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Ponce
2008-11-08, 11:34 PM
Iron Heart Surge. You've all seen it. It can put out the sun. But it can't end a Hold Person effect.

If you were to rewrite IHS with all the correct rule jargon in proper form, what would it look like to you? What measure of power would you grant it?

monty
2008-11-08, 11:51 PM
I don't want to take the mental effort to write it out properly, but I'd basically make it a more powerful but personal-range Dispel Magic.

Townopolis
2008-11-08, 11:53 PM
Choose a spell that is currently affecting you. You are not subject to that spells effect for its duration. You may also use this ability to remove disease, poison, ability drain, level drain, or ability damage, but all effects removed or negated must come from the same source. Initiating this maneuver is a purely mental action and may be activated while unable to move or not in direct control of your own actions. You must still be able to take actions to initiate this maneuver.

Douglas
2008-11-08, 11:58 PM
It can put out the sun.
No, it can't. The sun is not a spell, effect, or condition.

monty
2008-11-09, 12:00 AM
No, it can't. The sun is not a spell, effect, or condition.

I keep trying to tell people this. Even if you can somehow justify it as that, it doesn't have a duration.

IRON HEART SURGE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Ellisthion
2008-11-09, 12:03 AM
If you're a Drow in the sun, and the sun is impairing you... cheese ++.

As DM, I was annoyed that by the wording you can remove negative levels. I mean, Restoration, which can also do that, requires 100 gp in diamond dust.

monty
2008-11-09, 12:06 AM
If you're a Drow in the sun, and the sun is impairing you... cheese ++.

First of all, the sun itself is not a spell, effect, or other condition. Even if you could somehow do something, it wouldn't be destroying the sun. Second, show me where the duration for the effect is stated. Unless it has a duration of "1 or more rounds," it's not a valid target.

Douglas
2008-11-09, 12:10 AM
If you're a Drow in the sun, and the sun is impairing you... cheese ++.
You might, with a generous DM, be able to remove the dazzled condition from yourself. This would have no effect whatsoever on the sun.

Doomsy
2008-11-09, 12:23 AM
You're assuming the sun in D&D is a ball of flaming gas. Not the everburning spirits of every deity who ever pissed someone really big off. Or something even more fun.

monty
2008-11-09, 12:27 AM
You're assuming the sun in D&D is a ball of flaming gas. Not the everburning spirits of every deity who ever pissed someone really big off. Or something even more fun.

Irrelevant. It's still not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-09, 12:28 AM
I keep trying to tell people this. Even if you can somehow justify it as that, it doesn't have a duration.

IRON HEART SURGE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

The sun totally has a duration. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution) Using Iron Heart Surge to put out the sun doesn't violate RAW any more than the Commoner Railgun does.

FMArthur
2008-11-09, 12:35 AM
Even if the Sun lasts infinitely in the illogical D&D-verse, it still exists for a duration of infinite.

Jack Zander
2008-11-09, 12:36 AM
The sun totally has a duration. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution) Using Iron Heart Surge to put out the sun doesn't violate RAW any more than the Commoner Railgun does.

Poor comparison. The commoner railgun still only deals 1d6 + strength in damage.


Even if the Sun lasts infinitely in the illogical D&D-verse, it still exists for a duration of infinite.

Sure, and the barbarian attacking me is dealing negative effects to me, so I'll wink him out of existence for a little bit. He has a limited duration before he dies after all.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-09, 12:49 AM
Sure, and the barbarian attacking me is dealing negative effects to me, so I'll wink him out of existence for a little bit. He has a limited duration before he dies after all.

Hm. Hard to say. Technically it's his attacks, which are instantaneous effects, which are hurting you. But if you say that it's him or his axe that's really doing it, by RAW you can take him out!
OK, I'm being sarcastic now.

FMArthur
2008-11-09, 12:51 AM
Oh, those poor Monks.

Douglas
2008-11-09, 01:19 AM
Poor comparison. The commoner railgun still only deals 1d6 + strength in damage.
With a range increment of 10', maximum range of 50', a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and requires a full round action by the last commoner in line. Assuming we're using the standard quarterstaff as the projectile, that is.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-09, 01:32 AM
With a range increment of 10', maximum range of 50', a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and requires a full round action by the last commoner in line. Assuming we're using the standard quarterstaff as the projectile, that is.

That's if the last commoner actually throws it. The entire idea is that if he just lets go of it, it'll have enough momentum to go at a ludicrously high speed.

Quellian-dyrae
2008-11-09, 01:42 AM
Well I've been kind of meaning to add this to my official house rules list rather than just judgment calling it. So here goes:

You may end a single chosen effect or condition that is currently affecting you. The effect must have a non-instantaneous duration, and either allow a Fortitude save, a Will save, or Spell Resistance to avoid the initial stage of the effect. You may use this maneuver even if you cannot move, and even if you are not in control of your actions. You can use this maneuver as a free action if you have taken no other actions on your turn, but doing so automatically ends your turn.

If the condition is the result of a spell, ability, or effect that affects multiple targets or an area, you only end it for yourself. You only end the condition that is currently active upon you; you gain no immunity to further exposure, and if you remain in the affected area, you might suffer the condition anew.

