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ThrustVectoring
2008-11-06, 09:02 PM
can you use leap attack while charging and mounted? Ride skill description says that you can make your mount leap over obstacles, etc. And the feat description for leap attack doesn't mention mounted/unmounted at all, although it says "jump" so I dunno.

If you let leap attack + mounted charge work, you can combine the two to get hefty damage at level 5 at the price of 5 feats (or level 6 if leap attack isn't a fighter feat). 5 feats is human with 2 level fighter dip at ECL 5, or non-human with 2 level fighter dip at ECL 6. The feats would be: mounted combat, ride-by attack, spirited charge, power attack, leap attack. If you have a +4 strength modifier, a spirited leaping charge with a lance with powerattacking 5 would deal 3x (2d4 + 6 + 15). Which will average out at 78. Which is more than the 50 required to take a massive damage check (do monsters have to take massive damage checks?)

In fact, even with minimum rolls, you'll be dealing 69 damage, which forces a massive damage check.

Take lion totem barbarian to pounce with this for even more ridiculousness at level 6.

Hal
2008-11-06, 09:55 PM
I've asked this before myself, and the consensus seems to be "no."

The general idea being that Leap Attack wording states that you make the jump on your attack, not the mount.

FWIW.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-06, 10:14 PM
So if i where to make a paly mount or a animal companion mount and gave them leap attack it would work no?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-06, 10:17 PM
If your mount has Leap Attack, then only its own attacks would benefit from it.

Currently, the only way to benefit from both Leap Attack and being mounted is to play a Zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), or a Centaur or Tauric creature if your DM wants to rule that they gain the same benefit by virtue of shape.

Pie Guy
2008-11-06, 10:24 PM
3x (2d4 + 6 + 15).

You've figured out a way to deal this much damage and you aren't wielding the lance two-handed? Wouldn't it then be 3x (2d4+6+30) damage instead?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-06, 10:25 PM
If your mount has Leap Attack, then only its own attacks would benefit from it.

Currently, the only way to benefit from both Leap Attack and being mounted is to play a Zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), or a Centaur or Tauric creature if your DM wants to rule that they gain the same benefit by virtue of shape.

Fair enough..

Hawriel
2008-11-06, 11:12 PM
You've figured out a way to deal this much damage and you aren't wielding the lance two-handed? Wouldn't it then be 3x (2d4+6+30) damage instead?

Lances are not two handed weapons, unless you are using a footmen's lance.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 11:18 PM
Lances are not two handed weapons, unless you are using a footmen's lance.One-handed weapons can be wielded in 2 hands or 1.

Severedevil
2008-11-06, 11:21 PM
Please enlighten us - how do you set a lance for a charge while wielding it in two hands?

This is a classic cheat in D&D... ignore what is possible or plausible in favor of what stacks the most multipliers.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 11:24 PM
Please enlighten us - how do you set a lance for a charge while wielding it in two hands?

This is a classic cheat in D&D... ignore what is possible or plausible in favor of what stacks the most multipliers.Right hand at the base of the grip, next to your right side. Left hand about 6" in front of right. Charge. Not too implausible.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-06, 11:26 PM
lances also do 1d8 rather then 2d4...

so (1d8 + 4 + 10)x3 for dmg

If you crit though i believe its x6 :)

You could do
Human Fighter 4/ Psi warrior 1
str 18

1 mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge
2 power attack
3 weapon focus (lance)
4 Weapon spec(lance)
5 Psi weapon

if you where fully buffed
Focus + offensive presence
so you would be on the charge
+2 ( 4 +1 focus +2 charge - 5 power attack)
(1d8 + 2d6 + 4 + 10 + 2 + 2(presence)x3
Avg: 4 + 6 +4 +10 +2 +2 = 28

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-06, 11:40 PM
Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Full BAB class 1/Fighter 4

22 Str starting, +2 item
Wield a +1 Flaming Lance
Mounted Combat/Ride by Attack/Spirited Charge/Power Attack/Imp Bull Rush/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper
Drink a potion of Enlarge
Deal [15(Str)+2d6(weapon)+18(PA)]x3(lance)+1d6+1
Minimum 107, avg 124.5
To-hit of +21/+16

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-07, 12:30 AM
Human Fighter 1/ Paladin 5, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon: Ritiik (FB), Leap Attack; Charging Smite variant (PH2), Str 18, Cha 14; +1 Valorous (UE) Ritiik, Armbands of Might; Rhino's Rush prepared (SC).

