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Wckd
2008-11-06, 07:17 PM
At the moment I play as a wizard, but I feel it is good to have a few to choose from, so I have already built a few others. The one I am working on at the moment was created based on this idea:
A combatant that is capable of casting both arcane and divine spells spontaneously, while focusing on unarmed combat and dodging attacks.

At the moment we only use a few books in the d&d group I play in.
PHB, DMG, MM and Dragonlance Campaign setting. We usually use races and core classes from PHB and the deities from DLCS, but races and classes from DMG and DLCS is also available if we want to use those.

Basic info
The character I have been building is a human(PHB).
The alignment I have chosen is LG, and the deity is Kiri-Jolith(a bit like St. Cuthbert)
10 Int, 12str, 12Cha, 12cons, 16wis, 16dex should be enough for the char, but If I get 3x 16+ stat rolls, a 12, a 10 and a 7, then str may be used for the 7. I plan to use 1 Sai(disarm bonus) and have 1 hand empty to be able to cast spells with somatic components. So far I have built the character to lvl 8 starting with a lvl of Mystic(DLCS) and adding a lvl of Sorcere(PHB) before taking 6 Monk(PHB) lvls.

Spells:
Cantrips: Prestidigation, Detect magic, Mage hand, Disrupt undead.
Orisons: Create water, read magic, guidance, Virtue or Cure minor wounds. (If temporary hit points=healing then Virtue, if not then CMW)
1st lvl: Arcane Mage armor, Charm person or unseen servant
1st lvl Divine: Truestrike(Insight Domain), Inflict light wounds, comprehend languages

lvl Progression:
1: Spontaneous Divine Spellcasting (Mystic from DLCS), Uncanny Dodge(Insight Domain), Blind-Fight, Two Weapon Fighting
2: Spontaneous Arcane Spellcasting (Sorcerer), Summon Familiar
3: AC bonus, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed strike, Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning fist, Weapon Focus:Unarmed Strike
4: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
5: Still Mind
6: Weapon Finesse, Ki strike, Slow fall 20ft.
7: Purity of Body
8: Improved Disarm, slow fall 30ft.

Now the problem is what to do after 8th lvl. I have thought of a few options and would like to hear your opinions on them, as well as alternative options. Here is the options I have thought about:

A) Continue taking Monk lvl's
B) Switch to another core class, Paladin or Rogue perhaps.
C) Take the Steel Legionnaire prestige class(From DLCS, 3lvls)
D) Go for Dragon Disciple Prestige class (from DMG)
E) Take 1-2 lvls of fighter(Weapon finesse as a FF at 9 instead of 6, Endurance at 6th, Honourbound(from DLSC) at 9), 1-2 lvl of Knight of the Crown(DLSC), take diehard at lvl 12 and become a Knight of the Sword(DLSC) at same lvl.
F) Get more lvls as a Sorcerer or a Mystic(core class from DLSC)
G) A different class combination (Using only PHB, DMG, MM & DLCS)


Please feel free to share your advice, comments or thoughts on the build or any further development of it. Thank you for your input!

Glyde
2008-11-06, 07:26 PM
Two Weapon Fighting does not apply to unarmed strikes to make both weapons unarmed, I don't think. Though if you wield a weapon in your main hand, an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon in your off-hand.


Also keep in mind that so far you only have level 1 of both arcane and divine spells, and your CL for bypassing things like spell resistance will be garbage. If you're going to go the multiple caster route, take Practiced Spellcaster for sure. It bumps your effective CL by four, to a max of your total level, to make caster level checks easier on you.

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-06, 07:32 PM
Could you get hold of Tome of Battle? if so, then you could probably better simulate this concept with an unarmed swordsage. Just fluff some of the maneuvers as spells.

With just the books you've listed, I think the character might be mechanically weak ...

CthulhuM
2008-11-06, 08:19 PM
Two Weapon Fighting does not apply to unarmed strikes to make both weapons unarmed, I don't think. Though if you wield a weapon in your main hand, an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon in your off-hand.

No, you can indeed two-weapon fight with unarmed strikes. You treat each unarmed strike as a light weapon, and follow the rules as normal from there. It's normally pretty suboptimal though, since monks already have trouble hitting things.

As for this build... any chance you could get ahold of complete adventurer? I think the spellthief might actually fit what you're looking for pretty well (provided you took a level monk to cover your unarmed ability). The spellthief gets its own (arcane) spells, and can steal spells (and later spell-like abilities) of any sort from the enemies it fights.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-06, 09:57 PM
Swordsage from Tome of Battle, using the spell caster variant (cheap as hell but it's exactly what you want). Dip 3 levels of cleric and convince your DM that spell caster Swordsage qualifies you for Mystic Theuge and that Mystic Theuge would progress your spell's for your swordsage half.

elliott20
2008-11-06, 10:05 PM
Swordsage from Tome of Battle, using the spell caster variant (cheap as hell but it's exactly what you want). Dip 3 levels of cleric and convince your DM that spell caster Swordsage qualifies you for Mystic Theuge and that Mystic Theuge would progress your spell's for your swordsage half.

second this advise.

