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celtois
2008-11-08, 01:56 AM
I've been looking for a feat chain or the like to make einhanders a viable option
in d&d. At the moment if you take them you may as well just use them as 2h's.
So my question is do any of you fine folks know of a good system for einhanded combat.

For those that don't know einhanded combat is fighting with a sword in one hand and nothing in the other.

Also the first person to mention the einhander feat from phb2 dies!
I said viable options.

RTGoodman
2008-11-08, 01:58 AM
Well, there's this feat in PHB2 called Einhander... :smallwink:


Actually, there's NOT that much for one-handed fighting in 3.x - there's a TON for TWF and a lot of good stuff for two-handed weapons, but not much for einhanders.

The only thing that comes to my mind right now is (I think) the Duelist PrC that gives some bonuses if you wield a weapon one-handed.

EDIT: And actually, the Duelist just says you have to not be using a shield, so I think technically it works better for two-handed weapon wielders. The only thing you lose is deflect arrows, and that isn't until 9th level... :smallsigh:

celtois
2008-11-08, 02:03 AM
I remember there used to be a feat chain on the homebrew forums but I lost my link to it. If anyone knows where it is. Or has a system they use please share. I tried making one but I quickly decided I'd over powered it :smallsigh:.
so I figured I'd ask around here before I consider trying again. Just to see if anyone has something they use.

Thanks for the response though.

Lyndworm
2008-11-08, 02:28 AM
Have you heard about the Graceful Edge feat? It requires BAB+1, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus with the chosen One-Handed Slashing weapon.

"When fighting with the chosen weapon in your primary hand and no weapon or shield in your off-hand, receive the following benefits:
a) treat the chosen weapon as ‘Light’ (i.e., Weapon Finesse applies to it);
b) receive a +1 Shield bonus to AC; and
c) if Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, receive a +2 Shield bonus to AC."

It's not great, but it could help.

Zack

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-08, 02:52 AM
Where's that feat from, Lyndworm?

The_Snark
2008-11-08, 03:21 AM
It's tricky to do. Your best bet is to focus on increasing your AC, since that's the one thing most one-handed abilities tend to be geared towards (and damage-increasing options, like Power Attack and Sneak Attack, are all much more effective with two weapons or two-handed weapons). Unfortunately, increasing your AC is often seen as unhelpful in a party situation; it's not nearly as useless as the CharOp boards would have you think, but it's not a terribly strong option either.

A decent fencer-style build would probably begin in fighter or rogue and go into Duelist. Weapon Finesse is an obvious stylistic choice and good if you plan on sacrificing damage potential in exchange for incredibly high AC, but not actually at all essential; a Strength-based weapon like a longsword would give you slightly higher damage. Combat Expertise and Improved Feint are likewise possible choices, but also not essential. Improved Disarm fits flavor nicely, but unless you're playing against mostly humanoid opponents is not very good. (Race-specific, campaign-specific note: the Races of Eberron book contains a kalashtar racial feat that gives significant bonuses to Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively, such as gaining an insight bonus on your next attack roll equal to the penalty you took on attack rolls this turn.) The duelist's Elaborate Parry ability is quite good; once you have it, you'll want to be using it more or less every round. Ironically, that makes other feats that improve your ability to fight defensively good choices, including... you guessed it... Einhander. :smallamused:

By that level, of course, enemies are laughing at your 1d6+5 damage (or whatever it happens to be). I'd actually recommend taking Improved Critical, and then following it up with Staggering Critical (Drow of the Underdark). Boost your critical-confirming rolls any way you can, and then load a bunch of those nasty enhancements that only activate on critical hits on: Prismatic Burst, Cursespewing, Enervating, Heavenly Burst, Doom Burst, Weakening, Enfeebling... the Magic Item Compendium (all of those are from that book, except Enfeebling, which is from the Book of Exalted Deeds) is full of much more interesting enchantments than the elemental burst enchantments, which are to be avoided.

Alternatively, a swashbuckler/rogue with the Daring Outlaw feat will work, and will probably be less complex, too. It would be a much better build if it used Two-weapon Fighting, but built well it will be decent.

Alternatively alternatively, a swordsage from Tome of Battle will do just fine with the right maneuvers. They don't use shields anyway, and many strikes only let you attack once; those are also the strikes that tend to boost your damage or give you special effects, making your weapon's base damage rather less important. It's probably optimal to use a Shadow Hand weapon (shortsword fits pretty well) and pick up Weapon Finesse and Shadow Hand, but I've seen a swordsage who used a rapier instead.

