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Heliomance
2008-11-11, 11:40 AM
Am I reading the class right? So far as I can make out, you can get into Ur-Priest at level six with a human Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Wizard 2 with Able Learner. This then means that you have 9th level cleric spells at level 14. That's truly disgusting.

RMS Oceanic
2008-11-11, 11:44 AM
You haven't even fully abused its power, although it's slightly balanced by having fewer high-level spells per day. Take Wizard to level 9 (Enough to make the fort/will requirements), dip two levels in Ur Priest, then Mystic Theruge the rest of the way. By Level 19 you have 9th level arcane and divine spells!

kamikasei
2008-11-11, 11:45 AM
It is a fairly ridiculous class, but was certainly intended to be harder to get in to than that. It's the combination of Factotum and a PrC with awkward skill prereqs that's making it look so bad.

Heliomance
2008-11-11, 11:47 AM
You could do the same with Bard.

AKA_Bait
2008-11-11, 11:48 AM
You could do the same with Bard.

Yes you can. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4880651)

Heliomance
2008-11-11, 11:49 AM
I meant the level 6 entry. Bard 1/Fighter 2/Wizard 2 gets in at sixth level, gaining 9th level spells 5 levels earlier than anything has a right to.

kamikasei
2008-11-11, 11:51 AM
I'll have to look up the prereqs when I get home and see if there isn't something besides the skills that make it hard to get in to.

Heliomance
2008-11-11, 11:53 AM
You need:
Two feats
Fort and Will +3
5 ranks in two skills, 6 ranks in one skill, and 8 ranks in two skills, all of which are on the bard spell list.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-11, 12:00 PM
*idly wonders if one could go Factotum 1/Shadowcaster 2/Fighter 2/Ur-Priest 2/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3 for double advancements.*

Coplantor
2008-11-11, 12:28 PM
Let's see, I'm a horrible DM, and i allowed a player of mine to create a 12 level character. He did some combinations between wizard, Ur, theurge and swashbuckler. The guy killed a CR 21 dragon in one round.

Scaboroth
2008-11-12, 02:47 AM
You're not a horrible DM. Exploding a dragon's head in one round is a classic at my gaming table.

Frosty
2008-11-12, 03:00 AM
Warlock can also get the skills needed methinks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 05:08 AM
Ur-Priest is not as unbalancing as it at first appears. Look at it this way:

Character Level 6, Ur-Priest 1 with 1st level spells, everyone else has 3rd;
Character Level 7, Ur-Priest 2 with 2nd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 8, Ur-Priest 3 with 3rd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 9, Ur-Priest 4 with 4th level spells, everyone else has 5th;
Character Level 10, Ur-Priest 5 with 5th level spells, everyone else has 5th,
congratulations, half way through your adventuring career you've finally caught up with everyone else.

Character Level 11, Ur-Priest 6 with 6th level spells, everyone else has 6th;
Character Level 12, Ur-Priest 7 with 7th level spells, everyone else has 6th,
congratulations, you've finally pulled ahead of everyone else on highest level spells, at a level that most characters never even reach in the fist place.

Character Level 13, Ur-Priest 8 with 8th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 14, Ur-Priest 9 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 15, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 16, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 17, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 9th,
they've caught back up, you were ahead by a total of five character levels, 1/4 of your adventuring career, for the price of being behind everyone else for the fist half of your adventuring career.

You'd be better off going Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-12, 05:16 AM
Ur-Priest is not as unbalancing as it at first appears. Look at it this way:

Character Level 6, Ur-Priest 1 with 1st level spells, everyone else has 3rd;
Character Level 7, Ur-Priest 2 with 2nd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 8, Ur-Priest 3 with 3rd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 9, Ur-Priest 4 with 4th level spells, everyone else has 5th;
Character Level 10, Ur-Priest 5 with 5th level spells, everyone else has 5th,
congratulations, half way through your adventuring career you've finally caught up with everyone else.

Character Level 11, Ur-Priest 6 with 6th level spells, everyone else has 6th;
Character Level 12, Ur-Priest 7 with 7th level spells, everyone else has 6th,
congratulations, you've finally pulled ahead of everyone else on highest level spells, at a level that most characters never even reach in the fist place.

Character Level 13, Ur-Priest 8 with 8th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 14, Ur-Priest 9 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 15, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 16, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 17, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 9th,
they've caught back up, you were ahead by a total of five character levels, 1/4 of your adventuring career, for the price of being behind everyone else for the fist half of your adventuring career.

You'd be better off going Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 anyway.Keep in mind though that they get far more free levels to play with. Psychic Warrior 4/Monk 1/Ur-Priest 10/X 5 gets a lot of benefits compared to a normal Cleric. Not to mention the obscenities that can be done with PrCs and similar.

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 05:17 AM
There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 05:18 AM
An oldschool gamer friend of mine came over when I was playing BG2 about a year ago and I was on the Suldanesselar dragon. I told him I was going to drop it in one round, he didn't believe me. I ran everyone in tanks first, paused before the dialogue started (refresh rate was turned up), ordered all three of my mages to use their Spell Sequencers on it (each had Flame Arrow x3), the arrows were in the air when the dialogue started, I clicked through it, and the dragon hit the dirt, a charred husk of its former glory. My friend didn't even have any words to describe his amazement.

Edit: my super lag made me double post without me even noticing...

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 05:27 AM
/me fails to see what that has to do with Ur-Priests.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 05:41 AM
/me fails to see what that has to do with Ur-Priests.

There were some people talking about dropping a dragon in one round, I'd tried posting but thought my lag ate it, so I took the time to tack the story onto the end of my post. When it finally did post, I saw that my earlier attempt had worked after all, so I edited out the redundant portion, leaving only the story...

BobVosh
2008-11-12, 05:46 AM
There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

Methinks you are doing your 9th level spells wrong. A 5th lvl spell would work fine. Teleport. I would like to see pallies keep up with that.

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 06:05 AM
They'll keep showing up though. They'll interrupt you when you're trying to adventure, or whatever. And eventually they'll catch you when you're out of spells. And that's assuming they don't just bring along someone to cast Dimensional Anchor.

Weiser_Cain
2008-11-12, 06:20 AM
at which point I stop the game and tell ken or whoever is DMing why he let me make an Ur-priest if he was just going to try and kill off my character specifically. What with the Ur-priest shaped traps, the random doors to Celestia in place of tavern bathrooms, pools of poisoned divine juice...

Zeta Kai
2008-11-12, 07:00 AM
They'll keep showing up though. They'll interrupt you when you're trying to adventure, or whatever. And eventually they'll catch you when you're out of spells. And that's assuming they don't just bring along someone to cast Dimensional Anchor.

Yeah, that's not an issue with the religious of the world hating you. That's an issue with the DM hating you. If your DM allows an Ur-Priest in their game without comment, you have a legitimate argument against excessive retribution.

Eldariel
2008-11-12, 07:08 AM
*idly wonders if one could go Factotum 1/Shadowcaster 2/Fighter 2/Ur-Priest 2/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3 for double advancements.*

There was actually an old Char Ops thread on building Triple Threats and Quad Threats.

Talya
2008-11-12, 10:07 AM
You haven't even fully abused its power, although it's slightly balanced by having fewer high-level spells per day. Take Wizard to level 9 (Enough to make the fort/will requirements), dip two levels in Ur Priest, then Mystic Theruge the rest of the way. By Level 19 you have 9th level arcane and divine spells!


...so an actually cheesy, viable use for Mystic Theurge?

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 10:38 AM
Yeah, that's not an issue with the religious of the world hating you. That's an issue with the DM hating you. If your DM allows an Ur-Priest in their game without comment, you have a legitimate argument against excessive retribution.

Oh, I agree the DM should warn you in advance that if you make an Ur-Priest, every faith in existance will be out for your hide. But looking at it from an in-game perspective, if you were the high priest of a church - or even a god - would you put up with someone stealing your god's/your power? I really don't think so. Anything other than attempted termination with extreme prejudice breaks verisimilitude somewhat.

BrainFreeze
2008-11-12, 11:18 AM
I wouldnt call it the DM hating you, perhaps you should have read the background before picking the class.

For some reason i cant see servents of Pelor allowing the injustice that is you to live.

Vinotaur
2008-11-12, 12:28 PM
1) How on earth do they know you are an Ur-Priest?

2) How do they know where to find you?

3) Having People attack you is not a disadvantage. This is D&D, someone will be attacking you. It's comparatively an advantage to know who is going to attack you, especially when your class gives you spell resistance against those people.

If your DM makes encounters that are above CR guidelines then your DM is being a jerk. If they are within CR guidelines, then you kill Paladins instead of Fighters and you still get XP.

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-12, 12:52 PM
No one's even bothered with Binder 2/Wizard 1 or Binder 1/Hexblade 2? You meet over half of the requirements by 3rd level, the only thing you need is ranks in the right skills.

Oh, and Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader (or Swordsage) 2/Ur-priest 2/Contemplative 1/War-priest 1/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5=Uber Gish.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-12, 12:54 PM
1) How on earth do they know you are an Ur-Priest?

2) How do they know where to find you?

3) Having People attack you is not a disadvantage. This is D&D, someone will be attacking you. It's comparatively an advantage to know who is going to attack you, especially when your class gives you spell resistance against those people.

If your DM makes encounters that are above CR guidelines then your DM is being a jerk. If they are within CR guidelines, then you kill Paladins instead of Fighters and you still get XP.

1) More powerful you get the more you drain, eventually the god will notice and inform his followers.

2) There is a whole school called Divination that'd likely be directed towards finding you.

3)This is a good point, unless they start doing something completely silly and hire other people who you can't defend against after the first couple cleric/paladin groups get thrashed. :smalltongue:

If they are consistently within CR guidelines then he's not being a jerk, he's being soft. People notice if they send progressively stronger people to murder you that you keep on squeeking by, eventually they'll just calling extraplanar help or some such to 'end it once and for all'. The trick isn't to defeat the people they send after you, it's to evade them so they DON'T send the big guns after you. That way they think your still too weak to be a REAL threat which is why you are hiding.

Adumbration
2008-11-12, 01:01 PM
Is there any way to double up Sublime Chord and Ur-priest with Mystic Theurge? Get a level each on Sublime and Ur, then go up MT 9? Or are the requirements too steep?

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-12, 01:31 PM
Is there any way to double up Sublime Chord and Ur-priest with Mystic Theurge? Get a level each on Sublime and Ur, then go up MT 9? Or are the requirements too steep?

CO did a Sublime Chord/Ur-priest/Mystic Theurge build before, but good luck getting DMM: Persist in there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-12, 02:14 PM
The standard build that I use for that. Savage Bard 1/Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Sublime Chord 1/MT 9.
There's a lot of flexibility in the levels, too. All you really need is Bard 1/Arcane class enough to get 3rd level spells/Ur-Priest 2/level until 10/Sublime Chord 1/MT until 20. The only thing you need to watch is the Prerequisites. You need to make sure you have the saves.

Talya
2008-11-12, 02:47 PM
The standard build that I use for that. Savage Bard 1/Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Sublime Chord 1/MT 9.
There's a lot of flexibility in the levels, too. All you really need is Bard 1/Arcane class enough to get 3rd level spells/Ur-Priest 2/level until 10/Sublime Chord 1/MT until 20. The only thing you need to watch is the Prerequisites. You need to make sure you have the saves.



Wouldn't there be four wasted spell levels there? You only need 6 levels of Mystic Theurge to max out ur-priest casting after you have Ur-Priest 4...

What if you found a way to take 3 ultimate magus levels after 6 theurge levels? Then you could boost both sublime chord and wizard...

Vinotaur
2008-11-12, 03:58 PM
1) More powerful you get the more you drain, eventually the god will notice and inform his followers.

2) There is a whole school called Divination that'd likely be directed towards finding you.

3)This is a good point, unless they start doing something completely silly and hire other people who you can't defend against after the first couple cleric/paladin groups get thrashed. :smalltongue:

If they are consistently within CR guidelines then he's not being a jerk, he's being soft. People notice if they send progressively stronger people to murder you that you keep on squeeking by, eventually they'll just calling extraplanar help or some such to 'end it once and for all'. The trick isn't to defeat the people they send after you, it's to evade them so they DON'T send the big guns after you. That way they think your still too weak to be a REAL threat which is why you are hiding.

1) If a God could notice you stealing from him, he could stop you, clearly he does not.

2) There is a whole spell called Non-Detection which combined with the very high CLs of most of these builds results in no one finding you.

3) There are two possibilities:

a) DM: Because you are an Ur-Priest you have enemies, God X sends a Solar to kill you. He appears, roll init.
Player: But I'm only level 10.
DM: Tough luck, shouldn't have chosen a character class that has enemies.

b) DM: As above, replace Solar with Justice Archon or some other level appropriate enemy.
Player: I do X.
Game as normal.

One of those is DM fail, the other is exactly like every other character.

You guys are making a huge deal of the fact that Ur-Priests have enemies. But so does everyone else.

1) Vecna noticed that you are a Paladin, he does not like Paladins.

2) He tells some Clerics to Divine you, they do, then they scry you, then they send 40 level 20 Clerics to kill your Paladin ass because apparently you have enemies, and if your enemies are within the CR system then your DM is coddling you.

The same can be said of any class or character. Everyone has enemies, the point is that your enemies are within the CR guidelines for two reasons.

1) The game is only playable that way.
2) You are worth exactly that. The Infinite Celestial Hosts have on lot on their plate, including Infinite Devils Armies and Infinite Demon Hordes. They can't afford to dispatch a Solar to deal with a CR 10 character because that Solar has to go deal with some Evil level 20 Wizard who is going to hit level 21 and develop an Epic Spell that permanently calls and enslaves Solars.

So all they can send against your Savage Bard 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 5 is a couple Justice Archons, or whatever the appropriate CR enemy is.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-12, 03:59 PM
Wouldn't there be four wasted spell levels there? You only need 6 levels of Mystic Theurge to max out ur-priest casting after you have Ur-Priest 4...

Technically. Sure, you're not gaining any slots, but your CL is still rising.

Lycar
2008-11-12, 04:10 PM
Yeah, that's not an issue with the religious of the world hating you. That's an issue with the DM hating you. If your DM allows an Ur-Priest in their game without comment, you have a legitimate argument against excessive retribution.

No you don't. Not at all.

DM passing the choice without comment? And he did waive the REQUIREMENT of your character having to be trained by one pre-existing Ur-Priest?

Well, perhaps he read the description and figured something along the lines of 'Huh. Pretty neat spell progression. But what's this? Required alignement evil?
Hmm... so this class powers itself by stealing power from real gods? Heh, this should be fun. Makes for an intersting campaign at least. Works for me.'

So you conveniently 'forgot' about the in-game drawbacks of the class? Or did you hope your GM would somehow not have them come up? Then it's your own, damn fault and you have no right to complain whatsoever.

Do you cry when the law tries to hang your assassin for being a murderous criminal too?

There is a lot of broken stuff floating around. Some of the fluff of many classes, prestige or otherwise, just doesn't really fit in with the rest, or with your GM's homebrew world. Does that mean he is going to ignore it for your benefit? Maybe. Maybe not. But 'no comment' should tell you that you buy that class 'as is', with all the strings and hooks attached. You want power? Sure... if you are willing to pay the price...

And a good Gm also should not be reluctant to punish players who pick their domains for the powers they get rather then for the philosophical concepts they represent, and then fail to live up to them. Their god ought to be a bit reluctant to share his power with someoen who really does not spread his faith after all.

But that is an attitude of entitlement that is really ruining some games: Players insist on having access to everything ever published. Usually the same players who cry 'foul!' when the same stuff is used on them in turn.

And people, some prestige classes come with hooks attached. Deal. Or play something different. You have no right to demand your GM goes soft on you when the time comes to pay the price for your choices...

Lycar

Draz74
2008-11-12, 04:30 PM
Easiest way to get into Ur-Priest at Level 6: Probably a pure Cloistered Cleric, who sins greviously enough to become an Ex-Cleric just before he gets to Level 6. No one will ever do this, though, because it leaves you with no benefits except skill points from your first 5 levels.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-12, 05:49 PM
...so an actually cheesy, viable use for Mystic Theurge?
Yep. "Standard" builds are:
Fighter-1/Wizard-4/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane PrC-X
Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane PrC-X


Is there any way to double up Sublime Chord and Ur-priest with Mystic Theurge? Get a level each on Sublime and Ur, then go up MT 9? Or are the requirements too steep?
Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-5/Arcane PrC (Sublime Chord - or more Sublime Chord)-4
Requirements are a little touchy, but it's doable.

Easiest way to get into Ur-Priest at Level 6: Probably a pure Cloistered Cleric, who sins greviously enough to become an Ex-Cleric just before he gets to Level 6. No one will ever do this, though, because it leaves you with no benefits except skill points from your first 5 levels.Do note that needs to be "of trickery"; you also pick up hit points, saves, and BAB. But yeah - nobody really does this deliberately.

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 06:56 PM
No you don't. Not at all.

DM passing the choice without comment? And he did waive the REQUIREMENT of your character having to be trained by one pre-existing Ur-Priest?

Well, perhaps he read the description and figured something along the lines of 'Huh. Pretty neat spell progression. But what's this? Required alignement evil?
Hmm... so this class powers itself by stealing power from real gods? Heh, this should be fun. Makes for an intersting campaign at least. Works for me.'

So you conveniently 'forgot' about the in-game drawbacks of the class? Or did you hope your GM would somehow not have them come up? Then it's your own, damn fault and you have no right to complain whatsoever.

Do you cry when the law tries to hang your assassin for being a murderous criminal too?

There is a lot of broken stuff floating around. Some of the fluff of many classes, prestige or otherwise, just doesn't really fit in with the rest, or with your GM's homebrew world. Does that mean he is going to ignore it for your benefit? Maybe. Maybe not. But 'no comment' should tell you that you buy that class 'as is', with all the strings and hooks attached. You want power? Sure... if you are willing to pay the price...

And a good Gm also should not be reluctant to punish players who pick their domains for the powers they get rather then for the philosophical concepts they represent, and then fail to live up to them. Their god ought to be a bit reluctant to share his power with someoen who really does not spread his faith after all.

But that is an attitude of entitlement that is really ruining some games: Players insist on having access to everything ever published. Usually the same players who cry 'foul!' when the same stuff is used on them in turn.

And people, some prestige classes come with hooks attached. Deal. Or play something different. You have no right to demand your GM goes soft on you when the time comes to pay the price for your choices...

Lycar

This. You have said exactly what I was thinking, far more eloquently than I could have put it. Why would the church keep within CR guidlelines? They want you dead. If you beat the first force they send out, they're going to send something gnarlier.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 07:30 PM
How do the churches know that your character is the one who's been stealing their spells? It specifically says that they're canny and cunning, never taking enough from any one deity's followers to draw notice. He could even pretend to worship some made-up deity from a far away land, and appear in every way to be a legitimate cleric. No, simply having levels in Ur-Priest is not enough reason for a DM to send a crusade or an inquisition or whatever after a PC, a player would have to do something stupid in-character to warrant such attention.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-12, 07:35 PM
This. You have said exactly what I was thinking, far more eloquently than I could have put it. Why would the church keep within CR guidlelines? They want you dead. If you beat the first force they send out, they're going to send something gnarlier.

So every church in the setting teams up to take this guy down? Cause otherwise the church is going to get taken down when every organization that has a grudge against them hits them while the Church isn't looking. Plus, really? That's how your setting works? So, a thief steals from the church collection plate, and suddenly a crusade goes against him. Wow, sucks to b e your players.

Heliomance
2008-11-12, 07:52 PM
Uh, stealing small change from the collection plate is slightly less serious than stealing god's power.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-12, 07:53 PM
Uh, stealing small change from the collection plate is slightly less serious than stealing god's power.

Yeah, but fluff states for the Ur-Priest that they do their theft sneakily to avoid notice. Even the gods are fallible in D&D.

Vinotaur
2008-11-12, 08:03 PM
This. You have said exactly what I was thinking, far more eloquently than I could have put it. Why would the church keep within CR guidlelines? They want you dead. If you beat the first force they send out, they're going to send something gnarlier.

And there is no reason that Demons should adhere to CR guidelines. Or Devils. Or The Lich and his undead minions.

Except you know, the game isn't playable if CR 20 monsters are Teleport ambushing level 10 PCs.

Swok
2008-11-12, 08:16 PM
And you still don't have how crusades omnisciently know the location of every Ur-Priest, and even that they are Ur-Priests. iirc, the class specifically mentions that they masquerade as Clerics.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-12, 09:10 PM
And you still don't have how crusades omnisciently know the location of every Ur-Priest, and even that they are Ur-Priests. iirc, the class specifically mentions that they masquerade as Clerics.

They do not need to know the location of EVERY Ur-priest, just you for it to matter. What are the chances of Ur-priests working together? Practically nil so various churches can't wait for one big congregation to wipe out all at once. They have to pick'em off piecemeal.

And for the record, no disguise is perfect.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-12, 09:16 PM
And for the record, no disguise is perfect.
Perfect? No. Good enough to throw off enough resources that it's statistically unlikely that there will be enough who're convinced YOU are the one that's siphoning power that you're probably not going to be completely overwhelmed? Sure. After all, it's not like every cleric takes the word of some random dude as gospel. If you can fool most, you're good.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 09:22 PM
1. Any given Ur-Priest does not siphon off enough magic from any one individual, church, or religion to be noticed. Even all of the Ur-Priests in the world combined do not take enough to be noticed, or warrant the attention of any church at all.

2. Even if a given church or religious organization takes notice and decides to target Ur-Priests, they have no way of knowing that the PC specifically is an Ur-Priest unless he's done something stupid in-character.

3. In the nigh-impossible event that a given church or religious organization takes notice of Ur-Priests and becomes aware of a PC who is one, there are no laws prohibiting his practice of taking what magic is there. Being evil is not a crime, so no good-aligned church could justifiably kill him, no LN church would touch him, no NN church would care, no CN church would be organized enough to pursue him, and evil churches are too preoccupied with their own schemes to divert resources to one Ur-Priest who may have stolen a spell or two from them.

Sending a crusade against a PC because he has levels in Ur-Priest is a sure sign of a BAD DM.

Riffington
2008-11-12, 09:34 PM
there are no laws prohibiting his practice of taking what magic is there.

I imagine that if deities or churches became aware that someone was stealing their power, there would indeed be laws prohibiting this practice.

Think of it as tax evasion, or as hacking into the FBI to change some criminal records around... if you pick a character with this kind of habit, you presumably want the thrill of keeping one step ahead of the game.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 10:02 PM
I imagine that if deities or churches became aware that someone was stealing their power, there would indeed be laws prohibiting this practice.

Think of it as tax evasion, or as hacking into the FBI to change some criminal records around... if you pick a character with this kind of habit, you presumably want the thrill of keeping one step ahead of the game.
There's absolutely no evidence to prove that anything was stolen, nor is there any proof that it was any particular individual doing it. Persecution of Ur-Priests would be nothing short of a witch hunt, in which dozens or even hundreds of innocents are falsely accused for every actual Ur-Priest who is accused, and those who are actually guilty are much better suited to defending themselves against the charges and being found innocent. It's more like the scam in Office Space when they tried to siphon all the fractions of cents that just got rounded off and discarded, no noticeable amount of magic is stolen by Ur-Priests, and certainly not enough to warrant an investigation.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-12, 10:04 PM
witch hunt

Like churches have ever had a problem doing just that.

Dublock
2008-11-12, 10:06 PM
Sounds like a campaign in all of itself if that happened. All about the which hunt and finding evidence to keep the party cleric alive.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-12, 10:09 PM
Churches: Some sort of Ur-Priests have been stealing the magic that our gods are granting us! We're here to hunt them down!

Local legit Cleric of an obscure deity: Honest, I worship a real deity, I haven't been stealing your magic!

Good-aligned Clerics who execute him: WTF happened to my alignment?!

gibbo88
2008-11-12, 10:11 PM
You're only essentially a con-artist or forger, albeit a good one. You are using manipulation to take what isn't yours. Sooner or later, someone is going to notice something is fishy, or your going to slip up, or a god is going to happen to notice you. You are stealing power from A GOD. Most of them are explained as all seeing beings, hence "If you tell lies Vecna will come get you in your sleep". It might not have happened to anyone, but its surely possible. There is entire classes and PrC classes devoted to protecting the interests of the church.

