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Egiam
2008-11-02, 08:21 PM
For a long time Gurps has intrigued me, partly for its genre freedom. I play DND (3.5 and 4.0), and would like to know more about it in relation. Also I would apreciate any other roleplaying game recomendations.

For some of my previous thoughts on this please check this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94577
Thanks!

Knaight
2008-11-02, 08:42 PM
Gurps is a remarkable system which works really well, is more dangerous, and has incredible genre freedom. If you like a lot of attention to detail and don't mind spending a long time doing simple things, Gurps is for you. If you like a system that fades to the background, allowing for the story to move forward and become the focus, and don't mind losing a little detail, then go with Fudge, which is kind of like a rules light Gurps, with some other cool features.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-02, 09:46 PM
It's really a little hard to talk about Gurps in comparison to D&D, because they do pretty much everything differently.

Gurps more or less tries to physically model just about everything (detail is scalable depending on your optional rules choices). Abstractions are very limited indeed. There are no inflating 'not really wounded' hit points, no handwaved all-purpose AC, no automatic attacks of opportunity. Hit points are used, but they're limited and side effects quickly accumulate if you lose them. Defenses against attacks are actively rolled...you can dodge, parry, or block, if conditions allow. Shields are useful here, while armor serves as damage reduction (but much more effectively than it could ind D&D). Combat rounds are one second long and very concrete, and close fighting should be over in a handful of seconds in most cases. It's a very different picture.

Skills get a lot of support in the central books, and more elsewhere. Of course, pretty much everything is skill-dependent, there being no such notion as a 'base attack bonus', but the non-combat skills cover a great deal of territory as well, and in vastly more detail than in D&D. Quite a bit of it doesn't apply at a D&D type tech level, but a fair amount does.

Gurps doesn't really provide you with direct setting support, unless you obtain that specifically. The Characters book can model an enormous range of characters, but other than indicating what options are appropriate for more-or-less realistic human characters, deciding what makes sense is left to the user. Only the most extremely kitchen-sink settings would make the full flexibility of the advantages list available to the players. As a GM you need to bring your own ideas.

One thing that might be missed is D&D's efforts to clarify combat balance. Certainly they're flaky and fallible, but ECL and CR do have some meaning. Figuring out a fair fight in Gurps doesn't offer any such accommodations, though the Dungeon Fantasy and Action supplements give pointers. Character balance in general is probably even fuzzier, but with the huge range of possibilities it's going to be comparing apples to horseshoes most of the time. Though building skill definitely does matter (albeit in less of a 'piece together 5 prestige classes from 4 books' way).

Do you have any particular idea what you want to do with Gurps?

valadil
2008-11-02, 09:51 PM
It took me a while but I've finally come to appreciate GURPs. The trick is having a good GM who is willing to take a subset of the rules and genres to play a specific game. My first experience with the game was with a GM who tried too hard to incorporate everything and we ended with a bland, diluted game that interested nobody but the GM.

Egiam
2008-11-02, 10:34 PM
If you like a lot of attention to detail and don't mind spending a long time doing simple things, Gurps is for you. What do you mean by that?

elliott20
2008-11-02, 10:44 PM
Knaight is saying that GURPS requires a lot of front-loaded work before you can really run it. Because GURPS is so universal, there is no setting that comes with it. As a result, you can't run it out of the box. You pretty much have to either buy a settings book or spend a lot of time putting together the setting yourself.

and because GURPS is such a detail oriented game, you can be spending a lot of time putting together adventures. Perhaps even more so than D&D.

Also, GURPS is far more reliant on your players cooperation since there are far less restrictions as to how the characters are built. you pretty much have to give them guidelines prior to character creation. (In fact, I would suggest that you spend the first session fine tuning your campaign concept with your players before you get them to create the characters)

In short, D&D is more gamist while GURPS is more simulationist.

Me? I like the fate system. (A derivative of the fudge dice) It's far easier to put together and it has a nice narrative component added into the mix.

Cybren
2008-11-02, 11:17 PM
In short, D&D is more gamist while GURPS is more simulationist.

This is not true. By nature of being generic and universal it can be played in any sort of campaign style. (let's not get into the usefulness of using GNS theory itself)

elliott20
2008-11-02, 11:34 PM
I speak not from the genre sense, but from the level of detail sense. Of course, if you want, you can adapt it for just about any genre. But my point is that the game itself focuses a great deal on the details of things. perhaps it is not the best use of the term "simulationist", but you see where I'm going with this.

Goblin Music
2008-11-02, 11:47 PM
Generic Role Playing Game System
Gurps is a game that allows more diverse PCs, you do not have classes, just Positive and negative qualities that you spend points on to create a good diverse person, for you to RP. you get very little stereotypical dumb fighters with the amount of diversity Gurps gives you, but that comes at the price of a longer of prep time.

