a stark degree that you will find this society have more in common with the the advanced society from the game Alpha Centauri than most fantasy societies. Everyone will be a mage of some sort, or at least know how to alter the fabric of the world with ease. a lot of control systems will have to be put in place to keep everybody from blowing up the world on a whim.

---- spells -----

okay, now that you've selected your world spread and level, NOW you can pull the spells list back in. Why? because depending upon the world you're in, the spell list might or might not need revising.

med spread, high power: keep the spell list intact, maybe add a couple low-med level spells to reflect the needs and innovation of the society.

high spread, low power: keep most low level spells, but make it available to a lot of people, or just allow half-caster classes like paladins and hexblades.

high spread, med power: low-med level spells are all in. (with probably some high level spells) the list will need to be revised to reflect the development of spells that are use to control some of the potential world breakers at med level. half-casters like adepts are all the rage and probably replace the commoner NPC class. UMD would probably be a class skill for just about everyone. That or people would all be putting ranks in it. you'll still see some fighters and barbarians and other non-magic users. but they are rare and probably have pretty niche reasons for being that way.

high spread, high power: all spells are in, and you'll probably need to add in a bunch more. In fact, you're going to have to do a lot of revisions to make sure the world still makes sense. understanding the threat of anti-magic fields and dispel magic spells, people will probably have developed NEW ways of counter acting what is basically a terrorist tactic spell. It's highly unlikely for anyone in this society to be anything BUT full casters. Everyone will have as many ranks in UMD as possible as their daily lives need it. (Though, like I said, full casters are probably fairly common and are probably ALL over the place) here we don't think of magic as a specialized shop. Hell no, we categorize it like we would of products in our world. You might see an insurance agency who will draft protection plans that can cast contingency, teleport, and raise dead as a packaged deal. You might swing by the corner store and buy a wand of create Thai food and water for the kids on the way home from work, cuz they've been having a yen for thai lately. This is a world where magic is set on a production line and reproduced on a massive scale.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 12:09 AM
What are the effects of D&D magic on society?

The first thing you have to understand is why societies form. The simple answer is protection. People come together in the first place and work together primarily because it increases their odds of survival. Nations and governments are this basic fact institutionalized. The flip side of this is that nations, governments, and societies that can't protect their members or increase their odds of survival do not last.

Now let's look at the spell teleportation circle. (spoilered below for your convenience)

Teleportation Circle
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: 5-ft.-radius circle that teleports those who activate it
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot. Once you designate the destination for the circle, you can’t change it. The spell fails if you attempt to set the circle to teleport creatures into a solid object, to a place with which you are not familiar and have no clear description, or to another plane.

The circle itself is subtle and nearly impossible to notice. If you intend to keep creatures from activating it accidentally, you need to mark the circle in some way.

Teleportation circle can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent teleportation circle that is disabled becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.

Note: Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the circle and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle.
Material Component

Amber dust to cover the area of the circle (cost 1,000 gp).


With this single spell you have just made it impossible to enforce borders. You simply can't defend large swaths of territory and don't have any interest in doing so. You don't need trade routes, you don't need ports, and most importantly strategic depth is impossible. You simply can't create a buffer zone that will provide warning of an attack. Even if both sides in a conflict have the ability to cast teleportation circle the attack has a 10 miniute window where they can act unimpeded. It's simply impossible to defend your small towns and hamlets. Your citizens are only secure when you can keep enough forces on guard at the location. This means that you defend the largest cities. You don't patrol the trade routes, none exist.

The next effect of this is that geographical location has nothing to do with political allegiance. Cities on different continents are just as close together as cities 20 miles apart in terms of travel time. My most defensible city is in the mountains but I need the fields that are 500 miles away. So I defend both locations and ignore the intervening space.

Now what about farming? Well a reseting Create Food and Water trap costs you 7,500 GP and can feed 216,000 people per day. Throw in a prestidigitation trap for 250 GP and the food and water can taste like the finest feast. Starvation just became a thing of the past. Everyone who lives in the cities can be fed easily and cheaply. Now people will still want natural grown food, but it just became a fine delicacy that the rich get. That steak costs 100 GP a pound. It's a status symbol. Incidentally, the elimination of farming just freed up around 90% of the population.