The way i see it, and I could be wrong, its the same as the anti-party that some DMs use to rein in out of control groups. Its not likely, if you are a high level, that other people aren't the same, and can't quest the same as you. You get a little bit too ansty around people's kingdoms and they will hire people to get you, like they hired you to get the kobalds waaaay back at lvl 1 to 4 or whatever.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-12, 10:18 PM
Seems some people have no respect for the 'sorting algorithm of evil'. Plus punishing your players for certain classes is Bad GMing.

It reminds me of these scenarios-
GM- You see a beggar.
Pally- I give him a silver.
GM- You fall. Rewrite you character sheet.
Pally- What? Why?
GM- He was evil! And the paladin fluff states that associating or helping evil makes you fall.

There`s a difference between using classes as a plot hook, and an excuse to just hose your players.

Of course, if the Ur-Priest is ruining the game by overshadowing everyone else, that`s different.

Capfalcon
2008-11-12, 10:32 PM
You guys are making a huge deal of the fact that Ur-Priests have enemies. But so does everyone else.

1) Vecna noticed that you are a Paladin, he does not like Paladins.

2) He tells some Clerics to Divine you, they do, then they scry you, then they send 40 level 20 Clerics to kill your Paladin ass because apparently you have enemies, and if your enemies are within the CR system then your DM is coddling you.

The same can be said of any class or character. Everyone has enemies, the point is that your enemies are within the CR guidelines for two reasons.

1) The game is only playable that way.
2) You are worth exactly that. The Infinite Celestial Hosts have on lot on their plate, including Infinite Devils Armies and Infinite Demon Hordes. They can't afford to dispatch a Solar to deal with a CR 10 character because that Solar has to go deal with some Evil level 20 Wizard who is going to hit level 21 and develop an Epic Spell that permanently calls and enslaves Solars.

So all they can send against your Savage Bard 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 5 is a couple Justice Archons, or whatever the appropriate CR enemy is.

This.

Seriously, I've yet to hear a good response to this. Evil deities hate paladins, so why don't they send balor assassination squads after paladin above level 10 or so?

After all, paladins have enemies.

Dublock
2008-11-12, 10:45 PM
This.

Seriously, I've yet to hear a good response to this. Evil deities hate paladins, so why don't they send balor assassination squads after paladin above level 10 or so?

After all, paladins have enemies.

Well in my view of the world, which may or may not be WoTC view as I like to think mine is logical. Everything has its balance every good its evil, every law minded person, its chaos. As good as the assassination squards may be, the good abiding person can be just as strong.

This can radically change for each campaign however so...up to the DM too.

Capfalcon
2008-11-12, 11:13 PM
Well in my view of the world, which may or may not be WoTC view as I like to think mine is logical. Everything has its balance every good its evil, every law minded person, its chaos. As good as the assassination squards may be, the good abiding person can be just as strong.

This can radically change for each campaign however so...up to the DM too.


My bad. I think you misunderstood.

Some prior posters said that Ur-Priests should be hunted down like the dirty theives they are.

In addtion, they should send overwhelming force against Ur-Priests, i.e. Solar hit squads or something.

The person I quoted asked why paladins arn't ganked by Balor hit squads.

And I have yet to see a good answer.

Vinotaur
2008-11-12, 11:21 PM
The way i see it, and I could be wrong, its the same as the anti-party that some DMs use to rein in out of control groups. Its not likely, if you are a high level, that other people aren't the same, and can't quest the same as you. You get a little bit too ansty around people's kingdoms and they will hire people to get you, like they hired you to get the kobalds waaaay back at lvl 1 to 4 or whatever.

The question isn't, "Should you be attacked by Clerics of some deity every once in a while?"

The question is, "Should those Clerics be an appropriate challenge for you, or should the DM send something so powerful that you are going to due, for sure, as punishment for choosing Ur-Priest a class with enemies?"

I said that having Divine Spellcasters hate you is not a disadvantage because everyone has someone they have to fight. I was then told that it is totally a disadvantage because the people who hate Ur-Priests are automatically higher level then everyone else, and Ur-Priests have to face CR 20 enemies when everyone else is facing CR 15, just for being Ur-Priests.


Well in my view of the world, which may or may not be WoTC view as I like to think mine is logical. Everything has its balance every good its evil, every law minded person, its chaos. As good as the assassination squards may be, the good abiding person can be just as strong.

This can radically change for each campaign however so...up to the DM too.

Actually, that's exactly the point I was making. Level 10 Paladins get attacked by CR devils. And level 10 Ur-Priests get attacked by CR 10 Angels. And that's how D&D works. Because if your DM sends a CR 10 at your level 10 character, you die no save, and then you hit your DM in the face with his own table while screaming "Hulk Smash!" (unless for some reason you aren't a Barbarian IRL, in which case I guess you could call him names or something.)

Coidzor
2008-11-12, 11:34 PM
My bad. I think you misunderstood.

Some prior posters said that Ur-Priests should be hunted down like the dirty theives they are.

In addtion, they should send overwhelming force against Ur-Priests, i.e. Solar hit squads or something.

The person I quoted asked why paladins arn't ganked by Balor hit squads.

And I have yet to see a good answer.

It's more enjoyable to corrupt them/let the ordinary monsters of the world whittle off the weak ones?

Capfalcon
2008-11-12, 11:38 PM
It's more enjoyable to corrupt them/let the ordinary monsters of the world whittle off the weak ones?

It's better to redeem them/let the ordinary monsters of the world whittle off the weak ones?

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 12:12 AM
It's better to redeem them/let the ordinary monsters of the world whittle off the weak ones?

You can't apply the same standard. Then they lose all reasons for cheating to make sure that all Ur-Priests die as soon as possible.

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 02:38 AM
This.

Seriously, I've yet to hear a good response to this. Evil deities hate paladins, so why don't they send balor assassination squads after paladin above level 10 or so?

After all, paladins have enemies.

In one of the worlds I play in, they do. Paladin players are made aware that they are a threat to the forces of evil, and will be targetted as such. A level 5 paladin gets noticed by the demons, and they start playing games to try to make them fall. At level 10 paladin, the devils get involved as well. If you manage to get to level 15 paladin, the demons and the devils start working together to try to take you down. Fluff-wise, there has only ever been one level 20 paladin in this world, the current highest level paladin only has 12 levels in the class, I think, before PrCing out.

Riffington
2008-11-13, 05:44 AM
It's more like the scam in Office Space when they tried to siphon all the fractions of cents that just got rounded off and discarded, no noticeable amount of magic is stolen by Ur-Priests, and certainly not enough to warrant an investigation.

You know that the first person who tried that scam got taken down by Superman, right?

I'm not saying you need to send Superman off someone who steals from the gods. But he's gotta know that if he does get caught, the traditional punishment for stealing from the gods is to chain him to a rock and let an eagle eat his liver... Perhaps like the Duke boys, he'll always stay one step ahead of the sheriff - but running and hiding ought to be part of the campaign.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-13, 05:50 AM
The flavor text of the class (the part that a DM could use to justify picking on an Ur-Priest) is not a set of rules, and it can easily be changed. There's an adaptation entry for it, a PC could worship a dead deity and siphon off what lingering energies it left behind which for game purposes would be a limitless amount. In that case, the character wouldn't be taking anything they're not entitled to, but they would still be just as powerful as an Ur-Priest with the standard flavor, just without giving a bully DM an excuse to pick on them.

Riffington
2008-11-13, 06:46 AM
The "flavor text" is what an Ur-Priest is.
If your DM wants to create a prestige class "Pantheist Priest", which is mechanically similar to Ur-Priest, but instead gets his power from his friendship with all the combined pantheons of the world (each deity takes turns granting his prayers, they all love him so much)... then she can surely do so. There would obviously be very different social ramifications to that class than there are to Ur-Priest.

Jack_Simth
2008-11-13, 07:21 AM
You know that the first person who tried that scam got taken down by Superman, right?
Of course, that's not why Superman took that guy down... and it was noted by the person he was harvesting cent fractions from that someone was doing something of that nature.

Granted, he was only initially caught because he did something foolish....

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 08:25 AM
In one of the worlds I play in, they do. Paladin players are made aware that they are a threat to the forces of evil, and will be targetted as such. A level 5 paladin gets noticed by the demons, and they start playing games to try to make them fall. At level 10 paladin, the devils get involved as well. If you manage to get to level 15 paladin, the demons and the devils start working together to try to take you down. Fluff-wise, there has only ever been one level 20 paladin in this world, the current highest level paladin only has 12 levels in the class, I think, before PrCing out.

That's fine. The question is, do Balors attack level 10 Paladins? Do they follow the CR guidelines for appropriate encounters. If the answer is no, why don't you have level 20 Clerics with the Mage Slaying PrC tacked on hunting every Wizard, ect.

Everyone in D&D has enemies, the point is that the enemies you fight have to be level appropriate or else you lose no matter what and you die. There is no justification for higher CR enemies against Ur-Priests then against Clerics/Wizards/anyone else.

Riffington
2008-11-13, 08:36 AM
There is no justification for higher CR enemies against Ur-Priests then against Clerics/Wizards/anyone else.
If you make it "higher-CR enemies that they can't run away from" then I agree.

Giving PCs enemies that are too hard to fight is absolutely fine - there should just be an opportunity to not have to fight them.

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 10:22 AM
If you make it "higher-CR enemies that they can't run away from" then I agree.

Giving PCs enemies that are too hard to fight is absolutely fine - there should just be an opportunity to not have to fight them.

Um. You can't run away from Higher CR enemies. Especially since they are apparently scry/teleport ambushing you all the time according to previous posters.

Not that you can run away normally, since if you don't have teleport, (which you don't at level 10) they can run you down on their mounts/with their own spells.

Running away doesn't really work pre teleport.

Riffington
2008-11-13, 10:45 AM
Um. You can't run away from Higher CR enemies. Especially since they are apparently scry/teleport ambushing you all the time according to previous posters.

Not that you can run away normally, since if you don't have teleport, (which you don't at level 10) they can run you down on their mounts/with their own spells.

Running away doesn't really work pre teleport.

I think my games work differently than yours.
There's running, hiding, disguising, bluffing, having enemies that aren't actually out to kill one another per se, etc...

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 11:07 AM
...tricking one lot of enemies into fighting another lot...

Project_Mayhem
2008-11-13, 11:22 AM
... stabbing the deadweight character in the leg so the rest of you get away ...

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 12:17 PM
I think my games work differently than yours.
There's running, hiding, disguising, bluffing, having enemies that aren't actually out to kill one another per se, etc...

See, my games have all of those except running.

They have teleporting, but no running. Because for some reason when your movement speed is 30-40ft, and the Glabrezu has at least that speed, probably more, teleport at will, and ranged SLA attacks that prevent escape, you don't actually get to run away. You get eated if you try.

If someone sends an attack squad after you, you can't run from them, because they have this ability called, follow you and kill you.

BardicDuelist
2008-11-13, 12:36 PM
As a DM, you may not have to stay strictly withing CR guidelines (note the making a dragon's head explode comment earlier). That being said, you should never throw something at players that they cannot handle, either by running long enough to get stronger and handle them, or by fighting. Period. The game doesn't work if you do.

Story wise, sure have crusades against the Ur-Priest. No problem with that, IF the Ur-Priest is dumb enough to slip up and get caught. But don't make it a God Kills You type crusade. That's not fair to the player. I don't care how you as a DM feel about a class. If you allow it, you have to treat it fairly.

FinalJustice
2008-11-13, 12:36 PM
What I don't get is why people insist in transforming a plot hook into a mandatory reason to pick on and bully players 'because 'it's an intrinsec disadvantage of the class' (the consequences of stealing from the gods or the yadayada with paladins being threats to evil being the plot hooks in question here, obviously). That's just adversarial and annoying...

BrainFreeze
2008-11-13, 01:24 PM
As far as Pallys being threats, well you just need to go into Ravenloft to see how well that goes for you.

For Ur Priests though, there is nothing that says encounters have to be equal CR, there is also nothing that says all encounters involve combat. If I was running a Ur Priest after the first encounter of a specific religion hunting me down I would start looking for an amulet of non-detection and maybe something to keep extra-planer beings from popping up next to me.

You are not a good character, thats obivous and a requirement of the class. You should also not delude yourself by thinking it dosent matter what you choose for your character.

The Ur Priest gets alot of power very quickly and one of the costs for that is that if you get found out, you will be hunted like the dog you are. This is something you should be prepared for.

Wether that starts with the CR 20 monsters or not I guess is up to your respective DM, I wouldnt start with things higher then your challenge rating. But if you defeat the first encounter...second encounter...third encounter, then you cant blame it on the GM if the church decides it's smart enough to send overwhelming force.

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 02:13 PM
then you cant blame it on the GM if the church decides it's smart enough to send overwhelming force.

Yes. Yes you can. Your DM just said "Rocks Fall, everyone dies. Because you choose Ur-Priest as a character."

That is quite possibly the worst DMing humanly possible without involving physical violence.

If some church sends overwhelming force, then your DM is horrible and deserves to be punched in the face.

Just like any DM that involves Vecna sending a Hit squad of Balors after a level 10 Paladin.

Sending overwhelming force is bad DMing. Period.


would start looking for an amulet of non-detection and maybe something to keep extra-planer beings from popping up next to me.

They already have both of those in the form of spells, which is precisely why no one ever finds out an Ur-Priest is an Ur-Priest without the Ur-Priest telling them.

BrainFreeze
2008-11-13, 03:00 PM
So by your opinion churches are stupid enough to send the exact same force that was destroyed the first second and third time, a fourth time and expect it to succeed where the first 3 failed?

Perhaps you know...after the first two encounters the Priest should be smart enough to leave the area the church has influence over.

Vinotaur
2008-11-13, 03:52 PM
So by your opinion churches are stupid enough to send the exact same force that was destroyed the first second and third time, a fourth time and expect it to succeed where the first 3 failed?

Perhaps you know...after the first two encounters the Priest should be smart enough to leave the area the church has influence over.

1) I think that they should send a stronger force, but that force should come enough delayed that hey, maybe the Ur-Priest gained 3 levels. Certainly I'd give my first force a couple weeks before sending something 2-3 times more powerful.

You send something of appropriate CR. That means that every couple levels an Ur-Priest gets attacked by a church, one church might even attack him over and over, every 4 levels or so. But at no point does he face battles involving overwhelming force.

2) This isn't about an Ur-Priest being in a "Church Controlled Area" (as if anyone really controls any area larger then a single dungeon/building in D&D). This is about some people running a constant scrying racket and tracking the Ur-Priest down.

If the Ur-Priest stands outside the church screaming, "come get me suckers!" Then he clearly wants his character to die (unless he's high enough level, and has done the research to know he can kill that church off himself). But if he go hides in a building, or casts disguise self, there is no justifiable reason for the Church to devote 6-7 high level clerics to scry for him all day every day and then teleport ambush him unless he is actively trying to kill their god.

FinalJustice
2008-11-13, 04:26 PM
The Ur Priest gets alot of power very quickly and one of the costs for that is that if you get found out, you will be hunted like the dog you are. This is something you should be prepared for.


You people clearly overestimate the witchhunting because of the fluff and the fact that the Ur Priest is one of those b0rked '9th level Spells in 10 levels' PrCs. But tell me, is there any sort of witch hunt 'OMFG they're gonna send the holy army' in the fluff text that I am not aware? And is there any kind of Sublime Chord hunt, because they get a similar kind of power? I'm guessing no in both cases.

Sending overwhelming forces is bad DMing, as mentioned. Hell, even hunting the Ur-Priest 'just because' is ridiculous, if it doesn't fit the plot. It is a plot hook, a tool for good storytelling, not for making the player 'pay for his power'.

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 04:57 PM
We're not saying he'd be hunted down because he gets 9th level spells in 10 levels. We're saying he'd be hunted down because he's STEALING FROM A GOD.

streakster
2008-11-13, 05:06 PM
We're not saying he'd be hunted down because he gets 9th level spells in 10 levels. We're saying he'd be hunted down because he's STEALING FROM A GOD.

And Paladins must be hunted down too! They're SERVING A GOD.

Seriously. It's been said, but here goes -

Everyone in the game (Well, not Bards or my Diplolock) has enemies. Every single one. Sometimes natural to the class, sometimes because of what the character has done, etc. If you as a DM want to throw overwhelming force against your players, fine. Do that. But you'll have to do it to pretty much all of them for any hope of consistency at all.

"So I'm in trouble for stealing from a god?"
"Yup."
"But Holy McStickArse over there serves a god, the enemy of all evil, and curses the lords of the pit every morning in his devotions? Has killed their minions and ruined their plans? And they're fine with that?"
"Yep."
"Riiiiiight."

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 05:27 PM
If Holy McStickArse has indeed foiled the plans of untold multitudes of demons then ye, they would be coming after him. On the other hand, it's far more fun to make a paladin fall and become an agent of evil than it is to kill him outright...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-11-13, 05:44 PM
What I don't get is why people insist in transforming a plot hook into a mandatory reason to pick on and bully players 'because 'it's an intrinsec disadvantage of the class' (the consequences of stealing from the gods or the yadayada with paladins being threats to evil being the plot hooks in question here, obviously). That's just adversarial and annoying...

THIS!
Stealing magic from the gods (actually stealing it from their followers as it's given to them) does not have to be an intrinsic disadvantage of Ur-Priest. A character has his own flavor and personality, you take whichever class has the skill set to best describe that, not whichever class has the built-in flavor text that best matches your character. The flavor text of a class is not a set of rules, that's why they include the possibility of an adaptation: you worship a dead god and take what magic he's left around rather than stealing magic from other gods. Trying to force a PC to use the built-in flavor of a given class is bad DMing and bad RPing. Let them play their character, don't try to force them to play their class and then punish them for it.

A lot of people here seem to think that Ur-Priest is overpowered and so anyone who plays one deserves to be punished for it through RP. That is simply not the case. As I pointed out earlier, a character taking Ur-Priest has to fall behind for half of their adventuring career, only to be ahead by no more than two spell levels, for a total of five character levels, before everyone else catches back up with them. Furthermore, WotC does include RP balances for things that are mechanically overpowered (Saint), but if that was the case with Ur-Priest, then they would not have put in an Adaptation that completely removes it. Ur-Priest is not so overpowered that you need to punish players for taking it through RP, and using RP to balance powerful game mechanics is not good DMing.

Heliomance
2008-11-13, 06:17 PM
THIS!
<snip> using RP to balance powerful game mechanics is not good DMing.

Actually, it can be. One of my DMs - the one who I personally feel runs the best game of the lot, and I'm in four games at the moment - doesn't enforce level adjustment rules. If you pick up a template in game, you don't need to worry about the LA. To balance that, he pushes the RP consequences of them a lot. My character is undead. If anyone outside the party ever found this out, he would get thrown out of town. The fact that I'm undead causes friction with the party druid. These are all roleplaying consequences that I have to work around. Similarly, the Wilderness, and by extension Druids, are somewhat feared in civilisation. Certainly not trusted. The Druid has also been careful not to reveal his full capabilities in front of anyone - not wildshaping in town, not using clearly druid-like spells such as control plants, and so on. Again, if the town realised he was a Druid, there might well be a vote to throw him out. If you want to play some sort of multi-templated monstrosity, then go ahead as long as you can justify the templates. But be prepared to accept that pretty much everyone in the civilised world is going to be afraid of you. RP can be a very good way of balancing mechanical power, as long as it's done right.

Lycar
2008-11-13, 06:29 PM
Sending overwhelming forces is bad DMing, as mentioned. Hell, even hunting the Ur-Priest 'just because' is ridiculous, if it doesn't fit the plot. It is a plot hook, a tool for good storytelling, not for making the player 'pay for his power'.

True. It is a way to make the character pay for the power.

Look at it like this: Usually, you happy-go-lucky band of genocidal sociopaths adventurers goes around looking for creatures to kill and loot that don't get the forces of law and goodness up in arms about it.

So they kill things on the 'okay' list (i.e.: non-player races/monsters).

Now if a player happens to play something that pretty much has the 'getting the forces of law and goodness (or whatever) up in arms about it' built in as a class feature, the game shifts a bit towards your characters having the xp and loot 'monsters' come for them.

Yes, sending overwhelming force after the party without giving them a chance to escape is bad style. Sending overwhelming force after them, so that the campaign is pretty much about the characters being fugitives, always on the run, is just another style of play.


THIS!
Stealing magic from the gods (actually stealing it from their followers as it's given to them) does not have to be an intrinsic disadvantage of Ur-Priest. A character has his own flavor and personality, you take whichever class has the skill set to best describe that, not whichever class has the built-in flavor text that best matches your character. The flavor text of a class is not a set of rules, that's why they include the possibility of an adaptation: you worship a dead god and take what magic he's left around rather than stealing magic from other gods. Trying to force a PC to use the built-in flavor of a given class is bad DMing and bad RPing. Let them play their character, don't try to force them to play their class and then punish them for it.

True. So if you think you want to play the 'worships a dead god' version of the Ur-Priest, then you just better not forget to mention it to your GM first.

Because if your GM accepts your request to play an Ur-Priest 'without comment', it means he considers your Ur-Priest to be the standard kind. Everything else needs the co-operation of GM and player. And if your GM doesn't like the idea of an Ur-Priest who does not get hunted down as soon as he's found out.. tough!

If your GM is cool with the idea though, well... he won't be sending cleric hit squads after your character in the first place, now would he?

What it comes down to is that all the classes (and feats and seplls and whatnot) in the various splatbooks are ideas and inspirations.

Someone mentioned that D&D 3.x is pretty much a toolkit: You get lots of stuff and parts to tinker around with. But just as you can use them to build interesting and reasonable powerful characters, you can abuse them to create gamebreaking turds of unfun.

So, in the end you (GM and players) just have to be mature enought to work together and agree on what you want your game to be like.

The writers already recognized this: They presented the Ur-Priest as an outcast, hunted and hated by the worshippers of the gods they steal their power from. Nice to build an interesting villain for the PCs to hunt down maybe? Or maybe some players like to play such a villain. And in the very same description text, they offer an idea to make the class non-villainous (maybe one should change the requirements a bit too then though) and maybe more appealing to 'heroic' players.

But think about it: Maybe the worshippers of the dead god want to, you know, resurrect their god? And maybe, just maybe, the worshippers of the god(s) who offed your god in the first place aren't too happy about that? Whoops, looks like you've got a cleric hit-squad headed your way...

Lycar

Jack_Simth
2008-11-13, 06:58 PM
A lot of people here seem to think that Ur-Priest is overpowered and so anyone who plays one deserves to be punished for it through RP. That is simply not the case. As I pointed out earlier, a character taking Ur-Priest has to fall behind for half of their adventuring career, only to be ahead by no more than two spell levels, for a total of five character levels, before everyone else catches back up with them. Furthermore, WotC does include RP balances for things that are mechanically overpowered (Saint), but if that was the case with Ur-Priest, then they would not have put in an Adaptation that completely removes it. Ur-Priest is not so overpowered that you need to punish players for taking it through RP, and using RP to balance powerful game mechanics is not good DMing.
Is over-strong in a particular level range (12-16, give or take), and it's often over-strong overall if you Theurge it carefully (Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/<Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice>-4, and similar), and if you use it to it's fullest, the capstone is over the top (the Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-10 who uses Steal Spell-Like Ability on an Efreeti in order to grant himself three wishes per day comes to mind). Ignore the 12-16 level range, keep it from being Theurged, and trim-down the capstone a bit, it's within reason on the power curve.

Of course, if you have to make three different caveats on saying the class is blanaced, then it probably isn't...

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 12:36 AM
If Holy McStickArse has indeed foiled the plans of untold multitudes of demons then ye, they would be coming after him. On the other hand, it's far more fun to make a paladin fall and become an agent of evil than it is to kill him outright...

Now here's the question, if Holy McStickArse has foiled the plans of untold multitudes of demons, and he is level 10, then do you send a Balor hit squad after him?

Yes or No?

If you answered yes, then you are a bad DM.


Sending overwhelming force after them, so that the campaign is pretty much about the characters being fugitives, always on the run, is just another style of play.

Except that you are forgetting the part where overwhelming force is a KO every time, and you can't be a fugitive from it.

