How Do You Justify Your 4E Warlocks Being Good?

[Leliel]

Just an RP question.

I know that, by RAW, any warlock, of any pact, can be any alignment.

However, some of the fluff is, shall we say...a bit a on the "amoral" side.

For me, this isn't a problem-while my warlocks can be quite willing servants of the entities that gave them their powers, none of the entities are evil, just selfish and untamed.

However...

What, besides the old standbys of "being fooled" and "they were bad once, but not anymore", are your reasons for having a Good or Lawful Good warlock?

[Theodoric]

I don't see why Fey warlocks are inherently evil. And besides, just because you get your power from a certain not-good source doesn't mean your evil yourself. Go ask any Microsoft employee.

[Blackfang108]

Simple.

Their power source may not be good, but they are.

Not everyone finds it ammoral to use evil to vanquish evil.

[RPGuru1331]

Astral is pretty easy. you're pacting with incomprehensible aliens. That may not be wise, but it's certainly not evil. Fey is pretty simplistic too, since Fey can be everything and anything simultaneously.

Infernal is fighting fire with fire. Again, not necessarily wise or doable, but nobody said your character has to have been *right*.

[Leliel]

I don't see why Fey warlocks are inherently evil.

I know.

The other pacts though...

And like I said, this is an RP question only, just asking for your specific reason why a character who uses Black Magic (TM) is a Good or Lawful Good one.

[Ravens_cry]

I it could be said they took these powers for a good cause, and have since actually done so. They realize they may now face a terrible punishment upon death, but they are willing to do so to help people in this life. Others lives are more important then a cushy afterlife.
And if that isn't a unselfish act in a world with a certain afterlife, well blimey, I don't know what is.

[Yakk]

Someone who was in a horrid situation, and had an opportunity to generate some good -- but it required a deal with the devil. He knows that his soul is going to hell for the deal, and he'll live eternity being consumed by the fires of devils: but until then, he's trying to make things better.

[Mando Knight]

... And that's why I hope for a Dragon Pact or something... so that there's a being that a Good or Lawful Good being can sell their soul to without ticking off their deity. (i.e. a Palalock or 'Lockadin in the service of Bahamut)

[LibraryOgre]

Well, in my case, it all started when I beat the devil in a fiddle match...

[Fax Celestis]

Infernal is fighting fire with fire. Again, not necessarily wise or doable, but nobody said your character has to have been *right*.

See also: Spawn, The Punisher, Venom, John Constantine.

[Shades of Gray]

My 4E warlock is a DARK PACT warlock from the desert. Yet he is still CG (I know it's just G now, I don't care). He uses his dark powers to create shade from the burning sun, and to slay the occasional invader. He's now left his village to adventure for money to keep his village alive.

[LibraryOgre]

... And that's why I hope for a Dragon Pact or something... so that there's a being that a Good or Lawful Good being can sell their soul to without ticking off their deity. (i.e. a Palalock or 'Lockadin in the service of Bahamut)

We call those who sell their souls to Bahamut "Clerics", and sometimes "Paladins."

Bah'mut chose me this I know
As his Pal'din I will go
Smiting evil in his name
We fight for good and not gain!

Yes, Bah'mut chose me!
Yes, Bah'mut chose me!
Yes, Bah'mut chose me!
As his Pal'din I will go!

[Ravens_cry]

See also: Spawn, The Punisher, Venom, John Constantine.
Spawn was granted his powers, then (and this always felt weird) basically given an open license on how he uses them. With an evil clown devil on his shoulder.
The Punisher is a jerk. Venom was a villain. John Constantine I know nothing about except that the guy from Bill and Ted and The Matrix played him in what is regarded by some as a rather sucky movie, but opinions always differ.

[Philistine]

... And that's why I hope for a Dragon Pact or something... so that there's a being that a Good or Lawful Good being can sell their soul to without ticking off their deity. (i.e. a Palalock or 'Lockadin in the service of Bahamut)

The question then is: would a Good or Lawful Good entity be willing to engage in that kind of deal? The whole "selling your soul" bit is usually regarded as kinda dark. Perhaps if you reflavored it, though... "Promise of servitude" or "oath of fealty" might work better for a deal with a Good entity.