Douglas
2008-11-09, 02:10 AM
That's if the last commoner actually throws it. The entire idea is that if he just lets go of it, it'll have enough momentum to go at a ludicrously high speed.
Right, now where in the rules of D&D in this concept of "momentum" mentioned and (especially) defined? If you're going to try to break the system with a crazy rules abuse, you need official rules for the entire abuse.

monty
2008-11-09, 03:38 AM
"Duration" in D&D has a very specific meaning. Just because it exists in time does not mean that it has a duration. Also, I still fail to see how the sun qualifies as a "spell, effect, or other condition."

jcsw
2008-11-09, 09:30 AM
Sorry, was it Be Off Topic Day? I must have missed the memo.

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart
maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

You may initiate this maneuver even if you are under some sort of effect which does not allow you to take actions, unless you have the Dead Status Condition.

When you initiate this maneuver, you may ignore any one status effect, spell, spell-like or supernatural ability with a duration longer than instantaneous which is currently affecting you.

In addition, you gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Ponce
2008-11-09, 01:26 PM
Sorry, was it Be Off Topic Day? I must have missed the memo.

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart
maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

You may initiate this maneuver even if you are under some sort of effect which does not allow you to take actions, unless you have the Dead Status Condition.

When you initiate this maneuver, you may ignore any one status effect, spell, spell-like or supernatural ability with a duration longer than instantaneous which is currently affecting you.

In addition, you gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

This one looks pretty elegant. I think I might also restrict it to those targets whose duration is shorter than Permanent.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Yeygresh
2008-11-09, 01:44 PM
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9995/ironheartsurgetr2.png

Seemed appropriate.

monty
2008-11-09, 02:16 PM
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9995/ironheartsurgetr2.png

Seemed appropriate.

Thread over. You win.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-09, 03:02 PM
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
...
You may initiate this maneuver even if you are under some sort of effect which does not allow you to take actions, unless you have the Dead Status Condition.

Being unconscious and using maneuvers seems a little bit out there....

BRC
2008-11-09, 03:06 PM
Right, now where in the rules of D&D in this concept of "momentum" mentioned and (especially) defined? If you're going to try to break the system with a crazy rules abuse, you need official rules for the entire abuse.

The commoner railgun is the result of taking certain bits of the Rules of Dnd and the Laws of physics, while ignoring all the others. It only works if you assume reality is a sort of Buffet, where you can take some things and ignore others.

The Dnd Rules say that, provided people are standing in a line, you can pass something from one end to the other in six seconds, no matter how long the line is. you could have a line six thousand miles long and it would only take six seconds to pass somthing from one end to the others
Physics says that if something moves from one point to another, it builds up speed. If something moves six thousand miles in six seconds, it's moving a thousand miles a second, and will keep moving very very quickly.

Of course, this only works if you don't think about the fact that, once you start bringing in real physics, you must bring in the fact that a line of people can't pass a quarterstaff six thousand miles in six seconds.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-09, 10:15 PM
Question: Since when is Dead a status condition? And why does a 5th level ability negate petrification, an effect that normally requires a 7th level spell and a Fort save to bypass?

Some effects should not be allowed to be ended by IHS. This much I agree with you on. But some effects are not labeled or clear on what the hell happens (actual petrification is irreversable and penetrates to the core of the substance, but takes eons).

I recomend removing the whole "Dead" clause. A dead character can't take the mental action required, seeing as he no longer has his brain to do so. Also, mention a few lists of things that are unaffected by this, such as petrification.

jcsw
2008-11-09, 11:39 PM
Well, Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) IS a status condition, actually.

As for petrification, perhaps just tack on a duration at which you can ignore the conditions? Like "Until the end of the Encounter" or "Four Rounds" or something... So you'd still counter the "no actions" aspect of petrification, but not the "have to pay for a cure or have a cleric around to cure it" aspect.

I find that countering the "No Actions" part of statuses is one thing which is inherent in the Intention of IHS, so I think that should stay.

Ponce
2008-11-09, 11:52 PM
Break enchantment is a 5th level spell and can cure petrification among other things. On one creature per level.

IHS would only work on yourself. Seems fair enough.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-11-10, 12:43 AM
As written it still does not make sense that it requires a standard action and the description allows you to use it even when you do not have the ability to take a standard action.

Ponce
2008-11-10, 01:19 AM
Perhaps it should be a free action, and it can only be used if you do not take any other action in that round, other than more free actions.

monty
2008-11-10, 01:25 AM
Unless I missed one, IHS is the only maneuver in the book that doesn't have a type (strike, boost, etc.). Is this meaningful?

Roderick_BR
2008-11-10, 10:18 AM
If you're a Drow in the sun, and the sun is impairing you... cheese ++.

As DM, I was annoyed that by the wording you can remove negative levels. I mean, Restoration, which can also do that, requires 100 gp in diamond dust.
It doesn't have a duration, so it doesn't qualify. Walking away from it doesn't count as ending a duration (walking underground, or waiting the night arrive, as the sun is just moving to the other side of the world).

About death... well, maybe you could shrug off death effects, but dying from HP loss... well, you can use IHS.... but you still doesn't have enough HP to stay alive, so you remain dead. Or die again.

Yes, putting it as a free action, that makes you stunned until the end of that turn seens like the best fix. By making it a free action, it already makes it work on things like Hold Person