Rules Questions

[Amon Star]

I have a couple of questions regarding asking NPCs for assistance. The rules say that you can't other them Loot that is Drooled over by an active player. Well, does this include Loot that everyone Drools over? Also, can you offer NPCs Loot that has your face on it?

[EdgarVerona]

I don't think you could offer them loot that everyone drools over, and I'm not sure about the second question... but my instincts tell me that I'd allow it (since you can't give yourself the loot you drool over for a boost).

I could be wrong though... I'm totally going off of what I think would make sense... but if you can't, then it makes that loot far less valuable in said situation (at least as far as assistance is concerned).

[Kumquat]

no, you can't offer Order Icon loot (the ones everyone wants) because there is always another player that wants it. Yes, you can offer loot to an NPC if you are the only other character that drools over it.

[apegamer]

no, you can't offer Order Icon loot (the ones everyone wants) because there is always another player that wants it. Yes, you can offer loot to an NPC if you are the only other character that drools over it.

Right - what he said.

[Ferrinus]

I'd swear this has been clarified somewhere earlier in this thread, but I can't find it:

If Belkar has Jump Attack and he makes a ranged attack on another player with his Twin Daggers of Doom, does he get to collect (or lose) loot at the end of the battle as though the fight were conducted at Range 0?

[Enaloindir]

The question was brought up by Khanthal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1622826&postcount=206), and a first answer was given by Arcade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1623603&postcount=208). The final answer, contradicting Arcade, came from apegamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1623910&postcount=211).


I also have a question regarding the "up a level, down a level" Screw This! card. It says you pick one player who does not get to put a shtick into play. Does this mean the player who plays the card can also put a shtick into play?

There's also another Screw This! card (I think it's "scream like a little girl", or something to that effect), where you can ask any player for assistance. While it would seem illogical to assist yourself, the card text does not seem to prevent this...


Enaloindir

[apegamer]

I also have a question regarding the "up a level, down a level" Screw This! card. It says you pick one player who does not get to put a shtick into play. Does this mean the player who plays the card can also put a shtick into play?

Yes, the person laying the card also gets a shtick.


There's also another Screw This! card (I think it's "scream like a little girl", or something to that effect), where you can ask any player for assistance. While it would seem illogical to assist yourself, the card text does not seem to prevent this...

It should say 'any other player'. That reminds me - the same should be true for Elan's Banjo the Clown shtick. I'll add these to the FAQ.

[Arcade]

The question was brought up by Khanthal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1622826&postcount=206), and a first answer was given by Arcade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1623603&postcount=208). The final answer, contradicting Arcade, came from apegamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1623910&postcount=211).



Unless I'm reading it wrong, I came to the same conclusion that Apegamer did. Belkar attacks at range and then moves into the room after the attack is resolved. He can then take a loot from the player if he won the attack. If I am reading it wrong, then someone please correct me.

I'm wrong enough the rest of the time that I can have self doubts here. :)

[Amon Star]

There's also another Screw This! card (I think it's "scream like a little girl", or something to that effect), where you can ask any player for assistance. While it would seem illogical to assist yourself, the card text does not seem to prevent this.


It should say 'any other player'.

Concerning the "screams like a little girl" Screw This card, can you pick NPCs for assistance? Also, can you play it on yourself?

[Krisjohn]

"...put in the Loot discard pile and removed from play, possibly for the rest of the game if the Loot pile isn't reshuffled."

Oo, can you please point me to the rules regarding reshuffling of discarded loot?

Also, what do you do when you reach the end of the Battle cards?

[Edna]

Can resting heal a wound that is incurred during that rest turn? Here's what happened to us yesterday: after a successful battle, Roy decided to rest on his next turn, so that he could pick up two more loot and unflip his shticks. He was not wounded during the battle. However, while he was resting, another player moved into the room to pick up loot, and triggered a trap with the multiple target icon. Roy failed to evade, so he took a wound as indicated on the trap card. Can he heal that wound during the current rest phase? We decided that he could, since page 20 of the rules specifies that "At the start of your next turn, you are done resting...Heal 1 Wound and unflip all of your flipped shticks."

Also, is there a penalty for evasion while resting, like there is for defense?

Edna

[The Giant]

Concerning the "screams like a little girl" Screw This card, can you pick NPCs for assistance?

No. The card requires the players chosen to decide whether or not to assist when there is no Loot being offered. NPC players can't really do that, because there is no one to make the decision for them. Therefore, they can't be one of the two players chosen to assist.

As a rule of thumb, if an effect that can target a player requires any sort of decision on the part of the targeted player, then that effect can't target an NPC. Likewise, anything that moves a player, causes a player to do something with a shtick, Wounds a player, etc., cannot target an NPC, because NPC's don't do any of those things.


Also, can you play it on yourself?

If you mean when you are the battling player, yes. (The fact that you can be one of the two players offering assistance is spelled out on the card.)


Oo, can you please point me to the rules regarding reshuffling of discarded loot?

They are not specifically spelled out, but are inferred from the "Removing Traps from the Game" heading on page 26. It will be added to the errata at some point.


Also, what do you do when you reach the end of the Battle cards?

At the end of the turn during which the Battle Cards ran out, you reshuffle the discard pile. Note that this means that if you are in the middle of playing a big battle (like Xykon), every player may run out of Battle Cards before the Battle Size is reached. If that happens, then that's the end of adding cards to that battle, and the current player faces it as-is. In any case, don't reshuffle until the end of that turn.

This will also be added to the errata at some point.


Can resting heal a wound that is incurred during that rest turn? Here's what happened to us yesterday: after a successful battle, Roy decided to rest on his next turn, so that he could pick up two more loot and unflip his shticks. He was not wounded during the battle. However, while he was resting, another player moved into the room to pick up loot, and triggered a trap with the multiple target icon. Roy failed to evade, so he took a wound as indicated on the trap card. Can he heal that wound during the current rest phase? We decided that he could, since page 20 of the rules specifies that "At the start of your next turn, you are done resting...Heal 1 Wound and unflip all of your flipped shticks."

You played it correctly, you may heal wounds suffered while resting.


Also, is there a penalty for evasion while resting, like there is for defense?

No.

[Kiero]

Apologies I've not browsed the entire thread. If they've been answered already, could you link me to the post in response?

Anyways, here's my little brace.
1) Xykon's stack - he's at the top of it, often with a massive wedge of monsters courtesy of supports. Yet once he dies, they all run, right? So do they exist only to give him boosts to make that one final fight harder?

2) Schtick-less combat. If you have no schticks which are applicable to a contest, can you still get assistance? Ie all your bonuses will come from the assistance of others, even though you're on +0 for the purposes of schtick? We've been playing it that as long as the character in question is on the same level as you, and there isn't anything else preventing it, you can always ask for assistance.

Cheers.

[Enaloindir]

1) Xykon's stack - he's at the top of it, often with a massive wedge of monsters courtesy of supports. Yet once he dies, they all run, right? So do they exist only to give him boosts to make that one final fight harder?Correct


2) Schtick-less combat. If you have no schticks which are applicable to a contest, can you still get assistance? Ie all your bonuses will come from the assistance of others, even though you're on +0 for the purposes of schtick? We've been playing it that as long as the character in question is on the same level as you, and there isn't anything else preventing it, you can always ask for assistance.You can get assistance for any combat roll, whether you use a shtick or not. Just remember that the best result you can achieve when fighting without shticks is a draw...

Enaloindir

[Kiero]

You can get assistance for any combat roll, whether you use a shtick or not. Just remember that the best result you can achieve when fighting without shticks is a draw...

Enaloindir

Where does it say that? We've always taken it that win is a win.

[Millennium]

1) Xykon's stack - he's at the top of it, often with a massive wedge of monsters courtesy of supports. Yet once he dies, they all run, right? So do they exist only to give him boosts to make that one final fight harder?
That's correct. It seemed strange to my group, so we decided to move Xykon to the bottom of the stack (but ahead of any Henchman cards in the stack). We got an idea of the problem here when Roy ripped through the entire stack with Great Cleavage and arrived at Xykon with triple-digit Attack/Defense bonuses: very dramatic, but no contest whatsoever. We won't be doing that again.

[Kiero]

That's correct. It seemed strange to my group, so we decided to move Xykon to the bottom of the stack (but ahead of any Henchman cards in the stack). We got an idea of the problem here when Roy ripped through the entire stack with Great Cleavage and arrived at Xykon with triple-digit Attack/Defense bonuses: very dramatic, but no contest whatsoever. We won't be doing that again.

That's exactly it; if he's on the top the rest of the stack is irrelevant besides the Boosting. If he's on the bottom, he doesn't get boosted and the characters get to whittle their way through a horde of minions (potentially getting stronger in the process, or using Great Cleavage) before they get to a much-depleted Xykon.

[Enaloindir]

Where does it say that? We've always taken it that win is a win.The rule is located on page 18 of the rulebook:


If you win a battle without a Battle Shtick, the result is treated as a draw.

Enaloindir

[Kiero]

Ah, we stand corrected. Now I understand why Armour/Hide/Poorly Planned Illusion and so on have a use.

[Amon Star]

No. The card requires the players chosen to decide whether or not to assist when there is no Loot being offered. NPC players can't really do that, because there is no one to make the decision for them. Therefore, they can't be one of the two players chosen to assist.

As a rule of thumb, if an effect that can target a player requires any sort of decision on the part of the targeted player, then that effect can't target an NPC. Likewise, anything that moves a player, causes a player to do something with a shtick, Wounds a player, etc., cannot target an NPC, because NPC's don't do any of those things.



If you mean when you are the battling player, yes. (The fact that you can be one of the two players offering assistance is spelled out on the card.)

Thanks, however, I'm afraid I have another question. If you get a Trap in your initial 3 Loot Cards, do you discard it and draw another one, or just discard it?

[The Giant]

Anyways, here's my little brace.
1) Xykon's stack - he's at the top of it, often with a massive wedge of monsters courtesy of supports. Yet once he dies, they all run, right? So do they exist only to give him boosts to make that one final fight harder?

Yes, they exist to make Xykon tougher. Also note that they might have an effect if you try to use an Area Effect shtick on Xykon, such as trying to Fireball him when he has a minion with Bloodlust right under him.


2) Schtick-less combat. If you have no schticks which are applicable to a contest, can you still get assistance? Ie all your bonuses will come from the assistance of others, even though you're on +0 for the purposes of schtick? We've been playing it that as long as the character in question is on the same level as you, and there isn't anything else preventing it, you can always ask for assistance.

Yes, you can get assistance, or use any other non-Battle Shtick that adds to your Attack or Defense (such as Elan's Conscience Devil/Angel cards). But, as mentioned, the best result you can ever get without a Battle Shtick is a draw.


Thanks, however, I'm afraid I have another question. If you get a Trap in your initial 3 Loot Cards, do you discard it and draw another one, or just discard it?

Discard and draw another.

[Amon Star]

Discard and draw another.

Thanks, we've been playing that one wrong.

[RibbonViking]

I've now spent a good couple hours poring through this entire thread, and while some questions have been answered, I've still got a few left.

Is Eternal Gratitude usable against NPCs, or just PCs? The wording on the card is, "Choose any one player that assisted you...", but from what I've seen in these threads, the terms don't seem to be strictly applied.

Is there anything to prevent people from outright trading loot, rather than bribing for help in battle, or other officially sanctioned exchanges?

In the room with the Xykon statue, is there really a choice about defacing it if you rest there? The card says, "you may deface the statue", but you've got eight times the chance of something bad happening as something good, so it's not really a good bet. Is it just there for the people who like long shots, or are you supposed to have to roll every time you rest in the room?

I now see why Xykon goes at the top of the stack rather than the bottom, putting all of his sword fodder in front of him, but I'll throw in another possibility: Determine Xykon's (or Redcloak's) strength at the beginning of each turn, giving him all of the support bonuses for the backup in his room, even though they'll be dead by the time you get to him personally. In Xykon's case, it makes a sort of sense anyway, since he is supported by undead.

Given what I've seen throughout, it's kinda answered the question of how it's supposed to be, but I figure I'll throw out this variant also, since it does kinda present different strategy options: When calling for help, move the aiding player into the same room as the battle they're going to help with. It means that they're in position to grab additional Loot from that battle, and may potentially pull them out of position for some other fight that they had on their docket.


I'd also like to revisit the question posed in post #145 (page 5) of this thread, and kinda addressed in #147-8. It doesn't read to me like the question was answered at all. The response at the time was, "Since Swipe doesn't actually defeat the monster (ie. remove it from the encounter), Haley cannot continue on to attack/defend the next monster in the stack."

The last bullet point under 8.) Battle Additional Monsters says, "You may continue to battle Monsters one after another until you lose, a battle is a draw, there are no more monsters, or you choose to stop." It doesn't say you must defeat the monster (or remove it from the encounter).

Given a successful Swipe, that's not a loss or a draw, and there must still be monsters there, or it wouldn't be a question in the first place, she'd just take the Loot. So why must she stop? Why wouldn't she be able to continue, either fighting or Swiping? There's nothing I can see elsewhere in Battle Additional Monsters, Aftermath, or Apply Results that implies to me that Swipe should end her turn. Is there something else I'm missing?

[apegamer]

Is Eternal Gratitude usable against NPCs, or just PCs? The wording on the card is, "Choose any one player that assisted you...", but from what I've seen in these threads, the terms don't seem to be strictly applied.

Yes, you can give loot to NPC's.


Is there anything to prevent people from outright trading loot, rather than bribing for help in battle, or other officially sanctioned exchanges?

You can only trade loot within the confines of the rules (i.e. normally for just help in battles.)


In the room with the Xykon statue, is there really a choice about defacing it if you rest there?

You do not need to deface the statue. Most people who are good at math will not deface it.


When calling for help, move the aiding player into the same room as the battle they're going to help with. It means that they're in position to grab additional Loot from that battle, and may potentially pull them out of position for some other fight that they had on their docket.

Interesting idea - this would mean that people wouldn't automatically accept loot. We'll try playing this way sometime and post it as a possible house rule.


Given a successful Swipe, that's not a loss or a draw, and there must still be monsters there, or it wouldn't be a question in the first place, she'd just take the Loot. So why must she stop?

It might be more clear to say that you can only encounter each monster once on your turn AND you can (normally) only encounter the top monster. If you've already battled the top monster and it's still there after you're finished, then you can't battle any further.

We might be able to think of exceptions to that, but it kind of works for me for now.

[Daryoon]

Me and a couple friends just finished up our second game, and we had a question towards the end.

After you defeat Xykon and the dungeon is collapsing which floor is the NPC characters on? We were not sure which floor they were on to provide support in a PvP fight.

Keep up the good work guys, we are really enjoying this game and look forward to any expansions you guys come up with.

[Enaloindir]

After you defeat Xykon and the dungeon is collapsing which floor is the NPC characters on? We were not sure which floor they were on to provide support in a PvP fight.
As usual, they are on the deepest level which still has a PC on it...

Enaloindir

[Enaloindir]

My turn to ask a question ;)

When using area of effect shticks, if the top monster has the Duel ability, are you still prohibited from asking for assistance? What about when the second monster has the Duel ability?
-> Going by the descriptive text, I would say yes.

If you have a specific bonus against a monster type (like V's loot which grants +2 Attack and +2 Defense against Dragons), when do you only apply the bonus? If you are shooting a fireball at a Dragon with a Defense Rating of 10, and some other monster with a Defense Rating of 9, you have to beat the 10. Can you apply the +2 bonus provided by the loot to this roll? If so, you would only need to roll a 4 to beat the Dragon's Defense Rating (after factoring in Fireball's +5 Attack). This way, however, you would not really beat the other monster's Defense Rating. So, so you take the creature's printed Defense Rating into account, or do you look at the actual Defense Rating?

Thanks,
Enaloindir

[apegamer]

The rules state that any and all abilities of all targeted monsters take effect. So since Fireball will affect 2 monsters, it doesn't matter if it's the top or second monster that has Duel - you cannot ask for help.

Yes, in the instance you describe below, you get the +2 bonus.

[Enaloindir]

Thanks!

Enaloindir

[wibbit]

i cant seem to find it, but its a 1 on a die roll a fail? it would seem to make sence since at some point or another with enough sticks and bonus's a roll of a 1 plus your sticks = dead monster.

[Enaloindir]

[...]its a 1 on a die roll a fail? [...]Nope, no such things as critical failures. If you can get your bonus to the roll high enough, you don't need bother rolling anymore. :)

Enaloindir

[Kumquat]

I will add that there is a group of variant rules that you could use on page 23, one of which is Lucky Bastards which makes 1 auto-failures, and 12 auto-successes. Obviously you don't have to use this, as it is a variant, but if you feel it is appealing to do this, you can. Just thought that information might be useful.

[Enaloindir]

I stand corrected...

Enaloindir

[evnafets]

Finally managed another game of this yesterday.
Roy, V and Elan were stumbling through the dungeon having fun.

Inevitable question after playing
There are trap cards that cause you to "lose a turn". What happens if you pick this up as the first thing in a turn? While resting?
This is how we played it out
- Picking up after a battle = Lose NEXT turn.
- Pick up as part of Resting?? - Lose turn AFTER resting?
- Pick up at start of turn = lose the rest of THIS turn. Ie you picked up loot found a trap, and lose move/attack actions as a result. However you could have traded in schticks/searched for stairs already.

[Ptarth]

I've been reading the comic for a long time, and it's great. I finally bought the game and played it, which has lead me to joining the forum in order to ask questions.

The game is great so far, but my group brought up a few questions (pardons if they are obnoxiously nitpicky, but what else do you expect from a group of gamers).

Is there a maximum hand size for battle cards? I.e. can Durkon rest and re-use WWTD to take up the entire battle deck, three cards at a time?

Elan’s Wacky Hijinks: Is it within the strict interpretation of the rules that if two players refuse to put their fingers on their nose that then the shtick has no effect?

Can you voluntarily flip a shtick without using it? I.e., can Belkar flip Leap Attack, just because he feels like it (and for no other reason)? Even battle shticks (Allowing V to reduce the size of the Fireball area effect)?

The proposed rules in the FAQ for dealing with huge combat sizes is to limit support to a single monster (the highest applicable on the stack). If a goblin ninja is at the top of the stack followed by Redcloak and a host of goblins, then would the correct play be that the ninja would receive all of the assist bonuses and Redcloak would receive support only from the ninja (and thus only increase the stack size by one)?

If the stack survives unharmed, in the next battle since the ninja only receives bonuses during the first turn in play, would the goblins then support Redcloak (both increasing Redcloak’s Attack and Defense and increasing the battle size, but not changing the battle size because it already was determined the previous round) or does the ninja still “claim” the supporting goblins?

While normally this wouldn’t matter, because you’d have to kill the ninja before you could get to Redcloak, but if you are using Area Effect shticks it DOES matter. A ninja with a boosted attack and an unsupported Redcloak are cheese for V’s Fireball grater, while an unsupported ninja with a supported Redcloak are an entirely different story.

This also applies to dealing with Xykon. Can you use Elan’s Poorly Planned Illusion to move in a low-power support stealer into Xykon’s room to reduce Xykon’s defense and then follow up with more Area Effect shticks to either weed out Xykon’s supporters or to take Xykon himself out?

A suggestion, but to avoid cheese like this, how about limiting each supporting monster in increase the battle size only once per room, regardless of the number of applicable supportable monsters with Horde (or similar) abilities? (The Giant already suggested this back in the Invincible Xykon thread).

This would also allow supporting monsters to support multiple monsters within a room, meaning that a Ninja Goblin and Redcloak would have the same Attack and Defense as Redcloak and a Ninja Goblin, which reduces Area Effect cheese.

[apegamer]

Is there a maximum hand size for battle cards? I.e. can Durkon rest and re-use WWTD to take up the entire battle deck, three cards at a time?

There's no limit to your hand size. Yes, if Durkon wants to spend every other turn resting, he can take the whole deck if that's the kind of thing that makes the game fun for him.


