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ThrustVectoring
2008-11-02, 11:09 PM
If I cast an energy substituted spell and apply the metamagics Born of the Three Thunders and Repeat Spell, does the 1 round of dazed penalty from Born of the Three Thunders get applied to me when the spell casts again from the Repeat Spell metamagic?

Both metamagic feats from the complete arcane rulebook.

Yasha
2008-11-02, 11:24 PM
If I were running a game and that came up, I would rule yes.

You would be getting the benefit of the feat twice, the Dazed effect would just last two rounds from the initial casting, IMO.

jcsw
2008-11-02, 11:41 PM
It depends in what order you apply the metamagic.

If you apply Born of Three Thunders before Repeat on an instantaneous spell, Born of Three Thunders' effects become part of the spell for the purpose of repeating it. Hence all creatures must make saves in this round and in the next round, when the spell repeats. But you will be dazed in both rounds.

If you apply repeat before Born of Three Thunders, since the saves from Born of Three Thunders only take place "at the conclusion of the spell", enemies would only have to save once, and you would only be dazed once.

(I could be wrong on the second part, though)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-02, 11:43 PM
"Channeling the three thunders is costly, though, and you are automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so."

You're only dazed upon casting a Three Thunders spell, when it Repeats it has nothing to do with your character's actions, so it doesn't happen again. The most a fair DM could do would be to make you double-dazed on casting a Repeat Three Thunders spell, which would be a redundant condition and have no additional effect anyway.

If you cast a Thunderhead spell (SC, deals 1 electrical damage Reflex negates every round for 1 round/level) with Born of the Three Thunders, you won't become Dazed every time it goes off, because that only happens upon casting the spell.

A character with Snowcasting (FB), Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders could Snowcast (adds cold descriptor) a Dragon Breath (SC) substituted to Electricity (switches an energy descriptor and energy damage to electricity) with Born of the Three Thunders in a Contingency, after which he'd be Dazed for a round as per Three Thunders. Set the trigger to be whenever you desire to use a breath attack, when it goes off you won't be Dazed because you've already cast it and been through that, the spell energy was simply stored for later use. That will give you a breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds that deals half electrical and half sonic damage, and forces opponents to save or be knocked prone and stunned every time they're damaged by it. Combine that with Blinding Breath (SC) and your DM will give every opponent a good Reflex save from then on.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-02, 11:45 PM
It depends in what order you apply the metamagic.

If you apply Born of Three Thunders before Repeat on an instantaneous spell, Born of Three Thunders' effects become part of the spell for the purpose of repeating it. Hence all creatures must make saves in this round and in the next round, when the spell repeats. But you will be dazed in both rounds.

If you apply repeat before Born of Three Thunders, since the saves from Born of Three Thunders only take place "at the conclusion of the spell", enemies would only have to save once, and you would only be dazed once.

(I could be wrong on the second part, though)

No, they risk being stunned and knocked prone every time they take damage from a Three Thunders spell.

ThrustVectoring
2008-11-03, 12:02 AM
You're only dazed upon casting a Three Thunders spell, when it Repeats it has nothing to do with your character's actions, so it doesn't happen again. The most a fair DM could do would be to make you double-dazed on casting a Repeat Three Thunders spell, which would be a redundant condition and have no additional effect anyway.

That is the generous interpretation, which allows decent levels of sillyness (force fortitude saves in order to get out of stun-lock, and if they get stunned they get forced to take reflex saves in order to avoid getting prone. And to un-prone themselves it takes their move action)

On an semi-related question, can you energy substitute magic missile? If so, you can burn through 4th level spell slots in order to cast repeat three thunders magic missiles. Hell, even non-repeated thee thunders magic missiles would be useful for the save-or-stun effect.

Also, is there any way to gain immunity to daze? The only thing I can readily think of is a contingency heal.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-03, 12:40 AM
magic Missile has no energy descriptor, so it can't be substituted.

As for daze immunity, the only spell I know of is Favor of the Martyr, from BoED.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-03, 12:55 AM
magic Missile has no energy descriptor, so it can't be substituted.

As for daze immunity, the only spell I know of is Favor of the Martyr, from BoED.
The SRD would disagree with you:


Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]

jcsw
2008-11-03, 01:06 AM
No, they risk being stunned and knocked prone every time they take damage from a Three Thunders spell.


In addition, the spell concludes with a
mighty thunderclap that stuns all creatures that take damage
from the spell for 1 round unless they succeed on a Fortitude
save, then knocks stunned creatures prone unless they succeed
on a Refl ex save

I disagree.

Eclipse
2008-11-03, 01:59 AM
The SRD would disagree with you:

Force is not an elemental energy descriptor, so energy substitutions don't work, as they require it to be elemental energy. The elemental energy descriptors are fire, cold, electricity, acid, and sonic.

monty
2008-11-03, 02:09 AM
You forgot surprise.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-03, 04:37 AM
You can take the feat Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness to spend a move-action to remove your Dazed effect, so you'd be able to cast a Three Thunders spell every round.

Snowcasting from Frostburn adds the Cold descriptor to any spell, which can then be Energy Substituted to Electricity. Keep in mind however that the Three Thunders DC would only be based on a 1st level spell.

Mystery Meep
2008-11-03, 05:25 AM
I'd rule that if you benefit twice, you take the penalty twice. Trying to get around that just seems cheesy to me, and I'd disallow it. (I'd let the player re-pick the feats, probably, but I don't like allowing cheap combos in my games.)

lord_khaine
2008-11-03, 05:49 AM
what cheap combos are you talking about?
the guy here is spending a couple of feats, just to avoid a round of Daze, in my oppinion thats actualy pretty expensive.

ThrustVectoring
2008-11-03, 10:08 AM
You can take the feat Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness to spend a move-action to remove your Dazed effect, so you'd be able to cast a Three Thunders spell every round.

Snowcasting from Frostburn adds the Cold descriptor to any spell, which can then be Energy Substituted to Electricity. Keep in mind however that the Three Thunders DC would only be based on a 1st level spell.

only as a wizard though, since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell requires a full-round action. I could cast a three thunders spell every round-and-a-half, though, by using a standard action to start the next cast, and another standard action to finish the casting next round and then my move action to remove the daze.

monty
2008-11-03, 11:32 AM
only as a wizard though, since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell requires a full-round action. I could cast a three thunders spell every round-and-a-half, though, by using a standard action to start the next cast, and another standard action to finish the casting next round and then my move action to remove the daze.

Rapid Metamagic. Every sorcerer should take it.

Zeful
2008-11-03, 11:37 AM
Rapid Metamagic. Every sorcerer should take it.

Every sorcerer should simply ignore the stupid rule that is spontaneous metamagic. There problem solved.

lord_khaine
2008-11-03, 12:48 PM
Every sorcerer should simply ignore the stupid rule that is spontaneous metamagic. There problem solved.

that might get every sorcerer into problems with his gm...

ThrustVectoring
2008-11-06, 01:24 PM
From the magic item compendium, I could use my face magic item slot for a third eye clarity (3000 gp, CL7 to craft), which would eat a daze 1 time per day.