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FMArthur
2008-11-03, 08:52 PM
All life is magic, and only those who observe it in themselves can know its power. - Rotary Arcana, p.1

The Revolver Mage
The Revolver Mage can be thought of as a Sorcerer who is limited to casting from a single spell school at a time and changes this spell school to a different one every time he casts. They cycle in a predefined order, arranged at the start of the day. But in exchange for this limitation, he has many more spells per day and several abilities that help him to optimally use his spells to suit the moment or to get to the right spell school when he needs it. A Revolver Mage casts from his own magical energy - much like a Sorcerer might. Unfortunately, they lack the Sorcerer's Gift, and the uneducated would say they possessed no special magical talent until they learned to be a Revolver Mage. This is not entirely accurate: all living things contain magic of some kind. It is fainter and harder to use or affect the power in normal beings, but with enough mental training, it is possible to bend the body's natural energies to one's will. This is the path of the Revolver Mage.

Natural energy is quite different from normal magic; it is arcane in type, but behaves very differently from other arcane magic. Some say that it is erratic and unpredictable; minute fluctuations change the shape and strength of the natural energy within the body on a regular basis. Yet like all things, it has a structured form and pattern; this is unique to each individual so it has historically been a very difficult magic to teach and learn. However, there are certain monasteries whose monks dedicate their entire lives to doing nothing but study the body and its workings. It is there that a person may learn to discover the patterns within and tap their magical potential. Part of the difficulty in studying natural magic is that every possible circumstance changes it to a new form, even studying it.

It is said that an ancient, knowledgeable wizard left the world of magic and spells to live the remainder of his life in a monastery to study his own mind and body; to find his soul, so to speak. When he had finally mastered the technique for finding his hidden natural energy, he was shocked to find that manipulating his natural energy caused it to take on the various forms of an energy all too familiar to him: arcane magic. He became the first Revolver Mage and, before he passed, wrote the book Rotary Arcana, which all Revolver Mages study to this day.

While most Revolver Mages come from the monastery that started it all, in recent years widespread duplication and distribution of Rotary Arcana has made a few 'self-taught' Revolver Mages begin to appear in a wide variety of places, though the book is mostly just studied by Wizards and scholars of arcana.

Making a Revolver Mage
A Revolver Mage's party role is as a caster. In combat, where turn usage matters, Revolver Mages are not well-suited to improvisation and his allies would do well not to depend on his casting the spell they desire at the right time. Parties looking to treat their Revolver Mage as a Sorcerer or Wizard will find themselves sorely disappointed in the inconsistency of a Revolver Mage. But parties adept at planning and communication will find a Revolver Mage most useful. His wide variety of spells will provide a number of useful options availible at all times, and his large quantity of spell slots means that where he can help, he doesn't need to think as much about whether he can afford to. Outside of combat, particularly when casting long-duration spells, a Revolver Mage will often wind up ahead of more traditional casters, because he can take the time to adjust to the stage of the cycle he needs at no cost.

Races
Even where humans are minorities in the world, humans make up the majority of Revolver Mages. Becoming a Revolver Mage takes an incredible amount of lengthy study time, and humans quite simply learn faster than most other races. Races learning slower than humans often give up their search for the patterns in their own natural energy and are not as good at retaining all the patterns that need memorization. Even still, it is not totally uncommon for non-human races to learn to be Revolver Mages, as nearly every race has some, but individually each non-human race is probably limited to only a handful of Revolver Mages at most.

Alignment: Because they have spent so much time studying themselves, Revolver Mages often feel detached and dispassionate toward external conflicts, or even simply curious about the seemingly alien minds of those initiating said conflicts. As a result, Revolver Mages drift toward chaos: they pay little attention to the rules of others while they go about their lives. They are also generally neutral when considering both good and evil, preferring to observe and learn than to take sides.

Game Rule Information
Abilities
Intelligence determines how powerful a spell a Revolver Mage can cast, how many spells he can cast, and how hard those spells are to resist. A high Dexterity score is helpful for a Revolver Mage, due to his inability to wear armor. Constitution is important for a Revolver Mage, as it affects Concentration checks, but more importantly it provides hit points. With a d4 per level as a hit-point growth, a Revolver Mage's total HP usually reflects his constitution score more than other classes.

Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 (100gp)
Starting Item: Rotary Arcana - this book is not required to advance in the class, but is needed to learn to become a Revolver Mage at first and provides a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Arcana).
Starting Age: as Wizard

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Int (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Profession, and Spellcraft.


