WH40K: Dawn of War

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I saw a lot of threads about WH40K the collectable figurine game, and the MMO, but nothing about DoW, so I thought I'd start my own little thread.

My buddy got Soulstorm, and is letting me borrow it. I wasn't much on the WH40K storyline, but meh, what the heck, it's an RTS.

I started off as the Space Marines, and currently have defeated the Orks and the Tau on my home planet, and working on going after the Sisters of Battle on their planet.

Having played it for a while, I can only say: OMFG!! This is what Starcraft II *SHOULD* be! Seriously, I could see having about two or three factions of Terrans (remenants of the UED, Raynor's group, and the remenants of the Empire of Mengsk), two of Zerg (Kerrigan and those against Kerrigan), and two Protoss (Dark and Regular), setup in much the same format as the Dawn of War game, each faction having slightly different units and abilities (with some overlap, like how the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle both use Servitoirs).

I love how they do the units. You don't get just one soldier, you get a platoon of them, which can then be reinforced with more units and upgraded with leaders and special weapons. That's much more in line with what I had envisioned for a RTS game. Makes it a lot easier to keep track of all your units too.

Basically, I'm wondering about tactics. What I'm doing now works, I guess, but I'm fairly certain there are better ways of doing things out there.

I go out and get enough resources to be able to maintain my production without getting over-extended, then I turtle for a bit, up to tech 3. Once I get my Orbital Relay, I queue up two Dreadnoughts and both a Terminator squad and an Assault Terminator squad, ready to be dropped down on my command. Then I get something into their base, doesn't matter what it is. Generally, I've been able to use jump-capable troops to be a spotter so I can drop everything down. Then wreak havoc on his command center and rip the guts out of his production, then mop up as necessary.

[Thanatos 51-50]

We find infiltrating Scouts on the Cease Fire stance make for excellent Spotters.
We prefer the use of the Imperial Guard, with a very solid forward base defense, utilizing one heavily defended choke point as the sole entryway.
Then we like to sweep in from the side, bringing death and doom from a "secondary" base.

[Ganurath]

Space Marine Soulstorm Tactica:Start out getting two squads of Scouts and maximum builder units. Build a Chapel Barracks while you're getting the local points, getting the ones outside your base perimeter first, then work inward. I like to build a Plasma Generator adjacent to each Listening Post for a balanced infrastructure, and to ensure the PGs don't get in the way of unit facilities, but that's just me. Get out a squad or two of Space Marines, then start building turrets to fortify your border with half your Servitors while the other pair work on the infrastructure buildings inside the perimeter. Eventually work up the tech tree until you have the following:4 Space Marines Squads on Hold Ground Stance
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Apothecary
-2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Missile Launchers

3 Scout Squads on Hold Ground Stance
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Skull Probe
-4 Sniper Rifles

1 Squad of Terminators (Ready to launch from Chapel Barracks)
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Librarian
-Autocannon equipment, forgot the max number

1 Squad of Assault Terminators (Ready to launch from Chapel Barracks)
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Force Commander

1 Squad of Grey Knights
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Chaplain

2 Predator Tanks
-Turret Lasgun attachment

2 (Forgot name of air unit)
-Krak Bombs

1 Hellfire Dreadnought (Ready to launch from Orbital Relay)

1 Hellfire Dreadnought (100% on queue at Orbital Relay)The plan of attack is simple enough: Have the Scouts locate the enemy base, and pepper it with some light fire before the Space Marines, Grey Knights, and Predators show up. When the hostiles show up to repel the invaders, have the (air units) move in to sight for orbital drops, launching two fully reinforced Terminator squads and a pair of Hellfire Dreadnoughts behind enemy lines in a flanking manuever.However, my personal preference is to use the Eldar in a tactic that I like to call the Howling Dragon.

[Crispy Dave]

and if you ever play multiplayer watch out for those dark eldar mandrake rushes. yes the ones that use infiltration.

[Ganurath]

and if you ever play multiplayer watch out for those dark eldar mandrake rushes. yes the ones that use infiltration.To make the Mandrakes eat their shorts, I present the Howling Dragon:1. Bonesinger begins Webway Gate adjacent to Webway Assembly HQ, Webway Assembly queues a Guardian squad and three Bonesingers.
2. Guardian squad goes to fetch strategic points, Webway Gate researches the Building Cloaking Field technology, Bonesingers begins building Aspect Shrine.
3. Guardians continue to capture points in rapid succession, deliberately overextending. Bonesingers build a Listening Post, Webway Gate, and Plasma Generator at each strategic point, cloaking the secured position. Aspect Shrine has Ranger Cloaking and Ranger Squad on queue.
4. Once enough strategic points have been secured, three Bonesingers start building a Soul Shrine within the cloak range of the initial Webway Gate by the Webway Assembly, while the fourth starts building turrets at the far rear of the base, under one of the point's cloak. That Webway Gate cloaking the turrets begins researching the Building Teleport technology. The Aspect Shrine queues the Howling Banshee Aspect.
5. Upon the completion of the Soul Shrine, the Bonesingers go about building the turrets to maximum while the Listening Posts and Plasma Generators upgrade their defenses/infrastructure. The Aspect Shrine begins research of the Fire Dragon Aspect, and the Guardians have probably sacrificed themselves by now scouting out the enemy base. The Rangers should be fully reinforced by now.
6. Once the infrastructure upgrades are complete, the Aspect Shrine is to queue three squads each of Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons, ordering them to the rear of the base where the turrets were built. The Soul Shrine can now begin research on the squad upgrade technologies. If you have enough resources immediately available, the Bonesingers can start building the (Vehicle Building.)
7. Once all six squads are complete, select them all. Hit L and switch the highlighted squad in rapid succession until you've got all squads churning out their Exarch, then go back and autoreinforce each squad. If you were able to afford the (Vehicle Building) then get to work on those last infrastructure upgrades.
8. Load the fully reinforced Howling Dragon into the webway, then start powering up the tech tree until you can queue three squads of Warp Spiders, the Farseer, and Warp Spider Grenades. If there are resources to spare, start churning out Nightwing Gliders and having them scout the enemy base on Cease Fire mode, looking for an area of the base where none of their units or buildings have line of sight, due to the lack of ground access to that area. This is a Blind Spot.
9a. If you find a Blind Spot: Build Fire Prisms and have them move to the area outside the enemy base within jump range of the Blind Spot. Have a Bonesinger teleport there, build a Webway Gate, have it go in, then swap it out for a fresh Bonesinger to teleport inside the Blindspot to build a cloaked Webway Gate there before withdrawing.
10a. The Nightwings scout the position one last time before withdrawing toward the Blind Spot. The enemy pursues and either stumbles upon or around the Webway Gate, depending on if the pursuers have detectors. In either case, draw their undivided attention by emptying thirty Howling Banshees and eighteen Fire Dragons from the webway before sending the Fire Prisms in. Quickly load the Rangers and Warp Spiders into the nearest Webway Gate to get them to join the fight. From there... Well, with some well placed Warp Spider Grenades, the fight is over before the enemy knows what hit them.
9b. If there aren't any Blind Spots in the enemy base, have Fire Prisms escort a Bonesinger to a safe location outside the weakest point in the enemy defenses, where a cloaked Webway Gate will be built. Swap the Howling Dragon out of the Webway in favor of the Warp Spiders and Bonesingers.
10b. Empty the webway by the Fire Prisms and reload the Howling Dragon back into the webway. Have the Warp Prism Force jump in, tossing their grenades as quickly as possible and start tearing things up while the Bonesingers teleport in and concert to build a Webway Gate. Don't bother cloaking it, just unleash the swordwind.

[Morty]

To make the Mandrakes eat their shorts, I present the Howling Dragon:1. Bonesinger begins Webway Gate adjacent to Webway Assembly HQ, Webway Assembly queues a Guardian squad and three Bonesingers.
2. Guardian squad goes to fetch strategic points, Webway Gate researches the Building Cloaking Field technology, Bonesingers begins building Aspect Shrine.
3. Guardians continue to capture points in rapid succession, deliberately overextending. Bonesingers build a Listening Post, Webway Gate, and Plasma Generator at each strategic point, cloaking the secured position. Aspect Shrine has Ranger Cloaking and Ranger Squad on queue.
4. Once enough strategic points have been secured, three Bonesingers start building a Soul Shrine within the cloak range of the initial Webway Gate by the Webway Assembly, while the fourth starts building turrets at the far rear of the base, under one of the point's cloak. That Webway Gate cloaking the turrets begins researching the Building Teleport technology. The Aspect Shrine queues the Howling Banshee Aspect.
5. Upon the completion of the Soul Shrine, the Bonesingers go about building the turrets to maximum while the Listening Posts and Plasma Generators upgrade their defenses/infrastructure. The Aspect Shrine begins research of the Fire Dragon Aspect, and the Guardians have probably sacrificed themselves by now scouting out the enemy base. The Rangers should be fully reinforced by now.
6. Once the infrastructure upgrades are complete, the Aspect Shrine is to queue three squads each of Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons, ordering them to the rear of the base where the turrets were built. The Soul Shrine can now begin research on the squad upgrade technologies. If you have enough resources immediately available, the Bonesingers can start building the (Vehicle Building.)
7. Once all six squads are complete, select them all. Hit L and switch the highlighted squad in rapid succession until you've got all squads churning out their Exarch, then go back and autoreinforce each squad. If you were able to afford the (Vehicle Building) then get to work on those last infrastructure upgrades.
8. Load the fully reinforced Howling Dragon into the webway, then start powering up the tech tree until you can queue three squads of Warp Spiders, the Farseer, and Warp Spider Grenades. If there are resources to spare, start churning out Nightwing Gliders and having them scout the enemy base on Cease Fire mode, looking for an area of the base where none of their units or buildings have line of sight, due to the lack of ground access to that area. This is a Blind Spot.
9a. If you find a Blind Spot: Build Fire Prisms and have them move to the area outside the enemy base within jump range of the Blind Spot. Have a Bonesinger teleport there, build a Webway Gate, have it go in, then swap it out for a fresh Bonesinger to teleport inside the Blindspot to build a cloaked Webway Gate there before withdrawing.
10a. The Nightwings scout the position one last time before withdrawing toward the Blind Spot. The enemy pursues and either stumbles upon or around the Webway Gate, depending on if the pursuers have detectors. In either case, draw their undivided attention by emptying thirty Howling Banshees and eighteen Fire Dragons from the webway before sending the Fire Prisms in. Quickly load the Rangers and Warp Spiders into the nearest Webway Gate to get them to join the fight. From there... Well, with some well placed Warp Spider Grenades, the fight is over before the enemy knows what hit them.
9b. If there aren't any Blind Spots in the enemy base, have Fire Prisms escort a Bonesinger to a safe location outside the weakest point in the enemy defenses, where a cloaked Webway Gate will be built. Swap the Howling Dragon out of the Webway in favor of the Warp Spiders and Bonesingers.
10b. Empty the webway by the Fire Prisms and reload the Howling Dragon back into the webway. Have the Warp Prism Force jump in, tossing their grenades as quickly as possible and start tearing things up while the Bonesingers teleport in and concert to build a Webway Gate. Don't bother cloaking it, just unleash the swordwind.

