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View Full Version : Shifters, Natural Attacks & ToB =???



Zephyros
2008-11-02, 09:37 AM
Howdy there playgrounders.

One of my players' character -in my newly started Ebberron campaign- met his fate and while we concluded that session with the living rest of the party, the player tinkered around with his new character. A Razorclaw Shifter either Warblade or Swordsage using the snapkick feat.

So as fas as I can remember Natural Attacks without psionics or some other way of getting arbitrarily many attacks is made of fail.

1. Will he be competent? The party consists of a Changeling Rogue, a Aerenal Elf wizard, and a kalashtar psion, not much optimised but rather strong.
2. Is there any reason not to play the unarmed swordsage variant? (he will have claws while he shifts but otherwise...)
3. How is he supposed to enchant weapons that appear and dissappear depending on character condition (shifting)?
4. Will superior unarmed strike increase his claw dmg or only his kicks and fists?
5. I am at a complete loss with what to do. I wanna let him play what he wants but not punish him for rule inadequacy at that field. HALP!

Thx in advance.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-02, 09:44 AM
1: Shifters are just fine for Bo9S characters, but I recomend you look at the Totemist in Magic of Incarnum before you say that Natural Attacks are made of fail.

2: It will help with Snap Kick requirements. Alternate between Warblade and Swordsage levels, then take Master of Nine for best effect.

3: You can't enchant natural weapons (trust me, that's more broken than it sounds). You can, however, buy an Amulet of Natural Attacks to have enhancements applied to your natural weapons (it's just expensive to all hell and back).

4: Unarmed Strikes are different from natural weapons. As such, SuS would improve only your unarmed strikes, not your natural attacks. That being said, you can combine your Natural Attacks with Unarmed Strike attacks to get more damage/round. You would take penalties without Improved Multiattack though (serious ones at that).

5: Let me know any other questions you may have. I'm an expert when it comes to natural weapons.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-02, 09:55 AM
As a nitpick, a Kensai could have his natural weapons or unarmed attack permanently enchanted - but this doesn't seem to be the case, and he's not a Kensai anyways.

I think the best option is to use the Amulet of Natural Attacks, as suggested above...if I remember right, it costs the same as one weapon with that enhancement bonus/special abilities would, multiplied by the number of weapons you want it to affect, multiplied by 1.5 for a neck slot item, then plus...600GP for the amulet itself?

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 10:04 AM
Draconomicon: Wyrmfang amulet at 2500 GP gives all your natural attacks ability to overcome DR/Magic. Superior Magic Fang spell gives bonuses to hit with all natural attacks, and scales up, and spells like Sharptooth and Razorfangs are worth the look, maybe.

Zephyros
2008-11-02, 11:28 AM
@Sinfire Titan: OK! I should clarify: Natural Attacks while looking at the usual books is made of fail :smallbiggrin: Don't take me wrong...that's how it is... Most regular players want to just fight with big claws and look badass, not bind chakras of IWANTTOPWN and manifest claws of IWANTTOPWNMORE.

One more question. So his full-attack with claws and kick will take a -4 penalty without multiattack?

Thx very much for your help. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-02, 11:53 AM
@Sinfire Titan: OK! I should clarify: Natural Attacks while looking at the usual books is made of fail :smallbiggrin: Don't take me wrong...that's how it is... Most regular players want to just fight with big claws and look badass, not bind chakras of IWANTTOPWN and manifest claws of IWANTTOPWNMORE.

One more question. So his full-attack with claws and kick will take a -4 penalty without multiattack?

Thx very much for your help. :smallwink:


Assuming BAB +15/+10/+5 for this math, but if he has SuS and Snap Kick and a Strength of 20 (really low for a 20th level character, but it is a Swordsage, so you can get away with that), his full attack would look like this:

3 Unarmed attacks at +18/+18/+13/+8
2 Claws attacks at +13/+13

For a total of +18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+8

Multiattack improves this to +18/+18/+16/+16/+13/+8, and Improved Multiattack gives him +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+8.

Zephyros
2008-11-02, 12:46 PM
That is if he uses the kick as a primary weapon (to get more attacks)

IF he uses the claws as primary?

Thx again alot.

CthulhuM
2008-11-02, 12:59 PM
Have him take a look at the Weretouched Master class from Eberron, and the Bloodclaw Master from Tomb of Battle, and have him consider taking a level of barbarian. I have a character in my campaign who went with that build, and he has pretty much the most ridiculous damage output I've ever seen in an actual game.

Keld Denar
2008-11-02, 01:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that natural weapons are always considered secondary attacks when used in conjuncture with manufactured weapons, and in this case, your unarmed strikes would be considered manufactured weapons (due to UA Swordsages getting the Monk's Unarmed Strike feature). I don't think you can reverse it so that your natual attacks are your primary. The only way to increase your number of natural attacks is with feats like Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon. These feats give you 1 extra attack with each of a "pair" of natural attacks, and full iteratives with a "pair" of natural attacks respectively.

Thus, if you had a BAB of 16, and Improved Rapid Strike, you would get 4 attacks with each claw, with the regular cumulative -5 to hit with each, and in addition to the standard penalties for multiweapon fighting.

Also, unfortunately, your damage with your natrural attacks is not modified by your SS UAS damage progression. They stay fixed at whatever they are when you get them, unless you get some feature that specifically upgrades them, such as the Improved Natural Attack feat from the MM, or a size adjustment due to Enlarge Person or similar.

