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Proven_Paradox
2008-11-09, 03:47 PM
So, I'll probably be playing a paladin of freedom in an upcoming game. As we all know, WotC forgot to finish the paladin class, and so progressing past level 5 in said class strikes me as a bad idea. This can be solved by going with a PrC from level 6 on. Thing is... I'm having a very difficult time finding PrCs that suit the character that aren't lawful only.

Booklist is as follows:
PHB 1&2
DMG 1&2
Arms & Equipment Guide
Book of Exalted Deeds
Cityscape
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Dungeonscape
Magic Item Compendium
Monster Manuals 1-5
Races of Destiny
Races of Stone
Races of Wild
Spell Compendium

I've looked through the completes. Pious Templar looked like my way out--until I noted that the deity I'm choosing has quarterstaff for her favored weapon. Right now I intend to take a glaive into battle... If I have to I'll take weapon focus (quarterstaff) and just use a glaive anyway (if the DM allows it--they may not, since the class's description says they use the deity's favored weapon).

Still. If there are some other options, I'd like to look at them. I absolutely must have full BAB, and anything that has class features that don't work in heavy armor is out. I'd prefer at least d10 HD, but I could be convinced to go to d8 if the rest of the class is good. I'd like classes that bring my charisma into play, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that. Race is human, alignment is chaotic good. What are my options?

ocato
2008-11-09, 04:09 PM
I slightly adjusted a Grey Guard and used it with Paladin of Freedom for an NPC once. Worked pretty well. Had I done the character up with bells and whistles, Snap Kick and Improved Unarmed Strike meant he could power attack you with a two-hander and then kick you, adding lay on hands as damage. Made a very interesting vigilante style character.

monty
2008-11-09, 04:12 PM
Take a regular paladin prestige class, refluff it, and get rid of the alignment restriction. If your DM's not a jerk, it should work fine.

RTGoodman
2008-11-09, 04:17 PM
I agree with ocato - I think Grey Guard could work out pretty well. I know everyone apparently hates the class, but I like a lot of the abilities and think it could be cool.

(Also, I'm taking bets on how long it'll be before someone suggests ToB stuff despite it not being on the list of available/allowed sources...:smallwink:)

Kris Strife
2008-11-09, 04:21 PM
Holy Liberators from CD?

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-09, 04:25 PM
I've already asked for the ToB to be allowed; the DM shot that down. Made me quite sad, but so it goes.

I'm wanting to find classes that don't require adjusting if I can. If I can't, I'll ask about adjusting other classes--Grey Guard may not work though; I doubt the goddess that this character will be serving would approve. She's chaotic good with a capital GOOD. It would be an interesting way to go with it, though.

[edit]Holy Liberator has essentially the exact same class features as paladin of freedom. I'd be barely better off taking that as I would just taking more levels of PoF.

Keld Denar
2008-11-09, 04:26 PM
Holy Liberator and Divine Champion from Complete Divine are both decent. Full BAB and a unique casting list. DC can get some really useful spells too, if you get a good domain like Travel. A 1 level dip in Contemplative after you start DC doubles your spell list at the cost of a couple HP and a point of BAB. HL gives you total immunity to Charms/Compulsions at level 3, and has casting similar to Pious Templar except with a few different spells. Otherwise, the mentioned Greyguard is ok to diversify your smitatude.

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-09, 04:30 PM
Keld, do you mean Divine Crusader? I don't see a Divine Champion in CDiv, and Divine Crusader doesn't have full BAB and requires weapon focus (deity's weapon). I'd rather go with Pious Templar.

I edited in an explanation for not taking Holy Liberator in my previous post, but to reinterate: it has all the same features as Paladin of Freedom; I might as well just continue that as take Holy Liberator.

Keld Denar
2008-11-09, 05:08 PM
Keld, do you mean Divine Crusader? I don't see a Divine Champion in CDiv, and Divine Crusader doesn't have full BAB and requires weapon focus (deity's weapon). I'd rather go with Pious Templar.

I edited in an explanation for not taking Holy Liberator in my previous post, but to reinterate: it has all the same features as Paladin of Freedom; I might as well just continue that as take Holy Liberator.