Elan’s Wacky Hijinks: Is it within the strict interpretation of the rules that if two players refuse to put their fingers on their nose that then the shtick has no effect?

Right, if two or more people don't touch their nose, then the shtick has no effect.


Can you voluntarily flip a shtick without using it?

No.


The proposed rules in the FAQ for dealing with huge combat sizes is to limit support to a single monster (the highest applicable on the stack). If a goblin ninja is at the top of the stack followed by Redcloak and a host of goblins, then would the correct play be that the ninja would receive all of the assist bonuses and Redcloak would receive support only from the ninja (and thus only increase the stack size by one)?

Right. A monster can only support the top-most monster that it can support. Both Redcloak and the other goblins will support the top-most goblin (the ninjas) and Redcloak will receive support from only the ninjas, since it's the only other goblin in play when Redcloak comes down and since it's the top-most goblin that the ninjas can support.


If the stack survives unharmed, in the next battle since the ninja only receives bonuses during the first turn in play, would the goblins then support Redcloak (both increasing Redcloak’s Attack and Defense and increasing the battle size, but not changing the battle size because it already was determined the previous round) or does the ninja still “claim” the supporting goblins?

No, they're still supporting the ninjas. However, if the ninjas are defeated, then the goblin's support will switch to Redcloak.

[apegamer]

There are trap cards that cause you to "lose a turn". What happens if you pick this up as the first thing in a turn? While resting?
This is how we played it out
- Picking up after a battle = Lose NEXT turn.
- Pick up as part of Resting?? - Lose turn AFTER resting?
- Pick up at start of turn = lose the rest of THIS turn. Ie you picked up loot found a trap, and lose move/attack actions as a result. However you could have traded in schticks/searched for stairs already.

Page 20 of the rules should answer these questions. As soon as you lose a turn, your turn ends and you lay your character's move token on it's side. The next turn you stand the move token back up, and the turn after that you can move.

If you are forced to lose a turn before you start resting, then you don't rest.

[evnafets]

Page 20 of the rules should answer these questions. As soon as you lose a turn, your turn ends and you lay your character's move token on it's side. The next turn you stand the move token back up, and the turn after that you can move.

If you are forced to lose a turn before you start resting, then you don't rest.

Ouch. That seems kinda harsh if you find this trap by picking up loot at the start of your turn.
In effect you would lose almost TWO turns. The current turn is over (you didn't have a chance to move/attack). You miss the next turn entirely just to stand up.

Your clarification with regard to resting has confused me even more.
According to the rules on page20, when you rest
- You turn your token on its side. You are now resting. Your turn is over
- If there is loot in the room, you may pick up 2 loot cards immediately when you begin resting
(emphasis is mine)
You said
If you are forced to lose a turn before you start resting, then you don't rest.
However you have to start resting to draw the two loot...


This has jogged my memory for another question I had.
Roy kills a pile of monsters, and a whole bunch of loot drops in the room.

On his next turn, Roy rests in the room, and picks up two loot.
Elan comes into the room and triggers an area trap while picking up the loot.
Would Roy have to make his evasion roll at -4 because he is resting?

[Dragonglove]

I had a question I hope could be answered here. My roommate and I were playing a two player game to get the jist of things before we started a large game.

He is attacking a couple of monsters with a fireball from 3 rooms away. The monsters are Goblin Girl and Goblin Teenagers. Goblin Girl has the highest defense, but the Teenagers have the outsmart support ability. Does outsmart kick in or not? We weren't sure because it's ranged, AOE, and not the person with the highest defense. Please help us with this so we can continue our kickass game.

Thanks.

[Enaloindir]

Yes, the outsmart ability kicks in...


Enaloindir

[Kumquat]

well, yes it would kick in, though I don't think the goblin teenagers have the range to use outsmart back on V, since monsters without enough range to reach you can not use there offensive abilities to counter you. So normally, if the monster has enough range it would work, but I believe goblin teenagers have no range so it would not...I think

[Enaloindir]

The monster's range doesn't matter until you figure out the results of the battle. Hence, the outsmart ability kicks in, whether you attack it from range 0, 1, or 42. :)

Enaloindir

[Kumquat]

Corrected! (like bam or biff in the old batman shows, only without me getting beaten up)

[Dragonglove]

Thanks for the answer guys. I still want to read through the archive here, but I had another question. If Belkar has two Halfling Rage shticks out, can he use both in a single battle? If so, does he lose 0, 1, or 2 wounds?

[Kumquat]

he can indeed use both, and would only take one damage. In essence it would go like this:

1)Belkar flips the first rage, gains +3 on attack or defence, and this rage is supported by the second copy, so he does not take a wound at the end of the turn.
2)Belkar then flips the second rage, gains another +3 on attack or defence and as he has no additional schticks to support this one, he takes the wound at the end of the turn.

(ooooh, colours :smallbiggrin:)

[Kodra]

I'm sure this has been posted, or is just common knowledge, but there seems to be an arguement between our group whether or not you can use the same Shtick (such as Elan's Rapier) more than once in a single Battle Stack.

In other words, I use the rapier to fend off a kobold, and then use the same rapier shtick to fend off a ogre underneath him.

The argument has come up over the phrase "Select a new battle shtick" when describing proceeding past the first opponent.

Thanks for the help.

[Enaloindir]

Yes, you can use they same Shtick over and over again (until you face a monster resistant to the Shtick of course).

Enaloindir

[Theli]

I bought the game recently and I'm loving it. :smallbiggrin:

I'd just like to ask for the ruling for ranged attacks against creatures with bloodlust to be reiterated. I've pretty much read every post in this thread and it kinda seems like there was a little bit of conflicting advice given with regards to this.

I'd like to know, specifically, which of the following is true:

1a) If monsters don't have enough range to reach ranged attackers, they do indeed "draw" instead of "win". (Therefore, any victory that doesn't have some kind of effect listed is considered a draw.)

1b) Range just prevents the "win" from doing damage. It doesn't become a draw, it's still a damageless win. (Therefore, unless it specifically uses the word draw in some ruling (as to shtickless fighting or a shtick that draws), it just doesn't do any damage. Monsters don't "fight shtickless" as they have no shticks, just stats.)

2a) A "draw" here turns into a "win" via bloodlust, causing damage in spite of the range. (So when the attack equals the defense, it is a draw and bloodlust turns it into a win causing damage.)

2b) A "draw" here turns into a "win" via bloodlust, but doesn't cause damage due to the range. (So when the attack equals the defense, it is a draw which is turned into a win, but the range prevents the win from causing damage.)


Hope to hear from ya soon,
Theli

[apegamer]

1a) If monsters don't have enough range to reach ranged attackers, they do indeed "draw" instead of "win". (Therefore, any victory that doesn't have some kind of effect listed is considered a draw.)

Right.


2a) A "draw" here turns into a "win" via bloodlust, causing damage in spite of the range. (So when the attack equals the defense, it is a draw and bloodlust turns it into a win causing damage.)

2b) A "draw" here turns into a "win" via bloodlust, but doesn't cause damage due to the range. (So when the attack equals the defense, it is a draw which is turned into a win, but the range prevents the win from causing damage.)

Page 18 of the rules has an example showing V taking damage from a creature with Bloodlust at range.

[Theli]

Thanks for the quick response.

So there's nothing to fear from range-less bloodlust... Cool.

[One_Wolf]

I have not yet played, but I have a quick question.

The "Screw This!" card "Solo Challenge" it says:

"If the player already requested assistance, that request is canceled and the offered Loot is kept."

My question is, kept by whom? The player who is battling or the player who was offered the Loot?

I'm guessing that because loot is technically not given until after the battle that it means the player who is battling keeps the Loot, but I am unsure.

If it means the other way then holding the card until after loot is offered would be a good way to really mess with the player.

-One Wolf

[nosajtpno]

I have a few questions:

What happens if I equip enough loot to enter xykon's lair, then unequip it? I figure that I can stay in the lair, but if I leave, I have to re-equip myself before entering again. This matters because I might need to trade one of the loot I had equipped for assistance once I'm in the lair.

Also, I think this has been asked before but I couldn't find where, if I ask Elan for assistance with 3 Sorceror's Fruit Pies (1 Elan face), and he has one Bard Song, how much of a bonus do I recieve? +7 (6 for loot and +1 for the song) or +9 (6 for the loot and +3 for the song for each loot)

[Enaloindir]

My question is, kept by whom? The player who is battling or the player who was offered the Loot?

I'm guessing that because loot is technically not given until after the battle that it means the player who is battling keeps the Loot, but I am unsure.
For the same reason (i.e., loot isn't given until after combat), I would say the battling player keeps the loot.



What happens if I equip enough loot to enter xykon's lair, then unequip it? I figure that I can stay in the lair, but if I leave, I have to re-equip myself before entering again.
This would seem to be correct. The only place I can find in the rules where equiped loot is checked, is upon entering Xykon's lair. Nothing in the rulebook seems to imply you must leave the lair if you no longer meet the loot requirement.
Of course, it might be nice for the more PvP-oriented characters to be able to force other characters out of the lair. :smallamused:


[...] if I ask Elan for assistance with 3 Sorceror's Fruit Pies (1 Elan face), and he has one Bard Song, how much of a bonus do I recieve? +7 (6 for loot and +1 for the song) or +9 (6 for the loot and +3 for the song for each loot)
I seem to remember the Bard Song bonus applies only once for each combat, not once for each loot card. So, you would get the +7 bonus.
If you're into D&D, think of the bard song bonus as a morale bonus to your attack or defense score...multiple instances of the same bonus won't stack... :smallbiggrin:


Enaloindir

[Kumquat]

for support purposes:
-Yes you can stay in the layer after losing loot, as stated by the fourth bullet under "Loot and Schtick Requirements" on page 27.
-The bard song question was indeed asked (by me as a matter of fact) and the answer, which Enaloindir has correct, can be found in the FAQ or page 6 of this thread

As I randomly skim the rules I find the example on page 18 which states that even at a range bloodlust still wins from the snakedragons, and The Thing With The Eyes gets to injure V at a range even though it was a draw originally. I assume this is a special situation for ranged bloodlust because of the area of effect stuff.

[apegamer]

As I randomly skim the rules I find the example on page 18 which states that even at a range bloodlust still wins from the snakedragons, and The Thing With The Eyes gets to injure V at a range even though it was a draw originally. I assume this is a special situation for ranged bloodlust because of the area of effect stuff.

I've edited my answer below accordingly.

[One_Wolf]

I could be wrong, but I took that example to be the reason why the "monsters" (plural) won the battle instead of a draw.

Because Dragon Snakes was the monster card which had the higher defense value that card is used to determine the outcome.

"Bloodlust" caused the otherwise draw to be a win.

But the damage came from That thing with the Eyes, causing 1 wound because it has sufficient range. (The example says the monsters win, but only list V as losing "1 wound".) Dragon Snakes did not cause any damage.

I believed that the wound would not have been taken if Dragon Snakes did not have the Bloodlust ability, because although That thing with the Eyes has sufficient range it was not used to determine the outcome.

Am I totally off base? (Note: I still have not played yet, just read the rules to death. Going to play Saturday, and want to get it right)

-One Wolf

[Theli]

Yeah. It was "That thing with the Eyes" that caused the damage in that instance. And that monster doesn't have bloodlust.

This brings up another question. If you do a ranged attack with an AOE and it affects multiple defenders, all of which have range to counter...if you fail to win then do you take a wound from each monster with range to hit you?


- Theli

[Kumquat]

ok, lets see if I can do this...

-If you attack at a range you can only be hurt or negatively affected by a monster with enough range to target you back.
-Bloodlust does not negatively affect you, it just changes the win/lose condition, and so has infinite range.
-Thus if a monster in a group has bloodlust and something else has range, then the battle can be won using bloodlust so the other monsters can affect you.

as per the 9th bullet under "Area Effect Schticks" (page 18) "if you lose...lose 1 wound (not 1 wound per targeted monster)"

[nosajtpno]

About the Emergency Exit room: It states that the stairs can not be used when fleeing the dungeon. I understand they can't be used when you've taken 4 wounds, but can they be used when the dungeon is collapsing? One of my roommates thinks that that also counts as "fleeing the dungeon".

[SKarious]

here are some questions:
1) Can I decide on my turn I want to "stay": not moving, but not resting? if so, how many loot can I pick up?

2) Can I search for stairs after I lose a battle? (assuming I don't flee)

3) Durkon moves into Xykon's Lair and faces Xykon himself, and a lot of other undeads. Can Durkon successfully Turn Undead, and after that continue attacking/defending against the weakened Xykon with his other shticks?

[Kumquat]

I can answer that!

1) yes, you can stay without resting, but you can only pick up one loot for the turn as picking up loot beyond the first is a bonus for something else always and you can only pick up loot at the begining or end of your turn, not both.

2) In the page 9 side bar about searching for the stairs it says that you can attempt to find stairs in any room where there are no monsters, so if you lose a battle to monsters then there will still be monsters in the room and so you may not search for stairs. If, however, you lose a PVP battle in a room with no monsters, then yes, you may search for the stairs assuming that the battle did not immediately end your turn.

3) Yes, Durkon can turn the undead from under Xykon. However, a little searching has me finding that on page five of this thread it was said that when Haley Swiped something it did not remove the top monster from the stack, so she could not continue to battle. I assume this would also work the same way with turn undead, though I can't find it spelled out specifically anywhere. So I would say no, you can not continue to beat up Xykon after rekilling his undead from under him.

[Skjaldbakka]

This also applies to dealing with Xykon. Can you use Elan’s Poorly Planned Illusion to move in a low-power support stealer into Xykon’s room to reduce Xykon’s defense and then follow up with more Area Effect shticks to either weed out Xykon’s supporters or to take Xykon himself out?

Actually, Xykon always floats to the top of the stack, so that would not be an issue anyway.

[Totally Guy]

3) Yes, Durkon can turn the undead from under Xykon. However, a little searching has me finding that on page five of this thread it was said that when Haley Swiped something it did not remove the top monster from the stack, so she could not continue to battle. I assume this would also work the same way with turn undead, though I can't find it spelled out specifically anywhere. So I would say no, you can not continue to beat up Xykon after rekilling his undead from under him.

I agree with you but for a different reason. The Turn Undead card is an area effect shtick so by the last point on page 18 the combat stops after the shtick is resolved.

I know that you can target all the undead under Xykon with that trick however it still feels wrong. I can't see the logic that allows the thing with eyes (that has enchanted) to act as the defence score for the monsters (against a fireball if it has the highest defence) whilst Xykon's ability to avoid be turned doesn't allow Xykon (as an undead) to represent the monsters.

[squidly_bard]

what's the point of having a monster with high defense!!?!?!? you just attack it! on nthe other hand you HAVE 2 defend the first turn so there's a point in monsters with high attack. really

[Melange]

Something about Haley has been bugging me.... Her Longbow and Sneak Attack seem backwards. Her Longbow increases her defense and range, and her sneak attack increases her Attack at range 0. This seems counter intuitive, since you cannot make ranged defenses (unless against the Surprise Screw This card), and you really don't want to attack from melee with Haley, the whole point of her is attacking from range...

I was figuring what should happen is Longbow boost increases attack +2 and Range while Sneak attack boosts defense by +1 (since they still end up with +5/+5 at the end).

This just seems to make more sense considering how her moves are used and how she is expected to be played...

[irlpotato]

what's the point of having a monster with high defense!!?!?!? you just attack it! on nthe other hand you HAVE 2 defend the first turn so there's a point in monsters with high attack. really

You're question is a bit hard to understand: but what the hell. On your first battle you have to defend, but on subsequent ones you can choose to attack or defend. In this case its a matter of balancing your attack/defense stats against its attack/defense stats...

so the point of having monsters with high defense is so that players might choose to defend against it during a battle, if that player had a weak attack score.

[Melange]

so the point of having monsters with high defense is so that players might choose to defend against it during a battle, if that player had a weak attack score.



Fortunately monsters with obscenly high defense tend to also have hide... Also the other reason they have high defense is that if you just had combat and lost, then when you start your next turn you decide to try and kill it again, now you HAVE to attack since you are battling before moving.

[Skjaldbakka]

Something about Haley has been bugging me.... Her Longbow and Sneak Attack seem backwards. Her Longbow increases her defense and range, and her sneak attack increases her Attack at range 0. This seems counter intuitive, since you cannot make ranged defenses (unless against the Surprise Screw This card), and you really don't want to attack from melee with Haley, the whole point of her is attacking from range...

I was figuring what should happen is Longbow boost increases attack +2 and Range while Sneak attack boosts defense by +1 (since they still end up with +5/+5 at the end).

This just seems to make more sense considering how her moves are used and how she is expected to be played...


I don't see what you mean. I don't see attacking at range as Haley's strategy, except to steal loot from palyers while they rest. I've found that she is pretty much Roy's equal for the first fight of a stack. Roy of course gets stronger for each monster he defeats, but Haley still pretty much wins.

I played a Roy vs. Haley game Friday and the end result was that Haley had more of ROY's loot than Roy did. Roy couldn't even get to Xykon's lair.

Not to mention that thematically Sneak Attack ought to be, you know, an attack. I kinda wonder why you get any defense bonus from sneak attack at all, since defending implies the other guy is attacking (and would thus have inititiative).

[Melange]

I don't see what you mean. I don't see attacking at range as Haley's strategy, except to steal loot from palyers while they rest. I've found that she is pretty much Roy's equal for the first fight of a stack. Roy of course gets stronger for each monster he defeats, but Haley still pretty much wins.
Haley has a bow, and even in the instructions it talks about her major advantage being that she can attack from range. Unfortunately the longbow boost seems to think otherwise.



Not to mention that thematically Sneak Attack ought to be, you know, an attack. I kinda wonder why you get any defense bonus from sneak attack at all, since defending implies the other guy is attacking (and would thus have inititiative).
I the defense bonus being that she stole initiative from the enemy (ie the comic with Trigak... it tries to surprise her, elan, and belkar, but she steal initiative and sneak-attacks.... twice....). I think that sort of action works hand-in-hand with defense stat, not attack stat.

[SKarious]

I don't see what you mean. I don't see attacking at range as Haley's strategy, except to steal loot from palyers while they rest.
You can't steal loot with a ranged attack, you have to be at range 0.

also, a question: can I play "Surprise!" on myself?

[apegamer]

About the Emergency Exit room: It states that the stairs can not be used when fleeing the dungeon. I understand they can't be used when you've taken 4 wounds, but can they be used when the dungeon is collapsing? One of my roommates thinks that that also counts as "fleeing the dungeon".
Yes, you can use Emergency Exit while the dungeon is collapsing.

[apegamer]

I agree with you but for a different reason. The Turn Undead card is an area effect shtick so by the last point on page 18 the combat stops after the shtick is resolved.

I know that you can target all the undead under Xykon with that trick however it still feels wrong. I can't see the logic that allows the thing with eyes (that has enchanted) to act as the defence score for the monsters (against a fireball if it has the highest defence) whilst Xykon's ability to avoid be turned doesn't allow Xykon (as an undead) to represent the monsters.

He's right - the 5th bullet under Area Effect Shticks on page 18 clarifies that the stack can be affected, even if the monster itself cannot. Note that Xykon would still count in the number of monsters affected by the Area Effect shtick (if it was V's Fireball instead of Durkon's Turn Undead, for instance.)

[Ptarth]

Durkon's Turn Undead cannot be used against Xykon ... (and that) card cannot be used at all during that battle.

Back on page 4 The Giant says the opposite.



Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!


Consensus?

[Melange]

I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.

[Arcade]

Fortunately monsters with obscenly high defense tend to also have hide... Also the other reason they have high defense is that if you just had combat and lost, then when you start your next turn you decide to try and kill it again, now you HAVE to attack since you are battling before moving.

This isn't true. When you initiate an attack on a monster in the same square, you can choose to attack or defend. If a weapon or magic schtick has a range, it is still not considered a ranged attack when used at range 0, so you still get the choice between attack and defense.

