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Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-03, 05:17 PM
What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

only1doug
2008-11-03, 05:25 PM
Bard (cure spells)

Kurald Galain
2008-11-03, 05:27 PM
What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

That isn't really the point of an UM. The point is lots 'n lots of spells per day.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-03, 05:30 PM
Sorcerer(Draconomicon has some, as do several other books) and Warmage gets a few.

Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-03, 06:02 PM
Sorcerer(Draconomicon has some, as do several other books) and Warmage gets a few.

well just to be clear the armor casting thing from the warmage/beguiler wont apply to the wizards spells ever. right?

Kurald Galain
2008-11-03, 06:06 PM
well just to be clear the armor casting thing from the warmage/beguiler wont apply to the wizards spells ever. right?

It will if you take a level in Spellthief and grab the Master Spellthief feat.

But then, you don't really need armor all that much, anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-03, 06:34 PM
Light Armor:Mithral Breastplate +1, costs 5,200 GP, weighs 15 LBS, adds 6 to your AC, ACP of -1 and gives you a max Dex of +5, as well as whatever you had to do to get rid of the ASF.
No Armor: Greater Mage Armor. Costs one 3rd level slot, gives you +6 to AC. No max Dex, no ACP, no weight. Much more worth it.

Eldariel
2008-11-03, 06:45 PM
Nar Demonbinder. It just happens to own otherwise too, putting you just one level behind a straight Wizard and getting you a superb Familiar while at it. You get stuff like Spell Resistance and the Blasphemy-line (for Ultimate Magus and the side with higher CL!). Although, to be fair, a Wizard with sufficient work can get any spells he wants.

Waspinator
2008-11-03, 06:52 PM
Just grab one of those mithril chain shirts with all of the doodads that reduce arcane spell failure to 0% if you really want armor.

Cowboy_ninja
2008-11-03, 08:21 PM
nah armor is no biggy to me.

i want to make a spell caster opptimized for metamagic. I figured a sorc/wiz ultimate magus was kinda redundant (b/c they have the same spell lists) and wanted to know if there were any more interesting combinations.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-03, 08:26 PM
Beguiler works better than Sorc due to the casting stat. Duskblade is also good, for the same reason.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-03, 08:29 PM
I would have to say Duskblade also. full BAB, good saves, high hit dice, and the ability to channel spell power into a melee weapon. They do get a lot of the same spells, but it's based off of INT anyway...

Eldariel
2008-11-03, 08:36 PM
Nar Demonbinder is easily worth it in spite of the casting stat though - you'll have a good number of non-stat related spells on the Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) side and continue to accrue more as you get the Ultimate Magus-abilities that take Wizard-spells and move them to the spontaneous side. Also, you end up with level 8 casting on Demonbinder's side and 1-to-full on Wizard-side, so you can actually compete with a straight Wizard in spellcasting department.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-03, 09:30 PM
Ultimate Magus is a bad choice for a Duskblade unless you use the adaptation section to convert it into Spontaneous/Spontaneous and enter via Duskblade 13/Nar-Demonbinder 2 and have Wands of Divine Power somewhere on yoru character sheet.

Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus is considered strong. Also, Wu-Jen/Beguiler (or Sorcerer, if you want the spell list access) is good. Dread Necromancer/Wizard, with the right tricks can get into True Necromancer. Not very powerful (as they only end up with 8th level spells on both sides), but it can be entertaining.

The most powerful entry into it is Dragonwrought Kobold Wizard 5/War Weaver 5 with Loredrake. You end up with nice metamagic, decent spells, and the War Weaver's best abilities. Stopping part-way through Ultimate Magus to pick up 4 Legacy Champion levels that advance War Weaver is also a good idea.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-03, 10:17 PM
Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens. :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-03, 10:20 PM
Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens. :smalltongue:That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

FMArthur
2008-11-03, 11:07 PM
I think it does, I just read up on Ultimate Magus and Spontaneous Divination. The make-or-break point is whether or not a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can be referred to as a "spontaneous arcane casting class". I think it does; it's a fairly descriptive phrase, which any class able to cast arcane spells spontaneously qualifies for. If it were a feat granting this ability, I'd say no, because this refers only to the class itself, but when you replace the class's features, those new features are now part of the class.

So he qualifies, and gains the full benefit of the super-spellcasting benefit because not one part of the spellcasting description states or implies that the identities of your casting classes must be mutually exclusive.

You gain the normal benefit from Arcane Spell Power.
Expanded Spell Knowledge doesn't work at all because for your spontaneous casting you are only able to cast divinations, all of which you already have access to.
Augmented Casting doesn't work either, because it refers to the benefit going to "another" class, and 'another' indicates mutually exclusive identities.

But those aren't even important, compared to the power of a 13th-level Wizard with 9th-level spells. It obviously wasn't designed with a single class in mind, but takes no preventative measures against it. Class features not working don't prevent you from qualifying for and advancing in the class.

Oh, and you don't gain the benefit of increased spellcasting progression on the 10th level, since your Wizard casting hit 20th on the 9th level of UM.



So... what do you do with those 6 extra levels?

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-03, 11:12 PM
That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

It doesn't. Char Ops has disproved that theory ever since people tried using Southern Magician to get Cleric 15 at 10th level. They disproved the Spontaneous Divinations wizard when I posted the idea over there too.