Knaight
2008-11-03, 12:23 AM
What I was saying is that Gurps simulates lots of tiny things that are abstracted in things like D&D, and if you like that, Gurps will be your game. But it slows down the game, and if you prefer a quicker game where some detail is lost you will much prefer Fudge, which basically fills in the same niche, just rules light. Both classless, fit most all genres, skill based, heck the guy who wrote Fudge wrote a bunch of stuff for Gurps before writing it. Then Fate ripped it off, screwed it up, and became more famous.

elliott20
2008-11-03, 01:31 AM
really? I actually LIKED the fate system better than fudge dice...

fusilier
2008-11-03, 02:08 AM
I've a run a few Gurps campaigns, in 3.0. I haven't played much of 4.0, but they are very similar. While GURPS is certainly more dangerous, I've actually found it difficult to kill characters (an artillery shell will do the trick, but it has to land close enough to them!) However, it's very easy to seriously wound characters, to the point where it may take weeks or even months to recover.

In 3.0, I found it useful to make my own cheat sheets, for things like wounds and treatment, reloading times of particular weapons, etc. That way I had already researched which rules I was expecting to use. It was very useful in combat. One of the times combat bogged down was when the party had to deal with some dagger wielding assassins. There was a lot of "close combat" (and in GURPS they mean "close"!), and grappling. I wasn't prepared for those rules and the players were certainly unfamiliar with them, which didn't help. It would probably be a good idea in early games to explain what options are available to the players, until they get used to them.

If any of the players find something in the rule books I didn't know about, but it makes sense, I'll let them do it.

fusilier
2008-11-03, 02:14 AM
So answering your original question . . . I think GURPS is good for certain genres. I like to run historical based games in it, and gritty sci-fi games work well. There's nothing to prevent you from running fantasy games, although magic at first glance appears a bit awkward, especially if you are used to D&D. (Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who has taken a "second" glance at GURPS magic) There are cinematic rules, but I've never used them.

For cinematic sci-fi, I always liked West End Games Star Wars. Unfortunately West End Games lost the licensing for Star Wars, but they are still around with a system called the D6 system. Which I assume is the same system as Star Wars. It's very easy to learn, and I have very fond memories of it.

Satyr
2008-11-03, 05:41 AM
What I was saying is that Gurps simulates lots of tiny things that are abstracted in things like D&D, and if you like that, Gurps will be your game. But it slows down the game, and if you prefer a quicker game where some detail is lost you will much prefer Fudge, which basically fills in the same niche, just rules light.

That is entirley true. You can pretty much determine how detailed you want to play in a Gurps game and easily leave out many of the fine adjustment rules, use the splat skills and similar broader approaches to the game, etc. You can easily simplify the game, but you can also use the more complex rules or any combination of those rules you like.
And due to the very simple basic mechanic concept that is sed in any situation, the game might be complex, but it is not difficult.

Gurps is a game that is all about the freedom of choice, both for the layers which have an unreached spectrum of possibilities to crearte and develop their characters and the gamemaster who can pretty much do everything he ever wanted with the game. Gurps is one of the few exceptional games that actually treat you like a sentienet and mature individual instead of a child that needs to be guided and has to follow a clear prescriptive way.

warmachine
2008-11-03, 07:25 AM
I'll add a few points.

GURPS emphasises realism and roleplaying. This may bore Slayers, who prefer the combat focus of D&D. Also, players avoid combat because it's risky and usually plan a fight to get favourable terms.
GURPS is a munchkin's wet dream, much more than D&D. D&D requires clever combinations from lots of books. GURPS just needs receiving bonus points for roleplaying disadvantages, not roleplaying them and arguing with the GM when he threatens to take your points away.
GURPS expansion books are superb genre explanation and equipment lists and are useful even if you don't play GURPS.

amanamana
2008-11-03, 07:53 AM
About the previous statement, I have to say I disagree. Any system that uses flaws or disadvantages may be abused. It's the GM fault if he can't enforce the RP of disadvantages. Not only this, but anything can be ignored by a player, like the BG requirements for Prestige Classes.

And about genres in GURPS: I've GMed games for my D&D-fanatics players using something they thought was exclusive to D&D, epic playing, using GURPS and they had a pretty good time. Most of them said it was way funnier than in D&D itself.

Really! For me, there's not a single genre that I've already tried in GURPS that did not worked out, and I play GURPS for more than 12 years now.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, without flaws. But it's the best system I know for anyone who do not want to play the same kind of game over and over again. It can be used in almost any kind of game complexity (check GURPS Lite) and every genre I've ever tried, usually without more than 2 books.

Wow... maybe I should ask them for some money now...

amanamana
2008-11-03, 07:55 AM
By the way, I think the 4e of GURPS is really something...:smallsmile:

Salz
2008-11-03, 08:05 AM
You said other games so;

I highly recommend Harnmaster. It is great for the same genre as D&D, but a much better game in my opinion.

