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Tempest Fennac
2008-11-02, 05:55 AM
A while back, someone in the Roleplaying section of forum which I'm a member of was asking about what our ideal race would be like, and I came up with a race of humanoid foxes called Vulpines. Please could you tell me if they are balanced enough to have an LA of 0?

Humanoid (Vulpine).
-2 Str, +2 Wis
Medium sized
Cold Endurance feat
Low-Light vision
Talk with Animals at-will (extraordinary ability)
Immune to ageing effects
Automatic languages: Common and Sylvan
Favoured Class: Druid

10% of them are some sort of Druid, 30% are Clerics, Wizards, Archivists, or Bards, 20% are Rangers, Rogues or Scouts and the rest are likely to be Experts, possibly with Adept or Magewright levels.

*+2 to saving throws to resist [Cold] spells, can exist in temparatures of between 0 and 90 degrees F without needing Fortitude saves. Source: Frostburn sourcebook.

Apperance: Vulpines are typically 5' to 5'8" tall while weighing 80- 130 Lbs on average (males and females are about the same size as each other). They are basically humanoid foxes with digigrad legs and the same sort of hands that normal humans have. They have think red, brown, grey, white or black fur while typically limiting their clothing to loose robes while going barepawed (they don't need a lot of clothing due to their thick fur).

Culture: they are typically Neutral Good while classing protecting nature as the most important thing there is. Vulpines typically mate for life, but all of the cubs are raised by the whole tribe. Groups typically consist of 50-100 individuals while being lad by an elected adult. Most Vulpines prefer to use magic rather then violence due to their lack of physical strength. Most of them are Druids, but Archivists and Wizards are quite common along with Rangers and Experts (not all Vulpines are cut out to become spellcasters, but their edication system means that almost all of them are skilled in at least a couple of areas). Their close ties to nature result in them being able to talk with animals while avoiding the ravages of ageing. (They become adults at 15 while dieing of old age after they reach the age of 80. They don't get any bonuses or penalties from getting older). They tend to worship good dieties who are connected to the sun, nature and healing such as Pelor and Ehlonna.

Most Vulpines have at least 3 or 4 ranks in 1 profession or Craft skill due to how they all tend to contribute to their communities economies, which tend to be geared towards subsistance (some tribes have extensive trading networks with other non-evil races, but they tend not to monopolise trade). Vulpine settle ments are normally found in forests (where most of the tribe members live in tree-houses), or on grasslands (where most of the buildings are tents, apart from more perminant structures, which tend to be made out of wood or stone depending on the surrounding resources). Vulpines typically raise chickens for eggs rather then meat, and they grow a lot of fruit and vegetables while using sheep as their main source of meat (they are omnivours, but they tend to eat more meat then anything else). They sometimes hunt other animals as well. Everlasting Wands of Create food and water are sometimes used to eliminate the need for agriculture or hunting. Each settlement will have a bath house which includes toilets (Vulpines tend to realise the importance of cleanliness, and they have descent irrigation skills thanks to their easy access to Create Water spells).

Vulpines don't have a particularly advanced legal system; most of them tend not to have any interests in hurting other creatures unless it's necessary, and the communal economic system has resulted ina lack of personal property. trials are often quick thanks to Zone of Truth and Detect Thought spells, and punishments typically aren't particularly harsh. (Eg: a thief hay have his/her tail, lower legs or head shaved bald, or they may be locked in a pillory or some stocks for 2-4 hours. Starting fights or damaging property could result in more shaving, being turned into a lave for a few days using Dominate Person spells, being polymorphed or cursed for a couple of weeks or being locked in a dirty prison cell for up to a week, while killing someone would result in execution by decapitation). Repeated offences can result in a Vulpine being exiled and/or losing their tail (this is rarely done due to most Vulpines being too attached to their tails to want to risk losing them).

