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Captain Six
2008-11-08, 01:32 AM
My DM is starting up a new 3.5 campaign and I was thinking about making a gestalt character in a non-gestalt campaign. He has told me that he allows gestalt characters but they need 50% more experience to reach each new level. 1500 instead of 1000 to reach second level, 4500 instead of 3000 to reach third, ext... The rough logic behind it is that with gestalt you have the features of two characters moving at half speed, basically half of the advantages two different characters have.

My question is, is it worth it? Too high? Too low? I looked a bit and I couldn't find anywhere this has been asked.

For those curious I was looking at monk/unfettered(arcana evolved). It's not a devastating combination, they have the same Hit Dice and Skills per level, but the abilities complement each other, especially with the "flurry with longsword" feat from the Eberron Handbook. And it just sounds really fun to play.

La_Carnaval
2008-11-08, 01:40 AM
I think this would depend on the scenario. Is your DM someone who gives reasonable XP for role-playing or just for body count?

If you get a decent amount XP from RP then I think you could get the extra 50% without too much extra effort if you stepped up. If the XP is based on fighting then I think the extra 50% is a bit high, especially if the group splits XP from battles.

monty
2008-11-08, 01:41 AM
Properly optimized, gestalt is several orders of magnitude more powerful than regular. For an "average" player, it's only slightly better. I believe Unearthed Arcana recommends treating a gestalt character as one level higher for purposes of determining the party power level, so this would translate into an effective +1 LA. Really, increasing experience costs feels like a rather inelegant solution, since it seems like it'd create more balance issues than a static LA.

I'm not familiar with the unfettered, but anything with monk in it can't be too powerful :smalltongue:. As a DM, I'd see how it compares to the other characters, and give you a level adjustment based on that.

Yukitsu
2008-11-08, 01:45 AM
I went with the scaled levels, and it worked well. Remember to keep track of their ECL which is based on pure EXP totals, otherwise they start getting more EXP for encounters. Keep that in mind and it's fine.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 01:58 AM
I hate to sound like a total n00b, but what exactly is a gestalt character?

RTGoodman
2008-11-08, 02:02 AM
Gestalt is, basically, a variant rule where players take two classes at each level, gaining the class abilities of each and the better BAB, saves, and HD per level. You can read up on it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

I, of course, have probably been ninja'd by this point. Huh, guess the board's a little slow this time of night... :smalltongue:


Also, for the record, I've never thought Gestalt characters in non-Gestalt games were a good idea. If I were gonna do it, though, I'd probably do the "more XP per level" thing, but I don't have any experience to say if that's a viable option or not.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-08, 02:05 AM
What classes do you want to gestalt?

Some things become massively better in gestalt (monk, for example)and certain combinations can be outrageously powerful. How much is the rest of the party optimizing as well, and what classes are they?

Talic
2008-11-08, 02:11 AM
Yes, the monk is a terrible class in its own right, but has a lot of things in it that would round out other classes nicely.

AC Boosts for unarmored characters, as well as speed.
Possible extra attacks for fighters, as well as better skills, and resistances.
Exceptional saves, for any other class.

I mean, monk really is a good "add on pack". Just not so much as a base class.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 02:15 AM
wait, so with gestalt characters, multiclassing restrictions are gone?

Captain Six
2008-11-08, 02:16 AM
I'm not familiar with the unfettered, but anything with monk in it can't be too powerful :smalltongue:. As a DM, I'd see how it compares to the other characters, and give you a level adjustment based on that.

The gist of it is Unfettered get some sneak attack, some fighter bonus feats, and intelligence modifier to AC, AC bonuses for when you wear light armor or less, and a few other things. It's the best light armored fighter class I've seen this side of Tome of Battle.

Otherwise I didn't see any +1 LA rule, it seems kind of minor but then I'm not making a gamebreaking combo here.

monty
2008-11-08, 02:19 AM
wait, so with gestalt characters, multiclassing restrictions are gone?

Multiclass penalties are really weird in gestalt. I don't understand them, personally. As for the restriction for monks multiclassing, since you're still taking monk at every level, you never leave it, so you can keep taking more levels.

For example, you could take monk 1/druid 1, monk 2/cleric 1, monk 3/cleric 2...keep doing this, and as long as you take monk every level, you don't need to worry about the restriction. If you do, say, monk 1/druid 1, fighter 1/druid 2, then you couldn't take more monk levels.

