Rules Questions

[apegamer]

We hope the rules are clear, concise and complete, but there will inevitably be some questions. Use this topic to ask away, and between Rich and me, we'll get the questions answered. The answers will eventually become the basis for a FAQ.

[Justin_Miller]

So... does this mean the rules are posted somewhere?

[Gorbash Kazdar]

So... does this mean the rules are posted somewhere?
More for when you (as in the universal you) get ahold of a copy and run into something that appears not to be covered by the rules, given the unique situation you encountered. ;)

[apegamer]

Nope, the rules aren't posted yet. However, 300ish people out there have the game after GenCon.

[Video]

Two questions, and forgive me as I'm at work and don't have the cards in front of me:

1.) One of Durkon's Schticks is missing it's win result. It is the one with a blindfolded, drunk Thor throwing lightnign bolts. In our game we assumed it was 1 wound, but clarificationw ould be nice.

2.) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders? Is the +1 battle size gone the entire time, or will a player add a monster after this turn?

I think that's all we've got for right now, enjoying the game otherwise!

[apegamer]

Two questions, and forgive me as I'm at work and don't have the cards in front of me:

1.) One of Durkon's Schticks is missing it's win result. It is the one with a blindfolded, drunk Thor throwing lightnign bolts. In our game we assumed it was 1 wound, but clarificationw ould be nice.

One of the Thor's Lightning cards is missing the Result text. The result is 'Foe loses 1 Wound', like the other Thor's Lightning.



2.) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders? Is the +1 battle size gone the entire time, or will a player add a monster after this turn?

Great question! The Screw This! card you're referring to is 'I Forgot They Could Do That'. The card says that you can eliminate one of the effects on the monster card until the end of turn. Some effects, like Leader, only really take effect as the card is played.

The Leader ablility says that the Battle Size is +1, meaning that the room gets one more monster played in it than would normally be played. 'If I Forgot They Could Do That' is played on the turn that the Leader card was put into play, then the battle size is reduced accordingly (give the extra card(s) back to the person who laid them until the battle size is correct. The battle size is locked after player begins battling the monster. It cannot be changed on that turn, nor on future turns.

Thinking about it, there's probably more I can say about the Leader ability, but it's late and that's a discussion for another day.

[Video]

Thanks for the answer, that's how we played both of the cards, so good to see we did it right.

I'll be sure to post up any more questions :)

[Video]

Got another:

Is loot with the OotS emblam considered loot that is "drooled over" for all players (aka - Can two players pass something back and forth like Dragon Horde to continually give each other +4 bonuses)? Does it count for loot for schtick trade-ins and Xykon's lair entry?

Thanks again :)

[Phantom]

Can you please explain how to use Elan's Schtick "Poorly Planned Illusion"? I'm confused as to whether the creature dropps teh phat lewts or not. What leads me to this confusion is the use of the word "defeated" in the effects text.

Thanks.

[caestepp]

...I'm confused as to whether the creature dropps teh phat lewts or not. What leads me to this confusion is the use of the word "defeated" in the effects text.

Elan's "Poorly-Planned Illusion" shtick does not cause a wound to the affected monsters. Therefore the monsters are not killed and they do not drop any loot in the room. Elan simply moves them to an adjacent room.

If loot was already dropped in the room as a result of a previous battle, that loot will now be left unguarded in the room. At this point, since Elan is responsible for clearing the room of the last monster, he would have the option of picking up 2 loot (the same as when someone kills the last monster in a room).

Use of the term "defeated" seems appropriate since Elan is indeed successful in his battle roll and is therefore able to inflict his will upon the monsters by forcing them to move to an adjacent room.

[caestepp]

Got another:

Is loot with the OotS emblam considered loot that is "drooled over" for all players (aka - Can two players pass something back and forth like Dragon Horde to continually give each other +4 bonuses)? Does it count for loot for schtick trade-ins and Xykon's lair entry?


Yes. The OOTS emblem is a wild-card that indicates that all of the characters drool over that loot.

Yes. Two players can pass an item back and forth between themselves. This is not limited to loot containing the wild card icon. Take a loot that has 1 Roy and 1 V face for example. The players playing those two characters could also exchange that loot back and forth.

