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rampaging-poet
2008-11-09, 10:30 PM
Hello, I'm just a forum lurker with a question.

I understand the concept of using planar binding to call efreet and force them to grant you wishes before setting them free. Looking over the rules on the spell, they don't even have much of a chance to get free without performing some service for the caster. My question is as follows: Why would they give you exactly what you want?
If I remember correctly, the efreet despise servitude. If you lock one up in a 10' diameter magic circle until he grants you three wishes, he's going to be rather annoyed. He has no reason to grant the wish in the way you intended, and yet apparently every caster will, by RAW, always get what they intended.

The only thing I've ever seen people use to defend this is the wording of the wish spell. The gist of the argument is that since you get what you want when casting the wish provided you stay within certain limits, you get what you want when a wish is cast on your behalf.
The problem with that (IMO) is that efreeti is casting wish, not you. Although you can ask for whatever you want, he has total control over the actual wording provided it still technically fulfils your wording. He can do whatever he wants provided it is a possible interpretation of your words.
For example, if I were to cast wish and wish for my friend to be returned from the dead, I'd duplicate resurrection and he'd be fine. However, if were to call up an efreeti and force him to grant my wish of "Return my friend from the dead", he could then cast wish to duplicate create undead, technically returning my friend from death but not in the manner I had intended.
I admit this example is a little poor in that the wish was worded in a bit of a sloppy manner, but the point is still there.

So... thoughts?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-09, 10:35 PM
You give him specific orders as to exactly what he should wish for down to pausing for breath?

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-09, 10:38 PM
You just have him wish you up a Ring of Three Wish's. And using gate gets around the Efreet trying to **** you over, you just order him to not **** you over.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-09, 10:57 PM
You just have him wish you up a Ring of Three Wish's. And using gate gets around the Efreet trying to **** you over, you just order him to not **** you over.

How about not? Look at the price of a RIng of 3 Wishes, then check the limit for Wishing a magic item into existance. If Wish could be used to do that, people wouldn't complain about you having to use 5 of them in rapid succession to get a +5 to one ability score and blowing 25000 XP in the process, they would just spend a fraction of that and a spell slot to get the Ring, then wish for another one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-09, 10:58 PM
Take skill ranks in Profession:Lawyer or Craft:Legalese(depending on casting stat). Then just tell the DM "I make a DC 37 check to prevent him screwing me over. I could actually write out what my character does, but doing so would be 10 pages and drive you insane, so how about you just let this fly?"

Edit:That's the problem with Wish. It only limits the value of mundane items, you can by RAW wish for epic items of +1,000 to your stats that cast Wish at-will. :smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 07:01 AM
Take skill ranks in Profession:Lawyer or Craft:Legalese(depending on casting stat). Then just tell the DM "I make a DC 37 check to prevent him screwing me over. I could actually write out what my character does, but doing so would be 10 pages and drive you insane, so how about you just let this fly?"

Edit:That's the problem with Wish. It only limits the value of mundane items, you can by RAW wish for epic items of +1,000 to your stats that cast Wish at-will. :smallannoyed:

You can't afford the Exp cost for thast epic item...unless your an efferti. Their Wish cost no Exp.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-10, 07:04 AM
You can't afford the Exp cost for thast epic item...unless your an efferti. Their Wish cost no Exp.The spell costs 5,000 XP. You don't need to pay for the item at all.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 07:09 AM
The spell costs 5,000 XP. You don't need to pay for the item at all.

Are you saying Wish doesn't cost Exp to create stuff?
If you are casting wish yourself: it does cost Exp.
When you wish for an item: it doesn't stral it from someone else or instantly make it appear:
It crafts it. Using double cost of Exp cost +5K base for Wish.

Hiowever, though Efferti have that supernatural ability to Wish so the MM says it costs nothing.



When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.


Example, to craft a Cloak of Displacement, Major normally costs 2000 Xp: so to wish for it costs (2x2=) 4K +5K for Wish= 9K in total.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-10, 07:16 AM
Are you saying Wish doesn't cost Exp to create stuff?
If you are casting wish yourself: it does cost Exp.
When you wish for an item: it doesn't stral it from someone else or instantly make it appear:
It crafts it. Using double cost of Exp cost +5K base for Wish.

Hiowever, though Efferti have that supernatural ability to Wish so the MM says it costs nothing.



Example, to craft a Cloak of Displacement, Major normally costs 2000 Xp: so to wish for it costs (2x2=) 4K +5K for Wish= 9K in total.Can you provide a link on that? :smallconfused:

Keld Denar
2008-11-10, 07:19 AM
Can you provide a link on that? :smallconfused:



XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.


