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Townopolis
2008-11-07, 02:42 AM
For a game I'm trying to get into, my character submission is a Cha-based paladin. His stats are as follows:

14 STR
12 CON
10 DEX
13 INT
14 WIS
16 CHA

I'm using a longsword for the extra point of proficiency, and was planning on taking Heavy Blade Opportunity to avoid ever having to put a point in Str after my initial investment. Unfortunately, I can't do that for obvious reasons, at least not without throwing my build pretty much all to hell. Even more unfortunately, having a pretty good Int is rather central to the character's concept.

Given that I'll never qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity (and shield spec. and evasion), and don't plan on ever putting another point into Str, it looks like my ability to OA will rapidly deteriorate. Given this, I'm half-inclined to drop my Str by 1, raise Con by 1, for more HP and faster Fort growth (placing 1 point wherever, Dex I guess, I want to keep at least 13 Str for multiclass feats).

So will this character work, even without the ability to OA worth a damn?

For your further information, this is my current build plan, although plans can change.


1 Linguist, Student of Battle
2 Action Surge
4 Human Perseverance +1 Cha, +1 Con
6 Mounted Combat
8 Healing Hands +1 Cha, +1 Wis
10 Toughness
11 Hospitaler Great Fortitude
12 Lightning Reflexes
14 Iron Will +1 Cha +1 Con
16 Plate Specialization
18 Mettle +1 Cha +1 Wis
20 Uncanny Dodge

[Edit]: I should mention that my 3rd At-Will is a homebrewed power. Identical to a basic attack except using Cha instead of Str. It's usable on a charge (but not as an OA, or when granted a "basic attack").

Starsinger
2008-11-07, 02:49 AM
Yes, you should be viable.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-07, 02:53 AM
Yes, you should be viable.

To expand: a Paladin who doesn't do well with OAs isn't the end of the world. Unlike Fighters, Paladins do most of their controlling with their zappy Mark and by being really annoying. Being able to hit with OAs is just the icing on the cake.

Sure, it might be a little annoying, but it's more like a STR Cleric with a low WIS than, say, a Polearm Fighter with low WIS :smallbiggrin:

Starsinger
2008-11-07, 02:56 AM
To expand: a Paladin who doesn't do well with OAs isn't the end of the world.

True, just make sure you don't go for Justiciar, their ability to OA an enemy that triggers the mark is really the only time you'll miss it.

Townopolis
2008-11-07, 02:59 AM
Isn't that Champion of Order, which is a Str-based PP anyway?

Starsinger
2008-11-07, 03:00 AM
Isn't that Champion of Order, which is a Str-based PP anyway?

Err.. yes. Yes it is. :smallredface:

Yakk
2008-11-07, 04:24 PM
You should pick a weapon for which you have the secondary stat to gain feats in it. Really!

Tengu_temp
2008-11-07, 04:57 PM
What if I don't have enough stats to get feats for any weapons?

centauri
2008-11-07, 10:30 PM
I agree that you should be perfectly viable. Should you find yourself needing to make opportunity attacks, there are plenty items and feats that improve them, and probably more than a few powers that will make a given enemy easier for you to hit.

greenknight
2008-11-08, 12:52 AM
Not being good at opportunity attacks isn't the end of the world, but being a defender, it does help. If you've got your heart set on your character being a Human, then you're just going to have to live with it. On the other hand, if you are willing to accept a Halfling (or one of several races from the MM), you could make room for Heavy Blade Opportunity without causing much disruption to the rest of your build. Make your starting scores (without racial adjustments) as follows:

Str: 14; Con 10; Dex 12; Int 13; Wis 14; Cha 16. With the Halfling adjustments, that becomes Dex 14 and Cha 18.

You wouldn't be able to take the Human feats, and you wouldn't be able to get Plate specialization either, but you should qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity, Evasion and Shield Specialization.

SadisticFishing
2008-11-08, 02:03 AM
Um, you do realize you get +1 to all stats at level 11, right? Bringing you to 15 strength...

greenknight
2008-11-08, 02:09 AM
Um, you do realize you get +1 to all stats at level 11, right? Bringing you to 15 strength...

But for Heavy Blade Opportunity, you also need 15 Dexterity.

Townopolis
2008-11-08, 02:18 AM
Not being good at opportunity attacks isn't the end of the world, but being a defender, it does help. If you've got your heart set on your character being a Human, then you're just going to have to live with it. On the other hand, if you are willing to accept a Halfling (or one of several races from the MM), you could make room for Heavy Blade Opportunity without causing much disruption to the rest of your build. Make your starting scores (without racial adjustments) as follows:

Str: 14; Con 10; Dex 12; Int 13; Wis 14; Cha 16. With the Halfling adjustments, that becomes Dex 14 and Cha 18.

You wouldn't be able to take the Human feats, and you wouldn't be able to get Plate specialization either, but you should qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity, Evasion and Shield Specialization.

Your stats are off. Charisma would have to be 14 before adjustments and 16 after. Otherwise you're working with a higher PB than normal.

Anyway, being human is pretty important to the character. In the future, when I make a paladin, I'll simply swap my Int and Dex scores and otherwise use my current array. Then I will indeed get to use all the tasty, tasty feats you mentioned. For the current character, I'll miss them, but I'll live with it for this one campaign.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-08, 02:45 AM
Your stats are off. Charisma would have to be 14 before adjustments and 16 after. Otherwise you're working with a higher PB than normal.

Anyway, being human is pretty important to the character. In the future, when I make a paladin, I'll simply swap my Int and Dex scores and otherwise use my current array. Then I will indeed get to use all the tasty, tasty feats you mentioned. For the current character, I'll miss them, but I'll live with it for this one campaign.

Yeah, I figured you had a very specific character in mind with those stats. While not CharOp, you should still be OK - 4e is much more tolerant of off-spec builds :smallbiggrin:

Though... you might want to skip Plate Specialization. You'll be dumping an awful lot of points into CON to qualify; points you could be putting into WIS for some of the sweet secondary effects from CHA powers, and Lay on Hands. I don't know if those 2 discretionary boosts are worth the +1 AC, to be honest.

Artanis
2008-11-08, 12:01 PM
And don't forget the -2 check penalty that plate has compared to scale, making even less alluring.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-08, 12:06 PM
Since when paladins care about armor check penalties?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-09, 02:31 AM
Since when paladins care about armor check penalties?

QFT. It is the rare Paladin that expects to actually make an Athletics or Acrobatics check, much less a Stealth or Thievery one! Endurance is a whole 'nother matter, but let's face it - you might die of that disease eventually, but you'll die of that Balor's whip now :smallbiggrin:

Townopolis
2008-11-09, 02:34 AM
You'll also usually take off your armor to rest, and besides, does it ever say you can't use the heal skill on yourself?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-09, 02:43 AM
You'll also usually take off your armor to rest, and besides, does it ever say you can't use the heal skill on yourself?

Make your own dirty joke from the following:
(1) Not taking your armor off in bed
(2) Endurance Checks
(3) Armor check penalties on disease rolls

Remember: Paladins are no longer bound by the Paladin's Code, or necessarily LG :smalltongue:

TheOOB
2008-11-09, 02:59 AM
You could ask your GM if you could homebrew a feat that lets you use charisma for basic attacks, much like how swordmages have a feat that lets them use int for basic attacks, it wouldn't be terribly unbalanced.

Yakk
2008-11-09, 11:25 AM
Swordmages get that feat because their primary attributes are Con, Int and Cha, and they are a melee defender. Paladins don't have that excuse, and get double-benefit (both basic attacks and powers) from pumping Str.