Yes. You can use loot containing the OOTS emblem just like you would any other loot. Each OOTS emblem always counts as one face.

[caestepp]

Can you give more than one loot per encounter to have more than one person help you per encounter (or give more than one loot to the same person to just increase their bonus)? If there are two monsters in the room and you use a loot to have a person help you with the first one, do you still get that bonus for the second one?
Yes, you can give more than one loot to other players in return for assistance with a battle. You can give multiple loot to the same person or you can give one or more loot to each of several different players.

The only limitation is that in PvP battles, an assisting player can only help one of the two players in the battle. You can't assist both sides.

Assistance is only good for a single battle (ie. a single die roll). If you decide to attack the next monster in the stack you have to offer new loot in order to gain assistance.

[Argus]

1) How many Bragging Points is the defeat of Xykon worth? Page 27 specifies 5, but page 29 specifies 2*lvl.

2) Do the monster cards in the Xykon Deck have the red X symbol? Page 27 states that they do not, but ....

[apegamer]

First, a big Thank You to Craig (Krago) for fielding some of these questions. Craig was one of the primary playtesters for the game and also the hatcher of many of the game's cooler ideas. Those of you at GenCon might have met Craig giving demos of the game.


1) How many Bragging Points is the defeat of Xykon worth? Page 27 specifies 5, but page 29 specifies 2*lvl.

2) Do the monster cards in the Xykon Deck have the red X symbol? Page 27 states that they do not, but ....

The defeat of Xykon is worth 2 * level. The 5 points is a typo.

We need to talk about whether monsters on the Xykon level provide XP. We talked about this at length, and thought we'd come to a conclusion, but unfortunately the final result was confusion on this point in the rules.

[apegamer]

I have another question:

Roy has a Shtick that lets him flip another other person's Shtick. However, it does not specifiy when on the card I he can do this. Can I do it after someone has paid loot to another person to get them to help? If so, this Shtick seems unbalanced because I could make people not only lose combat but pay loot for no benefit.


The intent of this shtick (Party Leader Veto) was for it to be used during Roy's turn. It should therefore include the text "At the start of your turn..."

[Argus]

In a collapsing dungeon, the rule about removing a room with any players still in it seems odd.


You may not remove a room with any players still in it unless there are no rooms without players in them remaining on the lowest floor of the dungeon, or unless the only room without players in it is the room with the stairs up.


If you look at the example on page 29, it seems that the removal of room 10B is forbidden due to the empty non-stair rooms on the floor: The Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs, Dungeon Corridor, and A Dark Room.

For that matter, if a floor has more than one set of stairs leading down to it, it seems that it would be difficult to remove a room once that floor is reduced to the rooms below and between the stairs.

[apegamer]

In a collapsing dungeon, the rule about removing a room with any players still in it seems odd.

If you look at the example on page 29, it seems that the removal of room 10B is forbidden due to the empty non-stair rooms on the floor: The Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs, Dungeon Corridor, and A Dark Room.

For that matter, if a floor has more than one set of stairs leading down to it, it seems that it would be difficult to remove a room once that floor is reduced to the rooms below and between the stairs.

Yes, there appears to be a problem with part of the example. At the end of the example on page 29, Belkar exits the dungeon and removes room 10B. The only valid room for Belkar to have removed is actually the Dark Room.

The rules say that you can only remove rooms from the left or the right, so removing the Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs or the Dungeon Corridor would not be an option. Removing a room from the middle might cut off a character's 'escape route', and it therefore illegal.

Note too that there may sometimes be more than a single room on a level with stairs. This is fine - continue removing rooms from either the right or the left, but leave one set of stairs on the level to escape from.

[Argus]

Okay, and to make sure I understand the bit about the left edge or right edge:

Assume that the first level had eight rooms labelled A-H, it had stairs going down from 1B and 1G, and the second level ended up with two disconnected sections explored: A-C and F-H. Would A, C, F, and H all be permissible for removal as long as they aren't occupied by players? (Note that allowing just A or H might lead to a problem once those two are gone.)