Most Angels have the spell of spell like ability Holy Word. This is a spell that literally says, you kill any Ur-Priest that you are stronger then. Dead.

You can't be a fugitive when a bunch of people with higher CLs are spending all their time scrying you and then killing you with spells that make you double dead.

Fishy
2008-11-14, 12:53 AM
So... as good old Frank K pointed out, D&D has, like, Evil Gods.

So, okay, the Ur-Priest stole an amount of Bahamut's power and is using it for his own purposes without His Dragonny Guidance. That's terrible. But he also stole an equal amount of power from Tiamat, who is Bahamut's eternal and savage enemy that he would do anything to rid the cosmos of.

Zero sum blasphemy, basically.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-14, 04:51 AM
So by your opinion churches are stupid enough to send the exact same force that was destroyed the first second and third time, a fourth time and expect it to succeed where the first 3 failed?

If you want any dramatic tension, or to maintain the CR system at all, they'd better. (Unless the Ur Priest is stomping them easily, then you should up the CR until it's fair.) It's incredibly anticlimactic for the GM to go "The omnipotent opponent you are facing has realized you'll be a threat later, so he's sending his Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils after you. He's 10 levels higher than you." or something like that. It's the same reason why the Batman never just shoots the Joker, or why the Bond Villain always places our spyful hero in a death trap. Because just killing him is not dramatic or heroic at all.

Lycar
2008-11-14, 08:13 AM
Except that you are forgetting the part where overwhelming force is a KO every time, and you can't be a fugitive from it.

Most Angels have the spell of spell like ability Holy Word. This is a spell that literally says, you kill any Ur-Priest that you are stronger then. Dead.

You can't be a fugitive when a bunch of people with higher CLs are spending all their time scrying you and then killing you with spells that make you double dead.

Take the Dungeon Master's Guide. Open up on page 49. Check out the table 3-2: Encounter Difficulty in the lower right corner. Realize that about 5% of the encounters are suggested to be of the 'overpowering' variant.

Flip to page 50. Read the entry for 'overpowering': "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is 5 or more levels higher then the party level."

Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is. Unless you want this to be the final fight of the campaign or something. For a party of evildoers, finally having karma catch up with them is probably just as fitting an end to a campaign as is finally defeating the BBEG for the heroic party.

You do remember that the standard Ur-Priest is evil, yes?

As for the angels: Someone already mentioned that there are ways to protect from scrying. There are ways of protecting from things like Holy Word. It is up to the players to find and use them.

Or do you pity a party that suffers defeat when going up against, say, a red dragon without loading up on flame retardant?

Lycar

Riffington
2008-11-14, 08:46 AM
Except that you are forgetting the part where overwhelming force is a KO every time, and you can't be a fugitive from it.


Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.
Also, I don't understand how you have simultaneously decided:
1. individual enemies will use every tool (scry, teleport, etc) at their disposal to track you down whereever you may flee and destroy you
2. enemy organizations will refrain from using any opponent that is too high a CR for you to defeat in combat.

It's fine if you want to say "Lord of the Rings wouldn't be my style of game". But to claim that nobody else should play in that style... is a little odd. And Lord of the Rings is an extreme on the hiding/running side. There is plenty of middle ground.

KKL
2008-11-14, 08:47 AM
Now we come to the most important part of this topic.

How do you pronounce the "Ur" in Ur-Priest? I've always preferred to pronounce it "er". As in the first sound in Earth.

Lycar
2008-11-14, 09:06 AM
Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.


May I sig this, pretty please? :smallbiggrin:


Now we come to the most important part of this topic.

How do you pronounce the "Ur" in Ur-Priest? I've always preferred to pronounce it "er". As in the first sound in Earth.

Er? As in 'er'renously believing he can get away with thumping his nose at gods forwever? :smallwink:

Of course, in german the 'U' gets pronounced like the 'ou' in 'you', so that's a bit like 'How do you pronounce potatoe?' 'Kartoffel.' :smallwink:

Lycar

Jayabalard
2008-11-14, 09:39 AM
at which point I stop the game and tell ken or whoever is DMing why he let me make an Ur-priest if he was just going to try and kill off my character specifically. Its your choice if you want to paint a target on your chest, and if that's really what you want to do, then why should the GM stop you?

Becoming a target of every religious order in the world is a pretty obvious consequence of becoming an ur-priest; if you're not willing to accept the consequences of becoming an Ur-Priest, then don't become one.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 10:40 AM
Take the Dungeon Master's Guide. Open up on page 49. Check out the table 3-2: Encounter Difficulty in the lower right corner. Realize that about 5% of the encounters are suggested to be of the 'overpowering' variant.

Flip to page 50. Read the entry for 'overpowering': "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is 5 or more levels higher then the party level."

Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is. Unless you want this to be the final fight of the campaign or something. For a party of evildoers, finally having karma catch up with them is probably just as fitting an end to a campaign as is finally defeating the BBEG for the heroic party.

1) A party facing an encounter EL 5 over the party level is not overpowering. It's a 50-50 shot either way. And it doesn't matter if it says you should run, you still can't run from something that moves faster then you can can kill you in a single standard action.

2) There is one defense against Holy Word for an Ur-Priest, and that involves not being able to cast spells. Probably a bad deal when every single Cleric or Angel in the game can beat him in melee or ranged combat.

3) If the Dragon teleports out of nowhere, they had no idea they would be facing him that day, and then he breathes a single breath which does not provide a Reflex save, and instantly kills every non Fire immune creature in the party, then yes, I pity the party that has to deal with that horrible DM.


Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.
Also, I don't understand how you have simultaneously decided:
1. individual enemies will use every tool (scry, teleport, etc) at their disposal to track you down whereever you may flee and destroy you
2. enemy organizations will refrain from using any opponent that is too high a CR for you to defeat in combat.

It's fine if you want to say "Lord of the Rings wouldn't be my style of game". But to claim that nobody else should play in that style... is a little odd. And Lord of the Rings is an extreme on the hiding/running side. There is plenty of middle ground.

1) Yes, individuals will use every tool at their disposal that does not consumer permanent resources, because that's what individuals do. If I am told to find someone, I will totally use the internet instead of just hoping to actually run into them. This is because if I want to find them I will do my best.

2) Enemy organizations will refrain from using an opponent that is too high CR because every organization has a million things to do at once. If the head of the church is a level 20 Cleric, then he is not going to be hunting down a level 10 Ur-Priest. He is going to be managing, or defending the church or hunting down a level 20 Ur-Priest.

You are worth exactly as much as an opponent of your CR. If they send someone stronger then that after you, they will not have the resources to attempt some other important objective.

Which is better DMing:

1) An Astral Deva flies around invisible and then tracks you down and Holy Words you, you die. Meanwhile, Vecna, who was smart enough to not go Overkill against an Ur-Priest, Killed the injured Cleric that the Deva should have been defending.

Net loss for the people who killed you, oh and your dead.

2) Astral Deva manages to keep injured Cleric alive, in several levels maybe you'll get to kill that Cleric, in the mean time a couple Justice Archons showed up and you killed them.

The Church is still alive and strong, oh and you are still alive to, hey look the campaign isn't over.


Also, I like how no one actually answered my question about Balors and Clerics.

Heliomance
2008-11-14, 10:48 AM
Why would the church bother sending the Justice Archons then? Why would it send anyone if they haven't got better than fair odds of actually winning the fight? If they haven't, which if they're CR equivalent they don't, then it's jut meaninglessly sacrificing minions for no gain. You'd send someone capable of getting the job done. If they prove stronger than you expected and win anyway, then you adjust your estimation of their strength and send someone stronger.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-14, 10:51 AM
{Scrubbed}

Jayabalard
2008-11-14, 11:27 AM
Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is. Likewise, allowing the PC's to throw themselves at an unwinnable and unescable encounter isn't bad GMing either. They should have that choice open to them.


2) Enemy organizations will refrain from using an opponent that is too high CR because every organization has a million things to do at once. No, they'll use as much force as they possibly can, which can easily mean that they'll send someone out who will squash you like a bug. What they're absolutely not going to do is send out something CR unless they have no other choice.


If the head of the church is a level 20 Cleric, then he is not going to be hunting down a level 10 Ur-Priest. He is going to be managing, or defending the church or hunting down a level 20 Ur-Priest.Not so; Since he goes out and deals with level 10 ur-priests, there aren't any level 20 ur-priests... because they've already been dealt with before they had a chance to before they become level 20 ur-priests.


You are worth exactly as much as an opponent of your CR. If they send someone stronger then that after you, they will not have the resources to attempt some other important objective.This is not necessarily true.


Which is better DMing:Neither of them is particularly good or bad DMing. They can both be appropriate choices for a DM to take.

BrainFreeze
2008-11-14, 11:42 AM
If you want any dramatic tension, or to maintain the CR system at all, they'd better. (Unless the Ur Priest is stomping them easily, then you should up the CR until it's fair.) It's incredibly anticlimactic for the GM to go "The omnipotent opponent you are facing has realized you'll be a threat later, so he's sending his Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils after you. He's 10 levels higher than you." or something like that. It's the same reason why the Batman never just shoots the Joker, or why the Bond Villain always places our spyful hero in a death trap. Because just killing him is not dramatic or heroic at all.

So your telling me there is no dramatic tension in the players doing everything in their power to escape/fight an overpowering force? I think you need to re-read alot of books. V was all about a morally grey individual fighting an oppressive regime. Lord of the Rings had multiple forces hunting those poor little almost powerless Hobbits. These are powerful stories that can only be told when using opponents that the players cannot just walk up to and defeat.

Though I guess if your player's only reaction to a challenge such as this is to attempt to fight it in a one on one fight you should stay away from it. They will inevetably fail, and then it will obivously be your fault that they didnt think up a different course of action.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-14, 11:51 AM
Um. You can't run away from Higher CR enemies. Especially since they are apparently scry/teleport ambushing you all the time according to previous posters.

Not that you can run away normally, since if you don't have teleport, (which you don't at level 10) they can run you down on their mounts/with their own spells.

Running away doesn't really work pre teleport.

Y'know, I was just going to keep quiet but now I'm just annoyed. I don't know about the other people who have said Ur-priests are likely to be hunted by high CR encounters but I sure as hell didn't mean..

God A:Gah! Someone is stealing my power! Quick, send a Solar to kill that level six guy!

No. I meant gods, angels, devils, etcs are usually very intelligent people. Beyond what we have an accurate example of IRL. Do you think a Super Genius is going to keep sending mooks after somebody who routinely trashes them? No, they are going to upgrade to the next step up. Well...what happens when they keep getting trashed (CR proper encounters)? Obviously just going up one step ain't gonna work. They'll skip one or two and see the results. That's what I meant so don't try and say I said 'Look! Ur-priest, teleport ambush him with the best we've got!' because that'd be wrong and lying.

And that's mostly what I meant JackSmith..the perfect disguise don't exist. The REALLY good disguise only needs to fail once or come up against an abnormally high sense motive/knowledge religion check before people begin catching wise. This is, of course, assuming that the entire school of divination can't pick out a couple of Ur-priests.

KKL
2008-11-14, 11:52 AM
Of course, in german the 'U' gets pronounced like the 'ou' in 'you', so that's a bit like 'How do you pronounce potatoe?' 'Kartoffel.' :smallwink:

For a second I parsed that sentence as you saying that the U in Ur was pronounced with an umlaut.

Which admittedly, would make it sound hilariously bad.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 12:18 PM
Why would the church bother sending the Justice Archons then? Why would it send anyone if they haven't got better than fair odds of actually winning the fight? If they haven't, which if they're CR equivalent they don't, then it's jut meaninglessly sacrificing minions for no gain. You'd send someone capable of getting the job done. If they prove stronger than you expected and win anyway, then you adjust your estimation of their strength and send someone stronger.

Maybe because they think the Justice Archons have a chance. Maybe because Ur-Priest number 207 is not as big a threat to them as the Cleric of Vecna?


{Scrubbed}

So just to be clear. You used to agree with me, but now you don't because even though my position hasn't changed, I have become meaner when faced with multitudes of people who claim it's okay to RFED a group just because of a class selection? But no change in how right I am, just my personality?


Neither of them is particularly good or bad DMing. They can both be appropriate choices for a DM to take.

This is only aimed at sane normal people who want to have. I don't care if you think that arbitrarily killing your entire party just for your personal entertainment is good DMing. {Scrubbed}


Lord of the Rings had multiple forces hunting those poor little almost powerless Hobbits. These are powerful stories that can only be told when using opponents that the players cannot just walk up to and defeat.

I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.

Sauron was a level 20 Fighter with no magic items, and Frodo/Bilbo ect where level 3 Rogues with a ring of invisibility.

If Sauron had cast scy, followed by teleport, LotR would suck, just like any D&D campaign will that is based upon being on the run from high level spellcasters.


I meant gods, angels, devils, etcs are usually very intelligent people. Beyond what we have an accurate example of IRL. Do you think a Super Genius is going to keep sending mooks after somebody who routinely trashes them? No, they are going to upgrade to the next step up. Well...what happens when they keep getting trashed (CR proper encounters)? Obviously just going up one step ain't gonna work. They'll skip one or two and see the results. That's what I meant so don't try and say I said 'Look! Ur-priest, teleport ambush him with the best we've got!' because that'd be wrong and lying.

Upgrading two steps is called sending a Solar against a level 14 party.

CRs are:
Astral Deva/Hound Archon Hero 14
Planetar 16
Solar 22.

If you are upgrading two steps from the Astral Deva whole failed to kill the level 14 character (or level 10 party, although, Astral Devas actually always win against level 10 Evil parties) Then you are going to send a Solar Next, and you are going to send it after at level 15 character.

Tell you what, I'll run a challenge in which level 20 Clerics of every Deity are constantly Divining for Ur-Priests instead of actually advancing their deities cause. You start at whatever level you take your first level of Ur-Priest, they will send a CR enemy. Then another one. Then a Stronger one but you'll have leveled. And then they'll upgrade 2 steps, and send a Planetar at your level 10 character and kill you dead.

All of this is exactly the same as the Paladin discussion earlier. Demons and Devils and Lichs are super intelligent too, why do they keep sending people that you can beat? Why doesn't every party die instantly upon existing because all the forces of evil are constantly divining for them and killing them? A) Because that's not a fun game when level 1 parties get Balor jumped. B) Because those high level characters and monsters have high level threats and monsters to deal with. And if they waste all their time tracking down an Ur-Priest 5 levels lower then them and killing him, then a Balor is going to take advantage of the situation to raze six churches and slaughter all the Clerics inside.

Heliomance
2008-11-14, 12:35 PM
However if they wait for the ur-priest to get to level 20 and they have to take care of him then, there's still nothing stopping that balor from screwing them over in the fuss.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 12:40 PM
for "realism" (Verisimilitude?) some opponents must be the sort of things you run away from. even generating them randomly, some will be a little too powerful.

Picking "Now" as time to drop in some monsters or clerics out to kill the Ur-priest isn't a bad thing- as long as its fair- He should have opportunity to run and hide- an "On the run" campaign can work, done right.

BrainFreeze
2008-11-14, 12:55 PM
I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.

Sauron was a level 20 Fighter with no magic items, and Frodo/Bilbo ect where level 3 Rogues with a ring of invisibility.

If Sauron had cast scy, followed by teleport, LotR would suck, just like any D&D campaign will that is based upon being on the run from high level spellcasters.


And so we should skip out on an entire line of promissing stories because in YOUR opinion the system is not capable of handling them. I'm sorry no, if you are incapable of finding a way for it to work that is just fine for YOUR game.

Though I guess playing in one of your games would be compforting due to the fact that we would very rarely be confronted with challenges that would be difficult to overcome. Mass murder here I come, they wont send anyone after me more then 2-3 CRs over mine so this should be easy.

This method of thought breaks continunity, and paints all the NPCs in the world as idiots that dont understand the concept of damage control.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 01:18 PM
I love that people seem to think that running is viable. Scry&Die is such a horrid tactic because it can slaughter anyone without massive defenses before they can react. And in a world with spell slots, if you're level 10 you're probably only going to have one teleport. A higher level can move faster and teleport more. Running isn't viable.

Jayabalard
2008-11-14, 01:37 PM
I'm only talking to people who actually want to have a fun game of D&D for everyone, not just killer DM *******.Tone down the melodrama a bit, eh?


I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.It doesn't really matter how much you emphasize it, you're simply incorrect.

D&D is not just the game as Vinotaur likes to play it; someone playing a lord of the rings style game using D&D is not doing it wrong; nor do they need to find another game. D&D can do a wide variety of gaming styles.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 01:59 PM
Lord of Madness, for more horrific campaigns, tells us that first encounter should be very hard- PCs should run away, then take on weaker minions of Big Bad, before a difficult end of campaign showdown.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:02 PM
Lord of Madness, for more horrific campaigns, tells us that first encounter should be very hard- PCs should run away, then take on weaker minions of Big Bad, before a difficult end of campaign showdown.I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-14, 02:07 PM
I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.

The Game moves at the Speed of Plot. If the plot needs the PCs escape, then the PCs (through some sort of miracle, if need be) can escape. If the plot says there is no escape this time, then even a miracle can't save them.

Remember all that talk of DM-Fudging? That doesn't just apply to dice. Maybe the lich expended all his divinations on finding out where The Priceless Orb of World Domination exactly is, and the PCs fortuitously happened to run into him that day. Maybe they're not the first party to show up today--"That's not dust you're walking in, it's disintegrated adventurers." Maybe the villain's on an ego trip.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:15 PM
The Game moves at the Speed of Plot. If the plot needs the PCs escape, then the PCs (through some sort of miracle, if need be) can escape. If the plot says there is no escape this time, then even a miracle can't save them.

Remember all that talk of DM-Fudging? That doesn't just apply to dice. Maybe the lich expended all his divinations on finding out where The Priceless Orb of World Domination exactly is, and the PCs fortuitously happened to run into him that day. Maybe they're not the first party to show up today--"That's not dust you're walking in, it's disintegrated adventurers." Maybe the villain's on an ego trip.I'm talking about running on a round-by-round basis. One where One where the party is attacked by overwhelming force and needs to flee. Both sides have the same speed, most likely, so without one guy holding them off(and dying/being captured) 3.5 doesn't have a way to escape.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-14, 02:18 PM
Okay, yeah that there is true. Unless some poor schmuck makes a diversion or obstacle (wall spells work nicely), you're boned.

Riffington
2008-11-14, 02:24 PM
I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.

Armies move at the pace of their armored members. Large creatures can't fit in small spaces. Haste. Horses walk slowly up mountains. Mummies have 20' speed. Batman has to stop and save the kid you just pushed off a building. Vampires fear the rising sun. Moriarty isn't dumb enough to leave his lair unprotected when the intruders have already fled. You made sure to buy the fastest horse in town before you hustled anyone.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 02:27 PM
the big whatsit, whether Cthulhu or something else, is territorial but doesn't pursue past a certain distance.

now angels/inevitables on a mission, unless you can distract them somehow, yes, you have a problem "And it absolutely will not stop."

Lycar
2008-11-14, 02:35 PM
Why doesn't every party die instantly upon existing because all the forces of evil are constantly divining for them and killing them? A) Because that's not a fun game when level 1 parties get Balor jumped.

That's why, period. Seriously, the only reason why the game called D&D is designed the way it is, is so that people have fun playing it.

Defeating the Evil Overlord at the end of a long, rewarding campaign is a very nice thing to experience.

Getting curb-stomed by an immature prick of a killer Gm is not.

You seem to be getting something mixed up here: The problem is not the class Ur-Priest having fluff about him being a hunted man (or woman), it is a bad GM.

Previous posters have already summed it up: If the GM plays fair, it does not matter if the class has built-in enemies. They just have to be reasonable for the party to handle. Of course, somtimes the party is just out of their league and has to flee or *gasp* even surrender!

That's right, surrender. Blasphemous, I know. :smallamused:

But if the GM is just going to abuse you for a powertrip, a class like the Ur-Priest just hands him a few extra excused to mess with you on a silver platter.

Also, some people have asked why a god should even bother with persecuting (or prosecuting, in the case of lawful gods :smallwink:) Ur-Priests, they do only ever siphon of a totally insignificant amount of divine power after all. Is it really worth to get your worshippers up in arms about this?

You have to understand the real threat the very existance of even a single Ur-Priest poses to the gods: He threatens their power base! Gods gain power from the worship of their followers/believers. A gods power derives from his ability to make people worship him.

A good god does it by doing nice things for his followers: 'Worship me and your harvests shall be bountifull and your daughters beautifull.' Something like this.

Evil gods take a slightly different approach: 'Worship me. Or else! Would be a shame if a meteor strike would wipe out that lovely little village of yours. Or a plague of locusts. Or the plague. Or... well, you get the idea. Now down on your knees and start praying. Oh and I want a virgin sacrifice too. Hop to it.'

Either way, the more people they can convince to/bully into worshipping them, the more powerful they become.

Why do they share some of their power with some chosen believers? Because, even while gods are, well, gods, they can't be omnipresent. Give some people a measure of your power in exchange for spreading their faith and thus generating more worshippers = more power for the god.

Incidentially this is why a GM ought to make sure the cleric plays up to his chosen domains. For a god granting a cleric spells is an investment. He invests divine power into his clerics so that this will pay dividends in the form of more worshippers. If the cleric does not increase the god's power, the god should simply stop pouring down divine energy into a bottomless barrel.

An evil god should also make an example about not tolerating failure out of said cleric.

Now enter the Ur-Priest: This guy gets divine power without worshipping (or sucking up to) any gods. He just takes it.

Now imagine if that example catches on: People draining the power of the gods without giving back anything in return. The gods would lose worshippers and thus power and get leeched off by more and more Ur-Priests!

Can you see where this is going?

Good, then you know why every god is out to destroy these guys. Because it is of vital interest for them to do so! The very existance of the Ur-Priests threaten the existance of the gods!

And so no god will be mollified by an Ur-Priest who goes 'But I stole power from that other god too! Your own arch-enemy! So it's really a zero-sum blasphemy, see?'

Besides, evil gods will crush you on principle because you make them look bad in the eyes of others, if they don't rub you out for stealing from them.

EDIT: (About fleeing from an overwhelming encounter.)

Okay, yeah that there is true. Unless some poor schmuck makes a diversion or obstacle (wall spells work nicely), you're boned.

Don't forget the humble bag of caltrops. Or just tossing down some rations in front of the starved war-dogs. A simple smokestick (or Obscuring Mist spell) can break LOS/LOE to enemy casters. And archers are also boned if they can't see what they are supposed to shoot. :smallcool:

Lycar

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 02:36 PM
However if they wait for the ur-priest to get to level 20 and they have to take care of him then, there's still nothing stopping that balor from screwing them over in the fuss.

Why are they even taking care of him in the first place. They should be more concerned about things that actually matter to them. Like advancing their causes, and protecting their people instead of hunting down every evil person in existence.


for "realism" (Verisimilitude?) some opponents must be the sort of things you run away from. even generating them randomly, some will be a little too powerful.

Picking "Now" as time to drop in some monsters or clerics out to kill the Ur-priest isn't a bad thing- as long as its fair- He should have opportunity to run and hide- an "On the run" campaign can work, done right.

No, the enemies you run into will never be too strong for you to deal with, because if they are, you die. Period. Because you can't run away from them.


And so we should skip out on an entire line of promissing stories because in YOUR opinion the system is not capable of handling them. I'm sorry no, if you are incapable of finding a way for it to work that is just fine for YOUR game.

No, we skip out on whole series of games because they do not work using the D&D rules. If you want to play those games you find a game that has rules that support those actions.


It doesn't really matter how much you emphasize it, you're simply incorrect.

D&D is not just the game as Vinotaur likes to play it; someone playing a lord of the rings style game using D&D is not doing it wrong; nor do they need to find another game. D&D can do a wide variety of gaming styles.

Yes they are. Because you can't play a Lord Of the Rings style game in D&D without first declaring that 12 classes are completely off limits and don't even exist in the world, along with 3/4ths of the MM.

You aren't playing D&D. If you try to play without banning all those things then your entire party will TPK in a day. Because one of the hundreds of more powerful people will cast a damn spell that teleports them adjacent, and then when they run away, that more powerful enemy will run faster and kill them all in one hit.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 02:45 PM
not every monster is super-persistant.

