PDA

View Full Version : [3.5e] Planar Madness or: How I Hope to Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Cosmology



Neon Knight
2008-11-09, 10:03 PM
Now that the overly long and complex title out of the way, I can get to the serious question of asking about the standard DnD cosmology.

Namely, which source has the best and most concise explanation of the planes? I've got the Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, a document calling itself Planescape (but I'm uncertain as to what, exactly, it is) and the DMG. I don't know which I'm supposed to read and in what order. Since I've neglected/ignored the whole "Great Wheel" scheme so far, I want to DM a game basically embracing it full on to see if I really dislike it as much as I think I do. I don't have loads of time to devote to reading, however, and I'd like to read the source that will give me the best practical knowledge for my purpose (is there a "DnD Cosmology for Dummies/Beginners"?)

I'd also like to take the opportunity to ask if there is anything people find particularly interesting/compelling about the cosmology (i.e. is there anything I should hit on/emphasize in particular?)

afroakuma
2008-11-09, 10:05 PM
I'll personally offer to answer any questions you may have. (It's sort of my thing.) Feel free to PM me.

Planar Handbook is useless to you at the moment.

Manual of the Planes is fairly concise but doesn't offer a lot.

Planescape is highly in-depth and should be avoided for the moment, until you feel that the particular tone of that setting is for you.


Since I've neglected/ignored the whole "Great Wheel" scheme so far, I want to DM a game basically embracing it full on to see if I really dislike it as much as I think I do.

What do you think you dislike about it?

Flickerdart
2008-11-09, 10:06 PM
Manual of the Planes is for the DM that wants to run a planar campaign. Planar Handbook is for the players of said campaign. Planescape describes, I believe, the City of Sigil.

edit: Ninja'd...c'est la vie.

And the fun thing about Wheels, Great or otherwise, is that you can spin them...

afroakuma
2008-11-09, 10:37 PM
Planescape was the huge 2nd ed. campaign setting with some great complete adventure paths.

Manual of the Planes is the best jumping off point for a DM in 3.5

Again, Kasrkin, any questions you have in particular, feel free to PM me.

Neon Knight
2008-11-09, 10:58 PM
What do you think you dislike about it?

Most of these come more from anecdotes, impressions, hear-say, and brief skimming of the DMG.

To elaborate and continue the references (which are becoming more trite and stretched):

Don't Stand So Close to Me: Certain anecdotes and remarks give me the impression that in certain places one can find figures such as demons and devils loitering in planar cities. It sort of ruins the mystique of the legions of hell/the hordes of the abyss if one can find them next to the butcher's shop.

OH GOD! I CAN SEE FOREVER!: Individual planes are pretty big places. There are a lot of planes, some of which sound pretty involved and detailed. Thus it seems that a planar campaign would involve lots and lots of fluff data retention, something I'm poor at (I can't keep half the details of Eberron straight.) This might just be my general nature of being leery towards campaign settings/big wads of pre-packaged fluff.

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!: The planes seem to be for higher level play, not something I'm overly fond of.

I'll See You On The Dark Side of the Moon: Some of the planes seem a bit... gonzo. Out there. Loopy. You get the picture. They seem to range from Lovecraftian strange to Bad Acid Trip strange to just plain Laughable strange. Some of them seem pretty cool. Others seem a tad pointlessly bizarre.

Every Little Thing She Does is Magic: The planes seem to require an awful lot of magic/magical protection to get around and survive. This means lots of buffs or lots of magic gear.

I Don't Need Your Civil War: Or, more accurately, the Blood War. It seems awful grim-dark and Warhammer 40K-esque that the main reason evil doesn't eat us is because they are too busy walloping the every loving crap out of each other. Also not a fan of the general tendency for good creatures to be stronger, but less numerous than their evil counterparts.

afroakuma
2008-11-09, 11:00 PM
Hash time:


Don't Stand So Close to Me: Certain anecdotes and remarks give me the impression that in certain places one can find figures such as demons and devils loitering in planar cities. It sort of ruins the mystique of the legions of hell/the hordes of the abyss if one can find them next to the butcher's shop.

