[3.5] Warlock damage

[Fulkerin]

So... what kind of damage is eldritch blast? I probably just missed it in the description, but my dm isn't happy that its apparently just damage and not acid or something similar.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

[Albonor]

Force damage I think.

Edit: untyped, right. I forgot about the miss chance...

[Whiplord]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's just damage. I think there's invocations you can take to change the energy type, but...

[monty]

It's untyped damage. Not force damage, because it doesn't hit ethereal creatures and so on.

[Jack_Simth]

So... what kind of damage is eldritch blast? I probably just missed it in the description, but my dm isn't happy that its apparently just damage and not acid or something similar.

Thanks in advance for any answers.
It becomes other stuff if you apply an essence to it, but by default, it's just effectively untyped arcane damage.

[Fulkerin]

Thanks. Will now begin to force that into my dms head lol.

[RMS Oceanic]

Since this is a Warlock thread, I'll ask here: I'm really confused about invocations. How do you apply them to your Eldritch Blast? Does it reduce/replace the damage? Is it inconjunction with the damage?

[Talic]

You may generally add one blast essence and one shape essence to each blast.

Unless they state otherwise, they do not decrease damage.

The other invocations, the random ones that duplicate spells? Those are used instead of blasting. So if you use Fell Flight, you don't shoot a beam.

However, if you shoot a beam, you could apply eldritch spear to it to increase the range, and then brimstone blast to add a status effect and type the damage.

[Burley]

Yeah.
Also, it doesn't count as conjuration. It counts as an Invocation.
Eldritch Blast is subject to SR, but not DR. I believe there is an invocation (Caustic something, maybe) that ignores SR, but that is a Greater Essense, I believe.

As for the various invocations:
Eldritch Blast is your base invocation. You apply Blast Shapes (which change the shape) and Essence Invocations (which, as Talic said, add extra damage and/or effects). You may add one Shape and one Essence to each Eldritch Blast, and you can mix and match the one-and-one between all that you know, each time you invoke the Blast. The blast is a standard action, so, you only get one shot per round, but adding a shape and/or essence does NOT increase the casting time. It will always be a standard action. (There are feats that can shorten it, but that's complicated...)
The only time you'll ever get to make more than one attack in a round is when you use the Eldritch Glaive blast shape (from Dragon Magic) which gives you a reach weapon, and allows you to make attacks as though it were a melee weapon (full-round action=iterative attacks).

Now, there is a third set of invocations called... Other Invocations, if I recall correctly. (Little known fact: The word "other" is really mystical. :smallwink:)
These all have a casting time of "Standard." But, unless otherwise stated, last until you rest again, or end the effect (free action). So, Fell Flight takes ~3 seconds to invoke (cast) and lasts all bloody day.

So, that's basically it. Um... yeah... There are only a few books with support for the Warlock. (Complete Arcana/Mage, Cityscape, Magic of Incarnum, Dragon Magic, and Drow of the Underdark, I think....)
Have fun. They're great.

[Tokiko Mima]

Eldritch Blast is Eldritch typed energy damage. There is no Eldritch Energy Resistance in RAW (though you certainly could create such!), and it's energy so DR doesn't apply. I suspect this is intentional: straight out of Complete Arcane Eldritch damage is in line with rogue sneak attack damage, except you can't get multiple attacks with it and you don't get weapon, enhancement or ability bonus damage. So the lack of RAW resistance to Eldritch damage means that the warlock is guaranteed to do at least a small amount of damage every round as long as they hit.

Certain Invocations transform your Eldritch Blast into another Energy type. For example Hellrime Blast makes your Eldritch damage become cold damage. This is good for when you are facing an energy type vulnerable monster but usually bad in most other cases.

Invocations enhancing Eldritch Blast have one hard limit: You may enhance a particular casting of Eldritch Blast with (1) Blast Shape Invocation, and (1) Eldritch Essense Invocation. Some Essenses do a small amount of additional damage (e.g. Brimstone sets it's victim on fire, Vitriolic bypasses SR and does bonus Acid damage on subsequent rounds.) Blast Shapes usually allow you to hit more than a single target or to strike in a different way.

