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View Full Version : Wizards VS Sorcerers and the hybrid of both



bue52
2008-11-05, 04:35 AM
I've recently created a character, he is a Sorcerer that multi-classed into wizard, after reading the SOD, and Xykon's comments about Wizards as a whole, I thought I might as well try out this dangerous and possibly ineffective yet interesting character. One that combines instinct and intellect, two aspects of D&D Magic into the same character.

I'd like to see your opinion, if anyone else has tried this combination before please share your experience, oh and I heard a lot of comments of how Wizards because they can prepare their spells for any kind of situation, are superior to Sorcerers, though I think that is still debatable. Finally, I wonder what kind of role would you consider such a character? Certainly not the Logic Ninja's Batman role, that is for certain. Though please do not start posting about how much my character is going to suck big time, its just a game, and its an approach I personally find interesting, though to prevent myself from dying the moment I step into the game, I would like to see the views of those who have probably played D&D longer than me.


(I only started around July this year, thanks mostly to Oots, who poked my brain into becoming interested in this cool RPG:smallwink:)

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 04:41 AM
Your character is going to suck big time. :smallwink:

Sorry buy it's true. Ultimate Magus and Practiced Spellcaster would make it playable but without that it's a joke.

I've played wizard//sorcerer in gestalt before though.

Oh yeah, if you're dead set on doing this you might want to refluff Psion as sorcerer and go Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer. At least that gets you working off just Int.

bue52
2008-11-05, 04:45 AM
Woah the first thing I get is a big U ARE SO GONNA DIE, anyway, just wondering, how well did the wiz/soc do in gestalt? Completely died, could never reach the 2nd level? Or was it a silly, and highly gratifying experience?

turkishproverb
2008-11-05, 04:52 AM
Woah the first thing I get is a big U ARE SO GONNA DIE, anyway, just wondering, how well did the wiz/soc do in gestalt? Completely died, could never reach the 2nd level? Or was it a silly, and highly gratifying experience?

Tippy tends to overreact. As an RP opportunity its not bad, and it isn't' the MOST crippling idea in history otherwise. Just remember the Magic levels don't stack. Truth be told, I've considered it myself.

Leon
2008-11-05, 04:53 AM
Try it yourself before accepting what others judge on it, it may work for you or it may not


My opinion, your dragging the powerful spellcaster down, limiting the wild and free side with the ordered and set

Roderick_BR
2008-11-05, 05:44 AM
First of all: For most people, if you are not a straigth full caster (namely
wizard/cleric/druid) (including PrCs with full progression), you will suck, no matter what build you use. Just ignore those.

Now, my opinion is that, while it's an interesting concept, it would be a bit on the weak side, as you are just practically doubling the ammount of low level spells you can cast, since their spell lists are the same.
I do understand that you want wizard levels for your prepared, "serious" stuff, and sorcerer levels for those emergency times, like needing to do lots of blasting, but still, you get both low dice, and access to the same spell list.
Compare to a wizard/cleric, for example, where you at least get access to two different spell lists.
Just remember that you want a full arcane caster that may lack some high level spells when you need it most.
Still playable, though, if you can pull it off. As suggested in some books, losing some wizard levels to get a few sorcerer levels for some emergency casting would still be good.
Heck, since a few weeks ago, I've been dying to play a sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge, something most people will yell at my face for being underpowered, yet I think would be awesome.

goram.browncoat
2008-11-05, 05:56 AM
With ultimate magus it would be allright. I still wouldnt play it over straight wizard, but it wouldnt be all that shoot-yourself-in-the-foot bad.

Just plain old multiclassed wizardX/SorcY where X+Y=20 would be pretty horrible i think.

lord_khaine
2008-11-05, 06:15 AM
i agree with a lot of the previous posters, playing a straight wizard/sorcerer is not just shooting yourself in the foot, its trying to hack the leg off with an axe.


Oh yeah, if you're dead set on doing this you might want to refluff Psion as sorcerer and go Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer. At least that gets you working off just Int.

i think this would give you what you are actualy trying to build, if you take practiced manifester you would have about as much blasting power as a full sorcerer of you lv, and some decent defensive powers as well, leaving you to fill your wizard slots with utility spells.