If you attack a player however, you must always attack.

[Melange]

The rules state that you are attacking if:
-you havent moved yet
-you are attacking a player
-you killed a monster and wish to continue you may choose to attack

All other times you are defending

It's right there on the back of the rules card. Thus if you are getting into combat with a monster when you start in the room, the first scenario is true and you're attacking

NOTE: If you want to start a battle by defending againt a monster in your room... you CAN use the Screw This! Card "Surprise" at the beginning of your turn so you are now on the defense... (I Think)

[Arcade]

Well, pinch my cheek and call me Susan. Here we've been playing that all wrong, but it's spelt out clearly enough. Thanks.

[apegamer]

I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.
Sorry, been VERY busy. I'll look at this thread tonight and get you an answer.

I read it quickly and my quick, unthought-out answer after probably not understanding the original question is that a good defense for a ranged shtick is good for PvP. But let me read it closer tonight.

[lokistang]

I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?

[Arcade]

I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?

That is how loot works. You have to realize though that getting all of that loot back is pretty tough and likely not worth the big bonus you are getting in return. Maybe if you are fighting Xykon, but that's about it.

[Amon Star]

This isn't true. When you initiate an attack on a monster in the same square, you can choose to attack or defend. If a weapon or magic schtick has a range, it is still not considered a ranged attack when used at range 0, so you still get the choice between attack and defense.

If you attack a player however, you must always attack.


The rules state that you are attacking if:
-you havent moved yet
-you are attacking a player
-you killed a monster and wish to continue you may choose to attack

All other times you are defending

It's right there on the back of the rules card. Thus if you are getting into combat with a monster when you start in the room, the first scenario is true and you're attacking

NOTE: If you want to start a battle by defending againt a monster in your room... you CAN use the Screw This! Card "Surprise" at the beginning of your turn so you are now on the defense... (I Think)


Well, pinch my cheek and call me Susan. Here we've been playing that all wrong, but it's spelt out clearly enough. Thanks.

Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, :elan:'s battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.

[lokistang]

That is how loot works. You have to realize though that getting all of that loot back is pretty tough and likely not worth the big bonus you are getting in return. Maybe if you are fighting Xykon, but that's about it.

thank you for the answer, rules where a little unclear the way i read them

[apegamer]

I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.
It's likely that I'm just being dense, but I don't understand the question. Are you asking why the bonuses don't seem to fit thematically?

[apegamer]

Back on page 4 The Giant says the opposite.



Consensus?


He's right - the 5th bullet under Area Effect Shticks on page 18 clarifies that the stack can be affected, even if the monster itself cannot. Note that Xykon would still count in the number of monsters affected by the Area Effect shtick (if it was V's Fireball instead of Durkon's Turn Undead, for instance.)

I've edited my response below. I need to start carrying a copy of the rules with me - or stop answering questions unless the rules are in front of me.

[apegamer]

Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, :elan:'s battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.

Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.

[Amon Star]

Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.

Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.

[apegamer]

Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.

To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking.

After the first monster, you can decide whether to attack or defend additional monsters in the room. If you did an attack into another room with a ranged schtick, you CANNOT attack additional monsters.

[Theli]

Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.

[apegamer]

Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.

You cannot move and make a ranged attack. This is specifically stated in the third bullet under Ranged Attack on page 12. The example on that page shows Haley moving and then attacking Belkar, who's in the same room as her after the movement. In this case she's using a ranged shtick, but it's not a ranged attack, since it's at range 0. In fact, this example specifically points out that Haley cannot attack the creatures at range, because she moved.

[Theli]

Oh, right. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Thanks.

[Amon Star]

To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking. *Snip*

Hmm, my group has been doing that one wrong. Thanks.

[Mystweaver]

Question (only played once and couldnt find a clarification)

If all Battle Deck cards are in play, in hand or discarded.... what then happens? No new monsters? or is the discard pile reshuffled and put back into play as the battle deck?

[The Giant]

Something about Haley has been bugging me.... Her Longbow and Sneak Attack seem backwards. Her Longbow increases her defense and range, and her sneak attack increases her Attack at range 0. This seems counter intuitive, since you cannot make ranged defenses (unless against the Surprise Screw This card),

You still can (and often do) use a shtick with Range at Range 0 to Defend against a monster whose room you just entered. If Haley walks into an empty room and someone plays a Black Dragon, she is required to use Defense to fight it, so having a higher Defense on her Longbow is still very helpful.

The increase in Range, however, is not intended to necessarily be used directly in conjunction with the increase in Defense. Having a second Longbow card thus helps you out when you are defending (by increasing the Defense) OR when you are making a ranged attack (by increasing the Range), and also helps doubly in the rare instance of having to make a ranged defense (such as against another player or against the Surprise! card). It's not counter-intuitive so much as it is multi-functional.


and you really don't want to attack from melee with Haley, the whole point of her is attacking from range...(SNIP) This just seems to make more sense considering how her moves are used and how she is expected to be played...

Your mistake is that you are assuming you know how she is meant to be played, and then being confused when the cards don't work out that way. Your fundamental assumption, however, is not necessarily correct. Attacking from melee is, in fact, a much stronger option for Haley much of the time, especially if she has multiple Sneak Attacks in play, because she gets to recover Loot afterwards. Only Vaarsuvius is actually (almost) always stronger in a Ranged Attack (largely because of the Area Effect rules and the 1-Wound penalty for Fireballing in the same room).

[The Giant]

I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?

This is correct, but as mentioned, it's a very poor strategy unless you are fighting Xykon himself. (And even then, you might end up losing the game if you give away all your Loot.)

[talonos]

Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

[B][ ][ ][H]

I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

So, what happens?

Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

- Too little too late. No change in combat.
- Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.

[Totally Guy]

It's the fact that the boost affecting range is essential for the attack to go ahead that makes this an issue. Without the boost the attack seems to be invalidated.

When we play Dun Dun DUN we choose it to flip a shtick that has already been selected (as we don't generally give a chance to respond phase a la Magic the Gathering as it isn't needed often enough). Then the player chooses another shtick.

Going with that interpretation and then the rules it goes like this.

As Talonos stated it goes different was depending on the chain that logic follows.
"I attack Haley with twin daggers of doom!" as Phase 1 you identify shtick you're using and declare the target at phase one of battling.
Dun Dun DUN!
If Belkar cannot choose another shtick with adequate range he then has to battle shtickless (as the scenario where someone plays a Surprise! card on a monster that goes on to perform a range attack).
If he can he should switch to another schtick like verbal abuse.
The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out. And you can't select a Hide shtick either as you are the attacker.

versus
"I declare a ranged attack phase anybody want to respond?"
"Yes, I Dun Dun DUN! your twin daggers of doom"
"Well I verbal abuse a nearby Elan."
Which I don't think is right as attacking makes both the shtick and target known at the start of the battle.

Hard question.

[The Giant]

Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

[B][ ][ ][H]

I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

So, what happens?

Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

- Too little too late. No change in combat.
- Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
- Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.

The key piece of evidence is on Page 12, second column, second paragraph. It reads:


You must select a shtick that has Range equal to or greater to the Range between you and your foe you are Attacking. If you have no such shtick, you may not make a Ranged Attack at all.

At all. Meaning that once you no longer have the capacity to Attack Haley at that Range, you can not initiate a Ranged Attack, and therefore, there is no battle happening at all. If you DO have another shtick with Range, then you must use that other shtick, because you're only "off the hook" for the Ranged Attack if you have "no such shtick".

There seems to be a misinterpretation in your group about what happens when someone flips your battle shtick. You may immediately select another available battle shtick, even though you're technically past Phase One. Only if you have no other battle shticks must you battle with no shtick. When someone flips the Battle Shtick you are using, it essentially resets the battle to Phase One while you select another shtick.

So, in this situation, Elan would flip one of your Leaping Attacks. Since your Twin Daggers of Doom no longer has sufficient Range to reach Haley, you must choose another shtick immediately. You must choose Verbal Abuse, and proceed, because you're not allowed to voluntarily cancel the battle if you have a means of continuing it. If you did NOT have Verbal Abuse, flipping your Leaping Attack would mean that you could not initiate a Ranged Attack, and the battle would stop there because the specific rule about Ranged Attacks demands that it stop there. You couldn't switch your battle to Elan or someone else, though, you would just be out of luck.

Note also that this only applies to Ranged Attacks. If someone flipped Haley's Longbow in the same scenario and she had no other battle shticks, she'd be screwed and have to battle with no shtick.

[apegamer]

Hard question.

Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.

[The Giant]

The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out.

This is absolutely wrong. "Players seeing the declaration" is no standard in these rules; if the attack is disallowed by the rules, then it doesn't happen. You can't voluntarily call off the battle because someone flipped your card, but if them flipping your card makes the battle actually by-the-rules illegal, then the battle doesn't happen.

And there is no twisted logic that says that it has to happen or else the Dun Dun DUN! wouldn't have been played; the card was the CAUSE of the battle not happening in the first place. If a card negates a battle, then the battle is negated, period. This isn't a time travel paradox, it's a board game.

[The Giant]

Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.

Heh, looks like I jumped in before you, sorry.

[SKarious]

Okay, not a rules question exactly, but what use is V's "Buff spell" shtick? Seems like you can only use it on another player, only when aiding them and you don't even get anything in return.
Any strategies for using this un-V-like extra effort?

[apegamer]

Okay, not a rules question exactly, but what use is V's "Buff spell" shtick? Seems like you can only use it on another player, only when aiding them and you don't even get anything in return.
Any strategies for using this un-V-like extra effort?

It's Karma-riffic! Really - there are things in the game that don't directly benefit you. Plus, I don't think it's quite right to say that V doesn't perform selfless acts for the good of the party.

[SKarious]

Oh, thank you. I get it now.
Increasing goodwill between the players is always good. Especially for V.
Speaking of V, another question about area attacks: do I get to apply my bonuses vs ALL types of creatures caught in the blast?

example: I'm fireballing a room with an undead and a dragon, suppose the undead is "on top" and has a higher defese, so he's defending.
1) If I have the "cleverness" loot (+2 vs. dragons), do I add it to my roll?
2) How about if I also have a "magical garlic press" (+2 vs. undead) do I add +2? +4?

[apegamer]

Oh, thank you. I get it now.
Increasing goodwill between the players is always good. Especially for V.
Speaking of V, another question about area attacks: do I get to apply my bonuses vs ALL types of creatures caught in the blast?

example: I'm fireballing a room with an undead and a dragon, suppose the undead is "on top" and has a higher defese, so he's defending.
1) If I have the "cleverness" loot (+2 vs. dragons), do I add it to my roll?
2) How about if I also have a "magical garlic press" (+2 vs. undead) do I add +2? +4?

This is actually addressed in the FAQ. Okay, I need to post the latest version of the FAQ, but here's the clip...

Q: If I battle with an Area Effect shtick against a group of monsters
containing more than one monster type, and I have a shtick that
provides a bonus to my Attack for monsters of one of those types,
can I add that bonus to my battle roll?
A: Yes. For example, if you use Fireball to Attack a Dragon and a Goblin
while you have a Loot that provides +2 Attack against Goblins, you
add +2 to your Attack Roll.

So you'd get the +4 to your roll with both your bonuses.

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

You may immediately select another available battle shtick, even though you're technically past Phase One. Only if you have no other battle shticks must you battle with no shtick.

How can you have a shtickless ranged attack? What is the range on a shtickless range attack?

I would think, once the Dun dun DUN! prevented the leaping attack, if you could not fall back on another ranged shtick (i.e., Verbal Abuse), then you simply don't attack, and your turn is wasted (by the effective application of a Screw This! card).

[Totally Guy]

Haley's Disarm trap shtick, is it aided by other bits that help against traps such as "the stick" and the good reflexes shtick?

[prj]

I have a couple of questions about the Safe Haven room.

Is the Safe Haven immune from starting new battles every time someone enters it (and no players or monsters are present), or only when it is first discovered?
After you discover the Safe Haven, can you go on to discover another new room on the same turn? The exploration rules on page 8 say no, but the Endgame example on page 28 says yes.

[apegamer]

Haley's Disarm trap shtick, is it aided by other bits that help against traps such as "the stick" and the good reflexes shtick?

If you find other bonuses that aid in Disarm then they'd add to the +4 bonus that Haley gets with Disarm Trap. Good Reflexes adds to the Evade, not the Disarm, and so wouldn't count.

[apegamer]

I have a couple of questions about the Safe Haven room.

Is the Safe Haven immune from starting new battles every time someone enters it (and no players or monsters are present), or only when it is first discovered?
After you discover the Safe Haven, can you go on to discover another new room on the same turn? The exploration rules on page 8 say no, but the Endgame example on page 28 says yes.


Battles are never triggered in the Safe Haven - no matter how many times you go back to rest.

The example on page 28 is incorrect. Your stop movement when you enter a new room.

[mcnathan80]

I have a silly rules question.... well two silly rules questions.
1. What happens when you use PPI on a monster, but there are no adjacent explored rooms (i.e. the first room on the first floor)?
2. Can you use "scream like a girl" on yourself in battle to assist yourself?

[prj]

Since Swipe doesn't move the top Monster, you can't get to the lower Monsters, and you can't battle the same Monster twice.


Why can't you battle the same monster twice? (Well, I guess it's because you say so :smallwink: , but is that spelled out in the rules anywhere?) Does this also mean that using Turn Undead or Poorly Planned Illusion against Xykon can only weaken Xykon for the next player, and that the player using this shtick won't have a shot at defeating Xykon in a second battle on the same turn? (Likewise for Poorly Planned Illusion in any other battle, if Elan happens to choose not to move the top monster.)

Also, can Roy use Charge when entering an unexplored space, or only when entering a pre-existing empty room?

[SKarious]

I have a silly rules question.... well two silly rules questions.
1. What happens when you use PPI on a monster, but there are no adjacent explored rooms (i.e. the first room on the first floor)?
2. Can you use "scream like a girl" on yourself in battle to assist yourself?

As I see it:

1) Very unlikely to happen. But even if it does, I think the card says you may move a monster, not that you must move it. So ,You can decide the monster stays, and you still "won" the battle.

2) "Scream" says "assist", and you can't assist yourself in battle so no.
(of course you can use it on another player and choose yourself as the helper)


Also, can Roy use Charge when entering an unexplored space, or only when entering a pre-existing empty room?

Yes, definitely. As soon as you move explore the room and place a card, it's considered an "empty room", because no monsters were in it.
I believe there's even an example of this situation in the rulebook, where Roy reveals Xykon and uses Charge to finish the battle before Belkar gets the chance.

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

Very unlikely to happen. But even if it does, I think the card says you may move a monster, not that you must move it. So ,You can decide the monster stays, and you still "won" the battle.

You can also move monsters up and down stairs, so there will always be at least one previously explored room, either directly adjacent or via a stairway.

[CNukemR]

Generally Shticks fall into 2 categories, Battle Shticks, and everything else.

Some of those are constant passive effects, some are flipping cards that can do things.

Generally speaking, for those non-battle flipping shticks when can they be used.
This was partly covered in regards to Durkon's healing (whenever). But Roy's Party Leader and Haley's Secon in Command have been errata-ed to be usable only at the beginning of their turn (balance issues). Is it safe to assume the rest of the shticks are whenever effects?

Similarly, when can items be discarded. Some get shticks, some unflip shticks, some heal, but I couldn't find anything that said when you could actually discard them.

Thanks,
Craig

[prj]

Roy's Great Cleavage says it increases his attack/defense for each monster that is defeated and saved on the same turn - is this meant to exclude monsters like the Cowardly Kobold that have no X's, and so aren't saved?

[apegamer]

Roy's Great Cleavage says it increases his attack/defense for each monster that is defeated and saved on the same turn - is this meant to exclude monsters like the Cowardly Kobold that have no X's, and so aren't saved?

Yes, it is meant to exclude these.

[mmm]

The other day we ran into a situation: Durkon ended his turn (moved, battled, exchange schticks, etc) but never announced "I am done". Roy immediately played "Internal monologue" on Haley. But Haley argued that Durkon hadn't "officially" ended his turn and that he was actually waiting for Durkon to finish to play "Surprise!". And here is where the argument started. Is it legal for Haley to play "Surprise!" after "Internal monologue" has been played on her??

-Haley argues that there is a "start of turn phase" and that since Durkon hadn't explicitly said "I am done", she didn't consider her turn started. And that it would be unfair to lose the opportunity to play "surprise!" just because Roy was "faster".
-Durkon agrees that it was evident that his turn was over so it was already Haley's turn. But he also thinks that it is ok for Haley to play "Surprise!" even when "internal monologue " was played on her.
-Roy argues that since he played "internal monologue" on Haley, Haley's turn was over and therefore it wouldn't be legal for her to play "Surprise!".

What would be the right course of action in this case?
Thank you

[Kiero]

I think that one is literally as simple as whoever got there first.

[apegamer]

The other day we ran into a situation: Durkon ended his turn (moved, battled, exchange schticks, etc) but never announced "I am done". Roy immediately played "Internal monologue" on Haley. But Haley argued that Durkon hadn't "officially" ended his turn and that he was actually waiting for Durkon to finish to play "Surprise!". And here is where the argument started. Is it legal for Haley to play "Surprise!" after "Internal monologue" has been played on her??

-Haley argues that there is a "start of turn phase" and that since Durkon hadn't explicitly said "I am done", she didn't consider her turn started. And that it would be unfair to lose the opportunity to play "surprise!" just because Roy was "faster".
-Durkon agrees that it was evident that his turn was over so it was already Haley's turn. But he also thinks that it is ok for Haley to play "Surprise!" even when "internal monologue " was played on her.
-Roy argues that since he played "internal monologue" on Haley, Haley's turn was over and therefore it wouldn't be legal for her to play "Surprise!".

What would be the right course of action in this case?
Thank you

The problem here isn't that it was ambiguous when the beginning of Haley's turn is. Even if Durkon would have announced that his turn was over, then it would have been possible for Roy and Haley to play cards to play cards simultaneously at the start of Haley's turn, which would lead to the same problem.

In cases where 2 or more Screw This! cards that can be played at the same time (i.e "at the start of a turn") then all effects are resolved, in order, starting with the active player.

So, Haley's Surprise would go off and then Internal Monologue would take effect.

If someone plays more than one card, then all of those cards are resolved in the order chosen by the person playing the cards.

Note that this answer may change depending on the results of consultation with Rich and Craig.

[jamesgrasso]

Roy Cleave Schtick. Can Roy use his Great sword to kill the first monster on the stack and then switch to his magic schtick and still use his cleave schtick to get the bonuses on subsequent monsters in the stack?

[apegamer]

Roy Cleave Schtick. Can Roy use his Great sword to kill the first monster on the stack and then switch to his magic schtick and still use his cleave schtick to get the bonuses on subsequent monsters in the stack?

The intent is for Great Cleavage to only be used with Greenhilt Sword. This also means that if Roy somehow manages to defeat a monster with a magic shtick that it wouldn't add to the Great Cleavage bonus.

[Moebius]

The intent is for Great Cleavage to only be used with Greenhilt Sword. This also means that if Roy somehow manages to defeat a monster with a magic shtick that it wouldn't add to the Great Cleavage bonus.

Really? We haven't played it that way... it's just funny to think of Roy cleaving with a badger.

An unrelated question: If you make a Ranged Attack on another player, and win, do you get to take a Loot from them? (And do they get one of yours if you lose?) The FAQ seems to indicate that you have to be at Range 0, but I can't find anything saying that in the rulebook. They're not really 'dropping' the loot the way a monster would, are they?

[Alertmav101]

To Whom it may concern:

I have a question and it might be simple to answer but me and my brothers play order of the stick board game and came accross a problem. Last night we were playing and my brother rested and picked up 2 loot cards but one was a trap and he lost to the trap and it said that he lost a turn. Play resumed and it came to his turn to lose a turn but does that mean he is still sleeping or just awake but can't do anything because I wanted to attack but we didn't know if he still got penalized for being asleep. Thank you for the responce.