In regards to arts and crafts, Vulpines are known for favouring sculptures over other mediums. They tend to spend their leasure time with things like competative sports, weapons or magic training or reading. Music-wise, they tend to favour wind and string instruments over percussion and keyboard-based instruments. Vulpines typically celebrate New Moons due to seeing them as a time for new starts. Other holidays will typicaly vary depending on the tribe's dominant religion. In regards to items, most communities will have a descent stock of potions, scrolls and wands. Getting hold of melee weapons and heavy armour from Vulpines is normally hard due to how they often don't need these items for themselves.

Relationships with other races: Vulpines tend to get on with Fey creatures and Elves due to their shared interst in nature. They also typically get on well with normal animals due to their ability to talk with them without magic. Any races which don;t use nature responsibly are likely to find themselves at odds with Vulpines.

Ageing: If the DM wants to use the standard D&D ageing system, add the mental stat bonuses at ages 35, 60 and 80 (normally, I wouldn't add these due to how the penalties don't apply to Vulpines). To calculate a Vulpine's maximum age roll a d10 and add his/her Con modifier to the total. Due to being trained from childhood, all classes have 15 as a minimum starting age.

Vulpine Paragon Class:

BAB: Rogue. HD: d8. Class skills: Survival, Spot, Listen, Balance, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Craft, Handle Animal. Skill points: 4. Good saves: Reflex+ Will.

1: Duration of all Summon spells increaded by 2 rounds, Scent.
2: +1 Druid spellcasting level, Darkvision.
3: +1 Druid spellcasting level, +2 Wis.

Please could you guys tell me what you think of this race in regards to balance?

Here are the 4th Edition stats:

Average Height: 5'0"-5'8"
Average Weight: 80- 130 Lbs
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence.
Size: Medium.
Speed: 6 squares.
Vision: Low-light.
Languages: Common, Sylvan.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Heal.
Cold Endurance: Cold Endurance- +2 to saving throws to ongoing cold damage, or any effect caused by a power with the cold keyword. Vulpines can exist in temparatures of between 0 and 90 degrees F without needing Fortitude saves.
Speak with Animals: able to communicate with any Animal or Magical Beast as if they speak a language which the Vulpine knows.
Nature's Purification: Daily power.

Nature's Purification:

1/Day (Healing).
Target: 1 creature within 4 squares.
Effect: Gives 1 creature an immediet saving throw to recover from a disease, blindness, deafness or poison with a bonus of 1 at level 1 increasing to 2 at level 11 and to 3 and level 21.

The fluff is the same as it is for the 3.5 Version, except that they have Shamans, Rangers and Wizards as Favoured Classes.

(I don't play 4th Edition D&D, so I'm not sure how balanced that is.)

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-11-03, 03:52 AM
First thought I have when I see this is that the first little block showing all the stats should probably be a list with bullets or dashes or something. That's just personal preference, though.
It also seems a little underpowered, but only a little. The only thing I would add would be a couple +2 racial stat bonuses(such as Heal, Listen and Spot, to coincide with the 4e version).

The vulpine paragon looks good to me, nothing really to say that might help it.

Can't really comment on the 4e stats, since I know so very little about 4e balance. Overall though, looks pretty good.:smallbiggrin:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 03:54 AM
Thanks.:smallsmile: I was worried about the "Animal Talk" ability possibly being overpowered (admittedly, that's why I added the "language deficiency" feature).

arguskos
2008-11-03, 03:59 AM
I've already seen these guys and given you my thoughts Tempest, but for the sake of posterity, I figured I'd toss them out there again. :smallwink:

1. Great flavor, lots of work done, very fun and interesting.
2. I'm in agreement with Krimm. They are a touch weak, though I think that the flavor helps offset that somewhat. They are easily on par with most other +0 races (not counting stuff like whisper gnomes, humans, other silly powerful races), so that's not an issue.
3. I have no idea about 4e stats. :smallfrown:

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 04:17 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I wanted them to be as balanced as a standard LA 0race, so I'm pleased they are that powerful.

KKL
2008-11-03, 04:59 AM
3.5 Vulpines are perfectly fine as an LA 0 race.

On the other hand for 4e...If possible, I'd suggest a different stat array than Int/Wis, as that would seriously be the wet dream of Orbizards everywhere. It's cool if you keep it though. Cold Endurance...I'd rather you phrase it "+2 to saving throws to ongoing cold damage, or any effect caused by a power with the cold keyword."