The Revolver Mage Progression / Spells per Day
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|Special|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4 th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1 |+0 |+0|+0|+2 |Improved Counterspell |6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2 |+1 |+0|+0|+3 |Cycle Synchronization |7|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3 |+1 |+1|+1|+3 |Suffix Spell |8|6|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4 |+2 |+1|+1|+4 |Quick Cycle 1/day |8|7|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5 |+2 |+1|+1|+4 | |8|8|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6 |+3 |+2|+2|+5 |Back Cycle |8|8|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7 |+3 |+2|+2|+5 | |8|8|5|3|1|-|-|-|-|-
8 |+4 |+2|+2|+6 |Quick Cycle 2/day |8|8|6|4|2|-|-|-|-|-
9 |+4 |+3|+3|+6 | |8|8|7|5|3|1|-|-|-|-
10|+5 |+3|+3|+7 |Mental Burn 1/day |8|8|8|6|4|2|-|-|-|-
11|+5 |+3|+3|+7 | |8|8|8|7|5|3|1|-|-|-
12|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 |Quick Cycle 3/day |8|8|8|8|6|4|2|-|-|-
13|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 | |8|8|8|8|7|5|3|1|-|-
14|+7/+2 |+4|+4|+9 |Redirected Energy |8|8|8|8|8|6|4|2|-|-
15|+7/+2 |+5|+5|+9 | |8|8|8|8|8|7|5|3|1|-
16|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10|Quick Cycle 4/day |8|8|8|8|8|8|6|4|2|-
17|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10| |8|8|8|8|8|8|7|5|3|1
18|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11|Quick Cycle 5/day |8|8|8|8|8|8|8|6|4|2
19|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11| |8|8|8|8|8|8|8|7|5|3
20|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Quick Cycle 6/day, Mental Burn 2/day|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|6|4[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Revolver Mages are proficient with all forms of gauntlets, maces and staves, and also with light and heavy crossbows. If your campaign allows revolvers (DMG 146), they are also proficient with them. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Revolver Mage’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Revolver Mages are subject to Arcane Spell Failure chances uncurred by armor the same way Wizards and Sorcerers are.

Spells: The Revolver Mage is an Int-based spontaneous caster who casts from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Revolver Mages recieve bonus spells for having a high Intelligence score, just like a Wizard. To learn or cast a spell, the Revolver Mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Revolver Mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Revolver Mage’s Intelligence modifier. Your caster level is equal to your class level.

A Revolver Mage has something called a 'Casting Cycle' that he uses to cast spells. The Casting Cycle is a cycle of fluctuating magical patterns within a Revolver Mage that limits the spells he can cast at any given moment. Each stage of the Casting Cycle corresponds to a specific school of magic: abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, or transmutation; a Revolver Mage can only cast spells from the current school of the Casting Cycle.

The Casting Cycle advances in a fixed order set by the Revolver Mage once a day, starting with a school of his choice, until he sets it again the next day. This process takes a full hour of uninterrupted, unmoving concentration so that he can analyze the flows of energy within and adapt his casting accordingly. Each school he selects as part of the Casting Cycle must appear exactly once, and then the cycle repeats from the start. Universal spells can only be cast from the first school in your Casting Cycle. For each school that you disclude from your current day's Casting Cycle, subtract 1 from your Spells per Day for each spell level; your highest level spell slots are exempt from this unless they would end up with more spells than a lower-level slot. The Casting Cycle advances whenever the Revolver Mage casts a spell or takes a standard action to advance it.

A Revolver Mage begins first level knowing all 0th-level spells and three 1st level spells, plus a 1st level spell for each point of intelligence bonus. Each time the Revolver Mage increases in level, he learns four new spells of his choice from any level he can cast from.

Improved Counterspell (Ex): A Revolver Mage gains Improved Counterspell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCounterspell) as a bonus feat. When counterspelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell. You can only use spells from the current school in the Casting Cycle for this ability.

Cycle Synchronization(Ex): At 2nd level, a Revolver Mage becomes able to increase the effectiveness of his casting by attaining perfect synchronization with his ever-changing magical energies. With this ability, you may attempt a concentration check to boost your Intelligence score immediately before casting a spell. The DC is 10 + the spell level + desired bonus + [2 x the number of times you've succeeded on this check in the current encounter]. This magical attunement also gives you a bonus to your AC and saves equal to half of the Intelligence score bonus recieved from this ability that lasts for the rest of the round. The maximum Intelligence score bonus you can recieve from this ability is half your class level, rounded down. You may only use this ability once per round, and failing this check causes the spell to fail (and wastes the spell slot it was cast from).

