Rules Questions

[Frogwarrior]

The Broken Weapon Screw This: If I use Broken Weapon to, say, break Roy's Greenhilt Sword, and he trades in monsters for a schtick and chooses another copy of Greenhilt Sword, does it come into play flipped or not?

Creative Motivation: If I use Creative Motivation to ask Elan for help, do I get the bonus from Bard Song?

I'm guessing Roy's Fearless Leader ability can only give the positive effect (heal 1 Wound or unflip 1 Schtick) on a per-battle basis, not a per-Loot-card basis. Is that right?

If you're attacked while resting or missing a turn, can you use Battle Schticks to defend yourself and potentially inflict damage?
Relatedly, if you're attacked and dealt damage you still get the benefits of resting, right?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

The Broken Weapon Screw This: If I use Broken Weapon to, say, break Roy's Greenhilt Sword, and he trades in monsters for a schtick and chooses another copy of Greenhilt Sword, does it come into play flipped or not?As the card is written, you can draw and play new copies of the same shtick but you can't unflip them until you reach the entrance; but here it could collide RAW with RAI. So, as long as there is no clarification i'd say play it as RAW.


Creative Motivation: If I use Creative Motivation to ask Elan for help, do I get the bonus from Bard Song?No, the card says the player gives you a +2/+2, not an assist.


I'm guessing Roy's Fearless Leader ability can only give the positive effect (heal 1 Wound or unflip 1 Schtick) on a per-battle basis, not a per-Loot-card basis. Is that right?Yes, only once since 1 assist can include several loot cards.


If you're attacked while resting or missing a turn, can you use Battle Schticks to defend yourself and potentially inflict damage?
Relatedly, if you're attacked and dealt damage you still get the benefits of resting, right?Yes and Yes. You do have the -4 penalty and need enough range to hit them. And if you are forced to flee, you don't get the heal since you never finish resting.

[Volcanoris]

Just bought this game and played it for the first time with some friends, awesome game, but I had one question that I couldn't find an answer for anywhere.

When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply? I've found nothing in the rules, only that you can only use one battle shtick at a time.

The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.

This is pretty nasty, so I'm assuming it goes against the spirit of the rules, but there's no rule we could find, unless we missed it digging through the rules and errata about 4 times, that keeps passive non-battle shticks from going up exponentially rather than linearly.

[Frogwarrior]

Just bought this game and played it for the first time with some friends, awesome game, but I had one question that I couldn't find an answer for anywhere.

When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply? I've found nothing in the rules, only that you can only use one battle shtick at a time.

The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.

This is pretty nasty, so I'm assuming it goes against the spirit of the rules, but there's no rule we could find, unless we missed it digging through the rules and errata about 4 times, that keeps passive non-battle shticks from going up exponentially rather than linearly.

What you're missing is that multiple copies of a schtick, are not separate schticks. Additional copies only provide the boost. So with two copies, you only have one "Leaping Attack" schtick. You just have two cards' (one and a boost) worth of Leaping Attack.

[Volcanoris]

What you're missing is that multiple copies of a schtick, are not separate schticks. Additional copies only provide the boost. So with two copies, you only have one "Leaping Attack" schtick. You just have two cards' (one and a boost) worth of Leaping Attack.

There's actually nothing anywhere in the rules or errata, unless it's not in a section about schticks, that says anything that would imply they aren't seperate shticks. It simply states that a shtick is boosted once for every shtick with the same name you have in play that is face-up and since all copies of Leaping Attack are face up they should all boost each other. If I'm missing something that is actually in the rules please list a page so I can reference.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

If I'm missing something that is actually in the rules please list a page so I can reference.Page 23 of the rulebook. The mini-comic is quite clear on how boost works.

[Volcanoris]

Page 23 of the rulebook. The mini-comic is quite clear on how boost works.

Meh, clear? No, that's vague at best, it's specifically referencing a battle schtick, and only says that the extra copies boost the first, not that they can't be used, they simply can't in that scenario since only one battle schtick can be used at a time. The only reference to multiples of a passive schtick is the bard song at the end of the comic, and again, that's vague at best on how they work. I'm sticking with the extras do nothing but boost, but I was hoping for something more clear cut than "you might want to go tell Elan all about that... He just drew his fourth Bard Song shtick" especially since there's nothing to that effect in the actual rules text.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

You know, you asked for a reference, there are more appropriate answers than "Meh" when you don't like what was offered. Still, it does answer your question.

The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.Since you have only 1 Twin Daggers of Doom (boosted by having 2 shticks, like the comics says) the benefit of Leaping Attack applies only once. You don't have 2 TDoD but 1 boosted, therefore you can only apply any bonus to the one you have.
Even in the scenario you described, you would be applying the boost to both TDoD but you can only use one of them for battles, so there is no way to add it up.

[Volcanoris]

You know, you asked for a reference, there are more appropriate answers than "Meh" when you don't like what was offered. Still, it does answer your question.
Since you have only 1 Twin Daggers of Doom (boosted by having 2 shticks, like the comics says) the benefit of Leaping Attack applies only once. You don't have 2 TDoD but 1 boosted, therefore you can only apply any bonus to the one you have.
Even in the scenario you described, you would be applying the boost to both TDoD but you can only use one of them for battles, so there is no way to add it up.

Actually it doesn't clearly answer my question, since Twin Daggers of Doom isn't boosted by Leaping Attack, LA just says TDoD gains +1 range and +1 attack. The only thing being boosted is the LAs but since they're not a battle schtick, or one that is flipped to trigger like Halfling Rage, there are no rules specifically stating that they don't all trigger, merely the vague reference in the comic, which points clearly towards the rule on battle schticks and brushes up against the rules for passive schticks, hence the "meh." I'm not sure I'm following your example, but nowhere did I apply LA to more than one TDoD, I just applied all of the LAs to one TDoD, which is the very action in question.

The simplest, and most balanced, interpretation is that yes, all copies of a schtick beyond the first are absorbed by the first original as a boost, but the only clear example of this is with a battle schtick, which already uses slightly different rules than other schticks. So, as I've already stated, I agree this is how it should work, even though I think it leaves Belkar a little underpowered, versus being overpowered, but that's a different matter, but I would like a definite reference that the rule does in fact work this way, and your reference, as stated, was vague in my opinion. Maybe you don't agree, and I do appreciate your, and all other, helpful attempts to clarify, but when I was looking for something clear cut and I get something vague, "meh" is the lackluster, "I'm unconvinced" kind of response I'm going to give, sorry if that particular onomatopoeia insulted you, never thought I'd use that word in a sentence.

[prj]

When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply?

You're right that there's no explicit, unambiguous statement in the rules that limits it to one (plus boosts). But it seems clear enough that that's the intent. If you look through the past messages in this thread, there might be something from apegamer or TheGiant that would confirm it - probably not explicitly, but they might have given an example that fits this interpretation only.

If this was different for battle vs. non-battle shticks, that would certainly merit an explicit mention, and there isn't any. Leaping Attack, Great Cleavage, Sneak Attack, and especially Bard Song would be rather overpowered if each one counted independently as well as boosting all the others. Great Cleavage is arguably overpowered already.

It could make for an interesting variation, though, if we throw in something to help V and Durkon stay competitive. Elan would need some help too, though, since inflating the power of Bard Song only helps the people he assists, not him.

[Wanderlust]

You're right that there's no explicit, unambiguous statement in the rules that limits it to one (plus boosts). But it seems clear enough that that's the intent. If you look through the past messages in this thread, there might be something from apegamer or TheGiant that would confirm it - probably not explicitly, but they might have given an example that fits this interpretation only.

If this was different for battle vs. non-battle shticks, that would certainly merit an explicit mention, and there isn't any. Leaping Attack, Great Cleavage, Sneak Attack, and especially Bard Song would be rather overpowered if each one counted independently as well as boosting all the others. Great Cleavage is arguably overpowered already.

It could make for an interesting variation, though, if we throw in something to help V and Durkon stay competitive. Elan would need some help too, though, since inflating the power of Bard Song only helps the people he assists, not him.

I agree with your statement. To me it would seem silly to assume that each individual shtick was independent and was boosted by each other shtick of the same name in play. The efforts to keep track of the bonuses, let alone writing those rules out clearly enough that they would be interpreted that way by the majority of players, seem staggering. I know in my groups we've never had this notion, but hey, everyone thinks differently.

[Elurindel]

I may just not be looking at the manual hard enough, but how often do you replenish your battle deck? And are the Screw This! cards mixed in with the monsters?

[prj]

how often do you replenish your battle deck?