[Break]

Perhaps the darker pacts were forced onto the character somehow? It'd be more an evil power surging into a good character rather than being an explicit pact, but still...

[kbk]

Hereditary.

White wizard phenomena? (E.g., studying your enemy and using their tactics to win).

Star and Fay pacts certainly don't have to be evil.

And for infernal pact, you've got the hellboy phenomena. Demonic power, but with good upbringing.

[Fax Celestis]

Spawn was granted his powers, then (and this always felt weird) basically given an open license on how he uses them. With an evil clown devil on his shoulder.
The Punisher is a jerk. Venom was a villain. John Constantine I know nothing about except that the guy from Bill and Ted and The Matrix played him in what is regarded by some as a rather sucky movie, but opinions always differ.
Spawn was granted his powers in a fashion that couldn't then be revoked. As for the Punisher, he's not a jerk--he's an anti-hero. Venom was only initially a bad guy--then he became a kinda-good-kinda-bad-toe-the-line anti-hero also.

John Constantine plays both ends (Heaven and Hell) against the middle (Earth) to keep his own interests alive.

Edit: further examples include Judge Dredd and Hellboy.

[Ravens_cry]

Spawn was granted his powers in a fashion that couldn't then be revoked. As for the Punisher, he's not a jerk--he's an anti-hero. Venom was only initially a bad guy--then he became a kinda-good-kinda-bad-toe-the-line anti-hero also.

John Constantine plays both ends (Heaven and Hell) against the middle (Earth) to keep his own interests alive.

Edit: further examples include Judge Dredd and Hellboy.
Anti-Hero, a villain who kills villains, rather then heroes. In my not at all humble opinion. I don't like them. Opinions may differ
Judge Dredd, was cop. A cop with authority well beyond that of anything the democracies we know and love, but a cop. Cops can do things civilian's can't. Hellboy, actually struck me as kind of cool, but I only saw parts of the movie, so I don't know what he does in the comics. I admit Good Demons are bit of a weakness of mine. Something I am still willing to forgive a little Marty Stew for.
Spawn, well having powers like that is an example of Stupid Evil. Satan should have read the Evil Overlord list.
Constantine, like I said, don't know much about him.

[chiasaur11]

See also: Spawn, The Punisher, Venom, John Constantine.

Constantine is ideal for this kind of thing.

Basically, the deal you made hoses the demonic entity, and leaves you to get off scott free.

More Good than Lawful Good, but what you gonna do?

[Lapak]

Constantine is ideal for this kind of thing.

Basically, the deal you made hoses the demonic entity, and leaves you to get off scott free.

More Good than Lawful Good, but what you gonna do?Constantine was NOT Good. He was almost an embodiment of pragmatism. Need to make a deal with the devil (or pretend to) in order to solve a problem? He'll do it. Need to sacrifice a former friend in a rather horrible fashion in order to stop a demon from rampaging through the city? Well, if it must be done it must be done. He'll feel bad about it, but he'll do things that are pretty much straight-up Evil with a capital E. He does them mostly to accomplish good goals, though, so it lands him somewhere in the Neutral camp with selfish/evil tendencies.

[FoE]

Evil fights evil all the time; after all, it's hard to conquer the world or break out of your dark prison if, say, Orcus has turned all your followers into zombies and re-made the world in his image. But for a variety of reasons, you can't stop him yourself. So you give a measure of your power to a willing mortal with the ability to stop Orcus and sit back and relax.

And so what if the mortal saves a few towns and villages along the way? The lives of a few hundred halfling, elves, humans and so hardly matter against the grand scheme of things.

[hamishspence]

Even Hellfire Warlocks from 3.5 can be non-evil- using Hellfire isn't evil, because its your own life-force you are sacrificing. It might be very risky though.

I see "Dark powers" for Good as less irritating than "Ruthless pragmatism for Good". If character will murder (not just refrain from rescuing, actively murder) a million to save a billion, thats not any kind of Good. Evil with Good Intentions, maybe.

