Is it wise for Xykon to give Redcloak as much power, authority, and trust as he does?

[paladinofshojo]

I don't mean Xykon should take over Redcloak's duties from leading troops, organizing the dark empire, etc. But is it really wise to trust someone whose brother you killed in front of their very eyes? Xykon should at least keep an eye on him right?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Xykon has contingency plans (namely, the Monster in the Darkness) in addition to his belief that he's totally broken Redcloak psychologically. His faith in his own ability to crush peoples' psyches can be seen as overconfident, but it's worked well so far, and what is Xykon if not indescribably self-confident?

[paladinofshojo]

Xykon has contingency plans (namely, the Monster in the Darkness) in addition to his belief that he's totally broken Redcloak psychologically. His faith in his own ability to crush peoples' psyches can be seen as overconfident, but it's worked well so far, and what is Xykon if not indescribably self-confident?

Yes but that little chat with Redcloak and his hobgoblin flunky Jerix shows that he very much doesn't trust Xykon and isn't afraid of working behind Xykon's back.

[FujinAkari]

Wow... this -really- needs an "SoD Spoiler!" in the title...


Anyway... no it isn't. "Xykon" and "wise" do not belong in the same sentence though, so its to be expected :P

[Kaytara]

Wow... this -really- needs an "SoD Spoiler!" in the title...

WORD... If I hadn't already read it, I'd be mighty angry right now.

To answer the question, though... as others have mentioned, he DOESN'T trust him that much. He may be overconfident to a fault, but not so much that he forgoes including a failsafe.
Which, of course, also becomes a Chekhov's Gun to some extent. Where's the sense of including it if it isn't going to be used at least in some way? Redcloak is already heading in the direction of getting over himself, becoming a stronger person and betraying Xykon, so that moment may be coming.

[Mariel Dragon]

Thanks for spoilering me... <insert random insult forbidden due to forum rules here>

Anyways, as I have heard in another spoilering Thread

MitD is charmed so if Redcloak betrays him, the Monster will kill Redcloak and retrieve Xykon's phylactery

[Excal]

Not to mention, there's a large difference between not knowing and not caring. Odds are, what Redcloak's up to isn't as big of a secret as he'd like it to be, it's just that the possible amusement that would result from the attempt is worth a lot more to Xykon than being secure in his rule. I mean, it's not like Xykon's in any really big hurry to get his hands on a Gate.

[Jan Mattys]

Thanks for spoilering me... <insert random insult forbidden due to forum rules here>

Anyways, as I have heard in another spoilering Thread

MitD is charmed so if Redcloak betrays him, the Monster will kill Redcloak and retrieve Xykon's phylactery

I've read this spoiler multiple times, but a question strikes me:

Is MitD wise enough to actually spot a betrayal? I mean, he says to O-Chul he's friend with Right-Eye "even though he hasn't seen him in a while", then says he believes Xykon and Redcloak are his friends because they told him so... If Redcloack kills / betrays / destroys Xykon away from MitD's sight, wouldn't it be pretty easy for the wise goblin to talk MitD into thinking that Xykon simply "went somewhere else"? MitD seems a tad too stupid to be used reliably as a contingency... doesn't it?

[evileeyore]

Thanks for spoilering me... <insert random insult forbidden due to forum rules here>

If it is forbidden, why are you "inserting it here"? :smallwink:


Not to mention, there's a large difference between not knowing and not caring. Odds are, what Redcloak's up to isn't as big of a secret as he'd like it to be, it's just that the possible amusement that would result from the attempt is worth a lot more to Xykon than being secure in his rule.

This is true. Xykon does stuff all the time to simply relieve the boredom of being awesomely undefeatable.

[Kaytara]

I've read this spoiler multiple times, but a question strikes me:

Is MitD wise enough to actually spot a betrayal? I mean, he says to O-Chul he's friend with Right-Eye "even though he hasn't seen him in a while", then says he believes Xykon and Redcloak are his friends because they told him so... If Redcloack kills / betrays / destroys Xykon away from MitD's sight, wouldn't it be pretty easy for the wise goblin to talk MitD into thinking that Xykon simply "went somewhere else"? MitD seems a tad too stupid to be used reliably as a contingency... doesn't it?

I wondered about that too. While, rationally, you're probably right, I think that having the MitD attack Redcloak and then having O-Chul or whoever else infuence him to stop would be better drama. Maybe.

[King of Nowhere]

I agree:
:mitd: Did you just disintegrated Xykon??
:redcloak: No, he was just one of his twin skeleton brothers
:mitd: Uh, fine then.

Back on topic, remember that Xykon believes in personal power rather than scheming. So he believes that, no matter what Redcloak try against him, he would be able to win.
Also, keeping an eye on redcloack would be extremely boring, and Xykon is very weak in that point.
I believe Xykon will regret that in the future.

[FrankNorman]

Xykon is not wise. Cunning, and able to react quickly to what's right in front of him, but he's also been lucky.
Xykon thought himself a master of "turning one's (un)death into a tactical advantage", but was getting schooled in that by Soon.
If Miko "its all about meeee" the fallen paladin hadn't done her thing, Soon would soon have finished Xykon and Redcloak off.

A bit like Elan. It seems the OOTS-verse rules of probability have a soft spot for chaotic, high-charisma people.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I've read this spoiler multiple times, but a question strikes me:

Is MitD wise enough to actually spot a betrayal? I mean, he says to O-Chul he's friend with Right-Eye "even though he hasn't seen him in a while", then says he believes Xykon and Redcloak are his friends because they told him so... If Redcloack kills / betrays / destroys Xykon away from MitD's sight, wouldn't it be pretty easy for the wise goblin to talk MitD into thinking that Xykon simply "went somewhere else"? MitD seems a tad too stupid to be used reliably as a contingency... doesn't it?
Of course, Redcloak doesn't know the MitD is so charmed, so he wouldn't necessarily have any compunctions about striking at Xykon right in front of MitD. Of course, even without the charm, MitD still considers Xykon to be a friend, so it still probably wouldn't be wise.

And even if Redcloak did choose to go behind MitD's back, the Chekhov's Gun nature of the charm would prevent such an attempt at secrecy from failing. Just one of those dramatic rules. The Universe will conspire to activate the charm.

[Defiant]

Wow... this -really- needs an "SoD Spoiler!" in the title...

I guess I just can't read this forum anymore ><

[Jan Mattys]

Of course, Redcloak doesn't know the MitD is so charmed, so he wouldn't necessarily have any compunctions about striking at Xykon right in front of MitD. Of course, even without the charm, MitD still considers Xykon to be a friend, so it still probably wouldn't be wise.

And even if Redcloak did choose to go behind MitD's back, the Chekhov's Gun nature of the charm would prevent such an attempt at secrecy from failing. Just one of those dramatic rules. The Universe will conspire to activate the charm.