Do you mean each player's Battle Hand? When it's your turn to play a monster and you don't have any left, you then discard any remaining Screw This! cards and draw a new battle hand of seven cards. (Rulebook page 11, under "Playing Monsters", third bullet.

If you mean the Battle Deck that hands are drawn from, you reshuffle all the discarded monsters and Screw This! cards when the deck is empty. The original rules said to do that immediately when the deck runs out, but the FAQ updates that rule so you wait until the end of the turn. That's so a big monster stack that grows extremely large with Horde can't grow indefinitely.


And are the Screw This! cards mixed in with the monsters?

Yes. Monsters that are turned in for shticks and Screw This! cards are discarded into one pile, which is then reshuffled if the Battle Deck runs out.

[Magnema]

Is it possible to remove the "Xykon" special ability from Xykon using the "I forgot they could do that" card?

It sounds pretty silly at first but the rules doesn't forbid it, from what i can tell. This came up in the last game we played and after a good laugh we decided that yes, its possible to remove the "xykon" ability, which postpones the destruction of the dungeon by one turn if he is defeated (when IFTCDT is no longer i effect). What's the official ruling?

Additional Question: If it is legal...
Can you discard him w/ the Muskrat 3000 or move him w/ PPI? In the first case, who gets Bragging Points?

Also, on p. 14, in the "player attacks" example, you made a mathematical error in the math problem itself: 9+2 is NOT 13! (or was this supposed to be a joke, looking at Elan on the side saying "Addition... my old foe. We meet again"?)

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Additional Question: If it is legal...
Can you discard him w/ the Muskrat 3000 or move him w/ PPI? In the first case, who gets Bragging Points?
No, you can't use Muskrat for that. I think it's somewhere in the rules. I think it's been rules that you are able to move it with PPI but you still need to kill him.

Also, on p. 14, in the "player attacks" example, you made a mathematical error in the math problem itself: 9+2 is NOT 13! (or was this supposed to be a joke, looking at Elan on the side saying "Addition... my old foe. We meet again"?)The rulebook has some mistakes, like the one you pointed out, yes.

[Syklos]

I have a question about the Banjo the Clown schtick for Elan. How exactly is it supposed to work? Does the bonus from the vote continue through the end of the turn, or does it only last for the single die roll of the current battle? Reading the card, my group can see it working either way.

Thanks all.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

It flips, so it doesn't matter. It lasts until it's used once when it's flipped. Unless you play "A Good Laugh" in which case i guess the vote still counts towards the bouns.

[Magnema]

No, you can't use Muskrat for that. I think it's somewhere in the rules.

Nowhere do I see this - besides the Xykon special ability, which was canceled. It is not in the "Xykon the Lich" section, at any rate.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Nowhere do I see this - besides the Xykon special ability, which was canceled. It is not in the "Xykon the Lich" section, at any rate.Ah, ok. Thing is i don't consider canceling Xykon Special legal.

[Dustin1280]

I would like an official ruling on these if possible.

Question 1:
You have three unflipped fireballs available to use and you shoot a room 4 squares away. The fireballs are boosted by 2

The fireball adds 5 to your attack roll and you hit all 4 monsters in the other room (thanks to boost).
For simplicity sake they all have 5 defense and no abilities that hinder your ability to kill them.

Do you flip fireball after you declare attack or at the very end of combat?

If it's the latter, then DUNDUNDUN can effectively remove a boost card so you are only capable of hitting 3 of the 4 monsters. -- I think this is the correct answer but my group disagrees.

If it is the first then even if DUNDUNDUN is played, the boost has already taken affect and will not prevent you from hitting all 4, since you already played the boosted card.

Question 2:
A loot item offers 3x available move speed if you discard it (i forgot the name)
I ruled that you could move UP TO 9 squares, some people in my group disagreed and said that you MUST MOVE 9 squares.

Question 3:
My last question is more of a request of people who have added their own house rules to this game.

It seems like Haley is the best character in the game, any recommendations to nerf her a little, or do you guys disagree.

V on the other hand seems to be lacking, do you think adding +1 attack to the normal boost of the fireball will make him completely unbalanced? Or will it effectively give him the push he needs to have a chance of winning?

[prj]

I would like an official ruling on these if possible.

That's not me, but maybe this will help until The Giant or apegamer chimes in.


Do you flip fireball after you declare attack or at the very end of combat?

At the end. Page 15 of the rules puts the flipping under "aftermath".


If it's the latter, then DUNDUNDUN can effectively remove a boost card so you are only capable of hitting 3 of the 4 monsters.

Correct, as long as it's played before the die roll.



A loot item offers 3x available move speed if you discard it (i forgot the name)
I ruled that you could move UP TO 9 squares, some people in my group disagreed and said that you MUST MOVE 9 squares.

That's the Gourd of Speed. I would say anything up to 9 is fine. But if someone wants to be more strict, they could only say that you can move 0, 3, 6, or 9. Since you normally have the option of moving 1 or 2 spaces, triple that means you have the option of moving 3 or 6. You're not forced to move 3 spaces without the Gourd, so you're not forced to move 9 with it. The only arguable bit is whether you can move 4, 5, 7, or 8 spaces, since those aren't exactly triple.


It seems like Haley is the best character in the game, any recommendations to nerf her a little, or do you guys disagree.

Well, she is one of the easier characters to play (along with Roy). Her starting battle shticks are the strongest, and (along with Durkon) she's pretty well-balanced between attack and defense. But she doesn't stay the strongest in a long game, and she doesn't have time to amass lots of loot in a short game. A little nerfing might be ok, but not too much.



V on the other hand seems to be lacking, do you think adding +1 attack to the normal boost of the fireball will make him completely unbalanced? Or will it effectively give him the push he needs to have a chance of winning?

V isn't hurting for attack. If anything, a little extra defense would help, especially in the early game. Maybe let Magic Misslie start with a base defense of 2, but then knock the boost defense down to just +1.

[Dustin1280]

Well, she is one of the easier characters to play (along with Roy). Her starting battle shticks are the strongest, and (along with Durkon) she's pretty well-balanced between attack and defense. But she doesn't stay the strongest in a long game, and she doesn't have time to amass lots of loot in a short game. A little nerfing might be ok, but not too much.



V isn't hurting for attack. If anything, a little extra defense would help, especially in the early game. Maybe let Magic Misslie start with a base defense of 2, but then knock the boost defense down to just +1.

Regarding Haley, I'm not exactly sure how to nerf her, ideas?

Regarding V, I'm trying to follow the character archetypes, V is not a defender and really shouldn't get a bonus defense. He is however an attacker, the problem is loot is an issue for V because he does all his damage at range. So by adding the +1 attack to the boost for the fireball, this should allow him to achieve monster destruction easier, and he can concentrate on Loot cards after wiping out a floor...

[Frogwarrior]

I got a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to. Can "Screw This" cards that can be played "At any time," such as The Kobold and the Brave or Get Angry, be played AFTER the dice are rolled but BEFORE the results are applied?

As I see it, the answer is no, both from the Official Word that cards like Halfling Rage cannot be used in this way, and that Forgotten Bonus specifically says it CAN be used in this way, implying that the others cannot.

[prj]

Can "Screw This" cards that can be played "At any time," such as The Kobold and the Brave or Get Angry, be played AFTER the dice are rolled but BEFORE the results are applied?

Once the dice are rolled, you can still play cards, but they can no longer affect that battle, because you're no longer battling - you're just figuring out what the results were. Official confirmation here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3349374#430)

[Vix]

Question:
A player sets off a trap with a range sufficient to reach another player who was resting. I've been playing that the resting player suffers the -4 defense penalty even though it's "evading" and not "defending". This makes it impossible to beat most of the traps in this way though those traps were already very difficult to evade. It seems to me that it's in the spirit of resting though not everyone agrees on this.
Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?

[prj]

Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?

No - the rules explain what to do for a trap, and they don't mention any changes for resting. They also don't mention applying any battle modifiers to the evasion roll. So I'd say there isn't supposed to be any difference when resting. The -4 penalty is only for battling on defense. I agree that some penalty would make sense for the theme and spirit, and you can certainly house-rule it that way, but it's not in the official rules.

If you want to use an evade penalty while resting, but -4 is too much, you could try, say, -2.

[Vix]

^Thankyou, I shall use -2, seems fair.