Healthcare? A Heal trap on the same location as the prestidigitation trap just eliminated disease and sickness. The regenerate trap eliminated missing limbs and broken bones.

Education? Assuming you don't just want to go with students wailing away on each other with merciful weapons (RAW an overpowering encounter and with a healing trap you can fight a dozen bouts a day easy), well look at Detect Thoughts. 12 seconds to tell how intelligent a person is. If you want to go really out there, look at Mind Rape. You can give a person decades worth of knowledge in 6 seconds, RAW this doesn't turn into skill points but it's still something to think about.

Production of goods? A fabrication trap is a factory. And so long as you are producing more than 100 of an item it's actually cheaper for the RAW materials (they count as a material component for fabricate and you pay 100 times the cost of the material component for a resetting trap). Clothes, utensils, backpacks, buckets, all common goods are producible for free. They are all identical but that isn't a real problem.

Transport around the city? Permanent Animate Object and you can make subway trains. Or use Teleportation Circles.

Communication? You and another person go to the Telepathic Bond trap and then the Solar hits you with a permanency. Better than a cell phone.

What does all this mean? That peoples biggest concern is boredom.

But all of this is what happens in the cities. What about out in the wild areas in between the cities and enclaves? Your vanilla greyhawk type setting. Low level, low magic, monsters are a big problem, wizards and clerics are rare, etc. This is where those who live outside the cities exist.

I've made a setting that does all of this. Ask question's and I'll provide my answers.

Now this isn't the only possible answer but it is the best one if you still want to play D&D. Yes, in the cities the guards are Advanced Shadesteel Golems and the cities make Sharn look low magic and tiny, but out in the wild is where those who want adventure or can't live in the cities go. And when the PC's eventually reach level 15+ you have a ready made supply of challenges. Sure, they could go and destroy whole armies in the wilds but they can't even take out a traffic cop in the cities.

I didn't go quite as far in my setting with tech in the cities (those in charge suppress some of it to provide things for the populace to do), but what I have described is the end result of D&D magic (assuming no epic magic).

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 02:40 AM
There is a spell called Scholer's Touch which lets you read a book by touching it. Magecraft also grants a +5 bonus to Craft checks to earn money over the course of a week, so education would be really easy with traps which could use those spells (they are both only level 1).

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 02:53 AM
The problem is that RAW you only get better through gaining XP. I suppose you could say that reading/attending school was a challenge to be overcome.

Cybren
2008-11-03, 02:58 AM
one has to wonder where wealth is generated from when no one is actually working anymore.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 02:59 AM
Can't people gain Exps by going about their daily lives? In this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71841) thread, someone claimed that non-adventurers gain 500 Exps/year, but they didn't list their source. Also, wealth can be made from producing other things (to be fair, Fabricate Traps would take care of that as well).

Cybren
2008-11-03, 03:05 AM
Can't people gain Exps by going about their daily lives? In this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71841) thread, someone claimed that non-adventurers gain 500 Exps/year, but they didn't list their source. Also, wealth can be made from producing other things (to be fair, Fabricate Traps would take care of that as well).

Any sort of resetting creation trap will destroy modern (or pre-modern) notion of wealth and power. We're looking at a technological singularity, here.

elliott20
2008-11-03, 03:17 AM
one has to wonder where wealth is generated from when no one is actually working anymore.
Just because the basic needs such as food and water are taken care of doesn't mean an economic just ceases to exist. People are still needed to maintain the existing facilities, (Okay, so by RAW, a properly crafted item will NEVER break. but that's just defying common sense) create new ones when old ones die or expansion is required, and perform all sorts of work. And don't forget that entertainment is STILL something people will need.

People will simply start redefining markets through whatever needs they might have. Sure, BASIC stuff will be taken care of. But then, who the hell is gonna just want the basic stuff? why settle for a ho-hum normal set of clothes when you can clothes that say, self-dry or change shape or do other amazing things?