It depends what your looking for, Wild Wild West would be Aces & Eights, the most realistic game I have played. You get shot, your probably dead. Infection bites.

Modern, I would highly recommend Twilight: 2000. You can still buy the reprint from Far Future Enterprises (1st Ed, only one I play). It has a great system, gunshots hurt, knives hurt, mines hurt a lot. The setting is great if you can get past the fact it didn't happen that way. The system also transplants well. The only thing is the occupations list has been added to, and guns were redone for more realism.

Really anything non d20 is better in my book.

Salz

valadil
2008-11-03, 08:23 AM
I'll add a few points.

GURPS is a munchkin's wet dream, much more than D&D. D&D requires clever combinations from lots of books. GURPS just needs receiving bonus points for roleplaying disadvantages, not roleplaying them and arguing with the GM when he threatens to take your points away.


I disagree with this. Our biggest munchkin in GURPs is the one player willing to go through all the books to find several different ways to achieve the same effect and only buying the cheapest option. You can cheese out disadvantages too, but I see that as a GM problem rather than a system one. And any system with disadvantages will have that issue.

warmachine
2008-11-03, 10:21 AM
All systems can be abused by munchkins but GURPS gives points for non-mechanically enforced disadvantages and there are plenty to choose from in the Basic Set. That's a honeypot for game abusers that D&D doesn't really have. If one of the players is a known game abuser (that you don't want to kick out), GURPS inevitably leads to a confrontation. I know someone who'd try that. This is, of course, a social problem, not a design problem, but when comparing GURPS with D&D, comparative problems with abusive players should be noted. If a group doesn't have someone like that, there isn't a problem.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-03, 11:19 AM
All systems can be abused by munchkins but GURPS gives points for non-mechanically enforced disadvantages and there are plenty to choose from in the Basic Set. That's a honeypot for game abusers that D&D doesn't really have. If one of the players is a known game abuser (that you don't want to kick out), GURPS inevitably leads to a confrontation. I know someone who'd try that. This is, of course, a social problem, not a design problem, but when comparing GURPS with D&D, comparative problems with abusive players should be noted. If a group doesn't have someone like that, there isn't a problem.
Erm, Code of Honor, Cursed (but it's clearly described as 'Murphy hates your guts'), Destiny, Jealousy, Sense of duty, Stubbornness, Vow (debatable), and Weirdness magnet. 8 entries out of 41 pages of disadvantages. There are also a few more that have (vicious) mechanical implications but often shouldn't be allowed because those implications are irrelevant to the game, like Self destruct, Short lifespan, and Terminally ill. Of the above, only Jealousy and Stubbornness don't specify enforceable effects...the rest just don't involve any die rolls, numerical modifiers, and such.

If the GM doesn't use reaction rolls and lets you get away with not roleplaying, that takes quite a few more out of play, but that's not really the game's fault.

About half the quirks do nothing except provide a roleplay constraint, but that's why they're only quirks.

Satyr
2008-11-03, 02:35 PM
Disadvantage like Cursed, a negative Destiny or Weirdness Magic are much worse than most mechanical disadvantages, since they effectively turn the character into the Universe's chew toys. Esspecially Weirdness Magnet is a dangerous trap for those who believe that this is a cheap source of points.

valadil
2008-11-03, 02:59 PM
Like I said, we haven't had much trouble with disadvantage abuse. It may be because we play with a set maximum of quirks and disadvantages per character and our GMs ensure that each quick or flaw will come up at least once. If you see these as a potential area of abuse, cut them from the game. You already have to cut out quite a bit of the game to make GURPs work for you, why not just exclude the flaws too?

Robz_defheadz
2008-11-03, 03:03 PM
Personally my favourite game is Call of Cthulu.

Sure its dark and dangerous as hell, hideous fast moving monsters wander round, causing San Checks and more often than not death. Total party kills are very frequent in our games but we have a great time. And nothing can quite compare to finnally firing at the blue pus covered dog with a shotgun at less than 2 feet and doing 16D6 of damage.

Sanity checks... nuff said

Klaz Eidron
2008-11-03, 03:11 PM
I think GURPS is a really good system. My group has played almost exclusively GURPS campaigns ever since I showed the two main books to them. But your mileage may vary, since what my group likes is to have a different bizarre settings each session, so if you like stablished worlds you might not like it.

dariathalon
2008-11-03, 06:48 PM
There's nothing to prevent you from running fantasy games, although magic at first glance appears a bit awkward, especially if you are used to D&D. (Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who has taken a "second" glance at GURPS magic)

I have actually used GURPS magic several times, and rather like most of it. There are some things I don't like, for example, the fatigue system tends to lend itself to much more frequent cast/rest cycles than in D&D. However, the skill-based spells and organization of magic into trees makes a lot of sense to me. Each spell is its own skill, and you have to know the more basic spells within a school before learning the more advanced ones. You need to know how to create and shape fire before being able to sling fireball spells around, for example. Once you know a spell, you can choose how good you are with that particular spell, by investing more points in it.