The advice about criticals could apply to any of the three builds, if you don't have many feats to occupy your time at higher levels and have a bit of wealth to spare (and hopefully a friendly magician to cast Greater Magic Weapon for you).

Generally, it takes a lot more work to make a one-handed fighter good, especially if you're looking to have it resemble any kind of real-world fighting style (my suggestions are arranged from most accurate/least powerful to least accurate/most powerful). As someone who's dabbled in fencing, I can tell you that I wouldn't want to be up against a man in full plate, longsword, and shield while armed with only a rapier... much less fight a dragon with only that.

paddyfool
2008-11-08, 06:15 AM
Here's how to do it with Core stuff, and without a feat chain: don't be too strict about keeping your off-hand "empty".

At lower levels, a buckler would leave your hand free without giving you the -1 to hit it would a THF, and at higher levels, a dancing shield would be your friend, just as for a TWF or THF build. You don't have to think of the buckler as the usual shape; something like a high-quality bit of armor on your off fore-arm can be imagined as working in a vaguely similar way, and you can dispense with any skill penalties and encumberment easily by getting a masterwork darkwood one. Remember, you don't just lose AC from going without a shield; there's also the matter of a potentially rather useful item slot for other effects.

Also, you want to take advantage of your free off-hand. There are four main ways to do that that I can think of: 1) a handy stash of wands (even with light armor, your arcane spell failure will be pretty low); equally, spellcasting if your build allows 2) the flexibility to switch to a two-handed grip when you need to (e.g. for Power Attack vs something with high DR), 3) manipulating the battlefield (overturning braziers, grabbing the plot point, dragging prone party members out of danger... all very fun, but somewhat dependent on a flexible DM) and 4) unarmed combat feats. In fact, if it's in keeping with the character you want to play, you could take a level dip in Monk to get Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (or Improved Grapple, if you prefer, but it seems less fitting somehow), improved unarmed damage and three good saves. The Wis bonus to AC might also be handy, if you felt like being unarmored, although admittedly at higher levels you could get that more easily from Monk's Belt.

Precision damage, such as the Rogue's Sneak Attack, improved Crits, or, non-Core, various Int bonuses to damage, is nice when it works, but don't get too dependent on it - it'll let you down often enough to be quite frustrating. (Undead, Constructs, Fortified Armor etc.)

Finally, take some ranks in Tumble to take advantage of the higher mobility that many lightly-armored builds of this kind would have. And that's about all I can think of, for now. Have fun!

Tengu_temp
2008-11-08, 09:25 AM
I'd just rule that as long as you hold nothing in your off-hand, you count as wielding your main hand weapon in two hands. Unless it can only be held in one hand, of course.

Riffington
2008-11-08, 09:39 AM
As someone who's dabbled in fencing, I can tell you that I wouldn't want to be up against a man in full plate, longsword, and shield while armed with only a rapier... much less fight a dragon with only that.

If it weren't against the rules of fencing, would you keep your off-hand empty in a match, or would you put a shield or parrying dagger in it?

Morty
2008-11-08, 09:46 AM
As someone who's dabbled in fencing, I can tell you that I wouldn't want to be up against a man in full plate, longsword, and shield while armed with only a rapier... much less fight a dragon with only that.

When talking about D&D, "it wouldn't work in real world" isn't really a problem.

Hal
2008-11-08, 09:52 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Snowflake Wardance yet.

celtois
2008-11-08, 12:06 PM
Thank you all for your responses they really show how fighting with 1 hand can be viable option. Now I have another question for you all is there anything you can do for a more heavily armoured fighter. Or is fighting einhanded a light armor only thing in d&d?

jcsw
2008-11-08, 12:12 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Snowflake Wardance yet.

IIRC, that's because it can be used with two weapons.

Fishy
2008-11-08, 12:33 PM
Thank you all for your responses they really show how fighting with 1 hand can be viable option. Now I have another question for you all is there anything you can do for a more heavily armoured fighter. Or is fighting einhanded a light armor only thing in d&d?

I can't think of anything, offhand. (Pun not intended, but it can stay). But really, if you were going to wear heavy armor, why *wouldn't* you carry a shield?

For my hypothetical Duelist, I've been thinking about Swashbuckler/Monk, using the Kung Fu Genius feat. You end up with Int to damage, Dex to attack and Int to AC twice, before you start Elaborately Parrying. The downside, of course, is that if you Min/Max too hard and put nothing in strength at all, you kind of suck until you take Swashbuckler 3 and Monk 1, and it takes a while for the good Duelist stuff to kick in.