Suffix Spell (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Revolver Mage can cast a second spell when using Cycle Synchronization. Before making the Concentration check for Cycle Synchronization, you may declare a single spell from the next school in your Casting Cycle with a casting time of full-round or less as a Suffix Spell and add its level to the DC of the check. If the check succeeds, you can cast the Suffix Spell immediately after the other spell as a free action. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half your Revolver Mage level, rounded down. If the check fails, the first spell fails and you lose its spell slot as normal, but you do not cast the second spell or use its spell slot and you do not expend one of your daily usages of Suffix Spell.

Quick Cycle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Revolver Mage may advance his Casting Cycle by one with a free action 1/day. This increases to 2/day at 8th level, 3/day at 12th, 4/day at 16th, 5/day at 18th, and finally 6/day at 20th level.

Back Cycle (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a Revolver Mage may take a standard action to advance his Casting Cycle backwards by one stage. The normal cycle then continues from there (it does not permanently reverse the order). You may expend one of your daily uses of Quick Cycle to change this to a free action.

Mental Burn (Su): After reaching 10th level, a Revolver Mage can totally rearrange his Casting Cycle as a free action by expending a number of spell slots whose levels add up to 8 (0th-level spell slots count as 1/2-level spell slots). He may only do this once a day until level 20, when he may do it twice a day.

Redirected Energy (Su): After reaching 14th level, a Revolver Mage gains a pool of energy points equal to half his Revolver Mage level (rounded down) that he can spend to reduce the level of a spell at the moment of casting. Each energy point spent reduces the level of the spell by one. The energy points are replenished to full after a full night's rest. This adjustment happens before metamagic is applied to a spell, if any.




Creator's Comments/Changelog
I don't know what came over me when I though of this class. I just felt like making a class today, and so I did. This time I wanted to make a full-caster class that is distinctly different from the many others. I'm not sure if I've entirely succeeded; I can't think of anything else that uses this sort of mechanic except maybe the Crusader, but I've used a lot of elements from the Sorcerer, so you might not play it that differently from one. You might consider this to be like a Sorcerer version of the Crusader, only the order of your abilities' availibility isn't random.



04/11/08
Changes:
-Changed it to a spontaneous caster. He still needs to take that full hour of concentration to change the order of his school rotation (and only once a day).
-Gave Redirected Energy and Mental Burn modifications so that, instead of just using a fixed number of spell slots, they use a number of spell slots whose levels add up to that fixed number.
-Got rid of Spell Focus and Arcane Defense, because they don't really fit the theme (thanks for pointing that out, AsuroftheStair). I'll need to come up with more things to make up for it. In the meantime, it gets Improved Counterspell at first level for free.
-Changed name from Rotary Arcanist to Revolver Mage, which is a much cooler name. (Ascension's referral to it as a 'Revolver Wizard' sounded way cooler to me than Rotary Arcanist)
-Added Cycle Synchronization to help him out a bit for his limitations.
-He now gets Redirected Energy at 14th level.
-Gains an extra Quick Cycle at 18th to fill in the gap.
-Redirected Energy now costs nothing, and is just usable a limited number of times per day.
-Finally added some fluff. This fluff, as always, can be completely discarded and rebuilt if your character concept requires its abilities but precludes its backstory.

08/11/08: I've come back to this class to take a second look, and I've come to the conclusion that it is significantly less powerful than Sorcerer and Wizard. While for most classes, I would be aiming well below those two since they're so powerful, Revolver Mage is competing directly with them for a player's selection (and as PHB classes, there is no choice but to count them as competition). But I'm not trying to make something even more powerful than they are; I just want something that is roughly equal but provides an interesting way to play.

Anyway, I don't think I've achieved this; all of his abilities so far have been about temporarily compensating for his big limitation of options. Revolver Mage's cycle may be thought of as being equivalent to a penalty; being able to merely negate or avoid that penalty a few times does not make up for its existence. He has extra spells per day, but that doesn't really help him in combat in comparison to the big two, because Wizards and Sorcerers are unlikely to run out of spells in an encounter unless there are a lot of encounters. So... he does better than them in the rare 5th and 6th daily encounters, and is outshone for the other four.