I've also seen people use the powers rules to build magic. Creating worlds where all spells are learned as advantages has its own benefits and drawbacks, but is also a completely viable option. Characters created this way tend to be able to cast fewer spells, but are able to cast those spells with more reliability.

Calanais
2008-11-03, 07:25 PM
I've had many years of good roleplaying experiences from GURPS (3rd ed), but it can cause problems for GMs and players. From my experience, picking up the book and trying to run a generic fantasy game the same night is asking for trouble. As other people have said, GURPS is intended to be universal, so a genre and setting have to be provided (either by the GM or from a sourcebook etc), whereas D&D has its default generic setting. A GM who decides on a genre/gameworld, familiarises themselves with the rules appropriate to that genre, and approves all characters for suitability in the campaign before the first game, will have a much easier time.
My longest and most enjoyable campaign as a player was a (homebrewed) GURPS 3rd ed game which I was involved with for about ten years, although it had been going on for several years before I started playing It was a high fantasy campaign, inspired by (among many other things) the political structures in Dune, and run by the best GM in Edinburgh. So GURPS can certainly work with fantasy, powerful magic (if not at the highest D&D level), and sustained campaigns, at least with the right GM and players.

Also, from what I've seen of 4th ed, its sorted many of the problems I had with 3rd ed.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-03, 07:33 PM
Haven't played GURPS, though I have heard many many things about it, both good and bad. Mostly I've been too lazy to pick up a copy and learn it.

However, if you're intrinsically opposed to ZOMGRules systems, my understanding is that GURPS is not for you--and I would take a moment here to recommend a little game called Everway, put out by Gaslight Press. Four stats--Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. No dice--everything is resolved by tarot deck. Very straightforward, very story centric, and incredibly light on the rules in every sort of the term.

Yahzi
2008-11-03, 09:04 PM
I love GURPS. But it's too realistic for most players. So now I'm running D&D. Apparently my players want to be able to stab giant iron statues to death with a rapier. :smallbiggrin:

fusilier
2008-11-04, 03:33 AM
Calanais and dariathalon:

Good to hear about magic in GURPS. I've never run a campaign with magic before, and never looked too closely at it. A friend once tried but gave up and reverted to D&D -- however he always does that, much to my chagrin.


All systems can be abused by munchkins but GURPS gives points for non-mechanically enforced disadvantages and there are plenty to choose from in the Basic Set. That's a honeypot for game abusers that D&D doesn't really have. If one of the players is a known game abuser (that you don't want to kick out), GURPS inevitably leads to a confrontation. I know someone who'd try that. This is, of course, a social problem, not a design problem, but when comparing GURPS with D&D, comparative problems with abusive players should be noted. If a group doesn't have someone like that, there isn't a problem.

I think other people have addressed the question well, but let me add my two cents:

1. Read the rules! There is a limit to how many disadvantages a character can have. Now admittedly some of them aren't very disadvantageous. Like one-eye (although if you needed to drive anywhere you might be in for some trouble).

2. Characters who aren't being affected by their disadvantages should have those disads cut. I've done this before . . . I was really reluctant to allow the disadvantage in the first place, and warned the player that if it is not coming into play I will have to remove it. Also there are times when certain disadvantages (and advantages) can disappear, simply through travel. (A protestant may have social stigma in 16th century Spain, but if he/she travels to England . . .)

You don't get many experience points in a GURPS campaign. The characters are essentially complete when the game begins. Lots of points must be saved if you want to increase a stat, otherwise you can only stick them into skills (and even then you are supposed to justify how you became better at that skill). Now if your GM doesn't impose any limits, and doesn't confront characters with their disadvantages, you can end up with some pretty silly characters. I find characters like that tend to be "broken" and it will be really obvious -- they just don't seem to work with the game.

Calanais
2008-11-04, 06:43 AM
The fantasy GURPS game I played in used the GURPS magic system, a somewhat homebrewed version of the psionics system PLUS two other systems for magic and psi :smallconfused:? They all worked pretty well together (combined with cinematic martial arts abilities:smalleek:!)
GURPS disadvantages MUST have an effect on the character, otherwise they are not disadvantages. If the GM isn't going to use the social interaction rules, disadvantages which give reaction penalties may not hinder the character. Mental disadvantages can be enforced by requiring will rolls where required, and physical disads have penalties associated with them which just have to be remembered. However, a GURPS PC is expected to have disads: a character with 40 points of disads is going to be perfectly playable even when all of the disads are properly enforced.

dariathalon
2008-11-04, 07:57 AM
The fantasy GURPS game I played in used the GURPS magic system, a somewhat homebrewed version of the psionics system PLUS two other systems for magic and psi :smallconfused:? They all worked pretty well together (combined with cinematic martial arts abilities:smalleek:!)