[Moebius]

- The "I Forgot They Could Do That" Screw This! Card has already been mentioned. Can it negate a support ability?
(example: Xykon gets an 'Assist' Support from every Goblin and Undead on his floor, giving him +2 A/D for each such monster on his floor - which can climb up pretty high, since he has Horde as well. Can the Screw This! card negate that whole bonus?)

- Roy's Fearless Leader Schtick lets him, whenever he helps in a battle, heal 1 wound or unflip one flipped schtick at the end of the battle. Is that on him, the player he helped, or either?

[red_eagle123]

Well, I picked up a copy of the game at GenCon, and got a chance to play it with 4 other friends yesterday.

Firstly, we started off with the simplest setting, which stated a ~4 hour game. Taking into account learning how to play, and all, I was thinking maybe 5 hours. We wound up playing for 7.5 hours before finally finishing the game. And this is with only one room on lvl 3...

The one rules question I have (other than those already directly answered), is the wording of Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion. It states in the results that player 'MAY' move a monster to an adjacent room. We all took that to mean that it was an optional effect, and that the Elan player could either defeat the monster or move the monster.

Based on an earlier answer, I'm guessing this was incorrect? If so I would suggest a change of the wording on those cards, or an errata at least.

[The Giant]

- The "I Forgot They Could Do That" Screw This! Card has already been mentioned. Can it negate a support ability?
(example: Xykon gets an 'Assist' Support from every Goblin and Undead on his floor, giving him +2 A/D for each such monster on his floor - which can climb up pretty high, since he has Horde as well. Can the Screw This! card negate that whole bonus?)

Yes, but in the case of a monster with two Support abilities, they are considered separately. So you could negate Horde or Assist, but not both. This is, incidentally, one of the best uses of this particular card and can be essential in breaking up very powerful clumps of monsters.


-- Roy's Fearless Leader Schtick lets him, whenever he helps in a battle, heal 1 wound or unflip one flipped schtick at the end of the battle. Is that on him, the player he helped, or either?


The wounds healed or shticks unflipped must be Roy's. As a rule of thumb, if you can affect another player's wounds or shticks with a card, it specifically says something like "belonging to any player".

[The Giant]

The one rules question I have (other than those already directly answered), is the wording of Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion. It states in the results that player 'MAY' move a monster to an adjacent room. We all took that to mean that it was an optional effect, and that the Elan player could either defeat the monster or move the monster.

You may choose not to move the monster, yes. However, you cannot choose to kill the monster, because the result text does not specifically allow you to cause any Wounds. If you don't move a monster, it just stays in the room as if it were a draw.

Why he would choose to use the shtick and not take advantage of its movement capabilities is up to the player; I can think of several scenarios. For example, you might want to move Monster A to another dungeon floor (if stairs are present) to weaken a Support-using Monster B for your Attack on your next turn. So you might choose to move Monster A, and not Monster B. Remember that PPI is an area effect, so you can pick and choose which monsters you move and where.

The important point is, you CANNOT cause a Wound with a Battle Shtick unless it specifically says it can cause a Wound. PPI doesn't say that, so it can't be used to kill monsters.

So the card is technically correct as-is, but it is definitely one for the FAQ, as on the surface, it could seem confusing.

[Moebius]

Yes, but in the case of a monster with two Support abilities, they are considered separately. So you could negate Horde or Assist, but not both. This is, incidentally, one of the best uses of this particular card and can be essential in breaking up very powerful clumps of monsters.

Yep... especially since, if I read Horde correctly, it can lead to some large stacks. For example, a monster with Support:Goblin/Horde could theoretically have every Goblin in the deck stacked under him.

Another question: Monsters with the Flying ability can only be battled with a Shtick with Range > 0. Now, if the player is in the same room with the Flying monster, is it still considered a Range 0 attack for other purposes? (example: Can Haley Sneak Attack flying monsters?)

[Argus]

Another question: Monsters with the Flying ability can only be battled with a Shtick with Range > 0. Now, if the player is in the same room with the Flying monster, is it still considered a Range 0 attack for other purposes? (example: Can Haley Sneak Attack flying monsters?)
If you and a Monster or other player are in the same room, you are at Range 0; you may use shticks with a Range value of 0 to battle them.

