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Mauril Everleaf
2008-11-11, 10:52 PM
Like the title says, I am needing feats for a bugbear. If there are any that have been put out by Wizards, that would be awesome. I don't think there are though, so some help from the forums would be awesome.

RTGoodman
2008-11-11, 11:24 PM
As far as I know, there haven't been any racial feats for Bugbears. That said, I think that you could probably just duplicate some existing racial feats (Dragonborn Frenzy, etc.) and palate-swap them to work for bugbears and you'd be fine. And maybe add on a couple that improve their predatory eye racial feature.

For general feats, I'd say that probably depends on your role/class. The bugbear "barbarian" I made (using the Fighter class) took (of course) Power Attack, and also grabbed Improved Initiative (which is almost NEVER bad for any class). I've not really PLAYED enough 4E to know what feats are considered necessary, though, so can't help you much. Armor feats are always pretty good, though, and maybe a feat for a good superior weapon to take advantage of your Oversized trait. (The executioner axe from AV comes to mind.)

Edea
2008-11-12, 12:04 AM
Like the title says, I am needing feats for a bugbear. If there are any that have been put out by Wizards, that would be awesome. I don't think there are though, so some help from the forums would be awesome.

When they do put out a bugbear specific article, you can bet money the first thing they're going to do in said article is give the bugbear a nice, new, fleshed-out racial stat block...and the Oversized racial ability will be removed entirely. It's being phased out; minotaurs already lost it.

Your class will be the major determinant for feats until that article is released. I'm guessing you're either a Great Weapon Fighter, Two Weapon Ranger, or Brutal Scoundrel Rogue; those three class/race combos have already been covered to death and are really easy to build (Power Attack, Backstabber, Weapon Proficiency/Focus (bastard sword/heavy blades), etc.). Anything specific about the class you've chosen, OP?

Mauril Everleaf
2008-11-12, 12:19 AM
Yeah, Brutal Scoundrel Rogue is what I went with. Stats are 18, 13, 19, 13, 16, 12 after racial modifiers. Before anyone comments on the huge point buy, the stats were rolled using a very generous system.

Grynning
2008-11-12, 01:38 AM
...and the Oversized racial ability will be removed entirely. It's being phased out; minotaurs already lost it.

When did Minotaurs "lose it"? Is that in some new version of the errata that I'm unaware of?

And if they took it away from Minotaurs and not Bugbears...that's just dumb. At least minotaurs are actually supposed to be big.

Townopolis
2008-11-12, 01:46 AM
I believe there was a rebuild of the minotaur in the latest DDI content, dragon magazine I think, just as they did with warforged.

Presumably, when they rebuild bugbears, oversized will be gone for good.

What is the problem with the trait, exactly? Why does it need to go?

RTGoodman
2008-11-12, 02:54 AM
I believe there was a rebuild of the minotaur in the latest DDI content, dragon magazine I think, just as they did with warforged.

Yeah, it's in this month's Dragon Magazine article on "Playing Minotaurs" or something like that. They lost Oversized but gained (I believe) Heedless Charge.


Presumably, when they rebuild bugbears, oversized will be gone for good.

What is the problem with the trait, exactly? Why does it need to go?

I'm not entirely sure. I mean, yeah being able to wield oversized weapons is occasionally a good thing, but it's situational. In most cases it's an average of +1 damage, which seems fine to me since that's their whole schtick. And really, in some cases it's NOT a good thing - if the Large version of your weapon is only one die instead of two, then you're at a disadvantage (or, at least, I think you are) when dealing with [W] powers.

Edea
2008-11-12, 10:06 AM
What is the problem with the trait, exactly? Why does it need to go?

Dependence on the use of [W] to determine the damage dealt by Weapon powers.