This is one of the biggest changes in 4th edition. Pretty much all of the different "systems" they had for things were unified under one set of advantages. For example, there used to be about 5 different ways to be able to fly, a racial advantage, a spell, a knack, a super-power, a psionic ability (and probably several others too). Now there is one flight advantage that is modified by enhancements and limitations to help you get it exactly the way you want it. The only exception to this is spells, and I believe the skill-based system that they already had in place was popular enough that they didn't want to get rid of it.

amanamana
2008-11-04, 08:09 AM
As usual, almost everything someone is saying that is impossible or just difficult in GURPS is just there in the rules as an option.
You think characters don't develop much after creation? Use the higher reward system...
Think you need a combat less fatal? Use the cinematic rules and/or break the limit on Hit Points...
And the list goes on.:smalltongue:

cloneof
2008-11-04, 11:05 AM
Could I, for example, create an post-apocalyptic and play with it with friends with GURPS?

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-04, 11:17 AM
Could I, for example, create an post-apocalyptic and play with it with friends with GURPS?
It is difficult to think of a genre that you couldn't play in GURPS. Probably possible, but difficult.

Typical post-apocalyptic stuff ought to work very well in GURPS. You'd mostly use only the 'normal human' range of advantages, possibly with some specified exotic advantages available as mutations or the like. You could do it fine with the Basic Set, though for a modern post-apocalypse High Tech (actually all industrial-era tech up to modern) would be useful.

Cybren
2008-11-04, 12:43 PM
This is one of the biggest changes in 4th edition. Pretty much all of the different "systems" they had for things were unified under one set of advantages. For example, there used to be about 5 different ways to be able to fly, a racial advantage, a spell, a knack, a super-power, a psionic ability (and probably several others too). Now there is one flight advantage that is modified by enhancements and limitations to help you get it exactly the way you want it. The only exception to this is spells, and I believe the skill-based system that they already had in place was popular enough that they didn't want to get rid of it.

Well to be fair, GURPS 4th edition posits two alternate systems of spells magic in the basic set, ritual magic and clerical magic. There's also the "chambara skills", and the enthrallment skills. There's Martial Arts that shows how fearsome a character can be with a minimal of cinematic abilities, and Magic has Alchemy/Herb Lore , which is separate from but parallel to the standard magic rules. Power Ups 1: Imbuements has another ability system that is skill based, Thaumatology offers a variety of alternate magic systems and toolboxes to build your own, and Psionic Powers, a forthcoming supplement will add the 3E psionic system as an alternative in 4E.

bosssmiley
2008-11-04, 01:25 PM
GURPS - the sourcebooks are fantastic, the mechanics are generally good (and excellent at what they do well). Just don't ask them to model stuff that's too far removed from primary world human norms and you should be ok (the GURPS Historical stuff is excellent, things like GURPS Supers and GURPS Mage (:smallyuk:) break down horribly).


However, if you're intrinsically opposed to ZOMGRules systems, my understanding is that GURPS is not for you--and I would take a moment here to recommend a little game called Everway, put out by Gaslight Press. Four stats--Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. No dice--everything is resolved by tarot deck. Very straightforward, very story centric, and incredibly light on the rules in every sort of the term.

"Everway" - I have the 1st Ed of that. Published by (whisper it) WOTC. A very...90s game. The quasi-tarot deck was fun for chargen, and rewarded quick thinking in play. :smallconfused:

DigoDragon
2008-11-04, 01:34 PM
I've run GURPS 4E games, specifically a modern conspiracy game and a Super Hero campaign. GURPS is a little math heavy, but otherwise it's good if you're into point-based systems and having lots of options to create any kind of character (As opposed to a level-based system like D&D where you're put into a specific class).

Not that there's anything wrong with D&D mind you. :smallsmile:


I think the only thing that GURPS is weak on is the magic system. You buy spells like skills and there's loads of odd prerequisites which make the magic system a bit unlike "Universal" to me.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-04, 01:43 PM
"Everway" - I have the 1st Ed of that. Published by (whisper it) WOTC. A very...90s game. The quasi-tarot deck was fun for chargen, and rewarded quick thinking in play. :smallconfused:

2e is pretty much the same way. It's something I enjoy greatly.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-04, 01:55 PM
I think the only thing that GURPS is weak on is the magic system. You buy spells like skills and there's loads of odd prerequisites which make the magic system a bit unlike "Universal" to me.
Yeah, the 'default' magic system is peculiarly non-generic.

Thaumatology might have some help for that, perhaps, when it comes out. It sounds like helping with custom magic systems falls within its scope. Fantasy does a bit in that direction too, and is an amazing book in general.

Yahzi
2008-11-04, 08:18 PM
Let me tell you a story about GURPS:

One of my characters drives a convertible into the lobby of an office building at high speed (don't ask). We look up the rules, and it turns out he is going to take 100d6-400 damage. He rolls all the dice, we count it up, and he takes... 4 hit points. A broken rib.