You may use shticks with a Range greater than 0 (often abbreviated "Range > 0") against a foe even while in the same room with that foe.

You NEVER make a Ranged Attack at a foe at Range 0.

And Sneak Attack isn't a Battle Shtick, so Flying doesn't interfere with it.

[caestepp]

One more example regarding flying monsters and range:

If Belkar is in a battle with a flying creature, he could use his "Twin Daggers of Doom" shtick coupled with his "Leaping Attack" shtick to combat this creature.

By default, the "Twin Daggers of Doom" shtick only has a range of 0, but when combined with the "Leaping Attack" shtick, Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" gains a +1 to its range. This allows Belkar to attack a flying creature when standing in the same room with it.

[Argus]

Elven Senses... Tingling!

Since stairs are found on a low roll, would someone really want to use this as printed?

[apegamer]

Elven Senses... Tingling!

Since stairs are found on a low roll, would someone really want to use this as printed?

Heh, probably not. As I'm sure you've guessed, the intent was to add +2 to the roll needed, not to the roll itself.

So with one instance of the shtick in play, V needs a 5 or less.

[apegamer]

Another question:

The "Screw This" that lets me pick up all of the loot in the room after I defeat the last monster could be used in conjunction with Haley's Schitck that lets her choose which loot she takes, right? Then one could look through all the loot in the room an only take what they want?

You bet! The Screw This! card you're talking about is Gimme! Gimme! GIMME! which let's you take the entire stack of loot. Haley's shtick Greed is Good lets her look a a pile of loot and take only the cards that she wants.

Sweet, huh?

[apegamer]

In the rules it says that when two players battle, the defending player gets to offer loot for help to one player first, then the attacker and back and forth. Can the defending player offer one loot to a person, then after the attacker offers loot to another person, offer more loot to the first person they gave loot to?

Can the defender (or attacker) offer multiple loots at the same time to the same person?

When offering loot to another PLAYER, the player can hear offers from both sides before accepting.

The back-and-forth comes into play when offering loot to NPC's. Since each player (and NPC) can only accept loot from one player, and since NPC's aren't as good at discerning who is making a better offer, they will automatically help the first person offering them loot. The other player cannot offer more loot to that NPC, but the same player MAY offer more loot, if desired.



Haley's Schtick that allows her to look through the loot pile and choose which loots to take seems oddly worded. It says if there are one or more loots in the room she may do this, however it also implies that if there is a stack of only traps then a trap must be spung. However, the rules suggest that a player can choose not to take loot in the room after beating monsters. If you use this Schtick, do you have to take one or two loots from the room, or can you choose to take no loot? If you have to take loot than what is the point of specifically saying that you can use the card if there is one loot in the room?

Haley may choose to NOT take loot when using the Greed is Good shtick, if she sees that some of the loot are traps. She may take the traps if she chooses; but that's likely only going to happen if she's got the Disarm shtick, too.



The rules say that you cannot give an NPC a loot to help you if that loot is drooled over by a current player in the game. What if the loot is drooled over by me and an NPC, can I still not give the NPC the loot? The rules also indicate that I cannot trade a loot away that I drool over, which might make my last question moot. However, I bring this up because in your FAQ you say that a player can give loot to another player even if the player giving it away would drool over it.
You can give loot to an NPC if your picture is on it. However, giving it to the NPC essentially removes it from the game, and then it cannot be used to trade in for shticks.



The Schitck rules say that after you turn in monsters with enough XP for a new Schtick you take three from the top and choose one, while putting the remaining two at the bottom of the deck. Does that mean that you cannot shuffle the deck after you did this, since it seems the remaining two are supposed to be at the bottom?
The two unselected shticks go to the bottom of your deck, to be seen only after all of the other shticks have been cycled through. The shtick deck is not shuffled, but that DOES give me an idea for the expansion!