I have another question concerning the battle hand
The rules state to draw a new battle hand when you can no longer play a monster but it always assumes you still have unused screw this cards, saying discard any unused screw this cards from your hand etc. But what if you play your last screw this card or a monster and are left without a hand. can you draw a new battle hand immediately? at the end of the current turn? or should you wait without a hand until you're called on to play a monster and then proceed as the rules state?


| Thanks for clearing that up for me
V

[PePe QuiCoSE]

or should you wait without a hand until you're called on to play a monster and then proceed as the rules state?that´s the right one.

[DancingMonkey]

I'm busy working my way through the thread now to see if this is answered, but figured I would post it for a quicker response:

After getting through the first few pages here and having the rule about attacking Monsters with a ranged shtick that is greater than their own weapon and their inability to defend brought to light, this came to mind:

Since Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" adds +1 to his range is he then unable to take damage from a Monster who's weapon is only a range of 0?

[prj]

Since Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" adds +1 to his range is he then unable to take damage from a Monster who's weapon is only a range of 0?

He won't take damage from a range-0 monster if he's actually attacking from a range of more than 0 (that is, from another room). Simply using a shtick that's capable of such an attack, but doing it from the same room, doesn't protect him.

[DancingMonkey]

I thought I had read an answer to this question previously, but after searching for "Fireball" again I can't find what I'm looking for.

If V has a once-boosted Fireball (2 copies of the shtick in play) - after using it, does he flip both copies or just one? Meaning could he use a boosted version, and then have a "regular" version left to use before resting?

[prj]

If V has a once-boosted Fireball (2 copies of the shtick in play) - after using it, does he flip both copies or just one? Meaning could he use a boosted version, and then have a "regular" version left to use before resting?

Right, only one flips per battle. The rulebook gives an example of this with Durkon using Thor's Lightning on page 22.

[Roxysteve]

Forgive me if this has come up before. I have attempted to search the thread for what I'm looking for but the engine keeps dumping me at the link for this forum and I haven't the energy to wade the entire forum. I'd be happy to be linked to a previous reply that explains what I'm after.

I was hosting a game for the first time in years at a small in-store gamecon in order to kick up sales for OOTS:TDOD for the store owner. I was showcasing the game for many people and so not playing it in full-press OOTS mode and the issue I'm looking at didn't arise.

In an idle moment between demos I attempted to use the changed rules for battle-size by actually playing out the examples given, and I can't make the second one (the one that starts with Mr Demon and The Demon Roach King) work the way it goes in the FAQ.

The rules as written in the FAQ say "Any given monster that could provide support to more than one other monster only actually provides support to the topmost monster in any given room". So far so simple.

Now I play out the second example.

Mr Demon is played.

Demon Roach King is played and gets support from Mr Demon so battle size is +1. Demon Roach King supports Mr Demon as per rule quoted above.

Orc Summoner is played, and the trouble starts. According to the FAQ example, the Orc Summoner gets support from the Demon Roach King, but according to the rule quoted above that support is being given to Mr Demon. Mr Demon's support is being claimed by the Demon Roach King and so cannot trigger the Orc Summoner's "Horde" ability either.

Why does the battle size continue to grow (under the FAQ rule change)?

Thanks,

Steve.

[prj]

Demon Roach King supports Mr Demon as per rule quoted above.

That's where you're deviating from the example. I think you're right, and this is a mistake in the example.

There's another snag in the example, depending on how you interpret the Henchman ability of the Demon Roach King. It says "Moves to the bottom of any battle stack", but there are different ways that could be done, and I don't know of any official examples the demonstrate which way is supposed to be standard. This example seems to ignore that part of the Henchman ability entirely.

The way I play, a Henchman goes to the bottom, and stays there, immediately when they are played. Any further monsters are played into the middle of the stack--below the previous non-Henchman monsters, but above the Henchmen. Alternatively, you might play all the monsters in order, and once the stack is complete, only then pull out the Henchmen and move them to the bottom. Depending on which method you choose, you could get a different battle size in some cases.

So I would play the example like this:

Player 1 plays Mr. Demon.
Player 2 plays Demon Roach King under Mr. Demon. The two monsters support each other, so the King's Horde raises the battle size to 3.
Player 3 plays Orc Summoner between Mr. Demon and the King. Now Mr. Demon supports the Summoner instead of the King, while the King still supports Mr. Demon. The King has no support. The battle size increases again because the Summoner is a Leader.
Player 4 plays Demon Roaches, who support Mr. Demon. The battle stack is now finished.


Using the other interpretation of Henchman, we get the same end result in this case. The first two steps work the same way, and then:

Player 3 plays Orc Summoner under the Demon Roach King. The Summoner supports no one and is supported by no one. The battle size increases again because the Summoner is a Leader.
Player 4 plays Demon Roaches, who support Mr. Demon. The battle stack is finished.
Now we move the King and Roaches to the bottom. Mr. Demon now supports the Summoner instead of the King, while the King and Roaches still supports Mr. Demon. The King has no support.


With this second Henchman interpretation, it's possible in some cases that the battle size might increase after the rearrangement, but I wouldn't play any additional monsters at that point.

It looks like when the example was written, they forgot that Mr. Demon gets support. So just pretend it's Hellpuppy instead of Mr. Demon, and then the example would almost work. It's still missing the movement of the Henchmen to the bottom of the stack, but that could be done after all the monsters are played, depending on your interpretation of Henchman.

[waterpenguin43]

I have two questions:
#1: If there is a monster and a player in a room together, can V use fireball on both?
and
#2: Can you run away from monsters (As in, not because your out of wounds)? And if so, how?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

1. No, area shticks only affect monsters (you can't PvP with fireball)
2. Not sure what you are asking...
You can walk through rooms with monsters, you only have to fight monsters that appear/are in the room you finish movement. If you start your turn in a room with monsters, you can either fight them or move to other rooms.
The most similar thing to 'avoid' a fight with monsters when a battle happens is the defense only shticks (like hide).

Hope that helps

[voldan]

Hi,
First of all I love the game.
I have played a little bit with my wife (a 2 player game) and have encountered several questions. I have read through this thread but did not quite understand everything:

1. Ranged attack
1. I am not sure I fully understand how ranged attack works when the target does not have the range:
Let us assume I am playing Haley and attacking using my longbow a monster on the other room which has a range:0 do I automatically win (as they have 0 defense in this range)? If I use the "1" always looses rule is it a draw in such a case? I saw somewhere else that the defense stays but the monster cannot win (i.e. if I lose, its a draw), is this how it is done?
Do the monster abilities apply? for example if it has impervious ability does it mean I can't use my bow? if it has support does it get the bonuses? On the one hand I would say these count because if I didn't have an appropriate shtick then I could still use items that give me bonuses as a player so the target monster should behave the same but on the other hand I saw somewhere that bloodlust would not take effect (the example showed it taking effect on an area effect when one monster had the range and the other had bloodlust and it was explained that if the bloodlust monster would have been alone then the effect would not happen).

When a monster has a range of X. Is this the defense/attack against a ranged attack or is the defense the normal one and it just says that if the range is too low we have a draw if the player looses?

For PvP ranged attack
I saw that you can range attack a player but if you win you have to be in the same room to get the loot. What is the point of making a ranged attack against a player then?

2. Battle stack

Just wanted to make sure I understand the battle stack rules:
Let us say that player A enters a room. We have a three player game (A,B,C). First player C plays monster C1, then player B plays monster B1 then player A plays monster A1.
If I understand correctly, A1 is the top monster to fight then, after it is defeated, B1 can be fought and then C1.
Does this mean that the player puts the third monster on himself (assuming of course it is not a special one that says it goes to the bottom)?

Other than support issues, am I to understand correctly that if there is a larger battle stack the only limitation it adds (barring support issues) is that the player cannot take any loot until all monsters are defeated but it does not make it any harder to fight?

3. balancing issues

In our game I played Roy and my Wife played Haley. What happened was that I only had +2 from the greenhilt sword and my wife had +3 (sneak attack + bow)
At the start of the game she got a couple of bonuses bringing her to +5. she then began to kill stuff and using assistance from the NPC (which were always available limited by loot only) she began to quickly win battles and get stronger and stronger while I stayed with my lowly +2 for a long time (as most of my shticks were relevant for more players).
Pretty soon she began wading through the monsters and I couldn't even begin to evolve.
I guess my question is what can be done to balance this. I guess when there are more players a couple of weak players would gang up on the leading one but here the stronger she got the easier it was for her to kill more monsters while I got stuck.

Anyway thanks in advance for any clarifications you can give me...