Elder Evils made it clear just being able to be a cleric of "a cause" was a dire secret that the deities were really angry about getting into general knowledge. Tome of Magic made Good and Evil churches team up against Binders who don't even wield divine magic.

if the party has items of rapid escape- carpet of flying, wings, etc, the spellcaster may not be equipped to pursue them. Not every world is tippyland with every wizard using Teleport to the best of their ability. It might even be on prohibit list of specialist wizard.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 02:52 PM
You seem to be getting something mixed up here: The problem is not the class Ur-Priest having fluff about him being a hunted man (or woman), it is a bad GM.

I think you are confused. I said that Ur-Priests having enemies is not a problem at all, because everyone has enemies. I then said that your enemies will be of the same difficulty whether you are an Ur-Priest or a Cleric, and so, it's fine.

Everyone else said that Ur-Priests have to fight tougher people the Clerics, because they have enemies, as if every cleric ever (and every D&D character) didn't have enemies.


Previous posters have already summed it up: If the GM plays fair, it does not matter if the class has built-in enemies. They just have to be reasonable for the party to handle.

Those other posters are me. I'm the one that first said if the DM plays fair it does not matter. Everyone I've been arguing against has been saying that DMs are under an obligation to not play fair when you choose Ur-Priest.


You have to understand the real threat the very existance of even a single Ur-Priest poses to the gods: He threatens their power base! Gods gain power from the worship of their followers/believers. A gods power derives from his ability to make people worship him.

A good god does it by doing nice things for his followers: 'Worship me and your harvests shall be bountifull and your daughters beautifull.' Something like this.

Evil gods take a slightly different approach: 'Worship me. Or else! Would be a shame if a meteor strike would wipe out that lovely little village of yours. Or a plague of locusts. Or the plague. Or... well, you get the idea. Now down on your knees and start praying. Oh and I want a virgin sacrifice too. Hop to it.'

Either way, the more people they can convince to/bully into worshipping them, the more powerful they become.

Why do they share some of their power with some chosen believers? Because, even while gods are, well, gods, they can't be omnipresent. Give some people a measure of your power in exchange for spreading their faith and thus generating more worshippers = more power for the god.

1) You keep getting good and evil in D&D confused with your own conceptions of good and evil. Evil gods give power, they don't threaten or bully. Evil Gods are pretty much exactly like good Gods except they have evil goals.

2) You know who's an even bigger threat to Heronious's power? Hextor! And a Cleric of Hextor.

There is no reason for Heronious to be more concerned about all his Clerics becoming Ur-Priests then he is about all his Clerics becoming Clerics of Hextor. Heck, he's more worried about the second because it actually happens a lot.

Ur-Priests give people hope to have magical powers without Gods? Yeah, they already have those, they are called Wizards and they have managed to go for a long damn time without Cleric hit squads aimed at them.

Here's some further analysis just for fun:

1) Gods are afraid everyone will become an Ur-Priest.
2) Ur-Priests must be trained by other Ur-Priests.
3) If Everyone was an Ur-Priest and stopped believing in Gods, the Gods would cease to exist.
4) If the gods ceased, Ur-Priests would have no power.

Therefore, Gods can trust the Ur-Priests themselves to make sure that people keep believing in Gods.

Heck, I guess when those Ur-Priests attribute their powers to Pelor, they mean it, because the more people believe in Pelor, the more power they get. The only difference is that if Pelor ever sends a smite crew after them, they can fight it off and tell the next town about the Glories of Vecna to punish him.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 02:54 PM
not every monster is super-persistant.

Elder Evils made it clear just being able to be a cleric of "a cause" was a dire secret that the deities were really angry about getting into general knowledge. Tome of Magic made Good and Evil churches team up against Binders who don't even wield divine magic.

if the party has items of rapid escape- carpet of flying, wings, etc, the spellcaster may not be equipped to pursue them. Not every world is tippyland with every wizard using Teleport to the best of their ability. It might even be on prohibit list of specialist wizard.

Funny you should mention Wizards in the same post where you talk about Pelor wanting to hunt down everyone with magic power that didn't get it from him.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 02:55 PM
Arcane is OK, Stolen Divine, is less OK. Power From Possession (or sort-of possession), by anything but a celestial, seems to be frowned on by D&D deities.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 03:15 PM
Arcane is OK, Stolen Divine, is less OK. Power From Possession (or sort-of possession), by anything but a celestial, seems to be frowned on by D&D deities.

Pelor doesn't give a crap about any of those things unless the people doing them is actively trying to thwart him. And he still cares about them less then a Vampire.

Lots of characters fluff says, "hated by deities" but honestly, every D&D character in existance is hated by at least one deity. Pelor doesn't care about Binders or Ur-Priests or anything else. The only thing he hates enough to actually do something about (or send his followers to do something about) is undead/vecna/wee jas.

Lycar
2008-11-14, 03:20 PM
Why are they even taking care of him in the first place. They should be more concerned about things that actually matter to them. Like advancing their causes, and protecting their people instead of hunting down every evil person in existence.

See post #117 above. Damn simulposting...



No, the enemies you run into will never be too strong for you to deal with, because if they are, you die. Period. Because you can't run away from them.


Okay. Now I seriously have a problem with that. :smallannoyed:

WHY on earth (or Dere or wherever) are your player's characters even adventuring? They already are the most powerfull creatures in existance, hence they never have to fear anything like running into something they can't handle apparently. So why bother.

No wait. You are getting players and characters mixed up here: PLAYERS can expect their GM to run a fair game and thus give them encounters they CAN handle SOMEHOW. Even if it is only by running away. But enabling the PCs to live through the encounter, one way or another, is the GMs job. Even if that means he has to give the players a hint that he kinda expects them to surrender to the bandits, because that is, like, the planned adventure for tonight...

CHARACTERS on the other hand usually start out as promising but not very powerfull members of their respective species. They can attain legendary or even epic status if they survive long enough. But Fred, the generic adventurer, will never know if he will end up as Fred, savior of kittens, slayer of BBEGs or as 'just another peasant boy the troll ate before the knight came along' (thanks Terry Pratchett).

Fred can only dream and hope that he never accidentially bites off more then he can chew and chokes on it. Fred should be aware of his own squishiness compared to an Ogre. Or maybe Fred isn't because WIS is his dump stat. But he MUST KNOW that the world out there is big and contains things that are so mind-boggingly more powerful then him, that stumbling across these will end him.

If he still goes out adventuring, congrats Fred, you are hero material all right (or maybe just a wee bit overconfident. it's hard to tell the difference).



Yes they are. Because you can't play a Lord Of the Rings style game in D&D without first declaring that 12 classes are completely off limits and don't even exist in the world, along with 3/4ths of the MM.

You aren't playing D&D. If you try to play without banning all those things then your entire party will TPK in a day. Because one of the hundreds of more powerful people will cast a damn spell that teleports them adjacent, and then when they run away, that more powerful enemy will run faster and kill them all in one hit.

It's called homebrewing and houseruling.

Remember the toolkit metaphor for D&D? Yes, you need to ban a lot of stuff to make a LOTR style game work. Yes there are better RPG systems for that kind of game. But you CAN run such a game with D&D. It's just not using all the parts. Like, you know, the parts that make the game come crashing down in one horrible clump of unfun.

Incidentially, EVERY GM ought to insist on eliminating things from the game if they threaten the fun. Just because a spell has been written in any rulebook, PHB or SC or whatever, does NOT mean any player is in any way entitled to using it in the game.

You can do a lot with D&D. True, some things will be awkward. Like trying to make a dual-handcrossbow wielding gunslingeresque rogue/fighter for an Eberron game. But if the GM is sympathetic to your plight and gives you a break on some of the finer details of certain rules, it can still work.

Lycar

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 03:24 PM
As far as I can tell, nearly every deity is touchy about the whole Binder issue- four churches- St Cuthbert, We-Jas, Vecna, Hieroneous, teamed up to eliminate practice of binding (though the team broke up and the Order is now secret)

At the time, "the gods" were angry enough about the whole "priest of cause" issue to reduce the solar who revealed it to planetar rank when he reported the last words of the demon he slew, to make it clear how foolish the concept was (peopled listen to him, and discovered it actually worked)

When he rebelled, he was cast out.

Ur-priests is a harder question , but the class begun in Vile Darkness- it makes sense that Good priesthoods would deal with it severely.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 03:55 PM
See post #117 above. Damn simulposting...

See post number whatever it was where I quoted #117.


You are getting players and characters mixed up here: PLAYERS can expect their GM to run a fair game and thus give them encounters they CAN handle SOMEHOW. Even if it is only by running away. But enabling the PCs to live through the encounter, one way or another, is the GMs job. Even if that means he has to give the players a hint that he kinda expects them to surrender to the bandits, because that is, like, the planned adventure for tonight...

I'm sorry, no, I'm not getting anything confused. Did you see me claim that people should expect to never fight something tougher? No, you didn't. I am only describing what they get.

Also, even at level 1 everyone knows roughly their stats and first class level. And so they know if they are way the hell better then 90% of the people in the world, which they are if they are a level 1 Cleric/Wizard/Rogue/ect.


It's called homebrewing and houseruling.

Remember the toolkit metaphor for D&D? Yes, you need to ban a lot of stuff to make a LOTR style game work. Yes there are better RPG systems for that kind of game. But you CAN run such a game with D&D. It's just not using all the parts. Like, you know, the parts that make the game come crashing down in one horrible clump of unfun.

Incidentially, EVERY GM ought to insist on eliminating things from the game if they threaten the fun. Just because a spell has been written in any rulebook, PHB or SC or whatever, does NOT mean any player is in any way entitled to using it in the game.

You can do a lot with D&D. True, some things will be awkward. Like trying to make a dual-handcrossbow wielding gunslingeresque rogue/fighter for an Eberron game. But if the GM is sympathetic to your plight and gives you a break on some of the finer details of certain rules, it can still work.

1) If you are playing a game in which spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities don't exist, you aren't actually playing D&D anymore.

2) None of those things make D&D unfun. Stripping D&D of them all does make it unfun. Or at least, less fun then sitting in a room with your friends freeforming. Because the rules of D&D do not add any fun to anything if you start by banning everything that is more complex then run around stabbing things.


Lycar

Why does everyone I end up arguing with sign their name. Is their any possible purpose to it?

Zeful
2008-11-14, 03:59 PM
2) Enemy organizations will refrain from using an opponent that is too high CR because every organization has a million things to do at once. If the head of the church is a level 20 Cleric, then he is not going to be hunting down a level 10 Ur-Priest. He is going to be managing, or defending the church or hunting down a level 20 Ur-Priest.

This is dependent of the organization in question, and how you angered them. Just being an Ur-priest isn't an instant "every god in existence sends solars/demons after you." Its more of a "be very very careful, or every church in the world will be after you". After all stupidity is it's own punishment. If an Ur-priest spend time hiding his tracks, setting up fall guys, faking his death and whatnot, it could be years before the high priest manages to see through the facade. If the Ur-priest walks up to the church and actually outs himself. He's going to die. Because he basically insulted the god and it's church. They are going to take the time to make an example of this blasphemer and kill him in such a way so he stays dead.

Think about it this way, if a 6th level rogue sleeps with the kings daughter/wife, do you think he's going to send 6th-8th level fighters after him? Of course not, it's ludicrous to think so. He's going to get the biggest meanest people in the land to hunt down and kill the rogue.

Killing a character because he made a stupid mistake isn't bad DMing in the least. Sometimes it's the only senseible response.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 04:00 PM
As far as I can tell, nearly every deity is touchy about the whole Binder issue- four churches- St Cuthbert, We-Jas, Vecna, Hieroneous, teamed up to eliminate practice of binding (though the team broke up and the Order is now secret)

At the time, "the gods" were angry enough about the whole "priest of cause" issue to reduce the solar who revealed it to planetar rank when he reported the last words of the demon he slew, to make it clear how foolish the concept was (peopled listen to him, and discovered it actually worked)

When he rebelled, he was cast out.

Ur-priests is a harder question , but the class begun in Vile Darkness- it makes sense that Good priesthoods would deal with it severely.

1) Yes, good deities are likely to make a big deal out of Ur-Priests because they are evil which has nothing to do with stealing things from anyone, and doesn't make them more hated then:

An Evil Cleric
An Evil Fighter
An Evil Wizard
A Lich
A Demon
ect.

2) All that Binder fluff is bull**** and completely contradicts the deity descriptions. They just wanted to give someone a reason to care about Binders. Of course, they didn't. But that's okay, because we don't need to be told what every being on the planet thinks of every other being.

And I don't know where you are getting all this of the cause solar history crap from, but it's not like someone needs to be told that believing in a cause makes them a Cleric of it. Clerics of causes have always existed, because there has always been someone who believed enough to have powers from it.

Jayabalard
2008-11-14, 04:00 PM
Yes they are. Because you can't play a Lord Of the Rings style game in D&D without first declaring that 12 classes are completely off limits and don't even exist in the world, along with 3/4ths of the MM.I don't agree, but even if that were the case, I fail to see a problem.

You aren't playing D&D. You seem be laboring under the delusion that D&D = the game as you personally choose to play it, which isn't the case at all.


And I don't know where you are getting all this of the cause solar history crap from, but it's not like someone needs to be told that believing in a cause makes them a Cleric of it. Clerics of causes have always existed, because there has always been someone who believed enough to have powers from it.This is game world dependent.


This is dependent of the organization in question, and how you angered them. Just being an Ur-priest isn't an instant "every god in existence sends solars/demons after you." Its more of a "be very very careful, or every church in the world will be after you". After all stupidity is it's own punishment. If an Ur-priest spend time hiding his tracks, setting up fall guys, faking his death and whatnot, it could be years before the high priest manages to see through the facade. If the Ur-priest walks up to the church and actually outs himself. He's going to die. Because he basically insulted the god and it's church. They are going to take the time to make an example of this blasphemer and kill him in such a way so he stays dead.

Think about it this way, if a 6th level rogue sleeps with the kings daughter/wife, do you think he's going to send 6th-8th level fighters after him? Of course not, it's ludicrous to think so. He's going to get the biggest meanest people in the land to hunt down and kill the rogue.

Killing a character because he made a stupid mistake isn't bad DMing in the least. Sometimes it's the only senseible response.Agreed;

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 04:01 PM
being "way better" doesn't equate to being invulnerable. PCs are small fish in a big pond- true, the big fish are rare, but no less dangerous for that.

Mob rules in Cityscape and Dungeonscape- can make individually weak commoners into a dangerous swarm. PC does something really offensive in town- Angry Mob moves in on them and they'd better leg it.

Elder Evils sourcebook: a long time ago, an obyrith demon revealed the secret of divine power gained from Cause, not Deity, to solar, with dying words. Solar revealed it to others in attempt to debunk it. Secret spread.

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 04:07 PM
I wonder- might the evil, but not exceptionally malevolent- the Idealistically Evil, Ur-priests, be teamed with the Athar- devoted to opposing the gods, debunking them- proving they are just very powerful outsiders?

Ur-priest is in Vile darkness and Complete Divine- both supplements.

Lycar
2008-11-14, 04:35 PM
I'm sorry, no, I'm not getting anything confused. Did you see me claim that people should expect to never fight something tougher? No, you didn't. I am only describing what they get.

Wait, maybe there's some misunderstanding. :smallconfused:

If I understand you right, you do not complain about the Ur-Priest having enemies (and thus having NPCs come to mess with him if he is not carefull enough to keep his secret (if he does, yes, the GM has no buisiness sending people after him in the first place)), but about these foes being expected to be too tough to handle for the character?

Well, I totally agree with that. As I said, getting curb-stomped isn't fun. Squeaking by narrowly by escaping from overpowering enemies by hair's breadth on a regular basis can be fun. If you like that kind of game that is.

But if a GM just kills off a character without good reason (like the character just doesn't fit into the existing party and the GM decides that, to preserve the fun for the majority of the players, the troublesome character just has to go), he's not doing it right. Totally agree there.

So: I already posted why I believe that Ur-Priests should be hunted down by the gods and their followers. However, even if the relevant forces send out a task force that the character has no hope of defeating, it is the job of the GM to give the player a chance to keep his character alive. By running away. By aquiring the magical means to defend himself properly. Whatever gets the job done.

If you, as a GM, do believe that someone like an Ur-Priest should be exterminated with excessive force and extreme prejudice by every god in the pantheon however, then it's your job to make that perfectly clear to the player asking to play one of those before the game starts!

Replace Ur-Priest with Paladin, Binder, Assassin *whatever* as appropriate.

Does this sum up your feelings? :smallconfused:



1) If you are playing a game in which spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities don't exist, you aren't actually playing D&D anymore.

2) None of those things make D&D unfun. Stripping D&D of them all does make it unfun. Or at least, less fun then sitting in a room with your friends freeforming. Because the rules of D&D do not add any fun to anything if you start by banning everything that is more complex then run around stabbing things.

NONE of these things? Would you seriously allow a player, any player to bring Pun-Pun to the table?! :smallconfused:

Some things just can make a game (at least as planned by the GM) unplayable. These things need to go, period. If that means that the game is no longer fun for you, you need another GM. Or the two of you need to compromise. You know, as in "Okay, I'll allow divine metamagic but Nightsticks are out."



Why does everyone I end up arguing with sign their name. Is their any possible purpose to it?

Call me old fashioned. I'm used to signing my letters. Although it has admittedly been quite a while since I last wrote a letter with an actual pen on actual paper.

Does that make me old? :smalleek::smalltongue:

Lycar

hamishspence
2008-11-14, 04:38 PM
other posters did end of post signing. And got yelled at by various other people for doing so. I don't mind it, but be aware of fact that EE was getting nagged by many others for doing so.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-14, 05:51 PM
So your telling me there is no dramatic tension in the players doing everything in their power to escape/fight an overpowering force?

No, I said "If the GM exterminates you with no chance of success or escape via Scry/Die level 20 witch hunters, he's doing it wrong." - Running away scenarios are a perfectly fine thing, but please keep in mind, unless you don't play a solar or any other higher-ranked celestial to the hilt, (Don't solars get wish as a SLA, and can fly? And many other nasty things?) your party won't get away.

What I *WAS* complaining about, specifically, is the claim that a church should "be smart and send in bigger guys in rapid succession", which is NOT fine. This sort of thing should never be done *unless* you want to play a refugee campaign. Against an oppressive and brutal church state.

Without the "Refugee Campaign" qualifier, the scenario simply turns into a "Sadistic GM" scenario, where rocks fall and everyone dies. Except it's Solars instead of rocks. The kind of vindictive GM who is actively antagonistic towards his players, and isn't happy unless there is a full-party TPK. *THAT* is what I'm complaining about. I never said running was a bad thing, simply that that style of GMing- As well as sending overpowering encounters like that as standard church protocol- "Because it's the smart thing to do"- is a bad plan. To cultivate a proper heroic "Small group triumphs over larger organization without Deus Ex Machine ring to throw in volcano" atmosphere, sometimes the villain really needs to carry the "Villain Ball". (Even Sauron and his minions tossed it around. Not that LotR has any bearing on how DnD games should be played, just saying.)

And now to split a hair- At the point Solars start coming down to kill the party, it would technically no longer be "the church" at that point, and more "the Gods and their host directly".


As I said, getting curb-stomped isn't fun. Squeaking by narrowly by escaping from overpowering enemies by hair's breadth on a regular basis can be fun. If you like that kind of game that is.

Also, this- and the entire rest of the post- is made of win. Ja Wohl!

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 07:27 PM
However, even if the relevant forces send out a task force that the character has no hope of defeating, it is the job of the GM to give the player a chance to keep his character alive. By running away. By aquiring the magical means to defend himself properly. Whatever gets the job done.

If you, as a GM, do believe that someone like an Ur-Priest should be exterminated with excessive force and extreme prejudice by every god in the pantheon however, then it's your job to make that perfectly clear to the player asking to play one of those before the game starts!

Replace Ur-Priest with Paladin, Binder, Assassin *whatever* as appropriate.

Does this sum up your feelings?

Close enough. I say that the DM should just skip the OP force defeated by power of plot and just give a plot reason why you only face appropriate fights.

Look at Red Hand of Doom for example. You've got Crazy Dragons and tons of level 8 Clerics. But the PCs never fight that.


NONE of these things? Would you seriously allow a player, any player to bring Pun-Pun to the table?!

Some things just can make a game (at least as planned by the GM) unplayable. These things need to go, period. If that means that the game is no longer fun for you, you need another GM. Or the two of you need to compromise. You know, as in "Okay, I'll allow divine metamagic but Nightsticks are out."

None, because as soon as you start limiting things to "unplayable as planned by the DM." You get DMs that say, "Well teleport clearly exists, your enemies are going to keep using it, and you have it in your spellbook, but you can't use it intelligently like that, because it defeats my campaign!"

And that way leads only horror.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 07:34 PM
You seem be laboring under the delusion that D&D = the game as you personally choose to play it, which isn't the case at all.

You seem to be under the impression that a metal tube is a flashlight.


Elder Evils sourcebook: a long time ago, an obyrith demon revealed the secret of divine power gained from Cause, not Deity, to solar, with dying words. Solar revealed it to others in attempt to debunk it. Secret spread.

A) Primary Source Rule, that contradicts PHB and DMG.

B) What setting? It can't actually have happened unless it happened somewhere.

C) That is the stupidest most illogical thing ever. How many Clerics of Causes are told that they can become one before being one? Very few. So why does it matter if people know that? They are a Cleric of the Cause because they believe in it. Did people just not believe in ideals before a Demon told them they could?

D) Notice the traditional dichotomy of good/evil where good is believing and evil is being your own person. It's like WotC still can't remember that there's a guy called Hextor who devoted himself to brutally punishing people. Oh, and he's a God.

E) That's actually just an allegory for WotC, they thought the cause thing was unimportant and so all their long winded stuff about Gods was really important, then everyone started playing Cause Clerics and they got all whiny about it.


Ur-priest is in Vile darkness and Complete Divine- both supplements.

Yes they are. We all already know that. Is there a point?

Zeful
2008-11-14, 08:14 PM
What I *WAS* complaining about, specifically, is the claim that a church should "be smart and send in bigger guys in rapid succession", which is NOT fine. This sort of thing should never be done *unless* you want to play a refugee campaign. Against an oppressive and brutal church state.
I disagree, in order for the church to be successful, they have to be smart enough to know who to hunt and how much force is efficient. If the players kill enough low level clergy, the church will jump to high-level clergy, because it's not efficient to send scaling mooks at their enemies when they've been killed. But then the players should only be hunted for grievous offenses based on the individual religion. So the players managed to bring this situation upon themselves.


Without the "Refugee Campaign" qualifier, the scenario simply turns into a "Sadistic GM" scenario, where rocks fall and everyone dies. Except it's Solars instead of rocks. The kind of vindictive GM who is actively antagonistic towards his players, and isn't happy unless there is a full-party TPK. *THAT* is what I'm complaining about. I never said running was a bad thing, simply that that style of GMing- As well as sending overpowering encounters like that as standard church protocol- "Because it's the smart thing to do"- is a bad plan. To cultivate a proper heroic "Small group triumphs over larger organization without Deus Ex Machine ring to throw in volcano" atmosphere, sometimes the villain really needs to carry the "Villain Ball". (Even Sauron and his minions tossed it around. Not that LotR has any bearing on how DnD games should be played, just saying.)
Hero's aren't the kind to offend many. Much less large organizations. By softening the tactics used by the PCs enemies, you are essentially coddling them. If a BBEG has a 20 or 30 int I expect him to have enough contingency plans for any of his schemes to bury the PCs. I expect him to send his more powerful Lieutenants after the PCs have become a nuisance. Anything less is an insult to his massive intelligence.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-14, 08:35 PM
Upgrading two steps is called sending a Solar against a level 14 party.

CRs are:
Astral Deva/Hound Archon Hero 14
Planetar 16
Solar 22.

If you are upgrading two steps from the Astral Deva whole failed to kill the level 14 character (or level 10 party, although, Astral Devas actually always win against level 10 Evil parties) Then you are going to send a Solar Next, and you are going to send it after at level 15 character.

