Death does not equal erasure, y'know.

[Moonshadow]

All these people who say they don't want Belkar to die, they seem to be forgetting something.


The grave is no bar to my call Just because Belkar dies, it doesn't mean he'll have left the comic for good. Roy is dead, but he's still ghosting around in the Celestial Realm.


You never know, maybe Belkar will go to Hell and incite a rebellion of some sort :smallbiggrin:

[Warlord JK]

Belkar wouldn't go to Hell, at least in normal D&D, because Hell is for Lawful Evil Characters. Belkar is definitely a chaotic evil character, so he would go to the Abyss, or whatever place CE characters go (I can't remember at this moment). Of course, this is OotS and not normal D&D so I have no idea if they have different afterlives.

[Querzis]

Belkar wouldn't go to Hell, at least in normal D&D, because Hell is for Lawful Evil Characters. Belkar is definitely a chaotic evil character, so he would go to the Abyss, or whatever place CE characters go (I can't remember at this moment). Of course, this is OotS and not normal D&D so I have no idea if they have different afterlives.

Considering the fact that Roy is curently in Celestia and that OOTS Celestia is pretty much exactly how D&D Celestia is described, I would say they definitly use the same afterlife.

By the way Yuuki, Belkar incite a rebellion? Belkar cant incite anyone to do anything (except die). The ranking in the abyss is based only on power level and the fact is that there is more then enough epic-level demons to very easely utterly destroy Belkar if they would want to.

[Moonshadow]

Hey, he might hook up with Mr Skull again, and they enact a daring plan to steal the chamberpots of all the demons or something.

No one said it had to make sense :smallwink:

[FoE]

All these people who say they don't want Belkar to die, they seem to be forgetting something.

Just because Belkar dies, it doesn't mean he'll have left the comic for good.

On the other hand, death has been pretty permanent for a large number of supporting characters:

1) Shojo
2) Miko
3) Therkla
4) Kabuto
5) Half of the Linear Guild

6) Right-eye

Only one character in this comic — Xykon — has come back from the dead. And he was dead to begin with.

[Moonshadow]

Technically, Shojo has made another appearance since his death, even if he is just a halluncination. Belkar is a main character though, so he doesn't neccesarily have to disappear.

[Warlord JK]

Considering the fact that Roy is curently in Celestia and that OOTS Celestia is pretty much exactly how D&D Celestia is described, I would say they definitly use the same afterlife.

By the way Yuuki, Belkar incite a rebellion? Belkar cant incite anyone to do anything (except die). The ranking in the abyss is based only on power level and the fact is that there is more then enough epic-level demons to very easely utterly destroy Belkar if they would want to.

1) I'm not sure if the CE afterlife is in fact the Abyss.

2) Mortals who are damned to the Abyss don't become demons (like LE become Lemures in Hell) but become something really horrible and live out eternity in agony.

3) #2 means that Belkar would have a miserable time and never incite a rebellion.

[Lissou]

I think Rich did make a comment about how he might like making a strip about Belkar in the evil afterlife. Someone remember what book that was in?

[Shadic]

I think Rich did make a comment about how he might like making a strip about Belkar in the evil afterlife. Someone remember what book that was in?

That'd be in No Cure for the Paladin Blues. Talking about when Miko almost killed Belkar.

[David Argall]

2) Mortals who are damned to the Abyss don't become demons (like LE become Lemures in Hell) but become something really horrible and live out eternity in agony.
Incorrect under core rules, and probably under OOTS rules too. In either case, the chance of becoming other than the bottom of the pecking order is remote, but it can happen. With the advantage of plot behind him, Belkar might become an archdemon.


3) #2 means that Belkar would have a miserable time and never incite a rebellion.
He would very likely incite a rebellion. Chaotics being chaotic, they rebell all the time. Now success is quite another matter.

[Ikialev]

5) Half of the Linear Guild
If i remember, from Linear Guild only Y(i/o)ky(i/o)k died.

[Demented]

He would very likely incite a rebellion. Chaotics being chaotic, they rebell all the time. Now success is quite another matter.

That assumes they aren't already rebelling, and, if you need something to rebel against in order to rebel, if there's anything to rebel against in a chaotic afterlife.

And even then, Belkar's just not the rebelling type. Now, a stabellion...

[Rad]

Only one character in this comic — Xykon — has come back from the dead. And he was dead to begin with.
OtOoPCs:

Actually we are told that Eugene Greenhilt has died and raised back several times.

SoD:

and on the supporting cast, we could also count Dorukan and Lirian as dead and not coming back. Soon rose with the ghost-martyrs but now he's gone for good too.

[Niknokitueu]

Hey, he might hook up with Mr Skull again, and they enact a daring plan to steal the chamberpots of all the demons or something.
They would never find out who did it. After all, they will have nothing to go on... (:smallyuk:)

Whilst the Oracle can often give misleading prophesies, one thing is clear: Belkar will die within the year (of comic time). What is less clear is will he remain dead?