Right there in plain text.

citation:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-10, 07:30 AM
Right there in plain text.

citation:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htmWow. How did I miss that?

matiris
2008-11-10, 07:30 AM
You just have him wish you up a Ring of Three Wish's. And using gate gets around the Efreet trying to **** you over, you just order him to not **** you over.


wow tippy = win

Saph
2008-11-10, 08:19 AM
You just have him wish you up a Ring of Three Wish's. And using gate gets around the Efreet trying to **** you over, you just order him to not **** you over.

Yeah, there's no way ordering a Wish spell from an intelligent lawful evil outsider who hates the very concept of serving you could POSSIBLY go wrong. :)

Look, no matter what the RAW says, doing something like this is akin to putting a 'Kick Me' sign on your back. It's not just inviting the DM to screw with you, it's sending him a personal message that reads "Please screw with my character! Really, I mean it! PS: your monsters are wussy and you couldn't hurt my character if you tried, nyaah nyaah." Unless you have your DM completely under your thumb, don't try it.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 10:21 AM
Yeah, there's no way ordering a Wish spell from an intelligent lawful evil outsider who hates the very concept of serving you could POSSIBLY go wrong. :)

Look, no matter what the RAW says, doing something like this is akin to putting a 'Kick Me' sign on your back. It's not just inviting the DM to screw with you, it's sending him a personal message that reads "Please screw with my character! Really, I mean it! PS: your monsters are wussy and you couldn't hurt my character if you tried, nyaah nyaah." Unless you have your DM completely under your thumb, don't try it.

- Saph

Can you use your first Wish to wish him to be Dominated by you?
Then Second wish to make item?
Efferti give you 3 wishes, Right?

Funkyodor
2008-11-10, 10:36 AM
Just make sure to have it wish for a Fully Charged Ring of Three Wishes, otherwise he could give you an empty one then leave.

bosssmiley
2008-11-10, 10:40 AM
This is why wishes used to have the "DM's licence to futz with you" clause and entire articles in Dragon devoted in interesting implementations of screw jobs.

As for the 3.X Efreeti cheese/wishing for wishes problem. This is known brokenness and a sane fix that obviated the infinite loop aspects of wish by the RAW was offered several years ago:

No Wishing for More Wishes!

The 3.5 wish spell is very explicit in what it can do, and extremely vague about what it can't do. It has a big list of things it is capable of, and then tells the DM to ad hoc things if anyone wishes for anything that isn't on that list. Unfortunately, wishing for a Staff of 50 wishes is on the list of things you can wish for. The XP cost is considerable (512,180 XP), but if you get your wishes from a magic item (like a Staff of 50 Wishes) or a spell-like ability (like an Efreet), you don't have to pay that XP cost, so the fact that it is stupidly large doesn't even matter. Needless to say, the game completely breaks down as soon as that happens. So in that spirit, we suggest an alternate list of things wish can do, coupled with some things wish actually can't do:

* Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost:
– Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less.
– Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less.
– Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of +5)
– Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level or less, for example).
– Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location on any plane.

* Wishes that aren't Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both:
– Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase in magic item value.
– Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to "life", even if they were an undead, construct, or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a character's level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won't do so.
– Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character's previous initiative pass. This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it.
– Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened.

* Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an example:
– Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race.

Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that).

Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can't give in to your request to have a +3 sword. Also, you'll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that's free and therefore going to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That's because we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the other players don't. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game.

Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can't wish for an item that has wish on it.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 10:40 AM
Just make sure to have it wish for a Fully Charged Ring of Three Wishes, otherwise he could give you an empty one then leave.

Maybe just wish for a luck blade then? Even if it is empty you get benefits then (just for carrying it).

Saph
2008-11-10, 10:45 AM
Look. In an ordinary campaign, with average power levels, this is what is going to happen if you try chain-binding Efreet. (Note: This depends not at all on the RAW and entirely on what sort of person your DM is - which actually applies to most D&D situations.)

These are the two most likely possible results:

1. You succeed, either because your DM's a wuss or because he thinks "well, it's in the book, so it must be okay". Your character and any other characters you like enough to share the wealth with become incredibly powerful and effortlessly beat every challenge from here on in. The campaign becomes akin to playing an FPS on God Mode, and ends within a few sessions, either because the rest of the players get bored and quit or because the DM finally realises that he hasn't thought this through and gives up the whole thing as a bad job.

2. The DM slaps you down. This can take OOC form - "No. It doesn't work. Deal with it." - or it can take IC form - "So you wish for a Ring of Three Wishes? Okay, you get one, along with the creature that was wearing it. (Shows picture from one of the MMs.) You have ten seconds to explain to it why you've called it up out of the Nine Hells, make it convincing."