What happens if people use up all of the dungeon room tiles? Lets say people just arent able to find the stares down for a while on botht he first and second floors. And now all the dungeon tile shave been used, but they havent reached the third floor yet. What do you do when you move to a new room or do find the stares to the third floor? Should there be a maximum floor size to keep this from being a problem?
There can be up to 8 rooms on each dungeon level, though fewer if table space is restrictive. Note that you can search rooms multiple times (though only once on your turn.) If someone doesn't find stairs in a room, then the next person moving into the room can search again, so long as there are no monsters there.

[Madame_Zelia]

This might be more commentary than rules, so feel free to redirect.

I've played OOTS Adventure game twice now--each session with four players in the 'short' game coming in at betweeen 4 and 5.5 hours. We ended up with 2 players playing the same characters in each (even though we shuffled and randomized the draw) Haley and V being the recurring players.

We love it. And at the same time some things don't quite make sense.

Of our group's experience thus far, I think the loot rules have been a sticking point.

The person playing Haley won and was second in these games, she also had the most loot and loot getting abilities. I think loot is the root of all evil in this game (well everywhere really, if I may be so Marxist!). If you don't have loot you can't get as many schticks or assistance which then
prevents you from further schtick getting and thereby preventing you
from getting down to the later levels. Would allowing 2 loots instead
of one per room get us farther down the line? A thought.

One of our party members suggested that the loot rules be raised by +1 all around. Thus, you could pick up 3 loot after all mobs are vanquished, 2 loots if you are just 'looting' or resting. This would certainly speed up the game considerably. (Speed only being an issue when at 5 hours the player exploiting Ray's schtick flipping errata was just having too much fun).

Another question is whether the loot to schtick ratio in calculating the victory points is appropriate. Should they be equal or should schticks count for more?

[caestepp]

...Would allowing 2 loots instead of one per room get us farther down the line? A thought.

One of our party members suggested that the loot rules be raised by +1 all around. Thus, you could pick up 3 loot after all mobs are vanquished, 2 loots if you are just 'looting' or resting. This would certainly speed up the game considerably. (Speed only being an issue when at 5 hours the player exploiting Ray's schtick flipping errata was just having too much fun).

Another question is whether the loot to schtick ratio in calculating the victory points is appropriate. Should they be equal or should schticks count for more?

Just to make sure we are on the same page, the rules say that you can:
Pick up 2 loot if you clear the last monster in the room (by killing or displacing)
Pickup 2 loot if you rest in a room that contains only loot (no monsters)
Pickup 1 loot and then move to a new room and have the rest of your turn
Move into a room and pickup 1 loot assuming that the room contains only loot and one or more other players so no new monsters are played.During early playtesting we started out letting folks pick up larger amounts of loot. I don't really remember it speeding up the game, but it did make the game more imbalanced toward the stronger melee characters (Roy, V, and Belkar). It let them kill a bunch of monsters for XP and then immediately pick up a lot of the loot too. By limiting how much loot they could pick up, it gave the weaker melee characters a chance to walk in and share in the loot. We also liked the loot-gathering mini-game that would spring up whenever a large loot pile formed (especially in the lower levels). It also had the nice side effect of giving the characters another reason to stay close to each other.

To further help with the loot balance, Haley, Elan, and Durkon also have other ways to increase the amount of loot they collect in the game (Haley has a shtick that simply lets her pick up extra loot, Elan has a shtick that makes him more attractive when offering loot for assistance in battle, and Durkon can offer to heal other players in exchange for loot).

Because we felt we had balanced the loot gathering and the shtick gathering, we decided that they should contribute equally to the victory condition. At the end of the game, some characters tend toward having more shticks while others tend toward having more loot. We tried a lot of different variations and the rules we finally settled on seemed to hold up the best across numerous play tests.

If you happen to try out some rule tweaks, please post your results. We would be interested to hear how your change affected the gameplay (either positively or negatively).

[Madame_Zelia]

If you happen to try out some rule tweaks, please post your results. We would be interested to hear how your change affected the gameplay (either positively or negatively).


I see your point, as has been raised by another in our group. My Marxist ways are likely to be mediated a bit. =)

We're all bouncing around some ideas to see what would happen. The Haley-player pointed out that with some changes suggested, she'd only get more powerful. Maybe the issue is the loot to victory point ratio. Only time and tweaking will tell.