Tell you what, I'll run a challenge in which level 20 Clerics of every Deity are constantly Divining for Ur-Priests instead of actually advancing their deities cause. You start at whatever level you take your first level of Ur-Priest, they will send a CR enemy. Then another one. Then a Stronger one but you'll have leveled. And then they'll upgrade 2 steps, and send a Planetar at your level 10 character and kill you dead.

All of this is exactly the same as the Paladin discussion earlier. Demons and Devils and Lichs are super intelligent too, why do they keep sending people that you can beat? Why doesn't every party die instantly upon existing because all the forces of evil are constantly divining for them and killing them? A) Because that's not a fun game when level 1 parties get Balor jumped. B) Because those high level characters and monsters have high level threats and monsters to deal with. And if they waste all their time tracking down an Ur-Priest 5 levels lower then them and killing him, then a Balor is going to take advantage of the situation to raze six churches and slaughter all the Clerics inside.

Forgive the sarcasm here but I think it's warranted. The gods only have celestial/fiendish servants? Really? I thought they had clerics or lower CR celestials with class levels who filled in the middle ground in the gap between TYPES of celestials.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-14, 09:25 PM
Hero's aren't the kind to offend many. Much less large organizations. By softening the tactics used by the PCs enemies, you are essentially coddling them. If a BBEG has a 20 or 30 int I expect him to have enough contingency plans for any of his schemes to bury the PCs. I expect him to send his more powerful Lieutenants after the PCs have become a nuisance. Anything less is an insult to his massive intelligence.

I'll agree with you on the first part, because of the "If they did something stupid" qualifier. While I wouldn't qualify "Being an Ur-Priest" as "Stupid", if they did something like setting the Archpope of Pelor on fire or something, sure. Unless it's just being used as an excuse to TPK your party for something that didn't really deserve it...

As for the quoted part, the whole "INT 20-30 (Or WIS 20-30) BBE guys should have tons of plans" things eventually boils down to "Asmodeus wins no matter what you do." style campaigns, and those aren't very heroic either, if played simply at that. What CAN be quite heroic if your party simply activates and succesfully defeats all of his various contingency plans until he runs out, or if the INT or WIS 20-30 character of the party comes up with his own "Xanatos Gambit" to defeat the BBEG's schemes. (Like that one time Zhang Liao convinced Cao Cao to not invade an unguarded yet critical fortress by simply sitting up on the walls and playing a Zither...) But having it be as simple as "INT 30 villain always wins" is... Anticlimactic, one could say. I simply cannot approve.

Zeful
2008-11-14, 09:38 PM
I'll agree with you on the first part, because of the "If they did something stupid" qualifier. While I wouldn't qualify "Being an Ur-Priest" as "Stupid", if they did something like setting the Archpope of Pelor on fire or something, sure. Unless it's just being used as an excuse to TPK your party for something that didn't really deserve it... Earlier on this page I brought that up. The players being stupid creates situations that are more likely to get them killed.
EDIT: post 127


As for the quoted part, the whole "INT 20-30 (Or WIS 20-30) BBE guys should have tons of plans" things eventually boils down to "Asmodeus wins no matter what you do." style campaigns, and those aren't very heroic either, if played simply at that. What CAN be quite heroic if your party simply activates and succesfully defeats all of his various contingency plans until he runs out, or if the INT or WIS 20-30 character of the party comes up with his own "Xanatos Gambit" to defeat the BBEG's schemes. (Like that one time Zhang Liao convinced Cao Cao to not invade an unguarded yet critical fortress by simply sitting up on the walls and playing a Zither...) But having it be as simple as "INT 30 villain always wins" is... Anticlimactic, one could say. I simply cannot approve.

I never said they should always win. I said they should always use good tactics. Smart people don't keep sending in mooks when the last wave failed. They might send in a general, maybe the espionage sector.
If the players play smart then they should be able to nullify many of the contingency plans. They can make their own plans to cripple the BBEG and his armies. Overall I expect Intelligence to defeat Intelligence. Not let the players win just because they're the heroes.

Roland St. Jude
2008-11-14, 09:42 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here. Thanks.

Prak
2008-11-15, 04:15 AM
There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

except that those 20 paladins have their own in world enemies, demons. and keep in mind the fact that demons were the first allies of the culture that SPAWNED Ur Priests, ie, the Vashar (because keep in mind, he Ur Priest first appeared in BoVD and was pretty much custom made for these well, Ur-humans, who also appeared in the BoVD). So an Ur priest pisses off a church, well, actually, lets say the church actually discovers his presence (which is something it's safe to assume he's hiding), and so they send a battalion of paladins after him (actually rather unlikely, as one ur priest probably doesn't make much difference... hell, they'd be more pissed at spellthieves who actually steal spells, Ur priests just syphon off a bit of divine energy, and no one notices because it doesn't actually take spells away from anyone), and the Ur Priest phones up his demon buddies, hell, he probably has demon relatives, and they come help him out. So the paladins call in a boat load of celestials, but maybe half actually show up, because, unlike demons, celestials actually have better things to do than curb-stomp theological fungus. So now the good guys outnumber the baddies again, right, well, unlikely, because the Ur Priest can get pretty much as many demons as he wants because all he needs to do is say "hey guys, free celestial meat!" and demons show up in bibs carrying doggie bags for the left-overs. lets say he phones up his succubus harem and gets 19 demons, so numbers wise it's even. Then each paladin phones up his celestial Uke, and maybe half respond, because, well, the others have actual threats to curb stomp, so it's bad guys 20, good guys 30... well, those 19 demons then use their summon ability, and we can assume, with a 30% chance, and rounding up to 30% of 20, that 6 vrocks show up. So now it's baddies 26, good guys 30... huh, good's still got the numbers, eh? well, lets not forget that the Ur Priest probably has at least 3 twisted archon rapers that follow him around, ie, his party, so it's more like B29:G30. If the Ur Priest is the "Divine (Bl)aster" of his party, that means there's a tank, a sneak, and an Arcane (Bl)aster. Guess what the evil arcanist does! Summon! and hell, I'm pegging this at around Lv/Cr 7, so let's take a look at what a Lv7 Wiz can cast:
any one of the following:
Archon, lantern (LG)
Celestial giant owl (LG)
Celestial giant eagle (CG)
Celestial lion (CG)
Mephit (any) (N)
Fiendish dire wolf (LE)
Fiendish giant wasp (LE)
Fiendish giant praying mantis (NE)
Fiendish shark, Large (NE) (okay, they're probably on land, so probably not this...)
Yeth hound (NE)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Large (CE)
Fiendish snake, Huge viper (CE)
Howler (CE)

1d3 of the following:
Celestial black bear (LG)
Celestial bison (NG)
Celestial dire badger (CG)
Celestial hippogriff (CG)
Elemental, Small (any) (N)
Fiendish ape (LE)
Fiendish dire weasel (LE)
Hell hound (LE)
Fiendish snake, constrictor (LE)
Fiendish boar (NE)
Fiendish dire bat (NE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Huge (NE)
Fiendish crocodile (CE)
Dretch (demon) (CE)
Fiendish snake, Large viper (CE)
Fiendish wolverine (CE)

or 1d4+1 of the following
Celestial giant bee (LG)
Celestial giant bombardier beetle (NG)
Celestial riding dog (NG)
Celestial eagle (CG)
Lemure (devil) (LE)
Fiendish squid (LE) (again, land, disregard)
Fiendish wolf (LE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large (NE)
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium (NE)
Fiendish shark, Medium (NE) (land...)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium (CE)
Fiendish snake, Medium viper (CE)
Celestial dog (LG)
Celestial owl (LG)
Celestial giant fire beetle (NG)
Celestial porpoise (NG) (land...)
Celestial badger (CG)
Celestial monkey (CG)
Fiendish dire rat (LE)
Fiendish raven (LE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium (NE)
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small (NE)
Fiendish hawk (CE)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small (CE)
Fiendish octopus (CE) (land)
Fiendish snake, Small viper (CE)

so, if we're looking at pure numbers, one summon can make them even or favour the baddies' side. Because he's an arcane caster, the wiz can even summon celestial creatures for extra lulz.

and this is if we're just dealing with numbers... if we want to actually look at power, the Ur priest isn't frightened by a score of paladins... they have, what, one first level spell then they have to stick to martial abilities... however... since we're talking power, let's talk tactics... the wiz casts dimension door and two of the four mortals teleport away 100' with him. The Vrocks move out 20 ft, and join hands in two groups of three and start dancing, anyone with fewer than about ten ranks in Kn. Planar has no clue whats going on (sorry pallys!), and people are probably watching the 31st Bisexual Demon Brigade, also known as 19 succubbi in one place, anyway. Next turn, the paladins have snapped out of it, and the wizard pops back having spent this turn casting fly and then double moving back to the original site, paladins are probably still coming down the hill, Vrocks are still dancing, succubbi are trying to make paladins break various vows of celibacy and chastity(since most people seem to assume paladins have 'em...), third turn, wizard has second 4th level spell for the day because he's not an idiot and has the highest int. possible, netting him at least that, and casts dimension door again, or he can just reduce the remaining party member and carry him off flying. Vrocks finish dancing and EVERY NON-DEMON IN 100' RADIUS TAKES 20D6 DAMAGE! Oh, I'm sorry, there were two groups of Vrocks, make that 40D6!! Even on average damage that's going to be 140 pts of damage, Ref for half, and paladins have bad ref. Let's assume they're knight-style paladins, dex is a dump stat, and they've got +2 on their pertinent save... DC is 18, 16 or better need for save, so 20% chance of saving, 4 paladins actually make the save and only take 70 damage... a paladin7 probably has 78hp, on average... so... 16 paladins just died. Now, about those celestial ukes... the closest thing to a level appropriate aid for a paladin is a hound archon(CR 4) (apparently these paladins are furries... whatever), let's make things even by giving each of 'em 3 levels of paladin, so the average Hound Archon paladin has 51-ish hp... and a ref save of +6 so a 12 or better saves, so a 45% chance of taking half damage, hell, lets be generous and round up to 50%, so 5 hound archons take full damage (at least 40, and on average 140) and 5 take half (at least 20, 70 on average, and at most 240). Use of averages says we've got 5 "dead" archons and 5 at 11 hp.
We're now at Baddies 25 demons probably near full health, if not at, and good guys 4 paladins at 8hp, and 5 hound archons at 11. The vrocks take their move action to get adjacent to the good guys (we were already nice once, lets assume they're scattered in such away that they're each adjacent to at least one vrock, it could be worse...) and release their spores as a free action, each good guy takes 1d8, automatically, average 4.5... then the spores grow and deal 1d4 each round for 10 rounds, so another 2.5 damage to each good guy, on average(7 dam. to each GG so far). The vrocks still have std. actions... so let's say each one claws at an archon, average attack roll is 25, which hits an archon with 6 pts to spare... and 3 archons take 2d6+6 damage (avg. 13) and go down. The succubii close with the weakened targets (2 archons and 4 pallys) and tear them apart (6 lead the attack, the remaining 13 aid another, so 2 aiding 'cubbiis per lead, one remaining, lets say she just watches, and um, "whatever"). Lead 'cubbi each have a +11 to their attacks(Avg roll 21 beats AC 19). Remaining 2 archons go down with 1d6+1 claws (avg. 4.5 dam, tot. dam for turn: 11.5). Now, pallys, they've got an AC of 20 (DMG NPC Stats, pg120). Mid Game HP review: 4 paladins have 1hp each. Succubi tear off choice bits with their avg. +21 atk roll and avg. 4.5 dam. Party gets back having ran last two turns(held actions till after the wave of darkness to run back). Say good work and let the demons take home some fresh meat.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 04:30 AM
Exactly, see. The Ur-Priest wins. And since the Church knows this will happen, and are super smart and only care about Ur-Priests and nothing else, Instead of 20 Paladins of appropriate level, what a single level 7 Ur-Priest and his party faces is an Astral Deva.

The Astral Deva flies invisibly over the hill, and then uses it's standard action to Holy Word the party. They all die without even knowing what was going on, game over. Solars Fall and Everybody Dies!

See how that's way more sensible then an Ur-Priest being able to walk around having a good time?

Chineselegolas
2008-11-15, 04:44 AM
Course as someone said before, while that Astral Deva is out killing level 7 people, the CR 22 demons and devils are free to do what they want as their opposition is otherwise occupied.
So they could go and kill some level 10 paladins.

Or for laughs, go and kill any children before they can even get their first PC level.
Oh, and the Efreets in all their evilness can wish that all the people off good alignment with intelligence or wisdom of more than 12 to die.
Well they aren't PC's so the DM can't really mess up their wishes...

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 05:05 AM
the Elder Evils book doesn't directly contradict PHB, it merely has a "how Cause priests came into being" story. Effecively, How to do it was unknown, the angel, told them how, thinking it was impossible, the knowledge spread. Generic D&D universe (greyhawk, effectively, in 3.5)

Given that in many settings gods need worshippers to survive, if worship of them fades, and worship of Causes rises, they could be in trouble.

And if you are using a supplement-only PRC, then complaining that info in other supplements is not valid, seems a little unusual.

Heliomance
2008-11-15, 06:28 AM
except that those 20 paladins have their own in world enemies, demons. and keep in mind the fact that demons were the first allies of the culture that SPAWNED Ur Priests, ie, the Vashar (because keep in mind, he Ur Priest first appeared in BoVD and was pretty much custom made for these well, Ur-humans, who also appeared in the BoVD). So an Ur priest pisses off a church, well, actually, lets say the church actually discovers his presence (which is something it's safe to assume he's hiding), and so they send a battalion of paladins after him (actually rather unlikely, as one ur priest probably doesn't make much difference... hell, they'd be more pissed at spellthieves who actually steal spells, Ur priests just syphon off a bit of divine energy, and no one notices because it doesn't actually take spells away from anyone), and the Ur Priest phones up his demon buddies, hell, he probably has demon relatives, and they come help him out. So the paladins call in a boat load of celestials, but maybe half actually show up, because, unlike demons, celestials actually have better things to do than curb-stomp theological fungus. So now the good guys outnumber the baddies again, right, well, unlikely, because the Ur Priest can get pretty much as many demons as he wants because all he needs to do is say "hey guys, free celestial meat!" and demons show up in bibs carrying doggie bags for the left-overs. lets say he phones up his succubus harem and gets 19 demons, so numbers wise it's even. Then each paladin phones up his celestial Uke, and maybe half respond, because, well, the others have actual threats to curb stomp, so it's bad guys 20, good guys 30... well, those 19 demons then use their summon ability, and we can assume, with a 30% chance, and rounding up to 30% of 20, that 6 vrocks show up. So now it's baddies 26, good guys 30... huh, good's still got the numbers, eh? well, lets not forget that the Ur Priest probably has at least 3 twisted archon rapers that follow him around, ie, his party, so it's more like B29:G30. If the Ur Priest is the "Divine (Bl)aster" of his party, that means there's a tank, a sneak, and an Arcane (Bl)aster. Guess what the evil arcanist does! Summon! and hell, I'm pegging this at around Lv/Cr 7, so let's take a look at what a Lv7 Wiz can cast:
any one of the following:
Archon, lantern (LG)
Celestial giant owl (LG)
Celestial giant eagle (CG)
Celestial lion (CG)
Mephit (any) (N)
Fiendish dire wolf (LE)
Fiendish giant wasp (LE)
Fiendish giant praying mantis (NE)
Fiendish shark, Large (NE) (okay, they're probably on land, so probably not this...)
Yeth hound (NE)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Large (CE)
Fiendish snake, Huge viper (CE)
Howler (CE)

1d3 of the following:
Celestial black bear (LG)
Celestial bison (NG)
Celestial dire badger (CG)
Celestial hippogriff (CG)
Elemental, Small (any) (N)
Fiendish ape (LE)
Fiendish dire weasel (LE)
Hell hound (LE)
Fiendish snake, constrictor (LE)
Fiendish boar (NE)
Fiendish dire bat (NE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Huge (NE)
Fiendish crocodile (CE)
Dretch (demon) (CE)
Fiendish snake, Large viper (CE)
Fiendish wolverine (CE)

or 1d4+1 of the following
Celestial giant bee (LG)
Celestial giant bombardier beetle (NG)
Celestial riding dog (NG)
Celestial eagle (CG)
Lemure (devil) (LE)
Fiendish squid (LE) (again, land, disregard)
Fiendish wolf (LE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large (NE)
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium (NE)
Fiendish shark, Medium (NE) (land...)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium (CE)
Fiendish snake, Medium viper (CE)
Celestial dog (LG)
Celestial owl (LG)
Celestial giant fire beetle (NG)
Celestial porpoise (NG) (land...)
Celestial badger (CG)
Celestial monkey (CG)
Fiendish dire rat (LE)
Fiendish raven (LE)
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium (NE)
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small (NE)
Fiendish hawk (CE)
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small (CE)
Fiendish octopus (CE) (land)
Fiendish snake, Small viper (CE)

so, if we're looking at pure numbers, one summon can make them even or favour the baddies' side. Because he's an arcane caster, the wiz can even summon celestial creatures for extra lulz.

and this is if we're just dealing with numbers... if we want to actually look at power, the Ur priest isn't frightened by a score of paladins... they have, what, one first level spell then they have to stick to martial abilities... however... since we're talking power, let's talk tactics... the wiz casts dimension door and two of the four mortals teleport away 100' with him. The Vrocks move out 20 ft, and join hands in two groups of three and start dancing, anyone with fewer than about ten ranks in Kn. Planar has no clue whats going on (sorry pallys!), and people are probably watching the 31st Bisexual Demon Brigade, also known as 19 succubbi in one place, anyway. Next turn, the paladins have snapped out of it, and the wizard pops back having spent this turn casting fly and then double moving back to the original site, paladins are probably still coming down the hill, Vrocks are still dancing, succubbi are trying to make paladins break various vows of celibacy and chastity(since most people seem to assume paladins have 'em...), third turn, wizard has second 4th level spell for the day because he's not an idiot and has the highest int. possible, netting him at least that, and casts dimension door again, or he can just reduce the remaining party member and carry him off flying. Vrocks finish dancing and EVERY NON-DEMON IN 100' RADIUS TAKES 20D6 DAMAGE! Oh, I'm sorry, there were two groups of Vrocks, make that 40D6!! Even on average damage that's going to be 140 pts of damage, Ref for half, and paladins have bad ref. Let's assume they're knight-style paladins, dex is a dump stat, and they've got +2 on their pertinent save... DC is 18, 16 or better need for save, so 20% chance of saving, 4 paladins actually make the save and only take 70 damage... a paladin7 probably has 78hp, on average... so... 16 paladins just died. Now, about those celestial ukes... the closest thing to a level appropriate aid for a paladin is a hound archon(CR 4) (apparently these paladins are furries... whatever), let's make things even by giving each of 'em 3 levels of paladin, so the average Hound Archon paladin has 51-ish hp... and a ref save of +6 so a 12 or better saves, so a 45% chance of taking half damage, hell, lets be generous and round up to 50%, so 5 hound archons take full damage (at least 40, and on average 140) and 5 take half (at least 20, 70 on average, and at most 240). Use of averages says we've got 5 "dead" archons and 5 at 11 hp.
We're now at Baddies 25 demons probably near full health, if not at, and good guys 4 paladins at 8hp, and 5 hound archons at 11. The vrocks take their move action to get adjacent to the good guys (we were already nice once, lets assume they're scattered in such away that they're each adjacent to at least one vrock, it could be worse...) and release their spores as a free action, each good guy takes 1d8, automatically, average 4.5... then the spores grow and deal 1d4 each round for 10 rounds, so another 2.5 damage to each good guy, on average(7 dam. to each GG so far). The vrocks still have std. actions... so let's say each one claws at an archon, average attack roll is 25, which hits an archon with 6 pts to spare... and 3 archons take 2d6+6 damage (avg. 13) and go down. The succubii close with the weakened targets (2 archons and 4 pallys) and tear them apart (6 lead the attack, the remaining 13 aid another, so 2 aiding 'cubbiis per lead, one remaining, lets say she just watches, and um, "whatever"). Lead 'cubbi each have a +11 to their attacks(Avg roll 21 beats AC 19). Remaining 2 archons go down with 1d6+1 claws (avg. 4.5 dam, tot. dam for turn: 11.5). Now, pallys, they've got an AC of 20 (DMG NPC Stats, pg120). Mid Game HP review: 4 paladins have 1hp each. Succubi tear off choice bits with their avg. +21 atk roll and avg. 4.5 dam. Party gets back having ran last two turns(held actions till after the wave of darkness to run back). Say good work and let the demons take home some fresh meat.

Church then goes "holy crap he took out 20 paladins, this guy is a serious threat" and intead of sending 21 paladins, ups its assessment of his power and sends something significantly larger.

On the other hand, neither paladins nor ur-priest will havea direct ine to outiders to just go "hey, feel like lending me a hand here?" so those 10 celestials and 19 demons just won't show up. So it's just 20 paladins vs ur-priest and three or four allies. There is no way a level 7 ur-priest is going to be summoning vrocks. It's just not going to happen.

Prak
2008-11-15, 07:38 AM
I wouldnt call it the DM hating you, perhaps you should have read the background before picking the class.

For some reason i cant see servents of Pelor allowing the injustice that is you to live.

For some reason, I really can't see Pelor caring... You aren't actually stealing magic from anyone until UP10 when you're stealing spell LIKE abilities. The flavour can say whatever it wants about GrimDark agnostics stealing divine magic but unless you have to actually go and intercept magic being granted to clerics, you're a brawny paper towel on the ass of the universe soaking up magical radiation... No one cares, Pelor still gets his burnt offerings and tithes, his priests still get to eat said burnt offerings(remember, they're the choice cuts of the harvest, because only the best will do for "Pelor") and spend said tithes, and the peasants see another priest except he talks about exploiting the gods rather than being exploted by them.


Yeah, but fluff states for the Ur-Priest that they do their theft sneakily to avoid notice. Even the gods are fallible in D&D.
Especially the gods are fallible in D&D...


If the Ur-Priest stands outside the church screaming, "come get me suckers!" Then he clearly wants his character to die (unless he's high enough level, and has done the research to know he can kill that church off himself).
You just put an image in my mind of Spider Jerusalem as an Ur Priest waving his junk at a temple shouting essentially that, just ladden with explitives... and made me very happy.


We're not saying he'd be hunted down because he gets 9th level spells in 10 levels. We're saying he'd be hunted down because he's STEALING FROM A GOD.
Which you brought up as a way to balance their casting.
again:

There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

...so how do words taste? I'm just wondering because the closest I've ever come to having to eat them is alphabet soup... and I'm actually not entirely sure I've ever eaten alphabet soup, come to think of it...


THIS!
Stealing magic from the gods (actually stealing it from their followers as it's given to them) does not have to be an intrinsic disadvantage of Ur-Priest. A character has his own flavor and personality, you take whichever class has the skill set to best describe that, not whichever class has the built-in flavor text that best matches your character. The flavor text of a class is not a set of rules, that's why they include the possibility of an adaptation: you worship a dead god and take what magic he's left around rather than stealing magic from other gods. Trying to force a PC to use the built-in flavor of a given class is bad DMing and bad RPing. Let them play their character, don't try to force them to play their class and then punish them for it.

A lot of people here seem to think that Ur-Priest is overpowered and so anyone who plays one deserves to be punished for it through RP. That is simply not the case. As I pointed out earlier, a character taking Ur-Priest has to fall behind for half of their adventuring career, only to be ahead by no more than two spell levels, for a total of five character levels, before everyone else catches back up with them. Furthermore, WotC does include RP balances for things that are mechanically overpowered (Saint), but if that was the case with Ur-Priest, then they would not have put in an Adaptation that completely removes it. Ur-Priest is not so overpowered that you need to punish players for taking it through RP, and using RP to balance powerful game mechanics is not good DMing.
Well, to be honest, a lot of people hate the UP because they're the D&D equivalent of satanists... but then again, some people like them because of that...:biggrin:


Zero sum blasphemy, basically.
Ok, I like that...