Eldariel
2008-11-07, 04:14 AM
First of all, using a Sai is a bad, bad idea. Sai has a bonus on Disarm, yes, but it's a light weapon giving you -4. This leads to Sai being worse than a standard two-handed weapon for Disarming, and there're lots of opponents against which Disarming doesn't work at all (any monsters using natural attacks, casters, any warriors with Locked Gauntlets, etc.).

Steel Legionnaire is fairly amazing as long as you pimp out your cohort and pick up Leadership for another one. Out of the sources you've listed, that's by far the best option - get two caster cohorts and have them buff yourself to high heavens for each combat and use battlefield control magic to hamper the opponents.


I'd personally go Knight of the Crown 1/Knight of the Sword 3/Knight of the Rose -> if I were you. Knight of the Rose is a very solid PrC with Bardic Inspire-abilities compounded by full BAB, turn undead (for divine feats), Leadership bonuses and some miscellaneous bonuses. The best part? Most of them aren't dependant on Charisma.

Now, let's be honest, your character is going to have to suck multi-attribute dependancy up. You're also not going to be very good to start with - a Monk is just a Fighter with less feats, worse AC (since you can't wear armor) and non-full BAB. You don't really have the stats nor the books to pull a caster/Monk combo yourself, let alone double-caster/monk - heck, you don't really have the books to even pull the Monk-part of that (Monk with just PHB, DMG and MM just sucks and DLCS does little to help that).

With Tome of Battle, you could do what you strive for. Otherwise, you'll have to settle either for few low level spells with low saving throw DCs, no real Monk abilities or overall suckitude. Unarmed Arcane Swordsage would be exactly what you're looking for. Alternatively, Unarmed Swordsage > Enlightened Fist > Jade Phoenix Mage with Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt would also work (or just a real gish with Superior Unarmed Strike). Either way, you'd want splatbook access to properly combine the two sides - as it stands, you're simply lacking in tools to do what you want.


Also, Cleric is obviously the best casting class for what you're going for since you need high Dex and Wis and therefore can't afford high enough Int or Cha to cast on those stats. Tome of Battle would again provide you with Shadow Blade allowing you to use Dex for damage with unarmed strikes, but as that is out of your reach, I'd just get out of Monk ASAP and try to gain some abilities worth your while.

In short, the character you want could be replicated via Tome of Battle, but without that...

EDIT: Steel Legionnaire and Knight of the Rose had me thinking...it's possible to have that Apprentice, Leadership and full Knight of the Rose. Level 1 Ranger, level 2 Duskblade, level 3 Fighter qualifies save-wise. Favored and Primary Contact get you that one critical rank in one skill. Level 4 Knight of the Crown, level 5-7 Steel Legionnaire, level 8-10 Knight of the Sword, level 11-20 Knight of the Rose.

Roderick_BR
2008-11-07, 07:21 AM
Two Weapon Fighting does not apply to unarmed strikes to make both weapons unarmed, I don't think. Though if you wield a weapon in your main hand, an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon in your off-hand.
You can use TWF for unarmed strikes, I think. Nothing says you can't. You even have the benefit of not losing half your Str bonus to damage with your "secondary" attack, while both counting as light weapons.

Wckd
2008-11-07, 08:01 AM
Books
At the moment no more books are allowed, it is a new d&d group and we just wish to get started before expanding our book usage.
I may or may not have changed at the time I get to start a new character, so I could take a look at the Tome of Battle or Complete Adventurer just in case that they are allowed at that time.
:)

Spells
My reason to go for spells was using Truestrike & Mage armor a lot of times during the day, and 1 lvl of Sorcerer just didn't seem to provide enough uses/day. I think SR issues would mostly be a problem with Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead & Inflict light wounds, but I think I can live with that since those aren't the main focus for me. :)

Other things
The sai is out, I had completely forgotten about light weapon penalty on disarm :/
The knight of the rose route sounds interesting, I will have to look into that one! :)

Wckd
2008-11-07, 09:13 AM
EDIT: Steel Legionnaire and Knight of the Rose had me thinking...it's possible to have that Apprentice, Leadership and full Knight of the Rose. Level 1 Ranger, level 2 Duskblade, level 3 Fighter qualifies save-wise. Favored and Primary Contact get you that one critical rank in one skill. Level 4 Knight of the Crown, level 5-7 Steel Legionnaire, level 8-10 Knight of the Sword, level 11-20 Knight of the Rose.

