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View Full Version : [4e] Proposed Changes to Multiclassing



LibraryOgre
2008-11-07, 03:28 AM
First of all, an unrelated image.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/3009232455_df6dcd0403_o.jpg

However, we were talking about the generally unsatisfactory nature of multiclassing in 4th edition tonight (in addition to watching one of our clerics act as a HP yo-yo... three leaders plus a paladin multied to warlord can throw a lot of healing), we (myself, Hzurr, myself, and the rest of the group) came up with a proposal for how multiclassing should work that we wanted to feed to the wolves.

1) You choose a primary class. For the purposes of an example character, we'll be doing a paladin who has no racial features.

2) You receive all traits and features of your primary class; armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, implements, Defense Bonuses, Hit points, Healing surges, trained skills and all class features. Our sample Paladin would gain Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, and Lay on Hands.

3) A character who spends a feat on a Multiclass feat gains no class traits or features of their second class, save the ability to use the implements of the second class when activating powers from the second class. From the moment of multiclassing, the character may freely choose powers of the heroic tier from each class, as appropriate to level. Furthermore, the character may choose class skills from each class.

3a) If multiclassing is done at 1st level, the character can be built with free choice of skills and powers from both classes. If the second class has a required skill (such as Arcana for Wizards, or Thievery for Rogues), it must be one of the trained skills of the character; the character gains no additional skill choices to gain this skill.

3b) If multiclassing is first taken after 1st level, the character must already possess or immediately retrain to possess any required skill of the second class (the limit of one retrained skill, power, or feat per level still applies; characters without access to a certain skill under their old class must wait until they gain a new feat, and thus would be able to retrain a skill at that level, or must acquire the skill through some other means). From that point forth, the character may freely choose powers and skills both classes, including retraining previous powers into powers of the second class.

4) In order to select paragon tier powers from their second class, a multiclass character must possess the feat Paragon Multiclass, which has a requirement of 11th level. In order to select epic tier powers from their second class, they must possess both the Paragon Multiclass and Epic Multiclass feats, the second of which has a requirement of 21st level.

5) Multiclass characters may learn the class features of their second class by spending additional feats. However, these features are inferior to those possessed by full members of the second class by one step in frequency; class features which are normally permanent or at-will are Encounter Powers; Encounter Powers are Daily powers. Powers remain the same action cost (Free, Minor, Move or Standard), though many permanent powers become free actions. Feats which rely on possession of these class features may be chosen when the character possesses the class feature in question. Multiclass characters may also choose to pursue the paragon paths of their second class without prejudice or additional cost.

As an example, we will begin with a Paladin who multiclasses into Wizard (hardly an optimal choice, but one that lets me illustrate several things). Since his primary class is Paladin, he has the armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, implements, saves, hit points and healing surges of a Paladin. He begins with the skill Religion, and may select any three skills from the Wizard and Paladin lists of trained skills (Arcana, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Intimidate, Nature, or Religion). One of his three choices MUST be Arcana, since he has multiclassed into wizard.

He is able to choose two at-will powers, one encounter power, and one daily power from either the Wizard or Paladin lists. He chooses Bolstering Strike and Magic Missile for his at-wills, Piercing Smite for his Encounter, and Sleep for his Daily. His only feat selection went into his Multiclass feat.

When he reaches 2nd level, he gains 6 HP, because his primary class is paladin. He may choose either a wizard or paladin utility power (he chooses Shield), and may choose one feat. He chooses to gain the class feature of Arcane Implement Mastery with the Orb of Imposition. Unlike a full wizard's Orb of Imposition, however, the Paladin/Wizard may only use this power once per day, not once per encounter. Had he chosen Spellbook instead, he would be able to select an additional daily or utility power every time he chooses a wizard daily or utility power, and prepare the one of his choice each day; if he already had the Ritual Caster feat or Ritual Casting ability, he would gain rituals like a wizard. Had he chosen Ritual Casting, he would have had the Ritual Caster feat. Had he chosen Cantrips, he would have gained the four wizard cantrips as encounter powers.

As this character continues in levels, he can choose to become more like his secondary class (gaining the other class features he has not chosen), or he can mostly improve his main class, dipping into wizard powers where useful. This sample character is hardly ideal, power-wise, but illustrates the option available through these alternate multiclassing rules.