If you really want to take economic principles into this, you'll notice that magical items will start to get cheaper and cheaper as magic becomes easier produce and replicate. There is no rule for people getting BETTER at creating magical items other than them having more XP to burn, but that is how the economics would work. and also, people will come up with new applications for the same technology... magic. These will then create new products and new markets and from there on out the whole cycle begins again.

Now, if you want to play it by RAW? yeah, Tippy-verse is pretty airtight. Magic in RAW is absolute, it is clearly defined in price, power, and in just about every aspect. Magic does not deteriorate, it does not have a half-life, and it has no adverse side effects what so ever. In essence, it's what we wish all of our technological advances could be like. And by RAW, wealth is not created by economic principle. For some reason, it just matches your power level. that or you roll skill checks all day long. But it doesn't actually handle wealth very well. Why? Because once you start using magic like this, most skills in the skill list become obsolete. (Except for things like jump and what not) hell, half of the professions out there can be easily eliminated by magical items, and really in this society you can't really be all that productive without using magic. But once you get to that point, there is no RAW to handle any of that, and any more speculation of the matter will quickly run into severe conflicts.

But quite honestly, such a world is just not internal consistent with our own empirical knowledge of how economics and people work. Yes, yes, I get it. we're talking magic here, so it's not realistic to begin with. But that's the point. Even if magic were to be real, it should be treated as another resource and one that humanity would react to in realistic ways. Unfortunately, realistic != RAW.

random11
2008-11-03, 03:18 AM
There is also another thing to think about.
Since most technologies developed out of a certain need, if the magic is not a new invention, the culture is expected to be extremely efficient, but also primitive and completely depended on magic.

For example, if simple wooden buildings can be enchanted to be non leaking, heat preserving and stronger, why would anyone bother to build something out of bricks?

Why would anyone need a magic-powered mill if you can simply crush the grains without a mill, or just magically create the food in the first place?

If you have magic for explorations, food and logistics, why would anyone think about building even simple boats?

elliott20
2008-11-03, 03:26 AM
There is also another thing to think about.
Since most technologies developed out of a certain need, if the magic is not a new invention, the culture is expected to be extremely efficient, but also primitive and completely depended on magic.

For example, if simple wooden buildings can be enchanted to be non leaking, heat preserving and stronger, why would anyone bother to build something out of bricks?

Why would anyone need a magic-powered mill if you can simply crush the grains without a mill, or just magically create the food in the first place?

If you have magic for explorations, food and logistics, why would anyone think about building even simple boats?

answer: they don't. they simply find new ways to use the same magical principles to do things better/easier/cheaper. as of right now, a wand of create food and water can theoretically create an infinite amount of food. But it can only create a certain amount given a certain amount of time. if subjected to realistic laws of economics, it is only a matter of time before someone decides that they want their wands of create food and water to say, create more food in the same round, or create BETTER food in the same round. Or in Tippy's example, add other spells to it to enhance the food created. i.e. cast prestidigitations to give food different tastes to match different palates, or maybe they'll use an empowered version of it to create MORE food.

the research of such and the maintenance and expertise to do these things will in and of itself create new jobs and sustain the economy.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 03:33 AM
I suppose city walls would still need materials to function, so mining would be necessary, as would training peopleto maintain the traps. In regards to housing, tents would do the job well enough if they were water-proffed and there were Endure Elements traps set up.

Ganurath
2008-11-03, 03:38 AM
There is also another thing to think about.
Since most technologies developed out of a certain need, if the magic is not a new invention, the culture is expected to be extremely efficient, but also primitive and completely depended on magic.

For example, if simple wooden buildings can be enchanted to be non leaking, heat preserving and stronger, why would anyone bother to build something out of bricks?

Why would anyone need a magic-powered mill if you can simply crush the grains without a mill, or just magically create the food in the first place?

If you have magic for explorations, food and logistics, why would anyone think about building even simple boats?Two reasons: Improved Counterspell and Dispel Magic. No matter how peaceful a society there is, malcontents are inevitable. In a society where intellectual behavior is encouraged, such a malcontent will study to be better able to destroy the magics upon which this society relies. This is possibly why the OP emphasized low level spells: Such devices would be easy to replace, and those that make them easy to discipline if they ever get a head for power.

elliott20
2008-11-03, 03:38 AM
for people who can't afford it, a creation trap will probably be more than enough to create a house for them to live in. (Or at least create the materials they need to build it) they can then hire someone to come in and add the required enchantments to make it more comfortable/sturdy/etc.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 03:41 AM
City walls? That's what Wall of Stone is for. Or wall of Iron. And there are the ever increasing permanent walls of force. And ever increasing permanent prismatic walls.