The problem I see with this strategy is that I'm not sure if you won't run out of requisition quickly at the start.

[Ganurath]

The problem I see with this strategy is that I'm not sure if you won't run out of requisition quickly at the start.You don't reinforce the Guardians, but other than that I haven't had trouble with it momentum-wise unless I'm in a low resource skirmish.

[warty goblin]

The goblin has fun with quotes. Brace yourselves.


I saw a lot of threads about WH40K the collectable figurine game, and the MMO, but nothing about DoW, so I thought I'd start my own little thread.

Yes, they do seem to be multiplying, like unto the countless legions of the Imperial Guard. This can only be a good thing for it leads more to the Emperor's Throne and Faith. Also, chainswords.


My buddy got Soulstorm, and is letting me borrow it. I wasn't much on the WH40K storyline, but meh, what the heck, it's an RTS.
Nice buddy. You'd need a powerfist to tear my copy of Dark Crusade out of my hands.


I started off as the Space Marines, and currently have defeated the Orks and the Tau on my home planet, and working on going after the Sisters of Battle on their planet. An excellent choice, the Space Marines. The Emperor's Chosen are one of my favorite armies. I also have a weak spot for the Tau because they look sort of like Eldar, are very shooty, and don't require a Ph.D. in micromanagement from Clickfest University to play well.


Having played it for a while, I can only say: OMFG!! This is what Starcraft II *SHOULD* be! Seriously, I could see having about two or three factions of Terrans (remenants of the UED, Raynor's group, and the remenants of the Empire of Mengsk), two of Zerg (Kerrigan and those against Kerrigan), and two Protoss (Dark and Regular), setup in much the same format as the Dawn of War game, each faction having slightly different units and abilities (with some overlap, like how the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle both use Servitoirs). From the limited amount of time I've been able to spend reading about Starcraft II between watching the Dawn of War II trailer on repeat and drooling, it sounds like they might be doing something sort of like this.


I love how they do the units. You don't get just one soldier, you get a platoon of them, which can then be reinforced with more units and upgraded with leaders and special weapons. That's much more in line with what I had envisioned for a RTS game. Makes it a lot easier to keep track of all your units too. Indeed, between DoW, Battle for Middle Earth and Company of Heroes, I just can't go back to managing individual peons. Peons must come in squads. If it comes in a group of one, it had better be at least the size of a tank, and be immensely destructive to make up for the additional micro burden it adds.


Basically, I'm wondering about tactics. What I'm doing now works, I guess, but I'm fairly certain there are better ways of doing things out there. Always room for improvement.



I go out and get enough resources to be able to maintain my production without getting over-extended, then I turtle for a bit, up to tech 3. Once I get my Orbital Relay, I queue up two Dreadnoughts and both a Terminator squad and an Assault Terminator squad, ready to be dropped down on my command. Then I get something into their base, doesn't matter what it is. Generally, I've been able to use jump-capable troops to be a spotter so I can drop everything down. Then wreak havoc on his command center and rip the guts out of his production, then mop up as necessary.

Hmm, usually my Space Marine games don't go that long, since I tend to favor a very tac squad heavy approach. Usually 3-4 of them, backed up by Apothecaries and Heroes, a Grey Knights and Assault Squad for close combat cover. One or two squads with rocket launchers, the others generally with heavy bolters, although plasma weapons are useful against enemies like Guard with lots of grenade launchers or other knockdown effects. The infantry takes and holds, some back and forth but generally an advance until I roll my first Dred. After the Dred I'll try to tech straight to Predators, which usually are enough to break through the enemy lines and do unkind things to their base.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Space Marine Soulstorm Tactica:Start out getting two squads of Scouts and maximum builder units. Build a Chapel Barracks while you're getting the local points, getting the ones outside your base perimeter first, then work inward. I like to build a Plasma Generator adjacent to each Listening Post for a balanced infrastructure, and to ensure the PGs don't get in the way of unit facilities, but that's just me. Get out a squad or two of Space Marines, then start building turrets to fortify your border with half your Servitors while the other pair work on the infrastructure buildings inside the perimeter. Eventually work up the tech tree until you have the following:4 Space Marines Squads on Hold Ground Stance
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Apothecary
-2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Missile Launchers

3 Scout Squads on Hold Ground Stance
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Skull Probe
-4 Sniper Rifles

1 Squad of Terminators (Ready to launch from Chapel Barracks)
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Librarian
-Autocannon equipment, forgot the max number

1 Squad of Assault Terminators (Ready to launch from Chapel Barracks)
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Force Commander

1 Squad of Grey Knights
-Fully Reinforced
-Attached Chaplain

2 Predator Tanks
-Turret Lasgun attachment

2 (Forgot name of air unit)
-Krak Bombs

1 Hellfire Dreadnought (Ready to launch from Orbital Relay)

1 Hellfire Dreadnought (100% on queue at Orbital Relay)The plan of attack is simple enough: Have the Scouts locate the enemy base, and pepper it with some light fire before the Space Marines, Grey Knights, and Predators show up. When the hostiles show up to repel the invaders, have the (air units) move in to sight for orbital drops, launching two fully reinforced Terminator squads and a pair of Hellfire Dreadnoughts behind enemy lines in a flanking manuever.However, my personal preference is to use the Eldar in a tactic that I like to call the Howling Dragon.

Similar in concept to what I have done, although probably a bit better in terms of damage output.

Question: Why Hellfire Dreadnaughts rather than regular ones? If you're porting them into enemy bases, they're going to be in melee combat anyways, and they do hellish damage to buildings.

[Ganurath]

Question: Why Hellfire Dreadnaughts rather than regular ones? If you're porting them into enemy bases, they're going to be in melee combat anyways, and they do hellish damage to buildings.Advantageous in the short term, but after that the Dreadnoughts need to walk to their next target, which is tedious work for the bricks on sticks. With Hellfire Dreadnoughts, they don't need to work their legs until everything in their line of sight is slag. Plus, the fewer melee forces I have, the less backfire I get when the Force Commander calls for an Orbital Bombardment.

[hamishspence]

Is the Hellfire Dreadnought the DoW equivalent of Siege Dreadnought? The one with (now) Flamestorm cannon and siege drill? (It was a Hellhound gun with limited ammo but Apocalypse rules changed it- better AP, worse range, doesn't run out.)

[Ganurath]

Is the Hellfire Dreadnought the DoW equivalent of Siege Dreadnought? The one with (now) Flamestorm cannon and siege drill? (It was a Hellhound gun with limited ammo but Apocalypse rules changed it- better AP, worse range, doesn't run out.)Hellfire Dreadnought is pure ranged whereas regular stomps or drops into melee.

[hamishspence]

ah. What are its guns? Identical or different. Flame or something else? Dark Angels had the pure-ranged Mortis pattern Dread with twin long-ranged weapons.

[warty goblin]

ah. What are its guns? Identical or different. Flame or something else? Dark Angels had the pure-ranged Mortis pattern Dread with twin long-ranged weapons.

Normal dreadnoughts start with twin powerfists with underslung heavy flamers. The right arm can be upgraded to either an assault cannon or twin-linked lascannon, depending on whether you want to kill infantry or armor.

Hellfire Dreadnoughts have a missile launcher instead of a right arm, and an assault cannon for the left. There may also be flamers, but I don't think so. This renders them completely without melee attack, but makes them quite effective at range. They also have a significantly different cost in terms of energy and requisition than a standard dread.

[hamishspence]

ah, so they have split the 40k SM dread right down the middle. Thats interesting- two categories for what is the same unit in the tabletop game.

[warty goblin]

ah, so they have split the 40k SM dread right down the middle. Thats interesting- two categories for what is the same unit in the tabletop game.