You misunderstood me:
I'm not saying that the charm command will never trigger. Of course it will, and of course Redcloak will turn against Xykon towards the end of the story. Redcloak is too interesting and too powerful (and too cool) a character to be a lackey of the major baddie.
What I meant, though, is that even if Chekhov's gun technique is triggered (and I'm pretty sure it will be), we could have the author double-bluffing us, nullifying its effects on the simple basis that MitD is just too dumb to be effective. We would then see Redcloak save his neck against all odds simply by bluffing the mighty monster. It would be brilliant, in a way, because we've been told quite a few times that MitD is TRULY mighty combat-wise, so there would be little to no point in showing it in a fight. I think its good nature and relatively low wisdom will be the key elements in the end.

So basically: I know the Chekhov's Gun technique will apply, but I think it will not be carried on as expected.

...and by the way: my opinion on the MitD clearly puts me among those who think Xykon is FAR from being a wise guy.
As a rule of thumb: You want a smart bodyguard more than you want a tough one, if you already possess all the might you need, but you know your biggest flaw and weakness is your very short attention span...

Am I right?

[Mauve Shirt]

Wouldn't the charm compel the MITD to kill Redcloak whether or not the MITD actually thought it was true that RC'd betrayed Xykon?

[Jan Mattys]

Wouldn't the charm compel the MITD to kill Redcloak whether or not the MITD actually thought it was true that RC'd betrayed Xykon?

Err? I don't know, but it sounds weird... what would trigger it then, if not MitD's perception???

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't know, maybe it'd just be an automatic thing? I suppose there would have to be some charm around Redcloak or something for that to be the case.... I dunno, it seems like a pretty poor plan to base it on the MITD's perception.

[NerfTW]

I've read this spoiler multiple times, but a question strikes me:

Is MitD wise enough to actually spot a betrayal? I mean, he says to O-Chul he's friend with Right-Eye "even though he hasn't seen him in a while", then says he believes Xykon and Redcloak are his friends because they told him so... If Redcloack kills / betrays / destroys Xykon away from MitD's sight, wouldn't it be pretty easy for the wise goblin to talk MitD into thinking that Xykon simply "went somewhere else"? MitD seems a tad too stupid to be used reliably as a contingency... doesn't it?


The MitD doesn't know he's been charmed, though. The gaeis (sp?) doesn't require him to understand the betrayal, it will just compel him to act. Also, it is highly unlikely Redcloak will be able to destroy Xykon in one hit, or destroy him and the holy symbol before MitD attacks and eats him.


And as Xykon has shown before, he probably doesn't trust Redcloak. He probably has a contingency plan in effect to prevent an instant kill. For starters, he's epic level, and Redcloak isn't. Plus, he knows that Redcloak won't betray the plan just to get rid of him at this point.

The only thing Xykon might not know is that
the plan is to transfer the gates to the celestial realms and hold the gods hostage. Which only Redcloak and the Dark One know about. But that doesn't require Redcloak to ever betray Xykon, since the second the ritual is complete, they'll likely die and the Dark One will move the gate to the appropriate location. Redcloak has stated he is willing to be erased from existence to ensure the Dark One's plan succeeds.

[Linkavitch]

I'm pretty sure it's either 'cuz they are both working towards a common goal, or they both know that Xykon can beat the crap out of Redcloak anytime he wants to.

[Cizak]

Wow... this -really- needs an "SoD Spoiler!" in the title...

Yes, it does!


Thank you SO MUCH, paladinofshojo! Have you ever heard of the people who hasn't read a book but doesn't want to hear a spoiler because they might read it someday!? GOD DAMNIT!! :smallfurious:

[factotum]

+1 to the "put SPOILER in the title already"--I've read SoD but I think people who haven't are going to be mightily irritated at the massive spoiler you've included in the first post. What's worse is that you posted at least once more already in this thread, so you could have fixed it then but apparently chose not to...

Anyway, Xykon may allow Redcloak power and authority, but trust? Absolutely no freakin' way. Don't forget Xykon's line:


Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.


I suspect Xykon knows a lot more than Redcloak thinks he does...

[Georlik]

His faith in his own ability to crush peoples' psyches can be seen as overconfident, but it's worked well so far...

Two words: "O-chul".
Oh, or is it just one word?

[NerfTW]

The book has been out for over a year now. You're on a forum for discussing the plot of the comic and books. Slip ups are going to happen, especially after a whole year. It's difficult to keep track of what hasn't been revealed in the comic, not to mention Redcloak's current motivations are directly related to SoD.

You should probably expect spoilers at this point. Or should we make sure to start spoiler tagging the end of Empire Strikes Back as well, just in case someone hasn't seen it?

Vader is Luke's dad!

[lord_khaine]

i cant see how it can be hard to keep track of one of the major turning points in SoD, and the fate of a character that we only see in the before mentioned book.

[Renegade Paladin]

And Vader is Luke's father. Yes, he should have put it in spoiler tags, but seriously, is anyone surprised that this happened? It was inevitable. It's probably happened before, and I guarantee it will happen again.

[David Argall]

SoD
I don't mean Xykon should take over Redcloak's duties from leading troops, organizing the dark empire, etc. But is it really wise to trust someone whose brother you killed in front of their very eyes?
Redcloak did the killing. Now Xykon allowed that to happen, and knew full well it would. But it is Redcloak who did the deed, and Xykon rightly considers the incident proof he can trust Redcloak a very long way. The idea Redcloak is going to turn on Xykon is simply not based on the evidence before us.



...MitD..., the Chekhov's Gun nature of the charm...
A Chekhov's Gun works on the principle that everything is to be used. However, that does not mean the use is important.
A writer writing about a street scene may dwell on this hot chick wearing the legal minimum. To the sorrow of the male readers, that may be all we hear of her. She has already served a purpose in the story. But when the writer mentions her less noticeable sister, we have reason to suspect we will be hearing more of her.
Now when Xykon charms MitD, this is the setup for several jokes. It also serves to tell us that at that point Xykon doesn't fully trust Redcloak The charm thus has already been used in the story and thus need not get any later mention at all.

We might note too that information in the supplement books is supplemental. If it is going to happen in the strip, you will read about it there. Thus we get a summary of Haley's Origin chapter in the strip.
But how does one get the charm of MitD into the strip? Xykon and MitD are the only ones who know about it, and MitD has forgotten it. It seems it will take more space to bring it back into the story than it did to put it in in the first place.
By contrast, say he had never mentioned it at all. Xykon has pulled tricks like the bouncy ball. So we would not be upset a scene of Redcloak attacks Xykon and then MitD attacks Redcloak while Xykon gloats about his preparation paying off. We don't need the scene of MitD being charmed to accept that Xykon charmed him.

So it seems unlikely this is much of a CG.

[Winged One]

There certainly is a statute of limitations on spoilers, but it's poor form to assume that it's passed by now without evidence.