Notes on classes:
Cleric: Both Clerics and Paladins have the Channel Divinity class feature. A multiclass Cleric/Paladin or Paladin/Cleric must learn the Channel Divinity class feature for their second class in order to use any of those abilities, but they remain encounter powers (with only one of the various options being available per encounter). The healing word power, when taken as a multiclass feat, should increase time by a factor of one; the power can be used twice per day (three times per day at 16th level), but only once per encounter.

Fighter: Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority are Encounter powers; Combat Challenge is a Free action, and Combat Superiority is an interrupt. Fighter Weapon Talent always applies once learned. Any fighter powers that gain advantages from using certain weapons always gain advantages from those weapons.

Paladin: As above, Paladin/Clerics and Cleric/Paladins must spend a feat to learn the Channel Divinity powers of their second class, but may use any one type of Channel Divinity as an encounter power, no matter which class is the source of it. If Lay on Hands is taken in a multiclass feat, it's limitation of once per day per point of Wisdom modifier remains, but it becomes an encounter power.

Ranger: A Ranger's Fighting Style and Prime Shot are permanent bonuses once selected. The Hunter's Quarry may be designated once per encounter, but the damage may be applied every round.

Rogue: A Rogue's First Strike and Weapon Talent abilities always apply once learned. Benefits from Rogue Tactics and bonus damage from Sneak Attack only apply once per encounter, but additional effects on powers from Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel always apply.

Warlock: If learned via class feature training, the pact power or Eldritch Blast are encounter powers; if learned through (re)-training of 1st level at-will powers, they are at-will powers. Shadow Walk and Warlock's Curse are encounter powers; a multiclassed warlock may only curse one target per encounter, but the curse has the normal effect. Once learned, Prime Shot is a permanent modifier.

Warlord: Commanding Presence is an Interrupt action Encounter power. Any powers enhanced by a Tactical or Inspiring Presence are permanently effected, however. Once learned, Combat Leader is a permanent bonus. As with a cleric's Healing Word, Inspiring Word may be used twice per day, but only once per encounter.

Wizard: As per the example, powers granted by Arcane Implement Mastery are daily powers, not encounter powers (though the bonus to AC from Staff of Defense remains a permanent bonus, so long as a staff is wielded). Cantrips, when learned, are encounter powers. Only Daily and Utility powers learned from the wizard class benefit from the Spellbook feature; if a given level's powers are to benefit from the spellbook feature, all powers selected for that level and frequency must be from the wizard class (so a 1st level Paladin/Wizard cannot freely select between Paladin's Justice and Sleep, for example, but might between Acid Arrow and Sleep).

Charity
2008-11-07, 04:32 AM
I like the characters I can make using these rules Mark, I love the versitility it gives to multiclass characters.

The only thing is why would you not? For the price of a couple of (lets face it cheep) feats you can pick and chose what features and powers you want.
I guess it's the same for all players, but it will favour the str based classes (as there are currently most str based powers).

its_all_ogre
2008-11-07, 04:48 AM
this is WAY OP.
currently multiclassing is an option which is useful and fairly powerful.

however the rules outlined above are going to make those that don't m/c massively weaker than those who do.

i think the rules are fine as they are.

its_all_ogre
2008-11-07, 04:58 AM
also how will this affect the bard who can m/c as many times as they want?

Oslecamo
2008-11-07, 05:36 AM
Who wouldn't anyone multiclass ASAP with those rules?

Also, this opens a bagload of possibilities for powerfull or even broken combinations.

Like its_all_ogre sai, the current multiclass rules already let for some pretty strong combinations, but your proposed changes will make essencial to multiclass in order to keep up with the party.

Feats are cheap in 4e, but variety is severly stricted. Allowing players to acess another classe's worth of powers for just 3 feats is somewhat power creeping.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-07, 11:04 AM
I don't see this as causing a major power increase; 4e powers are largely balanced within a level, no matter what class they're from... a Paladin power does different things from a wizard power or a rogue power, but they're all on about the same keel in terms of power. What it provides is flexibility. The additional class features granted by multi-classing are on-par with most feats, and require at least two feats to access (the multiclass feat itself, and the feat to access the class feature).