Why would the church bother sending the Justice Archons then? Why would it send anyone if they haven't got better than fair odds of actually winning the fight? If they haven't, which if they're CR equivalent they don't, then it's jut meaninglessly sacrificing minions for no gain. You'd send someone capable of getting the job done. If they prove stronger than you expected and win anyway, then you adjust your estimation of their strength and send someone stronger.
Ok, one on one, there's a fifty-fifty shot of either the character or his CR equivalent winning, when you factor in a party, it's just like a monster group, each doubling of the base force with equal-Lv character adds two to the base lv. So a group of four adventurers can take on a threat 4 CRs above them and win something like 25% of the time.


On the other hand, neither paladins nor ur-priest will havea direct ine to outiders to just go "hey, feel like lending me a hand here?" so those 10 celestials and 19 demons just won't show up. So it's just 20 paladins vs ur-priest and three or four allies. There is no way a level 7 ur-priest is going to be summoning vrocks. It's just not going to happen.
On the first hand, however, the DM called up some bull**** npcs to harass the Ur-Priest, so to keep things fair, the Ur-Priest should be able to phone up is demon harem, which in turn, by RAW, can summon 5-6 vrocks. If he calls up ~19 succubi. My scenario actually kept fairness in the equation of an unfair scenario. If you want a rule that allows him to do that... well, give him a high charisma so he can actually have a succubbi harem and give him a necklace of sending(50 charges, usable 1/day), it'd be 4200g.

Heliomance
2008-11-15, 07:55 AM
For some reason, I really can't see Pelor caring... You aren't actually stealing magic from anyone until UP10 when you're stealing spell LIKE abilities. The flavour can say whatever it wants about GrimDark agnostics stealing divine magic but unless you have to actually go and intercept magic being granted to clerics, you're a brawny paper towel on the ass of the universe soaking up magical radiation...
Uh... that's what Ur-Priests do. They intercept the spells being granted to clerics.


No one cares, Pelor still gets his burnt offerings and tithes, his priests still get to eat said burnt offerings(remember, they're the choice cuts of the harvest, because only the best will do for "Pelor") and spend said tithes, and the peasants see another priest except he talks about exploiting the gods rather than being exploted by them.

And you think the gods want someone going round talking about exploiting them rather than worshipping them?



Especially the gods are fallible in D&D...


You just put an image in my mind of Spider Jerusalem as an Ur Priest waving his junk at a temple shouting essentially that, just ladden with explitives... and made me very happy.


Which you brought up as a way to balance their casting.
again:


...so how do words taste? I'm just wondering because the closest I've ever come to having to eat them is alphabet soup... and I'm actually not entirely sure I've ever eaten alphabet soup, come to think of it...
I'm not sure why you think I should be eating my words. In game, they're not being hunted down because they've got level 9 spells earlier than they should. In game, people have no concept of "level 9 spells" nor "character level", they just see someone unusually powerful. In game, they're being hunted down because they're stealing from the gods. Out of game, the flavour that suggests this, when run by a good DM, can be used as a balance mechanism for the fact that they are more powerful than they should be at that level.



Well, to be honest, a lot of people hate the UP because they're the D&D equivalent of satanists... but then again, some people like them because of that...:biggrin:
*rolleyes*
They're really not. People who make fiendish pacts with the demons are the equivalent of satanists.



Ok, I like that...


Ok, one on one, there's a fifty-fifty shot of either the character or his CR equivalent winning, when you factor in a party, it's just like a monster group, each doubling of the base force with equal-Lv character adds two to the base lv. So a group of four adventurers can take on a threat 4 CRs above them and win something like 25% of the time.
Okay, you have no idea of how the CR system works. A party should be able to curbstomp a CR equivalent encounter, burning through about 25% of their daily resources. An encounter 4CRs above them they should still reliably beat, but it would actually be a tough fight, using most of their resources. The overwhelming ones which they're not winning except through sheer chance are 5 or more CRs above the party.



On the first hand, however, the DM called up some bull**** npcs to harass the Ur-Priest, so to keep things fair, the Ur-Priest should be able to phone up is demon harem, which in turn, by RAW, can summon 5-6 vrocks. If he calls up ~19 succubi. My scenario actually kept fairness in the equation of an unfair scenario. If you want a rule that allows him to do that... well, give him a high charisma so he can actually have a succubbi harem and give him a necklace of sending(50 charges, usable 1/day), it'd be 4200g.
WHAT DEMON HAREM? HOW DOES HE CALL 19 SUCCUBI AT LEVEL 7?

Riffington
2008-11-15, 08:15 AM
You seem to be under the impression that a metal tube is a flashlight.


D&D contains a lot of elements that cannot all exist simultaneously. Each campaign contains some subset, but you can't say that there is One True Subset that defines D&D.
For example, you're unlikely to simultaneously have this Scry-kill tactic and Justicars. It would be a strange campaign that included organizations of mid-high level professional trackers when a 7th level Wizard could simply cast a spell to find the target instantaneously. Yet either is equally valid.

I personally happen to love the idea of a Warforged Justicar with Adamantine Body. He isn't very fast, but he never needs to sleep... just keeps on tirelessly pursuing.

Heliomance
2008-11-15, 08:41 AM
D&D contains a lot of elements that cannot all exist simultaneously. Each campaign contains some subset, but you can't say that there is One True Subset that defines D&D.
For example, you're unlikely to simultaneously have this Scry-kill tactic and Justicars. It would be a strange campaign that included organizations of mid-high level professional trackers when a 7th level Wizard could simply cast a spell to find the target instantaneously. Yet either is equally valid.

I personally happen to love the idea of a Warforged Justicar with Adamantine Body. He isn't very fast, but he never needs to sleep... just keeps on tirelessly pursuing.

Mr Pump does not need to eat. Mr Pump does not need to sleep. And Mr Pump, Mr Lipwig, does not stop.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 08:53 AM
Binders have enemies called "Witch Slayers". They certainly "make pacts"

Fiendish Codex 2 has "Pact Certain" and "Pact Insidious" offered by devils.

And Fiend Of Corruption can be any kind of fiend.

Ur-Priests are "Thieves of Divine Power" a bit like the "Thief of Arcane Power" the spellthief.

While they aren't the Athar, it wouldn't be too odd to have some among the ranks of the Athar.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 01:12 PM
Church then goes "holy crap he took out 20 paladins, this guy is a serious threat" and intead of sending 21 paladins, ups its assessment of his power and sends something significantly larger.

So in other words, "I'm going to TPK this party no matter what!"

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 01:14 PM
verisimilitude. Though, if Ur-priest is good at laying low, the heat will be off.

if he's capable of standing off most of the resources a churchhood can throw together, campaign must be very late.

Thing is- if a character is actively incuring enmity of big organizations, it makes sense for conflict, until either he is forced to run and hide, or they back off.

Heliomance
2008-11-15, 01:15 PM
What other logical response can the church make? A five year old could tell you that if you try something and it gets curbstomped, trying the same thing again won't work. Forget about OOC concerns about psycho DMs for a moment, and try to come up with a logical response for a church that's just heard that its task force of 20 paladins has just been wiped out?

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 01:18 PM
"Back off" is an option for the church, but Good aligned ones I suspect would call in support from others, or just put an "Avoid" warning out.

If Every town evacuates the moment the Ur-priest is reported as heading their way, he might go under cover.

This is possible result if nothing seems like it will faze him.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 02:01 PM
What other logical response can the church make? A five year old could tell you that if you try something and it gets curbstomped, trying the same thing again won't work. Forget about OOC concerns about psycho DMs for a moment, and try to come up with a logical response for a church that's just heard that its task force of 20 paladins has just been wiped out?

Give me a logical reason the church would send 20 Paladins after an ur-Priest in the first place.

A logical response is to just not spend resources trying to hunt some guy for no damn reason at all.

As a DM what you did was send a EL 15 encounter at a level 7 party, which means they just ****ing leveled anyway. And if you, as some stupid Church send out EL 15 hit squads at level 7 parties without any reason, then after they die, the correct response is to huddle in a ball and cry, because you can bet that while you were overreacting to people who aren't even your enemies, a couple Balors showed up and stabbed your church leaders in the face.

You no longer have a church at all.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 02:15 PM
Good people often send forces after great evils that are quiscent. Thats what adventurers do, after all. Dormant dragons, demon cults.

Ur-priest is in with the other Vile Darkness PRCs as "targets"

Or, for that matter, big force of paladins sent to massacre goblin village because member of cult with world-shaking ambitions is there.

now unless the Ur-priest was actively drawing attention, idea of church knowing he's a threat to them is pretty odd- divine messages?

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 02:25 PM
Good people often send forces after great evils that are quiscent. Thats what adventurers do, after all. Dormant dragons, demon cults.

But do good people usually send:

a) An adventuring party to take out an evil ur-priest and his cohorts

b) 20 Paladins all of the same level as the Ur-Priest in question, aka the creme of the crop.

Siegel
2008-11-15, 02:45 PM
You know... You can be a Ur-Priest of Carl Glittergold (or anther stealing deity) and worhip him by stealing a bit of divine power from his companions, or maybe you just steal energy from evil Gods.

What do you say about that ? It's true to the concept of Ur-Priest but still not 'Teh enemy of godkind', he is more of a 'fight fire with fire' dude...

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 03:17 PM
"ur-priests despise gods" Complete Divine, and Vile Darkness. Even thief gods.

If DM wishes to communicate that churches hunt Ur-priests, should do so carefully.

If priest make their nature obvious (preaching an anti-deity sermon, etc) paladins should be investigating. But they don't have to swoop down without warning. the sight of the questioning people should lead Ur-priest to sneak away quietly.

Big showdowns between him and them- why Woudn't churches get to hear of it and treat him as a major threat?

Now if said ur-priest never does anything to members of said churchs, paladins coming after him is hard to explain. Even Detect Evil doesn't give them that much excuse "This town doesn't like your kind. Leave on your feet, soon, or leave in a box" for the scarier ones, but not outright Kill On Sight.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 03:38 PM
"ur-priests despise gods" Complete Divine, and Vile Darkness. Even thief gods.

This is your problem.

Ur-Priest is something you do, not a state of mind. Taking a level in a class does not change my characters personality and belief.

Also, since I'm quoting you:

1) No one ever told Clerics of a Cause they could be Clerics of a Cause. They just are. It doesn't matter if you know you can be one or not. You just are one. That whole stupid backstory implies one of the following both of which are stupid:

a) The Demon created Causes himself and gave them power.
b) You have to be told by a higher power that your belief has power before it has actual power, but that higher power is not in any way related to the actual belief granting you power.

2) I am complaining about supplements backing up bull**** history that doesn't even make sense and contradicts established deity personalities.

That doesn't mean for some reason that I have to hate classes in splat books that have nothing to do with creating fake histories.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 03:44 PM
actually, its more the demon discovered it, or its a thing the gods carefully kept quiet, no-one else knew about it till told. Once told, it spread and now, if they want to, anyone can choose to be a cleric of a cause.

As the last 3.5 book, elder evils is the last word written by WOTC on clerics of a cause, and how people discovered you could follow one in the first place. Its an update to Greyhawk history, not a fake history.

Just because you don't like a supplement doesn't mean its fluff info isn't valid.

Note, in faerun, you can't be a cleric of a cause.

Remember the Ur-priest was 3.0, updated with minimal changes in 3.5. Things change over time, from edition to edition. Remeber its a prestige class that player must be Evil to use.

while two issues aren't directly related, they do show Deities in D&D context can be touchy about the whole divine power thing.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 03:50 PM
note that in ur-priest entry, it states cleric (all clerics) consider them "abominations"

so, the idea that every churches hand is turned against them does have support.

Maybe their likely allies are the equally persecuted (binders) or those philosophically opposed to churches (Athar)

Collin152
2008-11-15, 03:55 PM
note that in ur-priest entry, it states cleric (all clerics) consider them "abominations"

so, the idea that every churches hand is turned against them does have support.


You have to know who and what they are, first, though.

It's not like Clerics have "Stealing-from-my-God"-o'Vision.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 04:01 PM
sounds about right- gods do have power to sense what happens near their shrines, places they designate. then there is commune, divine messages, etc.

I'd say start small, build up, and only if Ur-priest draws attention. behave well around clerics and there may never be, the 20 paladin assault squad.

Siegel
2008-11-15, 04:39 PM
note that in ur-priest entry, it states cleric (all clerics) consider them "abominations"

so, the idea that every churches hand is turned against them does have support.

Maybe their likely allies are the equally persecuted (binders) or those philosophically opposed to churches (Athar)

what are Athar ?

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 04:46 PM
old planescape group, updated in planar handbook, believe gods are just very powerful outsiders, do not deserve worship, and actively work against them. Any clerics among them must be clerics of Causes, never deities.

Sertrous, the obyrith lord who revealed this secret to an angel, who rather dozily passed it on to mortals (and got demoted for this, rebelled, cast out) is called the Lord of Heretics.

MartinHarper
2008-11-15, 05:35 PM
But do good people usually send:

a) An adventuring party to take out an evil ur-priest and his cohorts

b) 20 Paladins all of the same level as the Ur-Priest in question, aka the creme of the crop.

In 3.5, per the Challenge Rating logic, good people normally send out a force that is capable of reliably defeating the challenge using only 25% of their daily resources. So a level 10 Ur-Priest would be an appropriate challenge for four level 10 paladins, and a party of four level 10 Ur-Priests would be an appropriate challenge for 16 level 10 paladins.

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 05:37 PM
"running into another adventuring party" hmm. ur-priest is in the position of NPC facing PCs of same CR.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 06:04 PM
{Scrubbed}

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 06:08 PM
it doesn't directly contradict it. sure, the idea of following "a cause" is common knowledge now, but according to those writers, it wasn't always common knowledge. Divine Power is not like lockpicking anyway.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 06:15 PM
it doesn't directly contradict it. sure, the idea of following "a cause" is common knowledge now, but according to those writers, it wasn't always common knowledge. Divine Power is not like lockpicking anyway.

So what! It doesn't matter if it's common knowledge. The fact that big Red Dragons that breathe fire are immune to fire isn't common knowledge in the D&D world.

It doesn't matter if Fighters know that Clerics can get kickass power from from belief doesn't matter.

The only things that matter are:

a) People already believed in things before a Demon told them they were allowed to.
b) People already got power from that belief before a Demon told them they were allowed to.

So someone saying that you can do something that you can already do changes nothing.

Zeful
2008-11-15, 06:20 PM
Give me a logical reason the church would send 20 Paladins after an ur-Priest in the first place. He made it obvious he was an Ur-priest. He then went and killed anyone who came after him.


A logical response is to just not spend resources trying to hunt some guy for no damn reason at all.

As a DM what you did was send a EL 15 encounter at a level 7 party, which means they just ****ing leveled anyway. And if you, as some stupid Church send out EL 15 hit squads at level 7 parties without any reason, then after they die, the correct response is to huddle in a ball and cry, because you can bet that while you were overreacting to people who aren't even your enemies, a couple Balors showed up and stabbed your church leaders in the face.

You no longer have a church at all.

Except paladins are the churches sword on the material. Archons, and other clestials keep the planar balance. Besides Demons have the blood war to worry about, what concern is a mortal?

hamishspence
2008-11-15, 06:46 PM
actually, it was an angel that told them a demon's dying words.

the idea of worshipping "a cause" is given a beginning, in the D&D world. Maybe beofre then, while some "revered justice" there weren't any "clerics of just Justice" before then, only clerics of that setting's God of Justice.

Things change over time- background gets expanded, new info arrives. PHB and DMG may have info, but, say, Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, Complete Divine, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, and finally, Elder Evils, expand on it. All WOTC info.

Rules get supplemented, and, for example, Rules Compendium overrides earlier versions of same rules- even those in Player's Handbook.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 07:14 PM
actually, it was an angel that told them a demon's dying words.

the idea of worshipping "a cause" is given a beginning, in the D&D world. Maybe beofre then, while some "revered justice" there weren't any "clerics of just Justice" before then, only clerics of that setting's God of Justice.

See this is wrong. It's absolutely wrong.

If belief previously didn't give power, and now does. Someone must have changed that. So unless you think saying something makes it true, no one did anything to change that.

Which means, there must have been Clerics of Justice before random Demon said anything.

Unless of course you think that no one actually believed in Justice before a Demon told them they were allowed to.

Prak
2008-11-15, 08:44 PM
Uh... that's what Ur-Priests do. They intercept the spells being granted to clerics.
except the mechanics don't support it.


And you think the gods want someone going round talking about exploiting them rather than worshipping them?
well, if they're still getting sacrifices, I don't think they care.


I'm not sure why you think I should be eating my words. In game, they're not being hunted down because they've got level 9 spells earlier than they should. In game, people have no concept of "level 9 spells" nor "character level", they just see someone unusually powerful. In game, they're being hunted down because they're stealing from the gods. Out of game, the flavour that suggests this, when run by a good DM, can be used as a balance mechanism for the fact that they are more powerful than they should be at that level.
"more powerful than they should be at that level"
Meh, they get ninth level spells two levels sooner than any one else (well, three with bonus spells)
of course... regular clerics can go buy candles of invocation and prepare spells as if they had eight additional levels...
And let's look at what's being said:
Ur Priests are too powerful! They get ninth level spells before anyone else!
Well, that's fine because you can just send bull**** platoons of paladins to curbstomp them because they steal from the gods!
Ok, so the paladins are hunting them because they steal Pelor's mojo, as if he notices.. the dm sends platoons of paladins out because they don't like that the Ur Priest is mildly better than anyone else.


*rolleyes*
They're really not. People who make fiendish pacts with the demons are the equivalent of satanists.
Really now! Ever hear of a man named Anton LaVey?



Okay, you have no idea of how the CR system works. A party should be able to curbstomp a CR equivalent encounter, burning through about 25% of their daily resources. An encounter 4CRs above them they should still reliably beat, but it would actually be a tough fight, using most of their resources. The overwhelming ones which they're not winning except through sheer chance are 5 or more CRs above the party.
Right, so other than you thinking I have no clue how the CR system works(sorry, I do, I studied under the closest thing I've found to a master...) we're on the same damn page.


WHAT DEMON HAREM? HOW DOES HE CALL 19 SUCCUBI AT LEVEL 7?
WHAT PALADIN BRIGADE? HOW DO 20 PALADINS TRACK DOWN A SINGLE DECEPTIVE, LYING, PROBABLY DISGUISED MORTAL WHO SOAKS UP PELOR'S EXTRA MOJO?


What other logical response can the church make? A five year old could tell you that if you try something and it gets curbstomped, trying the same thing again won't work. Forget about OOC concerns about psycho DMs for a moment, and try to come up with a logical response for a church that's just heard that its task force of 20 paladins has just been wiped out?

I think the logical response would be:
"Well $#!t, we can't devote the resources to deal with this guy right now, someone tell the upper planes."

I think the logical response of the upper planes would be:
"Yeah, sure, someone tack a number on him... we should get to him in about 45 million years, still dealing with the whole asmodeus problem..."

Lycar
2008-11-15, 10:47 PM
See this is wrong. It's absolutely wrong.

If belief previously didn't give power, and now does. Someone must have changed that. So unless you think saying something makes it true, no one did anything to change that.

Which means, there must have been Clerics of Justice before random Demon said anything.

Unless of course you think that no one actually believed in Justice before a Demon told them they were allowed to.

Explanation:

First there are gods.

Then they make stuff, like mortals. Because they can.

They tell these mortals: "I am god. God of X. If you like X, worship me."

And the mortals have no reason to believe otherwise. The same way that a small child believes his/her parents about Santa Claus.

So, in the beginning, THERE ARE NO people worshipping abstract ideals because the very idea is absurd to them! They simply cannot conceive of the concept.

But children grow up and ... start realizing things. Like that every time that Santa comes in to bring presents, daddy is conspicioulsy absent.

And finally one day, they stop believing in Santa.

So one day, mortals discover that they do not need the gods to get a slice of that divine mojo.

Like some time ago, people believed that the rest of the universe revolves around the earth. Because, from our point of view, it certainly looks like that.

Ancient greek astronomers figured out the movements of the moon and the visible planets. They just had needlessly complicated charts because they had it the wrong way around. The results were right, the idea about how it worked not.

Ancient believers: See that divine magic exist. See it coming from the gods. Conclusion: Magic comes from gods.

Only much later someone wonders if gods really just aren't just middlemen. Why would they limit themselves to certain portfolios?

People were always believing in something. They just also believed that they needed the gods for it to amount to anything.

So someone believing in Justice also believed, that you need to worship the appropriate god.

Until someone figured out that he can swim without someone holding him afloat, so to speak...

But before that, there simply WERE NO clerics of abstract philosophical concepts.

And even then, when someone figured it out before... maybe he just didn't bother to make anything of it? So much easier to just pray to a god then to go through all the trouble to steal that power...

The ancient romans, heck, even the greeks knew about the power of steam. They just didn't bother researching the concept. Sailships worked fine, slaves were plentiful, why bother?

It usually takes a driven soul to really push the envelope in anything. Since such driven individuals are usually also quite ruthless when it comes to pursuing their obsession, they also qualify for the Evil descriptor.

Ur-Priests aren't evil because they eat babies (although they could do that too), they are evil because they are so ruthless in their pursuit of power that they don't care about the consequences of their actions.

Namely: Threatening the Status Quo.

Think about it. Gods rule, mortals obey. In turn, they are given a slice of power. Gods of incompatible philosophies squabble or outright fight with one another, but as long as overall balance is maitained, life goes on as usual.

Ur-Priest tip the scales into a direction no god likes. That makes society unstable and causes unrest, and thus suffering. The Ur-Priests don't care about that. To them, it's the gods fault. Everybodies but their own. That's what makes them evil.

Lycar

Draken
2008-11-15, 11:18 PM
Explanation:

First there are gods.

Then they make stuff, like mortals. Because they can.

They tell these mortals: "I am god. God of X. If you like X, worship me."

And the mortals have no reason to believe otherwise. The same way that a small child believes his/her parents about Santa Claus.

So, in the beginning, THERE ARE NO people worshipping abstract ideals because the very idea is absurd to them! They simply cannot conceive of the concept.

But children grow up and ... start realizing things. Like that every time that Santa comes in to bring presents, daddy is conspicioulsy absent.

And finally one day, they stop believing in Santa.

So one day, mortals discover that they do not need the gods to get a slice of that divine mojo.

Like some time ago, people believed that the rest of the universe revolves around the earth. Because, from our point of view, it certainly looks like that.

Ancient greek astronomers figured out the movements of the moon and the visible planets. They just had needlessly complicated charts because they had it the wrong way around. The results were right, the idea about how it worked not.

Ancient believers: See that divine magic exist. See it coming from the gods. Conclusion: Magic comes from gods.

Only much later someone wonders if gods really just aren't just middlemen. Why would they limit themselves to certain portfolios?

People were always believing in something. They just also believed that they needed the gods for it to amount to anything.

So someone believing in Justice also believed, that you need to worship the appropriate god.

Until someone figured out that he can swim without someone holding him afloat, so to speak...

But before that, there simply WERE NO clerics of abstract philosophical concepts.

And even then, when someone figured it out before... maybe he just didn't bother to make anything of it? So much easier to just pray to a god then to go through all the trouble to steal that power...

The ancient romans, heck, even the greeks knew about the power of steam. They just didn't bother researching the concept. Sailships worked fine, slaves were plentiful, why bother?

It usually takes a driven soul to really push the envelope in anything. Since such driven individuals are usually also quite ruthless when it comes to pursuing their obsession, they also qualify for the Evil descriptor.

Ur-Priests aren't evil because they eat babies (although they could do that too), they are evil because they are so ruthless in their pursuit of power that they don't care about the consequences of their actions.

Namely: Threatening the Status Quo.

Think about it. Gods rule, mortals obey. In turn, they are given a slice of power. Gods of incompatible philosophies squabble or outright fight with one another, but as long as overall balance is maitained, life goes on as usual.

Ur-Priest tip the scales into a direction no god likes. That makes society unstable and causes unrest, and thus suffering. The Ur-Priests don't care about that. To them, it's the gods fault. Everybodies but their own. That's what makes them evil.

Lycar

He has a point. Just because something is possible, doesn't mean peope know it is possible, not outright anyway. Before Sertrous, no mortal being was aware that worshiping a cause alone would grant spells. The gods themselves kept this knowledge secret.

