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graymachine
2008-11-03, 12:19 PM
I'm putting together a character for a game I just joined. I'm starting at 18th level and, after talking with the DM, I'm planning on building a fighter. The build I'm planning on using is Human (0), Werewolf Lord (+3 LA, 6 racial HD), Fighter 9, Warshaper 5. The extra levels are coming from me buying back the +3 LA. This build is what I've roughly come up with without going over any books. Any suggestions? I'm planning on taking Leadership, with my cohort being an Artificer so I can mine him for items, to my money will effectively be doubled.

Also, as I figure it currently, I can get his Strength to 51 without any real difficulty, as seen here:

18 (base)
+4 (levels)
+10 (Werewolf Lord)
+4 (Large size)
+6 (boosting item)
+5 (tome)
+4 (Huge size from Enlarge Person/Animal)
----
51

This assumes I'm in the hybrid form.

P.S.- Also, since every time a melee build is brought up someone goes on a ToB kick, I have absolutely no interest in using any of the class out of it. I appreciate the effort, but nothing in it seems appealing to me.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-11-03, 12:24 PM
You're aware that, even with a complete LA buyback (which isn't possible...you'll always be a little behind), you've got a 20th level character here, right?

Fighter 9 + Warshaper 5 + 6 Racial HD = 20 HD.

So you're a higher level than everyone else, AND you've got a more powerful race. Something isn't right. You should drop 5 levels if the LA remains, and at least 3 levels if you can use LA buyback.

Also, the +4 Str from being size large is already included in the werewolf lord's abilities, I believe.

graymachine
2008-11-03, 12:25 PM
You're aware that, even with a complete LA buyback (which isn't possible...you'll always be a little behind), you've got a 20th level character here, right?

Fighter 9 + Warshaper 5 + 6 Racial HD = 20 HD.

So you're a higher level than everyone else, AND you've got a more powerful race. Something isn't right. You should drop 5 levels if the LA remains, and at least 3 levels if you can use LA buyback.

No, I won't have the last 2 levels of Warshaper when I start; I was simply posting the whole build from 1-20 as a matter of convenience.

lord_khaine
2008-11-03, 12:45 PM
he actualy does get the +4 str from being large as well, since the werewolf lord gives +14 str in total.

but a enlarge person spell does only give you +2 str, so the total would end up on 49 in str, though as i recall warshaper does also give some str bonus thats not countet in here?

anyway, with that obscene str score you might considder taking the imrpoved grapple feat, since you end up strong enough to hold a dragon down.

as for gear, the only real advice i think is nececary is to make sure you get a item of flight, as thats hard to live without at those lvs.

edit, also as i remember, then the last lv of warshaper is a complete waste of time, so you might considder replacing it with something else.

graymachine
2008-11-03, 04:06 PM
Opps. For some reason I was thinking the STR bonus from size was +4. That means that the bonus from Werewolf Lord is +12, not +10; The total +14 listed under the entry in the Monster Manual includes the size bonus.

Flight's a given. I wonder if it is possible to get the Warlock invocation Fell Flight in an item. Aside from that I only have plans to heavily enchant a jovar for a critting weapon, stack up some thick armor, and buff my saves. Also spend on some basics, such as deathward.

Keld Denar
2008-11-03, 04:37 PM
First off....BURN THE TOB HATER! BURN HIM WITH THE HEATHENS, THE HERETICS, AND THE UNCLEAN! (j/k) (or maybe not?)

There, now, for flight, I'd actually go with the wonderous Phoenix Cloak from MIC. It gives you a flight speed equal to your land speed, which, with WWL increase while in hybred form, IIRC.

Also, lose the odd fighter level, take 1 of barb or something for increased move and rage, you can even take the Extra Rage feat for more times/day. Or take something...doesn't matter. The odd fighter level sucks. Maybe Exotic Weapons Master if you go with the Jovar? Or a Pious Templar dip for Mettle (beast god, like Talos? in FR).

Freedom of Movement is good too, so you don't get Solid Fogged or similar. The ring is only 40,000, or +1 Freedom armor is 36,000 + base. Get an Animated Shield, and put your utility enhancements on that, a +1 Animated Death Ward Energy Immunity shield is another 36,000 + base. Get your party cleric to cast Magic Vestiments on both for a nice +8 armor bonus total. Thats significant!

Burley
2008-11-03, 04:48 PM
Why is Bull's Strength not factored in? Cause you can't cast it yourself?

Seffbasilisk
2008-11-03, 04:58 PM
I'll second the question of 'Why Not Barbarian'?