As for why people wouldn't do it, it varies on the combination. I see a lot of Fighter/Paladin/Cleric/Warlord combinations coming up from it (all having strength-based options, and requiring about the same stats; I approached this from a strength-based character), but none of those combinations provides an incredible amount of power over the other... and not taking them provides you with more feats which, while cheap, aren't free.

As for how it will affect the bard, it will have a couple different effects. One, they won't be able to conveniently dip for more skills-with-a-bonus-power. From what I understand of the bard, there is very little reason for them to take skill training, since every multiclass feat provides them with a bonus skill. In this version, they have more options for powers, but their skill count doesn't increase with each multiclass feat taken. Secondly, a bard who multiclasses extensively has a large number of powers to choose from at any given level... but will tend to favor multiclasses that play to their strengths (i.e. Charisma, Int, or Con based powers). To go otherwise requires a lot of MAD to be effective.

I'll also add that this version doesn't require official multiclass feats to be released for each class; general principles can be followed to derive what is available in terms of class feature feats, without needing them to take powers.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-07, 11:50 AM
I.. don't really see any improvement here. I mean, honestly, I'd let folks buy Class Features with Feats anyway. The only thing that has REALLY bugged me is that it's impossible to add stickiness (The other province of the defender; The ability to make hitting you tactically wise even if you're not squishy), and this doesn't address that.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-07, 11:59 AM
I.. don't really see any improvement here. I mean, honestly, I'd let folks buy Class Features with Feats anyway. The only thing that has REALLY bugged me is that it's impossible to add stickiness (The other province of the defender; The ability to make hitting you tactically wise even if you're not squishy), and this doesn't address that.

Yes it does. Both Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge are available to multi-classers, but in a more limited fashion (you have to choose a single target for most uses). Additionally, there are powers which can take further advantage of stickiness (like someone who multied to Paladin and uses Piercing Smite... they mark up to 3 people when they use it).

RPGuru1331
2008-11-07, 12:55 PM
Yes it does. Both Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge are available to multi-classers, but in a more limited fashion (you have to choose a single target for most uses). Additionally, there are powers which can take further advantage of stickiness (like someone who multied to Paladin and uses Piercing Smite... they mark up to 3 people when they use it).

If memory serves, you already get those as Encounters when you multi as is; And I maintained it's a problem then.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-08, 03:55 AM
If memory serves, you already get those as Encounters when you multi as is; And I maintained it's a problem then.
You're right, it's about the same level of stickiness. I misremembered the fighter benefit. On the other hand, increased access to powers does make you stickier, as there are several paladin powers which mark as part of the action. Fighters do not have them (since a power that lets you attack every person around you lets a full fighter mark everyone around them).

RPGuru1331
2008-11-08, 05:05 AM
It does allow a second power, this is true (I wouldn't go deeper given the choice anyway, since it'd make me question why I made it the multi). Although I have little problem with the base book (Stickiness and At-Wills aside), this does seem a good way to handle things for those who feel constricted by only having 1 power of each type (Besides At-Wills). What bugs me is that I can't say that Combat Challenge is any more necessary to being a defender then the various +XD6/turn mechanics are to being a striker, and before that thought, had little trouble dismissing them as 1/Encounter. Then again, most classes already do damage, so you may not need the +XD6 quite so much.

LibraryOgre
2008-11-08, 05:00 PM
My problem with the "It allows SAD, which is bad" is that there are viable builds that are SAD, in core. A Charisma Paladin doesn't have any blank spots... there are no levels where a Charmadin has no powers available to them. Strength-based Paladins need MAD... not just for their class abilities which benefit from Charisma or Wisdom, but for their "dead levels", where there are no strength powers available to them... heck, you can have a purely strength-based Cleric easier than you can have a purely strength-based Paladin, and that should never happen.

Clerics: SAD as Strength or Wisdom; the only level it's not possible to SAD a cleric is level 11, where all Paragon powers are Wisdom. Sure, Wisdom is great thing to have for any cleric (Healer's Lore, Turn Undead), but it's not 100% necessary except at 11th level.

Fighters: SAD Strength; I didn't see any that weren't strength. Their main need for variance is in what they target, since almost all are AC.

Paladin: SAD Charisma is no problem. There is no level without at least one Charisma option, and frequently two or three.

Ranger: Do you like Dexterity or Strength? You can do either one, and both is actually an option.

