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dspeyer
2008-11-11, 02:51 AM
RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE X: CHAMPIONS OF GOODNESS

Many adventurers call themselves good. Some really try to be. The challenge here is to create a character who truly is good, and will do meaningful good in the most circumstances.

I realize that the definition of good is vague. Argue on behalf of your character as needed.

Use of BoED is encouraged. Use of BoVD, more so.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)


P.S. I'm having trouble thinking of more challenges. Does anybody else have good ideas?

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-11, 03:03 AM
P.S. I'm having trouble thinking of more challenges. Does anybody else have good ideas?

I've got a couple, not sure if you've tried them:

No classes from the Player's Handbook
No classes that give access to 9th-level spell/manifesting/(etc?) progression
The most self-sufficient characters
The buffless wonders/The buffless melee wonders
#3 and #4
Arcane/divine spellcasting does not function

jcsw
2008-11-11, 03:59 AM
I've got a couple, not sure if you've tried them:

No classes from the Player's Handbook
No classes that give access to 9th-level spell/manifesting/(etc?) progression
The most self-sufficient characters
The buffless wonders/The buffless melee wonders
#3 and #4
Arcane/divine spellcasting does not function


Sounds like you don't like casters. Heh.

1. Master of all elements (Bonus points for having more than four elements!)
2. Ying and Yang (Character must a paragon of both sides of a pair of opposites... eg. fire and ice, good and evil, offence and defence, mind and body)
3. Steampunk'd (Characters must mesh well with a steampunk enviroment!)

Human Paragon 3
2008-11-11, 09:06 AM
Survivor: A Character that can survive anywhere.


By the way, what happened to the aquatic challenge? It dissapeared, I think.

Siegel
2008-11-11, 10:06 AM
Ascesor of the Dragons
Leaders of legend
Mundane Planetrevellers
Feytouched
Dwarfy dwarfyness

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-11, 04:59 PM
Sounds like you don't like casters. Heh.

It's not that so much as I'm annoyed that it's a rare build here that isn't reliant on full spellcasting; be it in the form of persisted buffs, race-granted casting, stacked metamagic one-round-KOs, or having a spell for -every- occasion. After trying out Iron Heroes, where the standard class "don't need no stinking magic," D&D 3.5's mandatory Christmas tree of magic items and grossly overpowered casters leave a sour taste.

I like playing casters (the Beguiler especially is great fun), but I don't like how playing a noncaster is asking to be an assistant rather than a hero.

Also, I'd like to think that at least some of the ideas I posted would force people to think outside the box, just a bit. Numbers 2 and 5, at least.

monty
2008-11-11, 09:15 PM
Half-Celestial Saint Human
Unarmed Swordsage 20 // LA 6 / Crusader 4 / Apostle of Peace 10
Starting abilities: Str 14 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 20 Cha 18
Level 20: Str 14 Dex 14 Con 22 Int 14 Wis 35 Cha 28

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s) | Exalted Bonus Feats
1 | Swordsage 1 | LA 1 | Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty | Nymph's Kiss
2 | Swordsage 2 | LA 2 || Vow of Nonviolence
3 | Swordsage 3 | LA 3 | Adaptive Style
4 | Swordsage 4 | LA 4 || Vow of Peace
5 | Swordsage 5 | Crusader 1
6 | Swordsage 6 | Crusader 2 | Subduing Strike | Intuitive Attack
7 | Swordsage 7 | LA (Saint) 1
8 | Swordsage 8 | LA (Saint) 2 || Touch of Golden Ice
9 | Swordsage 9 | Apostle of Peace 1 | Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack)
10 | Swordsage 10 | Apostle of Peace 2 || Nimbus of Light
11 | Swordsage 11 | Apostle of Peace 3
12 | Swordsage 12 | Apostle of Peace 4 | Quicken Spell | Holy Radiance
13 | Swordsage 13 | Apostle of Peace 5
14 | Swordsage 14 | Apostle of Peace 6 || Words of Creation
15 | Swordsage 15 | Apostle of Peace 7 | Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
16 | Swordsage 16 | Apostle of Peace 8 || Sanctify Martial Strike
17 | Swordsage 17 | Apostle of Peace 9
18 | Swordsage 18 | Apostle of Peace 10 | Extra Turning | Vow of Obedience
19 | Swordsage 19 | Crusader 3
20 | Swordsage 20 | Crusader 4 || Vow of Chastity[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 4d10+16d8+120
BAB +16
Base Saves: Fort +11 Ref +12 Will +12
AC 52 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +10 exalted, +3 deflection, +24 Wis) touch 39, flat-footed 50

Vow of Poverty, Vow of Peace, Saint, Half-Celestial...it's hard to get more good than that. With a calm emotions aura, +lots to spell DCs, and Subduing strike, defeating enemies without killing them (unless they're undead - then all bets are off) should be easy.