Kurald Galain
2008-11-05, 06:28 AM
Note that there are numerous feats or features that either give some spontaneous casting to the wizard (e.g. Spontaneous Diviner cheese) or prepared casting to the sorcerer (e.g. Arcane Preparation feat). That might be what you're looking for.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-05, 06:31 AM
Look at it this way: You're a heroic adventurer, risking your life daily to bring evil villains to justice, defeat powerful monsters, and plunge into the darkest, scariest, most dangerous depths in the land. Throughout these adventures you've relied on those who travel with you, and they on you, to pull each other out of danger and make a fair contribution to the group's efforts to accomplish its goals in battle. Would you even consider bringing along a character as weak as the one you propose?

Ultimate Magus makes the concept at least playable, you'd be a Wizard who's a few levels behind in spellcasting in order to gain a little spontaneity and a few other minor tricks. If you build the character right you can actually end up missing only one Wizard level, but you're still divided between two spellcasting stats. Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus is a much stronger choice and even capable of filling the role of trapmonkey with Able Learner. It feels more like a cunning and manipulative type of character, rather than having a hint of instinct though.

goram.browncoat
2008-11-05, 06:32 AM
Note that there are numerous feats or features that either give some spontaneous casting to the wizard (e.g. Spontaneous Diviner cheese) or prepared casting to the sorcerer (e.g. Arcane Preparation feat). That might be what you're looking for.

Even if you are playing a sorc/wiz multiclass, spontaneous divination at wiz5 is still totally worth it :)

bue52
2008-11-05, 06:35 AM
Woah, I knew I was going to get a lot of negative comments, but this was quite unexpected, not much strong opposition, but quite a bit of constructive feedback. I thought an interesting challenge for this build would be to use the spells creatively in combat, though not too sure how well that would work.

Oslecamo
2008-11-05, 06:47 AM
Your character is going to suck big time. :smallwink:

Sorry buy it's true. Ultimate Magus and Practiced Spellcaster would make it playable but without that it's a joke.

I've played wizard//sorcerer in gestalt before though.

Oh yeah, if you're dead set on doing this you might want to refluff Psion as sorcerer and go Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer. At least that gets you working off just Int.

So let me see if I understand this:

Pure wizard: OMG THE PWRNZ LOOLLZZ NUUBB I'M INVINCIBLE EVEN IF YOU THROW ME SOMETHING TWICE MY CR!

Multiclassed wizard: AAGHHH I'M COMPLETELY USELESS NO WAY I CAN TAKE DOWN AN OPONENT OF MY CR!

Isn't there a middle ground? You're either the god of the multiverse or commoners farmers laugh at you?

Yeah, multiclassed wizard isn't the strongest build around, but it isn't a slouch either. If you choose your spells well to interact with your other classes you can get some nifty combos, and more than make your part of the job on the party.

In this case, sorceror+wizard, you'll probably want to make a gish of sort, relying in self buffs from both sides to make youself a fighting machine, or be some sort of skill monkey, with a lot of diferent utility spells.

Thurbane
2008-11-05, 06:53 AM
If you want a multiclassed Wiz/Sorc, you should really, REALLY consider the Ultimate Magus PrC - it's what it's built for...

sleepy
2008-11-05, 06:53 AM
I'll admit I cringed. A sorcerer 3/wizard 3 is in many respects the same as a third level sorcerer plus a third level wizard... which ranks in at significantly less CR than a level 6 anything. Then you get half the actions of the duo. Ouch. On top of this, your low level spell availability very seriously hampers the obvious bandaid Quicken Spell. I never play even close to optimal characters but being effectively half your level with some extra ammo and HP sounds frustrating.

The Ultimate Magus might save the day, though.

