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View Full Version : What's the point of Improved Evasion?



Thrawn183
2008-11-11, 09:43 PM
Yes I know the mechanical meaning, never taking more than half damage on an AoE that grants a reflex save.

What I'm trying to get at is that it seems like every class that gets improved evasion already has a good reflex save, a depence on Dex and evasion.

If you're already making almost all of your saves (and taking no damage as a result) improved evasion really doesn't seem to be all that amazing. Evasion is great, it just doesn't seem like the characters that get improved evasion really benefit from it.

Has anyone thought of just switching the order the two are obtained?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-11, 11:05 PM
Never thought of switching the order, but yes, it is fairly useless by that point. It's really a protection against natural 1s. I'd leave it as-is, though, or even allow it to be traded for a Feat. Not unbalancing.

BobVosh
2008-11-12, 02:13 AM
You can take two levels of monk and two levels of rogue and get improved evasion.

Basically it is protection against high dc traps when you roll not so well. Some of those are really high for whatever reason.

KevLar
2008-11-12, 02:51 AM
You can take two levels of monk and two levels of rogue and get improved evasion.
By RAW? No. If you gain Evasion from a second class, it doesn't spontaneously transform to Improved Evasion. It's Uncanny Dodge that works like that. (Barbarian 2/Rogue 2 gives you Improved Uncanny Dodge, which is hardly a big deal since, without multiclassing, you would get in at Level 4 or 5 anyway.)

Trouvere
2008-11-12, 06:14 AM
By RAW? No. If you gain Evasion from a second class, it doesn't spontaneously transform to Improved Evasion. It's Uncanny Dodge that works like that.With the curious exception of the Master Thrower PrC, which grants evasion at level 2 and specifically says "if the character has the evasion ability, he gains improved evasion instead." I'm 80% sure the writer was thinking of uncanny dodge.

Gorbash
2008-11-12, 07:20 AM
If it specifically says they stack - they stack, if it doesn't say so - they don't. Simple as that. It's in the FAQ.


If my character gains evasion from two different
classes, does he now have improved evasion?
No. A 2nd-level rogue/2nd-level monk has evasion from
two different sources, but does not have improved evasion.

As for Improved Evasion... Just because you have a good reflex save, it doesn't mean you'll make it every single time. Its use is to prevent low hp classes (rogues), to get obliterated by a single breath weapon (or any other area attack). Not worth much, but when you fail your save against a red dragon's 14d10, you'll be glad to have it.

Thrawn183
2008-11-12, 08:45 AM
Yeah, but I like seeing rogues getting all crispy. They're like potato chips.

Saph
2008-11-12, 09:13 AM
As for Improved Evasion... Just because you have a good reflex save, it doesn't mean you'll make it every single time. Its use is to prevent low hp classes (rogues), to get obliterated by a single breath weapon (or any other area attack). Not worth much, but when you fail your save against a red dragon's 14d10, you'll be glad to have it.

This. Most classes that get Evasion also get a medicore Hit Die. This means that one bad Reflex save can easily drop you to negatives. Improved Evasion, in this situation, is very nice to have.

If you want an example, in the final boss fight of our Phantasy Star campaign, the BBEG's first action in Round 1 was to fire a Prismatic Ray at the Rogue. The d8 roll comes up a 3; 80 points of electricity damage. The rogue fails the save. Dead.

Other party members: "What? You're a 10th-level Rogue, didn't you get Improved Evasion?"
Rogue: "I didn't think I'd need it."

- Saph

BobVosh
2008-11-12, 09:34 AM
With the curious exception of the Master Thrower PrC, which grants evasion at level 2 and specifically says "if the character has the evasion ability, he gains improved evasion instead." I'm 80% sure the writer was thinking of uncanny dodge.

Yep. Though Shadowdancer did it, but it is because of the uncanny dodge on it.

Epinephrine
2008-11-12, 10:18 AM
It can be handy if you are playing an oddball. Just because you are good at finding/disarming traps, or are good with people, doesn't mean that you have high dex. Sure, most rogues will be prioritising dex, but not all of them. My dwarven saboteur has 18 strength and 12 dex.

I do agree though, it seems a little odd.