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Hi,
1. Ranged attack
1. I am not sure I fully understand how ranged attack works when the target does not have the range:
Let us assume I am playing Haley and attacking using my longbow a monster on the other room which has a range:0 do I automatically win (as they have 0 defense in this range)? If I use the "1" always looses rule is it a draw in such a case?No, the monsters always uses the values they have, the difference is that if they don't have enough range to hit you, they can't win and it's a draw. So, you win if you defeat his defense or you draw if he beats your attack. A draw means that nothing happens, same as when your defense equals monsters attack.

Do the monster abilities apply? for example if it has impervious ability does it mean I can't use my bow? if it has support does it get the bonuses?Some abilities apply, some do not: bloodlust does not but impervious does. Think about what abilities activate before battle and after battle and it gives you a good idea of the ones that apply even with insufficient range. I don't remember the official ruling, but i play that outsmart does.

When a monster has a range of X. Is this the defense/attack against a ranged attack or is the defense the normal one and it just says that if the range is too low we have a draw if the player looses? Range only means how many rooms a monster can reach, either in range attack or defense.


For PvP ranged attack
I saw that you can range attack a player but if you win you have to be in the same room to get the loot. What is the point of making a ranged attack against a player then?Taking away that last wound so they have to rush to the dungeon entrance? :belkar:


2. Battle stack

Just wanted to make sure I understand the battle stack rules:
Let us say that player A enters a room. We have a three player game (A,B,C). First player C plays monster C1, then player B plays monster B1 then player A plays monster A1.
If I understand correctly, A1 is the top monster to fight then, after it is defeated, B1 can be fought and then C1.
Does this mean that the player puts the third monster on himself (assuming of course it is not a special one that says it goes to the bottom)?No, exactly the other way around. First player puts the top monster, each player adds a monster below the rest (except for roaches). But yes, it happens that players have to play monsters on itself.


Other than support issues, am I to understand correctly that if there is a larger battle stack the only limitation it adds (barring support issues) is that the player cannot take any loot until all monsters are defeated but it does not make it any harder to fight?Pretty much, yes.



3. balancing issues
Yeah, the game is not really designed for 2 players so no balance there. Still, the Haley and Roy are the ones who fare better, it could have been the other way around if you hit Roy's boost early.

Most of these questions are in the rules, you should re-check them.

[voldan]

If you put the new monsters on the bottom and roaches always go to the bottom but only when they are played then what is the difference between them and normal monsters?

[Roxysteve]

That's where you're deviating from the example. I think you're right, and this is a mistake in the example.

Nope, it turns out I just can't read. The Orc Summoner increases the battle size because of his LEADER ability, not his unsupported HORDE ability.


There's another snag in the example, depending on how you interpret the Henchman ability of the Demon Roach King. It says "Moves to the bottom of any battle stack", but there are different ways that could be done, and I don't know of any official examples the demonstrate which way is supposed to be standard. This example seems to ignore that part of the Henchman ability entirely.

I play that the deck is played as in the book, with the card order inverted during battle stacking, then, when it gets reordered for the actual fight, the henchmen move, one at a time in the order they are encountered, to the bottom of the deck.

Thanks for responding,

Steve

[Roxysteve]

Two wishes for the excellent OOTS game.

1) If the monster type icon and name were printed on both the top *and* the bottom of each card, battle stack building would be easier because you'd be able to see all the relevant information by fanning the cards "up' as they are played. As they are printed now, you need to see both ends of each card to assess supports.

2) If the rules were formatted in the old Avalon Hill style Case System (a sort of highly indexed, print database organised in game turn sequence with built-in drill-down for detail as needed), they would be ever so much easier to use in the heat of a game. I can never find the rules I need even when the index has an entry for whatever point of order is causing a frank exchange of views, because I never know whether the issue is in the page or lurking in a sidebar.

Lest ye think I be pickin' on the OOTS:TDOD design team, I love the game and I think the design concept is sound but that it could be improved without changing it with a few tweaks.

I'm looking forward to the time I can actually play as a member of The Linear Guild too. Roll on that expansion.

[Roxysteve]

Some abilities apply, some do not: bloodlust does not but impervious does. Think about what abilities activate before battle and after battle and it gives you a good idea of the ones that apply even with insufficient range. I don't remember the official ruling, but i play that outsmart does.

And not forgetting that Belkar always ends up in the room *with* the monster after a ranged attack, which might trigger some effects that other players wouldn't see.

Steve.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

If you put the new monsters on the bottom and roaches always go to the bottom but only when they are played then what is the difference between them and normal monsters?
Roaches go to the bottom of the stack even if other monsters are played into the battle after they were placed; they go to the bottom and stay there. Every monster played after the roaches go below the already played monsters and above the roaches.

[magneticmagnum]

When can you use the 'discard loot' for its effects?

One of our members had died, and yet he wanted to instantly use his potion to heal himself. We denied it to him, claiming that loots may only be discarded as if you equip/unequipped the item.

Were we right?

[Zelthax]

I'm pretty sure the only thing you can do when fleeing the dungeon is flee.

Regardless of xp, potions, Gourd of Speed, anything, you must move three spaces towards the dungeon exit dropping loot until you get there.
So you were right to deny him the heal.
Otherwise, you do not have to have Loot equipped to discard it. You can discard at any time (unless overruled by higher priority events such as fleeing).

[sierraindigo]

Hi, I've got a situation where deciding at what point Demon Roaches scuttle down to the back of deck seems to make a potentially significant difference:

Given a new level 3 room with the following 3 cards on the Battle Stack so far:


Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Demon Roach (supporting king)


From there, the King is supported by 2 Roach henchmen, so the battle size should increase by +2 to 5.

If you play 'build the stack, then move the roaches', we might wind up with this stack:


Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Zz'dtri (Has Linear Guild support ability, so could be supported by henchmen)
Deeply Uninteresting Kobold (I probably made him up)


Then, having reached a battle size of 5, move the roaches to end up with Zz'dtri, Kobold, Roach King, Roach, Roach, with the 3 Roaches now supporting Zz'dtri.

However, if you keep the roaches at the bottom of the stack as you're building it, and play Zz'dtri into the stack giving:


Zz'dtri on top
Demon Roach King (supporting Zz'dtri)
Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)
Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)


This now means the Roach King has no support, so do we 'cancel' building the horde and stop at 4, or do we honor the earlier goal of 'Battle Size is now 5' and continue? (I've simplified this a bit - my actual situation has two other roaches in a different room, so the difference is potentially a stack of 4 vs a stack of 7)

The former (build, then scuttle) approach seems to make sense to me as there's no ambiguity involved.

[Zelthax]

This is a common issue, and my group had issues dealing with it, so we just made a ground-rule. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but it stops confusion, and that's all we really ever ask for.

While it seems simple to build the stack then move roaches to the bottom, things get tricky if anything else in the stack has the horde ability. Not because it's hard to count, but because the roaches can increase the size again, and if more support is added, you have to recount when the roaches are moved to the bottom, and so on.

I usually will play demon roaches "bottom up" when it comes to this issue- immediately place the roaches at the bottom of the deck (keeping order straight in case of demon roach king). It's a bit more to handle at first, but it avoids double counting since all cards above the roaches are immediately supported, increasing battle size as necessary. It also helps players who are playing monsters into the stack to know the support from the roaches (it's easy to forget the roaches are #3 in a stack of 9 when you're playing card #8).

------As I have finished typing this, I realize that your case concerns the "Only support the top card" rule fix, which my group doesn't use. In that case, I'm not really sure. Sorry about that. I could speculate, though! I'm good at that!

[sierraindigo]

Apologies, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about the above situation as it related to the modified support rules from the errata - your last line made me smile, as I'd been thinking "But but but only the topmost monster gets supported" whilst reading your reply up until that point. :smallsmile:

Thinking about the original rules, since everyone is supported by everyone else on the floor that qualifies, regardless of stack position, it shouldn't actually make any difference to the final stack when the roaches are moved I don't think, so whatever makes it easier to keep track of, as you suggest, seems best.

Mind you, on my first couple of games, I kept forgetting both that support was provided by everyone on the same floor, and that it could come from higher up the same stack too... doh.

[Zelthax]

:smallbiggrin:
Well, in order to prevent a perpetual-battle-size-increase scenario, my group has always played that:

Every card is supported by all cards on the floor and all cards beneath it. It seems to make more sense in Role-playing (monsters that are attacking(on top) get support from those backing it up, and cards that aren't attacking don't need support) as well as in gameplay use (cards shouldn't get supported by cards higher up in the stack because when you finally get to fight a monster in the middle of a stack, the top monsters are dead!).