My bad, I ment Divine Champion. Blah. Yea, I have no idea then what you should PrC into, if anything. I'd just keep with paladin then. Make sure you make full use of Complete Champion for spells so you don't totally gimp yourself. There are some real gems in there like Rhino's Rush, Knight's Move, and Righteous Fury. Battle Blessing + Knight's Move is kind of like shadow pouncing for paladins, so long as you have an ally adjacent.

ocato
2008-11-09, 05:15 PM
Hm, if Grey Guard doesn't float your boat (which seems to scream Chaotic Good Champion, at least to me), then Pious Templar is a fine choice. I'm a fan of it personally, though I typically work it into Ascetic Knight Builds. Granted, I love those Miko type paladin builds. They speak to me.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-09, 05:17 PM
Grey Guard is indeed awesome, but:

1. He doesn't have access to Complete Scoundrel.
2. You have to be Lawful Good.

paddyfool
2008-11-09, 05:49 PM
Well, you can always go Blackguard :smallwink:

Seriously, though... There are various full BAB classes you could take from the sourcebooks, such as Hunter of the Dead, or Anointed Knight, or the altogether too goody-two-shoes Sword of Righteousness, but I've no idea how good they are (only having the Crystal Keep list to look at), or whether they fit with your character concept. Also, from Dragon Mag 321 there's the Infused Warrior, but see the earlier caveats.

One question, however - does your deity have a speciality Templar statted out yet? If not, you could probably make up one and run it by your DM, balancing it against the other Speciality Templars and/or slightly modifying the Speciality Templar of some deity with similar domains.

Thurbane
2008-11-09, 06:50 PM
If you want to provide bonuses to the rest of your party, Purple Dragon Knight (CW) and/or Outcast Champion (RoD) are not bad.

Keld Denar
2008-11-09, 10:03 PM
Oh snap, go Bardadin! Either Bard4/Pal16 or Pal4/Bard16, depending on whether or not you want more casting or more martial abilities. Take all the standard IC stuff, and to 2handed PA with Divine Might, or take Dragonfire Inspiration and you could be more of a support caster with maybe Whirling Blade and bardic casting for damage and control. Either way, fun character, no PrC needed!

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-10, 05:14 AM
My bad, I ment Divine Champion. Blah. Yea, I have no idea then what you should PrC into, if anything. I'd just keep with paladin then. Make sure you make full use of Complete Champion for spells so you don't totally gimp yourself. There are some real gems in there like Rhino's Rush, Knight's Move, and Righteous Fury. Battle Blessing + Knight's Move is kind of like shadow pouncing for paladins, so long as you have an ally adjacent.I'll change concepts before I stick with paladin beyond level 5. Likeliness is if I can't find a paladin PrC I'll go with barbarian--in which case I have plenty of fine choices for PrCs, as well as a base class that doesn't just stop getting class features beyond fifth level.
Hm, if Grey Guard doesn't float your boat (which seems to scream Chaotic Good Champion, at least to me), then Pious Templar is a fine choice. I'm a fan of it personally, though I typically work it into Ascetic Knight Builds. Granted, I love those Miko type paladin builds. They speak to me.The problem with Pious Templar is that it restricts my weapon choice. I definitely want to go in with a reach weapon; quarterstaff just isn't going to cut it. The impression that I get from this DM is that they are going to expect me to stick to rules for PrCs; Pious Templar gets some cool stuff, but reach is pretty important to my build and frankly the image of a big dude in heavy armor wielding a quarterstaff without major spellcasting behind him is wonky as hell to me.
Grey Guard is indeed awesome, but:

1. He doesn't have access to Complete Scoundrel.
2. You have to be Lawful Good.Actually, I do have access to CScoundrel. Lawful good is a problem though. EVERYTHING that I might be interested in seems to require lawfulness--everything chaotic seems to also come with "by the way no armor for you." So annoying...
Well, you can always go Blackguard :smallwink:

Seriously, though... There are various full BAB classes you could take from the sourcebooks, such as Hunter of the Dead, or Anointed Knight, or the altogether too goody-two-shoes Sword of Righteousness, but I've no idea how good they are (only having the Crystal Keep list to look at), or whether they fit with your character concept. Also, from Dragon Mag 321 there's the Infused Warrior, but see the earlier caveats.

One question, however - does your deity have a speciality Templar statted out yet? If not, you could probably make up one and run it by your DM, balancing it against the other Speciality Templars and/or slightly modifying the Speciality Templar of some deity with similar domains.Hunter of the Dead is more focused on undead than I'd like; I have no reason to believe this will be a particularly undead-heavy campaign.

Anointed Knight requires Ancestral Relic--doesn't fit the character, and I doubt the DM will allow it anyway.

Sword of Righteousness gets me three levels, and honestly exalted feats aren't that impressive to me. Pious Templar ranks higher than that on my list easily.

No Dragon Magazine materials.

Specialty Templar? I'm not certain what exactly you're talking about there. What book is that from?
If you want to provide bonuses to the rest of your party, Purple Dragon Knight (CW) and/or Outcast Champion (RoD) are not bad.

Purple Dragon Knight requries LG, NG, LN, or N. CG is not on that list.