As for the daily power, I have no idea what to do with it at all so I won't comment.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 07:32 AM
Why don't you know what to do with the Daily Power? It just allows an extra saving throw against certain negative statuses. I'd sooner keep the stats as they are while not changing the Cold Endurance wording. (I picked those stats because they fit, and I tend to see stepping around certain combinations because they are great for 1 build as pointless, and the CE ability is designed to protect them from cold weather as well.)

Starsinger
2008-11-03, 12:34 PM
Why don't you know what to do with the Daily Power? It just allows an extra saving throw against certain negative statuses. I'd sooner keep the stats as they are while not changing the Cold Endurance wording. (I picked those stats because they fit, and I tend to see stepping around certain combinations because they are great for 1 build as pointless, and the CE ability is designed to protect them from cold weather as well.)
On the 4e stats:

I don't think I've ever seen a racial power that was a daily before. If you're going to keep it a daily, make it automatic recovery. If you switch it down to an encounter power it seems fine.

And while I can't speak for KKL, I agree with him. I'd much prefer Cold Endurance to read something like this: "Cold Endurance- +2 to saving throws to ongoing cold damage, or any effect caused by a power with the cold keyword. Vulpines can exist in temparatures of between 0 and 90 degrees F without needing Fortitude saves."

Speak with Animals is pretty nice. The ability to talk with animals is something that I, as a DM, am always leery about, because I don't tend to think "Okay what would this opossum know?" until it comes up.


There are no favored classes in 4e, but with the stats (Wis/Int) Vulpines make great Clerics, Wizards, and get secondary stat bonuses to Paladins, Fighters, Warlocks, and Warlords if that's helpful.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-03, 01:01 PM
I gave them 3 Favoured Classes due to reading a Gnoll article where it mentioned that they made good Warlocks, Rogues and Rangers, so I included it here. Wouldn't having that Daily Power as an Encounter power make it broken? I'll think about changing the CE wording.

erikun
2008-11-05, 10:35 PM
Aha, found this thread again. Comments time, then.

First, I've actually seen you link to this race before. I will admit that I'm not quite sure about the seperate abilities. It sounds like they're based off of the Arctic Fox, rather than foxes in general, correct? If so, I'd think their coats would change coloration with the seasons. If you wanted to give them a +2 to Hide, that would certainly make sense (and give a skill bonus, at that). I'm not too good to judge balance with the other classes; I would actually consider a gnome slightly better.

Then again, free Talk with Animals can become quite busted in some areas. Of course, I'm reminded of a D&D comic where the PCs found a Ring of Speak with Plants and ended up declaring war against a forest...


Humanoid (Vulpine)
-2 Str, +2 Wis
Medium sized
Cold Endurance feat
Low-Light vision
Talk with Animals at-will (extraordinary ability)
immune to ageing effects
Languages cost twice as many points to learn
Automatic languages: Common and Sylvan
(a +2 Int modifier is needed to learn 1 bonus language at level 1)
Favoured Class: Druid

Did I miss anything?


As for the flavor text, I'm weary of any civilization that requires a large number of high-level casters to function, or a magical self-renewing item to function (Everlasting Wands of Create food and water). Or, to be more specific, I think that if a race is concentrated around one magical item, then it should be very central to their concept.

Slightly off-topic commentary...

....suddenly, I'm thinking of a bee-people who use a powerful psi-crystal to communicate telepathically. New colonies can't be formed until a new psi-crystal is formed and passed onto the new queen. Boy, that was random, but gives you an idea of what I mean by a "central concept" to a race.


As a side note, I find it odd that they raise chickens for eggs but lambs for meat. Most of the information I know about foxes indicate their penchant for poultry.


As for the 4e stats, their bonuses make them good Wizards, Clerics, and ironically, Spellmages. You may want to change the Perception bonus into a Stealth one, if you decide to change the 3e version in the same way.