This doesn't particularly affect the roach situation, except in the case of the roach king. The only issues you run into with this rule is when Elan pushes monsters around with his Illusion (we apply standard Area-attack), but by that point, the stack is already formed, and the "pushed" monster therefore supports the next monster on the stack it left, and is supported by all the monsters underneath its new stack, should there be any (but that didn't change).

It's a nice little rule-mod that hasn't failed us yet! :smallcool:

[djk]

Situation: Screw This card "Recurring Villain" is played on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated. Where does the recurring monster go?

I see four options for how this situation could be handled.

(1) Put that monster into the battle deck. Problem: the monster will be obvious because it has a black Xykon Deck back rather than a brown Battle Deck card.

(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck. Problem 1: the screw this card says to put it back into the Battle Deck. Problem 2: adding an extra monster to the Xykon Deck can lead to a situation where you explore all the rooms in Xykon's Lair, but don't find Xykon.

(3) Discard the monster. Problem: the monster cannot possibly recur.

(4) Forbid use of Recurring Villain on any monster that came from the Xykon Deck. Problem: the card says "any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon)", not "... (other than a monster from the Xykon Deck)".

Would anyone like to make a ruling (or a suggestion) on which option should apply?

[The Giant]

When can you use the 'discard loot' for its effects?

One of our members had died, and yet he wanted to instantly use his potion to heal himself. We denied it to him, claiming that loots may only be discarded as if you equip/unequipped the item.

Were we right?

Sort of.

You were right in that he could not discard the potion after he lost his last Wound, because once you lose your last Wound you can do nothing but flee the dungeon. However, you can discard Loot for the printed effect on the Loot card at any point before losing that last Wound, even on another player's turn. The only time you are limited to when you can discard Loot is when you are trading it for shticks.


Hi, I've got a situation where deciding at what point Demon Roaches scuttle down to the back of deck seems to make a potentially significant difference:

Given a new level 3 room with the following 3 cards on the Battle Stack so far:


Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Demon Roach (supporting king)


From there, the King is supported by 2 Roach henchmen, so the battle size should increase by +2 to 5.

If you play 'build the stack, then move the roaches', we might wind up with this stack:


Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Demon Roach (supporting king)
Zz'dtri (Has Linear Guild support ability, so could be supported by henchmen)
Deeply Uninteresting Kobold (I probably made him up)


Then, having reached a battle size of 5, move the roaches to end up with Zz'dtri, Kobold, Roach King, Roach, Roach, with the 3 Roaches now supporting Zz'dtri.

However, if you keep the roaches at the bottom of the stack as you're building it, and play Zz'dtri into the stack giving:


Zz'dtri on top
Demon Roach King (supporting Zz'dtri)
Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)
Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)


This now means the Roach King has no support, so do we 'cancel' building the horde and stop at 4, or do we honor the earlier goal of 'Battle Size is now 5' and continue? (I've simplified this a bit - my actual situation has two other roaches in a different room, so the difference is potentially a stack of 4 vs a stack of 7)

The former (build, then scuttle) approach seems to make sense to me as there's no ambiguity involved.

Scuttling always happens immediately. Demon Roaches scuttle to the back of the pile after each and every monster played into the room, so that you may as well place the new monster between the last non-roach and the first roach for ease.

So, the latter option is the intent of the Rules Fix from the Faq: Yes, it undercuts the Demon Roach King's ability to be supported, but cutting down on crazy Hordes was part of the point of the fix.

As to the question of do you "honor" the earlier Battle Size, the answer is no. At any point when the Battle Size dictated for the room (after taking into account Leader, Horde, etc.) is smaller than the actual number of Monsters currently in that room, stop playing Monsters immediately--the battle stack is finished.

So, in your example, we would be finished with a stack of Zz'dtri and three roaches.


Situation: Screw This card "Recurring Villain" is played on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated. Where does the recurring monster go?

I see four options for how this situation could be handled.

(1) Put that monster into the battle deck. Problem: the monster will be obvious because it has a black Xykon Deck back rather than a brown Battle Deck card.

(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck. Problem 1: the screw this card says to put it back into the Battle Deck. Problem 2: adding an extra monster to the Xykon Deck can lead to a situation where you explore all the rooms in Xykon's Lair, but don't find Xykon.

(3) Discard the monster. Problem: the monster cannot possibly recur.

(4) Forbid use of Recurring Villain on any monster that came from the Xykon Deck. Problem: the card says "any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon)", not "... (other than a monster from the Xykon Deck)".

Would anyone like to make a ruling (or a suggestion) on which option should apply?

Option #3. While it does make the title of the card somewhat inaccurate, it is the least problematic solution. Just assume that they'll recur in the next game you play rather than later in this one.

[prj]

After a Leaping Attack into another room, can Belkar continue battling monsters in his new room? The rules say (p15) "You may not continue to battle additional Monsters if you made a Ranged Attack into a room; you must be in the same room as the Monsters in order to continue." The first part, taken exactly as stated, would prohibit Belkar from continuing, since a Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack. But the second part sounds like the rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind.

A) How do people play this? B) Can TheGiant or apegamer chime in with the official word?

[The Giant]

After a Leaping Attack into another room, can Belkar continue battling monsters in his new room? The rules say (p15) "You may not continue to battle additional Monsters if you made a Ranged Attack into a room; you must be in the same room as the Monsters in order to continue." The first part, taken exactly as stated, would prohibit Belkar from continuing, since a Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack. But the second part sounds like the rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind.

A) How do people play this? B) Can TheGiant or apegamer chime in with the official word?

No, you may not continue battling Monsters in the same room. It says so right in the third sentence in the text of Leaping Attack: "You may not battle additional Monsters or players in that room until your next turn, though you may pick up Loot if there are no Monsters."

The rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind because Leaping Attack is an exception to the rule. The text on the card specifically states how this works, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[The Giant]

From a lot earlier in the thread:


Question:
A player sets off a trap with a range sufficient to reach another player who was resting. I've been playing that the resting player suffers the -4 defense penalty even though it's "evading" and not "defending". This makes it impossible to beat most of the traps in this way though those traps were already very difficult to evade. It seems to me that it's in the spirit of resting though not everyone agrees on this.
Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?

There should be no penalty to the Evade roll for resting.

Avoiding traps is difficult enough and resting has enough penalties associated with it as-is. Further, the resting penalty to Defense is included largely as a PvP incentive (to allow a player who is lagging a chance to catch up by mugging a more powerful player), since it rarely comes up in Player vs. Monster combat. Since players have no control over where and when Traps are sprung, there's no real strategy added to the game by including a penalty except to make resting even riskier, which is counter to our aims.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

We were playing last weekend, and had an interesting situation. Elan was ahead of us by a lot, and ended up heading to Xykon's level first. On his second turn in the level, he moved into a new room and battled a monster who was way above what he had expected. He also didn't have any support from other characters. So, he decided to use his Poorly Planned Illusion to avoid a hit.

The problem is, the only adjacent room was the Safe Room. Now, the text is similar to the Room of Horrible Death for Other People, which we normally allow monsters to be moved into, but the Safe Room is supposed to be safe, right? We ended up moving the horde to the safe room anyway, and it turned out not to be a problem (Xykon was defeated shortly after)

Did we do this right, should the Safe Room be kept Safe?

Thanks

[prj]

So, he decided to use his Poorly Planned Illusion to avoid a hit.

The problem is, the only adjacent room was the Safe Room.

I think that's fine. The Battle Size being zero means that no new battles can be started there, but it doesn't stop monsters from being moved into that room.

[runescaper123]

If two monster cards with the henchman ability are played, which goes at the bottom?

EG:two :roach: cards and 1 :nale: cards are played. since both :roach: cards have the henchman ability, in which order does :durkon: need to face them?

[Zelthax]

Er, they should be the same Atk and Def, etc...so it doesn't matter, really...

However, the "Immediate Scuttle" should place each Henchmen at the bottom of the current pile. So, with Nale and Roach #1 and Roach#2, the play goes as follows:

Nale is played.
Roach#1 is played, goes to bottom.
Roach#2 is played, goes to bottom.

Stack is:

Nale
Roach#1
Roach#2

[curtis]

So this came up a few pages ago and never got resolved, is the lack of X's and coins on the Guard Monster intentional or an error?

Do you have to flip Fearless Leader in order to not believe in the power of Banjo?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

AFAIK is intentional.
On the Fearless Leader i think in the card is written "assist", not erm... cooperate or something so it only applies to that aspect, that mechanic.

[Oisian]

After the latest game with my wife, I decided it was time to reread the rules (good thing; I'd been misremembering several of them!).