RTGoodman
2008-11-08, 02:20 AM
wait, so with gestalt characters, multiclassing restrictions are gone?

No, not that I know of, but don't think of it as multiclassing.

If you were, for instance, a gestalt Fighter//Wizard (for some reason), at 1st level you would indeed be a Fighter 1//Wizard 1. You would have a d10 HD, +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Will, and +0 Reflex (since that's taking the BAB, Fort, and HD from Fighter and the +2 Will from Wizard), along with all the proficiencies of a Fighter and all the spells (and familiar) of a Wizard. BUT - you're still a 1st level character.

You can change that at higher levels, ending up as, say, a Fighter/Cleric//Wizard/Rogue or whatever, which would be one character that sort of combined a Fighter/Cleric and a Wizard/Rogue into one, taking the best features and abilities at each level.


Basically, it's a variant that's designed for high-powered campaigns, since PCs can end up with better HP, better saves, better BAB, and more abilities than they'd be able to as a single (normal) character.

monty
2008-11-08, 02:22 AM
Otherwise I didn't see any +1 LA rule, it seems kind of minor but then I'm not making a gamebreaking combo here.

Well, what it says is "In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1." It then suggests reducing the CR of your encounters instead if you want to balance XP gains. For a single gestalt character in a normal party, my personal opinion would be to translate this into a +1 LA.

Captain Six
2008-11-08, 02:25 AM
Well, what it says is "In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1." It then suggests reducing the CR of your encounters instead if you want to balance XP gains. For a single gestalt character in a normal party, my personal opinion would be to translate this into a +1 LA.

I might bring that up, but work it more like the unearthed arcana bloodlines where every so often I get another +1 LA. After a while one level really doesn't mean that much.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 02:26 AM
Multiclass penalties are really weird in gestalt. I don't understand them, personally. As for the restriction for monks multiclassing, since you're still taking monk at every level, you never leave it, so you can keep taking more levels.


*hears an angelic chorus*
As a paladin player, that is the best news I've heard in a long time... Been wanting to add some arcane power to my half dragon paladin, or at least some level 7 spell slot potential.

Talic
2008-11-08, 02:29 AM
Basically, you get two entirely seperate classes at each level.

You track each side seperately, and benefits don't stack across. For example, you only take the better sneak attack, base attack, etc.

Example:
{table=header]class 1 | Class 2
Monk | Fighter
Monk | Fighter
Monk | Fighter
Monk | Fighter
Monk | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige Class | Fighter
Prestige 2 | Fighter
Prestige 2 | Fighter
Prestige 2 | Fighter
Prestige 2 | Fighter
Prestige 2 | Fighter[/table]

Very unoptimized. But in this, you would have all the feats of a level 20 fighter... along with the saves of either a level 20 fighter (fort) or A level 5 monk with 15 levels of Prestige class (ref and will).

monty
2008-11-08, 02:30 AM
*hears an angelic chorus*
As a paladin player, that is the best news I've heard in a long time... Been wanting to add some arcane power to my half dragon paladin, or at least some level 7 spell slot potential.

As for half-dragon, if you don't already know, the general consensus here is that LA only applies to one side of the gestalt. A Sorcerer 20 // LA 3 / Paladin 17 would be a pretty respectable gish.

Talic
2008-11-08, 02:36 AM
Then again, you could also go:

Sorceror 6, Dragon Disciple 10, sorceror 7-10 // LA 3 / Paladin 17

Where the LA was half celestial.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 02:39 AM
As for half-dragon, if you don't already know, the general consensus here is that LA only applies to one side of the gestalt. A Sorcerer 20 // LA 3 / Paladin 17 would be a pretty respectable gish.

actually, I was thinking warmage from Complete Arcane so I can keep my breast plate, and would likely put more emphasis on paladin rather than the mage. I just think itd be a fun way to surprise a BBEG on Desecrated ground.

monty
2008-11-08, 02:39 AM
Then again, you could also go:

Sorceror 6, Dragon Disciple 10, sorceror 7-10 // LA 3 / Paladin 17

Where the LA was half celestial.

Yeah, but then you'd only be getting 5th level spells, and he said he wanted "at least some level 7 spell slot potential." Plus, you'd be taking levels in Dragon Disciple.