As for the question itself, hell no. If for no other reason than the fact that Xykon is doing it. Breathing was unwise back when he did it (at least in his presence).:smallwink:

[Mauve Shirt]

Two words: "O-chul".
Oh, or is it just one word?

He wasn't trying to crush O-Chul's psyche, Xykon was just using him for entertainment purposes.

[Kaytara]

The book has been out for over a year now. You're on a forum for discussing the plot of the comic and books. Slip ups are going to happen, especially after a whole year. It's difficult to keep track of what hasn't been revealed in the comic, not to mention Redcloak's current motivations are directly related to SoD.

You should probably expect spoilers at this point. Or should we make sure to start spoiler tagging the end of Empire Strikes Back as well, just in case someone hasn't seen it?

Vader is Luke's dad!

Don't be so categorical. There ARE, after all, people who maybe just recently started reading the comic and haven't yet become serious enough about their fandom to start buying background material. There are plenty of people like that. Pretty much everyone starts out like that, so no, comparing the spoilers in that book to a plot twist in a film that's been out for several decades and has been completely absorbed into culture by now is, how shall I say it, inappropriate.

And really... shouldn't a mod have fixed the title by now?

[Jamin]

Xykon did not kill Redcloak's brother Redcloak did

[NerfTW]

I see it the same as someone who hasn't read the entire strip coming to the forums. If you come to a forum that is dedicated to discussing the plot, make sure you've read the entire plot. The spoilers should only be there when the book first came out to account for people who didn't have money to buy it immediately.

Just in case anyone who is new is reading this, the following is spoilered:
Xykon isn't destroyed in the first battle.
There's more than one gate.
The blue cloaked Assassin is a Paladin.
Haley loses her speech.
Belkar has a mark of justice put on him, preventing him from killing anyone.
Nale replaces Elan for three days, resulting in Haley regaining her speech.
Xykon attacks Azure city.
Miko kills Shojo, falls, and subsequently dies destroying the gate.
Roy dies too.
Azure City falls.
The order is split in two.
Belkar activated his mark of justice.
Roy is now a bone golem.
V has left the Order behind.

[Querzis]

Anyway, Xykon may allow Redcloak power and authority, but trust? Absolutely no freakin' way. Don't forget Xykon's line:


Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.


This basically sum up this whole thread as far as I'm concerned. Xykon obviously doesnt trust Redcloak entirely as we saw in SoD. But he simply doesnt care. There is no way Redcloak could take him and the MiTD down and he really doesnt see why Redcloak would do it either. Anyone who think Redcloak will betray Xykon isnt reading the same comic as me or at least didnt read SoD. Betraying Xykon would go against everything Redcloak believe in and it would make every sacrifice he did until now useless. Xykon is vital to his plan and he cant do the ritual without him.

No, Redcloak wont betray Xykon or at least, not as long as hes alive:

Remember that he does think Xykon and him will be killed by the Snarl at the end of the ritual. He just doesnt care.

And by the way, this thread make me realize once again that some people really underestimate Xykon. Hes really lazy, hes childish sometimes and hes really laidback. But dont confuse that with stupidity, immaturity and ignorance or you're gonna be sorry. Xykon is really sly, manipulative and resourceful.

And by the way, even if he really woudnt trust Redcloak, no. Giving the control of your army to someone whos obviously a brillant tactician isnt unwise, especially when you know that the army cant do anything against you even if he turn them against you (good old lich damage reduction).

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Sure, it is. Redcloak has proven himself a reliable minion.

[lord_khaine]

I see it the same as someone who hasn't read the entire strip coming to the forums. If you come to a forum that is dedicated to discussing the plot, make sure you've read the entire plot. The spoilers should only be there when the book first came out to account for people who didn't have money to buy it immediately

there is a huge difference betveen spoilers from a strip you can read on the same site, and stuff from a book you might not even have had the chance to buy yet, because you live in another country.
it was first recently that the book came to my local store fx.

[BRC]

Xykon is smarter than people give him credit for. He's not stupid, he's just not interested in most things. He's also smart enough to know that Redcloak is smarter than he is.
In SoD, he was able to read Redcloak very well, and once Redcloak killed his own brother in order to protect Xykon, Xykon felt he could trust redcloak. You see, Redcloak killed Right-eye because he refused to admit he had made a mistake in allying with Xykon, it would mean that all the goblins he's led to their deaths died in vain, it would mean that The Plan is not working, it would mean that the last forty or so years of his life have been wasted, it would mean that he killed his own brother for nothing. Redcloak can't admit that to himself, so he's loyal.
Xykon is also smart enough to see that Redcloak is better than he is at things like leading troops, organizing minions, and making plans. For now, Redcloak and Xykon are working towrds the same goal, and Xykon finds that stuff boring anyway, so he let's RC do it.

[Kish]

I see it the same as someone who hasn't read the entire strip coming to the forums.
The question is, how does Rich see it?

[Helanna]

I see it the same as someone who hasn't read the entire strip coming to the forums.

Except if you're just coming to the forums, you may not even know that there are prequels. I didn't for quite a while, and I didn't have the money to buy the books for MONTHS. It only takes a second to type *spoiler*, and it's only common sense that not everybody who wants to has read it.

Besides, isn't it in the forum rules?

[tokonaut]

Don't be so categorical. There ARE, after all, people who maybe just recently started reading the comic and haven't yet become serious enough about their fandom to start buying background material. There are plenty of people like that. Pretty much everyone starts out like that, so no, comparing the spoilers in that book to a plot twist in a film that's been out for several decades and has been completely absorbed into culture by now is, how shall I say it, inappropriate.

And really... shouldn't a mod have fixed the title by now?

Ther is also the problem that maybe some avid readers have been unable to FIND the background books.

[Gargor]

I think Redcloaks one major weakness is that he cannot face his crimes, he cannot go on unless he believes all the goblins he sacrificed were necessary. That is why he killed his brother, he couldn't face his himself and would rather kill his brother than admit that all those goblins died because of his mistakes. As such he can never betray Xykon unless it would further the Dark One's plan.

[Deploy]

It seems to me that RC has developed his own following. I however believe that he's a sniveling coward who couldn't betray Xykon if he wanted to unless he first grew a pair. I believe that this sentence has probably angered quite a few people. Right now as far as primary loyalists go RC is no Darth Vader. He falls more into the category of Grima Wormtongue. Even if RedCloak tried to betray Xykes it would never work. If anyone gets to kill Xykon it'll be Roy. Xykon is to smart to let RedCloak defeat him.

[Jan Mattys]

It seems to me that RC has developed his own following. I however believe that he's a sniveling coward who couldn't betray Xykon if he wanted to unless he first grew a pair. I believe that this sentence has probably angered quite a few people. Right now as far as primary loyalists go RC is no Darth Vader. He falls more into the category of Grima Wormtongue. Even if RedCloak tried to betray Xykes it would never work. If anyone gets to kill Xykon it'll be Roy. Xykon is to smart to let RedCloak defeat him.