An interesting thing to consider, also, is that Ur-Priests are evil because what they do they do out of pure spite. In Forgotten Realms, where (it seens) you just cannot be a cleric of a cause, they fit well, very well in fact, but in Greyhawk, where you can be a cleric of a cause and have divine power without having to deal with the dogma of a god, what they do, they do out of spite (see Caira Xasten). They do for the sake of stealing the gods, even if, in the long run, what they do is as important or relevant as a zit in the rear end of an ant.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-15, 11:42 PM
So what! It doesn't matter if it's common knowledge. The fact that big Red Dragons that breathe fire are immune to fire isn't common knowledge in the D&D world.

It doesn't matter if Fighters know that Clerics can get kickass power from from belief doesn't matter.

The only things that matter are:

a) People already believed in things before a Demon told them they were allowed to.
b) People already got power from that belief before a Demon told them they were allowed to.

So someone saying that you can do something that you can already do changes nothing.

I was going to respond to this but Lycar has much more eloquently then I could, and better put too.

As for why the Church (to represent the multitude of churchs) would even CARE about one piddling Ur-priest...insult. This likely borders on bringing RL religion into this but I'll try to keep it out. If you aren't already, picture yourself as a religious fanatic. Now, one day, somebody tells you about a group of people who steal power from the gods. At first you'd likely think 'Well good riddance, would like to see him/her/it try it to MY god!' and go about your business.

Time passes and eventually somebody tells ya a big secret. There was a guy in town bragging about how he didn't NEED a cause or a god to use his divine magic, he just stole from EVERY god no matter how big or small. Would you just shrug it off or would get yourself ready and do something about the bastard (Either to get him to stop doing it or, barring that, kill him for the insult to your god). You tell your high cleric and he agrees, sends some acolytes to talk to/deal with him..next day they are discovered dead. Well..now it's not just an insult, he killed brethern!

I'm not gonna keep going but it escalates from there.

Salvonus
2008-11-16, 05:41 AM
I know it's dangerous to jump in this late in the game, but maybe some "new blood" will cool down things a bit. Yeesh, the :smallfurious: and :smallmad: is just :smallconfused:. It's just a game. :smallwink:

The whole argument about the source of Clerics of a Cause seems sorta silly, really. Every homebrew world is going to have a different view on the whole deal, so I don't really see the point about arguing so ferociously over the "orthodoxy" of something printed in a splatbook. Then again, I tend to avoid the default fluff for 3.5, so maybe that's why I just don't get the importance of it all. In your world/your DM's world, Clerics of a Cause work however you want, end of story. The only "right" way is the one that's the most fun and fits best with the world you've got.

This isn't even a Rules As Written argument... It's just a Fluff As Written argument. I'm not sure who said a while back that D&D is a toolkit, but that person is dead right - it's a ruleset with some suggested fluff, and that absolutely should be adapted to an individual campaign world. :smallsmile: I can sort of see arguing over the rules, but arguing over the fluff is just silly - you use whatever you want, of course! :smallbiggrin:

As for Ur-Priests being viciously singled out, that does seem a bit unfair on the (completely hypothetical, remember?) DM's part. They certainly do have enemies if they were ever discovered, but how on earth do they know the character is an Ur-Priest? The fluff (changeable, of course) of the class clearly states that they're pretty stealth about the whole thing. Unless they're walking up to every cleric they see and shouting out "im in ur base stealin ur spells" [ooh, notice the clever use of "ur"], it strikes me as pretty arbitrary that they're going to be always caught in the act. I thought Pun-Pun (and the aptly-named Omniscifer) were the only omniscient blokes in D&D. :smalltongue:

I think one of the problems with the focus on never sending CR-inappropriate encounters is the thought that every battle must strictly follow RAW. Ideally, shouldn't the rules be more of a guideline? Sure, by RAW, the Astral Deva can zoom around curbstomping everyone, but, really, that's only one way of playing the game. I don't claim to know all, but it seems to me that it's far more likely in most games that the Astral Deva and the PCs will travel at the Speed of Plot. I think it's good to see a few "unwinnable" or "VERY challenging" encounters from time to time, but that doesn't mean that they always equal TPK just 'cause the RAW would make it difficult to run away.

Also, what's with all the talk of outsiders flying around smiting PCs? That seems pretty campaign-specific, since I don't think I've ever noticed a Church that has a bunch of angels/demons running around killing things. Additionally, this whole Scry-and-Slay idea is just poor storytelling - why on earth would any game have that? I think we're straying just a bit into the realm of the theoretical here. If it's a jerk DM, they're going to screw you ANYWAY. Doesn't matter if you're an Ur-Priest or if you're Joe the Commoner.

I'm inclined to agree, though, that a Church isn't going to be silly enough to always send parcel-sized groups. That's the problem with making EVERY encounter adhere to the CR system - it breaks immersion in the world. As long as you make escape/surrender/creative victory an option, having those 20 Paladins can actually make a great story. Haven't Half-Elf Bard Diplomancers with Soothing Voice taught us that not every encounter must end in death? :smallsmile: Of course, I'm assuming RP-centric campaigns here - a dungeon crawl doesn't have much immersion to break, so CR-parcel your encounters as you wish.

The thing is, both sides have good points here, it's just getting lost in this strange argument. I'm not even sure you guys are actually totally in disagreement... There seems to be a healthy dose of misinterpretation and misreading here. Heck, even I'm not sure I understand the dispute here.


In an attempt to derail the head-against-wall-banging conversation to something a bit more creative, what do you guys think of Adaptation of the Ur-Priest? Let's assume, for a moment, that Clerics of a Cause ('cause that idea feels a bit silly, although I'm not trying to start an argument here :smalltongue:) are not part of the campaign setting - the Ur-Priest is a genuine option, not just a "cheesy" alternative to a Cleric of a Cause.

I think the Adaptation has a few interesting ideas, honestly, and this goes with the whole toolkit idea. I could see Ur-Priest functioning almost like a Cleric version of the Blighter, actually. The Cleric offends their deity and loses their divine abilities, but, driven by grief and a mad sense that they are true dedicates of their deity, they begin to siphon off the power granted by the deity to its true clerics. In this sense, the Ur-Priest is almost to the Cleric as the Blackguard is to the Paladin. Personally, I'd even waive the alignment restriction for this - I could totally see a Good character (heroes are fallible, remember :smallwink:) going down this path, although they'd probably be shifting down the Chaotic axis a bit. Scratch the bit about "stealing" power, and just explain it as the Ur-Priest grabbing bits of lingering divine energy and forming that into spells. Alternatively, the Good-aligned Ur-Priests might deign to "steal" only from Evil deities.

As long as you explain how exactly the "stealing"/"siphoning" works, I really don't see why the (adapted) Ur-Priest of a dead deity would be evil. If, as I mentioned, they're merely grabbing residual energies together, that's not really evil at all. If they can target their "theft" towards a breadth of evil deities, that's arguably even a Chaotic Good act. In a way, the alignment restrictions of the Warlock (any Chaotic or Evil) make a great deal of sense for an (adapted) Ur-Priest.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 06:10 AM
Point is, in D&D world- worshipping something is not on its own enough to grant you power- number of worshippers of a greater deity number in the tens of thousands plus, yet only a small proportion of these are clerics.

Sertrous's words were: "Why serve your lord when his playthings can gain the same strength of power through their own will?"

it went- Sertrous tells angel- angel tells people- a bunch of priests "puzzle over Sertrous's words and make an incredible discovery"- it proliferates.

Today, few question that fact that a priest need not worship a god to work divine magic- he needs only faith in an idea. Yet what of the source of this discovery? Who was the first to draw on divinity without the guideance of a god? Who knows the truth of the first heretic, and of the serpent who exposed a secret no god wished revealed?
- From the Demonomicon of Iggwilv

You certainly don't have to use it in your own D&D world, but it is a bit of new D&D history. and it doesn't really affect choices available to players, unless you are playing in the ancient days, many thousands of years before the Greyhawk present.

Adjusting classes is perfectly fine, if you want an ur-priest who as more a counterpart to the Spellthief- a "powerthief"

MartinHarper
2008-11-16, 08:06 AM
Let's look at what's being said:
Ur Priests are too powerful! They get ninth level spells before anyone else!
Well, that's fine because you can just send bull**** platoons of paladins to curbstomp them because they steal from the gods!

I think it's more like: "Well, that's fine because they need to spend resources on permanent Disguise Self and permanent Undetectable Alignment and suchlike, because they steal from the gods."

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 09:03 AM
if you're going to do "All The World Will Be Your Enemy" give them plenty of opportunity to go undercover, and make it so the hunters will call it off if they can't find them. And maybe allied factions- I get the impression the Athar wouldn't be averse to a little Ur-priest activity.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 02:32 PM
Well, since I'm addressing like 5 posts, this will be vague, but oh well.

1) As regards Stupid Cause Fluff (SCF): Clearly people believed in causes before some demon told them they could. That you would argue that years went by with not a single person believing in a cause is beyond silly.

2) Caring about the Ur-Priest. I would not care. Any church would not care. This is your problem. You keep assuming some monolithic Church that controls everything and so Ur-Priests actually are the only thing they have to spend time on. But that's totally wrong.

All the Clerics are dealing with each other constantly, they don't have time to concern themselves with one guy who's probably a crackpot or a Cause Cleric anyway. If he shows up at their doorstep to breach, they might tell him to go away, they sure as hell aren't going to attack him.

3) Ur-Priests are seriously not a Threat to the established order. I can't emphasize that enough. Ur-Priests need Gods. They don't want other people to stop worshipping Gods. They want everyone else to worship Gods forever while they benefit. Ur-Priests don't breach against Gods. They just don't preach for them.

4) Completely negating the rules for Power of Plot:

I know I personally would be a lot more upset if something went like this:

DM: Make a spot check. okay you fail. Keep making Spot checks every round.
Player: Two hours later: natural 20, sweet, that's 38.
DM: You realize something invisible is around.
Player: I cast See Invis.
DM: You see an Astral Deva that has been following you for the last 2 hours. Roll init.
Player: No way we can beat an Astral Deva! I run 60ft this way.
Player 2: I run 120ft that way.
DM: The Astral Deva flies 60ft that way, and then doesn't take a standard action.

1 hour later: DM: Despite the fact that the Astral Deva's move actions are as fast as your run actions, you have managed to escape. Also, the Astral Deva never took a standard action even though it was sent here to kill you. But it would have killed the entire party if it attacked even once, so I had to Power of Plot it.

That seems about a thousand times worse then just not sending an Astral Deva after a party that will be TPKed.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 02:39 PM
like I said "believing in it" isn't the same is "drawing divine power from it" Clerics have a strength of belief much greater than lay worshippers. And this may have come from witnessing the gods in action-

if the gods predate the occurence of mortal life (aside from entities which were decidedly unfond of the gods, like aboleths) then clerics may have come when the gods first starting sending celestials to the material plane and encouraging belief, faith, and in general making themselves seem very important.

Causes don't do that- you'll never see a "deva of justice" or "solar of The Sun" they are not intelligent entities, with planar domains, so why would people worship them, unless they knew there was something to gain from it?

In a world with mighty outsiders that supply divine power to followers, maybe until quite late, it just didn't occur to people in D&D verse that there was anything else to draw divine power from?

EDIT:
To sum up- in a world where the gods are real and interfering, what would be the attraction of worshipping, trying to draw divine power from, things you do not know for certain are "real"?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 02:59 PM
like I said "believing in it" isn't the same is "drawing divine power from it" Clerics have a strength of belief much greater than lay worshippers. And this may have come from witnessing the gods in action-

if the gods predate the occurence of mortal life (aside from entities which were decidedly unfond of the gods, like aboleths) then clerics may have come when the gods first starting sending celestials to the material plane and encouraging belief, faith, and in general making themselves seem very important.

Causes don't do that- you'll never see a "deva of justice" or "solar of The Sun" they are not intelligent entities, with planar domains, so why would people worship them, unless they knew there was something to gain from it?

In a world with mighty outsiders that supply divine power to followers, maybe until quite late, it just didn't occur to people in D&D verse that there was anything else to draw divine power from?

EDIT:
To sum up- in a world where the gods are real and interfering, what would be the attraction of worshipping, trying to draw divine power from, things you do not know for certain are "real"?

But once again. It does not require worshipping a cause. It's believing a cause that does it.

You would have to seriously claim that not a single person in the entire world believed in any of the following:

Their own intrinsic self worth.
Justice.
The Power of Death.
Time.

Anything else ever.

That's just silly. Lots of people would believe in those strongly enough to gain power. Being a Cause Cleric is not a conscious choice. It's just your natural belief in something gives you power.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 03:02 PM
see Deities and Demigods- a force only one person devotes themselves to, is not strong enough to grant magical power. There is quite a bit on "Forces and philosophies"

Natural belief is one thing- but its a group thing- needs lots of people to devote themselves to "justice" as a abstract, before divine spells start to appear. its not just "belief" but devotion.

EDIT; As I said- clerics are rare- 2% of the population? something like that- going by averages for things like cities. If the gods have been snapping them up, those with strength of belief who haven't joined a church aren't going to make up much of population.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 03:12 PM
see Deities and Demigods- a force only one person devotes themselves to, is not strong enough to grant magical power. There is quite a bit on "Forces and philosophies"

Natural belief is one thing- but its a group thing- needs lots of people to devote themselves to "justice" as a abstract, before divine spells start to appear. its not just "belief" but devotion.

EDIT; As I said- clerics are rare- 2% of the population? something like that- going by averages for things like cities. If the gods have been snapping them up, those with strength of belief who haven't joined a church aren't going to make up much of population.

But you aren't a Cleric because you are Cleric, and then the Gods snap you up you are a Cleric because some force gives you powers.

Anyone with a belief can be a Cleric, and the Gods can give powers to anyone.

If 100% of the population of city X believes in Justice then anyone anywhere in the entire world can be a Cleric of Justice if they believe enough.

Intrinsic Self worth is something everyone believes in, so if a single person defines themselves based on it, they get Cleric powers automatically.

Time? Don't even get me started on Time.

Zeful
2008-11-16, 03:15 PM
3) Ur-Priests are seriously not a Threat to the established order. I can't emphasize that enough. Ur-Priests need Gods. They don't want other people to stop worshipping Gods. They want everyone else to worship Gods forever while they benefit. Ur-Priests don't breach against Gods. They just don't preach for them.
You assume the churches of various deities slug it out in a blood-war style battle. They don't, it's a more passive aggressive relationship. They simply insult each other in public. Binders aren't a threat to the established order and they are persecuted toward extinction, simply because they draw power from entities beyond the God's control. If that happens to binders, what happens to a group that is known to steal power from the gods?


4) Completely negating the rules for Power of Plot:

I know I personally would be a lot more upset if something went like this:

DM: Make a spot check. okay you fail. Keep making Spot checks every round.
Player: Two hours later: natural 20, sweet, that's 38.
DM: You realize something invisible is around.
Player: I cast See Invis.
DM: You see an Astral Deva that has been following you for the last 2 hours. Roll init.
Player: No way we can beat an Astral Deva! I run 60ft this way.
Player 2: I run 120ft that way.
DM: The Astral Deva flies 60ft that way, and then doesn't take a standard action.

1 hour later: DM: Despite the fact that the Astral Deva's move actions are as fast as your run actions, you have managed to escape. Also, the Astral Deva never took a standard action even though it was sent here to kill you. But it would have killed the entire party if it attacked even once, so I had to Power of Plot it.

That seems about a thousand times worse then just not sending an Astral Deva after a party that will be TPKed.

That is an idiot DM. The situation should be more like.

DM: Okay every one, roll spot.
Fighter: 6
Rogue: 18
Ur-priest: 22
Wizard: 11
DM: Okay. *insert scenery here*
Ten minutes pass
DM: Can I get another spot check?
Fighter: Ugh, nat 1.
Rogue: 13
Ur-priest: Woot! Nat 20 for 35!
Wizard: 9
DM: You thought you saw a shimmer in the air, as though that area was hotter than the rest.
Wizard: That sounds like an invisible creature, I'll cast see invisible. What's different?
DM: You see a Astral Deva, flying along in the air, going east.
Rogue: I was hoping for a fight.
Ur-priest: What's a Astral Deva doing on the Material plane?
DM: You guess that it was summoned by the clergy of a church to hunt down a powerful heretic.
Ur-priest: I... see.
Three hours later:
DM:Can I get a spot check?
Fighter: 18
Rogue: 28
Ur-priest: 15
Wizard: 23
DM: Okay *more scenery* oh and the wizard takes 15 damage from a bolt clipping his face. Bandits seem to materialize from the trees. Roll initiative.

Is the Deva following them, or was it a paranoia play?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 03:19 PM
1) Yes, people always get Natural 20s on the second roll.

2) So there is no Astral Deva hunting them at all, and therefore their is no Astral Deva, and therefore their actual Challenges are all within CR range and don't consist of them running from people that could kill them with a single standard action.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 03:21 PM
"self worth" is individual- just another way of saying " I believe in me" Does everyone else believe enough in you personally?

See favored souls- to them it comes naturally, but clerics have to study, in the Favored Soul description.

People believe in gravity- does that mean there are clerics of Gravity? Not exactly the sort of thing people devote themselves to en-masse. Justice, thats more likely. But again the idea of "drawing divine power" has to come from somewhere.

when the gods identify themselves with most of the things people are likely to devote themselves to, the eyes of would-be clerics will be drawn to the gods.

Sure, clerics of a cause exist. But did they always? Elder Evils answer is no. However, its a very late source.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 03:28 PM
point is- power has to be drawn. Unless, of course, prospective clerics just wake up with it. if you're a cleric of a god, you must follow a code of conduct laid out by the god. Prayer- you petition the deity for spells and you get them at the end of your prayer.

when its not a god you are petitioning, How To Do It, while simple, might not have been knowledge mortals have had forever, if you take Deities and Demigods, and Elder Evils, at face value.

the Elder Evils entry does say "the secret" spread thousands of years ago. A truly ancient era in D&D context.

Zeful
2008-11-16, 03:35 PM
2) So there is no Astral Deva hunting them at all, and therefore their is no Astral Deva, and therefore their actual Challenges are all within CR range and don't consist of them running from people that could kill them with a single standard action.

If there's an Astral Deva hunting them, which may or may not be true there's enough subtext that he Ur-priest would act like a "normal" cleric and not use spells from 4+ domains over two or three days that could cause Schrodinger's Deva to insta-gib him with a single attack.

I've said it before: Stupidity is it's own punishment. Acting stupid in-game increases your odds of dieing.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 03:41 PM
or, make celestial agent of chastisment, not usually executioners- a bellowed "Repent!" a moderate pounding, and celestial leaving, with warning that unless Ur-priest changes ways, this may happen again. A little cheesy, but preferable to killing off the character.

I see the world of D&D as something of a sandbox- go to wrong places and you will get mushed.

Flickerdart
2008-11-16, 03:42 PM
People believe in gravity- does that mean there are clerics of Gravity? Not exactly the sort of thing people devote themselves to en-masse.
You can't "believe" in scientific fact. It exists. Similarly, gods don't get power from belief - everyone knows they exist in the D&D cosmology - but from worship. You can't worship an equation.

I wonder. If enough people worship a cause...can it manifest into a deity?

Zeful
2008-11-16, 03:45 PM
You can't "believe" in scientific fact. It exists. Similarly, gods don't get power from belief - everyone knows they exist in the D&D cosmology - but from worship. You can't worship an equation.

I wonder. If enough people worship a cause...can it manifest into a deity?

There are no scientific facts, just uncontested theories.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 03:49 PM
The Dark one in OOTS- though more an individual. Mortals worshipped after death generally become gods if its enough people.

Strictly, the term in Deities and Demigods is "devotion" rather than worship. You are effectively making you whole life over for the sake of "the cause" while still respecting deities, generally (but not always)

Non-divine, but nearly so, entities- dead gods, quasi-deity dragons (normally quasi-deities don't qualify) demons, devils, outer planes (Planar handbook)

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:00 PM
under "Forces and Philosophies" in Deities and Demigods- it recommends coming up with both some sort of code, and a reason for a lot of people to be devoted to this abstract.

EDIT: and when player says "thing worshipped- Me" and "code- Whatever's good for me personally" DM is within their rights to say- Sorry, not enough people A: know you exist and B: believe you are a Thing to Devote Lives to.

Flickerdart
2008-11-16, 04:02 PM
There are no scientific facts, just uncontested theories.
Uh...huh. Right then.

I now want to make a Cleric of Evolution. All the funnier because D&D has no discernible food chain or survival of the fittest.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:34 PM
1) If there is a Deva flying around that saw him and didn't say anything or do anything, then clearly it's not hunting him.

This is still completely different from what I have been saying over and over, in that actually fighting anything of overpowering CR or having it actually hunting you is going to involve you getting killed. I specifically addressed that comment at the person who said that Power of Plot should be used to make it so that PCs could fight and run away from something overpowering. I showed how stupid that is because a) Astral Deva is way faster, just like most high CR, b) Astral Deva can kill the entire party in a single standard action, like overpowering CR.

2) Self worth is something everyone has, and if defines themselves based on it and believes in it as the primary motivating force in the cosmos they get divine power, including the Pride Domain for example. It doesn't matter if other people believe in you, it matters if they believe in themselves.

Gods and DemiGods can recommend coming up with a code and a bunch of other crap that has nothing to do with anything. But CoC need only one thing, and that is a defining ethos. That's it.

Could there be Clerics of Gravity? Sure. I'm sure they'd have the weight Domain, and maybe something else to show their control over it in the other direction which would have Airwalk/Fly/whatever.

3) Thousands of years ago is not a long time ago in D&D terms. It's two to three generations. And that's not counting the five hundred ways to become immortal. I've had characters that were that old when the campaign started.

4) Clerics do not need to study anything, they need to believe and devote themselves to something, which lots of people have done all through time. Favored Souls are just people picked to have powers, and they can hate the God giving them powers for all it matters.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:36 PM
in Sourcebooks- Complete Divine, Deities and Demigods- we are told there is more to it than just "believing"

two to three generations- of what? Even Dragons become infertile around 800, and is thousands- plural- might be a lot of thousands.

EDIT: So, when DM asks- what Is your cause- you say "I draw power from the Self-worth of everybody." Hmm.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-16, 04:45 PM
Uh...huh. Right then.

I now want to make a Cleric of Evolution. All the funnier because D&D has no discernible food chain or survival of the fittest.

Polymorph any object has some info on what is the same class, order, etc.

So that sounds cool.

If you do though: that makes most humaniof races thew same species (otherwise humans couldn't mate and have fertilie children).

Dragons are an abomination here as they aren't same species but mate with everything.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:51 PM
in Sourcebooks- Complete Divine, Deities and Demigods- we are told there is more to it than just "believing"

No we aren't.


two to three generations- of what? Even Dragons become infertile around 800, and is thousands- plural- might be a lot of thousands.

1) No dragons do not become infertile after 800 years. And I am talking about Elves that live to 1000+ years. Or Dwarves that live 500+ Years. Or the four hundred thousand immortal people running around.


EDIT: So, when DM asks- what Is your cause- you say "I draw power from the Self-worth of everybody." Hmm.

No, I say, "My cause is advance self reliance and worth." If the DM asks me the source of my power I would say, "I draw power from belief in ones on self worth."

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:52 PM
Polymorph any object has some info on what is the same class, order, etc.

No it doesn't. If it had such rules something would make sense, but it doesn't actually have any rules about how anything is related to anything else.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 04:53 PM
not usually that many in most D&D settings. Elves are very old when 500, and Draconomicon states clearly what age dragons become infertile.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 04:58 PM
not usually that many in most D&D settings. Elves are very old when 500, and Draconomicon states clearly what age dragons become infertile.

Draconomicon is superseded because it's 3.0.

There are tons of elves in every D&D setting.

What do you do sit around all day reading D&D fluff. How come you don't read the parts that contradict each other and realize you are wasting your time.

Heck you apparently own both G&G and Complete Divine, and those two contradict each other (and themselves) every other line.

Flickerdart
2008-11-16, 05:04 PM
No, I say, "My cause is advance self reliance and worth." If the DM asks me the source of my power I would say, "I draw power from belief in ones on self worth."
Cleric of the ego. The only way to justify a CoD-zilla build.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:08 PM
Deities and Demigods p9:

"Generally, the power of a philosophy comes from the belief that mortals invest in it. A philosophy that only one prson believes in is not strong enough to bestow magical power on that person. A force, on the other hand, can have power apart from the belief in it or even apart from the existence of mortals."