I'd go with either Swashbuckler 5/Monk 2, for the better hit die and another random +1 dodge bonus, or Swashbuckler 3/Monk 4, for the better saves and Fast Movement.

celtois
2008-11-08, 01:19 PM
Okay given the lack of really good feats and the like for einhanded combat, I'll work on my own feat chain. Once its complete I'll put it in this thread and in the homebrew boards.

Keld Denar
2008-11-08, 04:20 PM
IIRC, that's because it can be used with two weapons.

Debatable at best.


Benefit: By expending one of your daily uses of bardic music, you may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action, and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand. This bonus...

Weapon(singular) you wield in one hand (singular). Makes no mention of each hand, or weapons. Thus, debatable, at best. Chock it up to poor game design, but reading RAW as either way is possible, so saying that you absolutely can or can't isn't accurate. FWIW, all DMs I play with rule that its 1 weapon in 1 hand, and they are pretty strict on RAW adherance.

A Bard20 with SWFD, a Crystal Echoblade, Dragonfire Inspiration, and the whole opimized IC gig would do pretty well as an Einhander style fighter. Does good damage with a weapon in 1 hand, and is Cha driven. Hmmm, too bad bards don't get Dismissal on their spell list, because then you could dip Sacred Exorcist and get Divine Might for even more cha based damage to your 1handed attack.

The_Snark
2008-11-08, 05:11 PM
If it weren't against the rules of fencing, would you keep your off-hand empty in a match, or would you put a shield or parrying dagger in it?

I'm not sure; I'd have to learn how to fight that way. The off hand is kept behind the body while fencing, and used as a counterweight for lunging and recovering; in order to use that hand, I'd have to be using a different stance, which would honestly probably mean learning a whole new fighting style. I couldn't tell you whether that style would work well against another fencer or not. There were duels that took place with a sword and a parrying dagger, so there are presumably styles of fighting that do teach you to fight that way.

A largish shield would be pretty easy to use to defend oneself, and would definitely be cheating (especially in foil), but it would also seriously mess up my attempts at hitting people unless I learned to work with it. Evidently, fencing does not make you proficient with shields.


When talking about D&D, "it wouldn't work in real world" isn't really a problem.

I know. D&D designers do sometimes throw in nods to realism, though, and I think this style's relative weakness is one of them. It's just hard to imagine a person with a rapier slaying giant monsters.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-08, 05:20 PM
Duskblades manage fine with einhanding it. Even they do better THW, but with all the extra damage they can tack on, it's not a huge loss.

Elusive Target works for einhanding as well.

zaei
2008-11-08, 05:21 PM
Debatable at best.

Weapon(singular) you wield in one hand (singular). Makes no mention of each hand, or weapons. Thus, debatable, at best. Chock it up to poor game design, but reading RAW as either way is possible, so saying that you absolutely can or can't isn't accurate. FWIW, all DMs I play with rule that its 1 weapon in 1 hand, and they are pretty strict on RAW adherance.
Saying this is debatable at best is misleading. The wording on the feat is completely ambiguous.

I would personally read it as allowing you to apply the bonus to any weapon you wield in one hand (so you apply the bonus to the weapon you are wielding in your main hand, and the weapon you are wielding in your off hand, as both of them are a weapon wielded in one hand). I don't know if I would DM it that way, but that's how I read it.

Epinephrine
2008-11-08, 06:40 PM
Agree with the Snark - the point of fighting with one hand is the small target area you present. Putting a weapon in your other hand would be a big adjustment, since you have a completely different stance.

Ellisthion
2008-11-08, 11:42 PM
I played quite a fun one-handed duelist a while back. It was a core-only game, so I went Fighter/Wizard/Duelist. Sorcerer would give you more spells, but I went Wizard for roleplaying reasons and the Int synergy with Duelist. By casting Shield and Mage Armour, and fighting Defensively, I got quite a respectable AC (with some magical equipment, I had over 32 by level 10 or so).

Blind Fighting is a must for something like this, because an otherwise an invisible enemy negates most of your bonuses. Also, combine Tumble with Duelist + Mobility to become basically immune to AoOs. Use your mobility to get into flanking positions with the Rogue.

The Einhander feat in PH2 works really well in conjunction with this. If you're worried about damage, there's a feat in... um... Complete Adventurer, I think, which gives +d6 damage whilst fighting defensively, but you'll probably be pressed for feats if you're going Duelist.