"Just shut up and tell me what you changed!" - you

Okay, okay. I gave the Revolver Mage the Suffix Spell ability, which lets him cast two spells in one turn on a number of conditions. Firstly, he may only do it a few times a day. Secondly, it has to be part of a successful Cycle Synchronization (which limits its uses per encounter), and third, its effect on the Concentration check DC for Cycle Synchronization is proportionate to its spell level.

There, now Revolver Mage can be a truly scary caster.

11/11/08: Because some important spells like Prestidigitation, Permanency, Arcane Mark, and Smite DM (Wish) are Universal only, I've made it so that you can cast Universal Spells. You can only cast them from the school you've started your Cycle with, though, so don't get any crazy Limited Wish-related ideas involving liberal dosages of Suffix Spell and Redirected Energy. Well, you can get some crazy ideas, but only about 1/8th of the time.

13/11/08: Revolver Mages no longer take as big a hit to their spells per day when discluding schools - your highest-level spell slots are not included in the subtraction unless they would end up being more numerous than those of a level below. Except at 3rd and 4th level, this means the first two schools you leave out of your cycle don't affect your highest-level slots.

As always, please tell me what you think, especially if you don't like it; I'd like to improve it where I can.

Ascension
2008-11-03, 09:16 PM
I kinda like the concept of a revolver wizard. The crunch I'm not really sure about. Balance is hardly my strong suit, but Redirected Energy seems a bit... weak. That's an awful lot of spells you'd have to burn, and lowering the level that the spell is cast as would lower its save DC as well. I'd also recommend allowing the Rotary Arcanist to spontaneously cast spells within the school-of-the-moment. The whole cycle thing seems to fit a sorcerer better than a wizard... something about the way that his natural magic flows through him forces him to cast spells in a sequence, governed by their type, but as long as he sticks to the right type of spell he can cast whatever he wants to.

FMArthur
2008-11-03, 09:33 PM
Yeah, Redirected Energy wasn't a great idea. I think the idea was initially to make metamagicking 9th level spells possible, but it is extremely costly.

And I'll definitely consider switching him over to a spontaneous caster - and renaming him to the much cooler-sounding "Revolver Wizard". :smallwink:

I believe that there was some reason for being a prepared caster, but I can't remember it at the moment. Spontaneous fits the flavor I had in mind, suits the class better... I'm beginning to think it was just because I'm too tired to build a "spells known" chart. I'll work on it tomorrow, because I can hardly think straight right now out of fatigue - expect a change tomorrow afternoon at the very latest.

AsuroftheStair
2008-11-03, 10:38 PM
I like the idea, and there are some amusing abilities. A couple of thoughts:

Spell-Focus and Arcane Defense are more suited for a specialized class, unless you make the bonuses for whatever school you currently have on your Cycle. In this case, switching Arcane Defense and Spell-Focus may be good, since Arcane Defense will not help a Revolver Wizard as universally as Spell-Focus
Burning 8 0th-level spells for Mental Burn is really tempting. Maybe change it to "8 Spell-Levels, where a 0th level spell counts as 1/2 a spell level"?
I note the lack of a familiar. It doesn't fit with this class, I know, but once this is converted from Wizard to Sorcerer mode, this class's traits will simply be trying to compensate for it's limited spellcasting order. I can think of four ability directions right now:

Making the Cycle into a physical object, then getting bonuses like the Pathfinder Wizard's Object Familiar
Having Chaos Traits from Limbo (merging spell descriptors, taking damage and skipping next turn to cast two opposite spells at once, etc)
Advanced circle spells or objects which generate spell energy, or go in cycles of a certain number of rounds (4 or 5 elements, 8 schools of magic, 2 opposing forces). This Idea could get very complicated though...
Rings are Circles, and easily represent a cycle. Magical Ring abilities could be interesting...


Good luck!

FMArthur
2008-11-04, 03:06 PM
Updated the class today. Feels a bit more complete to me; possibly just because he's now a spontaneous caster instead of a prepared caster whose theme goes with spontaneity. I never did figure out my reasoning for making it a prepared caster.