One of the things I'd forgotten was that you get to pick up two loot when you rest.

Now I'd had some trouble understanding how the whole 'picking up loot' thing works, and I finally worked it out like this (check me if I'm wrong here): a turn is, in a sense, divided into four phases. The first is the 'Beginning of the turn' phase, the second is 'movement,' the third is 'battle,' and the fourth is 'end of turn' (I've actually created a flowchart that encompasses all of this, as I understand it, which I may share at some point in the future).

As far as picking up loot goes, in the 'beginning of the turn' phase, you are allowed to pick up one loot in your current room IF there are no monsters there. In the 'battle' phase, you are allowed to pick up two loot IF you clear the room of monsters (regardless of whether you've picked up any loot earlier in the turn). In the 'end of turn' phase, you're allowed to pick up one loot IF there are no monsters in the room with you AND IF you've not picked up ANY loot earlier in the turn.

If this is correct, then it would indicate that it's possible, without schticks or other effects, to pick up three loot in one turn: one in the beginning of the turn, and two after moving and battling in which you successfully clear out the last monster.

So my question is this: does the two loot from resting work the same way? If you start your turn in a room with three or more loot and no monsters, can you pick up a loot at the beginning of your turn and then pick up two more when you elect to rest? Or is it more like you get to pick up one bonus loot when you elect to rest, thus keeping it at a total of two loot picked up in this turn, and the only way to get a third without using schticks or other effects is by moving and battling?

[prj]

As far as picking up loot goes, in the 'beginning of the turn' phase, you are allowed to pick up one loot in your current room IF there are no monsters there. In the 'battle' phase, you are allowed to pick up two loot IF you clear the room of monsters (regardless of whether you've picked up any loot earlier in the turn). In the 'end of turn' phase, you're allowed to pick up one loot IF there are no monsters in the room with you AND IF you've not picked up ANY loot earlier in the turn.

That's right.



So my question is this: does the two loot from resting work the same way?

One might read the rules that way, but I don't think that's intended. If it were, I think it would probably be spelled out explicitly on page 24, or in the example on page 25.

[The Giant]

For ease of finding and answering questions about The Shortening, I've moved the three posts with questions about it to another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215874) So this thread will remain for general rules questions or i those about the Dungeon of Dorukan/Deluxe Edition, and that thread for ones about The Shortening.

[Zarquon]

I just got Dungeon of Dorukan for Christmas (finally!) and was wondering: It would seem to me to be possible to play this game single-handedly. Most things that happen are either die rolls or pulling cards from decks, which are easily randomized if they aren't already.

Has anyone come up with such rules? I'm playing around with it at the moment, having a single Battle deck to pull from, for instance, but I was wondering if any previous work had been done on this subject.

[Shadowknight13]

A question: As long as you didn't move, are you allowed to make multiple ranged attacks per turn as long as you don't lose or draw? (When battling monsters, not players)

[NettoTakashi]

Some questions on Elan's "Poorly Planned Illusions"...

1. As a Ranged Attack that hits All Monsters, does this hit every monster within its range, like how a ranged Trap hits every player in its range, or does it only affect monsters within a selected room?

2. The card says that Elan may move all monsters he wins against. Does that mean that, if the total result is high enough to beat some monsters in the affected area, but not others, those beaten get moved while those not beaten potentially counter-attack? Or is it an all-or-nothing deal, where you have to beat EVERY monster to move ANY of them?

3. Can monsters be moved into areas that monsters cannot normally appear in, such as the Safe Haven?

4. While Xykon himself cannot be moved, other Xykon monsters can be moved. Does this include the ability to move them up the stairs, out of Xykon's lair?

5. Can Poorly Planned Illusions be used against another player? If so, what happens when Elan wins that combat?

...I think that's all the questions I had on that subject, though I've got this nagging feeling I'm forgetting one.

On a completely different subject, though...Resting/Losing a Turn.

6. The rules say that combat effects from Resting or Fleeing also apply while Losing a Turn. What, exactly, does this mean? Does it mean the player Losing a Turn is at -4 against other attacking players? Or does that only apply if the player was trying to Rest when they lost their turn? Does it affect monster combat in any way (e.g., if someone uses "Surprise!" to launch a monster attack on the character)?

7. Can a character who is Resting search for stairs?

8. Can a character who is Resting or Losing a Turn use combat schticks to defend against attacks from other players? What about against Surprise! attacks from monsters?

Hmmmm...yeah, I think that's enough questions for now.

[prj]

As a Ranged Attack that hits All Monsters, does this hit every monster within its range, like how a ranged Trap hits every player in its range, or does it only affect monsters within a selected room?

Only those in the targeted room. A Ranged Attack lets you target one monster in another room (rulebook page 12), and Area Effect expands the attack to include other monsters in the same room (page 18). There isn't anything in the rules that would expand it beyond there.


Or is it an all-or-nothing deal, where you have to beat EVERY monster to move ANY of them?

All or nothing. This is unrelated to ranged attacks, but is true for all Area Effect attacks. See page 18.


Can monsters be moved into areas that monsters cannot normally appear in, such as the Safe Haven?

Yes. The rules don't make an exception for such rooms.


While Xykon himself cannot be moved, other Xykon monsters can be moved. Does this include the ability to move them up the stairs, out of Xykon's lair?

Yes. Since you can move them only one room at a time, this would require multiple battles on multiple turns.


Can Poorly Planned Illusions be used against another player?

No, for all Area Effect shticks. Page 18.


Does it mean the player Losing a Turn is at -4 against other attacking players?

Yes. This applies to monster battles as well, in the case of Surprise! or Wandering Xykon with the Shortening expansion. Page 20 states the penalty applies to both player and monster battles when resting, and later states that the same penalties apply when missing a turn.


Can a character who is Resting search for stairs?

You can search at the beginning or end of your turn, so you can search before you rest, on the same turn.


Can a character who is Resting or Losing a Turn use combat schticks to defend against attacks from other players? What about against Surprise! attacks from monsters?

Yes. There's no prohibition in the rules against using shticks while resting.

[The Giant]

All of prj's answers are correct.

[Dice Kitty]

Good day!

It's been quite a while since I posted here.

Oh well, we started to play again the game, but I have a doubt regarding the rules.

When I end up in a new room, a monster appears, a battle happens, my turn ends. If I start the turn with the monster in the same room, Can I walk away from the battle and move to a different room with one of my friends to heal? Or do I have to fight the monster until it's dead?

Thanks in advance!!

[The Giant]

When I end up in a new room, a monster appears, a battle happens, my turn ends. If I start the turn with the monster in the same room, Can I walk away from the battle and move to a different room with one of my friends to heal? Or do I have to fight the monster until it's dead?

You can walk away.

As a rule of thumb, already face-up monsters don't impede movement at all, and only force a battle if you end your movement there. You can walk away from (or through) face-up monsters with impunity as long as you have movement remaining.

There are, I think, one or two exceptions, but they're clearly spelled out on the card in question.

[Anaesthesia]

Background cards-I can't find anything in the rules book about them. I think I must be overlooking the listing, but I spent at least an hour on Wednesday trying to find anything that says when or how you get the Background cards.

Any pointers (or to the rule book page) would be helpful.

[Lyrian]

Hi guys.

We have a particular issue that arose in our game last night. After Xykon was defeated, V, Haley and Durkon were all left in his room (on the 4th floor, with only three rooms on it; the safe haven and two Xykon's secret layers). V moved first, using the gourd to enhance his speed and left that layer, using the Emergency Exit on the 3rd floor to move directly to the Dungeon Entrance and removing one of the three 4th floor rooms. It was Haley's turn next, but she was left with removing either the room with the only stairs out, or the room in which Durkon was still stood.

In that situation, what happens? Does the room with Durkon still in it get removed? If so, what happens to Durkon, is he trapped down there, or does he get moved to the last remaining room on that floor?

[Advance Strat..]

I think I remember seeing this situation in the rulebook. Durkon's room would get taken out and Durkon himself would just move to the next room over if I recall. I think there was an example in the rulebook somewhere on the dungeon collapsing that had Roy do that several times before it got to be his turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have the game in front of me, but that sounds right.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I think I remember seeing this situation in the rulebook. Durkon's room would get taken out and Durkon himself would just move to the next room over if I recall. I think there was an example in the rulebook somewhere on the dungeon collapsing that had Roy do that several times before it got to be his turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have the game in front of me, but that sounds right.

That would be the correct answer.

[akroknymn]

Simple question but I've spent some time searching and can't find an answer. Do non-battle schticks stack or do you only get the boost effect from having multiple copies in play?