Betray and defeat were not synonyms, last time I checked.

[Felixaar]

Having read SoD, yeah, it's fine for Xykon to let Redcloak have power. Because...

Even if Redcloak betrays Xykon, the CitD is going to eat him and spit out Xykon's psylachtery.

[PandaCthulhu]

For me, not wise, but inevitable.

Xykon is, in many ways, the classic Evil Overlord. He is overconfident, self-assured, secure in his self-belief and in the fact that all his minions are cowed by his superiority. As such, he will view Redcloak as being so far beneath him that the possiblity of betrayal is insignificant - even if Redcloak did betray him, he would know that he could deal with it.

Part of the humour of Xykon is that he conforms to the classical stereotype in so many ways, while maintaining a degree of originality in the interpretation of the character. but then this description could be applied to almost all of the main characters - they are a parody of D&D stereotypes, while at the same time being completely original and funny.

[[TS] Shadow]

Spolier Alert! (due to me sucking at spolier tags and not knowing how they work. I suck.)

In SoD and DCF, as well as the beginning of NCftPB, Xykon can be confident in his ability to trust Redcloak. Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak completely, but Redcloak can't beat Xykon at that point, even without the MitD.

Redcloak has a freaking army of hobgoblins at his disposal now. Note that Redcloak, not Xykon is the leader of said army. As powerful as Xykon is, he can't take on thousands of well trained soliders and Redcloak even with help from the MitD. He obivously has a plan, but I don't think it's wise to place so much power into the hands of someone who has a freaking ARMY to fight for them.

[snafu]

Ther is also the problem that maybe some avid readers have been unable to FIND the background books.

Never even seen a SoD. Saw an OoPCs in Forbidden Planet once, I think, but that was before I started reading the comic.

I'd agree that there's no need to spoiler-space the webcomic itself, but the books? Those things are seriously scarce. Assuming everyone's read them, or even reasonably could have read them, is far from safe.

[Querzis]

Shadow;5244538']Redcloak has a freaking army of hobgoblins at his disposal now. Note that Redcloak, not Xykon is the leader of said army. As powerful as Xykon is, he can't take on thousands of well trained soliders and Redcloak even with help from the MitD. He obivously has a plan, but I don't think it's wise to place so much power into the hands of someone who has a freaking ARMY to fight for them.

Ever heard about «damage reduction»? Yes, Xykon can easely take the entire army by himself. They simply dont have anything that could possibly harm him especially since, as an undead, hes immune to critical and one-hit kill. Go read the lich (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) description and remember that hes an epic level sorcerer, he can beat them all. Redcloak is the only one who can even damage him. It wont even bother him since the only difference it will make is that hes gonna have a zombie army instead of a hobgobelins army (yes I know, Xykon cant control that many undead but you get the point).

And unless the MiTD is not immune to critical and one-hit kill, which would surprise me considering how powerfull hes supposed to be, he cant even more easely kill them all, he just have to stomp on the ground a few times.

This is D&D, an army of low level character cant do anything against an epic-level undead. Hell in the battle against the martyr-ghost, I doubt anyone else then Soon and possibly O-chul even hurt him.

[Aquillion]

Ever heard about «damage reduction»? Yes, Xykon can easely take the entire army by himself. They simply dont have anything that could possibly harm him especially since, as an undead, hes immune to critical and one-hit kill. Go read the lich (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) description and remember that hes an epic level sorcerer, he can beat them all. Redcloak is the only one who can even damage him. It wont even bother him since the only difference it will make is that hes gonna have a zombie army instead of a hobgobelins army (yes I know, Xykon cant control that many undead but you get the point).

And unless the MiTD is not immune to critical and one-hit kill, which would surprise me considering how powerfull hes supposed to be, he cant even more easely kill them all, he just have to stomp on the ground a few times.

This is D&D, an army of low level character cant do anything against an epic-level undead. Hell in the battle against the martyr-ghost, I doubt anyone else then Soon and possibly O-chul even hurt him.
It's damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Not that impressive. A few wagons of clubs with magic weapon cast on them will handle that.

I don't think they could beat Redcloak alone, but they'd give him more trouble than you think, enough to distract him at the very least.

[Querzis]

It's damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Not that impressive. A few wagons of clubs with magic weapon cast on them will handle that.

I don't think they could beat Redcloak alone, but they'd give him more trouble than you think, enough to distract him at the very least.

He can fly...whats the point of clubs?

[Aquillion]

He can fly...whats the point of clubs?
Actually... using greater magic weapon on sling bullets would make more sense. You can get 50 at a time, they're blunt, they can hit him at range. Combine with several low-level casters to counterspell his inevitable Wind Wall and so forth and it shouldn't be hard.

[David Argall]

Shadow;5244538']Spolier Alert! (due to me sucking at spolier tags and not knowing how they work. I suck.)


Spoiler tags work much the same as Quote. You write [spoiler ] text [/spoiler ], without the spaces.
you do the same with a quote [quote ] text [/quote ], again without the space.

[Querzis]

Actually... using greater magic weapon on sling bullets would make more sense. You can get 50 at a time, they're blunt, they can hit him at range. Combine with several low-level casters to counterspell his inevitable Wind Wall and so forth and it shouldn't be hard.

...you mean that Greater magic weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Magic_Weapon) which only Redcloak can possibly cast in the first place and which would only allow a few hobgelins that could probably all be taken out by a fireball since they would have to be very close to each other to hit Xykon? Are you talking about that greater magic weapons? Redcloak is better out buffing himself instead of wasting a spell on that. Especially considering the fact that, with Xykon level and Lich +5 natural armor bonus, I doubt they would hit him in the first place.

By the way, Wind wall? What are you taking Xykon for? Hes a blaster so hes gonna blast them, plain and simple.

Look if its a normal army of low-level character vs a normal epic character I vote for the army. But a lich which is immune to critical and one-hit kill (which is pretty much the only way to take out an epic level character)? No, not so much. Even if Xykon doesnt kill your guys there is maybe two or three hobgobelins who are gonna hit him...with a sling. A sling. Most other level four spells would do more damage. Beside, just take one symbol of insanity and Redcloak army become a nuisance since, unlike Xykon, he doesnt have damage reduction and isnt immune to critical.

[PandaCthulhu]

Never even seen a SoD. Saw an OoPCs in Forbidden Planet once, I think, but that was before I started reading the comic.

I'd agree that there's no need to spoiler-space the webcomic itself, but the books? Those things are seriously scarce. Assuming everyone's read them, or even reasonably could have read them, is far from safe.

Not that scarce:
http://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html
OR
http://apegames.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=OOTSB

It is how I got my copy of SoD, and delivery cost to the UK was reasonable - not sure about delivery costs to Europe, Australia, etc, etc, but their site tells you the delivery cost before you get to the payment stage.

But since not everyone who is a fan is in a position to obtain SoD or OoPCs, I'd agree that references to material within them should be spoilered.