All the defenses from Saint and Vow of Poverty alone make him practically untouchable - resistance, mind shielding, damage reduction, energy resistance, freedom of movement, true seeing, fast healing, energy immunities, double-strength magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability, not to mention a very respectable AC.

With no need to eat, drink, or breathe, and no need for magic items, he's more or less totally self-sufficient. With 9th level divine spellcasting (and high DCs), swordsage maneuvers (and Wis to hit), and 8+Int skill points per level (after human and Nymph's Kiss), he's pretty much a one-man party.

jcsw
2008-11-12, 02:13 AM
This sounds like a job for Stalker of Karash's Favored Enemy - Evil!
Sadly I've got to go overseas soon, so I can't put out a fully fleshed out build... but:

Ranger 2/Scout 18//Saint 2/Swordsage 1/Bloodclaw Master 2/Stalker of Karash 2/Bloodclaw Master +3/Swordsage 9/Eidolon 1

Left Side is a standard Swift Hunter Build.

Would have favored enemy - evil at +9, Full Skirmish and the other features of a scout 18, initiator level 15, saint properties...

I'm away from books now, but for feats, take the Trophy Hunter (or whatever it's called) which allows you to take the head of one of your favored enemies to gain your Favored Enemy bonus on intimidate checks. (This is from dragon magazine +10 Cheese Points!)

Then get the item which doubles favored enemy bonuses, belt of Hatred or something (Also dragon, +20 Cheese Points)

Then take the feat from Drow of the Underdark which makes things you intimidate cower in fear for one round and become shaken the next!

If you have maxed ranks in intimidate, you receive a +23+18(Favored Enemy)+10(Eidolon)+7(Reasonable Cha, after saint)=+58 to intimidate Evil Creatures, which makes them cower in fear for one round.

Swordsage maneuvers gain you enough mobility to use skirmish well, and if you take Favored Dodge you can gain a +18 AC dodge bonus against evil creatures.

Fishy
2008-11-12, 05:42 AM
War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.

O'Brien, Lawful Good Human

Psion(Telepath) 20//Rogue 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Exorcist of the Silver Flame 4/Mindspy 1/Psibond Agent 10

INT = CHA > Wis >= 13

Levelling Table:{table]Psion 1|Rogue 1|Illithid Heritage, Illithid Compulsion, Psionic Endowment
Psion 2|Cloistered Cleric | Exorcism and Protection domains, Knowledge devotion
Psion 3|Rogue 2|Merciful Strike
Psion 4|Rogue 3
Psion 5|Rogue 4|Telepathic Communication (Alternate Class Feature)
Psion 6|EotSF 1|Mindsense
Psion 7|EotSF 2
Psion 8|EotSF 3
Psion 9|EotSF 4|Ability Focus: Detect Thoughts
Psion 10|Mindspy 1|Psionic Meditation
Psion 11|PsiAg 1
Psion 12|PsiAg 2|Ability Focus: Psibond
Psion 13|PsiAg 3
Psion 14|PsiAg 4
Psion 15|PsiAg 5|Greater Psionic Endowment, Sudden Ability Focus
Psion 16|PsiAg 6
Psion 17|PsiAg 7
Psion 18|PsiAg 8|Sudden Ability Focus
Psion 19|PsiAg 9
Psion 20|PsiAg 10|Psionic Body?[/table]

Level 20 stats:BAB: +15, Fort: +9, Ref: +11, Will +12
Hit die: 5d8+15d6
Sneak Attack: 5d6

O'Brien is a model citizen! With Forgery and Psionic Modify Memory, he is able to assist the Ministry of Truth in their control of the past! With Bluff and Perform(Oratory), he is a doubleplusgood duckspeaker! But most importantly, with Detect Thoughts at will and maintained as a free action, he is able to detect thoughtcrime as it happens! And with nudge, Suggestion and Dominate as at-will supernatural abilities, he is able to rehabilitate thought-criminals into productive members of society who love Big Brother!

I'm probably a bad person that this is the first thing I thought of, but hey. He's playable and able to make friends and influence people right from level 1. He's a decent skillmonkey until level 6, which is when his cooler at-will abilities start coming on line, and of course he's a full manifester and that's always nice.

monty
2008-11-12, 10:20 AM
stuff

...I forfeit.

Kesnit
2008-11-12, 01:23 PM
monty: You have to pay off LA before you can take class levels, so the right side as written isn't valid. Since I'm not familiar with the Saint template, I don't know if you can just swap the Saint and Crusader levels.