If I was you, in order to make this character effective, I would look for ways to add bonus damage to your large number of attacks, which brings us to the schools of Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. All of these are SS accessable disciplines, and most of your maneuvers should be drawn from here. DM, SD, and WR tend to contain too many strikes that are single attacks, and don't allow you to take fullest advantage of your high number of attacks. Best to combine DW and TC boosts with something like Assassin's Stance and make full attacks rather than strikes.

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 01:44 PM
note you can have both Unarmed Strike and Natural weapons- claws and an unarmed strike progression, which could be kicks, or head butts.

wadledo
2008-11-02, 01:49 PM
Also, there are a number of good Shifter only items that focus on natural attacks.
Stuff like providing +1's, sliver, more rounds in shifter form, stuff like that, which will help significantly.

Edit: Looked it up.
Races of Eberron, Braid of [blank].
Cheap, too.

Lyndworm
2008-11-03, 12:00 AM
Beast Strike from DR355 (p76) lets you add your claw or slam damage to unarmed attacks and grapple damage. I know that it's not actually what you're asking for, but it might be of interest.

Zack

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-03, 12:11 AM
Maybe suggest he use Warblade with ___ Mongoose maneuvers from Tiger Claw, with Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz from PH2. With BA and RB it doesn't matter that he's using natural weapons, he'll still be getting extra attacks plus his Mongoose attacks, and with Spring Attack he can avoid being attacked most of the time. He'd be getting two attacks/round with 2 claws until get gets Bounding Assault, and remember that most Maneuvers that are Strikes require a Standard Action to use and can't even be combined with a full attack.

Keld Denar
2008-11-03, 02:37 AM
BF, strikes are standard actions. You can't use them as part of a Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, or Rapid Blitz. They also doing work with the Xing Mongoose boosts either, since you get the attacks WHEN you initiate the boost, not when you attack. Since you can't interupt a full round action (like Spring Attacking) with a swift action, you probably won't be adjacent when you initiate it before or after the spring, and thus, it would be wasted.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-03, 02:44 AM
Spring Attack is junk. If you really want that, get items of Permanent Fly, Air Walk, or Overland Flight, or play a race with wings. Then take Fly-By Attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) Same style, same use, but better, and without bad prerequisites.

CthulhuM
2008-11-03, 03:33 AM
BF, strikes are standard actions. You can't use them as part of a Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, or Rapid Blitz. They also doing work with the Xing Mongoose boosts either, since you get the attacks WHEN you initiate the boost, not when you attack. Since you can't interupt a full round action (like Spring Attacking) with a swift action, you probably won't be adjacent when you initiate it before or after the spring, and thus, it would be wasted.

You most certainly can use mongoose boosts on a spring attack. I've never heard that you can't interrupt a full round action with a swift action (it's not listed under the SRD rules for either type of action, and, in fact, I'm pretty sure there are swift actions that are explicitly designed to be used in the middle of a full attack). Moreover, spring attack isn't a full round action - it's a move action interrupted by a standard action.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-03, 03:37 AM
You most certainly can use mongoose boosts on a spring attack. I've never heard that you can't interrupt a full round action with a swift action (it's not listed under the SRD rules for either type of action, and, in fact, I'm pretty sure there are swift actions that are explicitly designed to be used in the middle of a full attack). Moreover, spring attack isn't a full round action - it's a move action interrupted by a standard action.
Spring Attack [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Yes, you can use boosts, but not strikes. One of the many reasons SA stinks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-03, 04:32 AM
My suggestion was to either full-attack with 2 claws, or use Standard Action strikes, until level 12. At 12, take Bounding Assault and use it with Mongoose boosts, which does indeed work. The Mongoose boosts don't say the attacks occur upon completing the action, or as you perform the boost, they only say you get to make the extra attacks after initiating it, which as-written you could initiate the boost at the very start of the round and then take your extra attacks during your spring attack, because it's still after you did the boost.

Zephyros
2008-11-03, 09:35 AM
@Keld Dennar: Well thank you. I knew there were feats for iteratives on natural attacks. Very useful.

@Cthulum: Well bloodclaw master is actually a good shifty class, but its another hit on BAB, not many maneuvers, and mostly "bleh" perks. More of a 2 level dip I think.

The problem here is that you spend too many feats to get attacks with a sufferable bab and then your attacks need a ton of bling to enchant and do mostly crappy dmg :smallannoyed:. Braids can help with the enchanting issue but am getting a bit disappointed here. Thanks for your help everybody. :smallcool:

edit: Actually the build is most probably gonna be a Barbarian/Warblade/Swordsage(if there is space)/Weretouched master.:smallbiggrin:

CthulhuM
2008-11-03, 02:03 PM
The enchanting issue is solved via this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists). The item doesn't technically say you can apply non-enhancement weapon bonuses to it, but it's certainly a reasonable interpretation.

And yeah, bloodclaw master is the less impressive of the two. Weretouched is the ridiculous one (even with the errata that massively nerfed their capstone ability).

Also, if you're going the barbarian route be sure to pick up... shifter ferocity I think it's called? It's a feat that ups the damage dice on all your natural attacks by two steps (in addition to some other bonus) when you're both raging and shifting.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-03, 03:03 PM
Frankly, an easy way to make natural attacks powerful is through four means: druid spells, totemist binds, psionic warrior powers, and Vow of Poverty.