[irlpotato]

Hmmm. this is really getting into houserule/personal preference for me, but how about this:

on page 20 of the rulebook, under benefits of resting it says :

"at the start of your next turn, you are done resting. Stand your Character Move Token back up. Heal 1 Wound and unflip all your flipped shticks"

he's resting until its his turn starts. if he misses a turn, his turn doesnt start: he's still resting until it comes around again.

[SKarious]

Anyhoo, I'm not sure if it matters, as the rules say you get the -4 for both resting and losing a turn (for ANY reason).

[Arcade]

An unrelated question: If you make a Ranged Attack on another player, and win, do you get to take a Loot from them? (And do they get one of yours if you lose?) The FAQ seems to indicate that you have to be at Range 0, but I can't find anything saying that in the rulebook. They're not really 'dropping' the loot the way a monster would, are they?

On page 25, there's a section "Stealing Equipped Loot from Other Players". This states that you can only do this at range 0.

[SKarious]

Hmm, just as a side note, Belkar's Leaping Attack lets you steal loot, since you finish the attack at range 0.

[Moebius]

On page 25, there's a section "Stealing Equipped Loot from Other Players". This states that you can only do this at range 0.

*goes to check*
Aha! Thanks. I somehow missed that on several readthroughs.

Speaking of Ranged Attacks.... from the FAQ:

Q: What happens if I lose a Ranged Attack against a monster with
Bloodlust and no Range (or insufficient Range to reach the room I’m
making my Ranged Attack from)?
A: The battle is a draw. The rules for Ranged Attacks state that a monster
cannot win a battle for which they have insufficient Range and that
any result that would lead to a win (in this case, the presence of the
Bloodlust ability) should be considered a draw instead.

On page 18 of the rulebook, under Area Effect Shticks:

Use any and all abilities possessed by the Monsters that affect the entire battle, including Bloodlust, Multiattack, or Outsmart.

And then, in the example of a (Ranged) Area Effect , V is Fireballing some Snake Dragons (Bloodlust, but Range 0), and a Thing with the Eyes (Range 6).
(s)He rolls a draw, and apparently the Bloodlust makes it a loss.

So, one monster's Range makes another monster's Bloodlust work? And, just to clarify, if the Thing hadn't had sufficient Range to reach V, the Bloodlust would not have applied?

[Tremas]

I know that you need to draw a new Battle Hand if it's your turn to add a monster to the Battle Stack and you can't. And I know that in this case, you draw your 7 new cards and are skipped for that one-time monster selection.

But what happens when you empty your Battle Hand and you don't need to provide a monster? Let's say your Battle Hand only has 2 cards - and they're both Screw This cards. And - either during your turn or during another player's turn - you play both Screw This cards. You have emptied your Battle Hand, but you have not been called on to play a monster.

What do you do? I see three possible choices for the rules.


If you emptied your Battle Hand during your turn (by playing Screw This cards), then you immediately draw a new Battle Hand (so you can immediately have more Screw This cards). If you emptied your Battle Hand (by playing Screw This cards) on someone else's turn, then you wait until your turn to draw a new Battle Hand. If you need to play a monster before your turn arrives, then you draw your new Battle Hand as usual when you need to provide a monster - and are skipped for that one-time monster selection.
If you emptied your Battle Hand (by playing Screw This cards), it doesn't matter if it's your turn or not. You immediately draw a new Battle Hand (so you can immediately have more Screw This cards, because the game is always funner the more Screw This cards are played :smallsmile: ).
If you emptied your Battle Hand (by playing Screw This cards), it doesn't matter if it's your turn or not. You must wait until you are called upon to play a monster before you draw a new Battle Hand (and you're skipped for that one-time monster selection).


I would think the rules imply choice 3, but they don't spell it out. They do spell out what happens if you can't provide a monster when required (draw a new Battle Hand and be skipped), but they don't speak to drawing or not drawing a new Battle Hand when emptying your hand by playing Screw This cards. (At least, I didn't hear them speak to that point - but my hearing's not the greatest...)

I would prefer Choice 2 - because it raises the chance of playing more Screw This cards, which I think makes the game funner. Sometimes even funnest.

Survey says?

[donkyhotay]

Per the rules you only draw cards when you should lay down a monster. Therefore you remain cardless until the next time you are called to play a monster (option 3 as you previously said). There are few exceptions to this, for example Durkon has the "W.W.T.D" card that allows him to draw cards from the battle deck, however except for the times that the rules explicitely state you can draw you do not draw from the battle deck.

[Tremas]

Fearless Leader shtick -


You may not refuse any request from Order of the Stick players for assistance. You may flip this card voluntarily at any time to cancel all of its effects

So, which sentence has precedence? The "you may not refuse" or the "you may flip ... at any time"? Let's say Belkar asks Roy for assistance in a battle. Roy can not refuse, right? Or can Roy say - nahhh, I'm still ticked off at Belkar for the last two times he double-crossed V (man, Roy can carry a grudge against me - and for something that didn't even involve him!) - so Roy doesn't want to help Belkar, so Roy decides to voluntarily flip his Fearless Leader shtick card now, so that Roy can refuse to assist Belkar. I think Roy is not following the shtick because the shtick says "you may not refuse". Roy thinks it's fine to refuse to help Belkar since Roy can flip his shtick "at any time".

Does Roy have to assist Belkar? Or can Roy decide to hold a grudge and refuse to help Belkar by flipping his Fearless Leader shtick whenever Belkar asks for assistance?

Creative Motivation shtick -

Can you use this shtick multiple times to get multiple assist bonuses from one player in the same battle? From multiple players in the same battle?

Can you use this shtick to get help from an NPC player? Maybe only if you're discarding loot that only other NPC players and/or yourself drool over?

Heck - assuming both Belkar and Durkon are playing - can Roy discard loot that Belkar drools over in order for Roy to get assistance from Durkon? It seems wrong for Roy to be able to discard loot that another player drools over (that's why this sort of loot can not be offered to an NPC), but if Roy can't discard loot that other players drool over, then this shtick seems pretty worthless.


You may discard one card from your Loot Stash ... in order to ask ... for assistance ...

What if Roy discards one loot card, asks Belkar for help, and Belkar says "Fight your own fight meat shield - you didn't help me - I ain't helping you." Does Roy still lose the one loot Roy discarded? Or does Roy get the loot back because Belkar refused to help? I think Roy loses the loot card even though Belkar refused to assist. The card says Roy discards the loot in order to ask for assistance. The card didn't promise whether the answer would be yes or no when Roy asks.

Meat Shield shtick


Whenever you would suffer a Wound as a result of battle, you may flip this card to prevent the Wound. You still suffer any other results, if there are any, ...

What if the battle would cause Roy to suffer two or more Wounds? Does flipping this shtick only save Roy from one Wound or from all Wounds in that battle? I think it's one Wound since the card talks about "a Wound" and "the Wound". I think the additional Wounds are "other results", but I know I could be wrong (and I may be a bit prejudiced against Roy because he wouldn't help Belkar *and* he had the gall to attack Belkar on the way out of our dungeon when it was collapsing...).

[donkyhotay]

FEARLESS LEADER: Events happen in the order they are stated so once someone requests roy for help he MUST help them. He can flip it over but he was already asked and therefore can not refuse to help. Now if someone is thinking about asking roy for help and he turns it over before they actually ask then he is safe.

MEAT SHIELD: It only prevents the one wound. The extra wounds are considered part of the "extra effects". This is true for the other characters' variations on preventing wounds as well.

[Ragnar Iceblood]

I dont understand the fireball at all.

Do you attack each monster in turn? e.g. perform a normal attack vs each of them, that is throwing a dice and see if it beats its defence? So for instance if you can attack 4 monsters, you throw 4 attack dices.

or do you perform ONE attack vs all of them, e.g. throw the attack dice one time and check vs each of the monsters defence to see if they die.

And do the monsters defend back, if they have a range > 0 ?


Another question; The rules dosn't explain what happens to discarded cards, nor what happens when you dont have any more battledeck or loot cards to draw. We have assumed its suffle the discarded piles, and use those.

[Moebius]

More questions about Area Effect Shticks...

Can you Defend against multiple monsters with Turn Undead or Poorly-Planned Illusion? The only other AES (so far), Fireball, has N/A for Defense, but those two have a value. Turn Undead is actually better in Defense than Attack.

Also, I know you can't keep fighting after you use an AES, even at Range 0. But can you use 'regular' shticks to kill the top monster(s) in a stack, one at a time, and then 'finish off' the stack with an AES?

[donkyhotay]

Since PPI (poorly planned illusion) and turn undead have defense stats they can be used to defend with. Fireball on the other hand can not be used defensively. I personally don't like the rules on AoE spells but here is what the rules say. When you use an AoE spell you first determine which monsters will be hit with it by finding how many monsters can be hit by it and then counting down from the top of the deck. Monsters immune to the attack (such as being enchanted) are still technically targeted this way. Find the monster with the highest defense value (if your attacking) or highest attack value (if your defending) and roll against this monster. If you win then it and all other targeted monsters are affected (unless immune at which point nothing happens). If you lose against the strongest monster then you lose entirely and the AoE does nothing (even if that roll theoretically would have killed something else). Per the rules once an AoE shtick has been used you may not battle additional monsters. There is nothing preventing you from battling some monsters first before using the AoE. This actually is a good way to use elan in a large battle. Kill a monster or two, use PPI to clear the others out of the room and then pick up the loot the first monsters dropped. Even though the monsters don't die, using PPI counts as "clearing the room" so you get to pick up two loot (this use of PPI is mentioned in the FAQ).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9675
If an AoE schtick fails and a monster has sufficient range to hit the person that used the AoE then yes they do "counterattack" and that person loses 1 wound per targeted monster with sufficient range. If the player is out of range or hits the monsters successfully this is irrelevant.

[Theli]

If an AoE schtick fails and a monster has sufficient range to hit the person that used the AoE then yes they do "counterattack" and that person loses 1 wound per targeted monster with sufficient range. If the player is out of range or hits the monsters successfully this is irrelevant.

I don't believe this is correct. My understanding is that you only take damage if at least one target has range to hit you, and then if they have other effects then they apply. You then just take one wound unless there is a deadly effect involved.

Of course, that begs the question about what happens if one of the targets you attack from range has hide... Do all the monsters then hide even if another one with range normally doesn't?

Hope the expansion helps clear up this nonsense. :p

[donkyhotay]

Thank you for correcting me Thelis, I was partially wrong. If a monster has sufficient range to reach you only take 1 wound, not 1 wound per monster (this is stated specifically in the rules). However, all monsters with special abilities (such as deadly, spellcaster, thief) that have sufficient range apply those. So you CAN take more then 1 wound but only if the monsters have the deadly ability. Rules also state that these stack so for example if you fight 2 monsters, both with sufficient range and both having deadly you would take 3 wounds. 1 for normally losing, and then 1 for each 'deadly' ability the monsters have. Likewise it is possible to be double-paralyzed and miss multiple turns as well.

[Mravac Kid]

I have one extremely basic question, and it's one I can't for the life of me find in the rules (I may have flipped through the book too many times so everything's become hazy...)

I enter a room, and a fight starts. The monster attacks...
now there's 3 options:
1. I defend successfully, defeat the monster, and can choose whether to fight the next one.
2. it's a draw.
3. I lose, and can't do anything else.

The question on everyone's minds (at least those of my friends and me) is, in which circumstances (if ever) can I just walk out of that room? (This one's really important to us, as we've often found ourselves fighting unbeatable monsters)
If I win, can I move past that room into the next unexplored one, or back into a previously explored one?
If I draw, can I withdraw, or do I have to fight the monster again?
If I lose, what happens next? Can I retreat? Flee?

next question: In yesterday's game, the first room we entered on the 3rd floor was "employee exit", which immediately opens a new room, and as we played the shortest game, that was Xykon's floor. What happens if a player gets defeated down there? How does he get out, if he can't flee through the exit?

[SKarious]

I have one extremely basic question, and it's one I can't for the life of me find in the rules (I may have flipped through the book too many times so everything's become hazy...)

I enter a room, and a fight starts. The monster attacks...
now there's 3 options:
1. I defend successfully, defeat the monster, and can choose whether to fight the next one.
2. it's a draw.
3. I lose, and can't do anything else.

The question on everyone's minds (at least those of my friends and me) is, in which circumstances (if ever) can I just walk out of that room? (This one's really important to us, as we've often found ourselves fighting unbeatable monsters)
If I win, can I move past that room into the next unexplored one, or back into a previously explored one?
If I draw, can I withdraw, or do I have to fight the monster again?
If I lose, what happens next? Can I retreat? Flee?

next question: In yesterday's game, the first room we entered on the 3rd floor was "employee exit", which immediately opens a new room, and as we played the shortest game, that was Xykon's floor. What happens if a player gets defeated down there? How does he get out, if he can't flee through the exit?

I'll help you there:
Monsters only appear when you open a new unexplored room, or when you stop in an empty room. (room without other monsters and/or players. loot is allowed).
In both cases, your movement ends for this turn. You can't move after defending/attacking.

During your movement, you can pass rooms with monsters and you don't have to fight them. (unless someone plays "failed spot check" on you, then you stop and fight). When you open a new room, you have to stop and fight.

About "emergency exit" - you can use it to escape while the dungeon is collapsing, check the FAQ here.
But this room could never be in Xykon's lair: even on the shortest game the lair is on level 4, and the lair is made up from those special nifty black "Xykon's Lair" cards. (Check the "game setup" and "endgame" sections on how to prepare the lair).

Hope that helped.

[Mravac Kid]

I'll help you there:
Monsters only appear when you open a new unexplored room, or when you stop in an empty room. (room without other monsters and/or players. loot is allowed).
In both cases, your movement ends for this turn. You can't move after defending/attacking.

During your movement, you can pass rooms with monsters and you don't have to fight them. (unless someone plays "failed spot check" on you, then you stop and fight). When you open a new room, you have to stop and fight.
I know that, but what about when I'm already in a fight? Example: I'm on the second floor, fighting a Black Dragon and a Goblin. The Dragon kicks my butt, thanks to his attack I can't even approach, and my turn ends. On the next turn, do I have to fight the Dragon again (only to get my butt kicked again, and so on until I get killed and have to run back to the entrance), or can I move away and leave the two in the room?


About "emergency exit" - you can use it to escape while the dungeon is collapsing, check the FAQ here.
But this room could never be in Xykon's lair: even on the shortest game the lair is on level 4, and the lair is made up from those special nifty black "Xykon's Lair" cards. (Check the "game setup" and "endgame" sections on how to prepare the lair).

Hope that helped.

I misspoke in that sentence. Actually, the "employee exit" turned up on the 3rd floor, and the description says it has a ladder going down (which would mean to Xykon's floor). So how does that work?
And while we're at it: there can be only one found staircase, and there's the "employee exit", and I read in this thread there's another card giving a staircase. So there can be 3 staircases on the same floor? What happens if it's the last floor before Xykon?

[SKarious]

I know that, but what about when I'm already in a fight? Example: I'm on the second floor, fighting a Black Dragon and a Goblin. The Dragon kicks my butt, thanks to his attack I can't even approach, and my turn ends. On the next turn, do I have to fight the Dragon again (only to get my butt kicked again, and so on until I get killed and have to run back to the entrance), or can I move away and leave the two in the room?

Yes, on your next turn you can exit the room and explore another. You don't have to fight the dragon again.



I misspoke in that sentence. Actually, the "employee exit" turned up on the 3rd floor, and the description says it has a ladder going down (which would mean to Xykon's floor). So how does that work?
And while we're at it: there can be only one found staircase, and there's the "employee exit", and I read in this thread there's another card giving a staircase. So there can be 3 staircases on the same floor? What happens if it's the last floor before Xykon?

There's a section in the FAQ about multiple staircases. Says it's rare but possible. You can descend both staircases and get 2 sub-level which may or may not connect. There is still an overall "room limit" for the floor - if you run out of your pre-set Lair cards, you don't get any more.

[Mravac Kid]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

I remembered another question: If I get help from other players for the top monster and win, then decide to fight the next one, does the help still stay, or do I have to ask again?

[apegamer]

If I get help from other players for the top monster and win, then decide to fight the next one, does the help still stay, or do I have to ask again?

The help does not stay - you must ask anew for each battle.

[Hebelio]

If some one plays the Screw This card that breaks a weapon shtick on the Greenhilt sword, then roy would not be able to benefit from the great cleave shtick rigth...that shtick only works with the green hilt sword?

[donkyhotay]

Yes, great cleave only works on the greenhilt sword.

[The Giant]

Fearless Leader shtick -

So, which sentence has precedence? The "you may not refuse" or the "you may flip ... at any time"? Let's say Belkar asks Roy for assistance in a battle. Roy can not refuse, right? Or can Roy say - nahhh, I'm still ticked off at Belkar for the last two times he double-crossed V (man, Roy can carry a grudge against me - and for something that didn't even involve him!) - so Roy doesn't want to help Belkar, so Roy decides to voluntarily flip his Fearless Leader shtick card now, so that Roy can refuse to assist Belkar. I think Roy is not following the shtick because the shtick says "you may not refuse". Roy thinks it's fine to refuse to help Belkar since Roy can flip his shtick "at any time".

Does Roy have to assist Belkar? Or can Roy decide to hold a grudge and refuse to help Belkar by flipping his Fearless Leader shtick whenever Belkar asks for assistance?

Roy is correct. Because he may flip the card at any time, he may even flip it between the time he is asked to assist and the time that he gives his answer. Once the card is flipped, the text regarding not being allowed to refuse is no longer in play, and Roy can do what he wants. The "penalty" here is that now Roy must rest before he can regain the benefit of Fearless Leader--and Roy is not a character who needs to rest very often.


Creative Motivation shtick -

Can you use this shtick multiple times to get multiple assist bonuses from one player in the same battle?

No; one Loot card per player, and only a flat +2 bonus is gained.


From multiple players in the same battle?

Yes.


Can you use this shtick to get help from an NPC player? Maybe only if you're discarding loot that only other NPC players and/or yourself drool over?

No. As per the FAQ, an NPC can't make the decision to accept or not accept anything but the "standard contract" for Loot: "Player gives Loot with Drool Factor X, NPC gives +2X bonus." Anything that deviates from that can't be used with an NPC unless specifically stated so on the card text.


Heck - assuming both Belkar and Durkon are playing - can Roy discard loot that Belkar drools over in order for Roy to get assistance from Durkon?

Yes.


It seems wrong for Roy to be able to discard loot that another player drools over (that's why this sort of loot can not be offered to an NPC), but if Roy can't discard loot that other players drool over, then this shtick seems pretty worthless.

It is fairly powerful, but remember this: If Durkon refuses, Roy has lost that Loot for no gain. In the "standard contract", if the player refuses, the player battling keeps the Loot, no harm, no foul. So Roy is opening himself up to Durkon partly screwing him by refusing. If Roy takes to constantly discarding other people's Loot, he's going to end up with no one accepting his offers anymore, and soon he won't have much of a Loot stash.


What if Roy discards one loot card, asks Belkar for help, and Belkar says "Fight your own fight meat shield - you didn't help me - I ain't helping you." Does Roy still lose the one loot Roy discarded? Or does Roy get the loot back because Belkar refused to help? I think Roy loses the loot card even though Belkar refused to assist. The card says Roy discards the loot in order to ask for assistance. The card didn't promise whether the answer would be yes or no when Roy asks.

Yes, Roy loses the card for no benefit.


Meat Shield shtick

What if the battle would cause Roy to suffer two or more Wounds? Does flipping this shtick only save Roy from one Wound or from all Wounds in that battle? I think it's one Wound since the card talks about "a Wound" and "the Wound". I think the additional Wounds are "other results", but I know I could be wrong (and I may be a bit prejudiced against Roy because he wouldn't help Belkar *and* he had the gall to attack Belkar on the way out of our dungeon when it was collapsing...).