I personally think not, but then his afterlife (knowing Rich it may well be filled with 'the field of stabbing things' for Belkar) may be too attractive to leave. We just will not know until it happens.

...and I am waiting for the "I'm Baaack!"-type statement that will invariably occur :smallbiggrin:)

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[RebelRogue]

2) Mortals who are damned to the Abyss don't become demons (like LE become Lemures in Hell) but become something really horrible and live out eternity in agony.
I don't have my FC1 here, but I'm pretty sure at least some CE individuals turn into Manes.

[Koshiro]

Whilst the Oracle can often give misleading prophesies, one thing is clear: Belkar will die within the year (of comic time). What is less clear is will he remain dead?
Actually, "last breath - ever" leaves little wiggle room.

[Faceist]

Actually, "last breath - ever" leaves little wiggle room.
He could become an undead, or a construct, or maybe his mouth is sewn shut and he's forced to breathe take in air through his nose. Maybe having a sewn shut mouth is also why he can't enjoy his next birthday cake! You never know.

Or maybe he dies to death.

[evileeyore]

They would never find out who did it. After all, they will have nothing to go on... (:smallyuk:)

I say! Pun-itive damage! :smalltongue:

[Koshiro]

He could become an undead, or a construct, or maybe his mouth is sewn shut and he's forced to breathe take in air through his nose. Maybe having a sewn shut mouth is also why he can't enjoy his next birthday cake! You never know.

Or maybe he dies to death.
He could enjoy his next (from the viewpoint of the Oracle back then) birthday cake. The sentence essentially meant "Belkar's next birthday is going to be his last".
At that time, that implied a theoretical remaining lifespan from 1 day (if the next day had been his birthday, and he died immediately after that) to a little less than 2 years.

Belkar could of course become an undead, but Raise Dead etc. seem to be out of the question.

[Querzis]

1) I'm not sure if the CE afterlife is in fact the Abyss.

Look all I'm saying is that, since Celestia is used and since there is no difference between OOTS Celestia and D&D Celestia, then all the other afterlife are probably used, especially since demons and devils exist in the OOTS universe so they have to come from somewhere.


2) Mortals who are damned to the Abyss don't become demons (like LE become Lemures in Hell) but become something really horrible and live out eternity in agony.

Totally, utterly false. Under core rules, all CE mortals get transformed into demons and all LE mortals get transformed into devils. They become the weakest kind of demons and devils, but they can evolve into more powerfull fiends. Hell, one of the most famous demonlord, Orcus, was a CE mortal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons).


3) #2 means that Belkar would have a miserable time and never incite a rebellion.

Look I do think its ridiculous to think he could start a rebellion but thats because nobody would follow Belkar and because there is more then enough demons who could easely kill Belkar in the Abyss. Nothing else.

[Warlord JK]

Totally, utterly false. Under core rules, all CE mortals get transformed into demons and all LE mortals get transformed into devils. They become the weakest kind of demons and devils, but they can evolve into more powerfull fiends. Hell, one of the most famous demonlord, Orcus, was a CE mortal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons).



OK, first of all let me state that I appear to have lost my FC2, but will argue this from memory.

What happens to CE mortals is that they become manes, which are not demons but exist on the demon plane and are evil outsiders. I believe that some of these manes can become demons or something, but have an almost impossible chance, even harder than a lemure advancing.

[Warlord JK]

That assumes they aren't already rebelling, and, if you need something to rebel against in order to rebel, if there's anything to rebel against in a chaotic afterlife.

And even then, Belkar's just not the rebelling type. Now, a stabellion...

Forgive, but I'm going to have a few posts here because I don't know how to do multiple quotes in one thread :smallfrown:.

In the Abyss, yes it is CE, but each level has its own demonlord who is stronger than almost all the other demons except other demonlords. He is able to maintain a semblance of order, but he himself will like fight minions together and attempt to take over other demonlords turf. It would be IMPOSSIBLE for Belkar to organize all the CE on one plane to rebel against a demon lord and win.

[Warlord JK]

Incorrect under core rules, and probably under OOTS rules too. In either case, the chance of becoming other than the bottom of the pecking order is remote, but it can happen. With the advantage of plot behind him, Belkar might become an archdemon.


He would very likely incite a rebellion. Chaotics being chaotic, they rebell all the time. Now success is quite another matter.

The 1st one: I'm pretty sure that all CE that die become manes, and thus they have a nigh impossible chance of advancing. Its like Hell, except even worse odds of getting higher up. Once again, I've lost my FC2 so I can't look it up for sure

The 2nd one: Belkar would never be able to incite a rebellion in the Abyss. Too much chaos means no organized rebellion and no demon in his right mind would try to kill a demon lord except another demon lord.

[Vemynal]

The grave is no bar to my call

woot! wheel of time^^

[Optimystik]

You never know, maybe Belkar will go to Hell and incite a rebellion of some sort :smallbiggrin:

Didn't 8-Bit run that gag?