Not being intimately familiar with the tabletop mechanics in general or how they pertain to dreadnoughts in particular, I'd say more or less yes. What's nice though is that by careful build choices you can get a Space Marine walker for just about any specific need, by following the handy little chart below:

Pure Melee: Standard Dreadnought, no upgrades. Does fine against infantry, vehicles and buildings.

Combination Melee/Ranged, Anti-Infantry: Standard Dreadnought with assault cannon upgrade. Not as proficient in melee and less effective against buildings and vehicles, but can do nasty things to infantry at close and long ranges.

Combination Melee/Ranged: Anti-Armor: Standard Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon. Very poor against infantry in general, but good against buildings in a variety of settings.

Pure Ranged: Hellfire Dreadnought. The assault cannon is devastating to infantry, and the missiles can disrupt them further, which can keep power weapon equiped units from closing to melee.

Tragically the upgrades for the standard dread are exclusive, you can't do both, or double up on one of them.

[JMobius]

I wish there were some way of specifying the loadout to begin with, as calling the dreadnought weapons 'upgrades' is dubious, considering they come at the expense of a considerably more damaging melee weapon. Paying extra resources for it just adds to the pain.

[warty goblin]

I wish there were some way of specifying the loadout to begin with, as calling the dreadnought weapons 'upgrades' is dubious, considering they come at the expense of a considerably more damaging melee weapon. Paying extra resources for it just adds to the pain.

Not really, there's some pretty cool tactics you can pull using upgrades. Run the dreadnought through the front-line combat gambit for a while until it's good and beat up. Then pull it back, set it to "hold ground" and drop an assault cannon/lascannon on it (my preference is generally the assault cannon, the pred makes a better anti-armor platform), and if possible get a Servitor out there to enact some repairs. Even though it'll be doing less damage this way, it'll still be making a larger contribution longterm since a beat-up dread tends to die pretty fast on the front line in melee. Plus this way you have what amounts to an anchor point for your own line of combat, a large durable (after repairs) unit with good firepower for less cost than a Pred or landraider.

[Oslecamo]

From the limited amount of time I've been able to spend reading about Starcraft II between watching the Dawn of War II trailer on repeat and drooling, it sounds like they might be doing something sort of like this.


Heerrr, what you've been reading?

The "races" in Starcraft have been divided in subfactions with diferent objectives from the first game. The terrans are anything but united, the dark protoss have been around for ages, and Kerrigan spent half the story fighting other zergs.

Unlike DoW, however, in Starcraft just because you've got a diferent point of view from the guys of your race next door, doesn't stop you from picking up and using their weapons and equipment. Can the IG pick up the flamers of the sisters of battle or the power armor of the marines? Will dark Eldars fit their vehicles with holo fields stripen from their Eldar brothers?

The races in Starcraft also have very diferent units and abilities from each other. Not like DoW where you have the same guys again and again with 9 diferent color suits and voices.

So, please, stop with the "Starcraft is riping WH40k OMGNUB".

[Selrahc]

You'd need a powerfist to tear my copy of Dark Crusade out of my hands.

Um.. you do know that once you've installed Dark Crusade you don't need the disc to play it? I've lent my copy to anyone who was interested and I didn't think would break it.

[warty goblin]

Heerrr, what you've been reading?

The "races" in Starcraft have been divided in subfactions with diferent objectives from the first game. The terrans are anything but united, the dark protoss have been around for ages, and Kerrigan spent half the story fighting other zergs.

Unlike DoW, however, in Starcraft just because you've got a diferent point of view from the guys of your race next door, doesn't stop you from picking up and using their weapons and equipment. Can the IG pick up the flamers of the sisters of battle or the power armor of the marines? Will dark Eldars fit their vehicles with holo fields stripen from their Eldar brothers?

The races in Starcraft also have very diferent units and abilities from each other. Not like DoW where you have the same guys again and again with 9 diferent color suits and voices.

So, please, stop with the "Starcraft is riping WH40k OMGNUB".

Dude, seriously, chill. I never said Starcraft II was ripping off WH40K or anything like that. I said that what I had read, in between my fevered watching of the Dawn of War II cinematic, was that it was possibly taking a similar approach, as in somewhat branching campaign structure, meta level strategy and so on. That's at best similar, but hardly a rip-off. Lots of games do that anymore. Most of the EA LA RTSs in the last couple years, the Petroglyph games, the last two DoW expansions and even some really crummy low grade RTSs like Empire Earth 3 all have meta level strategy and, at least sometimes, the option for branching gameplay. If anything it's a genre norm by now.

On another note, it's really pretty hard to pick up weapons designed for people in power armor when you don't have the stuff. Bolters fire .75 cal shells with truly significant recoil to the point that even Space Marines only generally fire them in bursts. Ain't no way Joe Guardsmen is picking up one of them and blazing away with it in anything like a useful fashion, and that's at the low end of Space Marine weaponry. Some IG do have bolt pistols which fire considerably smaller rounds, but IIRC even these are reserved for exceptionally strong individuals. Most of the stuff that can actually be operated by people not wearing most of a light tank the Imperial Guard has handheld versions of, such as flamers, grenade launchers and plasma guns. Bolters they use in teams like heavy machine guns.

As for Power Armor, the Space Marine stuff is designed for 8 foot tall super humans, not a descriptor that applies to the average Imperial Guardsmen by any stretch of the imagination. It's also hellova expensive to make, so if you were the Imperium, who would you pay to give the stuff to, the superhuman killing machine, the bondage nun capable of killing people by belief, the dedicated Inquisitor who hunts down corruption all across the Imperium, or the bunch of ordinary guys with something of a history of changing sides?

[warty goblin]

On topic, anybody have any good Necron tactics? I can win with them more or less reliably, and feel I have a decent grasp of their economy. For some reason though I never get the sense I'm even close to understanding the way the units work together, how to use vehicles or things like that, I just sort of reactively plod my way forward, wrecking havok with deep striking Flayed Ones.

[Ganurath]

On topic, anybody have any good Necron tactics? I can win with them more or less reliably, and feel I have a decent grasp of their economy. For some reason though I never get the sense I'm even close to understanding the way the units work together, how to use vehicles or things like that, I just sort of reactively plod my way forward, wrecking havok with deep striking Flayed Ones.Yeah, those are Necrons. Their being thoughtless undead has a double meaning, if you get my drift. I think it's why I do so poorly with them; I tend to overthink and try to micro when no micro is needed.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, those are Necrons. Their being thoughtless undead has a double meaning, if you get my drift. I think it's why I do so poorly with them; I tend to overthink and try to micro when no micro is needed.

So it's not just me then. Good to know. It's not like I was losing sleep over my lack of Necron skillz though, as a faction they don't particularly interest me. I much prefer the Imperial Guard, because only there can one really do armor warfare right, by which I mean drive a Baneblade with Leman Russ escort into the enemy base while the screaming of Basilisk shells in the air plays a joyous anthem to the Emperor's victory. Now if only I could survive until I get some tanks out there...

[Thanatos 51-50]

Now if only I could survive until I get some tanks out there...

Massed lasgunfire at the mouth of a choke point - preferably backed up by heavy bolter turret doom.

[warty goblin]

Massed lasgunfire at the mouth of a choke point - preferably backed up by heavy bolter turret doom.

Indeed, and when I can nail down a chokepoint it works great, particularly supplimented with Heavy Weapons Teams. Mostly the cause of my ignoble casualty rates and poor success record is my habit of playing on very open maps...

[Ganurath]

Massed lasgunfire at the mouth of a choke point - preferably backed up by heavy bolter turret doom.Grenade Launcher Spam is my favored tactic for IG defense. Anything that can move an orc across the map faster than a jet pack has got to be doing damage.

[warty goblin]

Grenade Launcher Spam is my favored tactic for IG defense. Anything that can move an orc across the map faster than a jet pack has got to be doing damage.

"Men, soldiers, brothers of the 327th Guard, I know what you are thinking, looking over that field. You are looking at that horde of eight foot tall green monstrosities armed with axes the size of your bodies and guns shooting bullets bigger than your bayonet, howling for your blood, and you are thinking 'Emperor Save us, how can we beat that?'"

"There's no shame in this fear, the xeno filth is strong and terrible, after all if they were otherwise we'd have purged their lot out of the galaxy long ago. The only shame is giving in to that fear!"

"For we too are strong! And we shall bring the Hammer of the Emperor down on this alien scum and purge their kind from this world! They may have large axes and powerful guns, but we many, we conscripted many have the tool of the Emperor's Retribution! We have grenade launchers!"

"So you should not turn and run. Instead you should load those grenades and rain fragmenting death into the ranks of the unclean!"

[RPGuru1331]

Normal dreadnoughts start with twin powerfists with underslung heavy flamers. The right arm can be upgraded to either an assault cannon or twin-linked lascannon, depending on whether you want to kill infantry or armor.

Hellfire Dreadnoughts have a missile launcher instead of a right arm, and an assault cannon for the left. There may also be flamers, but I don't think so. This renders them completely without melee attack, but makes them quite effective at range. They also have a significantly different cost in terms of energy and requisition than a standard dread.

I should note that not having a melee attack is actually a strength, on a ranged specialist unit. It means you can't be tied up in melee, you just keep shooting. It's pretty neat.

I also don't like Guard much, but I'm best at them. Just.. so micro-heavy. EXecute tab Lightning Arc tab Fanaticism Melee Attack tab Fanaticism Fragmentation Grenade shift tab shift tab shift tab Reinforce, etc. All while keeping the frontest of the frontline Guardsmen disrupting enemy infantry with Grenade Launchers, and the back line disrupts enemy melee while they charge. It's kinda horrible for someone with low APM. Though playing Starcraft a bunch this week has really helped that low APM, so I may handle the Guard better now. Favorite is probably abusing Eldar mobility. Rangers on Cease Fire, find their armor, jump in two Falcons with Fire Dragons, down a heavy, jump out.