The other player in the car says, "Ha, that's easy!" He grabs the dice, rolls, and winds up with 80+ points of damage. In a game where heroes have 18 hit points at best...

It was a brilliant result. Just like a real car crash, one guy walked away, and the other guy died instantly.

elliott20
2008-11-04, 09:07 PM
there is the very real problem that due to the way GURPS resolves conflicts and tasks that at a certain point the math will just break down and just won't work. So, in that particular sense, I would say that GURPS is more suitable for a more realistic game than a high action one.

Jack Zander
2008-11-04, 10:04 PM
Let me tell you a story about GURPS:

One of my characters drives a convertible into the lobby of an office building at high speed (don't ask). We look up the rules, and it turns out he is going to take 100d6-400 damage. He rolls all the dice, we count it up, and he takes... 4 hit points. A broken rib.

The other player in the car says, "Ha, that's easy!" He grabs the dice, rolls, and winds up with 80+ points of damage. In a game where heroes have 18 hit points at best...

It was a brilliant result. Just like a real car crash, one guy walked away, and the other guy died instantly.

That seems rather odd to me. The average result of that would be 350 damage minus the 400 for no damage at all. I think if you deliberately crash your car you have a better chance of being hurt than you do of not even having a scratch on you.

Suzuro
2008-11-04, 10:35 PM
That seems rather odd to me. The average result of that would be 350 damage minus the 400 for no damage at all. \


No no no, you're doing your math wrong, that car crash actually heals you. Yes, it's a magical car, no, I'm no longer paralyzed.

-Suzuro

Yahzi
2008-11-04, 10:37 PM
That seems rather odd to me.
It might have been 100d6-300. I don't remember... it was a long time ago. In a galaxy far, far away. :smallbiggrin:

Knaight
2008-11-05, 12:08 AM
I love GURPS. But it's too realistic for most players. So now I'm running D&D. Apparently my players want to be able to stab giant iron statues to death with a rapier. :smallbiggrin:

Oh god, tell me about it. My players want to be able to throw tanks around with their little magnet grapple attached to their robot(in the mods campaign, which is robot centric sci-fi, not the fantasy campaign. Both in Fudge.), and aren't happy when this ends up being something along the lines of yanking and spinning themselves into the treads. Even though they are about 1'2'' metal spheres with little attachments.

Satyr
2008-11-05, 07:41 AM
Thaumatology might have some help for that, perhaps, when it comes out. It sounds like helping with custom magic systems falls within its scope.

Thaumatology is out, at least in the pdf version and it really helps with creating more unique magic systems, indeed, but actually Powers is all you need. to create a very wide range of magical powers. It is anything but difficult to develop a 'magic' tempolate that you can add to different powers, especially afflictions, and build them as magic (mana sensitive, requires IQ / WILL roll, costs fatigue, accessibility - requires gestures and invocations for a net -40% cost reduction). I am not very convinced rrom the default magix system either, but that's mostly because it lacks the flexibility of the powers toolbox.
And when it becomes too expensive to add aditional powers, make generous use of the alternate power modifier.

And the breakdown in the high powered games, I have yet not seen. I play in a Gurps Cammpaign were the characters are old Greek Gods in the modern world and it works great.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-05, 02:57 PM
Sure, you can more or less build anything you want out of advantages, though there are some critical modifiers that seem to be missing (unless I've forgotten them since reading Powers). But it doesn't work out to be the same as skill-based, in pretty big ways. You're not going to be buying new 'spells' for a single point, and the notion of prerequisites that the 'default' magic (sort of) embraces, the advantage system doesn't put any weight on.

Satyr
2008-11-05, 04:51 PM
You're not going to be buying new 'spells' for a single point, and the notion of prerequisites that the 'default' magic (sort of) embraces, the advantage system doesn't put any weight on.

Limiting the amount of new spells is not necesarily a bad thing, it both sdimplifies the bookkeeping and a valid method to establish a base line for the character powers. The 'tree system' with the different prerequisites make it very easy to create spell casters which learn almost any spells with relative ease, and that can easily conflict with the campaign background.

The advantage-based approach is probably more balanced than the skill system, and offers more waays to create individual spells and supernatural abilities, but that is pretty much depending on what you want - in a game were 'many spells' is an important factor, the tree system is a good idea. In a game were the individual creativity of the palyers is stronger focused, broader advantages or magic in splat skills works better.

And it is a valid solution to simulate prerequisites with th Unusual Background advantage, and Magery with a similar base power.

fusilier
2008-11-05, 05:04 PM
As usual, almost everything someone is saying that is impossible or just difficult in GURPS is just there in the rules as an option.
You think characters don't develop much after creation? Use the higher reward system...
Think you need a combat less fatal? Use the cinematic rules and/or break the limit on Hit Points...
And the list goes on.:smalltongue:

Hmmm. I didn't realize there was a higher reward system! (Actually, I prefer the low rewards. I like the idea of my character essentially being "done" when character creation is finished.) But I agree with what you say.