Meat Shield (and cards like it) protect only against the first Wound suffered. Extra Wounds are, indeed, considered an "other result" in this case.


If some one plays the Screw This card that breaks a weapon shtick on the Greenhilt sword, then roy would not be able to benefit from the great cleave shtick rigth...that shtick only works with the green hilt sword?

Correct. Great Cleavage only works with the Greenhilt Sword shtick, so that anythign that denies Roy the usage of the Greenhilt Sword makes Great Cleavage useless. Ignore that! I didn't go and read the Great Cleavage card!

Actual answer: Incorrect. Great Cleavage is NOT like Sneak Attack or Leaping Attack: it does not specify any single Battle Shtick that must be used in order to gain the bonus. If the Greenhilt Sword gets broken, you are free to whip out the Bag of Tricks or your bare hands and keep going.

[The Giant]

I have one extremely basic question, and it's one I can't for the life of me find in the rules (I may have flipped through the book too many times so everything's become hazy...)

I enter a room, and a fight starts. The monster attacks...
now there's 3 options:
1. I defend successfully, defeat the monster, and can choose whether to fight the next one.
2. it's a draw.
3. I lose, and can't do anything else.

The question on everyone's minds (at least those of my friends and me) is, in which circumstances (if ever) can I just walk out of that room? (This one's really important to us, as we've often found ourselves fighting unbeatable monsters)

All of them. The only things that would keep you in that room would be a special effect, such as if the monster that beat you had the Paralyze ability (and even then, you would just lose a turn, not fight the monster again).


If I win, can I move past that room into the next unexplored one, or back into a previously explored one?
If I draw, can I withdraw, or do I have to fight the monster again?
If I lose, what happens next? Can I retreat? Flee?

In all three instances, you may move from that room to any other room on either side, explored or unexplored, unless the room text or some other effect specifically prevents it. Winning or losing a battle does not impede your movement ability in any way.


next question: In yesterday's game, the first room we entered on the 3rd floor was "employee exit", which immediately opens a new room, and as we played the shortest game, that was Xykon's floor. What happens if a player gets defeated down there? How does he get out, if he can't flee through the exit?

Employee Exit creates a set of stairs; these stairs persist for the rest of the game (until the dungeon collapses, at least). Once the Employee Exit stairs go onto the board, however, no one can search for additional stairs while on the 3rd floor, because you are not allowed to search for stairs if there is already a set of stairs leading down--regardless of how those stairs came to be there.

So, to answer your question, he can indeed flee through the stairs created by Employee Exit should he be defeated in Xykon's Lair, as with any other set of stairs.

Also, note that simply because the stairs to Xykon's Lair are created does NOT mean that a player is automatically allowed to use them; each player must still have the required number of Shticks and Loot to enter the lair.

[The Giant]

I dont understand the fireball at all.

Do you attack each monster in turn? e.g. perform a normal attack vs each of them, that is throwing a dice and see if it beats its defence? So for instance if you can attack 4 monsters, you throw 4 attack dices.

or do you perform ONE attack vs all of them, e.g. throw the attack dice one time and check vs each of the monsters defence to see if they die.

Neither. You perform one attack roll, and compare it to the highest Defense value that you targeted. If you beat that, you defeat ALL the Monsters targeted. If you don't beat that, you don't defeat anyone.


And do the monsters defend back, if they have a range > 0 ?

If ANY of the Monsters targeted have Range sufficient to reach you, you lose one Wound should you fail to win (or tie) the battle. In addition, any special effects of any Monsters that you targeted will come into play, such as Deadly or Thief.


Another question; The rules dosn't explain what happens to discarded cards, nor what happens when you dont have any more battledeck or loot cards to draw. We have assumed its suffle the discarded piles, and use those.

Yes; these issues are dealt with in the FAQ.


More questions about Area Effect Shticks...

Can you Defend against multiple monsters with Turn Undead or Poorly-Planned Illusion? The only other AES (so far), Fireball, has N/A for Defense, but those two have a value. Turn Undead is actually better in Defense than Attack.

Yes, you can Defend using an Area Effect Shtick, if the shtick has a value for Defense. This would happen if you walk into a room of Monsters, or if you are attacked at Range by a Monster via the "Ambush!" Screw This! card.


Also, I know you can't keep fighting after you use an AES, even at Range 0. But can you use 'regular' shticks to kill the top monster(s) in a stack, one at a time, and then 'finish off' the stack with an AES?

Yes, if you are battling at Range 0. (You can never "keep fighting" when battling at Range > 0.) Once you use an AES, though, you're done.

[The Giant]

To Whom it may concern:

I have a question and it might be simple to answer but me and my brothers play order of the stick board game and came accross a problem. Last night we were playing and my brother rested and picked up 2 loot cards but one was a trap and he lost to the trap and it said that he lost a turn. Play resumed and it came to his turn to lose a turn but does that mean he is still sleeping or just awake but can't do anything because I wanted to attack but we didn't know if he still got penalized for being asleep. Thank you for the responce.

When it is his turn again, he does not stand up and play immediately passes to the next person. This is his missed turn. When play returns to him again, he stands up and gains the benefit of resting (because he rested before the trap went off). He may then move as normal.

If you attack him at any time when his playing piece is on its side--whether because he is resting or missing a turn--you still get the same +4 Attack.


Q: What happens if I lose a Ranged Attack against a monster with
Bloodlust and no Range (or insufficient Range to reach the room I’m
making my Ranged Attack from)?
A: The battle is a draw. The rules for Ranged Attacks state that a monster
cannot win a battle for which they have insufficient Range and that
any result that would lead to a win (in this case, the presence of the
Bloodlust ability) should be considered a draw instead.

On page 18 of the rulebook, under Area Effect Shticks:

Use any and all abilities possessed by the Monsters that affect the entire battle, including Bloodlust, Multiattack, or Outsmart.

And then, in the example of a (Ranged) Area Effect , V is Fireballing some Snake Dragons (Bloodlust, but Range 0), and a Thing with the Eyes (Range 6).
(s)He rolls a draw, and apparently the Bloodlust makes it a loss.

So, one monster's Range makes another monster's Bloodlust work?

Yes. Think of it as teamwork on the part of the Monsters.


And, just to clarify, if the Thing hadn't had sufficient Range to reach V, the Bloodlust would not have applied?

Yes, if the Thing had not had sufficient Range, then Bloodlust would not have come into play at all. Because the Thing did have the Range, Bloodlust converted the draw into a win for the Monsters.


But what happens when you empty your Battle Hand and you don't need to provide a monster? Let's say your Battle Hand only has 2 cards - and they're both Screw This cards. And - either during your turn or during another player's turn - you play both Screw This cards. You have emptied your Battle Hand, but you have not been called on to play a monster.

What do you do?

This:


* If you emptied your Battle Hand (by playing Screw This cards), it doesn't matter if it's your turn or not. You must wait until you are called upon to play a monster before you draw a new Battle Hand (and you're skipped for that one-time monster selection).

The only time you draw new Battle Hand cards is when you are called on to play a monster and cannot (or when a shtick or Screw This! allows you to, such as Durkon's W.W.T.D? shtick).

[The Giant]

Roy Cleave Schtick. Can Roy use his Great sword to kill the first monster on the stack and then switch to his magic schtick and still use his cleave schtick to get the bonuses on subsequent monsters in the stack?


The intent is for Great Cleavage to only be used with Greenhilt Sword. This also means that if Roy somehow manages to defeat a monster with a magic shtick that it wouldn't add to the Great Cleavage bonus.

Hmmmm...I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you, Kevin. Nothing on the card limits its usage to Greenhilt Sword. Considering that we have many cards that specifically DO limite their usage to one Battle Shtick, I think Roy can cleave with his bare hands if he wants.

Also, I realize this means I have to edit one of my responses above...

[donkyhotay]

In regards to the issue of whether or not roy can use great cleavage with something besides the greenhilt sword, apegamer already ruled previously in this thread that great cleavage only works with the greenhilt sword. This is what I was basing my answer to Hebelios' question on. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2830075&highlight=cleavage#post2830075
Yes by literal interpretation of the rules great cleavage will work with anything however the spirit of the schtick seems like it should only work with the sword (also this helps block the 'invincible roy' scenario that sometimes occurs on large stacks). While I know you are the final word on the rules, for the sake of moderator unity I would ask you discuss this with him and come back with a final answer on this (might be a good idea for the answer to go into the FAQ too since it has come up multiple times).

[PrometheusRex]

A question came up last night regarding the "Ghost of Dorukan" card in the Xykon's Lair deck in conjunction with Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion schtick. The wording on the "Ghost of Dorukan" card specifies that the boon is granted to the player who "kills the last monster in the room." In this case, Elan had killed the first monster he faced out of four in the room with a different battle schtick, but then used Poorly-Planned Illusion to move the rest of the monsters to another room.

While it seems to me to make sense that Elan get the boon, the wording on the card would imply otherwise. Should the card say "defeats" instead of "kills"? Does the Ghost stay put until a new battle in the room is triggered and the new "last" monster in the room is actually killed? Or is there some other interpretation I'm missing? Elan DID kill a monster, but at the time he killed it, it wasn't the last one in the room. The last monster in the room wasn't killed, but moved to a different room. Thanks in advance!

[PMDM]

Beating a card using the illusion is considered "defeating the monster". So yes, winning those battles and revoming the monsters from that particular room should get you the extra shtick.

[PrometheusRex]

Except the Ghost of Dorukan specifically says "kills", NOT "defeats". Hence the conundrum.

[prj]

If I defeat Xykon, can I use him both for drawing schticks and also for his 2 * Level bragging points?

Can I use "I Forgot They Could Do That" to negate a special monster ability that is granted to a monster from a room? For example, a monster in the Earth Dungeon becomes Impervious. Can I use IFTCDT to render the monster non-Impervious? If I can, and if the monster is normally Impervious on its own, do I need two cards to negate the ability from each of two sources, or just one card to negate the one ability?

Even if IFTCDT can be used for room-based abilities such as above, I'd assume that it can only be used to negate abilities that some monsters have naturally and which are included in the list at the end of the rulebook. So it couldn't be used to negate effects on monsters from the Summoning Room or the Employee Lounge, for example. Correct?

[Ellisthion]

Dun dun dun! with Ranged Attacks:

Say I have 2 Leaping Attacks, and try to make a Ranged Attack at Range 2 (my maximum). Then, someone uses Dun dun dun! to flip one of my Leaping Attacks. My range is reduced to 1, and I can no longer reach the foe. What happens?

Come to that, what happens when your only Ranged Shtick is flipped when doing a Ranged Attack?

[apegamer]

If I defeat Xykon, can I use him both for drawing schticks and also for his 2 * Level bragging points?

Yes.


Can I use "I Forgot They Could Do That" to negate a special monster ability that is granted to a monster from a room? For example, a monster in the Earth Dungeon becomes Impervious. Can I use IFTCDT to render the monster non-Impervious?

Yes, the room says that the monster gains the ability, and IFTCDT removes the ability from the monster. If the monster already has the ability, then the room doesn't really give the ability again, so removing it a second time is not necessary.



Even if IFTCDT can be used for room-based abilities such as above, I'd assume that it can only be used to negate abilities that some monsters have naturally and which are included in the list at the end of the rulebook. So it couldn't be used to negate effects on monsters from the Summoning Room or the Employee Lounge, for example. Correct?

Yes, that's right.

[apegamer]

Dun dun dun! with Ranged Attacks:

Say I have 2 Leaping Attacks, and try to make a Ranged Attack at Range 2 (my maximum). Then, someone uses Dun dun dun! to flip one of my Leaping Attacks. My range is reduced to 1, and I can no longer reach the foe. What happens?

Come to that, what happens when your only Ranged Shtick is flipped when doing a Ranged Attack?

In both cases the attack is unsuccessful and your turn is over.

[Rekrah]

Hi.. Great game by the way captures the comic well..

A couple questions that came up...
1: A conformation on if Roy can use great cleave with bag of tricks etc..
2: Can Belkar use halfling rage after the dice is rolled to change a loss into a win?

[apegamer]

Hi.. Great game by the way captures the comic well..

A couple questions that came up...
1: A conformation on if Roy can use great cleave with bag of tricks etc..

Yes. The card doesn't prohibit the use of Great Cleavage with other shticks. We may change this in the future, but right now we don't need another FAQ entry.


2: Can Belkar use halfling rage after the dice is rolled to change a loss into a win?

No, flip it before the dice roll and hope for the best.

Glad you like the game!

[donkyhotay]

Yes. The card doesn't prohibit the use of Great Cleavage with other shticks. We may change this in the future, but right now we don't need another FAQ entry.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Zink]

Some questions.

1) Say that I am standing in a room with a single monster in it and some Loot. Another player plays Surprise! and makes that monster attack me. I win the battle and kill the monster. Do I get to pick up two Loot from the room as a bonus for clearing the last monster inside, or does nothing of the sort happen because it is not my turn? Is the answer any different if I was also the person who played the Surprise! card?

2) Regarding Roy's Fearless Leader: How does the "no refusing" part work when assisting in PvP battles? Assuming both players ask for his assistance, can he choose which one to assist without flipping the Fearless Leader, or must he immediately give assistance to the first player to ask him?

3) The following questions regard both "Creative Motivation" and "Scream Like A Little Girl":

- They cannot be used multiple times for one player, but can they be used combined with normal assistance from the same player? If not, can they be combined with each other? For example, Roy asks Haley for help with some drooled over Loot. He still wants more help, but has no Haley-heads, so he throws a way a Loot to ask Haley for more assistance with Creative Motivation. He also uses SLaLG on her so that he could get even more assistance. Is any of this illegal?

- When they are used, do/can they also trigger other assistance-related Shticks and events (such as Fearless Leader, Bard Song, Buff Spell, Double Cross, No I In Team, Eternal Gratitude)? In the cases of Double Cross and Eternal Gratitude, how is the Loot handled?

- I imagine that those cards still can't allow players to assist both battling players in a PvP battle. Is this correct?

- Regarding only SLaLG, if Roy is one of its targets and doesn't want to assist, then he doesn't need to flip Fearless Leader, since he was not really invited; the card specifies only that he may not refuse requests. Correct?

- Regarding only Creative Motivation, if an initial offer is refused, can Roy try to make another offer to the same player by throwing another card? If a player refused an offer and changed his mind later for some reason (like seeing that Roy is doing well enough without him), can he then choose to accept the offer, against Roy's will? If not, can he do it with Roy's will, without Roy having to throw away another card?

[Phischi]

Apologies for any typos or bad grammar, but English isn't my native language...

Might be a reason why I didn't understand that battle size thing clearly.

Imagine the following situation:
Roy goes into a room at 3rd floor. A new battle is triggered, the battle size is 3, players populate the room with 3 monsters. Unfortunately Roy is not able to kill the first monster, but the two other ones die from his mighty Greenhilt sword.
However, on his next turn Roy decides to leave this room behind and move into a safer area on 2nd floor since he is not experienced enough to battle the remaining monster (in his opinion).
Durkon, closely behind Roy, decides to move into the room Roy was in before. The room still contains 1 monster (the remaining one Roy wasn't able to kill).

Now my question:
Since the room is on 3rd floor, but there is only 1 monster remaining in the room, is this considered as a "new" battle (Durkon came in)? If yes, that would mean the room was populated with another 2 monsters up to battle size 3 again.
Or am I totally wrong and if there is a room with monsters that weren't all killed in an earlier battle, players have to battle only the remaining monsters when moving into that room?

2nd solution makes sense to me...how do you think about that?

[Fighteer]

1) Say that I am standing in a room with a single monster in it and some Loot. Another player plays Surprise! and makes that monster attack me. I win the battle and kill the monster. Do I get to pick up two Loot from the room as a bonus for clearing the last monster inside, or does nothing of the sort happen because it is not my turn? Is the answer any different if I was also the person who played the Surprise! card?
You pick up two Loot from the room regardless of whose turn it is, if you are the one who cleared it. Whose turn it is when Surprise! was played is not relevant, nor does it matter if you played Surprise! on yourself. However, if you played Surprise! on yourself during your turn, you would not be eligible to pick up any further loot on that turn.


- They cannot be used multiple times for one player, but can they be used combined with normal assistance from the same player? If not, can they be combined with each other? For example, Roy asks Haley for help with some drooled over Loot. He still wants more help, but has no Haley-heads, so he throws a way a Loot to ask Haley for more assistance with Creative Motivation. He also uses SLaLG on her so that he could get even more assistance. Is any of this illegal?
As far as I know, there's no restriction on stacking those cards with other forms of assistance from a single player.


- When they are used, do/can they also trigger other assistance-related Shticks and events (such as Fearless Leader, Bard Song, Buff Spell, Double Cross, No I In Team, Eternal Gratitude)? In the cases of Double Cross and Eternal Gratitude, how is the Loot handled?
There's a specific rule in the FAQ that Elan's Bard Song applies only once per battle, regardless of how much assistance he provides. I assume that Buff Spell works in the same way. Double Cross would seem to apply to the sum total of all assistance you provide in a battle, since you can't assist both sides at the same time; while Eternal Gratitude seems to apply specifically to the basic request for assistance, not to the effects of any other cards. I'm not sure about the others.


- I imagine that those cards still can't allow players to assist both battling players in a PvP battle. Is this correct?
Correct.


- Regarding only SLaLG, if Roy is one of its targets and doesn't want to assist, then he doesn't need to flip Fearless Leader, since he was not really invited; the card specifies only that he may not refuse requests. Correct?
I would assume so.


- Regarding only Creative Motivation, if an initial offer is refused, can Roy try to make another offer to the same player by throwing another card? If a player refused an offer and changed his mind later for some reason (like seeing that Roy is doing well enough without him), can he then choose to accept the offer, against Roy's will? If not, can he do it with Roy's will, without Roy having to throw away another card?
I don't believe that assistance choices can be altered after being made, with the exception of Screw This! cards.


Now my question:
Since the room is on 3rd floor, but there is only 1 monster remaining in the room, is this considered as a "new" battle (Durkon came in)? If yes, that would mean the room was populated with another 2 monsters up to battle size 3 again.
Or am I totally wrong and if there is a room with monsters that weren't all killed in an earlier battle, players have to battle only the remaining monsters when moving into that room?

2nd solution makes sense to me...how do you think about that?
The room is not considered cleared until the last monster in it is defeated. Therefore, no new battle will be triggered, and no additional Battle Deck cards may be played unless a specific card states otherwise. Durkon (and any other players, including Roy) will only battle the one remaining monster until it's defeated. Should it be defeated, any player moving into the room on a subsequent turn when no other players were present would trigger a new battle.

[prj]

A new battle is triggered, the battle size is 3, players populate the room with 3 monsters. Unfortunately Roy is not able to kill the first monster, but the two other ones die from his mighty Greenhilt sword.

Fighteer answered your main question, but I'll point out that this situation can't happen quite as you describe it. Monsters are fought in the same order that they are played into a room; you don't stack them bottom-up as they are played in and then fight the stack top-down/last-to-first. So Roy has to defeat the first monster before he has the option of battling any others. If he fails to defeat the first monster, he has to stop battling for that turn.

What he could do, though, is defeat the first two, and leave the last one (by losing, or drawing, or choosing not to continue fighting), and then your question is meaningful. (The authoritative answer is on page 10 of the rulebook, under "Triggering a new battle".)

[Phischi]

Fighteer answered your main question, but I'll point out that this situation can't happen quite as you describe it. Monsters are fought in the same order that they are played into a room; you don't stack them bottom-up as they are played in and then fight the stack top-down/last-to-first. So Roy has to defeat the first monster before he has the option of battling any others. If he fails to defeat the first monster, he has to stop battling for that turn.

What he could do, though, is defeat the first two, and leave the last one (by losing, or drawing, or choosing not to continue fighting), and then your question is meaningful. (The authoritative answer is on page 10 of the rulebook, under "Triggering a new battle".)