A 4e "saving throw" is very different from the 3e version. In 3e, a save is a way to avoid damage; in 4e, the same thing is called a "defense". (ie. Reflex Defense rather than Reflex Save) The "saving throw" is not reserved to avoiding ongoing damage. I would actually change it to "+2 to defenses against cold-based attacks". The (windsoul) Gensai actually has a feat that makes them immune to slow/immobilization from cold powers, so you probably don't want to step on the same toes (especially with a weaker version).

Again, Speak with Animals has the potential to be broken, depending on the setting, especially with a high dipolmancy.


Average Height: 5'0" - 5'8"
Average Weight: 80 -130 Lbs
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence.
Size: Medium.
Speed: 6 squares.
Vision: Low-light.
Languages: Common, Sylvan.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Heal.
Cold Endurance: +2 to defenses against any cold-based powers or attacks
Speak with Animals: able to communicate with any Animal or Magical Beast as if they speak a language which the Vulpine knows.
Nature's Purification: Daily power.


Nature's Purification is a bit underpowered. For 1/day, I'd expect a guaranteed removal of the status, and probably increase that to 2/day for paragon, 3/day for epic. This is especially considering it's limited use to blindness, deafness, and poision.

If you want to include ongoing disease, perhaps just allow a saving throw without penality. (Failing a saving throw against a disease usually makes it worse.)

If you'd rather keep it closer to it's current form, make it 1/encounter and grant an immediate saving throw with a +2 bonus. Saving throws are something that doesn't increase with level, and so don't need to increase the bonus with tier. Possibly remove the blindness/deafness/poison restriction, too.

Nature's Purification Vulpine Racial Power
Daily (Healing)
Minor Action
Target: 1 creature touched
Effect: Allows 1 creature to immediately save against blinded, deafened, or ongoing poison damage.
Special: Increase the number of uses to 2/Day at level 11, and to 3/Day at level 21.
Special: This power can be used against a persistent disease or poison; in that cast, the target simply makes a saving throw as usual. Success indicates that they get better, but they suffer no negative consequences from failure.

- or -

Nature's Purification Vulpine Racial Power
Encounter (Healing)
Minor Action
Target: 1 creature within 4 squares.
Effect: Allows 1 creature to make an immediate saving throw against blinded, deafened or ongoing poison damage. The target gets a +2 bonus to this saving throw.


It could probably be cleaned up, but I'm in a bit of a hurry. Sorry. :smallredface:

Shadow_Elf
2008-11-05, 10:55 PM
A free saving throw to an ally within 5 squares with a bonus equal to your highest mental modifier once per encounter would be fine. This way, it scales for you.

Also, for the cold thing, it should read:

You gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against cold effects. This is any ongoing penalty induced by a cold attack, from slowed and immobilised to dazed and ongoing damage. And I wouldn't mind seeing that be a +5 bonus (so its in league with the Eladrin and Dwarf features). It would still be balanced.

+2 INT +2 WIS means they favour Wizard, Swordmage and Cleric, but mostly Wizard. This race is Orbizard's best friend (as is mentioned above), but that doesn't mean its overpowered. Unlike 3.Xe, 4e doesn't give extra "cost" for certain ability modifiers (oooh, sick burn!)

Icewalker
2008-11-06, 02:04 AM
We quite like this creation. Very good detailed flavor, although we suggest formatting the stat block to conform better with the standard.

The abilities seem well-balanced. Perhaps even a little on the weak side. We agree with Mr. Blackleaf, you may want to add some +2 skill bonuses. We suggest Survival, Listen, and possible others.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-06, 02:35 AM
I'll chenge the stat blocks in a minute. Nature's Purification initially removed the effect with no need for a saving throw, but othr people said it was overpowered. I mainly based them of red foxes with thicker fur, which is why I gave them cold resistance (I'll raise it to 5 for the 4th Edition version, though). Regarding the fluff, Vulpine colonies which don't rely on magic for food tend to have subsistance-type economies, which is why they tend to use chickens for eggs. (They don't all rely on magic items; the ones that use them tend to do it out of personl preference). I decided to keep Favoured Classes for the 4th Edition as they are due to fluff fitting better for the ones I picked. (To be fair, they work well as Sword Sages due to Str being unimportant for those, but Rangers fit better.)