[Ganurath]

...I honestly can't stand not being able to micro. Every second that I'm not giving an order is action inefficiency and loss of momentum. I must be using the IG wrong if they're micro-heavy...

[RPGuru1331]

...I honestly can't stand not being able to micro. Every second that I'm not giving an order is action inefficiency and loss of momentum. I must be using the IG wrong if they're micro-heavy...

It's equally likely I am. We're talking about an army where potentially every unit on the field has special abilities to throw around though, even several vehicles. Packing and Unpacking HWTs, moving reinforcements to the front by Listening Posts or Infantry Commands, redeploying Heavy Weapons as losses are taken.. just felt so micro-heavy to me, compared to Tau, or Necrons, or pretty much anyone else (Besides Eldar).

[warty goblin]

It's equally likely I am. We're talking about an army where potentially every unit on the field has special abilities to throw around though, even several vehicles. Packing and Unpacking HWTs, moving reinforcements to the front by Listening Posts or Infantry Commands, redeploying Heavy Weapons as losses are taken.. just felt so micro-heavy to me, compared to Tau, or Necrons, or pretty much anyone else (Besides Eldar).

My objection to the heavy weapons teams isn't packing/unpacking them, that's pretty standard for an RTS unit after all. My complaint is that they look almost exactly like normal guardsmen. Sure they're not too hard to pick out when everything's going well, but when the guardsmen body parts hit the chainswords, picking an undeployed HWT out can be a right pain- and there's really no reason that two guys carrying around a whacking great cannon should look like one guy with a lasgun. Except engine limitations I suppose.

[RPGuru1331]

Engine Limitations? Laziness. This is an RTS where every individual unit has better geography then any given PC in an MMO. But I use and abuse control groups for a reason, ESPECIALLY in DoW, since you can practically control group every individual infantry unit due to the low unit caps.

[warty goblin]

Engine Limitations? Laziness. This is an RTS where every individual unit has better geography then any given PC in an MMO. But I use and abuse control groups for a reason, ESPECIALLY in DoW, since you can practically control group every individual infantry unit due to the low unit caps.

Control groups would probably help, I just have a strange yet pervasive dislike of controlling an RTS with anything but the mouse. What makes this really odd is that I use the number keys all the time in other genres of games, FPS, RPG, but not RTS.

[Oslecamo]

Dude, seriously, chill. I never said Starcraft II was ripping off WH40K or anything like that. I said that what I had read, in between my fevered watching of the Dawn of War II cinematic, was that it was possibly taking a similar approach, as in somewhat branching campaign structure, meta level strategy and so on. That's at best similar, but hardly a rip-off. Lots of games do that anymore. Most of the EA LA RTSs in the last couple years, the Petroglyph games, the last two DoW expansions and even some really crummy low grade RTSs like Empire Earth 3 all have meta level strategy and, at least sometimes, the option for branching gameplay. If anything it's a genre norm by now.

Good.



On another note, it's really pretty hard to pick up weapons designed for people in power armor when you don't have the stuff. Bolters fire .75 cal shells with truly significant recoil to the point that even Space Marines only generally fire them in bursts. Ain't no way Joe Guardsmen is picking up one of them and blazing away with it in anything like a useful fashion, and that's at the low end of Space Marine weaponry. Some IG do have bolt pistols which fire considerably smaller rounds, but IIRC even these are reserved for exceptionally strong individuals. Most of the stuff that can actually be operated by people not wearing most of a light tank the Imperial Guard has handheld versions of, such as flamers, grenade launchers and plasma guns. Bolters they use in teams like heavy machine guns.


Eerrr, you do realize in the tabletop game individual guardsmen can pick up bolters and bolt pistols all right as long as you pay the points, and they deal as much damage as the smurf ones.

In DoW, however, poor Joe guardsmen can't even use a flamer when everybody else and their mother has them.



As for Power Armor, the Space Marine stuff is designed for 8 foot tall super humans, not a descriptor that applies to the average Imperial Guardsmen by any stretch of the imagination. It's also hellova expensive to make, so if you were the Imperium, who would you pay to give the stuff to, the superhuman killing machine, the bondage nun capable of killing people by belief, the dedicated Inquisitor who hunts down corruption all across the Imperium, or the bunch of ordinary guys with something of a history of changing sides?

No. Power armor is designed for the Emperor's most fanatic raging psycopaths. Sisters of battle aren't physicall bigger, stronger or tougher than your average guardsmen, but they get power armor all right, since they are willing to burn first and ask questions later. Emperor stop Joe reasonable guardsmen from geting good armor. He may live enough to do something like "gasp" develop new tactics for the Emperium. It's no suprise that they are still using the same weapons and strategies from 10.000 years ago.

As for changing sides, last time I checked it was the Smurfs who did the big first big betrayal. In the first DoW, the smurf librarian almost leads his own chapter to destruction.


In Winter assault, it's the "ordinary guys" who must rescue the smurfs, and then guide them to the gate, because smurfs insist on going trough the most dagerous path.

In Dark Crusade, smurfs want to kill everything on the planet, IG wants to protect the human population. Ever used the IG to attack the Smurf main base? You'll see an excellent example of smurf fanatism.

In Soulstorm again, IG wants to turn the system into a productive human colony again. Smurfs and nuns want to purge everything and everyone.

Hmm, who were the guys that liked changing sides again? The ones trying to protecting their owns or the ones trying to kill everything and everyone?

For more information on the BRUTAL inefeciency of the smurfs, see the opening video of DoW. Squad of smurfs+predator+dreadnought can't take on a couple of ork mobs.

[RPGuru1331]

Well, Hellfire Dreadnoughts are anti-vehicle, so the Force Commander was clearly an idiot for deploying them against Orkish Infantry. Also, Tankbustaz do infiltrate, and do certainly /wreck/ vehicles quite quickly.

Man though,c an not stand that byzantine armor setup. Who needs 6 armor types for infantry, 3 for buildings, 4 for vehicles, then 2 or 3 different HUGE single unit armor types? I'm irritated enough keeping track of Warcraft 3's.. what 5 armor types for all units? And then absolutely no internal reference on who hits what for how hard. Hell, the in-game DPS and tooltips even claims that Marines are 'all rounders', but they can't really melee at all. They just do it less awfully then Fire Warriors.

[Oslecamo]

Well, Hellfire Dreadnoughts are anti-vehicle, so the Force Commander was clearly an idiot for deploying them against Orkish Infantry. Also, Tankbustaz do infiltrate, and do certainly /wreck/ vehicles quite quickly.

It was a a normal dreadnought, with an auto cannon and the big claw thingy.

And the tanbustaz wasn't certainly infiltrating, anyone could see him, carrying the bomb to the dread.

Oh, wait, smurfs. They only see red. This is, who told them to charge uphill when they have an heavy bolter on their squad?



Man though,c an not stand that byzantine armor setup. Who needs 6 armor types for infantry, 3 for buildings, 4 for vehicles, then 2 or 3 different HUGE single unit armor types? I'm irritated enough keeping track of Warcraft 3's.. what 5 armor types for all units? And then absolutely no internal reference on who hits what for how hard. Hell, the in-game DPS and tooltips even claims that Marines are 'all rounders', but they can't really melee at all. They just do it less awfully then Fire Warriors.

Who cares about that in DoW? Just get enough massed ranged firepower, keep spamming the reinforce buttons and you'll blow up your oponent no problem.

But I do agree the tooltips suck. Bolters aren't that good against heavy infantry as they are against infantry, and the "average" damage rarely turn out as they should.

[RPGuru1331]

Who cares about that in DoW? Just get enough massed ranged firepower, keep spamming the reinforce buttons and you'll blow up your oponent no problem.

Erm, in the sense that I could beat people in SC by just queuing up a bunch of dragoons from some Gateways with a rally point set to the front lines, sure. I mean, yeah, that works in campaign (Unless you're orky, in which case it's mass melee) but against people.. it takes pretty exacting micro. Like targetting the squads that you'll kill off fastest, which requires that you know what's what.

I want to know where they pulled those 'average damage' numbers out of. IIRC, SMurfs have a listed.. like 12-24 in melee. Average damage per hit of a knife is more like 35, and the dps is more like 9. Seriously, where does all this come from?

[warty goblin]

Good. Yes.




Eerrr, you do realize in the tabletop game individual guardsmen can pick up bolters and bolt pistols all right as long as you pay the points, and they deal as much damage as the smurf ones.
No I did not.


In DoW, however, poor Joe guardsmen can't even use a flamer when everybody else and their mother has them. Honestly always struck me as weird. Although I can't say that I'd actually use flamers as the Guard either, since their primary use is to break morale at close range, and even with flamers guard morale is gonna break first. Much better to use grenade launchers. On the other hand I've yet to a Protoss zealot get tired of being shot at and rip the gauss rifle off of a Marine's corpse.




No. Power armor is designed for the Emperor's most fanatic raging psycopaths. Sisters of battle aren't physicall bigger, stronger or tougher than your average guardsmen, but they get power armor all right, since they are willing to burn first and ask questions later. Emperor stop Joe reasonable guardsmen from geting good armor. He may live enough to do something like "gasp" develop new tactics for the Emperium. It's no suprise that they are still using the same weapons and strategies from 10.000 years ago.