[chiasaur11]

Constantine was NOT Good. He was almost an embodiment of pragmatism. Need to make a deal with the devil (or pretend to) in order to solve a problem? He'll do it. Need to sacrifice a former friend in a rather horrible fashion in order to stop a demon from rampaging through the city? Well, if it must be done it must be done. He'll feel bad about it, but he'll do things that are pretty much straight-up Evil with a capital E. He does them mostly to accomplish good goals, though, so it lands him somewhere in the Neutral camp with selfish/evil tendencies.

Sorry. Didn't mean to say John was good, just that it's a good explanation.

[TwystidMynd]

The Warlock in my campaign back at home is a Star Pact warlock. She was contacted while she was dreaming by an alien Plantcreature. The Plantcreature is a sort of hive-mind thing, where it knows everything that goes on around any part of it, and it spans galaxies, knows a lot about the universe it lives in, and is unfathomably creepy.

The Plantcreature, though, is under attack - by what, we don't know. But its life is in danger. Probably something like global warming is threatening it ;)

Anyways, it contacted our Warlock through a dream, and explained its plight. Our Warlock sympathized with the Plantcreature, and agreed to its wish: to transplant a seed from the Plantcreature into our universe, so that the creature could find a new home and survive. In return for the promise to find a new home, the Plantcreature has promised to aid our Warlock in whatever ways it can to make that possible, including supplying Eldritch power which she can use to defeat enemies. Our Warlock's Hungering Darkness spell is fluffed as being a haze of otherworldly mist, wherein her Plantcreature can send tendrils to siphon off the life of anyone caught within.

Our Warlock's not exactly sane, and the Plantcreature isn't necessarily Good (we honestly haven't decided if the Plantcreature is more evil than it sounds, or if it's genuinely in trouble), but the Warlock is definitely Good-intentioned.

[RukiTanuki]

It's often assumed that the pact-giver does so gladly and willingly. What if that wasn't the case?

"It had taken years of research, pouring over every dusty tome in every corner of the world, but he finally had the power he wanted.

Make no mistake; finding information on the pact itself was relatively straightforward. But he pushed into new ground, forming a new theory based on the memoirs of pactbound, the tools and weapons of clerics and paladins who stood against these infernal forces, and the advice and wisdom of celestials who were waged in their eternal struggle.

When his would-be patron was summoned, the familiar pact gained a new twist. The second ritual intertwined with the first, radiant chains bound the pact-giver, and power was taken by force. He had earned the wrath of all of their kind, but for now, he was out of their reach. A fraction of their power now lies in his hands, his to control.

The remainder of his life would be spent fighting two wars, without and within. They had a grip on his soul, and he on their power, and neither could let go. He would not be their conduit, their enabler... he would be their undoing."

[KKL]

As for the Punisher, he's not a jerk--he's an anti-hero.

The Punisher is nuttier than a fruitcake in his own ways. He's very much a jerk.

[chiasaur11]

The Punisher is nuttier than a fruitcake in his own ways. He's very much a jerk.

He could be both.

[Flickerdart]

a) The whole concept of the Malconvoker. What if there was a rash fellow who entered a pact with the intentions of breaking it, perhaps with the very power he gained? I can see a high-CHA, low WIS fellow doing this.
b) Faust, by the end of the play. He was pretty amoral, but his intentions were fairly Good...crank down the Romanticism, and you've got a decent character concept.

[Starbuck_II]

The Warlock in my campaign back at home is a Star Pact warlock. She was contacted while she was dreaming by an alien Plantcreature. The Plantcreature is a sort of hive-mind thing, where it knows everything that goes on around any part of it, and it spans galaxies, knows a lot about the universe it lives in, and is unfathomably creepy.

The Plantcreature, though, is under attack - by what, we don't know. But its life is in danger. Probably something like global warming is threatening it ;)

Anyways, it contacted our Warlock through a dream, and explained its plight. Our Warlock sympathized with the Plantcreature, and agreed to its wish: to transplant a seed from the Plantcreature into our universe, so that the creature could find a new home and survive. In return for the promise to find a new home, the Plantcreature has promised to aid our Warlock in whatever ways it can to make that possible, including supplying Eldritch power which she can use to defeat enemies. Our Warlock's Hungering Darkness spell is fluffed as being a haze of otherworldly mist, wherein her Plantcreature can send tendrils to siphon off the life of anyone caught within.