With the current proposed build I smell trouble at lvl 8, as it is not possible to cast divine 1st lvl spells, which is a requirement for Knights of the Sword.
If the Ranger lvl could be switched with a lvl of a class that grants divine 1st lvl spellcasting and BAB+1, then the build could work.
Unfortunately it is not provided by any of the classes I have knowledge of.

Eldariel
2008-11-07, 09:16 AM
If the Ranger lvl could be switched with a lvl of a class that grants divine 1st lvl spellcasting and BAB+1, then the build could work.

Mystic Ranger.

Telonius
2008-11-07, 09:24 AM
Spells
My reason to go for spells was using Truestrike & Mage armor a lot of times during the day, and 1 lvl of Sorcerer just didn't seem to provide enough uses/day. I think SR issues would mostly be a problem with Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead & Inflict light wounds, but I think I can live with that since those aren't the main focus for me. :)



Mage Armor on a Monk isn't a terribly great idea. Aren't you using Bracers of Armor? +4 bracers are only 16,000gp, and they will save you precious actions you'd otherwise spend either casting spells or actvating items. True Strike can be had in potion form, if you really need it.

paddyfool
2008-11-07, 09:30 AM
As you only seem to want very simple spells, why not go straight monk or unarmed swordsage, put some ranks into UMD, and stock up on wands? There was a rather classic thread here about a "Joker Monk" that did just that which you could look up if you like really should look up to see how well this can work. Another spell you'd really want (based on that thread) would be Enlarge Person, for all the bonuses it gives you to unarmed damage, trips, grapples, etc.

Come to that, are wands even affected by Arcane Spell Failure?

pjackson
2008-11-07, 09:35 AM
I think in 3.0 you could not use TWF with unarmed strikes, but you can in 3.5 - it is in the FAQ. It's not like it makes monks overpowered.

You certainly have the stats for a monk/caster. I am currently playing one with worse stats. He may be weak by some standards, but he is one of the strongest characters in our group. However I am using stuff from Complete Arcane and Complete Rogue. Specifically the Enlightened Fist prestige class and the Ascetic Mage feat.

But back to your character


A combatant that is capable of casting both arcane and divine spells spontaneously, while focusing on unarmed combat and dodging attacks.

That doesn't give me a clear picture of what you want, but the actual build suggests an unarmed melee combatant who uses low level magics to enhance his abilities. But your BAB will be bad. It will be +0 at level 3 and by level 8 you will only have caught up with what a wizard would have. Add on the penalties for flurrying and TWF and you will be missing a lot.

I wouldn't go for 6 levels of monk unless you plan to go all the rest of the way as a monk, which it does not seem you are. If you want to disarm someone use stunning fist (stunned creatures drop what they are carrying) or Color Spray.
If you want to not take damage from falls use Feather Fall. If you want to be able to move fast use Expeditious Retreat. If you want to hit creatures with DR/magic use Magic Weapon, which will also compensate for the difference between d6 and d8 unarmed damage and improve your chance to hit.

To make a character for that concept using the books specified I might go:

Monk 2 - focus on unarmed combat, wis to AC and evasion
Mystic 2 - Divine spells and keeps BAB from getting behind a wizards.
Sorcerer 1 - Arcane spells
Fighter 4 - Specialize in unarmed strikes

I don't know DLCS well enough to be certain where to go from there.
Taking sorcerer up to 6 and then going eldritch knight would be tempting.

As has been noted the Practised Caster feat would be very useful.

Glyde
2008-11-07, 10:16 AM
I think in 3.0 you could not use TWF with unarmed strikes, but you can in 3.5 - it is in the FAQ. It's not like it makes monks overpowered.



Whoops, haha, my bad.

I'm sure there's a monk variant on the playground that will give you a full BAB or something if your DM will allow it. I'll go take a looksie now (Because I'm curious myself)


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=903329

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85892&highlight=Monk

A couple I've found real quick for your consideration. Might make things a little easier.

Wckd
2008-11-07, 05:07 PM
Again thanks for the interest and comments, they are greatly appreciated! :)

Based on the input in the thread I think I have worked out a different build for the character. At the moment I just miss selecting the non-qualifying feats (lvl 3, 12, 15, 18). Here is the build:

1xRanger->2x Monk->1xSorcerer->1xMystic->1xFighter->1x Knight of the Crown->3x Steel Legionnaire->3xKnight of the Sword->7xKnight of the Rose

It may seem like a strange build at first, but I believe it will work.
It will miss some feats as most of the feats gained before lvl 12 will be used to qualify for the prestige classes, but it will also provide a wide range of possibilities:

Unarmed combat abilities, favored enemies, apprentice+leadership, familiar, 0-5th lvl divine spells, 0&1st lvl arcane spells, turn undead, able to fight both with and without armor...