Neither one is a good idea unless you dislike the campaign you're in (in which case, go for it, but make sure you know what you're buying). And don't be surprised if you're not invited back for the next one.

- Saph

Draken
2008-11-10, 11:19 AM
Portals, bindings. Bah.

Find an effret, steal his hair and cast Simulacrum. There. Free wishes forever and it only cost you 1000 xp.

Zeful
2008-11-10, 12:07 PM
Portals, bindings. Bah.

Find an effret, steal his hair and cast Simulacrum. There. Free wishes forever and it only cost you 1000 xp.

Eschew Materials+Simulacrum=Free wishes for life.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 12:30 PM
Eschew Materials+Simulacrum=Free wishes for life.

Wait, does that work?
Does Eschew materials work? I mean, I guess hair isn't costly...

Zeful
2008-11-10, 12:36 PM
If it has no cost, Eschew materials allows you to ignore it. But then if it has no cost it should be in the Component pouch you bough at the beginning of the game (due to the pouch's wording).


Spell Component Pouch

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

So yeah.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-10, 01:35 PM
Take skill ranks in Profession:Lawyer or Craft:Legalese(depending on casting stat). Then just tell the DM "I make a DC 37 check to prevent him screwing me over. I could actually write out what my character does, but doing so would be 10 pages and drive you insane, so how about you just let this fly?"

Edit:That's the problem with Wish. It only limits the value of mundane items, you can by RAW wish for epic items of +1,000 to your stats that cast Wish at-will. :smallannoyed:

You're going to need real life ranks in Bluff or Diplomacy and Legalese more then you need IC ranks of Legalese.

And God Help You when the other Efreeti who have Wish 3/day notice what you've done.

Saph is correct on what is more likely to happen in a Real Game, IMO. Really, what DM (besides, inevitably, Tippy's, since I doubt he's just theorycrafting) plays this way?

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 01:56 PM
You're going to need real life ranks in Bluff or Diplomacy and Legalese more then you need IC ranks of Legalese.

And God Help You when the other Efreeti who have Wish 3/day notice what you've done.

Saph is correct on what is more likely to happen in a Real Game, IMO. Really, what DM (besides, inevitably, Tippy's, since I doubt he's just theorycrafting) plays this way?

Efreeti can't use Wish themselves. Only Non-efreeti can use a Efreeti's wish.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-10, 01:58 PM
Efreeti can't use Wish themselves. Only Non-efreeti can use a Efreeti's wish.

Guess how much attention I would pay to that little line in the description if someone were playing Rules Lawyer.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-10, 02:02 PM
I'm pretty sure that line is supposed to mean that the Efreet can only use the wish on behalf of a non-Genie (I.E. not itself).

It is an amusing interpretation, though, to see that the only way to use an Efreet's wishes is to be an Ur-Priest and steal it from them...

Fax Celestis
2008-11-10, 02:08 PM
Be a 27th level Spellthief, then sneak attack an efreet and steal his wish SLA. Now, for 24 hours, you don't have to pay XP costs on wishes.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 02:18 PM
Be a 27th level Spellthief, then sneak attack an efreet and steal his wish SLA. Now, for 24 hours, you don't have to pay XP costs on wishes.

A little late to get Wish. But yeah I had to read up on the class 1/3rd of 27 is 9.

AKA_Bait
2008-11-10, 02:41 PM
I'm pretty sure that line is supposed to mean that the Efreet can only use the wish on behalf of a non-Genie (I.E. not itself).


Indeed. Of course, the Efreet can go and make a deal with someone or trick them. i.e.

Efreet: *Poof* Greetings mud covered mortal.
Farmboy: Ur, hi.
Efreet: I have decided to grant you a wish on the condition that you say the following "I wish that all of x spell casters magical items turn to dust".
Farmboy: Just say "I wish that all of x spell casters magical items turn to dust" and you will grant me a wish?
Efreet: Granted! Thanks! *poof*

Starbuck_II
2008-11-10, 02:55 PM
Indeed. Of course, the Efreet can go and make a deal with someone or trick them. i.e.

Efreet: *Poof* Greetings mud covered mortal.
Farmboy: Ur, hi.
Efreet: I have decided to grant you a wish on the condition that you say the following "I wish that all of x spell casters magical items turn to dust".
Farmboy: Just say "I wish that all of x spell casters magical items turn to dust" and you will grant me a wish?
Efreet: Granted! Thanks! *poof*

Wouldn't such a wish be dangerous for the Efreeti? It is above the safe wish list.