Thanks for reading my post that carefully :smallwink:

I knew there was something we made wrong when playing this game for the first time...possibly a reason why our "short game" with 3 people didn't come to an end this evening after playing for ~5 hours...:smallmad:

I wasn't sure about the fact that if you don't defeat the top monster in a room, you must not battle the other monsters below in the stack. Now it's clear to me. :smallsmile:

[Lord Greywarden]

I knew there was something we made wrong when playing this game for the first time...possibly a reason why our "short game" with 3 people didn't come to an end this evening after playing for ~5 hours...:smallmad:
Heck, even after playing the game a dozen times, our group cannot get through a "short game" in 5 hours... ok, we could if we could eliminate all out-of-game distractions (goofing off, phone calls, comparisons of who's work week sucked most, etc.) and put a 2-minute time-limit on turns.... we might get done in say 4 hours 45 minutes ;)

[Xardas]

I've got some questions for you:

1) Which one of the following can change the result of a battle after the dice are rolled: Buff Spell (assuming V is helping you), I Forgot They Could Do That (to cancel assist ability), Forgotten Bonus and Get Angry.

2) Is it possible to use FTCDT after you lose in a battle to cancel abilities that can effect you? (like paralyze, thief and bloodlust and so on)

3) Can Belkar perform a leaping attack through a Dark room? (assuming the dark room is between the room that contains Belkar and the room which contains the player or monster that Belkar wants to attack).

4) The only monster in the Xykon Deck with no XP or treasure is the "Guard monster", which is one of the toughest monsters in the game. Is it supposed to be this way or it is just a misprint?

Thanks in advence, Xardas.

[prj]

1) Which one of the following can change the result of a battle after the dice are rolled: Buff Spell (assuming V is helping you), I Forgot They Could Do That (to cancel assist ability), Forgotten Bonus and Get Angry.

Forgotten Bonus is the only one that can be used after the die roll.


2) Is it possible to use FTCDT after you lose in a battle to cancel abilities that can effect you? (like paralyze, thief and bloodlust and so on)

No. IFTCDT says it can be used "When any player (including you) is battling a Monster." After the moment of the die roll, you are no longer battling the monster; you are only figuring out what the results of the battle were.


3) Can Belkar perform a leaping attack through a Dark room? (assuming the dark room is between the room that contains Belkar and the room which contains the player or monster that Belkar wants to attack).

A Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack followed by movement. The room doesn't prevent ranged attacks through it, so I would say that the attack happens normally. The movement afterward might be blocked, although if the Dark Room is empty, then it would seem that Belkar would have to stop and fight a new battle, which isn't supposed to be possible after a ranged attack. So I'm not sure.

[apegamer]

Some questions.

1) Say that I am standing in a room with a single monster in it and some Loot. Another player plays Surprise! and makes that monster attack me. I win the battle and kill the monster. Do I get to pick up two Loot from the room as a bonus for clearing the last monster inside, or does nothing of the sort happen because it is not my turn? Is the answer any different if I was also the person who played the Surprise! card?


You pick up two Loot from the room regardless of whose turn it is, if you are the one who cleared it. Whose turn it is when Surprise! was played is not relevant, nor does it matter if you played Surprise! on yourself. However, if you played Surprise! on yourself during your turn, you would not be eligible to pick up any further loot on that turn.

Right.


2) Regarding Roy's Fearless Leader: How does the "no refusing" part work when assisting in PvP battles? Assuming both players ask for his assistance, can he choose which one to assist without flipping the Fearless Leader, or must he immediately give assistance to the first player to ask him?

Roy may only provide assistance to one of the players, and PVP specifies an order that the players ask for assistance. If he chooses to flip the shtick when the first player asks, then it's not available for the second player.


3) The following questions regard both "Creative Motivation" and "Scream Like A Little Girl":

- They cannot be used multiple times for one player, but can they be used combined with normal assistance from the same player? If not, can they be combined with each other? For example, Roy asks Haley for help with some drooled over Loot. He still wants more help, but has no Haley-heads, so he throws a way a Loot to ask Haley for more assistance with Creative Motivation. He also uses SLaLG on her so that he could get even more assistance. Is any of this illegal?


As far as I know, there's no restriction on stacking those cards with other forms of assistance from a single player.

Right - both can be used targeting the same player.


- When they are used, do/can they also trigger other assistance-related Shticks and events (such as Fearless Leader, Bard Song, Buff Spell, Double Cross, No I In Team, Eternal Gratitude)? In the cases of Double Cross and Eternal Gratitude, how is the Loot handled?


There's a specific rule in the FAQ that Elan's Bard Song applies only once per battle, regardless of how much assistance he provides. I assume that Buff Spell works in the same way. Double Cross would seem to apply to the sum total of all assistance you provide in a battle, since you can't assist both sides at the same time; while Eternal Gratitude seems to apply specifically to the basic request for assistance, not to the effects of any other cards. I'm not sure about the others.

Creative Motivation and SLaLG say that the player 'assists', and the shticks you mentions say 'when assisting', so yes, they count.


- I imagine that those cards still can't allow players to assist both battling players in a PvP battle. Is this correct?



Correct.

Right.


- Regarding only SLaLG, if Roy is one of its targets and doesn't want to assist, then he doesn't need to flip Fearless Leader, since he was not really invited; the card specifies only that he may not refuse requests. Correct?


I would assume so.

SLaLG says that Roy 'may assist' the player. He doesn't need to, but if he DOES assist, then Fearless Leader comes into play, since that card says 'when assisting.'


- Regarding only Creative Motivation, if an initial offer is refused, can Roy try to make another offer to the same player by throwing another card? If a player refused an offer and changed his mind later for some reason (like seeing that Roy is doing well enough without him), can he then choose to accept the offer, against Roy's will? If not, can he do it with Roy's will, without Roy having to throw away another card?


I don't believe that assistance choices can be altered after being made, with the exception of Screw This! cards.

Yes, Roy can keep scrapping his loot if he thinks that asking nicely will help with future attempts.

A player cannot 'change his mind later', in either direction.


Since the room is on 3rd floor, but there is only 1 monster remaining in the room, is this considered as a "new" battle (Durkon came in)? If yes, that would mean the room was populated with another 2 monsters up to battle size 3 again.
Or am I totally wrong and if there is a room with monsters that weren't all killed in an earlier battle, players have to battle only the remaining monsters when moving into that room?


The room is not considered cleared until the last monster in it is defeated. Therefore, no new battle will be triggered, and no additional Battle Deck cards may be played unless a specific card states otherwise. Durkon (and any other players, including Roy) will only battle the one remaining monster until it's defeated. Should it be defeated, any player moving into the room on a subsequent turn when no other players were present would trigger a new battle.

Right.

[apegamer]

1) Which one of the following can change the result of a battle after the dice are rolled: Buff Spell (assuming V is helping you), I Forgot They Could Do That (to cancel assist ability), Forgotten Bonus and Get Angry.


Forgotten Bonus is the only one that can be used after the die roll.

Right.


2) Is it possible to use FTCDT after you lose in a battle to cancel abilities that can effect you? (like paralyze, thief and bloodlust and so on)


No. IFTCDT says it can be used "When any player (including you) is battling a Monster." After the moment of the die roll, you are no longer battling the monster; you are only figuring out what the results of the battle were.

Right.


3) Can Belkar perform a leaping attack through a Dark room? (assuming the dark room is between the room that contains Belkar and the room which contains the player or monster that Belkar wants to attack).


A Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack followed by movement. The room doesn't prevent ranged attacks through it, so I would say that the attack happens normally. The movement afterward might be blocked, although if the Dark Room is empty, then it would seem that Belkar would have to stop and fight a new battle, which isn't supposed to be possible after a ranged attack. So I'm not sure.

The Dark Room has no effect on this discussion. The Dark Room doesn't say it blocks LoS (so Belkar can attack through it) and the Leaping Attack shtick doesn't say that Belkar moves through all of the intervening rooms, but rather that you are moved into the target room.

[prj]

Roy may only provide assistance to one of the players, and PVP specifies an order that the players ask for assistance.

The order is specified only for assistance from NPCs. Other players "are welcome to hear offers from both players, but can only accept one."

In a PvM battle, Roy can take some time to think about whether to give assistance or flip Fearless Leader. So in a PvP battle, I'd guess that, once the first request for assistance comes in, he can also wait a while, to see if the other player also requests his assistance. If he gets requests from both players, then he can choose which to assist, and since he then becomes ineligible to assist the other, he doesn't have to flip Fearless Leader to turn them down. Correct?

[BobTheConquerer]

Question about fireballing, sorry if this has been asked before, but it is a big list to look through by this point.

The rules (and posts I have seen) seem to say that monster abilities appy to all monsters on the stack, but "enchanted" only applies to that one monster right?

Also, can you choose which monsters are "targets" if the stack is larger than the fireball can hit? Or if you hit two do you always just hit the first two (skipping over any monsters that have "enchanted"). (for example, can you snipe the roaches at the bottom of the stack).

Also, do you have to overcome the defense score of the toughest monster in the stack even if they aren't one of the targets?

[prj]

sorry if this has been asked before, but it is a big list to look through by this point.

Yes, but in your case, all the answers are on page 18 of the rulebook. :smallsmile:


The rules (and posts I have seen) seem to say that monster abilities appy to all monsters on the stack, but "enchanted" only applies to that one monster right?

Right - immunity from certain kinds of attacks, as well as Attack/Defense/Range modifications, are applied to each monster individually. Enchanted in particular is used in the example on page 18.


Also, can you choose which monsters are "targets" if the stack is larger than the fireball can hit?

No. Page 18, bottom of the first column: "When a certain number is indicated, start with the top of the Battle STack and count downwards to find which Monsters are to be battled."


Or if you hit two do you always just hit the first two (skipping over any monsters that have "enchanted").

Right, except you don't skip Enchanted (or otherwise immune) monsters when figuring out which monsters to battle and what Attack/Defense number you need to beat. You only skip them when applying the results of the battle if you win (i.e., removing the monsters you defeated). Monsters with an applicable kind of immunity will always survive the attack, but they still count as one of the participating monsters.


Also, do you have to overcome the defense score of the toughest monster in the stack even if they aren't one of the targets?

No, just the toughest monster targeted.

[prj]

For shticks that have special rules for unflipping (for example, Belkar's Doesn't Play Well With Others), if they get flipped without being used (for example, by Party Leader Veto), can they then be unflipped by resting/returning to the dungeon entrance/A Good Laugh/etc., or do their special unflipping rules still apply?

Say Roy wins a battle using the Greenhilt Sword, and then someone plays a Broken Weapon on him. But now Roy has 3 Xs, which he cashes in for a new shtick - which turns out to be another copy of the Greenhilt Sword. Is this new copy usable without returning to the dungeon entrance? I'm guessing it shouldn't be, but a strict reading of the wording of Broken Weapon would seem to allow it - it doesn't say newly drawn copies would start out flipped.

I'm down to my last wound before I have to flee the dungeon. I trigger a new battle, and I suspect I'm going to lose. Can I take advantage of Cure Assorted Wounds after triggering the battle, but before I roll the die? How about after I spring a trap, but before I make my Evade roll? For a multi-target trap, can Belkar wait for someone else to fail their Evade roll, then heal himself with Schadenfreude before trying his roll?

[Rumtummy]

For shticks that have special rules for unflipping (for example, Belkar's Doesn't Play Well With Others), if they get flipped without being used (for example, by Party Leader Veto), can they then be unflipped by resting/returning to the dungeon entrance/A Good Laugh/etc., or do their special unflipping rules still apply?im sure we can all agree that flipped or unflipped a DPWWO acting as an "XP token" is unavailable to be used as a shtick again until it is properly returned to shtick row as per card text. i figure that the spirit of the game would suggest that all flipped shticks not otherwise occupied by rules (ie, waiting to be used as an X) allow it to be unflipped after rest.


Say Roy wins a battle using the Greenhilt Sword, and then someone plays a Broken Weapon on him. But now Roy has 3 Xs, which he cashes in for a new shtick - which turns out to be another copy of the Greenhilt Sword. Is this new copy usable without returning to the dungeon entrance? I'm guessing it shouldn't be, but a strict reading of the wording of Broken Weapon would seem to allow it - it doesn't say newly drawn copies would start out flipped.sounds like you put the new sword on top of the Broken that's on top of the old sword(s). you can use it but it's not boosted like you'd like it.


I'm down to my last wound before I have to flee the dungeon. I trigger a new battle, and I suspect I'm going to lose. Can I take advantage of Cure Assorted Wounds after triggering the battle, but before I roll the die? How about after I spring a trap, but before I make my Evade roll? For a multi-target trap, can Belkar wait for someone else to fail their Evade roll, then heal himself with Schadenfreude before trying his roll?uhm i dont actually have the rules infront of me, oddly enough, but the CAW doesnt give a time to be used and Schad only requires someone else take a wound. if you've got a rules nazi available you might be making your rolls in a clockwise manner and have to put up with that. for everyone else, the spirit of Belkar suggests that you just let everyone else get caught up in the game mechanic and grab the dice before you. it's not your fault if they're in a hurry.

...okay now for me:

i've not seen this before in the other skimmed Fireball questions and i was a little borred as V the other day.... Fireball does not say no pvp but it does not give a pvp wound. if V attacked Roy with this and won his rolls (or Roy was out of defensive range) am i right in saying he would have won a pvp battle and thus be entitled to loot? or is it "no wound, no win" and a draw?

assume the above example but add two monsters in the room with Roy. do the monsters use Roy's roll as defense? OR do Roy and the two monsters share Range and use the highest defense (monsters or Roy's roll)?

and, has anyone else wondered if the Half-Orc adventurer should also be concidered Human support too?

[Zembar]

I have a question about Roy's Master of Battle Administration

Skimmed the thread, didn't see this asked/answered.

The 2nd part of it says "You gain +2 attack and +2 Defense when fighting monsters that have either the Leader or Duel ability."

If you're fighting a monster with both Leader and Duel do you get 2 bonuses, effective getting a +4 bonus vs. that monster? Or do you just get a single +2 bonus even if they have both abilities?

Thanks in advance.

-Zem

[vivi]

I don't think it stacks

[Rumtummy]

I have a question about Roy's Master of Battle Administration
-Zemare there any mobs with both Leader and Duel? anyway, card reads "when fighting Monsters that have either the Leader or Duel ability." sounds more like the bonus is triggered only once or it would have been worded more clearly i think.

or maybe that's all that fit on the card. ...i wonder sometimes if maybe another cool ability might be in order for a card but they ran out of room for neat, readable text ;)

[Zembar]

are there any mobs with both Leader and Duel? anyway, card reads "when fighting Monsters that have either the Leader or Duel ability." sounds more like the bonus is triggered only once or it would have been worded more clearly i think.

or maybe that's all that fit on the card. ...i wonder sometimes if maybe another cool ability might be in order for a card but they ran out of room for neat, readable text ;)

Well, a quick scan of the monsters showed me there is one with both Leader and Duel. Samantha, the sorceress.

I do agree that the way its written sounds like it only gives a bonus once, but I know my group. This will probably be a point of "discussion" and wanted to go into this prepared in case it comes up.

Thanks again

-Zem

[Fighteer]

Say Roy wins a battle using the Greenhilt Sword, and then someone plays a Broken Weapon on him. But now Roy has 3 Xs, which he cashes in for a new shtick - which turns out to be another copy of the Greenhilt Sword. Is this new copy usable without returning to the dungeon entrance? I'm guessing it shouldn't be, but a strict reading of the wording of Broken Weapon would seem to allow it - it doesn't say newly drawn copies would start out flipped.
Only one copy of the Greenhilt Sword would be flipped by Broken Weapon; if Roy had multiple copies in play, he should still be able to use them; he simply loses any Boost effect he would get from the one that's flipped.

[prj]

im sure we can all agree that flipped or unflipped a DPWWO acting as an "XP token"

It can't be an X when it's unflipped. The card specifies that it flips when it becomes an X.


i figure that the spirit of the game would suggest that all flipped shticks not otherwise occupied by rules (ie, waiting to be used as an X) allow it to be unflipped after rest.

That's my guess as well, but I'm hoping to get the official word from the Giant or apegamer (likewise for my other questions).


if you've got a rules nazi available you might be making your rolls in a clockwise manner and have to put up with that.

I'm as much of a rules lawyer as anyone. But the rules don't specify what order evade rolls are made in, nor whether all the wounds resulting from a single battle or trap take place effectively simultaneously. I would lean toward making them effectively simultaneous, meaning that no matter what order the rolls are made in, Belkar can't use Schadenfreude in between rolls for the same trap to save himself from losing his last wound, but again, I'm looking for the official word.

[prj]

Only one copy of the Greenhilt Sword would be flipped by Broken Weapon

Nope. Broken Weapon explicitly says that all copies are flipped.

[prj]

Fireball does not say no pvp

But the rulebook does. Page 18: "Area Effect Shticks cannot be used as a Battle Shtick in a player vs. player battle."


assume the above example but add two monsters in the room with Roy. do the monsters use Roy's roll as defense?

You can never battle against monsters and players at the same time. You can target a player with a non-AE shtick (which therefore does not target any other players or monsters), or you can target the monster stack, but not any players in the same room, using an AE shtick.


and, has anyone else wondered if the Half-Orc adventurer should also be concidered Human support too?

I'd say no - some monsters do have multiple support icons at the top of the card, so if Half-Orc Adventurer were meant to support human-supported monsters, he would have had a human icon there, and he doesn't. Anyway, the card doesn't say what the other half is. :smallwink: Also anyway, there are no monsters that are supported by humans. Bandits, yes, but not humans.

[Rumtummy]

It can't be an X when it's unflipped. The card specifies that it flips when it becomes an X.card says it's an X till it's used as an X as far as i'm concerned. but, i agree that if the FAQ says differently i'll be playing differently. same for the traps / schad.


Nope. Broken Weapon explicitly says that all copies are flipped.yep i agree. all copies of sthick currently present in play when the card drops are required to be flipped.


But the rulebook does. Page 18: "Area Effect Shticks cannot be used as a Battle Shtick in a player vs. player battle."yeah, got the rules back: 4th bullet point on page 18. aww, that's just too bad. i hope an expansion allows for limited use with AE. perhaps allow the the same shtick used on the monster battle (if succeeds) to optionally apply also in one (or more?) pvp battle (rolls and loot-for-support bonus not carrying over from monster battle) before flipping it. if for no other reason than that the other player is in the same room as the monsters you're ranged attacking on your turn because he had just then been engaged with those same monsters and remains close to them.

i didnt have access to the rules when i posed the dumb question. just a little frustrated. my games have shown fireball to be situational, risky and expensive: someone nearby has to fail their battle (if it's you, waste a turn walking to a safe square or eat a wound) and then you still want to be out of it's retaliation range but too far and you won't see any loot (instead of just meager loot). and it flips. i can appreciate the flip and limit of top two monsters (and subsequent boosts) but that doesnt stop V from feeling like a slow, oppertunistic Roy afflicted with -4 defense (rest) alot. to me. it hasn't stopped me from playing V in a random deal but i went looking for a bit of spice. ;)

[TeeBee3]

We've played the game a few times, and have come across a few questions. Here are the ones I remember so far. Thanks in advance.

This isn't technically a rules question, but it is somewhat related: The online FAQ states it was last updated 2/13/07. The printed one in my box states it was last edited 5/10/2007. How / why is it that the printed is newer than the online?

Suppose that Roy is assisting Belkar and is using his Fearless Leader shtick. Belkar only has one wound left, and loses the battle. Belkar moves his wound marker down to his last wound, and thus starts to Flee. However Roy's shtick allows him to heal 1 wound at the end of battle. If Roy chooses to heal Belkar's wound, is Belkar still fleeing? Would Belkar even have begun moving towards the entrance and dropping loot?

If a player is Fleeing the Dungeon and receives healing before reaching the entrance, what happens? Answer found, players can't be healed while fleeing.