Considering the fact that Roy is curently in Celestia and that OOTS Celestia is pretty much exactly how D&D Celestia is described, I would say they definitly use the same afterlife.

Adding to this point, when Elan is contemplating the afterlife he knows that being chaotic will keep him from being able to see Roy again when they both die the final death. Kinda sad when you think about it, what kind of heaven would mess up a friendship?


I personally think not, but then his afterlife (knowing Rich it may well be filled with 'the field of stabbing things' for Belkar) may be too attractive to leave. We just will not know until it happens.


I doubt his afterlife would be that pleasant - the whole point of the evil planes is that they suck, which is why you should try to create hell on earth and never have to go there. I can't think of any sane clerics of Talos, for instance, who'd look forward to meeting their master in Fury's Heart after they failed to impose his will across Toril.

[Niknokitueu]

I doubt his afterlife would be that pleasant - the whole point of the evil planes is that they suck, which is why you should try to create hell on earth and never have to go there.
An interesting take on things.

As a RL equivalent, if you were definite that hell exists, why would you even take the risk of doing something that could send you there?

Besides, it is Rich's universe, and he can change things as much as he wants. Belkar's afterlife is entirely in his hands.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[zyphyr]

Didn't 8-Bit run that gag?

It is a rather old line... "Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over"

[Querzis]

What happens to CE mortals is that they become manes, which are not demons but exist on the demon plane and are evil outsiders. I believe that some of these manes can become demons or something, but have an almost impossible chance, even harder than a lemure advancing.

If they exist and were created on the demon plane then they are, by very definition, demons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mane_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

The only reason why they dont usually advance is because they are so weak that they usually get killed first but thats all. And by the way, did you read the article about Orcus? If you did then please read this line again: «Like many of the most powerful demon lords who struggle for power in the Abyss, Orcus started his existence as a mortal on the Prime Plane». Almost impossible chance uh?

[wotsnow]

The grave is no bar to my call


Nice wot reference plug-in.

[Warlord JK]

If they exist and were created on the demon plane then they are, by very definition, demons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mane_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

The only reason why they dont usually advance is because they are so weak that they usually get killed first but thats all. And by the way, did you read the article about Orcus? If you did then please read this line again: «Like many of the most powerful demon lords who struggle for power in the Abyss, Orcus started his existence as a mortal on the Prime Plane». Almost impossible chance uh?

Once again, I do not have my Fiendish Tome supplement with me, so I have to do this by memory. In the beginning there was only the Abyss and out of the Abyss came demons. There were the original subtype of demon, who have long lost their power. The current type, ten'ari I believe, were able to become more powerful and take control of the Abyss in majority. Nearly all the demonlords came out the Abyss, with a few ascending from mortals. I wouldn't use wikipedia to back your arguments on this, unless you can get someone to back you up via the actual core books or supplements.

[David Argall]

The 1st one: I'm pretty sure that all CE that die become manes, and thus they have a nigh impossible chance of advancing. Its like Hell, except even worse odds of getting higher up. Once again, I've lost my FC2 so I can't look it up for sure
Almost impossible is not at all the same thing as impossible here. The presumption is that the vast majority of manes will stay manes. But for the one in a million or billion...


The 2nd one: Belkar would never be able to incite a rebellion in the Abyss. Too much chaos means no organized rebellion
Who is talking about an organized rebellion? Chaos does not organize much to start with.But that in no way prevents a disorganized rebellion.


and no demon in his right mind would try to kill a demon lord except another demon lord.
A lot of demons are deemed to not be in their right minds.
And the statement has an unstated qualification. "...unless they thought they could get away with it." We would be shocked if lesser demons did not succeed in replacing their superiors at times. It would not be chaotic unless this happened at times.

[Archangel62]

I actually wonder if we're looking at it similar to the Star Wars comment

"Darth Vader killed the good man that your father was, destroyed the young hero I once knew" Yes, that isn't really what was said but it was the gist of it.

The oracle already admitted that he likes twisting the question and answer, so if Belkar changes himself at least outwardly the old Belkar is sort of dead.

[Optimystik]

An interesting take on things.

As a RL equivalent, if you were definite that hell exists, why would you even take the risk of doing something that could send you there?

The same reason Belkar commits evil acts: Good is too boring for some people.


Almost impossible is not at all the same thing as impossible here. The presumption is that the vast majority of manes will stay manes. But for the one in a million or billion...

Now why are you making me think of this comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

FC1: section on Thanatos, tells us Orcus was once a mortal, then a mane, then rose step by step to Demon Lord.

[Assassin89]

Death does equal erasure when the deeds of one man are forgotten. Belkar most likely kills in order to be remembered, although killing in order to be remembered does defeat the purpose if you kill everything.

[Warlord JK]

FC1: section on Thanatos, tells us Orcus was once a mortal, then a mane, then rose step by step to Demon Lord.

I never said Orcus wasn't a mortal and mane at one point. I'm saying though, that nearly all the Demonlords came from the Abyss.