Yeah, in my setting some things were deliberately left undone by magic. Those in power realized what some things would do to society and chose not to implement them. Factories for example. The fabrication traps produce the raw cloth, metal, wood, etc. but the workers have to shape it into finished products. Why does no one go and use fabrication traps to produce the finished products? Well because every city trained wizard thinks that it's been tried and found to be unstable. And since those in power are the ones with the armies of golems and wizards and dragons they can pretty easily make any attempts appear unstable.

If you go for a society where magic does produce the finished goods then you have an idea driven economy. Being able to make a bowl isn't worth anything, unless your the Da Vinci of bowl making, coming up with the idea of a bowl in the first place is worth everything. Entertainment is likewise well rewarded. And those who need a more stimulating life have the wilds as a natural safety valve.

elliott20
2008-11-03, 03:43 AM
City walls? That's what Wall of Stone is for. Or wall of Iron. And there are the ever increasing permanent walls of force. And ever increasing permanent prismatic walls.

Yeah, in my setting some things were deliberately left undone by magic. Those in power realized what some things would do to society and chose not to implement them. Factories for example. The fabrication traps produce the raw cloth, metal, wood, etc. but the workers have to shape it into finished products. Why does no one go and use fabrication traps to produce the finished products? Well because every city trained wizard thinks that it's been tried and found to be unstable. And since those in power are the ones with the armies of golems and wizards and dragons they can pretty easily make any attempts appear unstable.

If you go for a society where magic does produce the finished goods then you have an idea driven economy. Being able to make a bowl isn't worth anything, unless your the Da Vinci of bowl making, coming up with the idea of a bowl in the first place is worth everything. Entertainment is likewise well rewarded. And those who need a more stimulating life have the wilds as a natural safety valve.
though really, in your verse, who the hell needs walls really?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 03:44 AM
Two reasons: Improved Counterspell and Dispel Magic. No matter how peaceful a society there is, malcontents are inevitable. In a society where intellectual behavior is encouraged, such a malcontent will study to be better able to destroy the magics upon which this society relies. This is possibly why the OP emphasized low level spells: Such devices would be easy to replace, and those that make them easy to discipline if they ever get a head for power.

That there would be high treason. And the punishment for all felonies is Mind Rape. The police have access to divination magic of the highest order and will always have more assets than the criminals.

Unless you can create Disjunction effects with a 100 mile radius and that don't need Line of Effect then you aren't a threat to society as a whole.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 03:44 AM
I forgot about magic walls. That would be a good way of keeping people employed as well, Emperor.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 03:45 AM
though really, in your verse, who the hell needs walls really?

What else would keep out those in the wilds? :smallwink:

Or the other city when they get bored enough to decide that a nice war would liven up the month and their golem legions could use some exercise?

elliott20
2008-11-03, 03:49 AM
Or the other city when they get bored enough to decide that a nice war would liven up the month and their golem legions could use some exercise?
that right there I think is the height of boredom. "well, I'm bored. Let's go to war with neighbors for some fun shall we? Let's make a game out of it!"

people will then gather in stadiums and watch their favorite golem team clash against each other.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 03:52 AM
That is a good point. Now that I think about it, gladatorial contests would be much easier in this sort of setting if there was a lot of non-lethal weapons available, if not NLD fields. Even if these didn't exist, Heal, Regenerate or Revivify traps would pretty much eliminate the chance of anyone dying from these fights.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 03:55 AM
that right there I think is the height of boredom. "well, I'm bored. Let's go to war with neighbors for some fun shall we? Let's make a game out of it!"

people will then gather in stadiums and watch their favorite golem team clash against each other.

Actually did that. And the dragon jousting. And the sky diving. And the assassination game. The PC's were a group who had grown up in the wilds, let's just say it took them a while to get acclimated to the new culture.