That's pretty much what I said. Space Marine armor is right out because Space Marines are physically bigger than all but the largest normal humans. Sister of Battle armor could, with some chest adjustment, be used generally, but it costs a ton to make. Far better to give what you can afford to make to the people most able to use it. And really, why bother with new tactics when the existing ones work? Sure they new ones might work better, but they might not.


As for changing sides, last time I checked it was the Smurfs who did the big first big betrayal. In the first DoW, the smurf librarian almost leads his own chapter to destruction. Smurf = Ultramarines =/= Blood Ravens, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or any of the other chapter. But yes,the Horus Heresy was sort of big, it's why Space Marines have so few ships with lances on them actually, to keep them from being able to fight the Imperial Navy effectively. Units going heretic is also why the Imperial Guard is seperate from the Imperial Navy, and there's been a steady trickle of Guard units going rogue for a long time.



In Winter assault, it's the "ordinary guys" who must rescue the smurfs, and then guide them to the gate, because smurfs insist on going trough the most dagerous path. Can't say, don't own Winter Assault, wouldn't have played the campaign if I did.


In Dark Crusade, smurfs want to kill everything on the planet, IG wants to protect the human population. Ever used the IG to attack the Smurf main base? You'll see an excellent example of smurf fanatism.
Yep, the Blood Ravens do want to kill everything on the planet. By the time they show up however it is worth noting that there are no less than 5 alien factions fighting for the place. The Ravens are also running on some seriously thing ice since their primary motivation for doing so is protecting their Chapter's own tainted legacy. Interestingly they even know this- note their assault on the IG stronghold where they spare the Guard units that surrender, but not the company that betrayed the Guard defenses to the Blood Ravens.


In Soulstorm again, IG wants to turn the system into a productive human colony again. Smurfs and nuns want to purge everything and everyone. Also can't say, didn't buy Soulstorm.


Hmm, who were the guys that liked changing sides again? The ones trying to protecting their owns or the ones trying to kill everything and everyone? There's actually considerable consistancy in the Space Marine position- kill things that don't serve the Emperor. On Kronus, most of the planet was not serving the Emperor, and indeed much of it was the worst sorts of xeno and heretic. No side-changing there, just a different viewpoint than the Guard. Doesn't make them traitors.



For more information on the BRUTAL inefeciency of the smurfs, see the opening video of DoW. Squad of smurfs+predator+dreadnought can't take on a couple of ork mobs.
There were a lot of orks, and the tankbustaz were pretty clearly infiltrated when they wrecked the predator annihilator. They were also doing just fine until the Dread bit it. Also I hardly consider cinematics representative of anything but pure awesome, which is to say not actual unit capabilities.

[Teron]

Well, Hellfire Dreadnoughts are anti-vehicle, so the Force Commander was clearly an idiot for deploying them against Orkish Infantry. Also, Tankbustaz do infiltrate, and do certainly /wreck/ vehicles quite quickly.
Hellfire Dreadnoughts are definitely anti-infantry. The assault cannon is most effective against infantry, and the missile launcher's lackluster damage means disruption is its main purpose (and the whole unit's main purpose, for that matter).


Man though,c an not stand that byzantine armor setup. Who needs 6 armor types for infantry, 3 for buildings, 4 for vehicles, then 2 or 3 different HUGE single unit armor types? I'm irritated enough keeping track of Warcraft 3's.. what 5 armor types for all units? And then absolutely no internal reference on who hits what for how hard. Hell, the in-game DPS and tooltips even claims that Marines are 'all rounders', but they can't really melee at all. They just do it less awfully then Fire Warriors.
Tactical marine squads actually deal slightly more damage in melée than at range before optics upgrades or heavy weapons enter the picture. There are definitely times in the early game when they should charge into melee combat, especially against the Tau and the Imperial Guard.

Now, terminators, those are laughably weak in hand-to-hand combat considering they're packing power fists.

For my part, I'm primarily an Ork player. It's a shame that their internal balance is kind of screwy, so their shooty units are their best, but who could dislike flash gitz? I'm sure Dawn of War 2 will make them the close combat monsters they should be, at least. Now if they'd just listen to the purists and add a second gun to the "killa kan" that's clearly a deff dread, even if they just split the damage between the two... but I digress. What was my point? Oh yes.

Green iz best!

[RPGuru1331]

Tactical marine squads actually deal slightly more damage in melée than at range before optics upgrades or heavy weapons enter the picture. There are definitely times in the early game when they should charge into melee combat, especially against the Tau and the Imperial Guard.
No, against Infantry Low, Infantry Med, and Commanders, they deal more in melee. Against Infantry High, Infantry H. Med, and Infantry H. High, they deal more with bolters. And good luck getting the game to tell you what's what, within Infantry and Infantry Heavy. I did say it's a byzantine setup, did I not? Regardless, at no point does the reported number on the screen sync up with the reality of their damage (Unless, perhaps, it's DPS without accounting for Accuracy).

So the all-rounders basically aren't, after the Armory (Or, perhaps, the Monastery), I s'pose, since before then you can only have flamers.


Green iz best!

WEZ IS GUNNA STOMP ALL DEM UDDER GITZ INTAH DA GROUND

[Oslecamo]

On the other hand I've yet to a Protoss zealot get tired of being shot at and rip the gauss rifle off of a Marine's corpse.

Gauss rifles aren't designed to be able to shoot from the inside of the zealot's force field. It demands the advanced protoss technology to build weapons that don't interfere with the unit's own force field, wich is standard issue for every protoss unit from the lowly probe to the mighty archons.



That's pretty much what I said. Space Marine armor is right out because Space Marines are physically bigger than all but the largest normal humans. Sister of Battle armor could, with some chest adjustment, be used generally, but it costs a ton to make. Far better to give what you can afford to make to the people most able to use it. And really, why bother with new tactics when the existing ones work? Sure they new ones might work better, but they might not.

Untill you realize the main reason that nuns are dangerous it's because you fited them with power armor and bolters. The living saint itself is actually just wearing a relic warsuit that offers exceptional protection allowing her to float and has an uber tech sword that shoots flames(Codex information). Do the nuns actually kill someone with their faith? Or do they pick and shoot their uber weapons while protected by their uber armor?

The IG, on the other hand, has lots of capable soldiers

Also, last time I checked, the Emperium was geting his ass kicked by a race just 4000 years old, so perhaps it was time to think of a military upgrade.

This is, when you've been in constant war for the last 10.000 years, and at the cost of the Emperor knows how many lives sacrificed. I would hardly call that working tactics.




Smurf = Ultramarines =/= Blood Ravens, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or any of the other chapter. But yes,the Horus Heresy was sort of big, it's why Space Marines have so few ships with lances on them actually, to keep them from being able to fight the Imperial Navy effectively. Units going heretic is also why the Imperial Guard is seperate from the Imperial Navy, and there's been a steady trickle of Guard units going rogue for a long time.


There's also been a steady trickle of space marines going heretic since then. Whole chapters sometimes. Heck, the only chapter who doesn't have betrayals on their records is the Grey knights, and that's because they're submited to a series of deadly trials in a lonely moon of Jupiter untill only the most fanatics survive.

If there are more IG units going rogue, perhaps it's because there simply is much more IG units out there than SMs. And then there's the fact that the chapters will try to hide their own betrayals, while many loyal guardsmen are deemed as heretical for everything and anything.



Yep, the Blood Ravens do want to kill everything on the planet. By the time they show up however it is worth noting that there are no less than 5 alien factions fighting for the place. The Ravens are also running on some seriously thing ice since their primary motivation for doing so is protecting their Chapter's own tainted legacy. Interestingly they even know this- note their assault on the IG stronghold where they spare the Guard units that surrender, but not the company that betrayed the Guard defenses to the Blood Ravens.


So it's ok for the Blood Ravens to kill other humans just to protect their own dirty secrets? How is that serving the Emperium?



Also can't say, didn't buy Soulstorm.
There's actually considerable consistancy in the Space Marine position- kill things that don't serve the Emperor. On Kronus, most of the planet was not serving the Emperor, and indeed much of it was the worst sorts of xeno and heretic. No side-changing there, just a different viewpoint than the Guard. Doesn't make them traitors.

Yes, Eldars are really bad, wanting to stop the necrons and chaos and all.

Not to mention the blood thristy Tau, daring to let the humans settled on the planet living in peace. How dare they!

And then we have the IG. Doing the Emperor's work, and worst of all, threatening to find out the Blood Ravens aren't as "pure" as they claim.

Yeah, out of 6 other factions, those 3 are clearly rotten pieces of scum! The Blood Ravens had all the right to go in a killing spree instead of making alliances to wipe out the necrons, chaos and orks and then geting some kind of agreement!




There were a lot of orks, and the tankbustaz were pretty clearly infiltrated when they wrecked the predator annihilator. They were also doing just fine until the Dread bit it. Also I hardly consider cinematics representative of anything but pure awesome, which is to say not actual unit capabilities.

The predator got busted by a rockit coming from the dug in orks if I'm not mistaken. Anyway...

Preparing a neophyte-20 years and a team of priests.
Geting a dreadnought working-50 years and a rogue expedition.
Neophyte turning into a veteran space marine-100 years and a lot of manufacturers.
Veteran space marine being incarcerated into the dreadnought-200 years and a lot of servitors.
Blowing up the dreadnought into tiny bits-5 seconds and one ork.

There are some few things that the SM can do cost effeciently.

For everything else, there' the Imperial guard!

[warty goblin]

Gauss rifles aren't designed to be able to shoot from the inside of the zealot's force field. It demands the advanced protoss technology to build weapons that don't interfere with the unit's own force field, wich is standard issue for every protoss unit from the lowly probe to the mighty archons.