[caestepp]

Okay, this is gonna be an odd question but:

How many of the promo cards is one "supposed" to play the game with? It would seem to me that it should be just one since each person at the GenCon booth got one, but I just want to make sure.
There are no odd questions, only odd answers...

I would recommend only adding one of the Zombie Gamer promo cards to a game set. You may have noticed that the vast majority of the monsters in the battle deck are unique (ie. only one instance of the card in the deck). Only a few of the lower power monsters have multiples.

In keeping with this spirit, I would recommend treating the Zombie Gamers as more of a "named villain" that shows up once per game rather than as an "anonymous henchman" that shows up around every corner.

Also keep in mind that the Zombie Gamer card received less playtesting than the other cards so inserting a bunch of them into the game may yield unpredictable results.

[apegamer]

Got another two:

Lets say that on dungeon floor ends up with two stairs leading down from it (this would be possible is someone found the stairs, and also used the Screw This card that puts in a set of stairs). Now the dungeon is collapsing and we are removing rooms, which set of stairs gets the room below it removed, or does it not matter?

Some monsters say that you cannot use any sticks with are range 0 against them, which puts an odd possibility out for Haley. Lets say Haley has her bow and the Shtick that lets her use her bow at range 0 with +1/+1 (Sneak Attack I believe). If she just used her bow against the monster, she would get just the bonuses from the bow. She can't use a range 0 weapon on the monster, but the bow has a range of greater than 0. The Sneak Attack card says you get the bonus when making an attack at range 0 with the bow. So by a strict reading of the cards, I should be able to use my range 4 bow to attack the creature that cant be attacked with range 0 weapons, but also use my range 4 bow as a range 0 weapon to get the bonus from Sneak Attack since though I am using it as a range 0 weapon it is still a range 4 weapon. Im pretty sure that was not the intent, but by strict wording, that is the meaning. Should this not be possible?


I think both these have been answered before in this thread, but it's getting quite long, and since they're coming up again, I'll add notes for both of these into the Clarifications section of the FAQ (which one of the moderators really should make sticky.)

I'll try to get to that later today.

[apegamer]

Btw, can we get a list of the people that can give "official rulings" on rules questions?

So far it seems to be:

The Giant (Creator of OOTS)
Apegamer (C0-creater of OOTS boardgame)
Krago (Playtester and GenCon demoer)

Anyone else?

Good question. The three names listed here are the authorities. Trust No One Else! They'll only spread lies and rumors.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Good question. The three names listed here are the authorities. Trust No One Else! They'll only spread lies and rumors.
Damn, there go my plans for the evening.

EDIT: There was a question that was going to go here, but then I re-examined the rules and realized it was a) already covered and b) pretty dumb.

[Ubeor]

We played last night, and a few issues came up.

1) How do you handle it when Haley uses her double shot schtick (roll twice, take the highest) against a monster with Multiattack (roll twice/three times, take the highest)? Do they cancel each other out? Or is there some other way to handle this?

2) Does anyone else find Roy's Great Cleavage schtick to be too powerful? We had one encounter on dungeon level 3 that, thanks to Redcloak, demon roaches, and a few well-placed Goblin Necromancers, soon turned into a battle-size 22 encounter! Included in the stack were 3 Linear Guild members (Nale, Thog, and Yikyik). By the time Roy got to them, his Great Cleavage (hee hee... Roy has boobies) was high enough that he didn't even have to roll. He got enough monster cards from the battle to receive 8 schticks just from the trade-ins!

We're now considering implementing a house rule limiting the battle size to a max of 10.

[apegamer]

We played last night, and a few issues came up.

1) How do you handle it when Haley uses her double shot schtick (roll twice, take the highest) against a monster with Multiattack (roll twice/three times, take the highest)? Do they cancel each other out? Or is there some other way to handle this?

I'll add this clarification to the FAQ as it is a bit confusing. Assuming the monster has Multiattack 3, then Haley would:

1) Roll two dice and remember the best result.

2) Roll two dice again, and remember the best result.

3) Roll two dice again, and remember the best result.

4) Use the worst of the three results.