PhoeKun
2008-11-06, 03:17 AM
On the 3.5 Statblock:

- Nothing appears to be particularly overpowered. The pre-selected bonus feat is a watered down version of the human, talk to animals is no great shakes, and aging never ever ever comes up in a campaign. Like, ever.

- Even so, my inner pedant wishes to point out that immunity to the negative effects of aging tends to be a high level ability granted by class features, a la Druid and Monk, the latter of which uses it as a capstone. To shut my inner pedant up, I wish to remind it that this is proof the monk is poorly designed, and not that aging immunity is overpowered.

- As a player race, the wording on the bonus languages is a bit wonky. It's usually only distinctly monster races that have pre-selected languages, and that's only a result of them being monster manual entries ready for mass production than it is about the race speaking the languages. It makes far more sense to just add Sylvan to the list of Vulpine bonus languages than it does to hand it to them and up the Int requirement for getting more (an act for which there is no precedent).

On the 4e Statblock:

-It's been said, but I'll toss my metaphorical phantom hat in with those cautioning about an Int/Wis bonus. I would think Dex/Wis would be at least as appropriate, without causing any one type of player to squeal with joy (except spear wielding fighters, I guess. *shrugs*). I'm not exactly an expert, so I can't pretend to speak with the same authority as those who came before me.

- Nature's Purification is definitely not so powerful as to force it to be a Daily power, and it seems a strange decision in any case. I'd knock it down to an Encounter power and walk away.

*wipes dust of hands, walks away into the sunset*

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-06, 03:21 AM
Thanks for the feedback. Would you get rid of the problems with learning languages altogether? I added that because someone told me Speak With Animals was too powerful. I picked the stat bonuses due to thinking that it would work better due to their society containing a lot of magic.

EDIT: Due to further discussions regarding the languages, I'm removing the difficulties with learning them.

KKL
2008-11-06, 07:42 AM
I'd sooner keep the stats as they are while not changing the Cold Endurance wording. (I picked those stats because they fit, and I tend to see stepping around certain combinations because they are great for 1 build as pointless, and the CE ability is designed to protect them from cold weather as well.)
Apologies, I only meant to change the first sentence. The part about Vulpines being acclimated to cold temperatres I had absolutely no problem with, and thus didn't think to say that I never minded it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-06, 07:45 AM
Sorry about that. Do you think it looks okay now?

sigurd
2008-11-06, 10:58 AM
3.5 rules

Combat Wise - I think they're fine, even too weak.

Plot and story wise - I like them but I think they are too powerful.

I'd change the immune to aging affect to a saving throw. Although its certainly less powerful than an elve's immunity to sleep in common play...?

I'd limit the number of times per day you can talk with animals and\or perhaps limit it to dog like creatures.

How long do they live - foxes aren't particularly log lived? I'd use the human aging rules.

Paragon Class: Its too Druid centric. water down the druid bonuses and give them a level of physical bonuses to start. Thematically it would 1- brave hunter 2 - wise leader 3 - Druid\Shaman

How do they think of their dead?
They dont transform?


Sigurd

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-06, 11:03 AM
They don't transform, and I included the aging guidlines in the fluff. How is that too powerful, though and how would you handle saving throws? (That's why I recommended not giving them bonuses for getting older.) I picked the mental stat bonuses because they fit better for a magic-loving creature, and they were supposed to be Druid-centric. Also, I thought Animal Talk would be too limited if it only applied to canids. I'll need to think about their funeral customs.

Oregano
2008-11-07, 10:47 AM
Looks like a good solid race, will have to test them really to make sure they're balanced but they look it, I might actually use them if/when I play D&D again.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-07, 02:39 PM
That would be helpful thanks.:smallsmile: I'm testing them in 1 really slow PBP game at the minute.

Shadowcaller
2008-11-08, 04:41 PM
Hmm... I don't know much about DnD but should not a fox people have good hearing?
I should give them some bonus modifiers in listening checks. Also I would switch the immunity to aging effects with something else like the ability to jump 4 times their own body length (Fennec Foxes can do that, just a random fact...) it goes well with their closeness to trees.