Our Warlock's not exactly sane, and the Plantcreature isn't necessarily Good (we honestly haven't decided if the Plantcreature is more evil than it sounds, or if it's genuinely in trouble), but the Warlock is definitely Good-intentioned.

Sounds similar to the Flood Hive mind (that big plant-like creature in Halo 2). At least that was the first thing that came to my head.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Even Hellfire Warlocks from 3.5 can be non-evil- using Hellfire isn't evil, because its your own life-force you are sacrificing. It might be very risky though.

I see "Dark powers" for Good as less irritating than "Ruthless pragmatism for Good". If character will murder (not just refrain from rescuing, actively murder) a million to save a billion, thats not any kind of Good. Evil with Good Intentions, maybe.I can't see how dooming a billion to save a million is Good, either. Maybe it's perspective. I don't see the difference between 'refuse to save' and 'kill', so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Fax Celestis]

Sounds similar to the Flood Hive mind (that big plant-like creature in Halo 2). At least that was the first thing that came to my head.

Flood are just cheap ripoffs of the Many.

[Tengu_temp]

Flood are just cheap ripoffs of the Many.

You win a pair of goggles.

[Fax Celestis]

You win a pair of goggles.

But...ZEY DO NOZZINK.

[Ealstan]

The concept I have for a Dark Pact Warlock (with justification), is this:

Regular 14 year old boy gets kidnapped by evil old Warlock who makes a big sacrifice to his Dark Masters to buy himself more time (via a body switch with this young man). Body switch occurs, and young boy is now in an old failing body. The Dark Masters (Who have a sick sense of humor and love anarchy) give the young boy an option out: take the same deal as the old warlock. From then he has five years to track down his body thief and get his body back. So young boy takes the offer.

Obviously the moral bearing of the boy hasn't altered due to the deal, but now he has kewl evil powers. It's all win.

[OOTS_Rules 2]

Star Warlock: Beigns from the cosmos spoke to you in your sleep, tempting you with gifts of infinite power. You desired these gifts, and joined the being.

Infernal Warlock: You are part devil after your ancestor had a run in with an Incubus or Sucubus. Although you have very little devil blood, it manifests into warlock powers.

Fey Warlock: See Infernal, but replace Devil with Fey and Sucubus with Nymph.

[Lord_Ventnor]

What I think would be kind of interesting is getting Warlock powers through the Power of Love (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfLove).

For example, boy meets girl. Girl meets boy. Boy falls in love with girl. Girl falls in love with boy. Boy gives girl flowers. Girl gives boy ultimate arcane power. Girl is kidnapped, boy must save her with powers she gave him.

Might work well if the girl is question is an Eladrin. :smallbiggrin:

[Oracle_Hunter]

So yeah, partly it depends on what you fluff the Pacting process to be. Assuming voluntary only...

Astral: Your character studied the old astrology and learned about the Star Men. These sentient beings live far outside the mortal realm and, while difficult to comprehend, do not appear to be either Good nor Evil. You learned that, while these Star Men demand a Pact for their power, once they give it to you they do not care how you use it. Being the self-sacrificing LG person that you are, you gladly accepted their power, so that you could right wrongs, even if your soul may be in danger.

Fey: Basically like Astral; the Fey Lords enjoy giving their power to mortals to sow mischief in the world, but do not, or cannot, exert any control over their Warlock. For some reason, they think empowering a crusading LG guy will do just that :smalltongue:

Infernal: You have studied the dark lore of the world to learn more about the Evil you seek to fight. In your readings, you learned of a long lost Devil King who once traded power for deeds in the mortal realm before he was sealed away by an ancient hero. However, the Seal did not prevent His powers from leaking out and, even today, there are some who undergo a mystic ritual to harness those energies for their own ends. Though most of those individuals are unsavory, it does not appear that using the Infernal power requires evil acts; indeed all that is risked is your own soul. You decide to undergo the ritual you found in the books in order to strengthen yourself in your battle against these Evil forces, by fighting fire with fire.