[Aquillion]

...you mean that Greater magic weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Magic_Weapon) which only Redcloak can possibly cast in the first place and which would only allow a few hobgelins that could probably all be taken out by a fireball since they would have to be very close to each other to hit Xykon? Are you talking about that greater magic weapons? Redcloak is better out buffing himself instead of wasting a spell on that. Especially considering the fact that, with Xykon level and Lich +5 natural armor bonus, I doubt they would hit him in the first place.Nah. Redcloak can't possibly spend every single slot he has on buffs (there simply aren't enough.) He's at least 15th level, so he has a lot of spell slots levels 4 and above (4 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1), and many more if he's a level or two higher or has wisdom of 19+. Xykon won't give him a chance to use all those in combat, and there simply aren't enough buffs to use them all.

On top of that, his Greater Magic Weapon lasts at least 15 hours. He has 4+3+2+1 = 10 slots he can spend to extend it to 30 hours, giving him enough time to rest and get those slots back before he attacks (and producing a total of 500 totally free enchanted sling stones.) In fact, because of the way clerics regain their spells (one hour of meditation at the necessary point in time, no need to rest) he can actually devote nearly all his spell slots to GMW twice, and still recover them all before he fights Xykon, as follows:

Just before his mediation time, he spends all his level 5+ spell slots on Extended GMW (these are at least 10 slots lasting at least 30 hours.) He meditates and regains his spells.

Just shy of 24 hours after casting his Extended GMWs (and just before he gets to meditate again) he uses all his level 4+ slots to cast regular GMW (at least 14 slots). He then meditates for the allocated hour, regains all spells, casts any buffs he wants, and attacks.

This produces a total of at least 1200 +5 sling bullets, all of which ignore Xykon's DR. (He can produce even more using his extra spell slots just before he attacks Xykon, if he wants -- it's unlikely he'll use all those 4th-5th level slots.) He then gives one bullet to every soldier with a sling, choosing his highest-ranking soldiers (and giving Xykon as few rounds as possible to avoid the damage.) Having large numbers of soldiers attack instead of a few more heavily buffed ones also avoids getting them easily blasted.

While Xykon is immune to criticals, a natural 20 still hits. Therefore, on average 60 sling bullets will hit (and with +5, using his best soldiers, it's not a stretch to say that a few non-natural 20s will hit too, especially if Redcloak opens with a spell that makes Xykon easier to hit.) Each of these does at least 1d4+5 plus strength mod damage, for at least 6 (and with Hobgoblins, that strength mod is going to be high), so if they catch him by surprise and get a surprise round to fire en masse, Xykon is taking at least 300-540 damage on average, probably much more.

Now, granted, if he gets a chance to act he can easily handle it -- but even then, in combat with an epic-level caster even forcing him to waste an action with a strategy like that (which doesn't involve spending an action yourself, during the fight) is a major accomplishment. On top of this, it's likely that (assuming he doesn't flee and survives somehow), Xykon will not know or realize that the soldiers don't have any more magic bullets -- next round he'll assume they're still a threat and will react accordingly, and every round he spends blasting them is a round he doesn't spend blasting Redcloak or doing something else.

Also, note that with the sling's range increment of 50 feet, we only need to get those 1200 hobgoblins within 500 feet of Xykon (we don't care about the range increment penalty, since a natural 20 will still hit.)

Is it likely to beat him if they don't catch him totally by surprise? Not at all; he can still just go ethereal or teleport away. But it isn't something he can totally ignore, the way you implied; and if they do catch him completely unaware, it could actually finish him before either him or the MitD get a chance to respond.

(This also assumes Redcloak has no relevant metamagic feats beyond Extend, which we've seen him use. If he has chain spell or something similar, he can produce many, many more sling bullets than that.)

[Spiky]

And by the way, this thread make me realize once again that some people really underestimate Xykon. Hes really lazy, hes childish sometimes and hes really laidback. But dont confuse that with stupidity, immaturity and ignorance or you're gonna be sorry. Xykon is really sly, manipulative and resourceful.


I think you have misunderstood him. He IS lacking INT (or is it WIS?) and ignorant of tactics. He is the opposite of sly, and has proved that many times in the comic by just barging into scenes and starting to trash stuff, much to the chagrin of Redcloak at times when he had a plan. I didn't look it up to get quotes, but Xykon wasn't even using appropriate attacks in the ghost paladin battle. This attitude was also commented on by his teacher when he was still human.

The point is, he is so powerful that it doesn't matter. At least, that is his viewpoint. Only another epic character has ever done any serious harm to him since he became a lich. This is likely to be his downfall once again. He got lucky the first time thanks to Miko the Insane.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Some of this might have been mentioned previously so sorry if I repeat someone.

One mistake that people keep on making with Xykon is that they are confusing "not smart" and "stupid." Xykon simply lacks the technical knowledge that comes with Wizardry. He can't spot something and recognize it from classes and know what to do. He has to adapt and improvise from what he sees in front of him. In that fight with the ghost paladins, he simply saw his spell not working. Since he didn't know about the low chance of affecting them, he might just as easily have assumed that they had spell resistance or good saves. If that were the case as a primary caster his only option is to cast more spells to make sure that some get through. One Xykon knows information he is remarkably good with it. For example once he learned about the diary revealing the locations of the other tombs he immediately set to decoding it. Because of his average intelligence it took him a lot of time. As an immortal lich with a timeless sidekick (Redcloak) and followers that can be turned easily into undead this doesn't matter. Further more he already set up the monster in the darkness to kill Redcloak and preserve the phylaxry (I can't spell that, or say it for that matter) if he is betrayed. In short I feel that Xykon knows exactly how much to trust Redcloak, as long as his interests and the interests of the goblin race are similar, Redcloak is useful and trustable. If those differ then Xykon is likely to start trusting Redcloak less.

[Aquillion]

With that said, though, it's a mistake to overestimate Xykon's intelligence, too. I think that his phylactery and his undead status often makes him overconfident. He's already gotten wiped once by a bald fighter who's probably about half his level, and would have gotten Killed Off For Real in Azure City if Miko hadn't screwed things up.

He's not about to blow himself up out of incompetence or walk into an obvious trap, sure. But he's not a genius at planning and strategy, either; he was smart enough to set up a contingency against Redcloak, but it's easy to see how he could grow complacent after that.

[Zordrath]

Xykon needs Redcloak, but he knows that RC needs him, too. The Plan is everything to Redcloak, as proven in SoD, and Xykon is rightly confident that RC won't let his thirst for revenge against one person get in the way of achieving what he believes best for the Goblin race. He still doesn't fully trust him, or he wouldn't have charmed the MitD, but I think he's right in believing that RC won't betray him anytime soon.