2) Does anyone else find Roy's Great Cleavage schtick to be too powerful?

<Ruling on Great Cleavage forthcoming>

[The Giant]

We played last night, and a few issues came up.

1) How do you handle it when Haley uses her double shot schtick (roll twice, take the highest) against a monster with Multiattack (roll twice/three times, take the highest)? Do they cancel each other out? Or is there some other way to handle this?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Kevin here:

There is no conflict. Multiattack only works when the monster is on Attack, Double Shot only works when Haley is on Attack. Haley and the monster cannot both be on Attack at the same time.

This should still be in the FAQ, though, because it may not be immediately apparent.


2) Does anyone else find Roy's Great Cleavage schtick to be too powerful? We had one encounter on dungeon level 3 that, thanks to Redcloak, demon roaches, and a few well-placed Goblin Necromancers, soon turned into a battle-size 22 encounter! Included in the stack were 3 Linear Guild members (Nale, Thog, and Yikyik). By the time Roy got to them, his Great Cleavage (hee hee... Roy has boobies) was high enough that he didn't even have to roll. He got enough monster cards from the battle to receive 8 schticks just from the trade-ins!

There's an arguement to be made that if your players didn't want Roy to be able to cut through so many monsters in one round, they would have stopped feeding the Battle Size with more Goblins/Undead/etc. There's a point where the other players need to get together and say, "Hey, if we keep making this battle bigger, Roy is going to whomp all over it." And if it just happened once as a random fluke because no one had any monsters that weren't goblins, well, then it was a random fluke that went Roy's way. That's life, no one said the game was going to be fair every time.


We're now considering implementing a house rule limiting the battle size to a max of 10.

If this happens a lot in your games, then yeah, that would be reasonable.

[apegamer]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Kevin here:

There is no conflict. Multiattack only works when the monster is on Attack, Double Shot only works when Haley is on Attack. Haley and the monster cannot both be on Attack at the same time.

Gah, you're right! This came up before, and I gave the same answer only to later figure out that each only works when they're attacking. The FAQ will be updated accordingly.



There's an arguement to be made that if your players didn't want Roy to be able to cut through so many monsters in one round, they would have stopped feeding the Battle Size with more Goblins/Undead/etc. There's a point where the other players need to get together and say, "Hey, if we keep making this battle bigger, Roy is going to whomp all over it."

As a suggestion, you can add speed bumps into a battle pile that Roy will have trouble with. Invulnerable monsters, for instance.

[Solution9]

Well my friends and I were playing the game for the first time and we were confused on a few things:

1) This has to be a silly question but it seems the loot can make it too easy to kill any monster when you have enough equiped. Is there a limit to how much loot you can equip? Also because of this do monsters get more powerfull as you go down in levels to balance this?

2) On the attack/deffence is there an auto fail roll (or would that just be a house rule)?

3) I don't know it seems Haly's ability to look at the loot is too easy and a bit unbalanced at times is there something else to the ability we just didn't pick up on? (Most likely not).

I think I have more questions but I can't think of them at this time so I'll have to rethink some more for later. Thanks.

[The Giant]

1) This has to be a silly question but it seems the loot can make it too easy to kill any monster when you have enough equiped. Is there a limit to how much loot you can equip?

I'm not sure what you mean. There are only a handful of Loot cards that grant any bonuses to killing Monsters, and most of them can only be used by one character. How does equipping a lot of Loot make Monsters easier to kill? Can you give an example?


Also because of this do monsters get more powerfull as you go down in levels to balance this?

Not inherently, but many monsters have Support abilities which are fueled by other monsters on the same level--and there are more likely to be those monsters there the further down you go.


2) On the attack/deffence is there an auto fail roll (or would that just be a house rule)?

It's a variant rule; check out the Variants on page 23 of the rulebook.


3) I don't know it seems Haly's ability to look at the loot is too easy and a bit unbalanced at times is there something else to the ability we just didn't pick up on? (Most likely not).

You need to flip the shtick in order to use it. That means that Haley cannot use it again until she rests or leaves the dungeon, both of which end her turn without gaining any XP or Loot. So if she spends all of her time resting to unflip that shtick, she will end up losing out in the long run.