Complete Divine p5;

"If your D&D character is devoted to some higher authority or cause- often but not always a god- he can draw a measure of power from that connection. Such power comes with a price- by accepting the power of divine magic, he generally agrees to abide by a set of principles. He's voluntarily limiting his behaviour in exchange for power."

"A character with a connection to divine magic isn't just a collection of combat statistics wandering aimlessly from encounter to encounter. From the beginning of his first adventure, he devotes himself to something greater, adheres to standards of conduct (whether codified or not), and may even have mannerisms and speech patterns demonstrating that allegiance"

"While divine magic is about belief, it centers on believing in the worth of a deity, not merely believing in the existence of a deity"

"Believing in a deity's existence isn't enough to earn divine power- a character has to believe that the deity is worth following, and devote himself to that cause"

Complete divine p7: Favored soul
"she is able to perform the same tasks as her fellow divine spellcasters but with virtually no study: to her it comes naturally."

EDIT: Draconomicon is 3.5.

Not that many Immortals on the material plane.

Zeful
2008-11-16, 05:09 PM
1) If there is a Deva flying around that saw him and didn't say anything or do anything, then clearly it's not hunting him.

This is still completely different from what I have been saying over and over, in that actually fighting anything of overpowering CR or having it actually hunting you is going to involve you getting killed. I specifically addressed that comment at the person who said that Power of Plot should be used to make it so that PCs could fight and run away from something overpowering. I showed how stupid that is because a) Astral Deva is way faster, just like most high CR, b) Astral Deva can kill the entire party in a single standard action, like overpowering CR.

The Deva gave the appearance of non-pursuit. That does not mean it wasn't pursuing the Team. With a +1 spot dc every ten feet said deva is from the party it could easily pull a 40ish hide check and be undetectable by the party. The Deva is smart enough (18 int, that's as smart as the smartest human in the real world) to know it's been spotted and provide the appearance of non-pursuit, simply to turn back and reacquire the target.

And yes at low levels it pretty much impossible to run. But then the only reason an overpowering monster should be attacking you is because you messed up.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:21 PM
Cleric of the ego. The only way to justify a CoD-zilla build.

No, I'm talking about a Cleric with the Pride domain. Not planning and undeath.


The Deva gave the appearance of non-pursuit. That does not mean it wasn't pursuing the Team. With a +1 spot dc every ten feet said deva is from the party it could easily pull a 40ish hide check and be undetectable by the party. The Deva is smart enough (18 int, that's as smart as the smartest human in the real world) to know it's been spotted and provide the appearance of non-pursuit, simply to turn back and reacquire the target.

And yes at low levels it pretty much impossible to run. But then the only reason an overpowering monster should be attacking you is because you messed up.

1) That's great, but it's clearly not doing anything, so no one cares. It can watch me all day and I don't give a crap. Because if it's after me, it would just kill me, and if it's not after me, then it doesn't matter.

2) See again. Try to pay attention to what the people I am arguing against have said. I said that it is bad DMing to send overpowering forces against the PCs based on class choice, or based on the class having enemies. You can't just assume that every Ur-Priest everywhere killed a Solar's grandnephew for fun and then use that as an argument for why they are all being hunted by overpowering forces. They didn't do anything stupid, so the DM has no right to TPK them just because of a class choice.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:23 PM
Stealing power from the gods shows a certain lack of respect for very very powerful entities. Though its possible the gods don't notice the power stolen, anyone who has been robbed will feel unfriendly toward the thief who robbed them.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 05:30 PM
A little off topic but it's been bugging me:

The longest generations I can think of are the Illithid and Aboleth life cycles, outsiders don't really count as they aren't actually biologically alive in the traditional sense and Immortal characters that make themselves such aren't a functioning race and thus the word "Generation" can't be applied.

Since the Illithid are a parasytic race that seem to base their reproduction around a "queen" central brain, a generation for them can be millenia between founding of new cities and thus new central brains.

For Aboleth, there isn't any upper limit on "generations" on a specis of immortal psychic fish overlords.... propably the best you can do is measure in terms of ice ages. This isn't about how long it takes them to be asexually mature, nor for when the offspring is functionally independant but when the Aboleth society at large considers them adults, breaking into that cliche must take some doing.

I know the actual point was to do with oral history versus first hand account but for a system where magic is real and there's a bajillion immortals running about you'll never get away from the primary source.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:32 PM
"Generally, the power of a philosophy comes from the belief that mortals invest in it. A philosophy that only one prson believes in is not strong enough to bestow magical power on that person. A force, on the other hand, can have power apart from the belief in it or even apart from the existence of mortals."

Right, which is why you believe in things that lots of people believe in. This is exactly what I said:

They need to believe in something and devote themselves to spreading or advancing it. They need to define themselves in terms of it. At no point does that involve study.


"If your D&D character is devoted to some higher authority or cause- often but not always a god- he can draw a measure of power from that connection. Such power comes with a price- by accepting the power of divine magic, he generally agrees to abide by a set of principles. He's voluntarily limiting his behaviour in exchange for power."

This is just WotC being dumb. You aren't limiting behavior by following your creed, you are following your creed. If you believe something is right, you do it, period. If you believe something is against everything you stand for, you wouldn't have done it anyway, whether or not your philosphy or god gives you powers.

A Fighter who believes the same thing as a Cleric is going to take the exact same actions everytime, because he doesn't want to do something against his own ethos.


"A character with a connection to divine magic isn't just a collection of combat statistics wandering aimlessly from encounter to encounter. From the beginning of his first adventure, he devotes himself to something greater, adheres to standards of conduct (whether codified or not), and may even have mannerisms and speech patterns demonstrating that allegiance"

1) See not codified at all.

2) Yes, Clerics of Pride are not Modest. Clerics of Fire don't run around putting out fires. Clerics of the Frozen North don't try to support global warming.

The point is that at no point does, "Advancing your goals" in any way constitute a limit on your actions, because the thing that defines you is advancing those goals.


"she is able to perform the same tasks as her fellow divine spellcasters but with virtually no study: to her it comes naturally."

With virtually no study means nothing, because Clerics do it with absolutely no study, so tough freaking luck.


EDIT: Draconomicon is 3.5.

Not that many Immortals on the material plane.

1) Draconomicon is 3.0, and it's contradicted by Races of the Dragon, The Monster Manual, and Dragon Magic.

2) Not Outsiders. Immortals. IE Elans/Warfoged/Eldritch Disciples/Epic Spellcasters/ect.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:35 PM
Lord of Madness- ordinary Mind flayers live about 135 years from ceremorphosis, are like children at start and take 20 years to "grow up" and spawn two or three times in their lifespan.

Aboleths take 10 years to mature and on average reproduce every 5 years.

so, in "reproductive generations" the time on average between birth and the next generation born, it isn't very much.

Draken
2008-11-16, 05:36 PM
No it doesn't. If it had such rules something would make sense, but it doesn't actually have any rules about how anything is related to anything else.

Creature kinds (Humanoid, Dragon, Animal, Vermin, Aberration, etc) indicate sets of creatures with mostly similar anatomy (aberrations being the exception, because each kind of aberration is uniquely and unnaturaly weird).

---------

As stated before. Draconomicon is, in fact, 3.5 ( I have it open now and all of entries use 3.5 terms, instead of 3.0, like DR X/magic instead of X/+1). And even if it were 3.0, fluff doesn't really tend to get updated. You know, it is fluff, the closest it comes to being a rule is saying that a 800 year old dragon (Very old, going to Venerable) is unable to reproduce. Any sensible person would be aware that a creature considered venerable cannot reproduce anymore.

The same applyes to elves. Know those elves with the white beards and who remember people who look like you but are likely ancestrals you don't even know you had? Yea, no ammount of viagra will help him.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:38 PM
Check date at start of book- after 3.5. first 3 books. And the DR for sample dragons. None of the other books list the time reproduction can begin and end- on subject of physical traits of dragons, it is the 3.5 source.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 05:40 PM
Lord of Madness- ordinary Mind flayers live about 135 years from ceremorphosis, are like children at start and take 20 years to "grow up" and spawn two or three times in their lifespan.

Aboleths take 10 years to mature and on average reproduce every 5 years.

so, in "reproductive generations" the time on average between birth and the next generation born, it isn't very much.

Yes, however you've now added a new word, we've gone from "generation" which has distict cultural and developmental connertations to "reproductive generations". The youngest recorded grandparent in the real world of both genders is 24, which is a year less than we consider a single human generation to be....

Also, an illithid is one stage of "The Illithid" life cycle which nessecitates a brainpool for the tadpoles.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:42 PM
more female elves, but yes. Races of The Wild- elves take 25 years to grow up, but hardly ever marry before 100.

Elans can't reproduce normal way- its a magical transformation.

Generation- from birth to birthing the next generation, average time.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:44 PM
Creature kinds (Humanoid, Dragon, Animal, Vermin, Aberration, etc) indicate sets of creatures with mostly similar anatomy (aberrations being the exception, because each kind of aberration is uniquely and unnaturaly weird).

Which has nothing to do with whether or not PoA provides definitions of the terms Class/Order.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:45 PM
more female elves, but yes. Races of The Wild- elves take 25 years to grow up, but hardly ever marry before 100.

Elans can't reproduce normal way- its a magical transformation.

Generation- from birth to birthing the next generation, average time.

Fine, generation is the wrong term. It's two ****ing life spans. Happy. There are still thousands of people alive who where alive thousands of years ago. So thousands of years is not a long time in D&D.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:49 PM
Thousands? Epic anything are few and far between in anything but Faerun. And even Faerun's oldest major NPCs are mostly undead.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-16, 05:50 PM
Seeing as Pelor steals his divine powers; an Ur-Priest should be able to freely steal Pelor's.

2 wrongs make a right if you use math. :smallbiggrin:

-1 x -1 =+1.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 05:50 PM
Thousands? Epic anything are few and far between in anything but Faerun. And even Faerun's oldest major NPCs are mostly undead.

All those outsiders who have regular dealings with FR should be counted too, that'll probably bring the numbers up. Plus all those dragons, enough to keep ten+ seperate specis genetically viable which is quite a few, still lots even if you don't think Dragons suffered from the standard effects of inbreeding. Plus aboleths. And all the undead count if all you're after is first hand accounts.

Draken
2008-11-16, 05:52 PM
Considering that your average human in D&D will live 110 years, tops, and humans are the dominant species in most D&D worlds (somehow), yes, 1000 years is a lot of time. A lot of stuff happens in 1000 years.

Even in a world where wizards can turn into liches to live forever, or become demigods, or whatever else. The number of people who actually achieve that is like a drop of wate rin the ocean.

No. Immortal creatures do not count towards the big picture.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 05:54 PM
Thousands? Epic anything are few and far between in anything but Faerun. And even Faerun's oldest major NPCs are mostly undead.

1) Faerun has thousands, and I'm not talking about Faerun.

2) I'm assuming that people are relatively intelligent, and since any 21st level full caster can become immortal, they all are.

Not to mention, that's just epics, not counting the thousands of Warforged, Elans, Eldritch Disciples, Liches, Outsiders, ect. And the Dragons who never die of old age, and the DragonWrought Kobolds, and the Illithid Brains and Aboleths. And the fact that when great Grandpa so and so the king of the Saunguins tells all his kids about the before time he's actually talking about 2000 years ago, and when he tells them about what his Grandpa told him it was 4000 years ago.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-16, 05:54 PM
Considering that your average human in D&D will live 110 years, tops, and humans are the dominant species in most D&D worlds (somehow), yes, 1000 years is a lot of time. A lot of stuff happens in 1000 years.

Even in a world where wizards can turn into liches to live forever, or become demigods, or whatever else. The number of people who actually achieve that is like a drop of wate rin the ocean.

No. Immortal creatures do not count towards the big picture.

What about Elans? They live forever and they come from humans so they can be created in a short time (teenagers are when humanscan start adventuring).

mostlyharmful
2008-11-16, 05:56 PM
Considering that your average human in D&D will live 110 years, tops, and humans are the dominant species in most D&D worlds (somehow), yes, 1000 years is a lot of time. A lot of stuff happens in 1000 years.

Even in a world where wizards can turn into liches to live forever, or become demigods, or whatever else. The number of people who actually achieve that is like a drop of wate rin the ocean.

No. Immortal creatures do not count towards the big picture.

They don't have to count for the general picture, even the political or economic ones. But they certainly do for the historical one, there doesn't need to be many of them when you have truth magic available, but their account of the history they lived through is liable to completely revolutionized history. Think how much more we would know about the bronze age if we had actual people we could go and ask.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:56 PM
if I remeber rightly, they are sterile and created by a ritual. One not listed in book, so DM fiat. and the elans themselves are very choosy.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 05:57 PM
And dragons do die of old age, and spells at 21st level to grant immortality are DM fiat. There isn't one in Epic Handbook.

Faerun is very high magic- greyhawk, eberron, etc, aren't so high magic.

Total up list of 21st level casters in faerun that have been mentioned and it won't be much.

Zeful
2008-11-16, 05:59 PM
Seeing as Pelor steals his divine powers; an Ur-Priest should be able to freely steal Pelor's.

2 wrongs make a right if you use math. :smallbiggrin:

-1 x -1 =+1.

It's -1+-1 which does not equal 1

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-16, 06:06 PM
1) Faerun has thousands, and I'm not talking about Faerun.

2) I'm assuming that people are relatively intelligent, and since any 21st level full caster can become immortal, they all are.

Not to mention, that's just epics, not counting the thousands of Warforged, Elans, Eldritch Disciples, Liches, Outsiders, ect. And the Dragons who never die of old age, and the DragonWrought Kobolds, and the Illithid Brains and Aboleths. And the fact that when great Grandpa so and so the king of the Saunguins tells all his kids about the before time he's actually talking about 2000 years ago, and when he tells them about what his Grandpa told him it was 4000 years ago.

1)When you are talking about the number of epic creatures, and Faerun really does have the most, then your taking it into consideration.

2) Immortality is not always a wanted goal. Not a single character I've ever made has wanted to be immortal. A few actual despise the idea of it. As already mentioned Dragons AREN'T immortal and thousands could be anywhere from 1,000 years to 999,999 years. One of which is actually a very high number, even in D&D.

I have to seriously ask though, why do you have so much hate for splatbook fluff? I mean it IS as valid as the primary source fluff so why did you argue before that it's not?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:06 PM
No. It is not DM fiat to use the life seed intelligently. Heck there are non-epic spells that make evil people immortal.

No it's not DM fiat to say that Elans exist and are immortal and so could tell you what happened years ago. That's what it specifically says. We aren't talking about reproduction, we are talking about knowledge. If all important people know what life was like thousands of years ago it isn't a long time.

No, Faerun is not high magic, it's made by idiots who can't forsee the consequences of actions and it makes no sense.

No, the number of Epic spellcasters mentioned in books =/= the number of Epic Spellcasters.

The standard D&D world has several thousand Epic Commoners for godsakes.

The fact is that any level 9 character with even a little bit of curiosity knows everything they would ever want to know about a time 10 thousand years ago, so it's not a long time ago.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 06:08 PM
Gold Dragons, the longest-lived of all, start dying after 4200 years of life- constitution checks, increasing DC every year, to live.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 06:09 PM
Epic handbook- epic beings, even commoners, are placed- they don't exist everywhere.

And where does it Say that Life Seed can grant immortality?

sure, everyone Now knows how to become a Cleric of a Cause, but in that ancient time, not too long after the battles between the Wind Dukes of Aaqa and the Queen of Chaos, maybe no-one knew.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:14 PM
I have to seriously ask though, why do you have so much hate for splatbook fluff? I mean it IS as valid as the primary source fluff so why did you argue before that it's not?

I object to it when it contradicts the PHB and when it makes no logical sense.

It does not say anywhere in the PHB that Clerics are genocidal maniacs on the hunt for anyone with any type of power not granted by a God, except Wizards and Sorcerers for some reason.

So when every damn book comes out and says, "All Clerics everywhere, even the ones of knowledge, or peace and mercy, or secrecy hate this class and regularly launch crusades against it."

That makes all the Clerics I ever played evil bastards completely the opposite of their actual goals.

When it says, by the way, Dragons are all sterile at 800 years, even though there are tons of Dragons that are reported of having kids at 3000 in various other books. That's stupid.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-16, 06:14 PM
It's -1+-1 which does not equal 1

The saying never mentions addition. Only that they are used.

So why not multiply?

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:15 PM
The DMG has stipulations that result in Epic Commoners. Deal with it.

The Epic Handbook doesn't mean anything at all to anyone.

hamishspence
2008-11-16, 06:15 PM
Which books? Male ones can remain fertile later than females.

and 3.5 fluff is different from, say, 2.0.

without the Epic Handbook, you can't have epic spellcasting.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:21 PM
And you don't want Epic Spellcasting. Or Epic characters. Epic is the stupidest thing in D&D, and that's saying something.

And sorry, I was doing it from memory, it's the Fortify Seed not life.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-16, 06:21 PM
No. It is not DM fiat to use the life seed intelligently. Heck there are non-epic spells that make evil people immortal.

When you use an epic spell to become immortal then it DOES become DM fiat. Any epic spell, for that matter even the ones in the book, require DM approval to even be developed.


No it's not DM fiat to say that Elans exist and are immortal and so could tell you what happened years ago. That's what it specifically says. We aren't talking about reproduction, we are talking about knowledge. If all important people know what life was like thousands of years ago it isn't a long time.

Again, it IS DM fiat. Just because Elans are in the EXPH does not mean they are in YOUR specific campaign. And, for that matter, just because they are immortal doesn't mean they HAD to be 'born' a long time ago. Just that they live forever, barring death by horrible violence which seems to claim lots of 'immortal' creatures.


No, Faerun is not high magic, it's made by idiots who can't forsee the consequences of actions and it makes no sense.

Matter of opinion and Faerun is more high fantasy then high magic (again, in my opinion).


No, the number of Epic spellcasters mentioned in books =/= the number of Epic Spellcasters.

True, but then again the number of planes mentioned in books isn't equal to the number of planes. The number of base classes mentioned in books doesn't equal the number of base classes. But people assume so unless told otherwise because that's the sensible thing to do. Things like epic spellcasters usually make a big splash in the Material World when they visit so if you haven't HEARD of the GRAND ARCHMAGE BILL OF THE SEVENTH CONSECUTIVE SUCCESSION FROM HELL WHO LIVES IN THE TOWER BY THE VILLAGE DOWN THE ROAD, then he likely is just a crazy person and not an epic spellcaster. Extreme example.


The standard D&D world has several thousand Epic Commoners for godsakes.

What game are you playing in? For that matter where did you even hear that? It sounds hilarious.

Bago!!!
2008-11-16, 06:24 PM
Oi, a blood bath is this thread? COOL! Fill my glass with the stuff!

Ten thousands years is not a long time? I would beg to differ.

Few dragons actuelly live that long. Why? Becuase there are other dragons trying to kill you, some mortals are trying to hunt you down for your treasure, the kingdom hates all dragons, etc.

Dragons rarely live to 1000.

Elves rarely live that long. 1000 years is a long time not to be overcome with sickness, war, famine and the like. People die, people rarely live to venerable age unless you can afford it and if you can avoid getting killed by those who would take your purse and your diamonds of resurection.

Elans, they die. They can live forever but they rarely do. And they don't just take everyone hey nilly nilly. And even they vary in who they pick because the people who are immensly old in Elan terms usually die, whether because someone turned sour or otherwise.

Sure someone of that level could TRY to find stuff like that. But usually the people that old jelousy keep their secrets or add their own embillishments or totally redefine it however they want to. First person accounts are special but should never be taken serouisly.

10 people see the same event differently.


And if you steal from anyone, then you better hope its someone who will turn the other cheek, cause they will wreak bloody vengance on the poor infidel who tookt heir wallet. I know I would.




If someone stole from my god whom I have dedicated my life and time too, then I would be sorely pissed off and be ready to beat the living day lights out of him. Ur Priests are stealing from a being that isn't a mortal, but is divine being and no diety is going to like someone taking their power, espicialyl when someone else could be using it for their cause. The ur-priests at large are thought as selfish for taking power from deities, or atleast thats how I see it. They use their power for their own purposes, which doesn't improve their reputations. And some ur-priests could do some pretty horrible deeds and the large populace would be condemned for it. Its not too hard to rationalize a clerics hatred for these beings.

And the fluff of the books make perfect sense, otherwise it would make no sense that a fighter couldn't use divine power because he believes in the perffection of himself and his body without losing a fighter level.

monty
2008-11-16, 06:26 PM
True, but then again the number of planes mentioned in books isn't equal to the number of planes. The number of base classes mentioned in books doesn't equal the number of base classes. But people assume so unless told otherwise because that's the sensible thing to do. Things like epic spellcasters usually make a big splash in the Material World when they visit so if you haven't HEARD of the GRAND ARCHMAGE BILL OF THE SEVENTH CONSECUTIVE SUCCESSION FROM HELL WHO LIVES IN THE TOWER BY THE VILLAGE DOWN THE ROAD, then he likely is just a crazy person and not an epic spellcaster. Extreme example.

He must be a crazy person. Everyone knows epic spellcasters all live in their own personal custom demiplanes.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:27 PM
1) The fact that any race is in any book doesn't mean the DM can't say no. By your logic creating any character is DM fiat.

2) So you think that every character that has ever existed anywhere has been named in a book? How do you rationalize that with the fact that their are more Commoners in a Metropolis then there are actual named D&D characters in books?

3) Please pick up a copy of your local DMG and read the demographics of a D&D metropolis.

Bago!!!
2008-11-16, 06:27 PM
This is very true, except when they go and ask the nearby material plane for a cup of sugar. :smallwink:

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:31 PM
1) Anyone capable of casting Planar Binding can find out anything they want to know about anything that any immortal outsider lived through. If they want to find it out, they can very easily.

2) How do you know an Ur-Priest ever stole from your God?

First of all there are hundreds of Gods, maybe thousands to steal from. Secondly, He didn't steal anything. He stole the the light that filtered out your window. You didn't actually lose anything because of it, and neither did your God.

You know what other group of people have done horrible things and should be hunted by all Clerics of Pelor? All Clerics of Wee-Jas. So why aren't Clerics of Pelor attacking Clerics of Wee-Jas on site?

Draken
2008-11-16, 06:34 PM
1) The fact that any race is in any book doesn't mean the DM can't say no. By your logic creating any character is DM fiat.

2) So you think that every character that has ever existed anywhere has been named in a book? How do you rationalize that with the fact that their are more Commoners in a Metropolis then there are actual named D&D characters in books?

3) Please pick up a copy of your local DMG and read the demographics of a D&D metropolis.

Please check your DMG and tell me which is, probably the character level of 99.99% of the people of a metropolis. These people are level 1. The highest level in a material metropolis will hardly be beyond level 12.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-11-16, 06:38 PM
1) The fact that any race is in any book doesn't mean the DM can't say no. By your logic creating any character is DM fiat.

2) So you think that every character that has ever existed anywhere has been named in a book? How do you rationalize that with the fact that their are more Commoners in a Metropolis then there are actual named D&D characters in books?

3) Please pick up a copy of your local DMG and read the demographics of a D&D metropolis.

1) By my logic an entire game is. It's joint story-telling but take a look at most PbP games, the DM will set down guidelines about what's allowable. Step out side those and...well would you look at that! DM Fiat. If you are playing in a custom campaign then a DM does have every right to say 'this race doesn't exist in my world' just like he does with feats, classes, and what not.

2)I think all IMPORTANT characters that are not PCs or NPCs are named in a book if you are using material from there.

3)I don't own a DMG but I have looked at that section. From what I remember it mentions nothing about commoners over 21 being prolific there.

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:38 PM
Sorry, Planar Metropolis:

Commoners have levels of 4d4+12 levels. Which means that average level is 22.

Flickerdart
2008-11-16, 06:40 PM
The Ur-priest becomes a lot more interesting if you think of them not as thieves, but as pirates, warezing divine power from the gods. That hour of concentration they do? They're downloading Full.Version.SUN.DOMAIN.cracked.rar and Cleric_Spells_Full_Discography.iso

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 06:41 PM
{Scrubbed}