Rogue: There is ONE Rogue attack power that isn't Dexterity v. X. It's a 29th level power. There are two dexterity options in that level.

Warlock: A Charisma-based Fey Warlock is completely possible.

Warlord: Like the Fighter, all powers are strength based.

Wizard: The only wizard power that isn't Intelligence-based is Cloudkill, and that's because they left the Attack line out of the power description.

EVERY class is capable of SADing; some require it, because there are no other attributes in command of their powers. This isn't to say that other attributes aren't useful to a SAD class... a Charmadin will get mileage out of Wisdom and Charisma, a Warlock is smart to have both Con and Charisma, and Intelligence on a Fey Charlock is a good thing. But can you do everything with a single attribute for every class... so arguing that "This method will add to power because it allows SAD" is misinformed.

its_all_ogre
2008-11-08, 05:54 PM
ahem warlord is NOT ever SAD
you could play one with int/cha 10 it is true...
but you'd give NO BENEFIT to your party and would SUCK as a leader role.

{Scrubbed}

warlords need str and int/cha to be about equal imo to really benefit. hence not SAD
wizards benefit massively from good wis and dex(or be human and grab imp intiative) but con too for fort defence.


arguing a warlord can get away with SAD based on str is like arguing you can play a rogue with a dex of 10
in that you can, but you would SUCK massively.

i really do not see any issue with the multiclass rules as they are, they are really well balanced, provide interesting combinations and are not so good that you would NEVER multi-class...
whereas your proposed fix makes it detrimental to not multiclass.

what exactly are you trying to fix?

LibraryOgre
2008-11-08, 06:08 PM
ahem warlord is NOT ever SAD
you could play one with int/cha 10 it is true...
but you'd give NO BENEFIT to your party and would SUCK as a leader role.

Bollocks. They would be of LESS benefit, because they would be less (not in-) capable of aiding the party; he'll get fewer benefits on the powers that use them. However, if he goes the Inspiring Warlord route, he's still some benefit with the Commanding Presence (starting at level 2).

If you build a member of ANY class by spending maximum possible points on one of the indicated attributes, they're fine. If you add some secondary attributes (for a warlord, Intelligence or Charisma), they're better, but they're not incapable without them.

As to what I am trying to fix, I see the current multi-classing rules as very poor. Someone who multi's into warlock can't make use of the basic warlock skill of the Warlock's Curse, necessary to use the Warlock paragon path powers that they're allowed to take.

its_all_ogre
2008-11-09, 12:59 PM
you realise that an int warlord gives half of his int bonus to hit on his allies action point gained attack action?
and with an int of 10 that is half of 0
so no bonus?
and commanders strike with int 10 gives no benefit? especially is you have str 18 as then your chance to hit should be equal to your allies anyway?

you realise that the bonus to hit from lead the attack is 1+int bonus....or +1 with an int of 10?
and the feat adds your int bonus to damage from action point gained extra attack....+0

cha is slightly better when they spend action point they regain your cha bonus is hit points....0
furious smash make str attack and do str bonus damage: choose ally they get +(your cha mod) to hit and damage.....0
the encounter i power is 1+cha mod bonus to AC.....+1
daily gives cha bonus worth of temp hps.....0
but if you take the inspiring cha bonus feat you allow and action point spending ally to make a saving throw outside of the normal routine, with a bonus equal to your cha mod, which is 0

so where is this well worthy bonus you are giving your allies with your int/cha of 10?
specifically?

LibraryOgre
2008-11-09, 04:55 PM
Let's look at it, shall we? Let's assume the unlikely Warlord who has an 18 in Strength, and a 10 in every other attribute. When he gets attribute bonuses, one will be put in Strength, and the other will be put in Dexterity (since he has a bonus to Will from his class already).

First of all, he's going to go the Inspiring Presence route; as you pointed out, Tactical presence depends on your intelligence bonus, so is not the way for him to go. Inspiring Presence, however, allows him to add half his level. It starts becoming an issue at 2nd level

His At-Wills should be Viper's Strike and Wolf Pack Tactics; as you point out, both Furious Smash and Commander's Strike rely on you having an Int or Cha modifier.