He'd definitely be fun to roleplay, I'll give you that. All craftily thought out and tricksome wizard spells, with a creative solution to any problem in his subtle bag of tricks ... until he loses his temper and starts throwing raw magic around in a barrage of ear-splitting, eye-dazzling explosions that send friend and foe diving for the ground shellshocked.

bue52
2008-11-05, 07:00 AM
Well, I like what I've heard so far, though I doubt I'll be using an even leveled multiclass, the ability to spam spells in battle, and utilize spells for non-combat encounters, was my initial idea.

By the way, I can't find ultimate Magus in the Crystal Keep SRD, may I ask for directions on which book can I find this prestige class?

Kurald Galain
2008-11-05, 07:11 AM
By the way, I can't find ultimate Magus in the Crystal Keep SRD, may I ask for directions on which book can I find this prestige class?

It's on the WOTC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-05, 07:13 AM
A Pure Wizard is indeed amazing, but a 1/2 Wizard isn't good for much at all. A Wizard who's only 1-3 levels behind on spellcasting is still decent later on, but if you're missing out on more than one level of casting in the early levels you've almost crippled yourself.

A Wizard switches from mediocre to pwnz around the time when they get 4th level spells, which should be by character level 7, 1/3 of the way through your career. If you've missed out on 3 levels of spellcasting for Mystic Theurge or somesuch, you've delayed it to level 10, no 1/2 of the way through your career. If you're alternating between Sorcerer and Wizard, you're waiting until Useless Class 6/ Wizard 7, character level 13, now 2/3 of the way through your career, levels that most characters won't even see.

On top of that, a Pure Wizard only needs Int, Con, and Dex in that order, everything else can be a dump stat (8). Multiclassing into another spellcasting stat turns a dump stat into a second or third on the list stat, making everything else that much worse. Someone who would have gone Dex 14, Con 16, Cha 8 is now more like Dex 12, Con 14, Cha 14. It may not seem like much, but in the early levels one point of AC and ranged touch attack bonus is a lot, and at every level there's a big difference between 1d4+3 and 1d4+2 HP. Then you're wasting 2 feats on Practiced Spellcaster for both classes just so the weak spells you've got aren't completely useless, delaying things like Spell Focus and metamagic feats.

Regardless of how many spells/day you've got, you'll still only be able to cast one spell/round. A Pure Wizard would probably only need to cast 1-3 spells on a given encounter anyway, unless it's a huge battle. If you divide your focus between two spellcasting classes you'll need to spend more lower level spells just to accomplish the same things that a single higher level spell from the Pure Wizard could handle. That means spending more actions and more weaker spells/day to accomplish the same thing, making a far less efficient character overall.

bue52
2008-11-05, 07:31 AM
Well, I can see the point you guys are making, though not too sure if I will be making both classes to be of an equal level, though I think my scores should be ok, sure if I was a pure caster those spells can be placed to better use but, I think its fine right now,

Here are the scores I am using
STR:9
DEX:13
CON:14
INT:18
WIS:9
CHA:16

Jack_Simth
2008-11-05, 08:30 AM
Let's see... if you want most the flavor without the comparatively crippling aspect that you'll be sorely behind on spell levels:

Method 1: Sorcerer of the Arcane Order

Sorcerer, going into Mage of the Arcane Order (needs three feats: Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Metamagic, and any other metamagic feat), so a Human (or any race, with flaws) can manage earliest entry (qualifying at 5th to take the first level at 6th).
Mage of the Arcane Order lets you get "the perfect spell" once/day (effectively - check the class description for details). Arcane Preparation (necessary for Mage of the Arcane Order, as a Sorcerer) lets you metamagic up spells in advance.
If you want to cheese it slightly, take Limited Wish as soon as possible, and use it to duplicate Psychic Reformation (under transparency) to change out your spells known for the last few levels every now and again to adapt to a situation quickly.
Do all that, and you'll have a Sorcerer that has more by-round flexibility than a pure-classed Wizard, and nearly as much by-day flexibility as a pure-classed Wizard.