The increase in the amount of average damage actually varies based on the weapon's normal damage dice (it's best to either go with a d10 1H weapon (i.e. Bastard Sword) or a 2d6 2H weapon (such as a Maul, Mordenkrad, etc.), as the d12->2d6 transition has the least tangible benefit). If you're going from 2d6 to 2d8, that's a +2 average damage markup -per [W]-. At the early levels, it doesn't matter much, but when you start seeing 4[W] to 7[W] powers, or powers that allow for lots of separate attack rolls (such as with ranger), this adds up quickly enough that, as a racial trait, it's a bit powerful for 4e.

As for the OP's question: Weapon Proficiency (rapier), Backstabber, Weapon Focus (light blades), Nimble Blade, Improved Initiative OR Quick Draw, and Surprise Knockdown (I'd guess in that order, to be honest). That should hopefully get you to Paragon.

Asbestos
2008-11-12, 10:54 AM
Yeah, it's in this month's Dragon Magazine article on "Playing Minotaurs" or something like that. They lost Oversized but gained (I believe) Heedless Charge.


Man, I didn't even notice that at all and had to go back and check. Makes sense with all the [W]'s being thrown around I guess. Though, its a little weird when you think of that paragon path that gives them increased reach.

BardicDuelist
2008-11-12, 12:16 PM
The question, how does that apply to RAW?

I mean, couldn't you still legally play (without a houserule) the minotaur from the MM? Does Dragon now take precedence over published books, and more specifically Core books?

Personally, as a DM I'd allow either to be used, but would perhaps limit the feats to only the Dragon version.

Asbestos
2008-11-12, 12:54 PM
The question, how does that apply to RAW?

I mean, couldn't you still legally play (without a houserule) the minotaur from the MM? Does Dragon now take precedence over published books, and more specifically Core books?

Personally, as a DM I'd allow either to be used, but would perhaps limit the feats to only the Dragon version.

That is a good question. Though, in the Character Builder the Gnoll and Warforged races use the Dragon versions. It would seem, to me at least, that Dragon supercedes the books in this case. Also, recall that they re-defined what 'core' means, so Dragon might be just as 'core' as the 3 'primary' (or whatever you want to call them) books.

Of course, DM discretion beats everything, so go nuts.

Gao
2008-11-12, 02:15 PM
Do you NEED bugbear feats? I think that even without racial feats you shouldn't be starved for some feat or another for them.

RTGoodman
2008-11-12, 03:14 PM
That is a good question. Though, in the Character Builder the Gnoll and Warforged races use the Dragon versions. It would seem, to me at least, that Dragon supercedes the books in this case. Also, recall that they re-defined what 'core' means, so Dragon might be just as 'core' as the 3 'primary' (or whatever you want to call them) books.

Of course, DM discretion beats everything, so go nuts.

Yeah - I think we'll have to wait until the last week of the month to see if they stay with the MM version or the Dragon Mag version for the D&D Compendium if we want to see what becomes "official."

Of course, to add to confusion, the Dragonlance setting's Races of Ansalon 4E Conversion (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/20555.aspx) has even MORE different Minotaur stats, which I prefer to the Dragon Mag version. (Of course, I don't think ANYONE can argue with +2 Initiative and essentially +1 to each defense as racial traits, along with other goodies.)

Blood Sea Minotaur
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
Languages: Common, Kothian
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
Oversized: You do not have this trait.
Tactical Training: You gain a +2 racial bonus to initiative
checks and a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.



Regarding Oversized being powerful for a racial ability, the one thing I have to say is that I think it's balanced out by the race having two bonuses to the same defense (+2 Str, +2 Con). The designers said something at some point since 4E came out that races with ability bonuses to the same defense (Eladrin, for instance) should have slightly stronger racial abilities to balance it out, and I agree with that.

Edea
2008-11-12, 03:24 PM
Regarding Oversized being powerful for a racial ability, the one thing I have to say is that I think it's balanced out by the race having two bonuses to the same defense (+2 Str, +2 Con). The designers said something at some point since 4E came out that races with ability bonuses to the same defense (Eladrin, for instance) should have slightly stronger racial abilities to balance it out, and I agree with that.