Edit: and a nitpick, Half-Celestial is LA 4.

monty
2008-11-08, 02:42 AM
actually, I was thinking warmage from Complete Arcane so I can keep my breast plate, and would likely put more emphasis on paladin rather than the mage. I just think itd be a fun way to surprise a BBEG on Desecrated ground.

Warmage is terrible for a gish build. It's almost entirely blasting spells. Bard -> Sublime Chord might be a better choice if you want casting in armor. Also, since you only need 7 bard levels to qualify for SC, you can move the LA to that side and keep full paladin progression instead (you'll get your higher level spells at the same time either way).

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 02:43 AM
actually doing something special with the DM for the half dragon part I thought it would be neat at he agreed

also, bards have to be chaotic and I dont want to spend a feat on devoted performer to fix that

Talic
2008-11-08, 02:55 AM
Ok then.

Fighter 2,Warblade 3,Bloodstorm Blade 10,Master Thrower 5 // LA 3, Sorceror 17

Take the armored caster variant of fighter, get light armor casting. Add in 1 feat, and it's medium.

You've got top notch ranged attack abilities, whether it's spells or throwing. You can make full attacks ranged, power attacked, and treat them as touch attacks. You're still good in melee, and you're a caster 17, with 8th level spells. (wizard would give 9th).

monty
2008-11-08, 03:10 AM
actually doing something special with the DM for the half dragon part I thought it would be neat at he agreed

also, bards have to be chaotic and I dont want to spend a feat on devoted performer to fix that

If being Lawful isn't vital to your character concept, there's always the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures).

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 03:18 AM
If being Lawful isn't vital to your character concept, there's always the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures).

half gold dragon remember? I like the idea of breathing a 30 foot cone of flame from my mouth once (or more with the right feat) a day. plus the nuns with shotguns pic makes me laugh.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-08, 03:23 AM
No, not that I know of, but don't think of it as multiclassing.

If you were, for instance, a gestalt Fighter//Wizard (for some reason), at 1st level you would indeed be a Fighter 1//Wizard 1. You would have a d10 HD, +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Will, and +0 Reflex (since that's taking the BAB, Fort, and HD from Fighter and the +2 Will from Wizard), along with all the proficiencies of a Fighter and all the spells (and familiar) of a Wizard. BUT - you're still a 1st level character.

If you are allowed to fully optimize it's actually one of the most powerful gestalt combinations.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5//Fighter 20 making use of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos gets an extra 10 metamagic feats. Cindy becomes even better, and you get full BAB (help's your ranged touch attacks), a d10 HD (which when combined with Faerie Mysteries Initiate means better HP than most anything), and a good fort save to make up for your dumping Con.

Unlike, say, Factotum//Swordsage or Factotum//Warblade where the abilities complement each other and allow for some innovative combinations of abilities that are quite powerful, wizard//fighter is basically just completely ignoring the fighter half.

Incidentally, Factotum is one of the most powerful classes in gestalt (it synergies with a very large number of classes and provides lots of useful abilities).

monty
2008-11-08, 03:39 AM
half gold dragon remember? I like the idea of breathing a 30 foot cone of flame from my mouth once (or more with the right feat) a day. plus the nuns with shotguns pic makes me laugh.

Brass dragon is CG, and also fire (line rather than cone, though). Would that work?

Looking back, I don't think you ever specified what type it was, actually.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 03:51 AM
Brass dragon is CG, and also fire (line rather than cone, though). Would that work?

Looking back, I don't think you ever specified what type it was, actually.

oops, sorry thought I had, and I just think the cone would be better at crowd control/swarms as well as looking cooler. and since I see paladins as wearing gold colored armor...
also, what does 'gish' mean?

Talic
2008-11-08, 03:53 AM
Don't know what it stands for, but I'll tell you what it means.

Warrior-caster.

Someone who excels in blending magic and might, usually through buff spells, but also through weapon imbued magic attacks.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 03:57 AM
arent paladins already stat and weapon buffers as is? Bulls Might, Holy Weapon, etc?

Talic
2008-11-08, 04:00 AM
To a minor, minor extent.

A more powerful Gish would be a cleric, especially when you add in Divine Metamagic Persist Spell.

Duskblade is another.