I like the idea, and there are some amusing abilities. A couple of thoughts:

Spell-Focus and Arcane Defense are more suited for a specialized class, unless you make the bonuses for whatever school you currently have on your Cycle. In this case, switching Arcane Defense and Spell-Focus may be good, since Arcane Defense will not help a Revolver Wizard as universally as Spell-Focus
Burning 8 0th-level spells for Mental Burn is really tempting. Maybe change it to "8 Spell-Levels, where a 0th level spell counts as 1/2 a spell level"?
I note the lack of a familiar. It doesn't fit with this class, I know, but once this is converted from Wizard to Sorcerer mode, this class's traits will simply be trying to compensate for it's limited spellcasting order. I can think of four ability directions right now:

Making the Cycle into a physical object, then getting bonuses like the Pathfinder Wizard's Object Familiar
Having Chaos Traits from Limbo (merging spell descriptors, taking damage and skipping next turn to cast two opposite spells at once, etc)
Advanced circle spells or objects which generate spell energy, or go in cycles of a certain number of rounds (4 or 5 elements, 8 schools of magic, 2 opposing forces). This Idea could get very complicated though...
Rings are Circles, and easily represent a cycle. Magical Ring abilities could be interesting...


Good luck!

You're right about Spell Focus and Arcane Defense - it's quite silly for a dedicated generalist to do some half-assed specialization. And I added your suggestion to mental burn, since treating all spell slots as equal doesn't make sense.

I don't really want to add external entities that the player has to look after - they're neat, but I feel that it doesn't really have anything to do with the class. If the player wants to have familiars and objects as familiars, there are plenty of ways to do it.

Ascension
2008-11-04, 03:14 PM
I like it now. I like it a lot.

I'm very tempted to go find that awakened animals game thread and enter a Revolver Mage Awakened Ocelot. A CN one with CE leanings. And a penchant for fourth-wall-breaking torture.

"Don't even think about rolling your lucky d20, or I'll know."

Project Icarus
2008-11-04, 05:01 PM
I really like this class. It's very original, which is something to be said for a caster class.

Though, Redirected Energy seems pointless. I like the idea of making metamagic feats available to 9th level spells, but other than this purpose it seems like the ability isn't worth using. Maybe you could make this ability usable a certain number of times per day?

Something else I thought of while reading this was to give the Revolver Mage special qualities while "in tune" with a specific school. For instance, maybe a +1 to AC while in tune with the Abjuration school. Just something I saw as a neat way to make up for the lack of versatility.

FMArthur
2008-11-04, 07:05 PM
I thought about giving the Revolver Mage various bonuses and abilities for being in each school, but think about how complicated that would get. The player would need to keep track of a lot of bonuses that change every single round. I don't want it to get overcomplicated. Making it more difficult to play than a normal caster and his bookkeeping is not a good thing.

Yes, I like your idea for Redirected Energy. I thought that having such a large pool of spells-per-day would be useful for spending on it, but it's just not an efficient use of the spells.


Also:
I've decided to modify Cycle Synchronization to add more significant effects and to be faster in play (because making up to four concentration checks a round does not a fast game make). It's now a single roll and your desired bonus is part of it.

AsuroftheStair
2008-11-04, 07:32 PM
This is now a really fun class! Though the only thing I'd raise my eye at is the ability to completely metamagic a single spell of your highest level slot, probably people won't do that since that would completely use their energy. I'm really tempted to pull this into my next game.
Great job!

FMArthur
2008-11-04, 07:55 PM
Keep in mind that a Revolver Mage will always have two fewer spell slots of his highest level than a Sorcerer, and three fewer 9th-level spell slots at level 20. I think it's okay that you can reduce the cost of some spells by a lot and make powerful spells even moreso when you get so much less of them to use.

Anyway, I'm glad you like the class! It's good to know that people want to use it. :smallsmile:

FMArthur
2008-11-04, 11:21 PM
Summon Backstory IV!

Project Icarus
2008-11-05, 12:07 AM
I thought about giving the Revolver Mage various bonuses and abilities for being in each school, but think about how complicated that would get. The player would need to keep track of a lot of bonuses that change every single round. I don't want it to get overcomplicated. Making it more difficult to play than a normal caster and his bookkeeping is not a good thing.

Ok, I didn't realize the schools changed each round. I thought they changed once every few rounds at least.
Yeah, that would make things confusing.

FMArthur
2008-11-05, 12:43 AM
Well, technichally only if he casts a spell or takes a standard action to advance it, but with this many spells, after a certain level you'll probably be casting a spell every round.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-05, 12:48 AM
Really neat looking, but I was hoping for an Old West wizard, who enchants offensive spells and charms on his bullets.