Cast Rhino's Rush, Charge, Power Attack two-handed for -6 with Leap Attack, Smite Evil, Charging Smite.

1d8+7: +1 Weapon with Str two-handed
+28: Power Attack two-handed for -6 with Armbands is +14, increased by 100% from Leap Attack
+15: Smite Evil (Paladin level) plus Charging Smite (twice Paladin level)
x3: Rhino's Rush + Valorous, both x2 normally

(1d8+50)x3

Average 163.5 damage on the initial hit (at +9 to hit). They must then make a Reflex save DC 10 + damage (173) or be hooked by the Ritiik, granting you a free trip attack at +10 (Str, Armbands, Improved Trip). If successful, you get another attack vs their prone AC, still Power Attacking with Leap Attack and Valorous but no longer with Smite Evil or Rhino's Rush, for (1d8+35)x2 at +7 to hit their now prone AC, average 79. Total average 242.5 damage unmounted, then pull the ritiik out (it only takes a full-round action to pull it from yourself or remove it with a heal check) to automatically deal the same damage as the initial attack (average 163.5), and they're prone.

Total average 406 damage unmounted at level 6.

Triaxx
2008-11-07, 08:00 AM
Hmm... I'd always ruled that Leap Attack works from Mounted Combat, but only if you succeed on a ride check. And when the attack ends you're dismounted. The mount can continue moving, but only if you have Ride-by Attack.

FMArthur
2008-11-07, 08:07 AM
What if you leap *off* of the horse as part of the charge?

Triaxx
2008-11-07, 03:43 PM
Exactly what I was failing to refer to in my post.

Person_Man
2008-11-07, 05:23 PM
No.

The text of the Leap Attack feat specifically requires that "you" jump at least 10 feet. If you're riding a mount, you can't jump.

You can combine Leap Attack with Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Rhino's Rush, and Favored Power Attack. An Orc or Half Orc Paladin using one of the Champions of Valor variants or a PrC to get Favored Enemy can do all four, and he can add the PHBII Charging Smite variant on top of it.

But all you really need is Pounce, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge. Optimizing melee damage beyond that point is just self defeating, because its wasted on 90% of enemies, and it forces DMs to create crazy BBEG who can withstand your 1,000+ damage attacks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-07, 05:37 PM
Nah, the BBEG just has a BoED version Retributive Amulet, the spell Indomitability up, and a Contingency: Heal.

FMArthur
2008-11-07, 07:27 PM
No.

The text of the Leap Attack feat specifically requires that "you" jump at least 10 feet. If you're riding a mount, you can't jump.

You can combine Leap Attack with Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Rhino's Rush, and Favored Power Attack. An Orc or Half Orc Paladin using one of the Champions of Valor variants or a PrC to get Favored Enemy can do all four, and he can add the PHBII Charging Smite variant on top of it.

But all you really need is Pounce, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge. Optimizing melee damage beyond that point is just self defeating, because its wasted on 90% of enemies, and it forces DMs to create crazy BBEG who can withstand your 1,000+ damage attacks.

But... but... Rule of Cool! :smallfrown:

Triaxx
2008-11-08, 04:21 PM
No.

The text of the Leap Attack feat specifically requires that "you" jump at least 10 feet. If you're riding a mount, you can't jump.

Hench my suggestion of a Ride check to dismount.


But all you really need is Pounce, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge. Optimizing melee damage beyond that point is just self defeating, because its wasted on 90% of enemies, and it forces DMs to create crazy BBEG who can withstand your 1,000+ damage attacks.

Hopefully this then makes him neglect a critical save that the Wizard can exploit.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-08, 10:18 PM
If you try Leap Attacking from your mount you would not be considered mounted when making the attack. The Lance was not developed until the invention of stirrups, otherwise when making such an attack the rider would be knocked back off their horse. The only reason you get damage multipliers when mounted is because you've got your feet in the stirrups and you're using the momentum of the mount to drive your weapon into your opponent. By leaping off you would lose that momentum, since your feet would no longer be in the stirrups. Sure it would be cool to Leap Attack from your mount, but you would lose all of the benefits of being mounted by doing so.

Talic
2008-11-08, 10:30 PM
1) Provided you had a mount ahead of you acting on your initiative...

and

2) you were mounted behind it

and

3) you make a jump check from one horse to the other

and

4) front horse finishes movement and you hit.

??