You kill the last monster in the room, and there's a big pile of loot there. Having killed the last monster, you draw two loots, and end your turn. On your next turn, you do not move at all. You are still the one who killed the last monster in this room. Can you draw two loots again?

Is a "battle" the fighting of 1 monster card in a room, or of all the monster cards in a room. Or more specifically, how long does assistance from other players last once you offer them Loot they Drool Over? For one monster card, or for all the monster cards in a room?

Regarding Haley's "Come to Me, My Pretties" shtick: First line states "Whenever you take Loot cards from a room that has no Monsters in it, you may take one additional Loot." 1st, is it possible to take Loot when there ARE Monsters in a room? 2nd) Does this allow Haley to draw Loot from the deck if there's no extra Loot in the room? Also, at what point is "has no Monsters" measured? If Haley enters a room that has Loot but no Monsters, there are no Monsters in it at that point. However, that would trigger a new battle, and there are now Monsters. If Haley defeats this Monsters, there are once again no Monsters in the room.

Some cards say to flip any shtick. For example, Roy's Party Leader Veto. Does this mean you can flip any flippable shtick, or literally any shtick?

If a boosted shtick gets flipped, do all the boosting cards get flipped as well? For example, if Durkon has two Cure Assorted Wounds shtick cards in play, and Roy is only down 1 wound, could Durkon flip only one of the shtick cards? Or, same situation for Durkon, but now Haley and V are each one wound away from Fleeing. Could Durkon heal one wound on each of them? Answer found. Flipping example in rule book.

[prj]

Suppose that Roy is assisting Belkar and is using his Fearless Leader shtick. Belkar only has one wound left, and loses the battle. Belkar moves his wound marker down to his last wound, and thus starts to Flee. However Roy's shtick allows him to heal 1 wound at the end of battle. If Roy chooses to heal Belkar's wound, is Belkar still fleeing?

I don't think Fearless Leader can be used to heal other players' wounds. Benefits that can be applied to other players explicitly say so.

But regardless, Belkar would be fleeing since he lost all his wounds, which means he definitely can't be healed now.


You kill the last monster in the room, and there's a big pile of loot there. Having killed the last monster, you draw two loots, and end your turn. On your next turn, you do not move at all. You are still the one who killed the last monster in this room. Can you draw two loots again?

A strict reading of the wording in the rulebook would seem to allow it, but I don't think that's the intent. I think you're only supposed to get the extra loot on the same turn when you defeated the last monster.


Is a "battle" the fighting of 1 monster card in a room, or of all the monster cards in a room. Or more specifically, how long does assistance from other players last once you offer them Loot they Drool Over? For one monster card, or for all the monster cards in a room?

Usually for only one monster. It could be for multiple monsters, but only if you're using an Area Effect shtick to battle multiple monsters simultaneously. Otherwise, each monster is a separate battle.


1st, is it possible to take Loot when there ARE Monsters in a room?

Yes, with Haley's "Swipe!" shtick.


2nd) Does this (Come To Me, My Pretties) allow Haley to draw Loot from the deck if there's no extra Loot in the room?

No. This is the same as with any other character - there might be loot in the room when you move into it, but if the supply runs out, you don't draw from the deck just because you would have been entitled to loot if there were any left.


Also, at what point is "has no Monsters" measured?

At the point when you take the loot. It's "Whenever you take Loot cards from a room that has no Monsters in it" - not "a room that had no Monsters in it at the time when you entered it", nor "a room that has never had any Monsters in it since you entered it", nor anything else.


If Haley enters a room that has Loot but no Monsters, there are no Monsters in it at that point. However, that would trigger a new battle, and there are now Monsters. If Haley defeats this Monsters, there are once again no Monsters in the room.

Right. Haley can take 3 loots in that case - 2 for defeating the last monster in the room, plus 1 from the shtick.


Some cards say to flip any shtick. For example, Roy's Party Leader Veto. Does this mean you can flip any flippable shtick, or literally any shtick?

It doesn't specify any restriction as to which shticks it can be used on, so you can indeed use it to flip shticks that don't flip on their own. (Likewise for the "Dun Dun Dun" Screw This card.) But note the FAQ entry about PLV: it's usable only at the beginning of Roy's turn. (Likewise for Haley's Second In Command.)

[Rumtummy]

You kill the last monster in the room, and there's a big pile of loot there. Having killed the last monster, you draw two loots, and end your turn. On your next turn, you do not move at all. You are still the one who killed the last monster in this room. Can you draw two loots again?
A strict reading of the wording in the rulebook would seem to allow it, but I don't think that's the intent. I think you're only supposed to get the extra loot on the same turn when you defeated the last monster.you have "killed the last monster" durring the turn in which you have killed the last monster. for turns thereafter, remember that when you rest you are allowed to pick up (up to) two loots from the room.
- page 20: Resting, Page 24: How Much Loot Can Be Picked Up, Page 25: Picking Up Loot (Example)


Also, at what point is "has no Monsters" measured?
At the point when you take the loot.you can loot at beginning or end of turn. if you move into a room and a monster shows up you are in the middle of your turn, not beginning or end.
- Page 8: Sidebar

[TeeBee3]

Regarding Elan's "Poorly-Planned Illusion" shtick: "You may move each monster defeated..." Does this mean that Elan can save the monster(s) toward shtick, OR move them to another room?

[Dreyden]

Regarding Elan's "Poorly-Planned Illusion" shtick: "You may move each monster defeated..." Does this mean that Elan can save the monster(s) toward shtick, OR move them to another room?

Monsters only get saved and drop loot when they're killed - usually by a battle schtick whose victory (flag) text says "Foe loses 1 Wound" or something similar to that. Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion shtick does deal defeated foes any wounds, it just moves them into another room. So moving them is his only choice.

[Rumtummy]

Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion shtick doesn't deal defeated foes any wounds, it just moves them into another room. So moving them is his only choice.althought i thought i should add that i'm pretty sure it was decided that if you were fighting the monsters and range 0 and there was already loot in the room then by succeeding with PPI you "defeated the last monster in the room" and could pick up two loots instead of one.

[spawn_I]

New player on the playground...

We started to play and questions about the rules come all the time... I am reading the rules and try to make them [the other players] understand how things work but in some cases I couldn't find an answer

question #1 : Haley was resting in one room. Roy enters room and attacks Haley. Both players get support from others, Haley has a -4 in Defence. The question is: Can Haley use a shtick card for her Defence? Or not because she was resting?

question #2 : Some monsters got Support:Horde. As Horde counts what? Every other monster on the same floor?

question #3 : I play Roy. I begin my movement in a room with a Dragon. I must attack. But I got no ranged attack and Dragon is Flying with Range 6. What does it happen? If I got range < 6 but no 0 can I attack it?


Sorta noobish questions but we start our adventure from lvl1. :smallredface: waiting for a response...

p.s. excuse me if I wrote anything wrong... English, not my native language, have't practice them for years.

[prj]

Haley was resting in one room. Roy enters room and attacks Haley. Both players get support from others, Haley has a -4 in Defence. The question is: Can Haley use a shtick card for her Defence?

Yes. There is no prohibition against using shticks in that case.


question #2 : Some monsters got Support:Horde. As Horde counts what? Every other monster on the same floor?

For all types of support (including Horde), a monster is supported by any monsters on the same floor that match the first monster's support type. (This is specified in the green box on page 31 of the rulebook.)

In the case of Horde, if someone plays a monster that is Horde-supported by Undead monsters, then the battle size increases by 1 for every Undead monster on the same floor - and while players are adding monsters to the battle to reach the battle size, if any more Undead monsters are added, the battle size goes up again.


question #3 : I play Roy. I begin my movement in a room with a Dragon. I must attack. But I got no ranged attack and Dragon is Flying with Range 6. What does it happen? If I got range < 6 but no 0 can I attack it?


The dragon's range is irrelevant in this case. "Flying" only means that you cannot use a Range 0 shtick. Anything more than 0 is ok if you are attacking from the same room.

If you are attacking from a different room, then you can ignore the Flying ability - you just need to have enough range to reach that room.

[spawn_I]

#1 Ok, we played that part wrong... someone will kill me for that :smallbiggrin:

#3 Wrong, too. So Belkar with Leaping Attack can attack the Dragon eh? And from another room we don't count range as 1 room and 6 from the dragon = 7? Haley with Ranged Attack 4 can Attack from the room next to the one that the Dragon is?

#2 You mean that Horde = Undead or I don't get the point?

Thanks for your answers, hope not to be disturbing... :smallredface:

[prj]

So Belkar with Leaping Attack can attack the Dragon eh?

Yes.


And from another room we don't count range as 1 room and 6 from the dragon = 7? Haley with Ranged Attack 4 can Attack from the room next to the one that the Dragon is?

Yes, she can. The distance to the dragon is 1, and that's what matters. The dragon's range number never determines whether you can attack it. It only determines whether the dragon can wound you if you attack and lose.

For example, Vaarsuvius with a fully-boosted Lightning Bolt has a range of 7. So V can attack from 7 rooms away. If V loses, there's no wound, because the dragon doesn't have enough range to reach V. (Rulebook page 12, second bullet under "Ranged Defense".)


#2 You mean that Horde = Undead or I don't get the point?

Maybe I don't understad your original question. Can you rephrase it?

[spawn_I]

ok, got the Ranged Attack part... thanks

now for #2 I'll try to explain [note: I don't have the cards in front of me]

see page 31 of the Rules... Horde Support Ability.

If I play a monster with the Horde Support Ability [the card doesn't say anyhting about battle size] but in the same floor there are other monsters that can support this one [Goblin Necromancer as if in the example given and 3 misc. goblins in other rooms] then the battle size goes +3?

[prj]

If I play a monster with the Horde Support Ability [the card doesn't say anyhting about battle size] but in the same floor there are other monsters that can support this one [Goblin Necromancer as if in the example given and 3 misc. goblins in other rooms] then the battle size goes +3?

First I'll answer the question you didn't ask: Goblin Necromancer is a goblin himself, but it is not supported by goblins. It is supported by undead. The icon at the top left corner of the card shows the monster's own type, but the icon next to "Support:" shows the type of monster that supports this one. They are often the same, but they can be different.

Now to answer the question you did ask: if there are some supporting monsters already on the same floor, then yes, they do contribute their support. So if there are 3 undead monsters already on the floor when someone plays a Goblin Necromancer, then they do increase the battle size by 3 immediately.

[Harlequin_1998]

I have a question about Outsmart and Area Effect (specifically Fireball). Let's say :vaarsuvius: is blasting a stack of 3 monsters with a boosted fireball and the third monster has the Outsmart ability. :vaarsuvius:'s shticks are shuffled and one of the Fireballs is (randomly) selected and flipped. Now, the Fireball can only affect the top two monster, so what happens? Does play continue, leaving the Fireball flipped but only affecting the top two monsters? Is the third monster affected anyway? Does the paradox cause a rift in the very fabric of space-time, allowing a horde of horrid shapeless monsters to flood in and run amuck? :confused:

[prj]

Let's say :vaarsuvius: is blasting a stack of 3 monsters with a boosted fireball and the third monster has the Outsmart ability. :vaarsuvius:'s shticks are shuffled and one of the Fireballs is (randomly) selected and flipped. Now, the Fireball can only affect the top two monster, so what happens?

Good question. This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2595611#post2595611) is the closest I can find to an official precedent. The rule seems to be "if you have a way to continue battling, you have to do it, without modifying any of the already-established battle conditions unless you are forced to." So I'd say you still battle, and you still use the same Battle Shtick if you have any unflipped copies left (otherwise you have to choose another), but you use it in its less-boosted state - so in this case, you're now only battling the top two monsters (which might be a good thing, as far as what you need to roll to win).

[billan]

A favorite tactic is to unequip all loot except for one lame one at the end of the turn, equip it all again at the beginning of the next turn, and then unequip all but the lame one at the end again. This is to prevent another player from taking good loot should they attack and defeat you. Is this play legal?

Are there any restrictions as to what can be traded between other players and when? Can loot be traded between players? Screw This cards? Monster cards in your Battle Hand? Saved monsters that have been defeated? Are trades made at any time or just on your turn?

If Belkar attacks Roy who uses Logic and wins so Belkar must lose a turn. The rules say that Belkar is immediately put on his side. Can he collect a loot in the room he's in at the end of his current turn?

Thanks.

[prj]

A favorite tactic is to unequip all loot except for one lame one at the end of the turn, equip it all again at the beginning of the next turn, and then unequip all but the lame one at the end again.

Legal, if perhaps a bit underhanded, according to
apegamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1914995#post1914995) and the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1927350#post1927350).


Are there any restrictions as to what can be traded between other players and when? Can loot be traded between players?

Loot is given in exchange for assistance, or for healing from Durkon, or other situations that call for it. But loot is not given in exchange for other loot.


Screw This cards? Monster cards in your Battle Hand? Saved monsters that have been defeated?

No. The rules say what you can do with those cards, and trading isn't one of the options given.


If Belkar attacks Roy who uses Logic and wins so Belkar must lose a turn. The rules say that Belkar is immediately put on his side. Can he collect a loot in the room he's in at the end of his current turn?

No, see page 20 of the rulebook, under "Missing a Turn": "When something causes you to miss a turn, place your Character Move Token on its side in the room immediately. You are now missing a turn." So losing a turn is really more like "lose one and a half turns".

[spawn_I]

new question.

I don't have the game in front of me so I'll try to explain as best as I can...

I play Roy. And I get to fight with Xykon... I use Charge so I attack instead of defend. Then I use Greenhilt Sword and both boosts. That's +6 Attack [If I remember correctly]. I ask for assistance from others players and I get it. Then one of my shtick cards [I think Blood Oath of Vengeance] says that I boost every shtick card. So... I boost the Greenhilt Sword one more time [+8] or I boost and the three copies [+12]?

hope you get what I mean...

[prj]

Then one of my shtick cards [I think Blood Oath of Vengeance] says that I boost every shtick card. So... I boost the Greenhilt Sword one more time [+8] or I boost and the three copies [+12]?

The Blood Oath gives you only one extra boost to the Greenhilt Sword, not three. When it says that it boosts all your other shticks, that means that it also boosts Great Cleavage, Logic, Bag of Tricks, etc. (Once each.) But the boost to the Greenhilt Sword is the only one that will matter anyway, in this case.

If you had already flipped Charge!, and if you weren't confident about defending against Xykon, then you could use the Plate Mail and Boots (boosted by the Blood Oath), and then attack on your next turn, with the Blood Oath now boosting the Greenhilt Sword. That's the only situation I can think of where having the Blood Oath boost other shticks would help.

[Nowell]

Ok, I played this for the first time last october at Necronomicon in FL, and bought it a week or 2 later. My gaming group has figured out pretty much every rules question, but the support thing has got me completely confused. I'm not sure how the support abilities work, and in what order they go in. For example (don't have the game, posting at work) if I started a battle size 3 battle with some demon roaches, then put say, an ogre that gains +1 wound when it's supported, then on top of that gets put a goblin that gains +2 A/D for every supporting character. Does the goblin get the support from the roaches, and once the goblin is dead, the roaches then support the ogre? Also, does the support ability only count for monsters on the battle stack in one room, or are monsters supported by all the monsters on the floor (that apply). If someone can give me a run down of how it works, that would be great!

[prj]

if I started a battle size 3 battle with some demon roaches, then put say, an ogre that gains +1 wound when it's supported, then on top of that gets put a goblin that gains +2 A/D for every supporting character.

Firstly, it sounds like you're stacking the monsters in the wrong order. The first one played stays on top; the second one goes under that; the third goes under the second. (See "Playing Monsters" on page 11 of the rulebook.) The exception is the Demon Roaches, which always go to the bottom of the stack. But any others stay in their normal order, with earlier-played ones higher in the stack, so they are battled in the same order in which they were played.


Does the goblin get the support from the roaches, and once the goblin is dead, the roaches then support the ogre?

That's right - except with the stacking in the proper order, the Ogre would be supported first, and then the Goblin.

According to the original rules as printed in the rulebook, the Roaches would support both of the other monsters at the same time. (In the case of Deadly or Assist, it would make a difference if you were battling both monsters together using an Area Effect shtick.) But the support rules were changed in the FAQ so that each supporting monster only supports the topmost monster that it could support at any one time, to prevent Horde clusters from getting ridiculously huge.


Also, does the support ability only count for monsters on the battle stack in one room, or are monsters supported by all the monsters on the floor (that apply).

All on the same floor, for as long as they remain alive and on that floor.

[Nowell]

That makes more sense. So basically say I have a stack with 2 goblins that are supported by goblins for +2 A/D, and then a normal goblin under them. The top goblin would have +4 A/D, and the next goblin would have +2 A/D? And the part about monsters only being able to support one monster at a time is basically only to keep horde under control (since I don't see any other way it would matter).

also I saw a question earlier in here and made me wonder. when starting your movement, and there is a monster in your room (say, you hid from that monster last turn) are you required to fight the monster? Or can you move out of that room. also, if you are moving through a room with a monster, you don't have to fight it unless you end your movement there, right?

[prj]

So basically say I have a stack with 2 goblins that are supported by goblins for +2 A/D, and then a normal goblin under them. The top goblin would have +4 A/D, and the next goblin would have +2 A/D?

Right.


And the part about monsters only being able to support one monster at a time is basically only to keep horde under control (since I don't see any other way it would matter).

It would matter if you attack multiple monsters at once with an Area Effect shtick. But the motivation for the change was Horde, yes.


when starting your movement, and there is a monster in your room (say, you hid from that monster last turn) are you required to fight the monster?

No, you can run away in search of a more favorable fight (or no fight at all) in another room.


also, if you are moving through a room with a monster, you don't have to fight it unless you end your movement there, right?

Right. Unless someone plays a Failed Spot Check on you.

[Nowell]

And one last one. Monsters on the stack, can only be supported by monsters beneath them? So in that goblin scenario, that top goblin wouldn't support the goblin under it (if I were using an area of effect spell). Basically saying, whatever is on top of the stack can only be supported by things under it.

[prj]

Monsters on the stack, can only be supported by monsters beneath them?

No, a higher/earlier monster can support a lower/later one. That can make a difference for Area Effect, as you said, and also Horde.

[Nowell]

Ok, so just let me see if I understand. Say I have a battle size 3. The top monster is a goblin with horde, supported by goblins. The second is the same monster, and the third is a goblin that gets +2 A/D for each goblin. I'd play the first one, then the second one would support the top one, and the top would support the second one (adding +2 to battle size). 2 forgettable goblins are played next. They support the horde (once each) to give +2 to the battle size. After that, some undead/kobolds or something are played that don't support anything. Making the total battle size a 7. I kill the first goblin with horde, can continue to kill the second. I'm now fighting the goblin that gets +2 A/D for each supporting goblin. But since the forgettable goblins supported the horde goblins earlier, do they now support the +2 A/D goblin? Or do you choose what creature is supporting what creature when they are played?

[prj]

But since the forgettable goblins supported the horde goblins earlier, do they now support the +2 A/D goblin?

Yes. At any one time, they support the topmost Goblin-supportable monster.

[Nowell]

Alrighty. Think I understand it. But the goblins can only support 1 monster at a time, so if they support the horde, they don't support the +2 A/D in the case of an AoE attack? But they do support the topmost goblin later in the battle.

[prj]

But the goblins can only support 1 monster at a time, so if they support the horde, they don't support the +2 A/D in the case of an AoE attack?

Right.


But they do support the topmost goblin later in the battle.

If you battle them one at a time (no Area Effect), so that the Assisted goblin survives longer than the ones on top of it and becomes the topmost monster remaining, then yes.

[Nowell]

I think I get it. and horde is only effected at the beginning of the battle. so say, 3 goblins support the horde, and I kill the top monster, those 3 goblins now support the +2 A/D goblin that's now on top of the stack? just those 3 that supported the horde first round can't support the +2 A/D in the case of an AOE attack

[prj]

Right, you got it.

