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View Full Version : [3.5] Where'd you get that map, again?



Jack_Simth
2008-11-09, 09:46 PM
I was browsing through some books, looking for an item for a character, and came across a gem:



Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense)

The wearer of this kind of third eye can manifest clairvoyant sense at will.

Faint clairsentience; ML 3rd; Craft Universal Item, clairvoyant sense; Price 24,000 gp.

I checked, and Clairvoyant Sense is a 2nd level Seer Power - which suddenly develops problems if you can use it at-will:



Clairvoyant Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm)
Clairsentience (Scrying)
Level: Seer 2
Display: Auditory and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Effect: Psionic sensor
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3

You can see and hear a distant location almost as if you were there. You don’t need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one, such as behind a door, around a corner, or in a grove of trees. Once you have selected the locale, the focus of your clairvoyant sense doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying powers, this power does not allow psionically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it.

If the chosen locale is magically or psionically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the power’s effect or out to the extent of your natural darkvision. The power does not work across planes.

With this item, you can fully map out a dungeon without ever stepping foot into it. How?

Well, it helps if you've got natural Darkvision (dwarf, half-orc, whisper gnome, quite a few others), but that only speeds things up in dark areas. See, it has to be a place that's familiar to you, or a place that's obvious to you. With an item that makes it at-will, that gets... interesting.

Method:
1) Stop at the entry to the dungeon. Use Clairvoyant Sense to see inside the first section.
2) From your Clairvoyant Sense sensor, activate the item again to use Clairvoyant Sense to see the next section (most doors are obvious, so when you're viewing from the first room, you'll be able to see the doors to the others).
3) Goto 2 until you run out of places to look.

As it's a standard action to activate, you can do this quite quickly.

Is it my imagination, or is this item a bit on the overly-useful side for something that only costs 24k?

Flickerdart
2008-11-09, 10:09 PM
Divination is always powerful for those that know how to use it properly.

Arbitrarity
2008-11-09, 10:11 PM
Better than our last dungeon mapping technique, which involved a seer.

Doesn't seem too bad. At will makes it a bit silly, but it's the same as a Arcane Eye in many ways.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-09, 10:17 PM
Nothing overpowered. It's a nice trick, but it isn't overpowered in the least (the price sort of hurts it).

Good way to prevent being ambushed though.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-10, 08:00 AM
Better than our last dungeon mapping technique, which involved a seer.

Doesn't seem too bad. At will makes it a bit silly, but it's the same as a Arcane Eye in many ways.

Let's see... Arcane Eye is a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell, has a 10-minute casting time, but is mobile (can't go through doors, though, while this can get through doors).

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell, has a 10-minute casting time, and only lets you see or hear (not both).

Clairvoyant Sense is Seer-2, standard action manifesting, and lets you both see and hear the target location. One of the fairly rare cases where a non-combat Psionic power is better than it's arcane counterparts.

But yes, it's the At-Will nature that lets it get out of hand. Pick a spot a few hundred feet up in the air, then manifest again a mile or two further on, using that to navigate until you see the area you're looking for, then examine the building/castle/dungeon/whatever at your leisure. No save, no SR for the item see you. About the only defenses are things you'd use to avoid the Rogue's eye - actual hiding, invisibility, and the like - plus things that disrupt scrying spells (Darkness spells, Private Sanctum, Nondetection, Mind Blank, and similar).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-10, 08:23 AM
At-will anything tends to be overpowered. CLW, true strike...

Items that replicate, in a limited way, some part of a spell's effect (like magical armor sort of replicates mage armor, but not quite) on a continuous or at-will basis can be fine. Items that just let you use a spell (or power) at-will are almost by definition overpowered and crying out to be abused.

There are expections, of course - like feather fall, which is pretty much useless unless you have it in a continuous item.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-10, 08:31 AM
At-will anything tends to be overpowered. CLW
Less so than you might think - all it does, really, is ease up on how many spells the cleric spends on healing, and makes it so the Fighter and Rogue can keep it up all day.