Andras
2008-11-03, 11:14 PM
what do you do with those 6 extra levels?

Go for the gold, take levels in Ur-Priest.


They disproved the Spontaneous Divinations wizard when I posted the idea over there too.

Please, explain.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-03, 11:42 PM
I'm pretty sure a Spontaneous Divination Wizard is just as much a spontaneous arcane class as a Cleric who can convert spells into Cures or Inflicts or a Druid who can spontaneously convert spells into Summons would be considered a spontaneous divine class. If you're spontaneously converting prepared spells into other spells, you're not casting them spontaneously in the same sense that a true spontaneous caster converts open spell slots into whatever spells they cast. Spontaneously converting prepared spells does not make a spontaneous casting class.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-04, 03:32 AM
That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

It relies on a highly dodgy interpretation of what the rules actually say, that runs against both grammar and common sense. I seriously doubt that any DM would let you get away with that.

Captain Six
2008-11-04, 09:05 AM
What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

If you're looking for one ask your DM if you can be a sorcerer with the Wu Jen spell list, it's a lot different but not any better than a wizards/sorcerers. Or if you want to follow RAW, be a Wu Jen and multiclass sorcerer. After all, what spells can a wizard get that a sorcerer can't?

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-04, 09:58 AM
Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens. :smalltongue:

If the party Wizard tried to pull that one on me, He'd find himself in a druidic forest suffering from a curious disease...[/Start of Darkness]

Playing it properly, Beguiler/Wizard seems to be the best bet, as it minimizes MAD. As for sorceror-only spells, there's a 5th Level Universal spell from complete mage that lets you simultaneously cast a fourth level spell and a first level spell you know.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-04, 10:25 AM
Well, I've always felt that 3.5 D&D needed a hard and fast rule that you can only cast spells that a pure-caster with as many levels as you have Hit Die could cast. There are too many abilities and creatures that break that rule, e.g. Nymph's cast as 7th level Druids but have 6 HD and there are a lot of templates that grant SLAs for spells you couldn't cast if it were based on HD.

Yeah, there's not a lot of constraints on out of control caster power in 3.5, to put it bluntly. You'd really need to apply Rule 0 to make the Spontaneously Divining Ultimate Magus not work, because it's more or less RAW but not RAI.


If the party Wizard tried to pull that one on me, He'd find himself in a druidic forest suffering from a curious disease...[/Start of Darkness]

So... the solution is becoming a lich, you say? :smalltongue:

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-04, 11:05 AM
So... the solution is becoming a lich, you say? :smalltongue:

The Wizard would then discover that he suffers from a congenital defect that allows virii to affect him even if he has become undead. No save.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-04, 03:37 PM
Go for the gold, take levels in Ur-Priest.



Please, explain.

I tried the exact same thing, and they showed me the FAQ and Sage rulings (which are very reasonable, as getting faster spell access for so little is absurdly powerful).

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-04, 05:15 PM
I tried the exact same thing, and they showed me the FAQ and Sage rulings (which are very reasonable, as getting faster spell access for so little is absurdly powerful).

Sage and FAQ have no bearing on RAW discussions.

RAW Spontaneous Divination should allow a wizard to qualify for Ultimate Magus. Whether or not you can get double caster progression is the debatable point.

RAI it's not supposed to be allowed.

Eldariel
2008-11-04, 05:34 PM
It's funny that by RAW, Wizard/Nar Demonbinder has to use Spontaneous Divination to qualify for Ultimate Magus since UM requires the ability to cast level 1 Spontaneous Spells, something Nar Demonbinder does not provide. That said, in that case I wouldn't see a problem with it as it seems against RAI not to allow Demonbinder work anyways.

Thurbane
2008-11-04, 10:58 PM
Full casting* (base) classes -

Spontaneous:
Bard* (CHA)
Beguiler (INT)
Dread Necromancer (CHA)
Duskblade* (INT)
Sorcerer (CHA)
Warmage (CHA)

Non-Spontaneous:
Wizard (INT)
Wu-jen (INT)

...did I miss any?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-04, 11:00 PM
Well, if the Bard is on there, the Duskblade would deserve a spot too, wouldn't it?

Thurbane
2008-11-04, 11:20 PM
Well, if the Bard is on there, the Duskblade would deserve a spot too, wouldn't it?
Indeed, I'll fix it now. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-11-04, 11:27 PM
Prestige Classes. Sublime Chord (Cha), Nar Demonbinder (Cha) and Beholder Mage (Int). All of them are fast progressions too, so they're much better secondaries than base classes as they get to the high level spells the prepared side does as well. Of course, they're non-trivial to qualify for, but it's worth it (all spontaneous, all have their own progression up to 9th level).

Sublime Chord requires one level of Bard, so it's two levels behind Wizard, but qualifies for Ultimate Magus by RAW without any loops to jump through. Beholder Mage is a bitch to qualify for (permanent Polymorph Any Object (made permanent by a second casting) is the simpliest way for non-Beholder characters), but it qualifies directly for UM as one side and gets really high level spells really fast. Finally, Nar Demonbinder is supereasy to qualify for, but needs Spontaneous Divination to qualify for UltimatE Magus.