Now, I'm absolutely sure that Xykon knows warping the gate won't end with 'you rule half of the world, I rule the other half'. He probably doesn't know the full extent to which Redcloak has lied to him, but I think he fully expects RC to turn on him after the Plan is completed (and conversely, Xykon is surely planning to do the same - he's not the kind of guy to share power when he doesn't have to).

[Zerg Cookie]

I don't mean Xykon should take over Redcloak's duties from leading troops, organizing the dark empire, etc. But is it really wise to trust someone whose brother you killed in front of their very eyes? Xykon should at least keep an eye on him right?

SoD
Redcloak killed Righteye to protect Xykon, so no, Xykon didn't kill Righteye
I doubt that Xykon even noticed that Righteye was jumping towards him, because Redcloak killed him about half-way in the air while Xykon was busy fighting Durokan

[Scion_of_Darkness]

With that said, though, it's a mistake to overestimate Xykon's intelligence, too. I think that his phylactery and his undead status often makes him overconfident. He's already gotten wiped once by a bald fighter who's probably about half his level, and would have gotten Killed Off For Real in Azure City if Miko hadn't screwed things up.

Remember what I was saying. He may not have the actual knowledge to prepare for these things. He had no way of knowing about the Azure City Ghost Paladins, nor did he anticipate the gate being used to destroy him. Now that these options are on the table he is able to adapt to them. In the real world intelligence is not measured by what you know, its measured by how well you use what information you are given. By that scale I would rate Xykon as highly intelligent, but not necessarily very knowledgeable.

[B. Dandelion]

With that said, though, it's a mistake to overestimate Xykon's intelligence, too. I think that his phylactery and his undead status often makes him overconfident. He's already gotten wiped once by a bald fighter who's probably about half his level, and would have gotten Killed Off For Real in Azure City if Miko hadn't screwed things up.

He's not about to blow himself up out of incompetence or walk into an obvious trap, sure. But he's not a genius at planning and strategy, either; he was smart enough to set up a contingency against Redcloak, but it's easy to see how he could grow complacent after that.
Man I am so glad to hear someone else say this because I really do feel so many people attribute to him almost godlike abilities of intelligence, perception, and an understanding of basic human nature.*

He's not exactly dumb. And he's creative. His laziness -- in and of itself -- does not indicate stupidity. It does, however, indicate a lack of intellectual curiosity. He uses what he does know in the most direct application of brute force that he can devise, and he isn't interested in learning how to do things in any other way. To paraphrase a conversation in SoD, his methods often work, but that isn't really the point, and Xykon completely fails to understand why his success rate shouldn't be the entire point.

As to Redcloak, he is wise to trust him to the degree that he does, because he is sure that Redcloak's goals depend on Xykon's success -- they do need each other, after all. And Redcloak is a skilled administrator and planner, which is the kind of necessary work Xykon himself is totally uninterested in. However having read SoD I think that while Xykon does feel he has total control over his lackey, he doesn't really understand him to the degree he thinks he does. And never really has.

*ok technically not just humans in a fantasy setting, but you know what I mean, right?

[Prak]

Wow... this -really- needs an "SoD Spoiler!" in the title...


Anyway... no it isn't. "Xykon" and "wise" do not belong in the same sentence though, so its to be expected :P

exactly, Xykon's not stupid, but he is an idiot. He's also got his strings on backwards... the puppet is definately controlling the master.


Not to mention, there's a large difference between not knowing and not caring. Odds are, what Redcloak's up to isn't as big of a secret as he'd like it to be, it's just that the possible amusement that would result from the attempt is worth a lot more to Xykon than being secure in his rule. I mean, it's not like Xykon's in any really big hurry to get his hands on a Gate.
This is also true... it's possible Xykon knows exactly what's going on, and likes it that way. He is intelligent, and has basically reached the ultimate level of Delegation. He has given Redcloak what redcloak believes to be the upper hand which lets him do the things he really wants, such as have fun. And he doesn't have to lift a finger or make any plans, because Redcloak does all of that.

[Jan Mattys]

I still think this: (I don't know if it's still useful to spoiler this because a lot of people just ignored the spoiler habit and posted straight... but still...)

I still think it's very dumb for a powerful being whose biggest flaw and limit is the short attention span to protect himself against a wise and quite powerful cleric by setting up a contingency based on another very powerful but stupid (or unwise, you choose) being.
I mean, what use is the MiTD for Xykon??? The lich can deliver as much destruction and mayhem as the MiTD, if not more... What Xykon needs to protect himself is an intelligent and wise bodyguard able to keep its eyes open, not another juggernaut, because you know... Xykon will never have the problem to get outpowered by RedCloak... The risk is to get outsmarted.

So why get a powerful bodyguard as a contingency, when what you're lacking is NOT power, but attention to possible treacherous plots? The MiTD will not be able to *spot* a treacherous machination anyway, so he's little to no use to Xykon, imho.

The fact is probably that Xykon *ONLY* believes in force... And that's its bigger limit, that I'm sure will prove fatal in the end.

[Aquillion]

I still think this: (I don't know if it's still useful to spoiler this because a lot of people just ignored the spoiler habit and posted straight... but still...)

I still think it's very dumb for a powerful being whose biggest flaw and limit is the short attention span to protect himself against a wise and quite powerful cleric by setting up a contingency based on another very powerful but stupid (or unwise, you choose) being.
I mean, what use is the MiTD for Xykon??? The lich can deliver as much destruction and mayhem as the MiTD, if not more... What Xykon needs to protect himself is an intelligent and wise bodyguard able to keep its eyes open, not another juggernaut, because you know... Xykon will never have the problem to get outpowered by RedCloak... The risk is to get outsmarted.

So why get a powerful bodyguard as a contingency, when what you're lacking is NOT power, but attention to possible treacherous plots? The MiTD will not be able to *spot* a treacherous machination anyway, so he's little to no use to Xykon, imho.

The fact is probably that Xykon *ONLY* believes in force... And that's its bigger limit, that I'm sure will prove fatal in the end.
The thing is, Xykon does have a wise, intelligent right-hand man to cover things that call for careful planning.

Sure, he could get another smart guy to protect him from his first smart guy, but then who's going to protect him from the second guy? Anyone smart and attentive enough to do better than Xykon himself is going to be smart enough to not want to play second fiddle to a megalomanical lich for all eternity. The MitD may not be clever, but at least Xykon knows he's probably not going to get betrayed by it.

Of course, genre conventions say that he probably will get betrayed by the MitD. But that's something different.

[Tyrael]

Dammit, spoilers please? :smallfurious: I was actually planning on reading that book someday...

[Prak]

The thing is, Xykon does have a wise, intelligent right-hand man to cover things that call for careful planning.

Sure, he could get another smart guy to protect him from his first smart guy, but then who's going to protect him from the second guy? Anyone smart and attentive enough to do better than Xykon himself is going to be smart enough to not want to play second fiddle to a megalomanical lich for all eternity. The MitD may not be clever, but at least Xykon knows he's probably not going to get betrayed by it.