Method 2: Killer Gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290914&page=1)

With Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, and Signature Spell (some Image spell - Silent Image is the most flexible for this).
This Lets you spontaneously convert a prepared spell into a Shadow Evocation/Conjouration - and at higher levels, they're more real than real, so the save doesn't matter; further, thanks to Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, the highest spell level that you can prepare is also the highest level of spell you can duplicate. Takes a full-round action to cast anything you haven't prepared, though. If you also pick up Alacritous Cogitation, you can even pick up any spell from your spell book (of a 1-round casting time or less) 1/day as a full-round spell (assuming you leave a blank spell slot open at your highest level for this). All the by-day flexibility of a Wizard, with most of the spontaneity of a Sorcerer.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-05, 09:17 AM
I'll second the Shadowcraft Mage suggestion, it really is a great build. Note that the Killer Gnome build is a bit old, the current "best" version is Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 8. Specialize in Illusion, get all three UA Illusionist variants, Illusion Mastery qualifies you for Signature Spell (PGtF): Silent Image. Take Ability Focus and Arcane Thesis for Silent Image as well, along with Metamagic School Focus: Illusion. Ban Enchantment and Evocation, and use the usual Heighten Spell + Earth Spell Silent Image with Shadow Illusion starting at character level 10, spontaneously converted from another prepared spell thanks to Signature Spell. That lets you forgo preparing offensive spells in favor of Batman-style situational spells, then just switch them to Heightened Silent Images.

At character level 10 you can convert a 5th level prepared spell into a Silent Image, Heightened to 8th level at caster level 17, for a Shadow Delayed Blast Fireball that deals 17d6 damage and still gets 80% of the effect if the successfully disbelieve it. The DC for both the Will and Reflex saves will be 18 (8th level spell) +2 (Ability Focus) +2 (Minor School Esoterica) +2 (Greater Spell Focus) +Int modifier. From level 12 on you'll get another +20% reality, with another +10-20% from Shadowcrafter, so you'll basically get a free Empower on all your Shadow Illusion damage. There's also a little no-XP Shadow Miracle trick, but good luck sneaking it past your DM. If you don't want to spend a full round action to cast, just pick up Rapid Metamagic (CM).

bue52
2008-11-05, 09:19 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, though there is one part of Arcane magic no one seems to be talking about, and that is item crafting, not too sure about everyone else, but does this multiclass affect the effectiveness of crafting items? Other than the caster level. Oh and while we're on the topic, what about familiars?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-05, 09:37 AM
Yes, it makes item crafting much harder, because your CL is lower, and you don't have access to the higher level spells. It also weakens your familiar - I don't think you get two familiars.

Eldariel
2008-11-05, 09:52 AM
So let me see if I understand this:

Pure wizard: OMG THE PWRNZ LOOLLZZ NUUBB I'M INVINCIBLE EVEN IF YOU THROW ME SOMETHING TWICE MY CR!

Multiclassed wizard: AAGHHH I'M COMPLETELY USELESS NO WAY I CAN TAKE DOWN AN OPONENT OF MY CR!

Isn't there a middle ground? You're either the god of the multiverse or commoners farmers laugh at you?

Yes, there's a middleground, but the problem is, that middleground is different for each level. If you go Wizard/Sorcerer, your Wizard-side stops advancing so you'll fall further and further behind that middleground each level you advance.

Spellcasters are so powerful because they enjoy geometrical progression: Every new level gets you higher level spells, more spells of present level and improves your old spells (through caster level and casting stat increases). Multiclassing into a class that doesn't give you the same progression means that you get none of those three. Therefore, your character advancement effectively stops (for all intents other than skills, BAB, saves and HP, which aren't a key factor for casters anyways).

Another problem is that if you're a half-caster, you're going to get compared to a straight caster (since that's the role your party expects you to fill) and you're going to fall woefully short. You can be non-broken Wizard by either banning few spells or self-regulating the amount of power you use. Multiclassing means you'll be a broken Wizard in the sense that you just won't pull your weight after a certain point (lower level spells start to lose efficiency in combat on higher levels - you'll still have utility and all that making the spells handy to have, but they won't have enough punch to pull you through CR appropriate encounters). Like, at level 10 when you encounter that Purple Worm in a cave, you'd better have Hold Monster, Int-draining spells or something similar or you're effin' dead.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-05, 09:55 AM
If a multiclass between two casters sucks depends from the campaign. Play always at the highest power level is not mandatory. Anyway, you will not be so strong in a standard D&D game.