ChaosDefender24
2008-11-10, 03:23 PM
Just go supernatural spell from dweomerkeeper if you want efreeti hair.

Or make a Pelor ice assassin if you've already gone this far

AKA_Bait
2008-11-10, 03:26 PM
Wouldn't such a wish be dangerous for the Efreeti? It is above the safe wish list.

Possibly dangerous yes, although some twisting would be needed. However, if the efreeti is feeling particularly vengeful they might just go ahead and do it anyway. Also, since they are performing the wish for another party, i'd say it would be a DM call if the dangers associated with the wish would fall on the efreeti itself or on the poor clueless farmboy. Either way it's a plot hook. :smallbiggrin:

TheThan
2008-11-10, 04:03 PM
Personally I don’t think that players should have access to such things as planar binding and rings of three wishes anyway. To me a wish is a literary device used to further a plot. If the Dm decides to use wishes, then the players should know what they need to be wishing for. If they fail to wish for whatever that is, fine they just ruined the world (not only that but the plot), now they are going to pay the consequences for their failure and have to find a way to fix it.

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-10, 04:13 PM
The realities of a wish-based economy: The Economicon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5)

D&D is a strange game when things are drawn out to their logical conclusion.

My highest-level character is an Arcane Avatar (3rd-party PrC, similar to the Mage of the Arcane order, especially in the spellpool ability). Once it was reasonably safe to do so, he began doing exactly what has been suggested. Every member of the party now has +5 inherent bonuses to their relevant stats because that's what wish is for.

Of course, the DM did an admirable job of keeping the challenges appropriate for us, and we didn't pull the "wish for a magical item beyond the price range of what is listed for mundane items" BS, nor did we nuke enough Efreet to grant everyone a +5 to every stat.

The trick is to remember that though the creature summoned by the planar binding is bound by the spell, you are under no obligation to keep your word. A maximized cold-substituted fireball* kills your average efreet flat-out. :smallbiggrin:
obnoxious
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*So when you apply metamagics to a spell do you italicize the whole thing or just the spell name?

Vinotaur
2008-11-10, 04:16 PM
Personally I don’t think that players should have access to such things as planar binding and rings of three wishes anyway. To me a wish is a literary device used to further a plot. If the Dm decides to use wishes, then the players should know what they need to be wishing for. If they fail to wish for whatever that is, fine they just ruined the world (not only that but the plot), now they are going to pay the consequences for their failure and have to find a way to fix it.

Exactly. How dare those players try to tell the story of their characters. They should sit down, shut up, toe the line, and follow the tracks. This is my story, how dare they try to bring their characters into it in a defining way!

Fax Celestis
2008-11-10, 04:29 PM
*So when you apply metamagics to a spell do you italicize the whole thing or just the spell name?

The whole thing, generally.

TheThan
2008-11-10, 05:03 PM
Exactly. How dare those players try to tell the story of their characters. They should sit down, shut up, toe the line, and follow the tracks. This is my story, how dare they try to bring their characters into it in a defining way!

That’s not really what I meant, and I do hope that’s sarcasm (the detector gets a little confused when it comes to the internet, it’s kind of like sticking a magnet on a compass).

Anyway I thought that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd07uvkTeKo) is an appropriate link.

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-10, 05:27 PM
That’s not really what I meant, and I do hope that’s sarcasm (the detector gets a little confused when it comes to the internet, it’s kind of like sticking a magnet on a compass).

Ah, but it is what you meant. The players should not use such earth-rending power, even if they are capable of doing so several times a day. They must be responsible with their gifts...

...which is why there are still villains out there! The good guys simply don't use their super-weapons often enough!
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rampaging-poet
2008-11-10, 08:59 PM
Wow, thank you all for the information! It's nice to finally see what other people think about how this applies in an actual game.

I notice that a number of people have brought up the Tome series. I've read them and use some of the material in my game. However, I do not use Frank and K's wish rules, mostly because my party already got a wish before that (longish story).
On the other hand, I note that their Genie class (found in the .pdf compilation) gets to grant wishes starting at 11th level: the number of hit dice a standard efreeti has. Seeing as djinn do not grant wishes unless they are noble djinn and also have eleven hit dice, I'd argue that genies do not get that ability until they have 11 HD and thus the simulacrum trick wouldn't work. However, nothing says an efreeti with less HD can't grant wishes, so it could really go either way.
Also, I imagine the reason the hair (or whatever) of an efreeti doesn't have a listed price is because you're not expected to buy one, not because it's of negligible expense. However, that again would also be a house rule, so it does technically work.