So stick the barrel out of the forcefield. Problem solved. Or possibly engineer in the photon guns to begin with.




Untill you realize the main reason that nuns are dangerous it's because you fited them with power armor and bolters. The living saint itself is actually just wearing a relic warsuit that offers exceptional protection allowing her to float and has an uber tech sword that shoots flames(Codex information). Do the nuns actually kill someone with their faith? Or do they pick and shoot their uber weapons while protected by their uber armor?
Actually yes they do perform miracles through faith alone. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_battle#Appearance), and here (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas#Characteristics)



The IG, on the other hand, has lots of capable soldiers
True, but also a lot of poor soldiers. Better to give the elite equipment to the elite.


Also, last time I checked, the Emperium was geting his ass kicked by a race just 4000 years old, so perhaps it was time to think of a military upgrade.
Assuming you mean the Tau, the only real ass-kicking of the Imperium they've done is to avoid being destroyed in the Damocles Gulf business. IIRC the latest codex said that they had been pushed back by the Imperium as well.


This is, when you've been in constant war for the last 10.000 years, and at the cost of the Emperor knows how many lives sacrificed. I would hardly call that working tactics.

It's a war for survival, if you are still alive your tactics work. The Imperium still exists, hence its tactics work. Really very simple.


There's also been a steady trickle of space marines going heretic since then. Whole chapters sometimes. Heck, the only chapter who doesn't have betrayals on their records is the Grey knights, and that's because they're submited to a series of deadly trials in a lonely moon of Jupiter untill only the most fanatics survive.
That does happen yes. Still doesn't mean that it doesn't make more sense to give the power armor to the superhuman killing machines.


If there are more IG units going rogue, perhaps it's because there simply is much more IG units out there than SMs. And then there's the fact that the chapters will try to hide their own betrayals, while many loyal guardsmen are deemed as heretical for everything and anything.
I meant porportionally, of course there are more Guard units than Space Marine chapters.


So it's ok for the Blood Ravens to kill other humans just to protect their own dirty secrets? How is that serving the Emperium? Because then the Blood Ravens Chapter won't get their asses purged, and so can go beat the crap out of aliens and heretics. Space Marine chapters are hard to replace, the Imperial Guard is quite easy to. Longterm the Imperium is better off with the Blood Ravens massacring a few million people tops on one or two planets, then with the few million people on those planets.


Yes, Eldars are really bad, wanting to stop the necrons and chaos and all. Didn't say bad, said alien. You are applying external morality to a system in which it doesn't apply.


Not to mention the blood thristy Tau, daring to let the humans settled on the planet living in peace. How dare they! Again, alien. Hence deserving of death.


And then we have the IG. Doing the Emperor's work, and worst of all, threatening to find out the Blood Ravens aren't as "pure" as they claim. And also completely replacible. Plus the Imperium is a galactic size bureaucracy from hell, there's going to be some conflicts of interest and mistakes made. When a lot of the people in said bureaucracy have large armies at their command, violence is going to ensue every now and again. Doesn't mean the system is fundamentally unsound.


Yeah, out of 6 other factions, those 3 are clearly rotten pieces of scum! The Blood Ravens had all the right to go in a killing spree instead of making alliances to wipe out the necrons, chaos and orks and then geting some kind of agreement!

Again with the external morality. WH40K runs by its own code, notably not 21st century Euro-American morality. Us saying what they do is wrong is about as relevant as somebody from bronze age Greece saying that a modern person is wrong for not placing honor above life and mutilating the bodies of their dead enemies. Of course WH40K doesn't make any sense when you look at it from the outside, it's not supposed to.



The predator got busted by a rockit coming from the dug in orks if I'm not mistaken. Anyway...

Preparing a neophyte-20 years and a team of priests.
Geting a dreadnought working-50 years and a rogue expedition.
Neophyte turning into a veteran space marine-100 years and a lot of manufacturers.
Veteran space marine being incarcerated into the dreadnought-200 years and a lot of servitors.
Blowing up the dreadnought into tiny bits-5 seconds and one ork.

There are some few things that the SM can do cost effeciently.

For everything else, there' the Imperial guard!
As I said, cinematic is there to look cool, not to express canon fact about the setting.

Back on topic, as Imperial Guard, is it just me or are the flamethrower tanks useless? I mean a Chimera does the infantry support thing just fine, and a basilisk is really good fire support, so I'm not sure where the Hellhound fits in, besides looking really awesome in battle.

[Oslecamo]

Because then the Blood Ravens Chapter won't get their asses purged, and so can go beat the crap out of aliens and heretics. Space Marine chapters are hard to replace, the Imperial Guard is quite easy to. Longterm the Imperium is better off with the Blood Ravens massacring a few million people tops on one or two planets, then with the few million people on those planets.


Completely false. A single spark of heresy may lead the Blood Ravens to the chaos side in no time if they're not properly purged, like the Horus heresy has shown. The inquisition exists for that exact reason. Some million people today. Some billion people tomorrow when they betray Cadia and Abaddon comes crashing inside the Imperium.

Oh, wait, killing inocents left and right. They're already on the chaos side.
Killing heretics and aliens? EVERYBODY is an heretic or alien under their eyes! Sisters of battle, IG, eldars, civilians all meat to the slaughter, untill there's no one else left to kill.



Back on topic, as Imperial Guard, is it just me or are the flamethrower tanks useless? I mean a Chimera does the infantry support thing just fine, and a basilisk is really good fire support, so I'm not sure where the Hellhound fits in, besides looking really awesome in battle.

They are good against buildings and much tougher than sentinels, therefore excellent to make an IG rush in T2, spearheading your assault of infantry with the Hellhounds, burning down infantry in the meantime.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Back on topic, as Imperial Guard, is it just me or are the flamethrower tanks useless? I mean a Chimera does the infantry support thing just fine, and a basilisk is really good fire support, so I'm not sure where the Hellhound fits in, besides looking really awesome in battle.

You can use them to fill out your Unit Cap when creating a MAssive Assault Force o' Doom. Lemun Russes and the Baneblade won't fill it out.

[Ganurath]

You can use them to fill out your Unit Cap when creating a MAssive Assault Force o' Doom. Lemun Russes and the Baneblade won't fill it out.Ah, but a Baneblade, three Basilisks, and four Sentinels will.

[warty goblin]

Ah, but a Baneblade, three Basilisks, and four Sentinels will.

Being a fan of artillery, I usually go 2 Leman Russ, 1 Baneblade, and however many Basilisks I can fit in after that, mostly because I can get the Basi out pretty rapidly and it is immensely helpful for messing with the enemy forces. Not so much vehicles, but any infantry that have set up times can be absolutely slaughtered by a well used Basilisk.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I usually go with Baneblade and Russes, filling it out with hellhounds or what-have-you, until I max my unit cap.

My armour's primary purpose is to act as a bullet sponge for the Commannd Squad, Three Guardsmen Squads and Kasrkin Squad right behind it.

[konfeta]

Completely false. A single spark of heresy may lead the Blood Ravens to the chaos side in no time if they're not properly purged, like the Horus heresy has shown. The inquisition exists for that exact reason. Some million people today. Some billion people tomorrow when they betray Cadia and Abaddon comes crashing inside the Imperium.


Blood Ravens aren't necessarily a heretic chapter. They can just as easily turn out to simply have a very, very un-Imperium-favorable past. Regardless, most BR marines live and die serving the Emperor, only a select few have access to the archives and have any real knowledge of their potentially dark past.

Horus Heresy, in part, occurred because of SM loyalty to their Primarchs. Post-Heresy, SM loyalty lies with the Emperor more than their Chapter Master. People like Gabriel Angelos demonstrated that one admirably by dealing with Isador and not siding with Chaos when he had ample opportunity to do so without any repercussions.


Oh, wait, killing inocents left and right. They're already on the chaos side.
Killing heretics and aliens? EVERYBODY is an heretic or alien under their eyes! Sisters of battle, IG, eldars, civilians all meat to the slaughter, untill there's no one else left to kill.

... And IG and SoB and the Inquisition DON'T kill everyone left and right? What universe have you been following?

Million innocents die so that billions of innocents may live. This is practicaly the Imperium's modus operandi. To accuse someone from Wh40k Imperium of turning to chaos because they kill those who are innocent is completely missing the point of what the Imperium is.

Again, I point to the SS campaign. SM ending demonstrates nothing but good results for the entire system. You cannot claim that deaths of SoB and IG, however loyal they might have been, to have been overall detrimental and heretical actions. SM's authority goes over IG. SM's authority goes, at the worst, side by side with SoB.

[RPGuru1331]

Back on topic, as Imperial Guard, is it just me or are the flamethrower tanks useless? I mean a Chimera does the infantry support thing just fine, and a basilisk is really good fire support, so I'm not sure where the Hellhound fits in, besides looking really awesome in battle.
Chimera doesn't do infantry Support that well. It does do Transport, sure, but not so much the Infantry Support. Hellhounds are pretty awesome against the Guard (Morale Damage, AoE damage), and they have some effective use against units with setup times (Not as much as a Basilisk, though). They're also more durable then a Basilisk, so if they have AV Aircraft, you're not as scared of them breaking.

One thing I /love/ doing with a Chimera is wheeling it in with 3 Techpriests though. I've got my repairers on the field, ready, and until then, they're safe, tucked in, and shooting back for pretty respectable damage, though. The unit I had trouble using was the Wartrukk (I never end up fielding MANz..) I mean, the other transport units I /know/ I'm fielding what they're for; Fire Dragons in Falcons, Fire Warriors in Devilfish (Or if you're a bastard, Kroot Hound Packs), etc.