Anyway... go Ultimate Magus. in this way you don't lose anything, and gain a lot. Your charachter concept will be saved (and this is good, I like the idea :smallsmile:)) and your power will rise.

bue52
2008-11-05, 10:05 AM
Well, I'll have to see how well I fare for now, oh and on another note, how many people out there would be willing to allow a double familiar? If you are the DM that is? If not then what would you make the person do to the supposedly "gain familiar" class feature that is in both Sorcerer and Wizard?

Optimystik
2008-11-05, 10:11 AM
It's on the WOTC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3).

*reads*

Yeah, I'm chiming in for Ultimate Magus, that should save your character. Ahh, Prestige Classes... where would we be without your delightful brokenness?

Eldariel
2008-11-05, 10:12 AM
The PHB specifically goes out of its way to mention that you can't have two, I wouldn't. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar) for reference.

EDIT: Optimystik, it's true that some PrCs are broken, but fact is that caster multiclassing would be completely undoable without them (they still lose to full casters, but at least they lose less than they would without PrCs).

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-05, 11:00 AM
No problem with familiars. There are a lot of familiar substitution alternative class features, both for wizad and sorcerer.

Maybe you like them so much that you remain without a familiar :smallsmile:
(keep one, IMO, anyway).

Keld Denar
2008-11-05, 11:46 AM
*reads*

Yeah, I'm chiming in for Ultimate Magus, that should save your character. Ahh, Prestige Classes... where would we be without your delightful brokenness?

Actually, 90% of PrCs should have been published in 1 book. That book would then be titled Complete Crap. Seriously, the only PrCs that anyone ever talks about compose only a small percentage of the ones published.

Then there are cases where base PrCs are actually weaker than taking standard classes. A Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw generally loses more from taking a PrC than not. Same with a Ranger/Scout with Swift Tracker or a Bardadin/Bardsader/Bardblade with Devoted Performer or Song of the White Raven respectively.

The only PrCs that anyone ever talks about are the ones with full casting progression, or melee oriented ones because PrCs are the only way for most fighter types to get REAL class features.

And yea, about the most powerful combo of prepared and spontaneous casting you could get would be:
Beguiler1
Wizard1
Wizard2 Practiced Spellcaster:Wizard
Wizard3
Wizard4
Wizard5
UM: Wizard
UM: Beguiler + Wizard
etc...

This results in 19/20 wizard casting at CL24, and 8th level Beguiler casting which is ok, and is primarily used to burn spell slots to apply metamagic for free to wizard spells. It packs a bit more punch than a straight wizard due to the CL bump and free metamagic without stepping too far into the Incantrix broken territory.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-05, 12:44 PM
The PHB specifically goes out of its way to mention that you can't have two, I wouldn't. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar) for reference.


Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.
You can use your familiar without problems, but it doesn't count for PrCs, unless it especifies it, like this PrC that lets you advance both familar and animal companion levels (don't remember the name). For that, you could get the Familar feat (complete adventurer or arcane, don't remember as well), that lets you stack levels from others classes to give it power.

Eldariel
2008-11-05, 12:47 PM
You can use your familiar without problems, but it doesn't count for PrCs, unless it especifies it, like this PrC that lets you advance both familar and animal companion levels (don't remember the name). For that, you could get the Familar feat (complete adventurer or arcane, don't remember as well), that lets you stack levels from others classes to give it power.

What are you talking about? The question was if one character can have more than one familiar at a time. The answer is the last line in that:
"A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time. "

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 04:15 PM
If you are dead set on doing it go Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard 4/ Archmage 4

Take the feat Precocious Apprentice at first level so you can qualify for UM at level 3. At level 3 take the feat Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) so that it will qualify as your higher level casting class, allowing you to have UM advance Wizard every level.