One of my favorite high level combos is to use Eldritch Chain (BS) and Repelling Blast (EE) while being assaulted in midair. Eldritch Chain let's me hit any pursuers within 30 feet of each other, to a maximum of 1 + Caster Level/5. Repelling Blast gives a Reflex save before sending someone struck with my Blast 1d6 times 5' back, and landing prone... which is not usually a condition most creatures fly in. *splat* :smallwink:

[Starbuck_II]

Eldritch Blast is Eldritch typed energy damage. There is no Eldritch Energy Resistance in RAW (though you certainly could create such!), and it's energy so DR doesn't apply. I suspect this is intentional: straight out of Complete Arcane Eldritch damage is in line with rogue sneak attack damage, except you can't get multiple attacks with it and you don't get weapon, enhancement or ability bonus damage. So the lack of RAW resistance to Eldritch damage means that the warlock is guaranteed to do at least a small amount of damage every round as long as they hit.

Certain Invocations transform your Eldritch Blast into another Energy type. For example Hellrime Blast makes your Eldritch damage become cold damage. This is good for when you are facing an energy type vulnerable monster but usually bad in most other cases.

Invocations enhancing Eldritch Blast have one hard limit: You may enhance a particular casting of Eldritch Blast with (1) Blast Shape Invocation, and (1) Eldritch Essense Invocation. Some Essenses do a small amount of additional damage (e.g. Brimstone sets it's victim on fire, Vitriolic bypasses SR and does bonus Acid damage on subsequent rounds.) Blast Shapes usually allow you to hit more than a single target or to strike in a different way.

One of my favorite high level combos is to use Eldritch Chain (BS) and Repelling Blast (EE) while being assaulted in midair. Eldritch Chain let's me hit any pursuers within 30 feet of each other, to a maximum of 1 + Caster Level/5. Repelling Blast gives a Reflex save before sending someone struck with my Blast 1d6 times 5' back, and landing prone... which is not usually a condition most creatures fly in. *splat* :smallwink:

You know, Edritch might just be a energy type. After all, judst like energy attacks it get 1/2'ed before applying hardness when attacking an object (similar to fire/Electric damage is 1/2'ed).

[Burley]

You know, Edritch might just be a energy type. After all, judst like energy attacks it get 1/2'ed before applying hardness when attacking an object (similar to fire/Electric damage is 1/2'ed).

Well, Hammer Blast is an Essense that allows it to deal full damage to objects.
My favorite combo, while not all too powerful, is very demoralizing. Eldritch Glaive+Hammer Blast, with the Improved Sunder feat. Oh, yeah. Every time, folks. Every time.
I've never been able to use it in a game, though...

[Wabbajack]

Or just use the essence that changes your blast to acid damage, which by the way ignores spell resistance, too and does some extra damage over time.
My favourite for glaive^^

[monty]

I believe there is an invocation (Caustic something, maybe) that ignores SR, but that is a Greater Essense, I believe.

Vitriolic Blast. It's a Greater essence that makes EB do acid damage and a minor DoT effect, but more importantly ignores SR. Every high-level warlock should take it, because pretty much everything and its mother has spell resistance at higher levels, and you won't be useless against golems.

[Captain Six]

There was a feat in Savage Species, Supernatural Transformation. It could be taken at level one and it let one spell-like ability ignore SR. :smallcool:

It's pretty easy to find pre-warlock feats to abuse. Not many classes get spell-like abilities so a few overpowered feats for monsters with them are around. Mortalbane from Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind. :smallamused: That showed the party's archer.

[Eldariel]

There was a feat in Savage Species, Supernatural Transformation. It could be taken at level one and it let one spell-like ability ignore SR. :smallcool:

It's pretty easy to find pre-warlock feats to abuse. Not many classes get spell-like abilities so a few overpowered feats for monsters with them are around. Mortalbane from Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind. :smallamused: That showed the party's archer.

Then again, that's not saying much since both, BoVD and SS are 3.0 material, and tend to rip balance a new one anyways.

[Burley]

There was a feat in Savage Species, Supernatural Transformation. It could be taken at level one and it let one spell-like ability ignore SR. :smallcool:

It's pretty easy to find pre-warlock feats to abuse. Not many classes get spell-like abilities so a few overpowered feats for monsters with them are around. Mortalbane from Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind. :smallamused: That showed the party's archer.

Supernatural Transformation only applies to racial spell-like abilities, not SLAs from classes. It is of no use to a Warlock.

[Tokiko Mima]

Supernatural Transformation only applies to racial spell-like abilities, not SLAs from classes. It is of no use to a Warlock.