Ascension
2008-11-05, 08:35 PM
I actually like that fluff pretty well, even though it doesn't use the phrase "Circadian rhythm"... :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2008-11-05, 09:17 PM
:sigh:
...
*Spends an hour on Wikipedia*

Sorry, that's far too scientific a term for use with D&D.



Really neat looking, but I was hoping for an Old West wizard, who enchants offensive spells and charms on his bullets.

Haha, that would be more like an Arcane Archer. I bet somebody has come up with a more specifically similar concept to what you're looking for, though. Still, just for giggles, I added revolver proficiency when I changed the name to Revolver Mage yesterday. :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2008-11-09, 12:01 AM
Updated. New ability:

Suffix Spell (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Revolver Mage can cast a second spell when using Cycle Synchronization. Before making the Concentration check for Cycle Synchronization, you may declare a single spell with a casting time of full-round or less as a Suffix Spell and add its level to the DC of the check. If the check succeeds, you can cast the Suffix Spell immediately after the other spell as a free action. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half your Revolver Mage level, rounded down. If the check fails, the first spell fails and you lose its spell slot as normal, but you do not even cast the second spell or use its spell slot and you do not expend one of your daily usages of Suffix Spell.

See the first post's changelog for my comments on the class so far (it's at the bottom).

AsuroftheStair
2008-11-10, 01:25 AM
I like the idea of it (especially if the extra spell is of the next school in the cycle), but this is extremely like Quicken Spell, out of the reach of a 3rd level character. Possibly this would be good for a higher-level?
I do see that it would be nice to have another fundamental power of the class... I'll get back to you if I think of a good ability.

FMArthur
2008-11-10, 03:09 AM
Yeah, it's like Sudden Quicken. But he needs it. Revolver Mage's abilities so far have just been about temporarily compensating for his disadvantage; rotate spell schools faster, backwards, or rearrange them on occasion. That doesn't actually provide any reward for taking on the class and its disadvantages. It's almost like taking a couple flaws without getting feats for it (hmm... note to self... run 'handicapped' campaign in future).

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-10, 03:13 AM
This thread makes me think about Persona 3. Or possibly Outlaw Star.

AsuroftheStair
2008-11-11, 12:47 AM
@FMArthur: I should have realized that when I was making the post... I can't see or think of anything to change about it, since it has great flavor and an interesting system. Maybe it's time to playtest?

Lert, A.
2008-11-11, 01:09 AM
I like the idea of having to shoot off "blanks" (a 0 level or other low level spell) once in a while to reach a school with your "magic bullet." Actually reduces the brokenness of other classes who can almost always say "I cast WIN!"

FMArthur
2008-11-11, 01:23 AM
I like the idea of having to shoot off "blanks" (a 0 level or other low level spell) once in a while to reach a school with your "magic bullet." Actually reduces the brokenness of other classes who can almost always say "I cast WIN!"

I imagine that it might also cause parties to go insane trying to rely on a caster specifically designed to be inconsistent. :smallbiggrin:

Lert, A.
2008-11-11, 03:52 PM
I imagine that it might also cause parties to go insane trying to rely on a caster specifically designed to be inconsistent. :smallbiggrin:

Some parties, perhaps.

Other parties are full of players who are tired of standing around and having the caster solo the big challenges.

DracoDei
2008-11-11, 06:17 PM
I would consider allowing them to cast Universal spells if their current cycle includes all 8 schools provided they spend 8 rounds for each round the spell would take to cast (thus going through one complete cycle, or two in the cast of Perminancy). Basically says that Universal is a blend of all types resulting in none. From core rules this gives them back: Prestidigitation (always entertaining to find good uses for although you MIGHT say that any other casting ends the effect in their case), Arcane Mark (needed for some item summoning spell I forget the name of), Perminency, Limited Wish, and Wish. All of which are interesting and/or powerful enough that it seems worth it not to completely deny them access to them, although keeping them from casting them in combat, which seems reasonable to me.


I imagine that it might also cause parties to go insane trying to rely on a caster specifically designed to be inconsistent. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Turns out the only other Universal spells by WotC were familiar buffing spells... which makes me realize these guys don't get a familiar, I would consider giving them a familiar and allowing those 4 spells under the same x8 round casting time rule as the 5 in Core.

(Straight man)Technically they are much more orderly and predictable in their casting...(/Straight man)

FMArthur
2008-11-12, 08:12 PM
All right, all right. He can cast Universal Spells but there's no reason to put a gigantic 8-round casting time. I've made it so that they can only be cast from the first school in the casting cycle, so they're still not getting around their usual restrictions, either, which I believe was the initial worry about Universals.