Certainly true, in what few neutral planar cities there are. Frankly, I expect terrible fire demons in the City of Brass, for example. You are likely referring to Sigil, the main city of the Planescape setting. While it is true that many fiends prowl the city, most of the higher-level ones do so in disguise, much as they would do when wreaking covert doom on the Material plane. Also, that particular planar metropolis is meant to be exotic and cosmopolitan. Most others would never see fiendish traffic.


OH GOD! I CAN SEE FOREVER!: Individual planes are pretty big places. There are a lot of planes, some of which sound pretty involved and detailed. Thus it seems that a planar campaign would involve lots and lots of fluff data retention, something I'm poor at (I can't keep half the details of Eberron straight.) This might just be my general nature of being leery towards campaign settings/big wads of pre-packaged fluff.

The planes have as much or as little fluff as you need. Their infinite-ness allows you to stash stuff as you choose without much concern for "established fluff." In essence, it's exactly what you'd like.


IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!: The planes seem to be for higher level play, not something I'm overly fond of.

Too many people believe this. I've seen some of their old published adventure paths, and though the planes (in 1st edition, in Greyhawk, etc.) are the home of major high-level baddies, the Planescape setting broke them wide open for low-level play. There are tons of things ytou can do with a low-level party on the planes. I'd be quite happy to elaborate on some.


I'll See You On The Dark Side of the Moon: Some of the planes seem a bit... gonzo. Out there. Loopy. You get the picture. They seem to range from Lovecraftian strange to Bad Acid Trip strange to just plain Laughable strange. Some of them seem pretty cool. Others seem a tad pointlessly bizarre.

You are referring to Limbo and the Far Realm. The first... well, that's what it is. Don't like it, don't go there. If you need/want to go to Limbo, I recently did a retool that makes it less crazy.

The Far Realm is the Lovecraftian madness, and is not usually discussed alongside the Great Wheel, as it doesn't form a component of it.


Every Little Thing She Does is Magic: The planes seem to require an awful lot of magic/magical protection to get around and survive. This means lots of buffs or lots of magic gear.

Oddly enough, a lot of lesser planar monsters can be dealt with using conventional weaponry. "Planars" (the alignment representative races of the planes) are the main offenders in needing magical weaponry. Magical protections are rarely needed to run a very good adventure, though, unless it's in Limbo or some inhospitable Elemental Plane.


I Don't Need Your Civil War: Or, more accurately, the Blood War. It seems awful grim-dark and Warhammer 40K-esque that the main reason evil doesn't eat us is because they are too busy walloping the every loving crap out of each other. Also not a fan of the general tendency for good creatures to be stronger, but less numerous than their evil counterparts.

Planar history states that evil tried munching on good way back when, and fell apart because... they're evil. Also because good is not dumb, as it turns out. The planes rarely veer into grimdark territory, being rather to high fantasy as the Star Wars original trilogy is to space opera. As for good creatures being stronger, there are a few solid examples (solar, I'm looking at you) but evil has a lot of nasties that tie it up, even in Core with just the pit fiend and balor.

Neon Knight
2008-11-09, 11:22 PM
You are referring to Limbo and the Far Realm. The first... well, that's what it is. Don't like it, don't go there. If you need/want to go to Limbo, I recently did a retool that makes it less crazy.

The Far Realm is the Lovecraftian madness, and is not usually discussed alongside the Great Wheel, as it doesn't form a component of it.



Actually, the example I was thinking of was the Infernal Battlefield of Acheron. Rubik cubes of doom make me giggle.

afroakuma
2008-11-09, 11:25 PM
Polyhedrons on lower levels. :smalleek:

I catch your point; Acheron is, however, a rather interesting plane, cubes notwithstanding. Also fairly easily remodeled if you're not into ideal geometric solids for island battlefields.

Any further concerns? Questions?

Neon Knight
2008-11-09, 11:41 PM
There are tons of things ytou can do with a low-level party on the planes. I'd be quite happy to elaborate on some.