His 1st level Encounter should be Hammer and Anvil, Leaf on the Wind or Warlord's Favor. While Hammer and Anvil isn't quite as ideal (since you have no Charisma bonus to add to damage), it's not a bad choice for accuracy, since it opens up a Reflex targeted attack (which you don't have many of). Warlord's Favor is also not a bad option... it would be better for a Tactical Warlord with a 14+ Intelligence, but the question of SAD isn't "would he be better if he had higher attributes in his non-primary ability" but "is he effective even without it"? I'd say Hammer and Anvil (because it targets reflex, and lets another character take a swipe) or Warlord's Favor (since it provides a good boost to another ally, and does more damage). Would probably depend on your party composition... with some other Strength-based characters, you'd go Hammer. With a non-strength party, you'd go Warlord's.

Now, 1st level Dailies, you'll probably want to look at Bastion of Defense or White Raven Onslaught. BoD suffers a little bit because you don't have a Charisma modifier to add on a miss, but WRO makes you a shifting machine... and doesn't rely on any attribute except Strength. Pin the Foe is a nice lock-down, but it also locks down your tactics (since you have to dog-pack people to get the benefit, and that may not always be the best tactics). Lead the Attack gets a nice bonus from Int, so it's not considered... but the other three are good options.

We reach 2nd level. Crescendo of Violence and Shake it Off are not the best options (though SiO isn't bad; a free, immediate, saving throw can come in very handy, even if you don't have a bonus from Charisma); Aid the Injured is a somewhat inferior version of Inspiring Word and can be replicated by a Heal Check (at this point, you've got a +6 if you trained it, so a Standard Action will allow your ally to Second Wind if you roll a 4 or higher), so I'd say Knights Move (the "Come help me, ya wee bastards" power) or Shake it Off are your best bets.

Let's look at 3rd level. We don't want Warlord's Strike, since it's inferior being an Inspiring Warlord without a Charisma bonus, but Steel Monsoon isn't horrible, and Hold the Line protects your entire party. If you didn't take Shake it Off last level, take Inspiring War Cry; if you took SiO, I'd say Hold the Line.

Now we're at 5th level. Stand the Fallen is not a bad power, though you'll suffer because you don't have a Charisma modifier, making it not quite as good as if you did... but, still, a healing surge is a healing surge, right? Turning point isn't bad... a higher-damage Inspiring War Cry, really. For my money, I'd go Villains Nightmare, allowing you to shut down movement adjacent to you, whether you hit or not... and adding another Reflex targeted power to your repertoire.

6th: Quick step is the obvious one; there's no attribute tie-in, just making an ally faster. In our games, however, I'd go with Stand Tough, since it heals everyone in 5 squares by 10. Inspiring Reaction isn't a bad idea, either... it'll keep you or an ally from falling once per encounter as a Reaction. It would be improved by a Charisma bonus, but it isn't bad without it.

7th: Sunder Armor, definitely. Lion's Roar is another Healing Surge power (which would be fine, if you think you need it), Surprise Attack loses out by not being a Tactical Warlord (doesn't matter your Int; you're not a Tactical), though might be good if you're frequently paired with a rogue. Surround Foe is nice, setting people up for CA, but it's not as nice as "I'm sorry, but we're going to critical against you three times as often, now", especially since Sunder Armor's crit help isn't limited to AC attacks.

9th: If your party contains a Barbarian, go with Iron Dragon Charge. Knock Them Down would be good in a high strength group (since they're more likely to succeed in a melee basic attack, and more likely to be within 3 squares of an enemy). For generic groups, however, I'd go White Raven Strike... 15 temporary hit points, and your Charisma modifier is only missed if you happened to kill the guy.

10th: Tactical Shift is right out. However, Ease Suffering and Defensive Rally are both great options that have nothing to do with your attributes. It may come down to how you decipher "Ease Suffering"; if First Aid or various Powers will let them make saves, even though they don't make them naturally, it's a great power. If it won't, it's putting off the inevitable. Defensive Rally, however, is a mass-Second-Wind-and-save party, and all your friends within 5 are invited... great power, no attribute requirements.

There. That's a well-built Warlord without Intelligence or Charisma through the Heroic tier. Would he be helped by having a good Charisma or Intelligence? Sure, and a little more than he might be by a good Dexterity or Wisdom. But they are not necessary for him to be a good Warlord, and that is why the Warlord is SAD. He can be competent, even good, at his role with only a single attribute.