I mean, barbarians get a boost to strength, and more special abilities then a fighter (not saying much), but grab the feat 'Extend Rage' and it's Con +8 rounds of bonus to strength and all. I'd recommend 'Whirling Frenzy' rage variant.

Edit: Bull's strength is enhancement bonus, doesn't stack with +6 from item.

Iku Rex
2008-11-03, 05:33 PM
Opps. For some reason I was thinking the STR bonus from size was +4. That means that the bonus from Werewolf Lord is +12, not +10; The total +14 listed under the entry in the Monster Manual includes the size bonus.Not sure what you're doing here.

The "werewolf lord" is a dire wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm)lycanthrope with 10 fighter levels.

graymachine
2008-11-03, 07:08 PM
Not sure what you're doing here.

The "werewolf lord" is a dire wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm)lycanthrope with 10 fighter levels.

Hmm. The Werewolf Lord (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord) states that it is a natural lycanthrope presented with 10 levels of fighter, nothing about Dire Wolf, although the wolf form is similar. However, the 10 levels of fighter may have messed up my calculations; I was going by memory, so I'm going to have to break down the whole thing..

Although, reading down the "build a lycanthrope" section, I can see what you are getting at; the Dire Wolf is the base animal for the purposes of creating the lycanthrope. Hmm. I think I might have to switch to werebear to upkeep the STR & CON gain.

Brock Samson
2008-11-06, 07:27 AM
Please, do not, DO NOT, take Warshaper level 5, it truly is a complete waste, complete.

Tempest Fennac
2008-11-06, 07:33 AM
What does level 5 do, Brock?

Brock Samson
2008-11-07, 06:34 PM
Virtually nothing for him. It would allow him to change shape as a move action rather than standard. That's it. Saves do not change, base attack doesn't change, so it's just that, skill points and hit points. So not worth it. When you think a decent portion of the time you might be walking around in hybrid form already, especially once you've encountered an enemy. If you're in a dungeon you're probably not leaving hybrid until it's cleared. And since it's still a move action it's not like it's helping you get a full-attack any faster. However, being large sized means good ol' reach, take improved trip if you don't get it with the wolf-specialness and be the bane of a caster's existence (I'd also recommend Mage Slayer as then they CANNOT cast defensively, and if you get right up in their grill, i.e. right next to them, they still provoke an attack of opportunity if they try to walk further than 5 feet, so no matter what you've getting an attack of opportunity, trip them, then they simply can't cast any spells that round and you're set up for a full-attack that round).

Devils_Advocate
2008-11-08, 08:38 PM
Hmm. The Werewolf Lord (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord) states that it is a natural lycanthrope presented with 10 levels of fighter, nothing about Dire Wolf, although the wolf form is similar.

Werewolf lords can assume a hybrid form as well as an animal form. In dire wolf form, they can trip just as normal wolves do. In hybrid form, they can wield weapons or fight with their claws.

Alternate Form (Su)
A werewolf lord can assume a bipedal hybrid form or the form of a dire wolf.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)
Any humanoid or giant hit by a werewolf lordís bite attack in wolf or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy.

Trip (Ex)
A werewolf lord in dire wolf form that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+15 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the werewolf lord.
:smalltongue: It's a dire werewolf with ten Fighter levels.

Also, the alternate forms grant +14 Str and Large size; there's no breaking down of the Strength bonus into a +4 Size bonus and another +10. I don't know where you're getting that from.


Although, reading down the "build a lycanthrope" section, I can see what you are getting at; the Dire Wolf is the base animal for the purposes of creating the lycanthrope. Hmm. I think I might have to switch to werebear to upkeep the STR & CON gain.
Note also that:

- Werebears get free grapples in their animal form, while werewolves get free trips.
- Werebears are Always Lawful Good, whereas werewolves are Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil). That's a pretty big difference.
- HOLY CRAP IT'S A BEAR RUN AWAY (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleeyyr8ln8spjv?from=Main.EverythingIsWorseWith Bears)

You might want to consider replacing at least some Fighter levels with something else, like Barbarian or Psychic Warrior. (Note the expansion power, amongst others.) Fighter is only good if you plan on taking a whole bunch of especially helpful feats -- and you haven't even listed any feats! That's a pretty essential part of an effective Fighter build! Otherwise, you're better off piling on yet more buffs, in addition to what you get from shapeshifting and permanent and/or infused magic items.

Lert, A.
2008-11-08, 09:03 PM
Hey, if you want to play from 1st lvl you can, just remove the extra hp, saves, feats, and ability scores used in the example and use the remaining modifiers for your own character. The fighter levels are only a suggestion, just like how anyone who wants to play a <insert race> doesn't need to start with a level of warrior.

Keep the racial HD and traits and you are good to go.