A specific example is Haley's Sneak Attack. If she has all three copies in play *and* both her longbows is her defense +7 and her attack +7 at range 0? Or does it only become d+5/a+5?

To put it another way does she get the +1/+1 from the second and third Sneak Attacks in addition to the boost effect? Or does she only get +1/+1 from the first Sneak Attack and then only the boost effect from the 2nd and 3rd ones.

[Keeper of Starlight]

I played this game for the first time yesterday as Vaarsuvius, and had no idea for what strategies would work best for V. I ended up starting out with "Fireball", "Right Spell for the Job", and the one where she talks everyone to sleep for my starting Shticks. None of us were entirely sure how the rules would apply for my defensive shtick, and we agreed that if I fought two monsters and won my defense against the first, causing a Draw, then I could still choose to attack the next monster in the stack. My first question is whether or not that is an accurate ruling. But this developed into an interesting strategy that I also want to ask about, because it turned out to be extremely useful and I hope it was actually correct. After defending against the first monster successfully I would cast Fireball offensively against the second monster, and we decided that because the spell had an Area effect that it would hit both monsters anyway. I used this on the second floor to great effect by entering an empty room, defending, and then defeating both monsters and collecting the loot, then resting to gain back Fireball and my health point. Was this a valid strategy, or does it break any of the rules?

[Dr. Gamera]

None of us were entirely sure how the rules would apply for my defensive shtick, and we agreed that if I fought two monsters and won my defense against the first, causing a Draw, then I could still choose to attack the next monster in the stack. My first question is whether or not that is an accurate ruling.

It is not an accurate ruling. Page 15 of the rulebook, emphasis mine: "If you won the battle and there are additional Monsters in the same room, you may choose to battle the next Monster in the Battle Stack." Page 14 clarifies that if you use a Battle Shtick that results in a draw even if you win the battle, then you should treat the battle as a draw if you win (or if you draw). Page 15 clarifies that you may not continue to battle Monsters one after the other if a battle is a draw.

[leonardomalk]

Hello,

I tried to browse for it but did not find, sorry if it has been asked / answered before.

I understand you can't Range Attack if you have moved, cannot Range Attack if there are monsters with me in my room and can also make only 1 Ranged Attack per turn. But what if:

I start the turn in a room with X monster(s). I fight and kill the X monster(s). May I then, having not moved, being in a monsterless room, make a Ranged Attack at another room's monster?

Regards,

[iStreeter]

My copy of the game came without the simplified 8-page rule book. Is there a way I can get an image or a hard copy of it without having to buy the game again?

[Lord Torath]

Background cards-I can't find anything in the rules book about them. I think I must be overlooking the listing, but I spent at least an hour on Wednesday trying to find anything that says when or how you get the Background cards.

Any pointers (or to the rule book page) would be helpful.
Backgrounds are not used in the basic game, but are part of The Shortening. The folded instruction sheet for that game has the details. Iirc you deal each person 5 cards, then they look at them and keep three, discarding two (You can certainly use them in the basic game if you are so inclined).


I played this game for the first time yesterday as Vaarsuvius, and had no idea for what strategies would work best for V. I ended up starting out with "Fireball", "Right Spell for the Job", and the one where she talks everyone to sleep for my starting Shticks. None of us were entirely sure how the rules would apply for my defensive shtick, and we agreed that if I fought two monsters and won my defense against the first, causing a Draw, then I could still choose to attack the next monster in the stack. My first question is whether or not that is an accurate ruling. But this developed into an interesting strategy that I also want to ask about, because it turned out to be extremely useful and I hope it was actually correct. After defending against the first monster successfully I would cast Fireball offensively against the second monster, and we decided that because the spell had an Area effect that it would hit both monsters anyway. I used this on the second floor to great effect by entering an empty room, defending, and then defeating both monsters and collecting the loot, then resting to gain back Fireball and my health point. Was this a valid strategy, or does it break any of the rules?Also, as page 18 says, when using area effect Shticks, you pick the highest defense value in the area of your Shtick and use that for the combat (Elan's poorly planned illusion affects all monsters in the stack; V's fireball affects the top two monsters in the stack, unless it's been boosted). Your Fireball Shtick targets the highest defense of the monsters in its area (top two monsters). Did you remember to take one wound off of V each time you use the Fireball Shtick against monsters in the same room as you?


Simple question but I've spent some time searching and can't find an answer. Do non-battle schticks stack or do you only get the boost effect from having multiple copies in play?

A specific example is Haley's Sneak Attack. If she has all three copies in play *and* both her longbows is her defense +7 and her attack +7 at range 0? Or does it only become d+5/a+5?

To put it another way does she get the +1/+1 from the second and third Sneak Attacks in addition to the boost effect? Or does she only get +1/+1 from the first Sneak Attack and then only the boost effect from the 2nd and 3rd ones.Multiple copies of shticks do not stack, but the "top" copy is boosted by the other copies you have in play.

So the "top" Longbow Stick is boosted by the other Longbows you have in play (granting +1 Def and +1 Range for each extra copy if I remember correctly), and the Sneak Attack shtick is boosted by the other copies in play (which I seem to recall adds +1 Att for each extra copy).

You only flip one copy of a flippable shtick when you use it, though. If V has 3 Fireball shticks, the first one she casts will have an ATT of 5 and an area of 4 monsters. One Fireball shtick will then get flipped, and the next fireball she casts will have an ATT of 5 and an area of 3 monsters.

Does this answer your question?

[KenkakuKnight]

Hopefully this is a simple question with a simple answer. Durkon's shtick, "Take Yer Medicine," states that after you have flipped your "Cure Assorted Wounds" shtick, they must give a loot to you. Is that on addition to the one from "Cure Assorted Wounds?"

[Lord Torath]

No, I think. It's not an extra loot. It's just your way of forcing them to pay you for healing their wounds unasked.

[MtlGuy]

It's not technically a rules question, but what would be a good situation to use Durkon's Awfully Lawful shtick?

[Belril Duskwalk]

It's not technically a rules question, but what would be a good situation to use Durkon's Awfully Lawful shtick?

Ever been in one of those situations where a bad roll would be debilitating, but you don't actually need a particularly good roll to win? This is the card for that. Just do the math in your head, if you only need a 4 to win, skip the chance of failure (potentially up to 25% if a 3 would fail), embrace your Lawful nature and beat the snot out of your enemies with mediocrity.

[SlyJohnny]

If a player has a sticky monster stuck to them, and is reduced to zero wounds and forced to flee the dungeon, does the monster get dragged along with them? All the way to the dungeon entrance? What about if the monster gets unstuck at the entrance, does it stay there, triggering battles if players return to the surface?

[Duck999]

I was playing and noticed that forgotten bonus (screw this) that makes one ability not active can be used on Xykon. That seems a little unfair, and I was wondering if that is actually allowed. Thanks!

[SteveDJ]

It's not technically a rules question, but what would be a good situation to use Durkon's Awfully Lawful shtick?


Ever been in one of those situations where a bad roll would be debilitating, but you don't actually need a particularly good roll to win? This is the card for that. Just do the math in your head, if you only need a 4 to win, skip the chance of failure (potentially up to 25% if a 3 would fail), embrace your Lawful nature and beat the snot out of your enemies with mediocrity.

Just played the first time last weekend, but actually happened across this card.

We thought its intent was to hinder other players... likely force them to lose a battle. Because I thought it said the card could apply to ANY attack (not just one of yours).

ETA: Of course, now that I think about it more, it was a Shtick, right (not a Screw This)?? Well, another situation might be that you are in an obligated battle, and you DON'T want to win -- Exploding Monster... too much loot to be dropped by others in the stack... too many players too close by...? Ok, I'm stretching here... :smallwink:

[Lonewolf147]

Hey all, finally played through an entire first game. There were several things that came up that didn't have a clear answer to us and a quick search online didn't provide answers.

First, there is a loot that says when discarded all weapon schticks are boosted for the turn. But doesn't say how much the boost is. Is there a default boost of +1 or +2 in the game?

Second, When fighting Xykon and you defeat him, the rules say that the game immediately freezes and you start the steps for the collapsing dungeon. What happens to the rest of the monsters in the Battle Stack with him? Since the game freezes and the first step is that all monsters run away, does that mean after you defeat Xykon the rest of the monsters in the stack run away and you don't have to fight them? Also, does the players turn resume as normal allowing him to pick up loot for defeating the last monster in the room (since the others fled)? And, does the player that defeats Xykon remove a dungeon room too, or does the next player remove the first room?