I mean at graduation you get killed and then put on the True Resurrection bier. Society feels that everyone should experience death so that they know what it's like in advance. And well since about half of them choose not to be raised it also keeps population levels under control.

Oh yeah, another common item: The Contingent Greater Teleport that every city dweller has (courtesy of Craft Contingent Spell) that teleports them directly to the True Resurrection bier upon their death.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 03:56 AM
What is a bier, and how did the Assassination game work? (I'm guessing it was just murdering people who were then brought back soon after, right?)

Ganurath
2008-11-03, 04:20 AM
That there would be high treason. And the punishment for all felonies is Mind Rape. The police have access to divination magic of the highest order and will always have more assets than the criminals.

Unless you can create Disjunction effects with a 100 mile radius and that don't need Line of Effect then you aren't a threat to society as a whole.Actually, the OP caps the spell levels at 3rd, so... no?

In such an instance, such a criminal would take that into consideration. Are intelligent undead vulnerable to Mind Rape?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 04:30 AM
What is a bier, and how did the Assassination game work? (I'm guessing it was just murdering people who were then brought back soon after, right?)

The bier is an item that True Resurrects anyone placed on it (just a True Res Trap).

The assassination game was played for 3 months out of the year. If you wanted to play you signed up either as an assassin or target and if you were an assassin you had a spell cast on you that would notify you of your contract, your current score, your current rank, and would tell the judges when you completed a contract. Targets got a spell that would let the judges know when they were killed and if/when they left the city. If you left the city you and your contract were placed on hold.

The targets tried to survive as long as possible, the more days the survive the higher their rank. The assassins tried to complete contracts, their assassinations were judged on multiple criteria (collateral damage, number of targets eliminated, uniqueness of the assassination method (more points for making a piano fall of the target than for just running up and stabbing him), etc.).

At the end of the season the top people got all kinds of stuff. Oh yeah, and you were assigned targets based on your skill level (no level 20 wizards getting a level 1 fighter as a target).

random11
2008-11-03, 04:39 AM
Two reasons: Improved Counterspell and Dispel Magic. No matter how peaceful a society there is, malcontents are inevitable. In a society where intellectual behavior is encouraged, such a malcontent will study to be better able to destroy the magics upon which this society relies. This is possibly why the OP emphasized low level spells: Such devices would be easy to replace, and those that make them easy to discipline if they ever get a head for power.

Our evolution of technology was very similar.
We had defenses, someone invented counter measures, we developed a new kind of defense etc.

In a magically based society, it is likely that the same evolution will happen, but with magic instead of technology.
Someone will create spells immune to dispel, a stronger dispel will be created...

If played by RAW, you are right. Dispel is can ruin everything, and there is very little a culture can do about it, forcing it to base at least the military on technology.
But I still think that besides the military, very little will be depended on technology if there is a faster, cheaper and easier alternative.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 05:46 AM
Thanks for explaining, Emperor. Did anything happen to whoever had the lowest ranks? (I can imagine that using a True Reincarnation Bier could be amusing.)

Bouregard
2008-11-03, 05:53 AM
Our evolution of technology was very similar.
We had defenses, someone invented counter measures, we developed a new kind of defense etc.

In a magically based society, it is likely that the same evolution will happen, but with magic instead of technology.
Someone will create spells immune to dispel, a stronger dispel will be created...

If played by RAW, you are right. Dispel is can ruin everything, and there is very little a culture can do about it, forcing it to base at least the military on technology.
But I still think that besides the military, very little will be depended on technology if there is a faster, cheaper and easier alternative.

There could be a ban of all dispel mechanics except for law enforcment.
If your party enters the city they get searched for such scrolls/books.

and anyone find to have memorized or carry such a spell is sentenced to death.

Would be funny for a party ifthey know that memorizing such a spell could really help them but on the other hand if a patrol randomly cast command on your casters and force them to say if they have such spells...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 06:01 AM
Whats the point? Your going to mess around with a society that spends a quarter of the year practicing assassination and sees it as a sport? Where the leaders command entire armies made up of hundreds of thousands of Advanced Shade Steel Golems and the magical resources that this entire society implies?