I'd be interested in hearing this elaboration. Also, my current plans have me dealing with slaadi, inevitables, fey, and more aberrations than you can shake an Necrominicon at. I have Lords of Madness (and something of an aberration thing) so I don't need help in that regard, but I was wondering: are there any fey in the Planes? Any fey dominated planes?

afroakuma
2008-11-09, 11:45 PM
Arborea is a very sylvan plane, filled with elves and rules by the eladrins, who are basically planar fey rulers. Normal fey creatures also live there. Other planes have some fey spirits, most notably Pandemonium, which is home to the Unseelie Court (the traditional evil fey of myth).

If you're looking at slaadi and inevitables, I urge you to look at my sig.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-09, 11:52 PM
Planescape describes, I believe, the City of Doors/The Cage/that place with the Lady of Pain (yes, I've forgotten its name. Sue me.)

Sigil. *sues Flickerdart*

Kris Strife
2008-11-09, 11:54 PM
Other planes have some fey spirits, most notably Pandemonium, which is home to the Unseelie Court (the traditional evil fey of myth).

Sorry to sidetrack, but what book(s) are they in? I want to run a campagn with the Unseelie court, but I'm not sure how to stat them out.

afroakuma
2008-11-10, 12:02 AM
Sorry Kris, they aren't published. Check out my Caillteanas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5253896#post5253896)
for an example of what an Unseelie might be like. WotC's website published the unseelie nymph and leanan sidhe, and the various MM's have the Banshrae, Verdant Prince, Red Cap, Kelpie and Selkie, which should be a good start.

afroakuma
2008-11-10, 12:18 AM
As to the main point (Kris, just PM me if you have further questions):


I'd be interested in hearing this elaboration. Also, my current plans have me dealing with slaadi, inevitables, fey, and more aberrations than you can shake an Necrominicon at. I have Lords of Madness (and something of an aberration thing) so I don't need help in that regard, but I was wondering: are there any fey in the Planes? Any fey dominated planes?

I mentioned my Limbo and Inevitables projects [/shameless plug] and Lords of Madness will serve for all the aberrations you'll ever need.

As to elaborations, I'll post a few tomorrow for you. If there's any plane or race in particular you'd like a few low-level ideas for, feel free to specify. I personally enjoy the setting and its resources, and I'm always willing to lend a hand if you want to see the possibilities of it.

Captain Six
2008-11-10, 12:29 AM
Sorry to sidetrack, but what book(s) are they in? I want to run a campagn with the Unseelie court, but I'm not sure how to stat them out.

I read somewhere that generic seelie and unseelie can be made with elves and the half-fiend and half-celestial templates. I think it was Manual of the Planes.

starwoof
2008-11-10, 12:59 AM
Sorry to sidetrack, but what book(s) are they in? I want to run a campagn with the Unseelie court, but I'm not sure how to stat them out.

The Dragon Compendium has templates for both Seelie and Unseelie courts. Not to mention its a pretty good book anyway.:smallsmile:

bosssmiley
2008-11-10, 04:58 AM
I've got the Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, a document calling itself Planescape (but I'm uncertain as to what, exactly, it is)...

:smallamused:

Planescape was an attempt to turn the mish-mash of planes presented in 1E MotP (and reprinted in 3E MotP) into somewhere you can do something more than just fight the gods/devils/demons when you reach high level. You can seriously run a Planescape game from level 1. See the low level section of Adventures in the Lower Planes here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828) for some suggestions, or download "Planes of Law/Conflict/Chaos" from paizo or rpgnow.

For all its flaws Planescape was probably the single best setting TSR ever published (and this is a raving "Birthright" fan speaking).

As for the materials you have to hand: MotP gives you the Baedeker/Michelin tour overview; Planescape is the cool friend who shows you that one great local bar/restaurant/venue. Planar Handbook? That has some good ideas, but their execution is mediocre-to-weak. Planar rifts are ho-hum (we already have colour pools, conduits, astral storms, etc.), planar touchstones a greatly wasted opportunity, and the Prestige Classes just loot Planescape's corpse. :smallannoyed:

Most compelling parts of the cosmology? Ideologically morphic landscapes. Sigil. The Doomguard. Anything to do with the Astral.