On giving it a familiar: there's a handy feat in Complete Arcane (p. 81, I think) called Obtain Familiar for those who think that all casters should get familiars for some reason. Revolver Mage qualifies for it naturally and the effect is, as far as I know, identical to just recieving one from another class.

DracoDei
2008-11-12, 08:35 PM
Sorry, did you feel nagged? Anyway, the only thing the x8 thing does is basically say "doesn't net a change in the cycle and you probably don't want to try it during combat". Your way works too. BTW, I can't see anyone going for leaving a school out of the cycle... nice mechanic, just not likely to come up very often. Maybe if it was 2 (three??) schools you could leave out for each set of spell slots lost... I dunno...

FMArthur
2008-11-13, 02:16 AM
You're quite right about the loss of so many spells not being worth it. Why am I providing the option if it doesn't even have a practical use?

Your solution might not work too well in practice. It would mean that there is almost no downside to discluding a single spell school, or if you've already discluded two, then the third is free, etc. You could get yourself down to four spell schools and still have the same spell slots left as a Sorcerer. Getting down to two or just one would still put you above a specialist Wizard with the Revolver Mage benefits and almost none of its limitations. :smalleek:

I think I have a viable solution that is relatively similar to the current implementation. The loss of your highest-level spells is the biggest hit, because at most places in this class you'll usually only have 1-2 of your highest-level spells. So under the current system, discluding one or two spell schools absolutely crushes your pool of highest-level spells - but your previous spell levels are always advanced enough that you can take a hit to them without forfeiting your ability to cast at that level. Meanwhile encounters are scaling according to the highest level spells you should be able to cast (relatively speaking), and problems arise.

So how about this: you lose 1 from each spell level except the highest you can cast. It's not perfect; it can result in you getting more higher-level spells than lower, which is kind of silly, but since the number of highest-level spells rarely exceeds 2 and caps at 4, I can live with that. Possible weirdness with Redirected Energy, though. Any suggestions before I change it?

And thanks for your input. Sorry if my last post made me seem a little irate (that was not the intention). I'm always glad to have help when homebrewing.

DracoDei
2008-11-13, 06:07 AM
Your solution might not work too well in practice. It would mean that there is almost no downside to discluding a single spell school, or if you've already discluded two, then the third is free, etc. You could get yourself down to four spell schools and still have the same spell slots left as a Sorcerer. Getting down to two or just one would still put you above a specialist Wizard with the Revolver Mage benefits and almost none of its limitations. :smalleek:
I meant with rounding in the OTHER direction... so 1 or 2 schools both cost you one slot of each level, omitting 3 or 4 schools from the rotation costs 2 slots each, and omiting 5 or 6 schools cost 3 slots from each level you can cast.


I think I have a viable solution that is relatively similar to the current implementation. The loss of your highest-level spells is the biggest hit, because at most places in this class you'll usually only have 1-2 of your highest-level spells. So under the current system, discluding one or two spell schools absolutely crushes your pool of highest-level spells - but your previous spell levels are always advanced enough that you can take a hit to them without forfeiting your ability to cast at that level. Meanwhile encounters are scaling according to the highest level spells you should be able to cast (relatively speaking), and problems arise.

So how about this: you lose 1 from each spell level except the highest you can cast. It's not perfect; it can result in you getting more higher-level spells than lower, which is kind of silly, but since the number of highest-level spells rarely exceeds 2 and caps at 4, I can live with that. Possible weirdness with Redirected Energy, though. Any suggestions before I change it?
That could work in conjuction with or instead of my idea. I don't really see how Redirect Energy makes it TOO weird... might mean you either have to use large amounts of it to get down to a slot you aren't using or JUST enough to get it down to your highest level slot... and maybe some prolifigate use of metamagic...


And thanks for your input. Sorry if my last post made me seem a little irate (that was not the intention). I'm always glad to have help when homebrewing.

Sure thing.

FMArthur
2008-11-13, 07:59 PM
Changed. It's not great, but it's better than it was; you lose spells from every level but your highest. When the number of any lower-level slots dips below the highest, you also lose from your highest.

CyberRebirth
2009-08-02, 02:53 PM
Oh man, this class is completely favorited my friend. I love it.

dougch
2009-08-15, 10:22 AM
so uh where and how many spells do they know at each level?