As for the 100d6-400 damage. You probably should have interpreted that as 10d6 x 10 - 400. Massive amounts of damage usually get expressed like that; it makes rolling a lot easier. A great story nonetheless!

Egiam
2008-11-05, 05:15 PM
Thanks for replying!

What is an "advantage"?

Satyr
2008-11-05, 05:36 PM
In Gurps, a character consists of three differnet aspects - abilities like Strength or Perception, Skills, which are directly based on one ability, similar to D&D (but with completely different mechanisms) and advantages and disadvantages, that describe the specific qualties and drawbacks of your character. An advantage is mostly anything that works in favor of your characcter - attractiveness, quick reflexes, ultrasound hearing or the ability to spit acid (you can simulate nearly anything with advantages), disadvantages describe the character's weaknesses and shortcomings, like phobias, moral codes of behaviour or the inability to cross running water. Characters are created with a pool of 'character points' that you use to buy higher ability scores, skills, or advantages, and you get more character points for takinfg disadvantages. It is up to you if you out the emphasis on learning a broad spectrum of skills or smaller selection of higher skills, or prefer high ability scores, or having many advantages, or only few weaknesses.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-05, 07:59 PM
Advantages are more-or-less self-contained beneficial character features, defined in functional terms, relative to the baseline character (an 'average' human for some oft-disputed value of average). Disadvantages are their detrimental cousins.

They include 'natural armor', claws, talents, flight, extra limbs of various sorts, innate attacks, wealth, appearance, and many, many, many more. And then there are a batch of modifiers you can stick on them. (Positive attribute modifiers are pretty much advantages too.)

Pretty much everything about a character but skills is wrapped up into advantages, disadvantages, and features (zero-point advantage-analogues that either do nothing significant or have balanced upsides and downsides), though attributes are sometimes viewed as distinct.

Er, that is, everything about a character mechanically. The same advantage/skill/feature/disadvantage collection can certainly fit more than one character, though most distinct characters probably do have differences.

Yahzi
2008-11-05, 11:31 PM
I play in a Gurps Cammpaign were the characters are old Greek Gods in the modern world
Wow... that sounds like a lot of fun!

Satyr
2008-11-06, 08:28 AM
If you wish, I can offer a more detailed description.

Egiam
2008-11-06, 01:56 PM
In Gurps, a character consists of three differnet aspects - abilities like Strength or Perception, Skills, which are directly based on one ability, similar to D&D (but with completely different mechanisms) and advantages and disadvantages, that describe the specific qualties and drawbacks of your character. An advantage is mostly anything that works in favor of your characcter - attractiveness, quick reflexes, ultrasound hearing or the ability to spit acid (you can simulate nearly anything with advantages), disadvantages describe the character's weaknesses and shortcomings, like phobias, moral codes of behaviour or the inability to cross running water. Characters are created with a pool of 'character points' that you use to buy higher ability scores, skills, or advantages, and you get more character points for takinfg disadvantages. It is up to you if you out the emphasis on learning a broad spectrum of skills or smaller selection of higher skills, or prefer high ability scores, or having many advantages, or only few weaknesses.

I love the idea! It solves the whole "can I replace my feat with 4 skill points" issue!

By the way, does anyone know of a gurps adventure log? I'd like to learn about the pace and what is possible. Also, can you play an adventure with Gurps lite?

Thanks again for posting! :smallbiggrin:

Knaight
2008-11-06, 02:02 PM
You can play with just Gurps Lite, as for solving the whole "can I trade my feat for four skill points issue", thats pretty much universal for classless games(although the term feat and skill point might not be the same, or one might not exist, etc. For instance Fudge does this, with attributes, skills, and gifts all being drawn out of the same pool of character points, with faults adding to them. If you use Objective Character Creation and not any number of other things.). I don't know of an adventure log, but Gurps is reasonably fast paced most of the time, although opposed actions can take a while, as can combat.

By the way, combat actually uses skills and such, rather than the whole BAB thing in D&D.

EDIT: Taking the opportunity to speak to the weaknesses of GURPS, this is actually one of them. There are set attributes(Strength, Agility, Toughness, and Wits if I remember correctly), set advantages, and set skills(and attributes don't go up against skills well). Other games, using Fudge as an example again have variance. For example in a fantasy game I might have attributes of Strength, Toughness, Agility, Perception, Magic, Charisma, and Intelligence, where in a game with a bunch of robots I might have Traction, Calculation Speed, Memory, Sensors, Speed, and Communication. This also varies the amount of attributes, which you can do, furthermore one can put an attribute(such as perception) up against a skill(stealth), in an opposed contest and it works well.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-06, 02:58 PM
Some classless games go fully free-point-allocation. Some don't.


