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Desilva
2008-11-08, 04:42 AM
I'm an enchanter wizard playing in 3.5 with some friends and the party recently got into an encounter with some mindless undead, against whom my control-based wizard was all but worthless.

My character and I both knew from the beginning that constructs and undead are the weakness of compulsion-based magic, but now we wonder if there's some way for a relatively low-level wizard to control those kinds of foes. Not "control" them, as a Suggestion or a Dominate spell would; more like crowd control, such as Hold Person, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or Daze.

I can't just make a new spell that binds undead, because that would pretty clearly fall under Necromancy, which I chose as one of my banned schools.

So I was thinking about a line of Abjuration spells that targets and binds the magic that animates undead, effectively keeping them controlled without actually targeting them.

My wizard wouldn't get all his bonuses to Enchantment spells (Spell Focus etc), but at least he will have found a way to partially cover his greatest weakness, and be able to do his job when encountered by undead.

Or is there some existing way for an enchanter wizard to control undead that I couldn't find when I was researching the problem?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-08, 05:05 AM
Song of the Dead (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Song_of_the_Dead,all) works for intelligent undead. Mindless undead are completely immune to all mind effecting stuff. Illusions are great for crowd control against mindless monsters though.

Mindless means no initiative, no ability to notice deception, no ability to plan, and generally can be deceived at whim. Seriously, the illusion of ground over a river and your party running across is likely to lead to every mindless undead just running straight into the river, or off a cliff, etc.

BobVosh
2008-11-08, 05:11 AM
Grease, web, and similiar effects that target reflex tend to work well on undead. Fort is generally bad, and will is immune, or pointless (I'm sure there are a few exceptions.) Low level is nice start but an actual level is better for helping.

Talic
2008-11-08, 06:36 AM
Second illusion. As it tends to complement enchantment well, I highly suggest it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-08, 06:37 AM
Chill Touch is a 1st level Wizard spell that's extremely effective for crowd controlling undead. Command Undead is a 2nd level Wizard spell that does the same thing that your Enchantments do to other creatures. Glitterdust can blind undead and constructs, Web can snare them up. The spell Blinding Breath is a Reflex save-or-blind, which also works on undead and constructs, use the spell Dragon Breath or the feat Draconic Breath to use it, or even get Improved Familiar for a Hellhound or Dragon Familiar and use it with Share Spells. Ray of Flame can end up causing a lot of damage to an undead since if caught on fire they won't try to extinguish it and will continue taking damage. Ray of Ice is a decent low level, single target damage/snare spell for when Web would do more harm than good.

Harp
2008-11-12, 12:26 AM
I can't just make a new spell that binds undead, because that would pretty clearly fall under Necromancy, which I chose as one of my banned schools.

So I was thinking about a line of Abjuration spells that targets and binds the magic that animates undead, effectively keeping them controlled without actually targeting them.

My wizard wouldn't get all his bonuses to Enchantment spells (Spell Focus etc), but at least he will have found a way to partially cover his greatest weakness, and be able to do his job when encountered by undead.

Or is there some existing way for an enchanter wizard to control undead that I couldn't find when I was researching the problem?

You banned Necro on an enchanter? Ugh... I don't envy your position, but what campaign hasn't had undead in it? Necromancery has the best options for dealing with undead, so I'm not surprised you're asking for advice. :smalltongue:

Your probably better off focusing on spells that deal damage rather than goof them up, as the immunities on even zombies are pretty numerous. Just about any evocation is your friend.

If you're still more interested in blocking them up, conjuration is your friend. 0 Intelligence means mindless undead go after the closest living thing they percieve, so blocking LoS (Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Darkness, etc.) pretty effectively turns them off, but this is more a matter of opinion and not necessarily the style of your DM. Moreover, if a master creature with intelligence is around their adaptation improves somewhat. You can still gum them up with Grease and Web regardless of how your DM interprets their ability score. Illusions should also work, but again, its contingent on your DM's interpretation.

Don't ignore the transmutation school entirely as well. While your options for dealing with undead may be limited, there's plenty of things here you can use to your benefit. Exp. Retreat, Water-walking, Spiderclimb, and Fly, all give you the ability to put ground between you and your assailants, which means in the worst case scenario you can just use your crossbow a bit. Also keep in mind that despite the fact Animate Rope can only be used against a single opponent and it has a fairly limited range (tossing the rope at a range increment of 10), hardly anyone's immune to getting tied up and spell resistance doesn't apply.

Probably the best point that's been brought up so far is that Glitterdust can be used to blind undead. This is a seriously underrated spell, one that is not only offensive but acts as a contingency against an invisible or stealthy opponent. If you've got the coin and can deal with the fact it will only last for three rounds, I'd suggest just getting a wand of it.

AslanCross
2008-11-12, 05:11 PM
Black tentacles works well for a Conjuration control spell. Since undead have a low BAB, they tend to not have a good grapple score unless their Strength is very high (or they're large).