No classes that give access to 9th-level spell/manifesting/(etc?) progression

I would love to see that!


Arcane/divine spellcasting does not function

What do you mean by this?

monty
2008-11-12, 01:36 PM
monty: You have to pay off LA before you can take class levels, so the right side as written isn't valid. Since I'm not familiar with the Saint template, I don't know if you can just swap the Saint and Crusader levels.

Saint is an acquired template, so it's not there from the start. You can't add it to a character until level 6.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-11-12, 01:58 PM
What do you mean by this?

Classes with arcane/divine casting would not be banned, but for the purpose of the contest their spellcasting would be "turned off." So, you could still take Druid levels for the animal companion and wildshape, but you're not getting casting out of the deal.

Basically, a way to try a "noncaster answer" without prohibiting classes like the Hexblade, Paladin, or Ranger. Also, Druid is still worthwhile. Of course.

Kesnit
2008-11-12, 02:32 PM
Saint is an acquired template, so it's not there from the start. You can't add it to a character until level 6.

Ah, OK. As I said, I'm not familiar with it. :smallredface:


Classes with arcane/divine casting would not be banned, but for the purpose of the contest their spellcasting would be "turned off." So, you could still take Druid levels for the animal companion and wildshape, but you're not getting casting out of the deal.

Basically, a way to try a "noncaster answer" without prohibiting classes like the Hexblade, Paladin, or Ranger. Also, Druid is still worthwhile. Of course.

Very nice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-12, 11:52 PM
Sir Theo Aspire, Holy Champion of Truth and Justice
I don't fight because I want to. I fight because someone has to stand between the innocent and the forces of evil. I don't lead because I want to, I lead because at least then I can make sure that someone at the top cares for the common trooper.

LG Human Crusader20//Bard1/Marshall14/Legendary Leader5

Sir Theo is a champion of the civilian and innocent, leading forces to defend them. He's very good at leading troops, gaining their personal loyalty, and making effective tactical and strategic decisions. He doesn't face his foes one-on-one, he marshalls an army to stand against the forces of evil, to protect the life and liberty of his people and his allies, and to be a shining example of what a martial leader should be.

It's late, so I'll stat him out more completely in the morning, but basically he leans heavily to White Raven, taking Leadership at level 6 to qualify for Legendary Leader later on. He has a number of auras which are active,

He's also very hard to take down personally. He's got Charisma to all saves, Mettle, and will probably take a feat to take the Diamond Mind maneuver which lets him make a Concentration check in place of a Reflex save.

Draz74
2008-11-13, 05:12 PM
I'd have likely gone bard or marshall opposite Crusader, but I don't have the stats on Marshall, and I figured Warpriest was better for group stuff than Bard

Stats on Marshal. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)

Also, a Bard dip and the Song of the White Raven feat might still be worthwhile to throw in.

Fishy
2008-11-14, 09:02 PM
You know, I don't think I perverted this exercise enough with my last entry.

On Earth, Good and Evil are tricky things that have resisted definition from generations of philosophers. In D&D, Good and Evil are objective, elemental forces, so we have things like this:


A cleric of neutral alignment can either turn undead but not rebuke them, or rebuke undead but not turn them. See Turn or Rebuke Undead for more information.

Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) and channeling negative energy is evil.

So, moving right along:

Ylla Kittenbane, LG Elf
Soulknife/Paladin/Illumine Soul/Soulbow//Fighter/Cloistered Cleric

Stats:Wisdom is Ylla's casting stat, and she also gets it to attack and damage, so she tries to keep that as high as possible. Charisma makes her Turning better, and improves her saves (Sorta), but it's not as big a priority. She needs at least 13 Intelligence for one of her more amusing feats, and thanks to heavy armor, she doesn't care about Dexterity at all.

Levelling Table:{table]Soulknife 1|Fighter 1|Elf Dilettante, (Zen Archery), (WF: Mind Blade)
Soulknife 2|CCleric 1|Elf Domain (Point Blank Shot), Knowledge Devotion, Spontaneous Variant: Deathless Domain
Soulknife 3|CCleric 2|Focused Mind Strike
Paladin 2|CCleric 3|Elf substitution for Ranged Smite
Paladin 3|CCleric 4
Illumine 1|CCleric 5|Psionic Meditation
Soulbow 1|CCleric 6|(Psionic Shot)
Soulbow 2|CCleric 7
Soulbow 3|CCleric 8|Swift Mind Strike, (Greater Psionic Shot)
Soulbow 4|CCleric 9
Soulbow 5|CCleric 10|(Precise Shot)
Soulbow 6|CCleric 11|Corpsecrafter
Soulbow 7|CCleric 12|(Far Shot)
Soulbow 8|CCleric 13
Soulbow 9|CCleric 14|Nimble Bones, (Sharp Shooting)
Soulbow 10|CCleric 15
Illumine 2|CCleric 16
Illumine 3|CCleric 17|Deadly Chill
Illumine 4|CCleric 18
Illumine 5|CCleric 19[/table]