FMArthur
2008-11-09, 12:13 AM
If you try Leap Attacking from your mount you would not be considered mounted when making the attack. The Lance was not developed until the invention of stirrups, otherwise when making such an attack the rider would be knocked back off their horse. The only reason you get damage multipliers when mounted is because you've got your feet in the stirrups and you're using the momentum of the mount to drive your weapon into your opponent. By leaping off you would lose that momentum, since your feet would no longer be in the stirrups. Sure it would be cool to Leap Attack from your mount, but you would lose all of the benefits of being mounted by doing so.

You would maintain your momentum, despite having less inertia compared to someone still attached to their horse.

monty
2008-11-09, 12:20 AM
You would maintain your momentum, despite having less inertia compared to someone still attached to their horse.

Not quite. Since p=mv, and your mass while mounted is greater than your mass while unmounted, your momentum is greater while mounted as well. Your velocity stays the same, though.

ThrustVectoring
2008-11-09, 12:22 AM
he Lance was not developed until the invention of stirrups, otherwise when making such an attack the rider would be knocked back off their horse.

not by RAW they aren't, they just take a ride penalty while fighting bareback.

FMArthur
2008-11-09, 12:38 AM
Not quite. Since p=mv, and your mass while mounted is greater than your mass while unmounted, your momentum is greater while mounted as well. Your velocity stays the same, though.

Whoops. Years of no physics class have made me somewhat forgetful.

Triaxx
2008-11-09, 09:37 AM
Yes, and no. The Knight in armor style of lance didn't come around until stirrups, but Native americans used lances which were basically spears on horse back without ever encountering European Knights. The Triple Damage style of lance is the KinA style.

But I'm just talking about being able to use a leap attack. Not adding the damage.

Gorbash
2008-11-09, 10:13 AM
lances also do 1d8 rather then 2d4...

so (1d8 + 4 + 10)x3 for dmg

If you crit though i believe its x6 :)



Actually, it's x4. Those multipliers are add up, not multiplied. It would be kinda too much if it was x6, then you add Rhino Rush, and get x12 multiplier...

Grayraven
2008-11-09, 11:12 AM
Not quite. Since p=mv, and your mass while mounted is greater than your mass while unmounted, your momentum is greater while mounted as well. Your velocity stays the same, though.

I love the sound of a dying catgirl in the morning.

ThrustVectoring
2008-11-09, 11:27 AM
Yes, and no. The Knight in armor style of lance didn't come around until stirrups, but Native americans used lances which were basically spears on horse back without ever encountering European Knights. The Triple Damage style of lance is the KinA style.

But I'm just talking about being able to use a leap attack. Not adding the damage.

Native Americans didn't have horses before the europeans came though, IIRC

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-09, 11:53 AM
Native Americans didn't have horses before the europeans came though, IIRC

That is true however horse multiplied incredible here when the between the time the spanish invaded mexico and the whole manifest destiny thing, horses had already populated most of the plains in the US.
Edit: The east coast tribes didn't have horses... except the Creek Nation if I remember correctly.


Gorbash:
Yes how ever those multipliers have nothing to do with criting so the critical multiplayer is done after. And actually i was wrong the math is as follows with a crit:

[(1d8 + 4 + 10)x3] x3 as a lance has a x3 multiplyer
so average dmg would be:
4.5+4+10= 18.5
18.5 x3 = 55.5
55.5 x3 = 166.5 or 166 cuz you round down...

Triaxx
2008-11-09, 03:16 PM
Horses and Columbus are the two best things to ever come from Spain. And while Europeans introduced horses, the indians didn't meet armored knights.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-09, 03:52 PM
Horses and Columbus are the two best things to ever come from Spain. And while Europeans introduced horses, the indians didn't meet armored knights.

Agreed but they still had lance's


"After the Western introduction of the horse to Native Americans, the Plains Indians also took up the lance, probably independently, as American cavalry of the time were sabre- and pistol-armed, firing forward at full gallop. The natural adaptation of the throwing spear to a stouter thrusting and charging spear appears to be an inevitable evolutionary trend in the military use of the horse, and a rapid one at that."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance

Triaxx
2008-11-10, 06:44 AM
I was purposely avoiding Wikipedia, because anytime it get's mentioned here, someone explodes with Nerdly Rage.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-11-10, 08:36 AM
I was purposely avoiding Wikipedia, because anytime it get's mentioned here, someone explodes with Nerdly Rage.

fair enough i just didn't have any internet sources avalable at the time...