Of course, genre conventions say that he probably will get betrayed by the MitD. But that's something different.

We still have no clue what the monster in the darkness is... he could be a construct specifically programmed to be a magic betrayal sensor. The MitD may not have to be smart to notice betrayal, it may have a sleeper program designed to trigger when Xykon is betrayed. Hell, maybe he's a corrupted kolyarut geased to be dim until the contract between Xykon and Redcloak is broken.

[Alias]

I just finished buying and reading Start of Darkness and if I had to guess Xykon is nowhere near as dumb as he gets made out to be. I'd guess his intelligence at 13 or 14 before becoming a lich - smarter than average but not at the genius level required to study wizardry. However, becoming a lich adds 4 points to the int score so he's clocking aroung 17-18 now due to that change. The vile cunning he displays in the book post change over as well as the deciphering of the notes as to where the gates are show that, when he wants to, he can plan and think and beyond that he can do so on a very high level.

The scariest part is he's learned to take advantage of people underestimating his intelligence and plays up the dumb sorcerer act as much as possible.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I just finished buying and reading Start of Darkness and if I had to guess Xykon is nowhere near as dumb as he gets made out to be. I'd guess his intelligence at 13 or 14 before becoming a lich - smarter than average but not at the genius level required to study wizardry. However, becoming a lich adds 4 points to the int score so he's clocking aroung 17-18 now due to that change. The vile cunning he displays in the book post change over as well as the deciphering of the notes as to where the gates are show that, when he wants to, he can plan and think and beyond that he can do so on a very high level.

The scariest part is he's learned to take advantage of people underestimating his intelligence and plays up the dumb sorcerer act as much as possible.

I wouldn't necessarily say he takes advantage of that idea. I always thought he was smart and was actually bothered by that stereotype. Just curious, what gave you the idea that he took advantage of it?

[SPoD]

SOD spoilers, re; the MITD and Redcloak:
For those discussing Xykon's Suggestion to the MITD: remember that the spell was cast a full year and a half before the situation with Redcloak's brother. At that time, Xykon had just re-conscripted Redcloak, Right-Eye, and their entire village, and was not certain as to how he might react. By the time Redcloak kills Right-Eye, though, Xykon has observed him closely for another 18 months. He watched as Redcloak has taken all the crap that Xykon has dished out without so much as a protest, and thus has a better feel for Redcloak's limits.

Also, note that the prupose of the charm is revenge on Redcloak IF he betrays Xykon--NOT prevention of the betrayal! And since Redcloak doesn't know about it, it has no deterrent benefit. It's basically just a tiny "Gotcha!" on the off-chance that Redcloak gets uppity. The true control on him is the psychological lashing he gave him over the Right-Eye incident.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Actually it is not a "gotcha" at all. Xykon also told the Monster in the Darkness to spit out the phylactery, which serves to keep Redcloak from permanently destroying Xykon. Redcloak can't destroy the phylactery before Xykon "dies" as it would do no good, and would likely alert Xykon to the betrayal, losing the element of surprise. Plus its Redcloak's holy symbol and don't clerics need their holy symbol to cast spells? Or am I totally off on that last point?

[Prak]

Clerics need a holy symbol for turning/rebuking undead. A lot of cleric spells use it as a focus but it's not absolutely needed for spellcasting. Also, I'd be surprised if Maglubiyet's holy symbol wasn't easy enough to cobble together or beg/borrow/steal from a hobgoblin cleric, so he could, theoretically, destroy Xykon's phylactery and go obtain a new holy symbol (or the other way around). However, I have no clue as to how a diety would react to one of their own clerics destroying their holy symbol, and as much as evil uses the ends to justify the means, that one wouldn't be justifiable to an angry god.


also, I love you sig quote and might have to steal it for some future project...

[Scion_of_Darkness]

also, I love you sig quote and might have to steal it for some future project...

You have good taste. Let me know how it turns out.

[Ramien]

Regarding the MitD's role in all this:

Does anyone else think it's at all likely that, when Redcloak betrays Xykon, the Monster is going to do precisely nothing? After all, Xykon did have him 'forget that last part' when he cast his spell (which, incidentally, rules out the monster being a construct of any kind, thanks to their immunity to mind-control spells), so it's entirely probable that the Monster did, in fact, forget the implanted command in the first place.

Okay, maybe not probable. But I'd think it'd be funnny.

[Jan Mattys]

Regarding the MitD's role in all this:

Does anyone else think it's at all likely that, when Redcloak betrays Xykon, the Monster is going to do precisely nothing? After all, Xykon did have him 'forget that last part' when he cast his spell (which, incidentally, rules out the monster being a construct of any kind, thanks to their immunity to mind-control spells), so it's entirely probable that the Monster did, in fact, forget the implanted command in the first place.

Okay, maybe not probable. But I'd think it'd be funnny.

It would be funny, but it's unlikely that Xykon would make such a mistake...

[David Argall]

Regarding the MitD's role in all this:

Does anyone else think it's at all likely that, when Redcloak betrays Xykon,


Redcloak is not going to betray Xykon. Zero chance. Not going to happen. Nada.
This is mostly because he betrayed him right from the start, and still is betraying him. But Redcloak's very purpose in life is to be Xykon's slave until the gate is captured and devoted to the Dark One's power.

[Aquillion]

I wouldn't necessarily say he takes advantage of that idea. I always thought he was smart and was actually bothered by that stereotype. Just curious, what gave you the idea that he took advantage of it?I don't think Xykon even remotely cares (or ever bothers to think about) what people think of him.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Well there is that "Hey, you know what really gets under my skin? Proverbially speaking of course? A century of wizards looking down their damn noses at me." Its from Start of Darkness, page 106. He goes into a whole rant basically debunking the whole wizards are superior argument (or at least providing a very strong counterargument to it).

Edit: Forgot spoiler tags for SOD reference.

[AceOfFools]

Xykon knows Redcloak doesn't like him; he made it clear that it didn't matter how Redcloak feels about him personally, the goblin is the bitch.

He's also the smart one, whose Plan is X's plan. It's wise to let him do the planning, at least until a gate is secured, then
[spoiler]Kill the bitch before he can spring whatever contingency is part of the plan. At this point, it's not like Xykon doesn't have other goblin clerics he can promote to bearer of the Crimson Mantle.[/quote]

Granted, I'd be surprised if Xykon actually did that.

There's also something to be said for his sledgehammer approach: All evidence points to it working more often than it fails. What would a wise undead do, follow the evidence it's seen with its own eye-sockets, or disregard the evidence in favor of people who you consistently prove wrong?

[paladinofshojo]

Xykon knows Redcloak doesn't like him; he made it clear that it didn't matter how Redcloak feels about him personally, the goblin is the bitch.