I took Weapon Focus, Spec, and Impr. Crit for Rapier, but the lame amount of damage I was doing would make me advise not doing so.

monty
2008-11-08, 11:52 PM
The Einhander feat in PH2

Technically, you're not the first person to mention it, so I guess you don't die.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-11-09, 04:34 AM
Debatable at best.

Weapon(singular) you wield in one hand (singular). Makes no mention of each hand, or weapons.English grammar says that it can be used with more than one weapon. Then again, that's seldom relevant to D&D rules discussion.

"any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand". If you're two weapon fighting, you're wielding a slashing melee weapon in one hand, and you're wielding a slashing melee weapon in in one (other) hand. The feat would apply to both. Now, we can argue semantics and intent all day, I'm just trying to parse the sentence.

celtois
2008-11-09, 11:28 PM
I've posted my newly created feats for einhanders in the homebrew forum

link:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96149

enjoy

Ellisthion
2008-11-09, 11:57 PM
Technically, you're not the first person to mention it, so I guess you don't die.

Heh, I did notice that before I posted it. Safety in technicalities :smallwink:

SoD
2008-11-10, 12:10 AM
Well, for a +2 sheild bonus (at the cost of 3 feats) take TWF, TWD and imp TWD, beforehand convincing your DM that using a sword in one hand and nothing else is duel-weilding a sword and an unarmed strike. I mean, you get your bonus from TWD when weilding 2 weapons, even if you only fight with the one.

But is it really worth a +2 AC for 3 feats? No? Thought not.

celtois
2008-11-10, 12:14 AM
Thats where you look at my feats ......then you don't need to do stuff like that
cause I made feats just for einhanders!

see them here

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96149

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-10, 03:16 AM
About Einhanded Combat feats, there are few feats even in dungeon magazine compendium, take a look.

IMO, you should multiclass combining fighter rogue and swashbuckler. Remember the duelist prestige class and the telling blow feat from PHII.

You could combine the one hand feats with the cloack combat feats in PHII, EPH and Dragon magazine compendium to add a style to your PC. Not so strong but interesting.

celtois
2008-11-10, 05:12 AM
Its times likes these I wish I had the dragon or dungeon magazine :(

Doberler
2008-11-10, 02:49 PM
You can buy Dungeon and Dragon Magazine PDF's straight from the Paizo Website. Also, Scribd.com has some of the issues available there for free.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-10, 07:27 PM
You can buy Dungeon and Dragon Magazine PDF's straight from the Paizo Website. Also, ---.com has some of the issues available there for free.FYI, you may want to delete that. This site has rules about mentioning piracy, especially mentioning specific websites.

Kaiyanwang
2008-11-11, 02:58 AM
To the OP: Just remembered now that even in Drow of the Underdark you can find good things for einhanded combat, directly or not:

-You can find feats linked to agile combat

-You can find feats good with high chance crit weapons like the Rapier (target slowed in a crit, no save... not bad at all :smallwink:)

-You can find alternative class features for Fighter and Swashbuckler that can be useful.

Harp
2008-11-11, 04:25 AM
You have some options when fighting with a single weapon that I am aware of, but most of them are only worthwhile when fighting other humanoids or as a contigency when a shield or favored weapon is lost/destroyed. Therefore, I can't suggest a build because your attentions are better focused elsewhere. That said, I'll offer what strategies I can.

Weapon - Einhanding constantly with the strategies below is not really an effective option, and the character should be dual-wielding or two-handing as they are able. The best weapon for a two-handed strategy when the others below can't be employed is a Dwarven Waraxe, followed by the Warhammer or Morningstar as weapon proficiencies allow.

Disarm - You can disarm opponents with an opposed attack roll, but at a -4 penalty. The difference is that while all weapons carry the option of a disarm (most with less penalty or even a bonus) managing it unarmed means you claim the object taken. Also keep in mind that if the object targeted isn't a weapon the defender takes a -4 penalty as well. You can use this to snatch items off the person of an opponent in combat as well, and for things hanging off a belt or otherwise poorly secured you get a +4 bonus on the attack roll. If the character also has Two-Weapon Fighting, wielding a light weapon normally might mean they are often in a position to effectively dual-wield after disarming an opponent.