In general, if you decide that the Pacting entity has little control over your actions (as the PHB suggests by omission) then there is no reason for a Warlock to be any particular alignment. Of course, if you decide that the Pacting entity does have power over its Warlocks or that the rituals needed to form a Pact are particularly unsavory, then that will put a cramp in your alignment.

Remember: anyone, of any alignment, can freely risk their own soul. :smallbiggrin:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What I think would be kind of interesting is getting Warlock powers through the Power of Love (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfLove).

For example, boy meets girl. Girl meets boy. Boy falls in love with girl. Girl falls in love with boy. Boy gives girl flowers. Girl gives boy ultimate arcane power. Girl is kidnapped, boy must save her with powers she gave him.

Might work well if the girl is question is an Eladrin. :smallbiggrin:Or a Succubus. That would actually be awesome as a background.

[EvilElitest]

i don't think the pact is ever actually said to be evil according to 4E aligniment rules, just sinister, though i don't have my books on me
from
EE

[DiscipleofBob]

Infernal Pact possibilities:

PC is a victim of circumstance. Their father was a cruel, demon-worshipping jerk who sacrificed his child's soul instead of his own. Result means PC is forced into dark servitude and gets appropriate powers. PC can then proceed to break the curse but somehow retain the powers.

PC was doing the usual magical research thing and found an old tome, or maybe tried to steal the wrong ancient artifact. Either way, said tome or artifact is cursed and gives the PC warlock powers. With this method, you don't have to have some sort of dark master pulling the strings (though you can if you like.)

Star Pact possibilities:

This one's for those who don't want Cthulu and his ilk in their campaign settings. Some sort of ancient race researched a great deal of powerful magic. They wanted to record said magicks, but didn't want just anyone learning them and they didn't want them to be stuck in books at the bottom of some ruined temple somewhere. So they decided to record their studies in a secret language somewhere where no one ever suspected: the stars. Yes, it turns out that those stars were either placed or rearranged by scholars of this magic to teach others who are worthy. PC either finally cracked the code, gets some ancestral guidance, or wakes up with an epiphany one morning (scuse me, evening) and can read it.

Fey Pact possibilities:

Random Fey gives fey powers to PC, willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly, because they thought it was a fun thing to do at the time.

[nweismuller]

I personally don't much like the idea of the Far Realm in my cosmology, but I never saw the Star Pact fluff as really having much to do with anything Far Realm, necessarily, as the powers are presented in the book. I personally prefer another take on it... what does 'Astral' even *mean*? Literally, 'of the stars'. And thus I would do the Star Pact as manipulation of Astral forces, which incidentally totally justifies just how much Radiant damage starlocks get.

[turkishproverb]

Well, in my case, it all started when I beat the devil in a fiddle match...

"Fire on the mound, run boys, run.
The devil's in the house of the risin sun."


You sir, win the thread. After all, why does the demon always have to get hte good side of hte deal.

[Quincunx]

The devil doesn't bind you, you bind the devil. Requires more than a dash of egotism or megalomania to ignore the relative difference in power levels, but isn't that what makes life fun?

[hamishspence]

Its like the diference between triage and chopping a healthy man up for parts.

Too many medical cases coming in at once to treat them all, you must "refuse to save" some.

Several sick people- you seize a healthy person and chop them up for the parts needed to save the others- you have "Killed to Save".

There were big surveys done on this subject- apparently very few people thought "Killing to save" in this sort of way, was justified.

[Swok]

The devil doesn't bind you, you bind the devil. Requires more than a dash of egotism or megalomania to ignore the relative difference in power levels, but isn't that what makes life fun?

Or one very tricksy trickster personality. What better prank to play than swindling a powerful demon and then taking his magic shinies?

[Reinforcements]

How To Make A Good-Aligned Warlock in Three Easy Steps

1. Make your warlock. Give him whatever pact, powers, values, history, and personality that you want. Since he's good-aligned, he might be a pretty nice guy, but maybe not! The sky's the limit!