Outcast Champion requires half-something as a race. I'm going to be playing a human.
Oh snap, go Bardadin! Either Bard4/Pal16 or Pal4/Bard16, depending on whether or not you want more casting or more martial abilities. Take all the standard IC stuff, and to 2handed PA with Divine Might, or take Dragonfire Inspiration and you could be more of a support caster with maybe Whirling Blade and bardic casting for damage and control. Either way, fun character, no PrC needed!

Eeh, I'm not looking to be the support character here; this guy is melee through and through. In fact, I will probably be exchanging paladin spellcasting for feats ala CChampion's ACFs, especially if I can find a PrC that work for me. A concept for another game perhaps, but here I need something that's most at home on the front line.

Greg
2008-11-10, 05:22 AM
What about Fax's fix? I take it that was vetoed.

Iku Rex
2008-11-10, 05:34 AM
I'll change concepts before I stick with paladin beyond level 5. Likeliness is if I can't find a paladin PrC I'll go with barbarian--in which case I have plenty of fine choices for PrCs, as well as a base class that doesn't just stop getting class features beyond fifth level.Lay on hands, the special mount and smite evil keep improving as your level increases. More importantly, you get spells. Get the Battle Blessing feat from CCha and they can be quite useful.

paddyfool
2008-11-10, 05:41 AM
Specialty Templar

I'm talking about any one of a score or so of combative prestige classes devoted to an invidual deity (Champion of Correllian Larethian, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Shining Blade of Heironeous, etc. etc. etc.). I think most of the relevent ones would be in BoED, and if your deity doesn't have one already, you might be able to persuade your DM to let you swap some stuff out from one with other things that fit your deity better, and come up with some appropriate fluff.

If all else fails... going Pal/Cleric might work if your Wis is decent, or Pal/Fighter (for a couple of levels, anyway). Pal/Barb is a possibility too, if it fits; although you lose the +10 move while in Heavy Armor, all the other character abilities stay, iirc. But I'm really scraping the barrel here...

Swooper
2008-11-10, 06:15 AM
Didn't read the entire thread (but ctrl-f tells me it wasn't mentioned already), but how about War Priest? It's sucky for clerics because it's only 5/10 casting, but for paladins it's pretty decent iirc.

Edit: Wait, I looked it up, and it needs access to one of a few specific domains. I'm sure I've seen it mentioned as a PrC for paladins... Is there a trick for getting domain access as a paladin that I'm not aware of?

Keld Denar
2008-11-10, 07:15 AM
Eeh, I'm not looking to be the support character here; this guy is melee through and through. In fact, I will probably be exchanging paladin spellcasting for feats ala CChampion's ACFs, especially if I can find a PrC that work for me. A concept for another game perhaps, but here I need something that's most at home on the front line.

So, only pick up 3-4 levels of it. You lose 1 point of BAB and a couple HP, but at the expense of a feat and a couple magic items, you more than double your return. Between regular IC at about +5/+5 and Divine Might giving you more +cha to hit, you'll be slamming pretty hard with your Glaive, especially if you PA a bit too. After those levels, head back into Paladin to keep progressing your IC, Smite damage, spellcasting, and other stuff. You won't get a great deal of diverse class features, but your full attacks will be potent with your 2handed PAs. Sure, you'll buff your party a bit, but you'll be doing it mostly for yourself, since the more your IC gives, the more you can PA for safely without too much worry about accuracy.

Telonius
2008-11-10, 01:02 PM
Do you intend to be focused on your Paladin's Mount? If so, Wild Plains Outrider from Complete Adventurer might be nice. It's only a three-level PrC, and the third level bonus is extremely nice - lets you make a full attack as long as your mount only moves 1x speed. 4+int skills, good Fort save, full BAB. Track is the only requirement you likely won't have taken anyway. Drawback: only d8.

Blackfang108
2008-11-10, 02:19 PM
I know it's not on your list, but, If you CAN get a copy of Planar Handbook, I'd recommend either Doomlord or Chaotician.

both have some fun features, and Doomlord would probably be right up your alley.

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-11, 08:25 AM
What about Fax's fix? I take it that was vetoed.No homebrew, so that's out. If it wasn't, I'd have no problems going 1-20 paladin.

Lay on hands, the special mount and smite evil keep improving as your level increases. More importantly, you get spells. Get the Battle Blessing feat from CCha and they can be quite useful.None of that is enough to carry the class in high levels. No even close, really. Plus, most of my resources are going to go into getting my strength and charisma increased: I don't have anything left to spare for wisdom.