It looks good otherwise.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-09, 02:43 AM
Vulpines are based of red foxes rather then fennecs (thanks for the fact, though; I read about that a while back). I mainly included anti-aging due to hating the 3rd Edition aging penalty system for being unrealistic. You're probably right about the hearing. Would giving them a +2 bonus to all Spot and Listen checks with the other bonuses overpower them? I'd sooner not improve their jumping skills due to how they are meant to be physically weak.

FireFox
2008-11-10, 10:49 AM
Wow, I really like this. :smallsmile: I don't know anything about 4e, and I honestly don't know enough about the technical side of 3.5e to know if this would be overpowered, but then again I prefer the fluff of races. Needless to say in that regard this race is excellent. If I ever do get to play a real DnD game, I would very much like to play with this race. :smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-12, 09:51 AM
How would you adapt this race to the 2nd or 1st Edition apart from reducing the stat adjustments tp +/-1 and having min/max stats? For stats, I was thinking the following would fit:

Str: 3-16.
Dex: 5-18.
Con: 5-18.
Int: 4-18.
Wis: 7-19.
Cha: 3-18.

Class Limits:

Fighter: 7.
Ranger: 12.
Cleric: 12.
Druid: 16.
Magic User: 13.
Thief: 8.
Bard: 13.
Illusionist: 10.

Saint Nil
2008-11-12, 10:18 AM
I though only humans were allowed tro be paladins in 2e?

Lady Tialait
2008-11-12, 10:22 AM
Hehe, I want a Vulpine. I don't have any comments other then..*swagged* They will be an enslaved race, oppressed, used for...less then kosher acts.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-12, 10:26 AM
I don't honestly know the 2nd Edition that well, Saint Nil (If you are right, I'll chenge that). Tia, I can;t help but find your comment ironic considering how I tend to prefer G-rated things.:smalleek:

EDIT: Due to Saint Nil being right, I removed Paladins from the 2nd Edition stats.

Lady Tialait
2008-11-12, 10:37 AM
I perfer my RP games to be dark, and if you have any amount of power or good about it, it will be either supressed or used for less-then-good reasons.

Hence, the Dark Barbarian King has an Angel as a butler...

Matthew
2008-11-12, 10:59 AM
That looks fine to me. Looking at the Complete Book of Humanoids, it is rare for a race to have a 19 as a maximum, but not unheard of. The other elements you need to look at are:

{table=head]Attribute | Minimum | Maximum |
Strength |
3 |
16 |
Dexterity |
5 |
18 |
Constitution |
5 |
18 |
Intelligence |
4 |
18 |
Wisdom |
7 |
19 |
Charisma |
3 |
18 |
[/table]

Class Restrictions and Level Limits: (for instance)

{table=head]Class | Maximum Level |
Fighter |
9 |
Paladin |
- |
Ranger |
- |
Magician |
9 |
Illusionist |
- |
Cleric |
9 |
Druid |
- |
Thief |
9 |
Bard |
- |
[/table]

Then you would decide which classes are most suitable and least suitable, adjusting the level limits as appropriate (and always bearing in mind that level limits can be discarded if full advancement is favoured).

Hit Dice: By class (I would think)

Alignment: Typically neutral good

Natural Armour Class: 10(?)

Languages: Common, Vulpine, Sylven(?), Elvish(?)

Special Advantages: Immune to supernatural aging effects; muli class combinations?

Special Disadvantages:

Monstrous Traits:

Proficiencies: [list bonus, recommended or required proficiencies here]

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-12, 11:04 AM
Thanks. They are immune to stat loss from ageing as well. I'll go with the other stats while adding Gnoll for languages, though. Also, I'd sooner keep my Class Limits (those seem a bit low to me). In regards to Proficiencies, I would pick the following as being recommended:

Survival (home environment), Swim, Climbing, Heal, Herbal Medicine, Animal Handling, Long and Short Bows, Slings, Daggers and Spears.