, true strike...
Only if it's swift, free, or non-action; if you maintain the action cost of the spell (standard action, that must be used within one round) it's not actually all that grand.


Items that replicate, in a limited way, some part of a spell's effect (like magical armor sort of replicates mage armor, but not quite) on a continuous or at-will basis can be fine. Items that just let you use a spell (or power) at-will are almost by definition overpowered and crying out to be abused.

There are expections, of course - like feather fall, which is pretty much useless unless you have it in a continuous item.Core: Hand of the Mage, Cubic Gate, Amulet of the Planes, Ring of Regeneration, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Telekinesis. Would you call any of those items overpowered?

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 10:28 AM
Core: Hand of the Mage, Cubic Gate, Amulet of the Planes, Ring of Regeneration, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Telekinesis. Would you call any of those items overpowered?

Ring of Telekinesis and Invisibility maybe.

Ring of Regen I'd only use if I had a ring sklot open and was free (didn't count versus Wealth per level).

fil kearney
2008-11-10, 02:14 PM
at will abilities are both a blessing and a curse.
Lets say your team REFUSES to go to a dungeon until it is scryed.
You can either let them do it 3 rooms per day, or you can let them do it in an hour or 4.

You can't always FORCE your team into action. what if the team REFUSES to continue adventuring unless they have a slot available for teleport? they can be done for the day in one or two battles.

Or what if as a DM you overcommit the adventure, and the team runs out of spell power half-way through the lair of the beholder with no easy exit?

I favor well-discussed and sensible at-will use of virtually any spell. It's when players don't communicate with the DM that assumptions start taking hold, and the DM isn't properly prepared for what the team can do.
Preparation and sensibility. That's my two cents.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-10, 08:32 PM
Ring of Telekinesis and Invisibility maybe.

Ring of Regen I'd only use if I had a ring sklot open and was free (didn't count versus Wealth per level).If of an assortment of six items that are basically "use this spell at will", and are selected relatively randomly, if only two of them are over-strong, then it's not at-will items themselves that are broken, is it (which was my point to the other guy)?


at will abilities are both a blessing and a curse.
Lets say your team REFUSES to go to a dungeon until it is scryed.
You can either let them do it 3 rooms per day, or you can let them do it in an hour or 4.

Then it's easy to mess with them. Magically enhanced senses don't work - so they won't notice the invisible critters, the traps, the illusions, the well-hidden doors, and so on. There's still lots of ways to surprise them ... but suddenly the various gates in the Tomb of Horros are simply skipped (Dimension Door), rather than being puzzled out (or rather, the players out-think the builders by coming up with a solution that's not expected in the setup).

If you ignore the combat encounters (and there's only something like four of them, all told), a Wizard with:
The Summon Elemental Reserve Feat (9th)
The Acidic Splatter Reserve Feat (3rd, 5th, or 6th)
The Dimensional Jaunt Reserve Feat (10th; it's not required, but it's handy - prepare a lot of Dimension Doors if you don't have this, two if you do)
This item
All Four elemental Languages (to direct the elementals)
Arcane Sight or Detect Magic (Permanencied - can also use the Magic Sensitive reserve feat to the same effect)
A Necklace of Adaptation (there's only one or two spots where it's important)

Can take the Tomb's traps - ALL OF THEM - on his own, with just some fairly simple precautions:
1) Watch for magic - and if you see it, splatter it until it's no longer magical.
2) Have a Summoned Earth Elemental precede you everywhere by as much distance as possible (which is a good 70 feet), and have an Air Elemental precede you even further (which is a good 230 feet max range).
3) Don't go anywhere you can't readily see - and if you can't see into it, see past it and bypass it.
4) Have an elemental manipulate anything and everything that needs manipulation (there's quite a few things you do not want to touch).

... and that's without having to guess exactly what the designers were thinking.



You can't always FORCE your team into action. what if the team REFUSES to continue adventuring unless they have a slot available for teleport? they can be done for the day in one or two battles.