2. Realize that alignment is completely meaningless.

3. Put a "G" or "LG" in the space on your character sheet labelled "Alignment".

Voila! You've made a good-aligned warlock! Next week, we'll show you how to make an unaligned paladin. The process is remarkably similar!

[Tengu_temp]

You do know there's nothing in the rules preventing playing any class with any alignment in 4e, right?

[Drakefall]

Here's the story I would use if/when I play a fey-pact warlock.

Picture a quaint forest village of the nature worshipping variety whose populace live in peace with the fey spirits of the forest and such. Cue the inevitable "One day": a raiding party of orcs/bandits/Dire-zombie-shrimp attack and wreak havoc and proceed to set the forest on fire. Now the villagers aren't complete pushovers and put up a decent fight with the aid of a couple of the nice fey, in particular one big badass spirit bear of the "I sit on you and you die!" persuasion. So, basically, all the villagers are mortally wounded and/or dead as well as several bandits/shrimp - the rest of them run away. The spirit bear mans, unable to pursue the few remaining shrimp back to their hideout, for whatever reason, offers to save your life and grant you a piece of his power in return for you acting as his agent of vengeance against the shrimp. So, yeah, you say okies and go slaughter the shrimp and gorge on their delicious flesh. Now, having no home to go back to, you wander off to the nearest inn to sell your newly acquired shrimp hide... and... er... hilarity ensues?

Mah! Well basically that was an example of the "I've already paid my contract and the power is now mine forever with no more consequences" road of which I am quite fond.

[BardicDuelist]

The Warlock in my campaign back at home is a Star Pact warlock. She was contacted while she was dreaming by an alien Plantcreature. The Plantcreature is a sort of hive-mind thing, where it knows everything that goes on around any part of it, and it spans galaxies, knows a lot about the universe it lives in, and is unfathomably creepy.

The Plantcreature, though, is under attack - by what, we don't know. But its life is in danger. Probably something like global warming is threatening it ;)

Anyways, it contacted our Warlock through a dream, and explained its plight. Our Warlock sympathized with the Plantcreature, and agreed to its wish: to transplant a seed from the Plantcreature into our universe, so that the creature could find a new home and survive. In return for the promise to find a new home, the Plantcreature has promised to aid our Warlock in whatever ways it can to make that possible, including supplying Eldritch power which she can use to defeat enemies. Our Warlock's Hungering Darkness spell is fluffed as being a haze of otherworldly mist, wherein her Plantcreature can send tendrils to siphon off the life of anyone caught within.

Our Warlock's not exactly sane, and the Plantcreature isn't necessarily Good (we honestly haven't decided if the Plantcreature is more evil than it sounds, or if it's genuinely in trouble), but the Warlock is definitely Good-intentioned.

"But whatever they offer you, don't feed the plants! Dodo dodo do duh dodo dodo do duh"

[Skaven]

Well, in my case, it all started when I beat the devil in a fiddle match...

... and it may be a sin, but i'll take your bet you're gonna regret 'cause i'm the best there's ever been!

[Inyssius Tor]

You do know there's nothing in the rules preventing playing any class with any alignment in 4e, right?

Yes. We know that. We're not complete idiots, some of us were nerdraging over that paragraph regarding the undesirability of non-good characters a while back, and in fact the OP specifically says exactly what you posted to say in his first post: "I know that, by RAW, any warlock, of any pact, can be any alignment."

We're talking about the fluff, not the crunch. You've traded your soul, and probably the souls of everyone you kill, and quite possibly a lot of influence over your mind and actions, to the freaking devil.

Or someone even worse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovecraftian_horror).

Some might reasonably expect this path to attract an abnormal amount of characters of a certain alignment.

[mikeejimbo]

Heh, when I first read this topic I thought of "Good" as in "Combat-Capable" and I thought "Wait, why would they be bad? They were pretty decent in 3.5, after all, and the fluff says they're pretty powerful."

I don't have anything to actually contribute, except that I never thought of Fey as being "Good". "Chaotic Neutral" is more like it to me. Too bad there is no Chaotic Neutral anymore. :smallfrown:

[Blackfang108]

Heh, when I first read this topic I thought of "Good" as in "Combat-Capable" and I thought "Wait, why would they be bad? They were pretty decent in 3.5, after all, and the fluff says they're pretty powerful."