EDIT: Taking the opportunity to speak to the weaknesses of GURPS, this is actually one of them. There are set attributes(Strength, Agility, Toughness, and Wits if I remember correctly), set advantages, and set skills(and attributes don't go up against skills well). Other games, using Fudge as an example again have variance. For example in a fantasy game I might have attributes of Strength, Toughness, Agility, Perception, Magic, Charisma, and Intelligence, where in a game with a bunch of robots I might have Traction, Calculation Speed, Memory, Sensors, Speed, and Communication. This also varies the amount of attributes, which you can do, furthermore one can put an attribute(such as perception) up against a skill(stealth), in an opposed contest and it works well.
If you want to call it a weakness. Gurps is extremely simulation-oriented, and really almost any character can reasonably be said to have all of the attributes Gurps gives them (albeit occasionally at surprising values, like zero DX). Your variant attributes for other settings essentially fall into the levels of various advantages or disadvantages, in most cases. (Though Gurps is a bit anthropocentric, to be sure.)

Gurps base stats are Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health, plus a some semi-derivatives. Health covers resilience to destruction and conditions that might lead to malfunction, so it does apply to unliving entities as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'attributes don't go against skills well', given that every skill in the game is based off your attribute level...and for many of them, +0 is quite reasonable. There are quite a few cases where contests between skills and attributes occur.

The set advantages don't let you implement everything imaginable, but the expectation is that you decompose whatever advantages/races/features you want your game to contain into Basic Set advantages to determine a point cost. You can use the (insanely enormous, especially after modifiers and with Powers tacked on) menu directly if you want, but it's not the only option.

Yahzi
2008-11-06, 07:58 PM
If you wish, I can offer a more detailed description.
Looks like Egaim and I would be interested in reading more about it!:smallsmile:

Jayabalard
2008-11-06, 09:06 PM
GURPS is a munchkin's wet dream, much more than D&D. D&D requires clever combinations from lots of books. GURPS just needs receiving bonus points for roleplaying disadvantages, not roleplaying them and arguing with the GM when he threatens to take your points away.
This is only an issue if you have an extremely incompetent/weak willed GM, and if you have that then D&D is just as easy to cheat in.


GURPS expansion books are superb genre explanation and equipment lists and are useful even if you don't play GURPS.
Absolutly; GURPS has more genre's books than you can shake as stick at and most of them are really really good.

Running a Time traveling campaign, in any system? The GURPS time travel book is quite likely to be useful; a good portion of the book is dedicated strictly to discussing the many different ways that time travel works and helps supply all of the important questions that you should ask before you begin that sort of campaign.

They have some really specific settings as well, with info that can be adapted to any system; Humanx, Lensmen, Discworld, Banestorm, Traveler, and so on.


Also, can you play an adventure with Gurps lite?I would say so; the Caravan to Ein Aris is a free adventure iirc, and you probably have plenty of info to get through that adventure with just GURPS lite. But for the most part you're going to want to get the basic set, and at least one Genre book for regular play.


attributes don't go up against skills wellNot true at all. Skills are derived directly off of attributes and you certainly resolve some skills by a quick contest of an attribute vs that skill. In some cases you can use an attribute in place of a skill or vice versa.

Knaight
2008-11-06, 09:13 PM
Yes, but skills have an edge on attributes. Nothing compared to D&D, where skills are far, far above attributes leading to stuff like Spot and Listen being skills as opposed to having vision or hearing attributes, but its still somewhat significant.

Jayabalard
2008-11-06, 09:25 PM
Yes, but skills have an edge on attributes. Yes, they have an edge, though it's a not an advantage unless you've spent400-800 hours training (2-4 character points) on something, and it's not a significant advantage until you get quite a bit higher than that.

Are you honestly saying that someone who has trained every day an hour or more for 2-4 years should not have an edge, even a significant edge, over someone who hasn't had any training? Because that seems kind of ludicrous to me.

Ulzgoroth
2008-11-06, 10:06 PM
What do you mean by 'have an edge' anyway? You don't just generically match a skill against an attribute. That doesn't even make sense in Gurps. If you're matching a skill against an attribute, you're going to be doing so with a specific meaning and with any required modifiers.

You're also probably opposing a skill with strength, will, or perception, rather than (more expensive) IQ or DX, which most skills are based on.

Jayabalard, don't forget, skills generally default to the 1 CP level minus 4. The first point buys you the most by a lot.

Satyr
2008-11-07, 10:07 AM
I found that the major problem with the relationship between skills and attributes that it is often advantagous to have high attribute scores and invest only very few poins in skills than putting the majority of the character Points in the skills and only use average attributes. But this is mostly a problem if you don't know this and not really hard to circumvent.

I will put the description of the Olympian Murder Mystery Game in an own thread. It has not to do too much with this thread's original topic.

Cybren
2008-11-07, 02:52 PM
There are many skills and many cases where skills relative levels are important though, (damage bonuses, skills using other attributes) and some where number of points in skills are important (style perks)