Third, just trying to clarify, you can equip any loot that you Drool over, right? Not just useable items? So like the Impressive Scar can be equipped even though it doesn't do anything?

Fourth, can Area of Effects be used for defense? Specifically, Durkon's Thor's Might schtick (from the Shortening deck). Lets his Thor's Hammer become and AoE, since you can use the hammer for attack and defense, if I defend against the top monster can I apply my roll to the next two monsters too?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

First, there is a loot that says when discarded all weapon schticks are boosted for the turn. But doesn't say how much the boost is. Is there a default boost of +1 or +2 in the game? All cards that can be boosted have a "Boost: yadda yadda yadda" at the bottom. When a card is boosted, you apply (for each boost) the effect there. For example for each boost, Belkar's Twin Daggers of Doom deal an extra wound (in the base game only matters against other players).


Second, When fighting Xykon and you defeat him, the rules say that the game immediately freezes and you start the steps for the collapsing dungeon. What happens to the rest of the monsters in the Battle Stack with him? Since the game freezes and the first step is that all monsters run away, does that mean after you defeat Xykon the rest of the monsters in the stack run away and you don't have to fight them? Also, does the players turn resume as normal allowing him to pick up loot for defeating the last monster in the room (since the others fled)? And, does the player that defeats Xykon remove a dungeon room too, or does the next player remove the first room?Yes, they run away. Yes, the player can pick some loot. IIRC the next player is the one to remove a room.

Third, just trying to clarify, you can equip any loot that you Drool over, right? Not just useable items? So like the Impressive Scar can be equipped even though it doesn't do anything?Yes, IIRC.

Fourth, can Area of Effects be used for defense? Specifically, Durkon's Thor's Might schtick (from the Shortening deck). Lets his Thor's Hammer become and AoE, since you can use the hammer for attack and defense, if I defend against the top monster can I apply my roll to the next two monsters too?Don't have that so don't know.

[Menarker]

A question come up that I can't seem to find a direct answer for.

If a player defeats an Exploding Monster in combat, and there remains other monsters in the room (that are subsequently defeated by the explosion), does the monsters (other than the first one that the player actually slain directly) get saved by the player as exp? Does it give loot in this fashion as well?

[Lonewolf147]

good question. I'd like to know the official answer to that too.

I've been playing that you keep the xp for only the monster you directly kill, but they all drop treasure.

[Menarker]

Nevermind. I was referred to it here. (http://apegames.com/oots/ShorteningRulesheet_v3.pdf)

Turns out no exp is awarded for either the exploding monster or the monsters it slay in the process.

A little embarrassing I missed that since I have that sheet at home. I guess I glazed over it. Ah well.

[Lonewolf147]

OK, you don't get the xp, but what about the loot?

[Lord Torath]

Yes, the loot drops as normal.

[Duck999]

Do boosted shticks count twice? For example, if you have 2 sneak attacks, do you get the plus 2 attack and plus 1 defense from one, or do you get it from both, for 4 and 2?

[Shishnarfne]

Do boosted shticks count twice? For example, if you have 2 sneak attacks, do you get the plus 2 attack and plus 1 defense from one, or do you get it from both, for 4 and 2?

No, you only get the Boost bonus from Shticks beyond the first one. So, if you have two copies, the Shtick is boosted once. If you have three copies, it is boosted twice.

I hope that this clarifies the situation.

[Caesar]

Can you use a screw this card which says can be played at any time to boost a schtick that was flipped earlier that same turn? Specifically, playing Get Angry to remove the wound from Halfing Rage?

[Duck999]

Can you use a screw this card which says can be played at any time to boost a schtick that was flipped earlier that same turn? Specifically, playing Get Angry to remove the wound from Halfing Rage?

First of all, I do not believe you can boost flipped schticks.
Secondly, even if you could, it would not do anyhing because the schtick was already used. The boost happens when the schtick is activated.

[Aetch]

Hi all, I'm sorry if this has been asked or is self evident. If a card has a boost ability say foe loses +1 wound if they are a player, then does this boost apply even if the player playing it loses or draws or do they have to win the battle to have the boost applied? Thank you for any help.

[Lord Torath]

They have to win in order for the extra wound boost to be in effect. I'm not certain if that situation is explicitly addressed, but since you only inflict wounds if you win, I think it's a logical conclusion.

[King of Nowhere]

this is not a rule question, merely a flavor text question, but this still seems the right place for it.

In the "goblin pride day" card, the goblin is uttering the slogan "we're mean, we're green, and we must be seen". every time i see the card, i feel that it must be a twist on a real, real-world slogan, except i have no idea what such a slogan could be. can someone enlighten me?

[littlebum2002]

this is not a rule question, merely a flavor text question, but this still seems the right place for it.

In the "goblin pride day" card, the goblin is uttering the slogan "we're mean, we're green, and we must be seen". every time i see the card, i feel that it must be a twist on a real, real-world slogan, except i have no idea what such a slogan could be. can someone enlighten me?

The only one I can think of is the widely parodied "We're Here! We're Queer! Get used to it!"'

[Belksworth]

I was wondering: is the Seldom-Used Quarterstaff supposed to have a -2 to attack? Doesn't that make it useless?

[Birdeye]

I was wondering: is the Seldom-Used Quarterstaff supposed to have a -2 to attack? Doesn't that make it useless?

It is use-impaired, not useless.

It is intended to be a backup for V since most other combat shticks are flipped after use. Since you can't win a battle without a shtick (a winning roll only gets you a draw), the quarterstaff lets you have a chance of defeating the enemy, but at a penalty.

[TESffaa1]

Hello all,
I have two questions :

1° What really happens when a Chronicler fails his Inspire roll for helping another character?

2° It is written in rules that a Heal roll can me made for healing a broken Character, making recovering a number of attribute points equal to the number of succes rolled. But can this Heal skill also be used for healing a non-broken Character? Can we Heal someone before he is broken?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Lord Torath]

Hello all,
I have two questions :

1° What really happens when a Chronicler fails his Inspire roll for helping another character?

2° It is written in rules that a Heal roll can me made for healing a broken Character, making recovering a number of attribute points equal to the number of succes rolled. But can this Heal skill also be used for healing a non-broken Character? Can we Heal someone before he is broken?

Thank you in advance for your answers.Just to clarify, this thread is for Rules Questions about the Order of the Stick Adventure Game (https://www.ookoodook.com/products/ape0602). There are (to my knowledge) no Chroniclers in this game, and the only attributes characters can lose are wounds. Are you in the right forum? You probably want the Roleplaying forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?30-Roleplaying-Games), and probably the D&D 3.x, D&D 4e, or D&D 5e sub-forum (as appropriate).

[Ayek]

If Belkar has only one copy of Halfling Rage, can he flip it for the bonus, then use a Screw This! card to unflip it (A Good Laugh would work), then unflip it again all in the same battle, for a total of +6 to Attack or Defense? Thanks.

[Lord Torath]

If Belkar has only one copy of Halfling Rage, can he flip it for the bonus, then use a Screw This! card to unflip it (A Good Laugh would work), then unflip it again all in the same battle, for a total of +6 to Attack or Defense? Thanks.Hmmm. I would say no. I'd say you can't use any shtick more than once per die roll, regardless of whether it gets flipped or not. Multiple copies of shticks use their normal rules for stacking, of course.

[Noel Oaksleaf]

Hello there.
I apologize in advance if there are answers to my following questions hidden somewhere into this thread, but reading all pages would be unapproachably time-consuming to me. I'm also referring to the Deluxe edition of the game.

1) Is Elan's Poorely-planned illusion intended to be so OP? Granted I happened to be very lucky when playing as Elan, since I managed to get all three copies of them during the early game AND the shticks that also lets you wound an enemy instead of moving it (can't remember the name right now), it seemed a little too much: counting boosts from other Elan's cards and loots, PPI had a base defense/offense value of 14-16! In comparison V's Fireball, whilst killing a lot of enemies in one go, never reaches such high grounds (it caps at an attack value of 5, if I'm not mistaken).
Were we playing it wrong? Was the boost nerfed? Do generic boosts to attack and defence (Dorukan's necklace, Bard song cards flipped through Lute, and the like) not apply, do monsters get to throw a die? It's a lot to unpack, I know, but PPI left me and my friends that much baffled.

2) We also noticed that some shticks, while having boost options, come in only one copy (Belkar' Sexy shoeless god of war is an example). This makes them virtually un-boostable, doesn't it? Were they meant to be boosted via Screw this! cards only? Or did we lose some?

Thank you for your patience.