Actually, the text says 'innate' which has no solid game definition, thus the debate. Is a warlock's power innate to them because they were born with it? It's all a matter of how you read the fluffy stuff at the beginning of warlock. If it said 'racial' then there would never have been a debate, because that's a term with actual game impact and class features are not racial abilities.

For a power standpoint, now much does it benefit a warlock to ignore SR with their Eldritch Blast when they have an invocation that already allows them to do that? The only advantage is that you can take Supernatural Transformation (E.B.) at level 1, whereas you wouldn't be able to get Vitriolic Blast till level 10 or so. Either way though, you won't be seeing many high SR monsters until then so I don't see much difference.

[Project_Mayhem]

to branch off in another direction from the OP, is the extra sneak attack/ sudden strike/ skirmish/ etc. damage untyped, or the same as the rest of the damage?

i.e. a Rogue 1 Sneak Attacks with alchemist's fire - is it 2d6 fire damage, or 1d6 fire damage + 1d6 untyped?

[Burley]

to branch off in another direction from the OP, is the extra sneak attack/ sudden strike/ skirmish/ etc. damage untyped, or the same as the rest of the damage?

i.e. a Rogue 1 Sneak Attacks with alchemist's fire - is it 2d6 fire damage, or 1d6 fire damage + 1d6 untyped?

Actually, sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish have a damage type. It's precision damage. It doesn't take the form of what you're attacking with, if you were a rogue/sorc and used scorching ray, the SA wouldn't be fire, it would still be "precision". Some things are immune to precision damage (constructs, undead, aberrations etc.), so making it take on the [fire] descriptor would technically cut through the immunities, since zombies aren't immune to fire.
(Tangental: keep in mind that you wouldn't get SA damage on the splash effect of the alchemist's fire, because you don't roll to hit on the splash damage.)

@Tokiko Mima: I would venture to say that, since Warlock powers are bestowed from an outside source (Fey or Fiend), they are not innate. A Gnomes ability to cast Silent Image would be innate, as would a Dromite's psi-like ability to cast manifest Energy Ray.

Can we keep this thread going? Just a bit longer? I love Warlock conversations.

[kamikasei]

Actually, sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish have a damage type. It's precision damage. It doesn't take the form of what you're attacking with, if you were a rogue/sorc and used scorching ray, the SA wouldn't be fire, it would still be "precision". Some things are immune to precision damage (constructs, undead, aberrations etc.), so making it take on the [fire] descriptor would technically cut through the immunities, since zombies aren't immune to fire.

I'm pretty sure this is false. "Precision" is not a type like bludgeoning, fire etc. You may or may not be susceptible to precision damage, but it's not like having DR or immunity. Someone with immunity to fire, hit with a scorching ray from an arcane trickster (or whatever; basically, sneak attack applied to an energy type attack) may take the sneak attack damage or not depending on whether they're undead, have heavy fortification, etc; but their immunity will mean they ignore it all anyway.

A zombie being hit by such an attack would not take the extra sneak attack damage, because although the sneak attack, like the regular attack, is [fire], they are not subject to precision damage because you can't do more damage by hitting them with fire in any particular place over any other.

[Burley]

A zombie being hit by such an attack would not take the extra sneak attack damage, because although the sneak attack, like the regular attack, is [fire], they are not subject to precision damage because you can't do more damage by hitting them with fire in any particular place over any other.

But, if something has fire vulnerability, like a Frost Giant, the sneak attack damage shouldn't be considered [fire], otherwise the SA damage would be 50% more effective...which it shouldn't. It should considered it's own damage type, like positive and negative energy (which are pretty amibiguous).

[Tokiko Mima]

@Tokiko Mima: I would venture to say that, since Warlock powers are bestowed from an outside source (Fey or Fiend), they are not innate. A Gnomes ability to cast Silent Image would be innate, as would a Dromite's psi-like ability to cast manifest Energy Ray.

Can we keep this thread going? Just a bit longer? I love Warlock conversations.

Then you'd be disagreeing with the warlocks designer in Complete Arcane. The first few sentences describe their abilities as suffusing their soul, responding directly to their will, and their warlock powers as an "innate magical gift." Innate doesn't have to mean racial, but it probably encompasses at the very least racial abilities, sorcerous powers, greater than normal strength, or any essential quality of a character.

After all, "innate" can mean many things. You're probably reading one definition "possessing as a racial characteristic" but another from Webster's dictionary is "possessed as an essential characteristic, or inherent" and I think Eldritch Blast falls under the second category, and may fall under the first if the fluffy bits of warlock are examined separately from their RAW connotation. After all, if warlocks can gain their powers as part of their bloodline before they are even born, how is that not a racial characteristic for them?