He's also the smart one, whose Plan is X's plan. It's wise to let him do the planning, at least until a gate is secured, then
[spoiler]Kill the bitch before he can spring whatever contingency is part of the plan. At this point, it's not like Xykon doesn't have other goblin clerics he can promote to bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Granted, I'd be surprised if Xykon actually did that.

There's also something to be said for his sledgehammer approach: All evidence points to it working more often than it fails. What would a wise undead do, follow the evidence it's seen with its own eye-sockets, or disregard the evidence in favor of people who you consistently prove wrong?[/QUOTE]



But he needs a high level goblin cleric and so far, redcloak is the only one capable of fitting that role, that is until there is ANOTHER level 14 or higher NPC cleric worshipping the Dark One with a vendanta on everything in the world shows up:smallannoyed:

[paladinofshojo]

I also sincerely doubt that Xykon would even take destroying the entire universe as an option, "unless he was REALLY bored"

[Scion_of_Darkness]

But he needs a high level goblin cleric and so far, redcloak is the only one capable of fitting that role, that is until there is ANOTHER level 14 or higher NPC cleric worshipping the Dark One with a vendanta on everything in the world shows up:smallannoyed:

Tsukiko is actually a possible candidate for this as she is a Mystic Thurge. And another set of eyes to watch Redcloak on behalf of Xykon too. Tsukiko for instance is practially looking for a reason to replace Redcloak as payback for the whole chlorine elemental shindig.

[paladinofshojo]

Tsukiko is actually a possible candidate for this as she is a Mystic Thurge. And another set of eyes to watch Redcloak on behalf of Xykon too. Tsukiko for instance is practially looking for a reason to replace Redcloak as payback for the whole chlorine elemental shindig.

But I doubt she's in favor of the Dark One, who regards ALL humans as naturally untrustworthy creatures

[Scion_of_Darkness]

You don't need to be in the favor of the Dark One. The ritual isn't unique to the Goblin religion, its more a flaw of the gates than anything else. Any reasonably powerful divine caster can perform the divine half of the ritual.

[David Argall]

"Reasonably powerful" in this case seems to mean "Epic level" or aided by an artifact.
That kinda limits the options. Of course, Xykon might be willing to use Therkla in a pinch, or just if Redcloak got uppity.

[Querzis]

"Reasonably powerful" in this case seems to mean "Epic level" or aided by an artifact.
That kinda limits the options. Of course, Xykon might be willing to use Therkla in a pinch, or just if Redcloak got uppity.

....Therkla? So shes not only Thog half-sister, Redcloak niece and an aspect of Haley personnality but also an epic cleric?

Anyway, last time I checked its Redcloak who know how to perform the ritual not Xykon. I'm pretty sure that even if Tsukiko and Xykon could do the ritual, they dont know how.

[bue52]

But since Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge, doesn't that mean she has both Arcane and Divine powers? Sorry, not too sure about this, but would like someone to clarify please.

So can she fill in Xykon's role instead? Leading Redcloak to have no need for Xykon.

[RMS Oceanic]

But since Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge, doesn't that mean she has both Arcane and Divine powers? Sorry, not too sure about this, but would like someone to clarify please.

So can she fill in Xykon's role instead? Leading Redcloak to have no need for Xykon.

A Mystic Theruge is a prestige class that allows one to advance the spellcasting of both a divine class (like a cleric) and an arcane class (like a wizard). Tsukiko is, essentially, both a cleric and a wizard.

I'm becoming increasingly certain that she is becoming the "Luke Skywalker" of the bad guy's side - both Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine wanted to take Luke on as their apprentice and dispatch the other. Tsukiko is perfectly possible of adopting either role in the ritual, so it comes down to a question of who makes their move first. Tsukiko is probably more loyal to Xykon than Redcloak, but Redcloak's the one with the ace, i.e. he's the one that knows how to perform the ritual.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Hell, Tsukio is definitely more loyal to Xykon. She dislikes Redcloak. After all, he had a Chlorine Elemental try to kill her! From SOD I recall Xykon and Redcloak saying that you would need to be epic level to make a new gate. This was after Lyrian's gate was destroyed and Xykon was asking about the possibility of making a new gate. Xykon apparently wasn't epic level at the time, it follows that the ritual meant to use the gate doesn't require epic level characters. Also, Redcloak learned the ritual from his cloak. Whose to say it isn't a goblin specific magic item and Tsukio can use it? If Redcloak ever gets redeemed I can see him losing the cloak to Tsukio. As he no longer has the cloak he would have to go by his real name, this would explain why it was never specified in Start of Darkness.

[pjackson]

The point is, he is so powerful that it doesn't matter. At least, that is his viewpoint. Only another epic character has ever done any serious harm to him since he became a lich. This is likely to be his downfall once again. He got lucky the first time thanks to Miko the Insane.

Roy isn't epic level and he manage to destroy Xykon's body. He also wounded Xykon when fighting on the dragon (which is why Xykon asked Tsukiko to heal him).

On the other hand the vast majority of the hobgoblin army will be under 5th level. From the SRD

Fear Aura (Su): Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the lich’s level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich’s aura for 24 hours.
With Xykon's level and charisma they would only save on a natural 20.
His caster level is so high that only Redcloak would even have a chance of dispelling his spells so all he needs is one spell to stop missiles and the hobgoblin army has no chance unless Redcloak could get him to stand in the middle of an arena surrounded by slingers more than 60' away with clerics amongst them to cast magic weapon.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

There is always protection from arrows to stop missile weapons.

And wait... don't liches have Damage Reduction? Whose to say the hobgoblin army will even be able to hurt Xykon?

[RMS Oceanic]

Specifically, they have damage reduction 15/Bludgeoning and magic. A +1 hammer or even a mid-low level monk's unarmed strike should get through. But the Hobgoblins usually use swords, which will hardly make a dent...

[Aquillion]

There is always protection from arrows to stop missile weapons.

And wait... don't liches have Damage Reduction? Whose to say the hobgoblin army will even be able to hurt Xykon?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Redcloak could, if he used Greater Magic Weapon and his Extend metamagic creatively, enchant enough sling bullets to let a small army of hobgoblins one-shot Xykon, giving the lich no time to respond. This relies on catching him flat-footed, but that's the whole point (clearly nobody can get him if they don't catch him flat-footed -- he could just go ethereal and sink into the ground, if nothing else.) His trust of Redcloak is what makes him vulnerable to this.

Protection from Arrows is 10/magic. Putting aside the fact that it's a totally useless spell for a lich, because...
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
...and liches already have DR 15/magic and bludgeoning, it won't protect against our greater-magic-weaponed sling bullets anyway.

[JaxGaret]

Redcloak believes he is best serving The Dark One by serving Xykon. As soon as that changes, there goes Redcloak's reliability as Xykon's trusty right hand man.

But why would that ever change? Xykon is kicking some serious ass, a few missteps notwithstanding.

Also, Xykon is much more powerful than Redcloak, and Redcloak knows it. He's seen Xykon demonstrate his prowess in battle time and again.