Hey, I was thinking about this earlier. In what sense do Crisis Suits and Hammerhead gunships embody the "Killing Blow", while the Krootox/Kroot Hounds embody "Patient Hunter"?

[Brother Oni]

Hey, I was thinking about this earlier. In what sense do Crisis Suits and Hammerhead gunships embody the "Killing Blow", while the Krootox/Kroot Hounds embody "Patient Hunter"?

Killing Blow is all about mobile firepower - you've got the crisis suits which can jump in on undefended areas, blow things to buggery with choice of upgradable weapon, then jump back out when the enemy show up. The gunships, just blow things up and are reasonably mobile.

Patient Hunter is long range firepower. Move up with your long range fire warriors, decimate the defences from out of their range using stealth suit spotters, then advance up again. If the enemy decide to go after your firebase, tie them up with krootox and shoot them at range with your fire warriors again.



With regard to power armour, I don't know much about the Sisters of Battle (after my time), but the reason why the marines can use it and not the IG, is due to the marine's Black Carapace implant, which acts as both body armour and an interface system to their power armour.

[warty goblin]

Killing Blow is all about mobile firepower - you've got the crisis suits which can jump in on undefended areas, blow things to buggery with choice of upgradable weapon, then jump back out when the enemy show up. The gunships, just blow things up and are reasonably mobile.

Patient Hunter is long range firepower. Move up with your long range fire warriors, decimate the defences from out of their range using stealth suit spotters, then advance up again. If the enemy decide to go after your firebase, tie them up with krootox and shoot them at range with your fire warriors again.



With regard to power armour, I don't know much about the Sisters of Battle (after my time), but the reason why the marines can use it and not the IG, is due to the marine's Black Carapace implant, which acts as both body armour and an interface system to their power armour.

He speaks the truth about the Tau. Mont'ka is all about getting up in your enemy's face and destroying them with high powered weaponry. Kaunyon is about making them come to you through a field of devastating fire, then sicking giant dinosaur-apes on them.

On the power armor, the Sisters of Battle wear essentially the same stuff as Space Marines in terms of abilities, although obviously it's a different size. They lack the Black Carapace and so cannot directly uplink with the stuff, but can still use it, just not as well as the Space Marines.

[Oslecamo]

Horus Heresy, in part, occurred because of SM loyalty to their Primarchs. Post-Heresy, SM loyalty lies with the Emperor more than their Chapter Master. People like Gabriel Angelos demonstrated that one admirably by dealing with Isador and not siding with Chaos when he had ample opportunity to do so without any repercussions.

Sure, instead he just killed everybody on his own planet for not very clear reasons and released another massive demon in the Empirium instead of leting Isador using it's power for the greater good. Go Angelos! Some more blood for the blood god and you'll surely get promoted to daemon prince yourself! Why would he join chaos? He's already helping them as much as he can!



... And IG and SoB and the Inquisition DON'T kill everyone left and right? What universe have you been following?

Million innocents die so that billions of innocents may live. This is practicaly the Imperium's modus operandi. To accuse someone from Wh40k Imperium of turning to chaos because they kill those who are innocent is completely missing the point of what the Imperium is.


The IG is more than willing to take mutants on their ranks(something unthinkable for SM) and giving a second chance to those who failed by going in almost suicide missions. The Inquisition has been known for taking plenty of heretics among their forces, fighting chaos with chaos for very profitable results.



Again, I point to the SS campaign. SM ending demonstrates nothing but good results for the entire system. You cannot claim that deaths of SoB and IG, however loyal they might have been, to have been overall detrimental and heretical actions. SM's authority goes over IG. SM's authority goes, at the worst, side by side with SoB.

No. The inquisition overrides everyone but the Lords of Terra themselves. It was the whole reason they were created: to keep the other imperium forces in check. They're suposed to be able to boss IG and SM around as much as they like. Dan of War's Angelos defiance of the inquisitor was just for shows(and even then, the Inquisitor still was able to take control of the IG out of the hands of the BR, showing his authority was higher than that of the chapter master himself). Also, the IG also points out for a good ending and hey, a lot less people died in the end, since the IG has millions more people than the SM.

[hamishspence]

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my courts. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."
Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov

"Claims of innocence mean nothing, only serving to prove a foolish lack of caution."

But then, these are just some of the tendencies of the Imperium.

Using the weapons of Chaos against chaos is faroured only by the more radical inquisitors. They will do it, but the Puritan factions, and the Grey Knights, come down very very hard on them when they get caught.

In 40K, there is no such thing as an allied faction, only an enemy whom circumstances do not permit you to attack right now.

[Oslecamo]

In 40K, there is no such thing as an allied faction, only an enemy whom circumstances do not permit you to attack right now.

Chaos is allied with everyone but the necrons. Every kill, every feeling, every desire and every despair further fuels their gods. Victory is secondary. Spreading chaos is what truly matters to them.

After all, it doesn't matter from where the blood flows, as long as it keeps flowing.

[warty goblin]

Chaos is allied with everyone but the necrons. Every kill, every feeling, every desire and every despair further fuels their gods. Victory is secondary. Spreading chaos is what truly matters to them.

After all, it doesn't matter from where the blood flows, as long as it keeps flowing.

No, at best Chaos profits from everyone but the Necrons since their emotions fuel Chaos. Given how much time and effort Chaos spends trying to destroy the Imperium, I think a claim of alliance is dubious.

And even that they profit from all emotion is doubtful. The Tau for example don't have much of a Warp presence IIRC, so I hardly think Chaos is getting much out of them. The Emperor nearly killed the Chaos gods, and the Inquisition still destroys Chaos wherever it is found, hardly acts that benefit Chaos yet certainly done with feeling. The Eldar go to great lengths to avoid feeding Chaos at all, and work against them at every turn. Orks, well, who can tell with orks.

[Ganurath]

Orks, well, who can tell with orks.The Ork psychic gestalt is powered by the communal beliefs of orks. Orks do not believe in the Chaos gods. Ergo, the Chaos gods don't get any more from the Orks than they do the Tau or Tyranids.

[chiasaur11]

The Ork psychic gestalt is powered by the communal beliefs of orks. Orks do not believe in the Chaos gods. Ergo, the Chaos gods don't get any more from the Orks than they do the Tau or Tyranids.

Except Gork N' Mork.

[Pronounceable]

Gork an Mork ain't no runty chaos gods. Dey'd stomp dat grotz of a god Khorne, eet dat pansy Nurgle for brekfast, shoot dat talky 'Zench an smash dat weirdo Slaanesh. Cos dey's green an tough AND DEY GOT ENUF DAKKA AND CHOPPA! WAAAAUGH!

[RPGuru1331]

If belief matters, then whyw ould any human or eldar soul help them?

[chiasaur11]

Gork an Mork ain't no runty chaos gods. Dey'd stomp dat grotz of a god Khorne, eet dat pansy Nurgle for brekfast, shoot dat talky 'Zench an smash dat weirdo Slaanesh. Cos dey's green an tough AND DEY GOT ENUF DAKKA AND CHOPPA! WAAAAUGH!

Right.

My mistake.

Umm...
I didn't mean it. I was telling you what them Chaos runts were saying?

[warty goblin]

If belief matters, then whyw ould any human or eldar soul help them?

It's not belief per say, it's emotion that feeds the Chaos gods IIRC. You may or may not believe in them, that doesn't matter, so long as you feel. It's why the Eldar suppress the hell out of their emotions. Ork emotions, such as they are, I would theorize don't actually feed the Warp though, since they are tied up in the Ork psychic gestalt, and Tau don't leave a Warp signature. Even for those beings that do feed the Warp, it is resistable, see the bit where the Imperium hasn't been overrun by Chaos yet.

[Ganurath]

If belief matters, then whyw ould any human or eldar soul help them?Belief is half of it. The other half is emotion.

Khorne: Feeds on anger. Orks like fighting, they have fun with it, so no dice.
Tzeentch: Feeds on hope. The concept of hope confuses orks. Why would they hope to win if they never lose?
Nurgle: Feeds on despair. Can't despair if you never lose.
Slaanesh: Feeds on desire. If an ork wants something, it happens, that's how the ork gestalt works.

[konfeta]

Sure, instead he just killed everybody on his own planet for not very clear reasons and released another massive demon in the Empirium instead of leting Isador using it's power for the greater good. Go Angelos! Some more blood for the blood god and you'll surely get promoted to daemon prince yourself! Why would he join chaos? He's already helping them as much as he can!

... You can't be serious? Planet wide chaos cult is "not a very clear reason?" Releasing a massive demon after being tricked to do it, thinking that he was destroying the demonic artifact for good is a heretic act? Killing a power-hungry Librarian with the Inquisitor's blessings who has elected to try to master chaos - something that absolutely every single sentient being has tried utterly failed to do?

Are we even talking about the same WH40k here? Did you even pay attention to the dialogs and the actual events that transpired during the games? Angelos is a the shining poster-boy of what an ideal SM Force Commander is...


The IG is more than willing to take mutants on their ranks(something unthinkable for SM) and giving a second chance to those who failed by going in almost suicide missions. The Inquisition has been known for taking plenty of heretics among their forces, fighting chaos with chaos for very profitable results.


