Scaling encounters [4E]

[Hzurr]

So my 4E group just started hitting some of the quests from H2: Thunderspire Mountain. Here are the characters:

Dragonborn Warlord (inspiring)
Human Cleric (wis-based, wizard multiclass)
Dragonborn fighter (sword-n-board)
Dragonborn cleric (str-based)
Dragonborn barbarian
Minotar Paladin (str-based)
Drow Warlock (Star pact)

First off, yes, there's a lot of dragonborn. The first two are from the first part of the campaign, the second two came in as brothers of the fighter (a new player who randomly decided to include his family tree when he created his character. We've gotten a suprising amount of milage out of this).

Here's my issue: I need to scale the encounters up to challenge them (the default campaign is designed for 5 PCs). However. This group SLAUGHTERS things. The amount of damage the party can do in a round is mind-boggling, and since half the party are dragonborn (most of them with the expanded breath feat) as well as having the cleric/wizard, not having a controler isn't an issue, because they can simply lay down huge bursts of dragonbreath and such to wipe out large groups of minions. In addition, with two clerics, a warlord and a Paladin, healing really isn't an issue. Before some of the new characters came in, we only had a warlord and a paladin for healing, so difficult encounters were easy to come by, but now...

Normally, as a way of "challenging" them, I'd simply throw in some skill challenges, but the players are smart enough that they have most (if not all) skills covered by 1-2 PCs each, and several of the players are smart enough IRL to think out good strategy, and figure out puzzles.

I have a sinking feeling that simply throwing more monsters, or giving the monsters more HP isn't really going to work.

My only thought thus far is to use more controllers against them, but I'm not sure how effective that will be.

Thoughts?

[Tengu_temp]

Add enough monsters to each encounter to make 7 characters receive the same amount of experience each as 5 would receive for beating the pre-upgraded encounter - usually it'd be 2 monsters at the party level. To challenge the party, I suggest:

1. Minions. Spread them out so their AoE attacks will take only some of them at once. Minions are very annoying if you have to take them down one by one.
2. Leaders (L) - these monsters buff other monsters. From my own experience, a single leader can make enemies much harder to take down.
3. Elite monsters - strong, lots of HP, have action points, with 7 players in the party you should be able to stuff one into most encounters.

[FoE]

They have no rogues?!

Well, there's your answer right there. Combine traps with your monsters.

[Yakk]

A simple way to approach it is to start with a standard encounter.

Then take 40% to 50% of the existing budget, and spend it on more opponents.

With a large party, you also need to 'open up' the board a bit, or the two non-melee (Wis cleric and Warlock) won't be threatened enough.

If you don't want to add a tonne of monsters, you can do an elitization of your monsters. Note that the 4e DMG "elite templates" are not that well balanced -- they are good for inspiration more than plug-and-play.

An elite should get:
+4 to +6 total to defenses (Ie, +2 to two, or +2 to three, etc)
+2 bonus on saves
An action point
Roughly double HP.
A boost in ability to deal damage by about 75% over a combat.
Be roughly twice as complex to run as a normal monster (so more neat **** is allowed)

The boost to offense is the tricky part.

Include complex topology maps -- maps without choke points -- and some lurkers to make your combat a bit more paranoid.

Concentrate fire on one player to take that player out, or force burning of healing resources and the other players defending that one player.

Mix it up with players to make AOEs harder to use.

[Hzurr]

They have no rogues?!

Well, there's your answer right there. Combine traps with your monsters.

The Warlock has the Theivery skill. I think they have every skill in the game covered at least once


Overall, though, these suggestions are good. Since many of the encounters are "pre-mapped," it's difficult to change the topography significantly, so adding/changing enemies is a little easier. However, doing some room re-arranging shouldn't be impossible...

[Drakefall]

Using traps is a good idea. Creative use of terrain could also help. Chasms, difficult terrain, corridors, random bodies of water, height, etc.

If all else fails... Tuckers Kobolds! Death holes, traps, small tunnels, more traps, fire... gotta love the kobolds.:smallamused:

EDIT: Idea's thrown to ground and trod on by OP ninja:smalleek:

[FoE]

Just the Warlock? Then my point stands. Unless he has a high Dex score for no apparent reason, he's going to be worse at Thievery than a rogue. And even if he was the Flash, he's going to fail his check at some point, and hopefully it'll involve a boulder falling on his party.

Also, are you using insubstantial monsters like ghosts, or a iron-hided monstrosity like a grick? Have you considered adding armour to monsters — especially if the quest is humanoid-heavy — to make them harder to hit?

And how about about poison/disease? Forgive me if I'm wrong, as I only skimmed this chapter, but I believe using poison/disease doesn't add to the XP value of the encounter. And it would help sap your PCs.

Also, I would suggest minimizing minions. Remember, taking out minions is as easy as swapping out four of them for one monster of equal level.

[Eorran]

How about running encounters? Skirmisher/lurker combos can be nasty, if you can draw the PCs out. Liberal use of artillery looks like it could hinder your group quite a bit as well.
Suggested encounter: artillery (2-3 units), placed where the PC's can't easily reach. Brutes/Soldiers block their way (expect these to die fast). Skirmishers and lurkers hit their rear 1-2 rounds after combat starts. Then bring a second wave of heavies when they turn to deal with the lurkers. Add a controller to the second wave of heavies for extra pain.
You've got 7 PC's, and 3 1/2 of them are healers. Unless you're dropping a ton of damage on one target, you're unlikely to take them down, but mobility, range, and reinforcements can wear on them and provide a challenge. Make your encounters stretch longer than usual. Draw them out of formation to hammer the more vulnerable (warlock).

[Knaight]

Flying enemies, enemies clinging to walls or ceiling, insubstantial strikers who phase through walls, strike, and phase back, etc. Have enemies target the environment to change it(for instance, lets say that the party is in a cave by a lake. Hit a wall and have water rush through, when it pins a party member to the wall, its zappy time. Watch Code Geass if you ever run out of inspiration, it has some good examples(ie slanting a battle field, then sliding down it while everybody else falls off, except for allies attached to it.)

[kbk]

I'm also currently playing in a group with 7 characters..

We've got
1 fighter
2 rangers
1 rogue
2 warlocks
1 warlord

The warlord took a MC feat to delve into mage powers, but we are actually pretty limited in control and area of effect spells, so that's one area our DM challenges us. Conversely, we have awesome ranged damage potential, and very potent focused damage. We routinely take down 1-2 baddies a round once we get rolling.

You can also easily increase encounter budgets. Add an appropriate amount of experience worth of monsters based on what the prewritten module has. Someone pointed out that with 7 players, it should be slightly more than 50% of the initial budget that is posted.

[Saintjebus]

Add a solo monster to the enounter. Normally, solos are just that-solo. However, if you combine them with a couple of elites, you should have some monsters that won't just lay down and die after a couple of breath weapons. Also, try giving some monsters immunity/resistance to the breath weapons.

Also, if you add some difficult terrain, it will make it easier to get the pcs where you want them.