Level 20 stats:BAB: +15, Fort: +12, Ref: +10, Will: +12, HD: 20d10

Levels 1-5: Not Good EnoughIn her early career, Ylla is a mildly psionic holy warrior, who equally trains her mind and body. She has full saves, great hit points, a respectable number of skill points and some interesting lists to spend them on.

The Elf Dilettante feat means she has one virtual rank in everything from Knowledge(Subspecies of Giant Venomous Centipede) to Knowledge(Local:This Room), so she is always able to use Knowledge Devotion for at least a +1 or +2 to attack and damage, for every monster of every encounter.

She can either get a longbow and snipe from afar, or put on heavy armor and her Mind Blade and wade through the front lines. There's a little bit of a lack of synergy between her ranged and melee abilities, but otherwise she's a powerful force for good.

But not Good.

Levels 6-11: Lasers!At level 6, Ylla takes her first level in Illumine Soul, and forms a permanent link to the Positive Energy Plane, imbuing her mind blade with the power of elemental goodness.

At level 7, Ylla can shoot you in the face with Goodness.

No, really. Every time she uses Mind Strike, she's pulling Positive Energy from the Positive Energy Plane to the Material, which, RAW, is a good act. If the bolt of beauty, goodness and light happens to stab Mother Theresa, that's just an unfortunate consequence.

Soulbow is the best prestige class ever. At level 8, Ylla gets her Kittenbane arrows, and probably breaks her paladin's vows a few times. She also gets a ton of bonus feats, but because of her low dexterity, can't take the Rapid Shot tree. So, she'll spend most of her time alternately charging up Mind Strike and Psionic Shot, and blasting people with overwhelmingly violent Goodness.

Levels 12+: Crush Them, My Slaves!At level 12, Ylla can spontaneously convert her cleric spells into Create Deathless.

She can murder orphans, with Goodness, animate their corpses, with Goodness, and enslave the minds of the resulting abominations to her will, using Goodness.

This is around when she goes mad with power.

Please note that in no way does this post imply any sort of approval of this behavior.

Charlie Kemek
2008-11-15, 06:36 PM
Not the greatest of builders, I will try.

Tortle Cloistered cleric 6/Radiant servant of pelor 10/Cloistered cleric 4//Divine bard 5/evangelist 1/divine bard 10/evangelist 4
abilities
Str: 8
Con: 14->22
Dex: 12->20
Int: 10
Wis: 20->38
Chr: 13->24
Domains: Good, Glory, Knowledge, Sun
Feats
Take VoP at highest level possible. take a bunch of exalted feats along the way, and also get a bunch of manuals of *ability score*, and then take Vow of poverty.

Loves to go and scry and kill undead people, doing a bunch of damage to them with automatically maximized Cure critical wounds etc., and the awesome turn undead, with exalted feats.

monty
2008-11-15, 10:33 PM
Take VoP at highest level possible. take a bunch of exalted feats along the way, and also get a bunch of manuals of *ability score*, and then take Vow of poverty.

:smallannoyed: For shame...

dspeyer
2008-11-17, 03:10 AM
Mazarini
Race: half-celestial human
Classes: beguiler 20 // la 4 / swashbuckler 3 / apostle of peace 4 / prestige paladin 3 / hospitaler 6
Initial stats: STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 18 INT: 18 WIS: 18 CHA: 12
Level 20 stats: STR: 12 DEX: 22 CON: 18 INT: 30 WIS: 22 CHA: 14
Important feats: vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, subduing strike

Arcane: full beguiler casting with VoN to boost DCs

Divine: full AoP casting (yes, it adds up to that)

Melee: subduing strike, BAB 16, insightful strike

Skills: high-int human beguiler

Hopefully, all of this together is enough to stop the not-especially-evil nations of the world from going to war with one another.

Note: paladin is really there to make hospitaler's mounted aspects work with VoP's horselessness.

BobVosh
2008-11-17, 03:37 AM
Gestalt Challenge ideas:
1. The Samurai: Build as best as possible, all emphasis on making a samurai not the actual class
2. Kitchen Sink 2.0; Unmask Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633): have the most abilities (preference of useful) with the least amount of multiclassing. No factotums or chameleons (just because they already do...you know, everything).

More later..probably