Trip - Ultimately, you are better off using a weapon that has the ability to trip opponents, but you can use your empty hand to manage the same. If you succeed an unarmed touch attack you make a strength roll opposed by a strength or dexterity roll (whichever is higher). Unfortunately, unarmed trip attempts allow your opponent the opportunity to trip you if you fail. The upside is that trip attempts can be made against opponents that do not typically rely on equipment to varying degrees of success, dependant mostly on their size.

Stunning Fist- A rather expensive feat to purchase in comparison to taking a single level of Monk, this ability allows you to alternatively force your opponents to make Fortitude saves or be stunned. The number of times you can attempt it and the save DC scale roughly to your level, so the ability does not become less useful as you level.

Deflect Arrows - One of the requirements of this feat is that a hand must be free. It negates a single ranged attack per round, but is more of a feature for an einhander. I wouldn't normally bother taking the feat in place of another, only benefit from it if I had a few monk levels in the build already for other goodies.

True Strike Wand/Power Attack- Although not technically einhanding, this combination will let you have a +15 to hit and an additional +5 to damage, certainly nothing to smirk at when dealing with high AC opponents. Although builds that let you Still or Quicken Spell True Strike might be more economic or useful, wanding it has the benefit of ignoring the spell failure on your armor without burning all your slots. You will need to have some UMD (possibly the attunement feat that lets you use a single item without UMD checks), or a level in wizard or sorcerer. As UMD gives you more options for other wands and items, I'd say go that route. Alternatively, Color Spray, Invisibility, Hold Person, and even Greater Invisibility are effective wand alternatives relying on the same manuever (all of which offer characters able to perform sneak attacks the opportunity to do so).

Hope that helps.

Leon
2008-11-11, 04:57 AM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Thin Blade
If your going to use one weapon may as well make it a good weapon

Alejandro
2009-07-13, 01:30 PM
I hope it is not bad form to resurrect an old thread, but I wanted to post in this as I currently play an "einhander" character and do just fine.

Please keep in mind that I am not a professional min maxer or munchkin and I am more interested in having fun with a character concept, as is the rest of the group. However, I do try to make a build "good enough."

I'm currently 9th level, about to make 10th. I am a 4th lvl Rogue/3rd lvl Swashbuckler/2nd lvl Duelist. My feats are:

Weapon Finesse (free from Swashbuckler)
Dodge
Mobility
Daring Outlaw
Einhander
Exotic Proficiency: Whip

I also got or soon will have the skill tricks (Complete Scoundrel) Spot the Weak Point, Acrobatic Backstab, Group Fake-out, Nimble Stand, and Whip Climber.

I have found this to work quite well for what I wanted. In melee terms, when I fight defensively, I get +5 AC (2 from fighting defensively, 2 from Einhander, and 1 from having at least 5 ranks in Tumble) and once I earn enough Duelist levels to use the Elaborate Parry ability, that will go up to at least +12 AC. There's also the Duelist ability to add 1 point of your Intelligence modifier to your AC per Duelist level you have, and I have an 18 INT. This goes well with the Swashbuckler's ability to add INT to their damage. When combined with a high DEX and the right protective items (rings of protection, bracers, etc) you can have an AC just as good as an armor using character.

If I need to keep my distance, the whip dagger and the rapier are basically interchangeable as far as all these abilities are concerned (made sure my GM would allow it) so I can stay 15' away if I need to. This is handy for really nasty creatures, especially ones with reach and horrible full attack combos. Having the whip handy has also been great for disarming enemies (even though I don't have Improved Disarm) and the Whip Climber skill trick is great when I need to pull a Zorro/Indiana Jones and get out of a tight spot.

The other skill tricks are meant to always give me an option, whether it's multiple enemies, needing to make someone flat footed, or getting through tough armor. Besides, it's fun to be able to flip over or roll under a foe and then skewer them, or pick out the chink in their armor for a nasty hit (especially if it's going to be a sneak attack hit.)

As for damage, I do alright. 1d6 from the rapier, 1d6 from acid (the rapier is acidic, which was done intentionally after I realized I was going to encounter a lot of things vulnerable to acid) plus STR and INT bonuses. Since I am almost always setting up for sneak attacks, either by flanking with another PC or using a skill trick or feint, 4d6 more. Once I take the Deadly Defense feat, I'll add another 1d6 while fighting defensively (which I almost always am) and once I have another few Duelist levels, the precise strike ability kicks in for another 1d6. 8d6 plus STR and INT isn't a bad weapon damage at all. Sure, there are times when I won't be as effective (enemies immune to critical hits) but that's what other party members are for, it's a group effort.