At 9th, sure, they'll be done quick. At 12th or higher? It's a single spell held in reserve, it's not your top-teir, and so it doesn't have overly much of an impact on endurance.

Or the party can just spring for a Boots/Helm of teleportation; if it's for emergency use only (which is generally the use when someone insisting on having at least one Teleport available ), a scroll covers it.


Or what if as a DM you overcommit the adventure, and the team runs out of spell power half-way through the lair of the beholder with no easy exit?

Then (as a DM) it's either TPK, or the rogue "missed" a well-concealed pit trap (which does it's xd6 damage to anyone going down that way). It happens.

As a player, it's a likely TPK - it happens, time to roll up a new character.


I favor well-discussed and sensible at-will use of virtually any spell. It's when players don't communicate with the DM that assumptions start taking hold, and the DM isn't properly prepared for what the team can do.
Preparation and sensibility. That's my two cents.

And a good two-cents it is.

Coplantor
2008-11-10, 09:44 PM
Yes! Now I will beat hat stupid Tomb of Horrors!

Jack_Simth
2008-11-10, 10:04 PM
Yes! Now I will beat hat stupid Tomb of Horrors!

Just watch out for the three or four combat encounters in the place - they'll chew you up and spit you out (or swallow you whole; whichever). Make sure your companions have at least the necklace of adaptation, are really good at combat, and DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING UNTIL AFTER YOU'VE SCANNED IT AND HAD AN ELEMENTAL MOVE IT AROUND (and maybe not even then).

Oh yeah - and make sure someone brings a Portable Hole. Have elementals throw stuff in it. Do remember that even iron is 1 sp/pound. Demolish everything, including the doors.

Coplantor
2008-11-10, 10:33 PM
Oh, I know. We've been in the tomb three times already. First time we... Thought of tying all of us to avoid the pits on the first corridor, the fact that we were all conected made it easier for the sphere of anihilation to kill us all.

Secnd time we... got splited in two groups because of party problems. The first group went through the misty door and ended up in a big pit and starved to death, the second group, we believed that the answer layed between Acererak's writtings in the entrance, we found the secret door and the mutant gargoyle killed us all in one round.

Third time we...
reached the large corridor with illusions, well, two of us, one of us was an undead, so he counted as an object and was telported in front of Acererak and got desintegrated in a few seconds, the other one, a druid, well, I cant remember what happened to the druid. Any way, I waf playing a dwarf fighter, who ended up as a dwarf fightress (stupid magic doors) and fell into a lava pit, i managed to live for another round, and my partner took a bit of my carbonized flesh and resurrected me. Now we are looking for another party to go back and get our revenge.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-10, 11:03 PM
Oh, I know. We've been in the tomb three times already. First time we... Thought of tying all of us to avoid the pits on the first corridor, the fact that we were all conected made it easier for the sphere of anihilation to kill us all.


Didn't have an expendable Minion attempt to go through FIRST. Method above covers that - check.



Secnd time we... got splited in two groups because of party problems. The first group went through the misty door and ended up in a big pit and starved to death, the second group, we believed that the answer layed between Acererak's writtings in the entrance, we found the secret door and the mutant gargoyle killed us all in one round.


Went through something where you couldn't see where you were going, and then got killed by one of the three or four combat encounters in the place. Method above *mostly* covers that - check.



Third time we...
reached the large corridor with illusions, well, two of us, one of us was an undead, so he counted as an object and was telported in front of Acererak and got desintegrated in a few seconds, the other one, a druid, well, I cant remember what happened to the druid. Any way, I waf playing a dwarf fighter, who ended up as a dwarf fightress (stupid magic doors) and fell into a lava pit, i managed to live for another round, and my partner took a bit of my carbonized flesh and resurrected me. Now we are looking for another party to go back and get our revenge.
And now you know what wizard to bring along, don't you?

Oh yeah - and that's not even the real Acererak - just a poor imitation.

Coplantor
2008-11-11, 11:58 AM
And now you know what wizard to bring along, don't you?

Oh yeah - and that's not even the real Acererak - just a poor imitation.

I know, the DM told us.