Pronounceable
2008-11-10, 11:09 AM
I Don't Need Your Civil War: Or, more accurately, the Blood War. It seems awful grim-dark and Warhammer 40K-esque that the main reason evil doesn't eat us is because they are too busy walloping the every loving crap out of each other. Also not a fan of the general tendency for good creatures to be stronger, but less numerous than their evil counterparts.

You are correct that it's rather grimdark. But the underlying principle of order vs chaos was/is one of the greatest ideas to come to DnD, so it has (if nothing else) historical value. Not to mention, celestials are doing it too. LGs and CGs dislike each other as well. Being good doesn't stop them from wanting to exterminate order/chaos. Their idea of extermination is through persuasion/intimidation/seduction instead of ripping the other side limb from limb.

And nobody outnumbers anybody in the planes. All sides are infinite in number (maybe except for tanar'ri, who're a bit more infinite).

afroakuma
2008-11-10, 11:13 AM
Modrons are (relatively) finite as well.

hewhosaysfish
2008-11-10, 01:05 PM
One of the 'books' in Frank and K's "Tome of X" series (I think it may be the Tome of Fiends) has a section called "High Adventure in the Lower Planes" that discusses possible plot hooks and quest seeds for adventures in the Lower Planes, sorted according to whether they are suitable for low-, mid- or high-level parties.
Here's some quotes from near the start of that section:

Remember that the Primes* are essentially infinite in scope as well, and while there are ancient dragons and Xixicals... somewhere, the fact is you could adventure your whole life and never ever meet one...
...Gehenna is actually just like that, except that instead of you never seeing powerful dragons in your day to day life, you never see Arcanoloths...
...It's not advisable for low level characters to go running around Tiamat's lair, but the fact that the Elder Brian Pool is somewhere in the Underdark hasn't stopped any low level campaigns from tunnel crawling

*the Material Plane

JMobius
2008-11-10, 01:16 PM
Is it known why Planescape never saw 3rd ed (as I understand it)? It is far and apart the best sounding of the published settings, but I much prefer 3.5. :smallfrown:

afroakuma
2008-11-10, 01:20 PM
Couldn't say, although its artistic designer has gone on to do well for himself. You may know him from his book, "The Spiderwick Chronicles."

afroakuma
2008-11-10, 06:19 PM
Low-level Adventure Hooks:

• One of the gate towns is close to sliding due to the actions of a popular demagogue. The players must find out who is paying him and expose his actions to the town.

• An item made of cold iron that deflects magical scrying has demons and the fey on edge. Agents from both sides want to contract adventurers to find it and eliminate it, as they can't see or touch it themselves.

• A formian outpost established in Acheron has the local goblin population on edge. While they distract the main warrior corps, they need another party to eliminate the workers and few supervisory warriors who remain.

• The illness of an elf prince requires drops of water from an alpine tree in Arborea. The local dryad tests those who would take this water.

• A trio of imps abetted by a fallen lantern archon sorcerer are stirring trouble and performing contract killings under cover of nondetection on the first layer of Mount Celestia.

• An inquisitive ravid traveling through Mechanus is stirring chaos with its animated objects and must be removed.

• A drug that causes apathy and sadness is being smuggled into Elysium by a clique of lesser fiends.

• A paladin crusading in the Gray Waste has been stricken by the plane's power. A lesser yugoloth who wants to exploit the paladin's death to earn a promotion is keeping him hidden until he dies from losing the will to live.

• A business interest is attempting to construct a new portal to the Plane of Water and needs help acquiring the necessary components.

Just a few. If you'd like to request some that are more specific to your needs, please feel free.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-10, 06:24 PM
Add this to Afro's hooks: A gnomish wizard has figured out how to create very small portals to the Elemental Planes. His inventor brother has taken his portal mechanisms (one to the Plane of Fire, another to the Plane of Water) and has created a steam engine that runs on literally nothing.

Fizban
2008-11-10, 06:33 PM
See the low level section of Adventures in the Lower Planes here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828) for some suggestions,
Aha! That's the first thing I thought of reading this thread. I couldn't remember what it was, and it was driving me nuts: thank you for the reminder. That's pretty much all I've got, the link says it better than me.