I'm talking about any one of a score or so of combative prestige classes devoted to an invidual deity (Champion of Correllian Larethian, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Shining Blade of Heironeous, etc. etc. etc.). I think most of the relevent ones would be in BoED, and if your deity doesn't have one already, you might be able to persuade your DM to let you swap some stuff out from one with other things that fit your deity better, and come up with some appropriate fluff.

If all else fails... going Pal/Cleric might work if your Wis is decent, or Pal/Fighter (for a couple of levels, anyway). Pal/Barb is a possibility too, if it fits; although you lose the +10 move while in Heavy Armor, all the other character abilities stay, iirc. But I'm really scraping the barrel here...Ah, okay. Well, this is a homebrewed deity, so yeah, no Templar class. This DM seems -very- anti-homebrew, so I doubt I could get anything like that in, but I might try something like that.

Wisdom isn't going to be terribly good, so the cleric route's a bust. Paladin/barbarian is starting to look more and more like what I'm going to end up doing. As for the fast movement, there are a ton of ways to trade that in the SRD class variants (which the DM has allowed).
Didn't read the entire thread (but ctrl-f tells me it wasn't mentioned already), but how about War Priest? It's sucky for clerics because it's only 5/10 casting, but for paladins it's pretty decent iirc.

Edit: Wait, I looked it up, and it needs access to one of a few specific domains. I'm sure I've seen it mentioned as a PrC for paladins... Is there a trick for getting domain access as a paladin that I'm not aware of?
As I recall, you don't have to have access to the domains--just spells in the domains. Paladin spellcasting includes a few spells in said domains, so I can meet the prereqs. I remember looking at it and thinking that War Priest wasn't where I wanted to go for some reason--I think it might have been "Pious Templar or barbarian is better," but I'll take another look at it and see.

So, only pick up 3-4 levels of it. You lose 1 point of BAB and a couple HP, but at the expense of a feat and a couple magic items, you more than double your return. Between regular IC at about +5/+5 and Divine Might giving you more +cha to hit, you'll be slamming pretty hard with your Glaive, especially if you PA a bit too. After those levels, head back into Paladin to keep progressing your IC, Smite damage, spellcasting, and other stuff. You won't get a great deal of diverse class features, but your full attacks will be potent with your 2handed PAs. Sure, you'll buff your party a bit, but you'll be doing it mostly for yourself, since the more your IC gives, the more you can PA for safely without too much worry about accuracy.Okay, I think I'm missing something here. Inspire Courage isn't progressed by paladin levels. What is Divine Might? Also, remember that bard spells suffer from ASF in anything above light armor, and I have repeatedly said that I want heavy armor in this thread.

It looks like by going into bard, I get nothing but a few skill points (admittedly useful) and occasional inspire courage in exchange for HP and a point of BAB. At best, that's an even trade, and the way this character is starting to look in my head, bard doesn't really suit him. What am I missing here?


Do you intend to be focused on your Paladin's Mount? If so, Wild Plains Outrider from Complete Adventurer might be nice. It's only a three-level PrC, and the third level bonus is extremely nice - lets you make a full attack as long as your mount only moves 1x speed. 4+int skills, good Fort save, full BAB. Track is the only requirement you likely won't have taken anyway. Drawback: only d8.
Hm. This is an interesting possibility. I originally had in mind not really focusing on the mount, but if I can get into another mount-progressing PrC after this one, I may do just that. Track is a nasty pre-req that I would rather not have to deal with, but other than that it looks pretty good. Problem is that most mount-progressing PrCs are lawful only...

I know it's not on your list, but, If you CAN get a copy of Planar Handbook, I'd recommend either Doomlord or Chaotician.

both have some fun features, and Doomlord would probably be right up your alley.If it's not on my book list, it is not allowed, period. :(

Iku Rex
2008-11-11, 09:25 AM
None of that is enough to carry the class in high levels. No even close, really. Have you looked at the spells available to paladins?

Plus, most of my resources are going to go into getting my strength and charisma increased: I don't have anything left to spare for wisdom. You only need Wis 12 or 14. That's not such a great sacrifice.

Telonius
2008-11-11, 09:48 AM
Hm. This is an interesting possibility. I originally had in mind not really focusing on the mount, but if I can get into another mount-progressing PrC after this one, I may do just that. Track is a nasty pre-req that I would rather not have to deal with, but other than that it looks pretty good. Problem is that most mount-progressing PrCs are lawful only...


I haven't thought this one through completely, but ... Ranger1/Paladin of Freedom5/WildPlainsOutrider3/Ranger11; take the Devoted Tracker feat at level 3. It'll give you all the front-loaded goodies that Ranger has, full BAB, nice saves, Smite stacking, and mount/companion progression stacking. (Swapped out one level of PoF for Ranger to maximize mount hitdice; probably more useful than 1/week remove disease).