I don't have anything to actually contribute, except that I never thought of Fey as being "Good". "Chaotic Neutral" is more like it to me. Too bad there is no Chaotic Neutral anymore. :smallfrown:

I just play Unaligned as CN.

My next Warlock is going to be a Githyanki Infernal Warlock who made a pact with a travelling group of demon Bards who write disparaging songs about Devils.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You do know there's nothing in the rules preventing playing any class with any alignment in 4e, right?

Though certain classes do have alignment restrictions. Paladins, for example must be the exact alignment of their deity.

[Roderick_BR]

I know.

The other pacts though...

And like I said, this is an RP question only, just asking for your specific reason why a character who uses Black Magic (TM) is a Good or Lawful Good one.
Because using power from some strange source, to blast something into tiny bits, and maybe fly around the battlefeld, or force people to move, is not different from a cleric or wizard doing the same.

You could be something like Image's Spawn (not the "fooled part" but the "I have powers to defeat evil people, so I'll do it... one time or another", or maybe like Marvel's Punisher, where his methods are not really "lawful good", but he still fights crime and... punishes... (hehe) evil people.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes. We know that. We're not complete idiots, some of us were nerdraging over that paragraph regarding the undesirability of non-good characters a while back, and in fact the OP specifically says exactly what you posted to say in his first post: "I know that, by RAW, any warlock, of any pact, can be any alignment."

We're talking about the fluff, not the crunch. You've traded your soul, and probably the souls of everyone you kill, and quite possibly a lot of influence over your mind and actions, to the freaking devil.

Or someone even worse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovecraftian_horror).

Some might reasonably expect this path to attract an abnormal amount of characters of a certain alignment.

I was referring to Reinforcements, not Leliel.

[Ravens_cry]

How To Make A Good-Aligned Warlock in Three Easy Steps

1. Make your warlock. Give him whatever pact, powers, values, history, and personality that you want. Since he's good-aligned, he might be a pretty nice guy, but maybe not! The sky's the limit!

2. Realize that alignment is completely meaningless.

3. Put a "G" or "LG" in the space on your character sheet labelled "Alignment".

Voila! You've made a good-aligned warlock! Next week, we'll show you how to make an unaligned paladin. The process is remarkably similar!
If that is all there was to it, you might as well call the game Mega Mighty Dice Roles, Now with Modifiers.
because without fluff and role play, that is all the game is. People sitting around bemoaning their low results, and cheering high ones.

[RPGuru1331]

If that is all there was to it, you might as well call the game Mega Mighty Dice Roles, Now with Modifiers.
because without fluff and role play, that is all the game is. People sitting around bemoaning their low results, and cheering high ones.

Funny, that's every Dungeons and Dragons game I've ever played.

Alignment is meaningless either way. At most, it's an ideal for the character to strive for. Their personality should be dominant to their alignment label, not subordinate.

[Ravens_cry]

Funny, that's every Dungeons and Dragons game I've ever played.

Alignment is meaningless either way. At most, it's an ideal for the character to strive for. Their personality should be dominant to their alignment label, not subordinate.
It's a character guide yes. But that doesn't mean its meaningless. Besides, I feel the OP is not so much about the whole alignment issue,(a whole can of worms unto itself) so much as it is about the characters character. It is more asking about motivations, and personality. The character has made a 'deal with the devil', yet the player is claiming they were and still are a good person. What are the reasons for that? Why would a good person do this? You can just put G in the alignment box, but that isn't exactly a well thought out character. Their personality SHOULD be dominant, but they should also HAVE a personality. Yes, the dice rolling is a major part of this game, almost the whole thing, but it is the flavor that makes it something special.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe the deal with the devil wasn't desired, but instead the character was tricked or forced into it.

[Mewtarthio]

You mean like in that campy Nicholas Cage movie*, Ghost Rider? The devil offers Johnny a contract to save his father's life, but the contract is covered in barbs, so Johnny accidentally cuts himself and spills blood on the contract? And then the devil kills the father anyway, because he is teh ebilz?

*Yeah, I know: Completetly redundant...