Finally, Irreverent Fool: What do you mean by "under no obligation to keep your word"? It seems to me that you are implying you could keep the same efreeti sitting in your magic circle under the threat of death and forcing him to pump out three wishes per day indefinitely. Technically this would work for one day per caster level, after which he is set free immediately.


Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

I may have simply misinterpreted what you are saying, in which case the quote from the SRD is irrelevent. However, if you got an efreeti to agree to three wishes, that's what you get as he's set free as soon as he finishes. Likewise, he can't be kept around for all eternity with a command such as "Grant me as many wishes as I ask you to".

KKL
2008-11-10, 10:03 PM
I'm surprised nobody has made the suggestion to bribe the Efreet.

TheThan
2008-11-10, 10:09 PM
Ah, but it is what you meant. The players should not use such earth-rendinggame breaking power, even if they are capable of doing so several times a day because they shouldn't have it to begin with. They must be responsible with their gifts...

...which is why there are still villains out there! The good guys simply don't use their super-weapons often enough!
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Fixed that for you…
:smallwink:

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-10, 11:05 PM
Fixed that for you…
:smallwink:
If you don't want your wizards to be wizards, don't allow any spells above 5th level. Or use another system. D&D is silly and its spells are powerful. "Shouldn't have it to begin with" indeed. Let's deny the paladin his lance, mount, and any charge- or ride-based feats while we're at it. Or player class levels. Or metamagic feats.

Or play Iron Heroes. (does that fall under 'another system'?)
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RPGuru1331
2008-11-10, 11:11 PM
Wizards are wizards without the older editions ridiculous spells, trust me.

And I've NEVER seen Paladin Mounts be used, so I'm pretty sure they're paladins without that class feature.

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-10, 11:32 PM
Wizards are wizards without the older editions ridiculous spells, trust me.

And I've NEVER seen Paladin Mounts be used, so I'm pretty sure they're paladins without that class feature.

Wizards without weird spells that do neat things are call Warmages. You've never seen a paladin use his mount? Perhaps they took smiting charge... or is it charging smite? You know, I've never seen anyone play a monk. I'm pretty sure they must not exist! (oh wait)

You're intentionally missing the point and ignoring the fact that I'm simply trying to use these situations as an example in order to poke nonexistent holes in my nonexistent argument. My point is that by denying spells, you're essentially denying the class its class features. If it's all agreed upon by the group beforehand, fine. Houserules are ok. But come on. Summoning extraplanar beings into magic circles and binding them to your will is cool and just way too much ammunition for the DM to not allow.

And if you take my earlier suggestion about just nuking them when you've got your wishes? Everyone has friends. Bob the Efreet's pals are going to miss him next weekend when he doesn't show up to play his level 12 human accountant for the next session of Pencils & Papers, even if he was the annoying one who always countered metaphors with literal interpretations and contrary personal experiences.
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RPGuru1331
2008-11-10, 11:55 PM
Wizards without weird spells that do neat things are call Warmages. You've never seen a paladin use his mount? Perhaps they took smiting charge... or is it charging smite? You know, I've never seen anyone play a monk. I'm pretty sure they must not exist! (oh wait)
I didn't argue Paladins don't have mounts. I said I've never seen a Paladin with a mount; Erego, yes you could take that away, and I would still call that a paladin.

And I don't think TheThan said "No weird spells". He said "No Wish, because it's Power of Plot".


You're intentionally missing the point and ignoring the fact that I'm simply trying to use these situations as an example in order to poke nonexistent holes in my nonexistent argument.
What you stated was indeed an argument. Sorry.

And I missed the point? So it wasn't the anvilicious "IF YOU TAKE AWAY A SPELL YOU ARE KILLING THE CLASS AND SHOULD GO PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME"?


My point is that by denying spells, you're essentially denying the class its class features. If it's all agreed upon by the group beforehand, fine. Houserules are ok. But come on. Summoning extraplanar beings into magic circles and binding them to your will is cool and just way too much ammunition for the DM to not allow.
The only thing I would change about planar binding is making it less about "Roll dice, get pet" and more roleplaying, in Dungeons and Dragons, actually, but I believe I've seen posts by The Than that his players expect the RAW to be followed to a degree. So remove the RAW a bit.


And if you take my earlier suggestion about just nuking them when you've got your wishes? Everyone has friends. Bob the Efreet's pals are going to miss him next weekend when he doesn't show up to play his level 12 human accountant for the next session of Pencils & Papers, even if he was the annoying one who always countered metaphors with literal interpretations and contrary personal experiences.
I've never quite heard a complaint at reacting literally to the message of a metaphor. "you should play a different system because you don't like one little class feature!" is pretty damn extreme, regardless.