If your stupid enough to try and destroy society then you better have defenses capable of preventing you from being brought before the tribunal with the transport travelers clause of wish.

random11
2008-11-03, 06:07 AM
There could be a ban of all dispel mechanics except for law enforcment.
If your party enters the city they get searched for such scrolls/books.

and anyone find to have memorized or carry such a spell is sentenced to death.

Would be funny for a party ifthey know that memorizing such a spell could really help them but on the other hand if a patrol randomly cast command on your casters and force them to say if they have such spells...

Another idea is to rely more on multiple spells instead of a single one, requiring more dispels to pierce the defenses.
For example, multiple layers of "wall of X" spells instead of a single wall.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-03, 08:22 AM
:eek: Greater dispel/antimagic-field think about the effect on places like underwater cities and where all work is done by magic stuff (fun if you made a campaign where this happened to the entire world where everybody had always been using magic item and now nothing works)
That would be the equivalent to terrorist attacks to power plants, that can stop whole cities from working.

And back to the undead workers idea... It just reminded me of this other DC story, where a city of sorcerers rise their ancestors as Grundy-like zombies to do their heavy chores... very freaky. I think it was a ret-conned Clarion (bum bum bum) the Witchy Boy story, where he's a farm boy, instead of an all-powerful smartass kid.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-03, 09:39 AM
That would be the equivalent to terrorist attacks to power plants, that can stop whole cities from working.

And back to the undead workers idea... It just reminded me of this other DC story, where a city of sorcerers rise their ancestors as Grundy-like zombies to do their heavy chores... very freaky. I think it was a ret-conned Clarion (bum bum bum) the Witchy Boy story, where he's a farm boy, instead of an all-powerful smartass kid.

Reminds me of the DnD computer game Dragonshards there the lizardfolks necromancers did that.

By the way I was thinking about the governent would not just ban Dispel but take every book or scroll with it so no-one could use it.


No if everything is magic it would destroy stuff like the walls and buildings not just cut of the power.

AND in time wizards would have made so much that they werrent needed anymore and long ago stopped been trained.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 09:47 AM
Would that be likely to happen? I'd have thought they would still be useful, even with tons of traps.


(Keveak, did you get the PM I sent you yesterday?)

Mina Kobold
2008-11-03, 09:52 AM
Would that be likely to happen? I'd have thought they would still be useful, even with tons of traps.


(Keveak, did you get the PM I sent you yesterday?)

WOOHO a PM (my 7th) I went to bed before that. Sounds fun but we need players.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 09:59 AM
What classes would you allow which have magic-type abilities? I was thinking of allowing Tome of Battle classes and Dragon Shamans with Warlocks, Sorcerers and Favoured Sould being feared and no other casters being available.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-03, 10:05 AM
What classes would you allow which have magic-type abilities? I was thinking of allowing Tome of Battle classes and Dragon Shamans with Warlocks, Sorcerers and Favoured Sould being feared and no other casters being available.

Ehh I don't have any other books myself than Complete Arcane (my team use the DMs books) They don't sell them anymore can you show me some link or something?

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 10:10 AM
Meet me on http://www.gabbly.com/www.giantitp.com if you want to talk about the game.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-03, 10:15 AM
Reminds me of the DnD computer game Dragonshards there the lizardfolks necromancers did that.

By the way I was thinking about the governent would not just ban Dispel but take every book or scroll with it so no-one could use it.


No if everything is magic it would destroy stuff like the walls and buildings not just cut of the power.

AND in time wizards would have made so much that they werrent needed anymore and long ago stopped been trained.
Whew. For a minute I thought DC was being original.

Heh.... Bug of the Millenium, wizards style, when things start to go bad, and there's no more properly trained wizards around.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-03, 10:19 AM
Meet me on http://www.gabbly.com/www.giantitp.com if you want to talk about the game.

Wierd webside. I'll make an account now

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 10:21 AM
You don't need an account (you just click on the link and you can talk to other people on there).

Dervag
2008-11-03, 10:25 AM
No if everything is magic it would destroy stuff like the walls and buildings not just cut of the power.Wait, what?