FMArthur
2009-08-19, 01:40 AM
They learn 4 new spells of any level they can cast from at each level. See the class description for details. :smallconfused:

Glyde
2009-09-07, 05:25 PM
You know... I can seriously see myself playing this. Bookmarked.


Also, I can't help but think that they need a bit more defensive focus... Maybe a light armor proficiency/battle caster thing? Just a thought - It's probably fine as is.

FMArthur
2009-09-09, 12:28 PM
You know... I can seriously see myself playing this. Bookmarked.


Also, I can't help but think that they need a bit more defensive focus... Maybe a light armor proficiency/battle caster thing? Just a thought - It's probably fine as is.

Cycle Synchronization gives you a small boost to AC and saves for the rest of the round. Obviously this isn't the solution to all of your defensive needs, but considering some of the powerful defensive spells you get as a caster from the Sorc/Wiz list, Revolver Mages aren't exactly struggling for survival. Remember that since you can advance your cycle with standard actions, you should be starting encounters with a school of your own choice.

Spellcasters are powerful, need balance, you get extra toys in this class, etc... :smallwink:

Glyde
2009-09-09, 06:51 PM
Ah yes, I was just bringing it up. Rolling one up now, starting at second level... I'll let you know how it plays.

FMArthur
2009-09-10, 01:01 PM
I'd like that very much. I've already let someone play one in a game I DMed where everyone picks some homebrew off the internet (which I would then examine) for use, so it wasn't the best empirical data. The player is very good at planning his actions well before his turn takes place, which was a godsend, because it likely has the potential for a lot of combat slowdown. Just a warning there.

Glyde
2009-09-10, 04:42 PM
So far it's all coming naturally to me. The first combat went very smoothly (Illusion>evocation>conjuration or colour spray > burning hands > grease) and I have a feeling that once it gets more complicated I'll be able to keep up. So far it's *very* fun to play. Just thinking about it makes me excited (Guess I just really really really like the concept)

Here's the character if you're curious - She got *really* good rolls, so that's pretty nice.

http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=3708

I can't remember what I'm using exactly as her current rotation, I keep it on her token in maptool. The DM is liking the concept as well, though he's already voiced to me how he thinks Cycle Synchronization could be veeeery powerful. I agree on that, but with a concept like this *something* has to boost their spells (Like a Wu Jen's elemental mastery boosting CL itself). I think he just needs to warm up to it.

FMArthur
2009-09-11, 01:23 AM
I'm really glad you're enjoying it. :smallbiggrin:

Let me know if Cycle Synchro does become a problem. It is, after all, the only class feature besides Suffix Spell that isn't just a temporary mitigation of the disadvantage imposed by a casting cycle.

And are you sure your kobold is old enough to be out adventuring? :smallwink:

edit: Do you use every school in your rotation?

Glyde
2009-09-11, 10:38 AM
Yes, I have every school in the rotation to avoid losing spells per day. Even divination (Despite the fact that all I have for it right now is identify... I guess I should stick true strike in there huh?)

Kobolds reach adulthood at... six I think it was. I didn't roll her age, I just guessed at what would be appropriate. This is admittedly the first time I've played one, and I didn't really keep track of their lore at all >_>

I think we're doing another session tonight - If those two things in particular become a problem, I'll let you know. What I observe though is that its... fairly easy to stack up something like concentration. But if you make the DCs too hard then average players wouldn't be able to make use of those abilities.

As for suffix spell, it's not too terribly clear... Do you cast it from the same school you're on, or do you cast it from the next school in the rotation?

FMArthur
2009-09-11, 12:03 PM
The next one. I was just looking at that today, too. I'll add that extra clause in.

Glyde
2009-09-11, 01:52 PM
Also, after casting the suffix spell, does your cycle go to that school from which the suffix spell was cast, or the next one? I assume the next one, since it changes every time you cast a spell. Juuust needs a bit of clarification thats all

FMArthur
2009-09-12, 02:20 AM
'Every time you cast a spell' still includes when you cast a spell through special actions, so yes, after a spell and a Suffix Spell, you'll have advanced two schools.

Glyde
2009-09-12, 09:16 AM
Alright... I think I got all this down. It'll be interesting playing a class that needs genuine planning to play rather than just build.

I'll keep you updated after she gets closer towards mid-level and gets a bigger variety to her rotation than "disable disable disable BURNNNNN"