Paladin, the spells are an afterthought. There's not a whole lot of quick spells, or long term buffs. And that's where gish power lies.

monty
2008-11-08, 04:19 AM
Really, unless your DM is an alignment Nazi, most of the requirements are more guidelines anyway (Paladin being one obvious exception). A Lawful bard seems plausible enough to me.

Talic
2008-11-08, 04:52 AM
Or a non-evil Assassin?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-08, 04:55 AM
Or a non-evil Assassin?

I made an assassin base class with no alignment restriction (partially for that reason). Did you get the PM I sent you about it?

Satyr
2008-11-08, 06:09 AM
Single class caster classes and Gestalt mundane characters are both a good way to avoid the cheesier asprects of the gestalt rules and make the game more balanced - whereby mundane character include all minor casters like Paladins or Rangers.

Talic
2008-11-08, 06:34 AM
I made an assassin base class with no alignment restriction (partially for that reason). Did you get the PM I sent you about it?

I've replied to all PM's I received.

Further, WotC website has an Avenger PrC that is an exact copy of assassin, but must be good.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-08, 06:44 AM
I've replied to all PM's I received.
Hmm, I'll check again.


Further, WotC website has an Avenger PrC that is an exact copy of assassin, but must be good.

Yeah, which screws the neutral assassins. :smalltongue:

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-08, 06:54 AM
Don't forget monk/psion with the tashalatora feat so that your monk and psychic levels stack.

RTGoodman
2008-11-08, 08:06 AM
Ok then.

Fighter 2,Warblade 3,Bloodstorm Blade 10,Master Thrower 5 // LA 3, Sorceror 17

Take the armored caster variant of fighter, get light armor casting. Add in 1 feat, and it's medium.

Unless you're talking about a different Fighter variant than I'm thinking of, that doesn't work. The one from Complete Mage only lets you cast spells in light armor AND only spells of your Fighter Level + 1 or something like that.

Epinephrine
2008-11-08, 08:30 AM
Giving all the enemies max hitpoints per hit die seems to help balance the higher damage output.

monty
2008-11-08, 01:47 PM
Unless you're talking about a different Fighter variant than I'm thinking of, that doesn't work. The one from Complete Mage only lets you cast spells in light armor AND only spells of your Fighter Level + 1 or something like that.

I don't see a way around the level limit, but I think the feat he's referring to is Armored Casting, which would advance it to medium.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 11:24 PM
Alright, just noticed something, to get the spell I'm after, I have to prepare my spells, not cast spontaneously. The spell is pheonix fire, a sanctified necromancy spell from BoED.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-08, 11:27 PM
You could take Arcane Preparation to let you prepare spells, or you could just get a houserule, since that rule doesn't make any sense.

monty
2008-11-08, 11:33 PM
Stupid rule. Just ask your DM if he'll let you take it as one of your spells known if you take it as a sorcerer; otherwise get it through advanced learning/whatever, if your class of choice has that feature.

Flickerdart
2008-11-08, 11:34 PM
Going a spellcaster on one half means you can run a crazy high LA/RHD race on the other side and still come out pretty strong, seeing as how casters are generally the best classes. This can net you some abilities a class wouldn't have, such as a Golem's immunities to magic (yes, yes, I know a Golem is an awful spellcaster, it's just an example) or make up for the levels you'd lose out on for becoming a Lich.

Kris Strife
2008-11-08, 11:38 PM
This list begins with a list of sanctified spells, which are available to any class that prepares spells rather than casting them spontaneously.
Also: woot! got spontaneously spelled right!
Anyway, I want to do this by RAW to make it harder for DM refusal to be justified. I don't rules lawyer, but if the DM wants proof that its in the books, I'd like to have it.

monty
2008-11-08, 11:48 PM
Going a spellcaster on one half means you can run a crazy high LA/RHD race on the other side and still come out pretty strong, seeing as how casters are generally the best classes. This can net you some abilities a class wouldn't have, such as a Golem's immunities to magic (yes, yes, I know a Golem is an awful spellcaster, it's just an example) or make up for the levels you'd lose out on for becoming a Lich.

Consider a Rakshasa. RHD 7 / Sorcer and/or caster PrCs 13 // LA 7 / Fighter type 13. Full casting, obscene racial abilities, solid saves and BAB, and any other class features you might want to add. Not to mention that outsider HD are pretty good even without the casting.