Is this a new rule change or have I just forgotten the rule? I always thought that if you used magic to create something permanent and nonmagical, it stays around. So if I use magic to build a house using Wall of Iron or something, and someone casts Dispel Magic on my iron house, it doesn't collapse or disappear.

Am I wrong?


AND in time wizards would have made so much that they werrent needed anymore and long ago stopped been trained.Possible, but unlikely. First of all, people will always think of new things to need; second of all, magic items get destroyed in accidents sometimes; third of all, as the population grows it will need more magic.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-03, 10:46 AM
You don't need an account (you just click on the link and you can talk to other people on there).

Well I made one anyway. By the way I had to restart my computer and when I returned I couldn't see your posts anymore

Ganurath
2008-11-03, 02:44 PM
Whats the point? Your going to mess around with a society that spends a quarter of the year practicing assassination and sees it as a sport? Where the leaders command entire armies made up of hundreds of thousands of Advanced Shade Steel Golems and the magical resources that this entire society implies?

If your stupid enough to try and destroy society then you better have defenses capable of preventing you from being brought before the tribunal with the transport travelers clause of wish.Dimensional Shackles? Being Atropus? Enough Contingent Meteor Swarms to drop a Great Red Wyrm?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-03, 04:08 PM
Dimensional Shackles? Being Atropus? Enough Contingent Meteor Swarms to drop a Great Red Wyrm?

See, we reach the point where you practical have to be a level 20 wizard. And level 20 casters who start messing around with things like the city quickly learn that all of the other casters in the city of millions don't like that. Besides, a mechanic needs to exist for cities to fall. And rogue casters who get incredibly lucky works.

What happens when all the magic in a city goes out all the sudden? Millions of people who can't live on the land in the area. So they move out into the wilds and spread out into much smaller groups so that they can get enough food to live. The closest city could be several thousand miles away and they don't have a map or even no what direction it's in any more precisely than "north east".

And the other cities aren't going to help out, it's not worth the cost to rebuild the fallen city and what are they going to do with another several million people? Now they will spare no expense in punishing the perpetrator (unless it was another city getting rid of an enemy on the sly) but that's more to make an example than anything else.

Mina Kobold
2008-11-04, 09:41 AM
Tempest Fennac are ou there?

On a sidenote if wizards of that high level started doing that stuff then it would lead to other doing the same and end with that no-one was allowed to it both by law and by common sense.

random11
2008-11-04, 10:45 AM
I'm surprised so many people who suggested undead skeletons as a cheap workforce, gave examples from the food industry (like working in the fields).

Would you really eat something that involved decaying skeletons in the process?
Try to imagine a skeleton serving you your burger and asking "do you want fries with that?"
Yuck...

Mina Kobold
2008-11-04, 10:51 AM
I'm surprised so many people who suggested undead skeletons as a cheap workforce, gave examples from the food industry (like working in the fields).

Would you really eat something that involved decaying skeletons in the process?
Try to imagine a skeleton serving you your burger and asking "do you want fries with that?"
Yuck...

If it has been going on for a while nobody cares anymore (like eating snails and liver)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-04, 11:27 AM
I'm surprised so many people who suggested undead skeletons as a cheap workforce, gave examples from the food industry (like working in the fields).

Would you really eat something that involved decaying skeletons in the process?
Try to imagine a skeleton serving you your burger and asking "do you want fries with that?"
Yuck...Cultural Indoctrination. Cockroaches are a perfectly reasonable food in many countries. I can't even think about people eating them without wanting to puke. People used to suck marrow out of bones, but most people would look at you as if you were crazy for calling that a delicacy today. Heck, a Skeleton can be boiled clean each night and doesn't need a hairnet. Sounds like the perfect waiter to me.

elliott20
2008-11-04, 08:54 PM
besides, the only difference between them and most food servers now is that they have less acne.:smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-11-04, 09:02 PM
Cultural Indoctrination. Cockroaches are a perfectly reasonable food in many countries. I can't even think about people eating them without wanting to puke. People used to suck marrow out of bones, but most people would look at you as if you were crazy for calling that a delicacy today. Heck, a Skeleton can be boiled clean each night and doesn't need a hairnet. Sounds like the perfect waiter to me.