Also, keep in mind that 3.5 warlocks are not the limited 'Binder-esque' warlocks of 4.0. It's not a choice of Fey or Fiend, any dark or dangerous power will do. Pacts in 3.5 as opposed to 4.0 are extremely open-ended and not even described in detail. It's left up to the DM and the players to detail where and how exactly a warlock gains his power.

And I agree about keeping the Warlock talk alive. Warlocks are the superhero/Marvel mutant class of D&D. They are fun to design and play because there are so many different ways to create a warlock, all of them unique and fun. I wish they had left Warlocks out of Complete Mage personally, and gone for another 3.5 book, "Complete Invocationists." :smallsmile:

[kamikasei]

But, if something has fire vulnerability, like a Frost Giant, the sneak attack damage shouldn't be considered [fire], otherwise the SA damage would be 50% more effective...which it shouldn't.

Why not?

If someone is extra-vulnerable to fire, hitting them with fire in a particularly vulnerable spot should result in their being extra-super-duper-vulnerable; seems reasonable to me. You might argue that this isn't necessarily correct, but you seem to be saying that it can't and shouldn't be, which I don't see the reason for.

[Burley]

Why not?

If someone is extra-vulnerable to fire, hitting them with fire in a particularly vulnerable spot should result in their being extra-super-duper-vulnerable; seems reasonable to me. You might argue that this isn't necessarily correct, but you seem to be saying that it can't and shouldn't be, which I don't see the reason for.

I... er... but... when... seals...

Fine. I have no good argument other than "I doesn't say that anywhere, so it doesn't work." Absense of a rule isn't a good argument. I concede.

I suppose it makes sense, thematically.

[Duke of URL]

I wish they had left Warlocks out of Complete Mage personally, and gone for another 3.5 book, "Complete Invocationists." :smallsmile:

Well, they might not ever publish something like that, but a third-party publisher just might... (*whistles innocently*)

[Fax Celestis]

I... er... but... when... seals...

Fine. I have no good argument other than "I doesn't say that anywhere, so it doesn't work." Absense of a rule isn't a good argument. I concede.

I suppose it makes sense, thematically.

LIES. Reread Weaponlike Spells from CArc.


SNEAK ATTACKS
Any weaponlike spell can be used to make a sneak attack, including ranged spells used against targets within 30 feet (just as with any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue/3rd-level wizard who makes a successful sneak attack with Melf’s acid arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage for the sneak attack (with the spell continuing to deal acid damage as normal in subsequent rounds). The exception is spells that deal energy drain or ability damage, which deal negative energy damage on a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 5th-level rogue/8th-level sorcerer who makes a successful enervation sneak attack bestows 1d4 negative levels and deals 3d6 points of negative energy damage.

If a sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the spell damage is doubled, but not the extra damage (as with any sneak attack critical hit).

[Burley]

LIES. Reread Weaponlike Spells from CArc.

Fine fine fine! "Burley don't know ever'thang."
You win the internet, I lose the internet. Blah blah bleeblahbloo.

Also, :tongue:

[Project_Mayhem]

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals

Thats probably a good precedent for alchemists fire then. I suppose it makes sense - otherwise your dealing nd6 non fire damage with a molotov cocktail. Theres only so hard you can throw it.

God knows what happens with acidic fire (1d4 acid and 1d4 fire).

[Burley]

Thats probably a good precedent for alchemists fire then. I suppose it makes sense - otherwise your dealing nd6 non fire damage with a molotov cocktail. Theres only so hard you can throw it.

God knows what happens with acidic fire (1d4 acid and 1d4 fire).

For the initial attack, yeah. But, the splash damage (1 point in surrounding squares) does not get SA damage, because you aren't rolling to hit.

[Talya]

Damn. Does that mean a single level dip of warlock isn't a bad choice for a rogue, just for the versatility it grants?

[monty]

Good for plugging the dead level, if nothing else.

[Fax Celestis]

Damn. Does that mean a single level dip of warlock isn't a bad choice for a rogue, just for the versatility it grants?

Yup. Nab flee the scene while you're at it.

[monty]

Yup. Nab flee the scene while you're at it.

Not with a single level dip.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Besides, +6 to social skills or +5 to Fort are much more useful than Flee the Scene, IMHO.