That means your only 1 level behind on wizard spells, which isn't the end of the world, and still cast as a level 11 Sorcerer at level 12 (and have a CL of 16). Until you can find another way to progress both Sorcerer and Wizard at the same time that's about the best you can do.

At level 16 (wizard 5) take the Spontaneous Divination alternate class feature to free up spell slots. Archmage gets you Mastery of the Elements, Arcane Reach, Spell Power, and Mastery of Shaping. RAW those apply to both your sorcerer and wizard spells.

Once would gain level 2 wizard spells regularly (level 6) Precocious Apprentice is a worthless feat. So use Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to make it into something usable.

If it was me I would go Grey Elf, take the elf generalist substitution level, and take the feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Dragon #319) to get Int to HP instead of Con. That let's you work off of one less ability score.

afroakuma
2008-11-05, 04:27 PM
And of course, my favorite solution: Homebrew! (per DM's discretion)

Example:

Channel Arcana
Arcane Feat

Prerequisites: Ability to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells.
Benefit: You may combine the levels of two of your spellcasting classes to determine caster level for spells of those classes.
Normal: A spell uses the levels of the class it is cast from to determine caster level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, add an additional spellcasting class to the combined level total.

Not the most ideal solution, but certainly an option per your DM.

Flickerdart
2008-11-05, 04:40 PM
Guys, for double familiars...if you alternate class feature for an Animal Companion on one side, wouldn't you have two then? Sure, they wouldn't advance very well, and it's unoptimal, but still.

Gaiwecoor
2008-11-05, 05:12 PM
If you are dead set on doing it go Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard 4/ Archmage 4

Casting a second level spell at level 1 doesn't give you 8 ranks in Spellcraft. You still need to be level 5 before you go into UM.

Mage of the Arcane Order could actually be somewhat fun - it's something I've considered in the past. Otherwise, the Ultimate Magus is your friend.

Kemper Boyd
2008-11-05, 05:24 PM
Try playing my favorite multiclass (also known as the Elan build): Sorceror/Thief/Fighter :)

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 05:48 PM
Casting a second level spell at level 1 doesn't give you 8 ranks in Spellcraft. You still need to be level 5 before you go into UM.

Mage of the Arcane Order could actually be somewhat fun - it's something I've considered in the past. Otherwise, the Ultimate Magus is your friend.

Oh yeah, that stupid requirement.

Drop Precocious apprentice then and just move 3 of those wizard levels around so it's sorcerer 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/ Wizard 1/ Archmage 4. Take Practiced Spellcaster for the sorcerer levels as before. It's not like it changes much if anything.

bue52
2008-11-05, 07:29 PM
Hmmm, I'm not too sure I want to take that many builds, though I was wondering, who else has tried this build before, I'd like to know how it went.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-05, 08:08 PM
Hmmm, I'm not too sure I want to take that many builds, though I was wondering, who else has tried this build before, I'd like to know how it went.

No one because it sucks? Seriously, a fighter is better than a wizard/sorcerer who alternates levels to end up Wizard 10/Sorcerer 10 at level 20. The only time it's playable is if you go into Ultimate Magus, in which case its fun and usable.

Chas the mage
2008-11-05, 11:57 PM
I've heard about a rulefrom a source book called "forgotten arcana": gestalt. You take the best of a class and pretty much "cross class them" exept its in the same level. you take whatever is best out of each class and add on. if you did this with a wizard/sourcerer i think it'd be kinda cool. so unless you're in the middle of a campeign or your DM is adament about the rules, you should try it.

Eldariel
2008-11-06, 12:00 AM
I've heard about a rulefrom a source book called "forgotten arcana": gestalt. You take the best of a class and pretty much "cross class them" exept its in the same level. you take whatever is best out of each class and add on. if you did this with a wizard/sourcerer i think it'd be kinda cool. so unless you're in the middle of a campeign or your DM is adament about the rules, you should try it.