[Nowell]

Hooray! Haha Thanks for all the help!

[megamuphen]

Hello!

If I am standing in The Hall of Mysterious Runes (which adds +2 attack and +2 defense when using a magic shtick in the room) and making a ranged attack in to the next room over with a magic shtick, do I get the bonus?

Clearly I am in the room. And clearly I am using a magic shtick. But it isn't clear if I am "using a magic shtick in this room."

Thanks!

[apegamer]

If I am standing in The Hall of Mysterious Runes (which adds +2 attack and +2 defense when using a magic shtick in the room) and making a ranged attack in to the next room over with a magic shtick, do I get the bonus?


You DO get the bonus.

Conversely (inversely?) you do NOT get the bonus if you're using a magic shtick INTO the Hall of Mysterious Runes from another room.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Q: Does the sthicks (or screw this) that flip others players card (like party leader veto) is able to flip card that usually don´t flip?
For example, can Roy flip Belkar's Twin daggers of Doom?

[apegamer]

Yes, they do.

[prj]

Q: Does the sthicks (or screw this) that flip others players card (like party leader veto) is able to flip card that usually don´t flip?

Yes. According to the rulebook (page 22), shticks that usually don't flip "can be flipped by a shtick or Screw This! card that says it can flip any shtick". If the card that does the flipping doesn't specify any restrictions on which shticks it can flip, then it can flip any shtick.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Yes. According to the rulebook (page 22), shticks that usually don't flip "can be flipped by a shtick or Screw This! card that says it can flip any shtick". If the card that does the flipping doesn't specify any restrictions on which shticks it can flip, then it can flip any shtick.
Oh, ok. Sorry about that. I had read the rulebook but forgot about it (and didn't knew where to look for them). Actually, i thought it was like that until i realized that Party Leader Veto + Fearless Leader is a nasty way to shut down annoying players (like Belkar, vetoing his Twin Daggers of Doom).

Also, it´s probably stated in the rules that you can trade loot between players outside the standard specify rules, right?. Asking won't hurt (since i don't have the rulebook here but i do have internet). Like V asking for loot (not necessarily he/she drools over) to buff one of your shticks besides one loot (which drools over) for the +2 assistance?

[prj]

Also, it´s probably stated in the rules that you can trade loot between players outside the standard specify rules, right?

No, that isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules. If there's a deal that involves loot changing hands (like getting healed by Durkon), the rules or cards will say so.


Asking won't hurt (since i don't have the rulebook here but i do have internet).

You can download PDFs of the rulebook and FAQ (http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/oots-dod.html). Unfortunately, in the rulebook, even the text is made of images, so you can't search for key words. You have to know where to look, just like with the paper copy.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

About V's shtick, Evan's Spiked Tentacles Of Forced Intrusion, what is the use to nullify the Flying ability? I get to see the rewards for V for canceling multiattack , but V´s shticks are not affected by range (except the quarter-staff, which you'd only be using against enchanted monsters, but Evan's Spiked Tentacles Of Forced Intrusion can't be used against them).

If you can play the card at any time, i see the point: you can use it to help other player with range 0 shticks deal with flying monsters.
But if you can only play it in your turn, it seems useless. Though, i interpret that shticks are only used on your turn unless stated otherwise (like shticks that prevent wounds).

Either way, I'd appreciate an explanation of how this shticks works and it's intent.


No, that isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules. If there's a deal that involves loot changing hands (like getting healed by Durkon), the rules or cards will say so.
Then the Buff spell of V looks such a waste. I mean, the only purpose of this shtick is to extra assist a player just because you feel so.

[prj]

If you can play the card (Evan's Tentacles) at any time, i see the point: you can use it to help other player with range 0 shticks deal with flying monsters.

Yes, I believe that's the case here.


Though, i interpret that shticks are only used on your turn unless stated otherwise (like shticks that prevent wounds).

Shticks are used whenever they say they can be used. Wound-preventing shticks would typically be useful on your own turn, but could be useful on someone else's turn - say, for a multi-target trap, or for a battle where you assisted, the other player lost, and someone played There's No "I" in Team.

There are some printing mistakes - Roy's Party Leader Veto and Haley's Second in Command are to be used only at the start of their own turns. But those are explicitly mentioned in the FAQ. If the rules or the card don't say it's limited to your own turn, and if there hasn't been a correction adding that limitation, then there is no limitation.


Then the Buff spell of V looks such a waste. I mean, the only purpose of this shtick is to extra assist a player just because you feel so.

Well, you use Buff Spell while assisting. Since you're assisting, loot can change hands. So you might demand some extra Drool Factors' worth of loot for the use of Buff Spell. Or you might use it to outbid another potential assister - if Roy can get assistance from either Durkon or V, and V's offering to Buff, then V's more likely to get to assist (and thus get some loot, even if it's just one Drool Factor). Or you could just be magnanimous - since V has to rest relatively often, it certainly doesn't hurt to earn some goodwill.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

So, it's me still around here! Thanks for the answers so far :smallsmile:

Question:

You can't move into a room and attack a player if there are monsters in the same room but (if your room is clear from monsters) can you make ranged attacks against a player with monsters in the same room?

Also, Belkar's Keen Nose doesn't specify how the monster to be shown is chosen. The player can choose which one to show you then? (showing you the same one over and over).

[prj]

(if your room is clear from monsters) can you make ranged attacks against a player with monsters in the same room?

Yes. If you don't move, and there are no monsters in your room, then you can attack any target within your range. (Rulebook, page 12.)


Also, Belkar's Keen Nose doesn't specify how the monster to be shown is chosen. The player can choose which one to show you then? (showing you the same one over and over).

That's my interpretation.

[apegamer]

Also, Belkar's Keen Nose doesn't specify how the monster to be shown is chosen. The player can choose which one to show you then? (showing you the same one over and over).



That's my interpretation.

That's a correct interpretation.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Ok, so this came up.
Xykon Special does not allow you to refuse assisting a player. Can this be done through Screw This! cards? Like playing Solo Challenge or Double Cross?

[prj]

Xykon Special does not allow you to refuse assisting a player. Can this be done through Screw This! cards? Like playing Solo Challenge or Double Cross?

By my reading, those are both legal. You're only required to give assistance if the battling player asks, and Solo Challenge stops them from asking. Double Cross seems to me like it would be against the spirit of the no-refusal rule, and maybe it should be amended to prohibit its use for Xykon, but it seems to be ok as written.

[FreeloadingSausage]

The trap triggers in the room in which it is revealed, as normal. If V and all other players are outside of the trap's Range, then it has no effect.

The Giant posted this a while ago in response to a question about sending V's raven to grab a loot in another room.

I am very, very, super sorry if this has been addressed before now, but 8 pages is a lot to read through.

If V sends his raven to grab a loot in a room with Elan and Belkar present, and Blackwing draws a loot that is a single-target trap, who does the trap target?

I presume it targets Blackwing the Raven, and has no effect, but is there an official ruling somewhere?

EDIT: Also, the FAQ currently states that monsters cannot provide support for more than one monster in the same room, in an effort to cut down on horde size.

The rule as stated is that the monster closest to the top receives the support. In the case of Battle Size it does not matter, but in the case of receiving bonuses to Attack and Defense, do lower monsters inherit the support if the higher monster is killed?

Example: Goblin A gains support from other goblins in the form of +2 Attack and Defense, and is played first. Goblin B also gains support in the same way, but is played second, and therefore does not gain the support from other goblins. Goblins C-Z are played afterwards turning Goblin A into one bad dude. One of the PCs takes out Goblin A. Does Goblin B now gain the support since he's at the top of the stack?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

I presume it targets Blackwing the Raven, and has no effect, but is there an official ruling somewhere?Not sure, but i'm pretty sure that you can infer from the official saying it works that ways (at least that's what i did).

Does Goblin B now gain the support since he's at the top of the stack?Yes., AFAIK.

[prj]

in the case of receiving bonuses to Attack and Defense, do lower monsters inherit the support if the higher monster is killed?

Yes, according to the FAQ: "Should the Woodcutter be defeated, all monsters that were supporting the Woodcutter are now free to immediately support the next monster in the stack, the Teenagers."

I believe there's a mistake in the following example in the FAQ, though: "Player 4 plays Demon Roach. Demon Roach supports Demon Roach King, not Orc Summoner, because Demon Roach King is closer to the top of the stack." This wouldn't happen, since Demon Roach King immediately moves to the bottom of the stack when played.

[Kalir]

Durkon's shtick Goblinthwacker... does it let him attack goblins just outside of his normal range with Thor's Hammer?

[prj]

Durkon's shtick Goblinthwacker... does it let him attack goblins just outside of his normal range with Thor's Hammer?

Yes. Goblinthwacker boosts the hammer against goblins, and the hammer's boost effect includes extending its range.

[LeonardQuirm]

Hi! I bought the game a few weeks ago and have played it a fair few times since then (the joys of being a student and in the summer holidays...) A few questions have come up though, so I was wondering if anyone could give me an official ruling or at least an alternative interpretation on them? If anyone's interested, I've put the interpretations of me and my friends in italics after the questions.

Firstly, Haley's shtick "Secret Crush" - what happens if Elan's an NPC? Does it work so long as she's on the floor that Elan as an NPC is (pretty powerful in a 2 player game, where both players tend to be on the same floor)? Or does it only work if Nale's on the same floor? We decided (through roll of the dice) that it didn't work for NPC Elan, making it, TBH, a fairly useless schtick if Elan's not being played.

Also, her "Disarm Traps" - when disarming, you get +4 to your roll; does this also cumulate with other things for evading traps? If so and you get it with both The Stick loot and Good Reflexes schtick, you've got +8 on trying to disarm traps; pretty good odds... We decided that one could work and one couldn't; I can't remember which way round but I think it might have been "Good Reflexes" stacked (since reflexes are good for disarming traps) but The Stick didn't.

V's "Ambiguous Gender" - does this have to happen whenever you're attacked (and have the schtick in play)? Or can you choose to not let it happen, say if you thought you had a reasonable chance of winning? And if it does come into effect, could you still play "Saw it Coming" first if you had it? I'd imagine "Ambiguous Gender" has to be used whenever you're attacked, regardless of desire, and there's no text to say you can flip it when you want; however, since the player's already attacked you you could use "Saw it Coming" first, then play out "Ambiguous Gender".

Elan's "Gratuitous Nudity" - I know that in the FAQ it says when he flips it he has to close his own eyes, but I'd question that personally...the idea is by being naked, no-one (except Haley) wants to look so they close their eyes; why would Elan close his? If it weren't for the Haley exception, I'd agree with Elan closing his eyes as well, but as it is... Also, it says it counts as a boost for his "Hide" shtick. Is that whenever it's in play? Or is it any point in the turn when it's flipped (the monsters close their eyes too)? Or just the first battle? I'd imagine from the way everything else works, it would boost "Hide" so long as it is unflipped...but that seems somewhat counter-intuitive...

That'll do for the moment! I'll probably be back to ask for more later, but any answers to the above would be great. It's a fantastic game though, so long as you've got the time to play it!

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Hey there! As a fellow gamer i'll say what i have been ruling on the subject.

Firstly, Haley's shtick "Secret Crush" - what happens if Elan's an NPC?In our games we made no distinction about it, she always gets the bonus as long as she is on the same floor as Elan (PC or NPC).

Also, her "Disarm Traps" - when disarming, you get +4 to your roll; does this also cumulate with other things for evading traps?Hell no! It is already good enough as it is! The logic behind this is that the other shticks give bonus to "evade" traps, not disarm, so they only apply if she fails to disarm and has to evade (with the appropriate -2 for failing to disarm).

V's "Ambiguous Gender" - does this have to happen whenever you're attacked (and have the schtick in play)? Or can you choose to not let it happen, say if you thought you had a reasonable chance of winning? And if it does come into effect, could you still play "Saw it Coming" first if you had it? I'd imagine "Ambiguous Gender" has to be used whenever you're attacked, regardless of desire, and there's no text to say you can flip it when you want; however, since the player's already attacked you you could use "Saw it Coming" first, then play out "Ambiguous Gender".This never happened to me, but i agree with your interpretation. The idea is that Ambiguous Gender makes the attack fail (thus wasting it's turn) but you still get attacked (allowing the use of a Screw This!).
About having to use it, I'd follow the same guidelines as most other shticks have (specially Roy's 'Fearless Leader' or Durkon's 'Clank clank clank'). If it is not flipped, it is in use. To not use it, it should be flipped. If it is not indicated in the card that you can flip it,then you can't and have to use it when it's played.

Elan's "Gratuitous Nudity" - I know that in the FAQ it says when he flips it he has to close his own eyes, but I'd question that personally...the idea is by being naked, no-one (except Haley) wants to look so they close their eyes; why would Elan close his? If it weren't for the Haley exception, I'd agree with Elan closing his eyes as well, but as it is...I agree with you here. For me Elan's shticks are more for fun that winning the game, so i don't really care much about the difference there. I mean, it's not big deal towards the game if you play that card differently really. Actually you could argue that when naked, Elan doesn't care which monsters he gets played (even by himself) because he is too high about being invisible! :smalltongue:

Also, it says it counts as a boost for his "Hide" shtick. Is that whenever it's in play? Or is it any point in the turn when it's flipped (the monsters close their eyes too)? Or just the first battle? I'd imagine from the way everything else works, it would boost "Hide" so long as it is unflipped...but that seems somewhat counter-intuitive...Yeah, it boost Hide as long as it's unflipped (in play). If you flip it, Hide loses it's boost (but they can't see which card is played on you). I don't know why you find it counter-intuitive (fluff?), there are other cards that gives bonus not really related. Haley's good reflexes works in the same way (+2 against traps, flip to avoid a wound but lose bonus).

[The Stone]

Is it possible to remove the "Xykon" special ability from Xykon using the "I forgot they could do that" card?

It sounds pretty silly at first but the rules doesn't forbid it, from what i can tell. This came up in the last game we played and after a good laugh we decided that yes, its possible to remove the "xykon" ability, which postpones the destruction of the dungeon by one turn if he is defeated (when IFTCDT is no longer i effect). What's the official ruling?

[prj]

Is it possible to remove the "Xykon" special ability from Xykon using the "I forgot they could do that" card?

I suspect it's not meant to be removable. As you say, it's allowed by a strict reading of the rules, but I think that's probably a mistake in the rules. The Giant or apegamer would have to give the official word, though.


we decided that yes, its possible to remove the "xykon" ability, which postpones the destruction of the dungeon by one turn if he is defeated (when IFTCDT is no longer i effect).

The dungeon doesn't start to collapse anyway until the turn after Xykon is defeated, so there wouldn't be any additional delay. If it is deemed legal, I think the most likely use would be for another player to do it so they can withold assistance, and hopefully get a shot at defeating Xykon themselves.

[The Stone]

The dungeon doesn't start to collapse anyway until the turn after Xykon is defeated, so there wouldn't be any additional delay. If it is deemed legal, I think the most likely use would be for another player to do it so they can withold assistance, and hopefully get a shot at defeating Xykon themselves.

Yes you're right, what i meant to say was that monsters isn't removed etc until the next players turn. This way the current player can continue to battle monsters after deteating xykon.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Well, in this case i agree that we need the word of the creators. But judging from what you propose i wouldn't allow it in my games for how abusable it can be. Roy and V can get an IFTCDT for that battle using the Sarcastic Quip Loot and could attempt to do this every game.
As an argument i would propose that it can't be affected by Screw This! card because it's a "Special" ability, not a normal one.

[chrisguyhere]

Hi, I just had the Screw This! card "I forgot they could do that" used to negate Xycon's Xycon ability. Our GM looked over the rules and after some laughs decided it wasn't forbidden by the game. But really then the game was broken. Without Xycon's ability the game doesn't end. It's what makes the dungeon collapse. Really it was only used to take the points I'd get from killing him. But looking into it further we decided the game couldn't end. Dan was declared the winner for managing to break the game. We made this account to see if something has been said about this rule.

[MergedLoki]

I have a Ranged attack question because it seems to me the rules aren't too clear on this.
If a player (say V w/a fireball) makes a ranged attack from 2 rooms away on an enemy and V loses the roll. does V take a wound for losing or because it's a ranged attack there's is no bad result for suffering defeat?

[prj]

If a player (say V w/a fireball) makes a ranged attack from 2 rooms away on an enemy and V loses the roll. does V take a wound for losing or because it's a ranged attack there's is no bad result for suffering defeat?

If the defender has sufficent range to reach the attacker, then the attacker gets wounded. (Or, if the defender is another player, it's the defender's shtick's result, which may or may not be a wound.) If the defender doesn't have enough range to reach the attacker, then the attacker is safe. See the rulebook, page 12, under "Ranged Defense".

[Kalir]

Further question about Goblinthwacker. Can you also use it to attack goblins further down in the stack just outside the normal range for Thor's Hammer? For example, if your hammer has a range of 2, and three rooms away, there's a stack with, in order, a Crunchy Taco Golem (Food type) and a Goblin with an Eel Biting It On The Nose (Goblin type), can you hit the goblin with the golem there, or do you have to destroy the golem first in some other fashion?

[prj]

Further question about Goblinthwacker. Can you also use it to attack goblins further down in the stack just outside the normal range for Thor's Hammer?

No mechanism in the game lets you skip the top monster in a stack to battle one underneath it.

The boost effect on Thor's Hammer does include extending its range, so if there's a Goblin at the top of a stack that's three rooms away, and Goblinthwacker would boost your range up to 3, then you can battle that Goblin.

[jscheibel]

This was already asked ....




Originally Posted by Moebius
More questions about Area Effect Shticks...

Can you Defend against multiple monsters with Turn Undead or Poorly-Planned Illusion? The only other AES (so far), Fireball, has N/A for Defense, but those two have a value. Turn Undead is actually better in Defense than Attack.


and answered...
Yes, you can Defend using an Area Effect Shtick, if the shtick has a value for Defense. This would happen if you walk into a room of Monsters, or if you are attacked at Range by a Monster via the "Ambush!" Screw This! card.


....
but my question was, when denfending with an area of effect do you select the highest attacking value in the stack like you would if for defense if you were attacking?

Also I saw this asked and didnt see an answer, but it happened in our first game:


A question came up last night regarding the "Ghost of Dorukan" card in the Xykon's Lair deck in conjunction with Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion schtick. The wording on the "Ghost of Dorukan" card specifies that the boon is granted to the player who "kills the last monster in the room." In this case, Elan had killed the first monster he faced out of four in the room with a different battle schtick, but then used Poorly-Planned Illusion to move the rest of the monsters to another room.

While it seems to me to make sense that Elan get the boon, the wording on the card would imply otherwise. Should the card say "defeats" instead of "kills"? Does the Ghost stay put until a new battle in the room is triggered and the new "last" monster in the room is actually killed? Or is there some other interpretation I'm missing? Elan DID kill a monster, but at the time he killed it, it wasn't the last one in the room. The last monster in the room wasn't killed, but moved to a different room. Thanks in advance!


we played it like this: he moved with the stack as it felt "right", but regardless would like some clarification please :)

[prj]

when denfending with an area of effect do you select the highest attacking value in the stack like you would if for defense if you were attacking?

I'd say yes. This should probably go in the "rulebook errata" in the FAQ, since the wording of the rules only explicitly covers the case where the player is attaacking.

[King.Smurf]

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If there's a battle going on, and for some reason you don't defeat it and it's still in the room (hide shtick fx), can I then just flee the monster when it's my turn next? Or do someone else need to defeat the monster beofre I can go away

[PePe QuiCoSE]

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If there's a battle going on, and for some reason you don't defeat it and it's still in the room (hide shtick fx), can I then just flee the monster when it's my turn next? Or do someone else need to defeat the monster beofre I can go away
Yes, you can. And you can move through rooms with monsters. It's in the rules, you could check it there. If you stay in the room, you have to Attack (not defend) the monster.