Yeah, you are clueless. Sorry for the personal attack, but I can't even begin to try to explain to you why you are wrong - you look like you completely misinterpreted what the Imperium is all about. You just managed to completely butcher the entire history and point of the SM, missed the point about abhuman use, and homogenized the Inquisition in 1 paragraph.

The only thing I can ask you to do is to throw out everything you know about WH40k and start over, and not bring in preconceived notions of morality and ethical laws into it - the Imperium of Man does NOT operate under the same notion of what good guys are and what good guys do as you do. Simply put, the very reasons you accuse Gabriel of being a heretic for, for example, are bog-standard good guy procedures in WH40K; it's a black-and-white situation here. That you don't see that is the reason why I say you are clueless. Ask any real fluff expert for this.

I am not telling you to accept that your morality and view of who the "real good guys" of the WH40k is wrong. I am telling you to that you need to acknowledge that by WH40k's ethics, by the Imperium's morals, Gabriel Angelos did nothing morally wrong.

You have to understand that. You cannot accuse Gabriel of serving chaos willingly because by the WH40k's universe definition of what "serving chaos" is he has done everything his power to combat it.


No. The inquisition overrides everyone but the Lords of Terra themselves. It was the whole reason they were created: to keep the other imperium forces in check. They're suposed to be able to boss IG and SM around as much as they like. Dan of War's Angelos defiance of the inquisitor was just for shows(and even then, the Inquisitor still was able to take control of the IG out of the hands of the BR, showing his authority was higher than that of the chapter master himself). Also, the IG also points out for a good ending and hey, a lot less people died in the end, since the IG has millions more people than the SM.


The Inquisition has the authority to label an SM chapter as heretic, to direct other Imperial forces against them, but not directly command them - Space Marines answer directly only to the Emperor, and by stand in, the High Lords of Terra. You are completely messing up the chain of command here - the Inquisition and the SM aren't part of the same one. That Toth took command of the IG troops and could not, by Imperium's own laws, simply do the same for the SM shows that fact...

showing his authority was higher than that of the chapter master himself

He has higher authority then the SM CM in regards to the Imperial Guard troops. He does NOT have the authority to command the Chapter Master anything.

Let me put it this way - non-SM Imperial Troops listen to SM because most of the time the listening to the SM works out for good of the Imperium. The SM don't actually hold direct authority over the Imperial Guard and operate on a separate chain of command - they work in conjunction with the Inquisition and other IG forces and are most often listened to because they get things done. The most an Inquisitor do to coerce an SM chapter into listening to him is not work with them and force the IG/IN forces to not work with them.

[Brother Oni]

Preparing a neophyte-20 years and a team of priests.
Geting a dreadnought working-50 years and a rogue expedition.
Neophyte turning into a veteran space marine-100 years and a lot of manufacturers.
Veteran space marine being incarcerated into the dreadnought-200 years and a lot of servitors.


I was under the impression that for the majority of chapters, recruitment was done during the early teens, so that physical development could be augmented by the genetic engineering process for creating marines. Once you're past puberty, you've already done most of your physical development, thus subjecting you to the process then will create a very tough human, but not a superhuman marine.

Neophyte from a scout into a marine is usually only a few years. Becoming a veteran is usually on award of the first long service head stud, done at 10 years. The trailer for DoW2 has the marine sergeant as a 2-stud veteran, indicating he's served for 20 years.

Veteran marine into a dreadnaught is dependent on longevity of the chapter's geneseed, so it varies.


Most of the time, damaged or destroyed dreadnaughts can be recovered and refurnished for a new occupant, so given that the orks probably lost the territory after all the drop pods deployed, that dreadnaught isn't a complete loss.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Right.

My mistake.

Umm...
I didn't mean it. I was telling you what them Chaos runts were saying?

Youz uz not actin very orky!
Youz iz not one o' dem wierdboyz, iz you?

(A far of cry if WAAAAAAAGH! Sounds)
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

[Airk]

An important thing to remember about the Imperium is that it is -not- a meritocracy. It's a Theology with the God Emperor at the top. It doesn't matter how good or capable you are, only how much zeal you have in serving the Emperor. And I can assure you, the Imperial Guard is sorely lacking in zeal compared to Space Marines and others. (Possibly because it's much easier to nigh-brainwash small chapters of space marines starting an early age than it is to nigh-brainwash countless millions of volunteer and conscripted guardsmen.

All humans are vulnerable to Chaos, but heavily indoctrinated people are less vulnerable. The reason that it's such a big deal when space marines change sides is because it's A) Rare and B) a big problem. An entire chapter of space marines is a couple thousand. No one would even bat an eye if that many guardsmen went to Chaos.

[Bryn]

The IG is more than willing to take mutants on their ranks(something unthinkable for SM)
Erm, not quite, I'm afraid :smallwink: Mutants ≠ abhumans, oddly enough. Ogryns and Ratlings are not mutants.

Mutants exist within the Imperium, though they are persecuted and generally only allowed to work in menial labour - often then they will be killed by non-mutant zealots. They're not allowed to fight in the Imperial Guard, except, perhaps, in extremely rare cases.

Now to throw out a whole bunch of information that may or may not be relevant...

As mentioned, there is more than one chain of command in the Imperium.

The Space Marines exist largely separately to the main power structures of the Imperium, and so they would not be able to command the Imperial Guard. If a Space Marine gave an instruction to a Guardsman, however, they would almost certainly follow it; higher-ranking officers, though, might not listen to the Marines.

The Inquisition supposedly holds authority over everyone, answering only to the Emperor (and therefore the High Lords of Terra). However, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Navigator houses and the Space Marines might be unwilling to hand over secrets, so even if they gave orders, these organisations might disobey. An excellent example of this appears in Imperial Armour IV: the Anphelion Project. The commander of the Red Scorpions force abandons the Inquisitor and his loyal Guardsmen to their fate. Sensible Inquisitors would be very careful about pulling rank.

In terms of morality, everything is evil in 40k, and the Imperium holds a darker shade of darkish grey than many. Killing innocents is widely considered necessary, especially by the Inquisition - there is a reason that Exterminatus exists, and is employed. Inquisitor Kryptman was only stopped after he burned hundreds of planets. Killing Imperial people is definitely not heresy. Things like consorting with Daemons or Aliens, ignoring, or - worse yet - speaking against the divinity of the Emperor are heresies.


Now, the Imperial Guard in particular.
The Imperial Guard is an incredibly diverse fighting force. There are very few constants regarding organisation, tactics, or equipment in the Guard. One of these is that Guardsmen are ordinary humans or abhumans, possibly augmented by bionics. Another is that they tend to act in large numbers. Otherwise, you would have a hard time comparing, for example, the Kanak Skull Takers and the Elysian Drop Troops.

With that in mind, it's impossible to say that the Imperial Guard need a tactics upgrade, because you can't say that the Imperial Guard as a whole follow any particular tactics. So far, the Imperial Guard has been generally succeeding at their role of defending the Imperium. Some planets may be lost, but other planets may be gained. The Imperium is still around.


On Space Marine Chapters and recruitment:
The first gene-seed implant must be planted before the early teens (between 10 and 13 years of age), as mentioned. Games Workshop used to have an article on their site detailing the implants. Fortunately, the details are preserved on Lexicanum, here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed). According to that, the last implants are implanted in the ages of 16-18, giving a minimum of three years and most likely longer for a Space Marine to receive all their implants.


On why the Guard do not have power armour:
Power armour is expensive, very much so. Though new armour is made, it is difficult and it is certainly not produced in the enormous volumes that would be needed to outfit the Imperial Guard. Most Space Marine chapters recover the power armour of fallen warriors along with their gene-seed, and many older style suits of armour are in use (the Space Marine plastic sprues include a 'beaky' helmet and shoulder pad). It would simply be impractical to the point of impossibility to outfit the Guard in power armour.


By the way, please correct me on inaccuracies in this post! I have been careful to check sources, such as the main 40k rulebook, the Dark Heresy rulebook, the Guard codex, and Lexicanum but a lot of this stuff is from memory so there might be bits I'm wrong on. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dragging things back on topic...

So far I took out the orks first (since they were the biggest threat on my planet), and the Tau (because I wanted that cannon) and consolidated the Karuva II for the Space Marines.

Then I went to Karuva I and took out the Imperial Guard and the Sisters of Battle (and that was one HELL of a fight too... that invincibility aura the saint had, then jumping around to the things you had to take out to remove that invincibility. I had to literally stage a two-front war, threatening either two of the statues, or a statue and their main base with deepstriking terminators and dreadnaughts).

So now I have consolidated half the planets in the system under my banner. In addition, I can make forward bases and pay less for them and can deep strike. I haven't noticed the Ork ability really working, and I really haven't seen the Tau gun actually fire, although I hope it is actually making a difference in combats where I am the aggressor.

My next target is probably going to be the Chaos Marines, which means my Grey Knights are going to be particularly useful, as they do extra against demons. I'm chosing them because the Eldar and the Necrons are pretty much squabbling over a territory between them, trading it off every other turn or so, while the Chaos Marines have pushed the Dark Eldar to their little moon and pretty much keep them there. I do not want the Chaos Marines to get that gate, I well and truely don't.

Now, I have a very significant advantage in obtaining Warp Gates than before, because I can establish a forward base, and it is cheaper than normal, which means that is a whole lot I don't have to build up before I can move out. I've also got a lot of deepstrike units already built up ready to launch. So, I figure I use the warp gate from Karuva I to go to the one right next to the Chaos Marines capital, while he is busy playing with the Dark Eldar. One jump, take over the gate, then blitz his home base, neutering the faction in two turns.

Tips? Hints? Suggestions?