The book is Unearthed Arcana, and Gestalt is a rules set that needs to be applied to the entire game. Other than that, yes, Wizard/Sorcerer could be gestalted just fine (although they wouldn't make a terribly exciting combination as you simply have the same spell list twice (in effect just giving you more spells of the same levels per day), just with bit different rules and also different casting stats, which sucks as far as saving throw DCs go).

bue52
2008-11-06, 12:01 AM
Well, if you just focus on maximizing yout character than sure, its not the nicest character to have, though as with real life, its not perfect, and there ARE people who play such characters, if you noticed, there was that one guy who played such a character in gestalt. So I'm just asking around, especially since there are people who play for the experience of it.

Eldariel
2008-11-06, 12:06 AM
Well, the word I used was "exciting", not "powerful" - while it's true that it's not very powerful, the real point is that it won't really feel that different from a straight Wizard or a Sorcerer. You've basically got the same skillset twice and since neither class has any real class features beyond spells, you'll very much have the same skillset twice, in just a bit different guise. That is, your character is little more than a Wizard or a Sorcerer. The whole isn't something different from the sum of its parts - it's precisely the sum of its parts.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 12:07 AM
Gestalt, it's fine, if more than a bit squishy(no skills, no HP, no BAB, and one save, plus the action limit). Out of Gestalt, a Wizard 5/Sorc 5 is less powerful than a Wiz 7. Go Wiz 4/Sorc 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wiz 1/PrC 4, and you'll be far more balanced than most Wizards.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-06, 12:17 AM
Look at it this way: You're a heroic adventurer, risking your life daily to bring evil villains to justice, defeat powerful monsters, and plunge into the darkest, scariest, most dangerous depths in the land. Throughout these adventures you've relied on those who travel with you, and they on you, to pull each other out of danger and make a fair contribution to the group's efforts to accomplish its goals in battle. Would you even consider bringing along a character as weak as the one you propose?

I'm sure such characters exist in a given game world, but it's not very likely that they'll find their way into a group of adventurers. There are characters who are successful and become powerful, there are characters who aren't successful and either die in battle or retire early, and then there are characters who never should have gotten out of bed, they're that bad.


...I thought I might as well try out this dangerous and possibly ineffective yet interesting character. One that combines instinct and intellect, two aspects of D&D Magic into the same character.

There are plenty of ways to do this mechanically without making an irredeemably weak character. With multiclassing, a character should have a primary focus and a secondary focus, with the primary focus being what they advance as much as possible and the secondary focus cutting into that as little as possible. That way your typical multiclass character is almost as good at his primary role as a single-classed character, and better at his secondary focus than anyone who hasn't focused on that same thing as their primary role. Often a character chooses a secondary focus which complements his primary focus and makes it stronger. What you've got is a character with two secondary focuses, neither of which complement each other. You're sacrificing your ability to do one thing to learn to do the exact same thing by another means, and you're only half as good at each of those as any single-classed character. With Ultimate Magus you can have a primary focus, and your secondary focus will actually add something to that primary focus rather than just dragging it down.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-06, 12:17 AM
Well, if you just focus on maximizing yout character than sure, its not the nicest character to have, though as with real life, its not perfect, and there ARE people who play such characters, if you noticed, there was that one guy who played such a character in gestalt. So I'm just asking around, especially since there are people who play for the experience of it.

I was the guy who mentioned playing one in gestalt. It worked fine because I had the equivalent of 64 point buy (2 18's, 2 16's, 2 14's) and was willing to maximize it. Outside of gestalt and without very nice stats it won't work.

A wizard 5/sorcerer 5 is less than half as effective as a wizard (or sorcerer) 10. Alternating wizard and sorcerer levels and assuming that you use every trick to increase your power you will still be weaker than an equal ECL fighter (I would favor a well built CW samurai over you).