[monty]

Besides, +6 to social skills or +5 to Fort are much more useful than Flee the Scene, IMHO.

That really depends on your campaign, though. At-will teleportation can pretty much always be useful, but if you're in a hack and slash game, those social skills are going to be much less useful.

[Tokiko Mima]

Damn. Does that mean a single level dip of warlock isn't a bad choice for a rogue, just for the versatility it grants?

Probably also useful for getting SA off on foes you aren't close to without having to draw a ranged weapon. Say you've just finished off a foe when you notice that your parties Barbarian and Warblade happen to be flanking another foe. You could quickly toss a Blast to add extra damage while you move in for a kill.

Plus, if you're invisible then Warlock gives you a weapon that ignores both Armor AC, and Dex/Dodge AC. That leaves your opponent with what... size bonus and deflection AC?

The downside as a rogue is that you'll likely have to take ranks in Concentration if you plan on Eldritch Blasting while in a foes threatened area.

[Burley]

Probably also useful for getting SA off on foes you aren't close to without having to draw a ranged weapon. Say you've just finished off a foe when you notice that your parties Barbarian and Warblade happen to be flanking another foe. You could quickly toss a Blast to add extra damage while you move in for a kill.

Plus, if you're invisible then Warlock gives you a weapon that ignores both Armor AC, and Dex/Dodge AC. That leaves your opponent with what... size bonus and deflection AC?

The downside as a rogue is that you'll likely have to take ranks in Concentration if you plan on Eldritch Blasting while in a foes threatened area.

Unless you take Eldritch Glaive, which'll let you threaten from a square away.
Or, if you think the glaive is broken (some do), you could just use Blows Hidiously... Er... I mean, Hidious Blow. By RAW, you make a melee attack, then add blast damage. No AoO or Concentration checks.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unless you take Eldritch Glaive, which'll let you threaten from a square away.
Or, if you think the glaive is broken (some do), you could just use Blows Hidiously... Er... I mean, Hidious Blow. By RAW, you make a melee attack, then add blast damage. No AoO or Concentration checks.Actually, it still provokes. Yeah. HB is about as good as Monkey Grip.

[Burley]

Here I though I was finding something almost worth while. Shame on me for ever trying to defend That Which Blows Hidiously... Er... I mean... Y'know... Yeah. That.

[Tokiko Mima]

Here I though I was finding something almost worth while. Shame on me for ever trying to defend That Which Blows Hidiously... Er... I mean... Y'know... Yeah. That.

I agree. It sucks, in every capacity that matters. It's one of the character choices that are as uniformly bad as Power Attack as a feat choice is uniformly good. Sometimes it sucks less than others, but it always sucks just a little. :smallwink:

[Burley]

I agree. It sucks, in every capacity that matters. It's one of the character choices that are as uniformly bad as Power Attack as a feat choice is uniformly good. Sometimes it sucks less than others, but it always sucks just a little. :smallwink:

But, here's a theoretical bit: Say you take Hideous Blow, and hold onto it until you get your iterative attacks, then trade it for Eldritch Glaive. You could take Power Attack all the way up to Great Cleave, yeah? A bit of extra damage? Then, when you have the glaive, you can use the iterative Great Cleaves to thin out crowds or stuff...

[MeklorIlavator]

But, here's a theoretical bit: Say you take Hideous Blow, and hold onto it until you get your iterative attacks, then trade it for Eldritch Glaive. You could take Power Attack all the way up to Great Cleave, yeah? A bit of extra damage? Then, when you have the glaive, you can use the iterative Great Cleaves to thin out crowds or stuff...

But why not just take, you know, a decent invocation instead. Like, say, Eldrich Glaive?

[Burley]

But why not just take, you know, a decent feat instead. Like, say, Eldrich Glaive?

Because Eldritch Glaive isn't a feat? :smalltongue:

I'm suggesting Hidious Blow because, before you get iterative attacks, you are dealing more damage, because you add weapon damage. Use it at first level with a regular glaive, and you'll deal 1d10+1d6 damage, more if you add in an essence. The downside is that you aren't making a touch attack anymore. Power Attack with that will make it nigh impossible to hit things, but if you do hit, it's gonna hurt.
Then, when you can make more attacks, ditch the equipment, and swap out the Blow for the Glaive. You'll lose the ability to use Power Attack with the Eldritch Glaive, but you can still Great Cleave.

This is all assuming my plan for a Human Fighter//Warlock, using only/mostly battle invocations. It's a fairly plausible character, I think...