BRC
2008-11-12, 11:17 AM
It's the principle of "Every little bit helps". Sure your going to be dodging 8/10 fireballs that get thrown your way, but taking half damage from the ones you don't dodge isn't exactly a bad thing.

KillianHawkeye
2008-11-12, 11:32 AM
Also keep in mind that the majority of high-damage evocation spells target your Reflex. From my experience, Reflex is definitely the most frequently rolled saving throw.

monty
2008-11-12, 01:05 PM
Also keep in mind that the majority of high-damage evocation spells target your Reflex. From my experience, Reflex is definitely the most frequently rolled saving throw.

If your DM is throwing Reflex spells at you at high levels, consider yourself lucky.

Gorbash
2008-11-12, 03:03 PM
high-damage evocation spells

A classic example of epic fail.

Talya
2008-11-12, 03:11 PM
If your DM is throwing Reflex spells at you at high levels, consider yourself lucky.

Now, now. Crushing Sphere is an entirely devastating reflex-save spell every wizard should have in their spellbook for those cases where Fortitude or Will are just not the right choices.

Proven_Paradox
2008-11-12, 03:24 PM
I recall there being a reflex save or be unable to move spell in the SpC. Bands of Iron or something like that? Perfectly valid use of a reflex save spell.


Anyway, yes, improved evasion is essentially protection from rolls below 5. They happen, and if you haven't put much into your constitution and your class gives you less than d10 HD, it's something that may very well save your life. I personally prefer other rogue special abilities to it--crippling strike for example: strength damage is awesome. If I'm going mono-rogue for some reason, improved evasion would be my second or third choice.

KillianHawkeye
2008-11-12, 10:54 PM
If your DM is throwing Reflex spells at you at high levels, consider yourself lucky.

Well, I've been the DM for the past year and most of my spellcasters and special monsters target Reflex and Will at about a 3 to 1 ratio. Not much going against Fortitude except the occaisional poison. I did just finish running Red Hand of Doom, so I did mostly have fireballs, lightning bolts, and creatures with breath weapons at my disposal.

Besides, against my players, going Batman just wouldn't be fair. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2008-11-12, 11:00 PM
By RAW? No. If you gain Evasion from a second class, it doesn't spontaneously transform to Improved Evasion. It's Uncanny Dodge that works like that. (Barbarian 2/Rogue 2 gives you Improved Uncanny Dodge, which is hardly a big deal since, without multiclassing, you would get in at Level 4 or 5 anyway.)

Except that Barbarians or Warblades can get it by 2nd level if they take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), which grant Uncanny Dodge for the price of a feat. This gets them Improved at 2nd level.

RPGuru1331
2008-11-12, 11:05 PM
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, guys. Have you considered that maybe his players don't optimize to hell and back with 40 different books? Dragon Breath is a Reflex save; It is not out of line to say that the normal expectation of a player is to run into Reflex saves.

Frosty
2008-11-12, 11:11 PM
Now, now. Crushing Sphere is an entirely devastating reflex-save spell every wizard should have in their spellbook for those cases where Fortitude or Will are just not the right choices.

Where is Crushing Sphere from?

Talya
2008-11-12, 11:17 PM
Where is Crushing Sphere from?


Lost Empires of Faerun.

It's basically Otiluke's Resilient Sphere + 3d6 nonlethal per round (becoming lethal after you're unconscious).

Saph
2008-11-13, 08:48 AM
Well, I've been the DM for the past year and most of my spellcasters and special monsters target Reflex and Will at about a 3 to 1 ratio. Not much going against Fortitude except the occaisional poison. I did just finish running Red Hand of Doom, so I did mostly have fireballs, lightning bolts, and creatures with breath weapons at my disposal.

Actually, against the average PC group, fireball is an extremely effective spell.

- Saph

KillianHawkeye
2008-11-13, 10:53 AM
I never said it wasn't. Towards the end of the campaign, AoEs were really my only main source of damage against the players, since they severely outclassed my pathetic Hobgoblin Fighters and Bugbear Barbarians on the melee front.

In point of fact, my Rogue player took Improved Evasion as his 10th level special due to the high frequency of AoEs with lots of dice behind them.