Is it bad that I can think of both cockroach-eating and marrow-sucking with no issues immediatley after eating?

elliott20
2008-11-04, 09:08 PM
Is it bad that I can think of both cockroach-eating and marrow-sucking with no issues immediatley after eating?

nope, you're not the only one. I'm Chinese.

mabriss lethe
2008-11-04, 10:04 PM
Training in certain classes would probably be banned or very heavily restricted to law enforcement or military applications. Spellthieves, I'm lookin' at you.

Dervag
2008-11-04, 10:32 PM
Cultural Indoctrination. Cockroaches are a perfectly reasonable food in many countries. I can't even think about people eating them without wanting to puke. People used to suck marrow out of bones, but most people would look at you as if you were crazy for calling that a delicacy today. Heck, a Skeleton can be boiled clean each night and doesn't need a hairnet. Sounds like the perfect waiter to me.Problem:

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, human beings have an instinctive fear of skulls and skeletons. And this isn't like their reluctance to eat cockroaches. It's more like the fear of darkness or falling. Our monkey brains are hardcoded to be afraid of those things. As Terry Pratchett put it, skulls make people uneasy because:

1)Whatever turned the previous monkey into a skull might still be around, and
2)They look like they're laughing at you.

Well, (1) more than (2).

A large fraction of your customers will find skeletons unnerving regardless of culture, unless you posit a very unusual fantasy culture. Unseen Servants (as per spell) would be a better choice.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-05, 02:28 AM
I agree that US would be better for some things. Would skeletons be better for harder manual labour, though?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 02:38 AM
That's what warforged are for. Or Animated Objects.

But what do you need manual labor for in the first place?

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-05, 02:58 AM
That is a good point. I just thought it would be useful to have things that could do that in the event of an anti-magic emergency.

Coidzor
2008-11-05, 03:17 AM
Humanoid forklifts for when circumstances might need something other than teleportation devices in place?

What's another use for the corpses of the deceased that don't come back (or aren't allowed to)?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 03:40 AM
That is a good point. I just thought it would be useful to have things that could do that in the event of an anti-magic emergency.

Now why would you do that? Magic doesn't fail. :smallwink:

Assuming that you want a setting that you can actually play D&D in and give the players a role in then you want to overlook things like that.

And there is always the warforged. Think of warforged as robots that help around the house. Everyone has at least one and when it starts misbehaving you just bring it in for a Mind Wipe (otherwise known as Mind Rape). All at once you have a bodyguard, servant, secretary, house cleaner, butler, and helper.

As for Humanoid forklifts, why not just make regular shaped forklifts and then use an animate objects casting made permanent?

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-05, 03:47 AM
I just tend to prefer to be prepared in case something goes wrong (things could easily backfire in a really high magic setting).

elliott20
2008-11-05, 03:51 AM
by RAW, Tippy is right. Magic does not fail, ever. Without outside influences actively trying to sabotage it, magic will forever be functioning, regardless of time. Hell, the physical item itself might get too rusty and dull long before the magic that is put there will go away.

again, reason why I think a realistic magical society would pretty much force you to move beyond the D&D RAW.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 03:56 AM
I just tend to prefer to be prepared in case something goes wrong (things could easily backfire in a really high magic setting).

Oh agreed, that's why the emergency assembly line is working.

A C
B---------DE

A is a create food and water trap
B is a fabrication trap that makes adamantium boxes.
C is a Quintessence trap that fills the box under it with quintessence.
D is a fabrication trap that makes adamantium tops for the boxes.
E is a teleportation circle that leads to a warehouse.
The ---- line is a doveyor belt that has had a permanent animate objects spell cast on it.

This continuously produces food and stores it in stasis until such a time as it is needed (an emergency).

Doomsy
2008-11-05, 05:19 AM
Magical Von Neumans, anyone? I'm sure Tippy has a design for them. Or could whip one up quickly. Or magical Gray Goo scenarios.

Fizban
2008-11-05, 06:27 AM
Magical grey goo? Living spells are magical goo, I'm sure some living spells are grey. No current way to get it to replicate itself though, unless you want to make a living Origin of Species. Which you could do with Origin of Species.