[monty]

But, here's a theoretical bit: Say you take Hideous Blow, and hold onto it until you get your iterative attacks, then trade it for Eldritch Glaive. You could take Power Attack all the way up to Great Cleave, yeah? A bit of extra damage? Then, when you have the glaive, you can use the iterative Great Cleaves to thin out crowds or stuff...

You get medium BAB and usually won't be Strength-focused. You're better off making touch attacks from the start and hitting consistently than doing a little extra weapon damage when you do hit.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Now let`s throw Hellfire into the mix! :p

Is it an essence, or can it be used with one? Glaive + Hellfire + Vitriol + Binder dip for Nabby is a great combo if it works. Then there`s Bloodline abuse...

[Tokiko Mima]

But, here's a theoretical bit: Say you take Hideous Blow, and hold onto it until you get your iterative attacks, then trade it for Eldritch Glaive. You could take Power Attack all the way up to Great Cleave, yeah? A bit of extra damage? Then, when you have the glaive, you can use the iterative Great Cleaves to thin out crowds or stuff...

Honestly? You're better off with Summon Swarm at that low level. You're a low AC, medium BAB caster type class with not stellar HP. Mixing it up at melee range and missing or worse, granting foes AoO is not something you want to encourage. A Summon Swarm trade to obtain Eldritch Glaive is a perfect blend of trading decreasing usefulness for increasing.

Hideous Blow is never necessary for a warlock. If it comes to needing it, just take a 5' step back, then Eldritch Blast. The small amount of additional weapon damage doesn't really compare to how much more likely it is you'll hit with a straight EB.

Also, I'm not sure you can Power Attack with Eldritch Glaive. Aren't touch spells considered light weapons and that's why Weapon Finesse works on 'em? :smallamused:

[Burley]

I know you can't power attack with eldritch glaive. I fully understand that the feat would be useless by that point. But, you can cleave and great cleave with eldritch glaive. That is what I'm getting at.

Also, Monty, why couldn't it be strength focused? A warlock doesn't need anything higher than a 10 in any ability score to be a viable character. A good Charisma would be nice, sure. Int for skills. But, good Str, Dex and Con would benefit a warlock just as well.

And, Hellfire Warlock makes me ill.

[Tokiko Mima]

Also, Monty, why couldn't it be strength focused? A warlock doesn't need anything higher than a 10 in any ability score to be a viable character. A good Charisma would be nice, sure. Int for skills. But, good Str, Dex and Con would benefit a warlock just as well.

I know you didn't address the question to me, but the reason Warlocks are usually not Strength focused is because excepting Hideous Blow (attack and damage bonus), Eldritch Glaive (attack bonus) and encumbrance, a warlock's Strength score does nothing for them. For the cost of 1 feat (Weapon Finesse) they can mitigate even this loss and substitute Dexterity attack bonus for those two melee Blast Shape invocations. Dexterity on the other hand boosts AC (especially touch AC), reflex saves, initiative and ranged attack bonus and there's no easy way to get another stat to do that. Constitution has similar benefits; Fort save, HP/level, Concentration skill, etc. and is also just as difficult to replace.

In fact, in all of D&D, there's probably not another class that can as easily dump Strength as Warlocks can. Pure Casters maybe, but they would suffer on melee touch attacks with spells and Weapon Finesse doesn't benefit them enough to justify taking it.


And, Hellfire Warlock makes me ill.

And I still fail to see why... It's the PrC that really makes warlocks into formidable and effective blasters on par with Warmages and Evokers. I do remember that we had this conversation before though. You didn't like the fluff?

[monty]

Also, Monty, why couldn't it be strength focused? A warlock doesn't need anything higher than a 10 in any ability score to be a viable character. A good Charisma would be nice, sure. Int for skills. But, good Str, Dex and Con would benefit a warlock just as well.

I didn't say it couldn't, I said "usually won't." You'd probably be much better off focusing on Dex and taking Weapon Finesse so your glaive hits. Better AC, and you're more effective at range.

[Burley]

And I still fail to see why... It's the PrC that really makes warlocks into formidable and effective blasters on par with Warmages and Evokers. I do remember that we had this conversation before though. You didn't like the fluff?