Yeah, but bugbears are Str/Dex; the bugbear's other racials are also better than the minotaur's, especially the encounter powers (good luck hitting with goring charge at later levels; note that the attack bonus for it was ramped up considerably in the Dragon article). The only thing the minotaur had going for it was Ferocity (and that isn't exactly an ability you want to use regularly, heh). I think they just didn't anticipate Oversized's effect on weapon powers.

RTGoodman
2008-11-12, 03:28 PM
Yeah, but bugbears are Str/Dex

Ah, yeah, I forgot that about them. I always forget their supposed to be rogueish and get that Dex bonus; I usually think they get the same as Minotaurs (Str/Con).

Mauril Everleaf
2008-11-12, 05:23 PM
Do you NEED bugbear feats? I think that even without racial feats you shouldn't be starved for some feat or another for them.

Do Eladrin need Eladrin feats? No, but it makes them just a bit cooler than any other character of the same class. I've made several Brutal Scoundrels and I would like my bugbear to have a bit of uniqueness to him.

Grynning
2008-11-13, 01:54 AM
I'm about to crash out from playing WotLK, so I don't have much time to think about these, but here are my humble offerings for the Bugbear:

Strangling Grip
You wrap a hairy forearm around a foe's neck, sqeezing him close just before you sink your blade into his ribs
Heroic
Requires Bugbear
When you use your Predatory Eye encounter power, the target of the attack is also grabbed (until escape).

Bonecrusher
Heroic
Requires Bugbear
You may use a any Simple Mace (club, mace, greatclub or morningstar) in conjunction with any Melee Weapon attack power from your class, even if that power normally requires a different weapon.

The above feat may be a bit potent in conjunction with the rogue class, especially combined with the Oversized racial. If it seems that way to you, limit it to just the one handed weapons (clubs and maces). I just like the image of the classic bugbear with the morningstar, and I get whimsical about sneak attacking with two-handers in 3rd.

Improved Strangling Grip
Paragon, requires Strangling Grip
An opponent that you have grabbed takes ongoing damage equal to your strength modifier. This damage ends when they escape the grab.

RTGoodman
2008-11-13, 01:33 PM
The above feat may be a bit potent in conjunction with the rogue class, especially combined with the Oversized racial. If it seems that way to you, limit it to just the one handed weapons (clubs and maces). I just like the image of the classic bugbear with the morningstar, and I get whimsical about sneak attacking with two-handers in 3rd.

Well, here's some good news for you - I'm pretty sure Martial Power is going to have some mace- and/or club-based Rogue builds and or powers for Rogues.

In other news, here's a simple Heroic racial feat.


Potent Predator [Bugbear]
You're especially good at ambush tactics.
Prerequisites: Bugbear, predatory eye racial power
Benefit: When using your predatory eye racial power,
you roll d8s instead of d6s.


Also, here's another, but I'm not sure if it should be Paragon or Epic. I'm leaning towards Paragon.


Violent Ambush [Bugbear]
When you land a deadly blow, it's REALLY deadly.
Prerequisites: Bugbear, predatory eye racial power, 11th
level
Benefit: Once per day when you score a critical hit, you
may choose to add extra damage on the hit as if you had
used your predatory eye racial power, even if you have
already used it during the encounter. If you have yet to use
the power during the encounter, it is not expended.

tcrudisi
2009-04-18, 11:45 AM
What is the problem with the trait, exactly? Why does it need to go?

I hold up the Executioner Axe: 1d12 with High Crit and Brutal 2. (average hit damage: 3-12, so 7.5)

Now let's oversize it: 2d6 with High Crit and Brutal 2. (average hit damage: 6-12, so 9).

The average hit damage is a considerable jump. Plus, Brutal becomes more and more broken the lower your damage dice are. Reroll 1's and 2's on a d12? Not that broken. Reroll 1's and 2's on a d4? Broken. That is my guess, anyway.