If you use Ultimate Magus and are willing to focus on one half over the other (wizard being the better choice because you gain spells a level earlier) then you can make a nice character. But you do that by going:

Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/ UM 10/ Wizard 1/ Archmage 4, taking the feats Practiced Spellcaster and Faerie Mysteries Initiate with the Elf Generalist substitution level and the Spontaneous Divination alternate class feature. You take Grey Elf as your race and max Int and Cha, using Con as a dump stat. You cast as a level 18 Wizard and a level 12 Sorcerer at level 20. Your effective CL is 23 for your wizard spells and 21 for your Sorcerer spells.

bue52
2008-11-06, 12:30 AM
Oops, sorry about that, but well, I fins it needlessly complicated, for now, its just to try it out for fun, the idea on effectiveness was well.... I knew he won't be effective, though I was wondering what could be done to counter this problem while staying with the concept of such a character, and yes, I was planning to advance the Wizard side more than sorcerer side, though I thought that the uses of spells at lower levels would be useful, Soc3/ Wiz 17 for example, sure isn't the easiest character to use, but I think its worth the shot.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-06, 12:35 AM
Oops, sorry about that, but well, I fins it needlessly complicated, for now, its just to try it out for fun, the idea on effectiveness was well.... I knew he won't be effective, though I was wondering what could be done to counter this problem while staying with the concept of such a character, and yes, I was planning to advance the Wizard side more than sorcerer side, though I thought that the uses of spells at lower levels would be useful, Soc3/ Wiz 17 for example, sure isn't the easiest character to use, but I think its worth the shot.

What's the point of going Sorcerer 3/ Wizard 17? Just go Wizard 20 with the Spontaneous Divination class feature and fluff it as his sorcerer blood expressing it's self.

The thing isn't so much about the relative effectiveness when compared to an equal ecl straight wizard or sorcerer but when compared to Monks, or CW Samurai, or Soulknife's. And I would prefer a well built Samurai in my party over a Wizard 10/ Sorcerer 10.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 12:40 AM
Ultimate Magus is a class that combines Wis and Sorc casting. That's the fluff. It does what you want it to do. There is no reason at all not to take it instead of what you are doing. It's more powerful for the same character.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-06, 01:18 AM
I may be completely off on this, but here's what it looks like to me: He's thought up this character idea and has never heard of anyone combining these two classes before. He likes the idea so much he's determined to play it, mostly because it's his idea. Then half the people posting in the thread point out a prestige class that's specifically designed for that same class combination, and has been played plenty of times and makes a good character. However, he'd rather not use that prestige class and play an intentionally weak character, because by using the prestige class he'd acknowledge that his class combination idea isn't original at all.

A Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ PrC 5 with Practiced Spellcaster: Sorcerer ends up getting 18/20 Wizard spellcasting and 9/20 Sorcerer spellcasting, making it closer to the original idea than a Sorcerer 3/ Wizard 17 would be. Plus, what's the difference between going 3/17 or 1/19? Sorcerer 3 vs Sorcerer 1 gets only one more 0 and 1st level spell known, and one more 0 level and two more 1st level spells/day. There's absolutely no reason to take three Sorcerer levels instead of taking just one, both in-character and out of character.

bue52
2008-11-06, 02:35 AM
..... woah that seriously over analytical, not too sure if I'll be going that fair into the game, so I'll be sticking with the Ultimate Magus only for now, but..... errr isn't this a bit too much of a reaction, and I was just looking into the possibilities, partly because I'm still new to the 3.5 system, so I'm checking with you guys who have a greater experience then me about this, so yeah.... The 3/17 thing was just a random suggestion, no need to get to worked up ver it:smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 02:41 AM
If you're new, then I need to show you this, The 10 Commandments of OptimizationI. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.

III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.

IV. Avoid ye the temptation of Gauntlets of True Strike, for they shall lead thee astray down the Path of Non-Rule Cheese.

V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.

VI. Makest thou no build with an odd number of fighter levels, for such things are not pleasing to the Spirits of Optimization.

VII. The Rules of 3.5 are paramount; invoke not the rules of 3.0 if a newer version be available.

VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.

IX. Invoke not "common sense," for it is not common.

X. Thou shalt call no build "The Ultimate X" unless his name be Pun-Pun, or thou shalt see thine "Ultimate" build topped by the Bretheren within five minutes of posting.Note rules 1 and 5. That's the issue people have with your build. ;)