It's not just the fluff. It's that it's the GO-TO when anybody says "warlock."
Rant Spoiled for those who've read it before...
A converstion will go like this:

"So, I've got this idea for a warlock who works for the Fey Court as an Avenger. I really like that prestige class from Complete Mage, but I can't remember the name (not the multi-class wizard/cleric ones, the one for full warlocks). Anyways, I seem to remember a feat that lets me cast when my hands are full. What was it and where is it?"
"Well, if you're gonna play a warlock, you need to take a one-level dip in Binder for that vestige that makes you immune to the constitution damage that you'll take when you go into Hellfire Warlock."

I don't recall seeing a Warlock thread EVER MADE EVER that could survive without somebody putting that PrC in. Its just like when people want to play a monk, and people say "Unarmed Swordsage." Or, when people want to play a Blaster Wizard, and people say they really need to ban evocation and enchantment if they really want to blow stuff up, because they'll eventually get Shadow Evocation anyways.

The PrC is balanced as long as you don't take the Binder level, I guess. I just hate so much that every Warlock Ever needs to be Hellfire, or it won't be worth it's grit. I know it's the Interweb, and I shouldn't get frustrated for people's opinion. I just don't like it.

Can I bring up something from before? There were comments about Acid damage bypassing SR. Where is that? I can't find that anywhere. Is it just that most other Acid Spells ignore it?

[Duke of URL]

Can I bring up something from before? There were comments about Acid damage bypassing SR. Where is that? I can't find that anywhere. Is it just that most other Acid Spells ignore it?

Vitriolic Blast (Greater) essence - Changes type to acid, ignores SR, does damage over time.

[monty]

Can I bring up something from before? There were comments about Acid damage bypassing SR. Where is that? I can't find that anywhere. Is it just that most other Acid Spells ignore it?

It's just part of the invocation. Most acid spells ignore SR because most acid spells are instantaneous conjurations, and instantaneous conjurations ignore SR.

[Burley]

It's just part of the invocation. Most acid spells ignore SR because most acid spells are instantaneous conjurations, and instantaneous conjurations ignore SR.

That's what I was wondering. I never thought about it, since there is an essense that gives you a +4 CL to overcome SR, at the same level... But, I think it forces them to drop their SR for a bit. Righto.

[monty]

That's what I was wondering. I never thought about it, since there is an essense that gives you a +4 CL to overcome SR, at the same level... But, I think it forces them to drop their SR for a bit. Righto.

On the other hand, if they have acid resistance, you'd be better off with the +4.

[zugschef]

Vitriolic Blast (Greater) essence - Changes type to acid, ignores SR, does damage over time.
yep. combine that with a crystal helm and shakra bind (crown) to deal force damage. essentially this means you deal full damage to anything not immune or resistent to force damage.

[Teron]

Probably also useful for getting SA off on foes you aren't close to without having to draw a ranged weapon. Say you've just finished off a foe when you notice that your parties Barbarian and Warblade happen to be flanking another foe. You could quickly toss a Blast to add extra damage while you move in for a kill.

Plus, if you're invisible then Warlock gives you a weapon that ignores both Armor AC, and Dex/Dodge AC. That leaves your opponent with what... size bonus and deflection AC?

The downside as a rogue is that you'll likely have to take ranks in Concentration if you plan on Eldritch Blasting while in a foes threatened area.
You have to personally be in a flanking position to get the benefits of flanking, including the attack bonus and ability to sneak attack; simply attacking a creature flanked by two of your allies has no special effect.

[Tokiko Mima]

It's not just the fluff. It's that it's the GO-TO when anybody says "warlock."
Rant Spoiled for those who've read it before...
A converstion will go like this:


I don't recall seeing a Warlock thread EVER MADE EVER that could survive without somebody putting that PrC in. Its just like when people want to play a monk, and people say "Unarmed Swordsage." Or, when people want to play a Blaster Wizard, and people say they really need to ban evocation and enchantment if they really want to blow stuff up, because they'll eventually get Shadow Evocation anyways.

The PrC is balanced as long as you don't take the Binder level, I guess. I just hate so much that every Warlock Ever needs to be Hellfire, or it won't be worth it's grit. I know it's the Interweb, and I shouldn't get frustrated for people's opinion. I just don't like it.

True, but the reason it's suggested is that it's just mechanically better. People suggesting it are just trying to be helpful, after all. And it's only a good /required PrC if you build your warlock to be a serious blaster/damage dealer. If you focus on utility invocations, or multiclass to something else (e.g. Eldritch Disciple w/ Healing Blast) then Hellfire Warlock doesn't help you much. It also doesn't help that the list of official "made for warlock" PrC's can be counted on one hand, with a finger left over.

I think it's just that Blasters are REALLY, REALLY popular because they're flashy and easy to use. Look at how many Wizards specialize in evocation, even knowing it's a poor overall choice for a wizard. Also many people play Warmages, even though they are less than stellar performers as well.

Hellfire Warlock has the advantage of actually being mechanically good, and a Blaster at the same time. I'm kinda guilty of thinking that every decent warlock should be a pixie, but I forget not everyone starts their campaigns at level 5+, or wants to be a Fay type creature. So I apologize if I've offended you on that count.

[Burley]

Hellfire Warlock has the advantage of actually being mechanically good, and a Blaster at the same time. I'm kinda guilty of thinking that every decent warlock should be a pixie, but I forget not everyone starts their campaigns at level 5+, or wants to be a Fay type creature. So I apologize if I've offended you on that count.

You didn't offend me. I just see so many builds out on the Cybernet that are just boring "I burn things for Satan" Warlocks. It's my favorite class, obviously, and even before the Codex o' Hellfire was released, it was rare to ever see a non-fiendish warlock.
I don't consider myself a power gamer, or even a RP nut, I just think that if 90% of what I see are one thing, I should try the other. I don't think other people should NOT play a Hellfire Warlock, just that I'd never suggest it, I'd never play it*, and I'd probably try to suggest something else to the player**.

*I made a test character for it, and ran it in a solo test. It wasn't all that great, and there wasn't any flash to think of. That much power seems boring if there isn't a kickback.
**If they are looking for suggestions, and not advice on the actual class. If they want Hellfire, they can have Hellfire.

PS: What is the name of that other Warlock class? The CM one, that isn't the Theurge/Disciple. I want to play that PrC so hard. It's like Paladin meets Warlock... Tight.

[kamikasei]

I think when people recommend the Hellfire Warlock they're usually assuming that the actual Hellfire-by-MephistophelesTM fluff will be discarded and it'll just be "you can supercharge your blast, but it drains you".

[Burley]

*snip* it'll just be "you can supercharge your blast, but it drains you".

But it never does drain you, because...
Well, when was the last time you read anything about a Hellfire Warlock without a Binder dip or that Essentia Vest? It's not just the fluff that bugs me, its that the class is only ever used when people use loopholes to avoid it's drawback/"attempt at balance".

To clear the air: It is a fair class. Not my cup o' tea. Wouldn't be fun in a real game, and I know (from previous exerience with just a straight warlock) that a gaming group would get bored of that much untyped damage really fast.

[Tokiko Mima]

Right, in the campaign I have my pixie warlock the DM doesn't allow Magic of Incarnum or the entire Binder class. Plus, he rules that you suffer Constitution damage for every melee attack you make with a glaive, or 1 point for every 2 secondary targets with Eldritch Chain.

Even with the drawbacks to Hellfire increased and no way to directly negate them, it's not that big of a deal to use Hellfire Blast. All it means is my warlock has to think about the damage she's doing, and make sure she kills things dead, or has an exit strategy for when she's surrounded by monsters and has a Con score of 3 or 4. It almost seems a little cowardly and 'wanting to have your cake and eat it, too' to not suffer any ability damage.

I mean, what else would you use a Rod of Bodily Restoration for, huh? :smalltongue:

[Duke of URL]

I mean, what else would you use a Rod of Bodily Restoration for, huh? :smalltongue:

I like eternal wands of lesser restoration, myself, unless I plan on Hellfiring all day long. I hate giving up the invoker levels or feats to do the cheesy Incarnum things anyway.

Also, ditto to the Pixielock -- it's like getting better versions of two Lesser invocations (and there are lots of good Lesser invocations) for free, plus SR and better DR. You just lose some damage potential, HP, and skills, but really, really good for utility Warlocks. Especially with the +3 DC boost from the Charisma bonus.

[monty]

Isn't greater invisibility a Greater invocation?

[MeklorIlavator]

The other warlock PrC from complete mage is called Enlightened Spirit, and it blows. The class doesn't increase invocation progression, so when you stop taking it you'll still be 5th level warlock in terms of what invocations you can use. Also, most of the invocation that is gives you suck really baldly or are pretty much re-fluffed normal ones. For example Celestial Flight is exactly like Fell Flight except for 1 thing: the wings are angelic instead of fiendish. Plus, most Dm's that I know would be fine with a warlock changing the flavor of the invocations to fit with the nature of the powers.