[Solution9]

Darn you beat me to my own post I figured out a few things on my own once again but oh well.
But anywho about equiping loot cards, from what I understand in the rules that the more loot cards you have equiped that the character drools over adds bonuses to your attack/defence rolls. So if Elan had two equiped loots that had one face each is that not a +2 to attack/defence? So if thats the case having more of those adds a huge bonus which could inheritanly make you rediculas correct? Please tell me I'm not understanding that part correctly.

[apegamer]

No, you can give loot to other players to assist you in battle. For each of their faces on the loot, you get a +2 to your roll.

If loot has YOUR face on it, then equipping it will not give you +2. You should save this, and trade them in for shticks when you get enough faces.

[PrometheusRex]

Regarding a monster's Bloodlust ability, if I understand correctly, this ability would cause any schtick that causes a draw on result an automatic loser, correct? For instance, Durkon using Big Heavy Armor or Haley using Hide would be pointless, because even if Durkon/Haley wins, the schtick makes the battle a draw instead, and Bloodlust makes the draw into a loss. Or do the abilities not stack like that?

[apegamer]

You're right. If Durkon uses Big Heavy Armor against a monster with Bloodlust, and wins, then the result of the shtick (which says that the battle is a draw) means that he actually loses.

In short, don't use shticks that say the battle is a draw against monsters with Bloodlust.

[mikecyr]

You can give loot to an NPC if your picture is on it. However, giving it to the NPC essentially removes it from the game, and then it cannot be used to trade in for shticks.


I think this should be added to the main FAQ. Reading the rules, it's easy to come to the conclusion that you can't give loot to an NPC that both you and the NPC drool over, since you're still a Player.

[mikecyr]

We had one encounter on dungeon level 3 that, thanks to Redcloak, demon roaches, and a few well-placed Goblin Necromancers, soon turned into a battle-size 22 encounter!


Amateurs! ;)

My group just finished our first game the other night, and we ended up with one battle with a final battle size of 42. After the first dozen or so, I think we all wanted to end it, but a number of us were low on cards at that point and had no choice but to add monsters that increased the battle size. By the end, we had monsters that had the Hoard support ability for goblins (this was Redcloak on Xykon's level, who started it all), as well as kobolds, fiends, and undead. So demon roaches increased the battle size by 4, and we had 2 or 3 of them, plus the demon roach king (or something like that).

This all happened when one of the players decided to enter the last unexplored room on Xykon's level, even though we'd already found Xykon (who had a battle size of a mere 15). When he first showed up, Xykon's attack and defense were 34, but we managed to reduce them to 28 by eliminating some monsters in another room giving him support. But when Redcloak showed up, it raised Xykon's attack and defense to 52.

All told, our first "short" game was about 8-9 hours. This was after starting a couple earlier games, but not being able to finish them due to time, so it's not like we were still learning the rules when we played this time.

[mikecyr]

You're right. If Durkon uses Big Heavy Armor against a monster with Bloodlust, and wins, then the result of the shtick (which says that the battle is a draw) means that he actually loses.


In the same vein, the rules say that if you attack a monster with a ranged attack, and that monster doesn't have enough range to reach you, any result that would lead to a win for the monster is instead considered a draw. A strict interpretation of the rules would indicate that if the monster had Bloodlust, you would still take a wound, but I think this is one of those areas where one should interpret the rules in the spirit in which they were intended. But correct me if I am wrong.

[apegamer]

There has been a lot of mention about the duration of the game. While the game can go more or less as long as you want it to, it's also possible to finish the game in the listed time.

For instance, at GenCon, all 7 of the full games we played at the events finished in the alloted 4 hours, including explaining rules to people who'd not played the game.

I will say, though that in the games we ran, people pushed out going to the Xykon level as long as they could, for fear that Xykon and his minions would annihilate them. But in each case, Xykon eventually fell.

[Traveling_Angel]

2) Does anyone else find Roy's Great Cleavage schtick to be too powerful? We had one encounter on dungeon level 3 that, thanks to Redcloak, demon roaches, and a few well-placed Goblin Necromancers, soon turned into a battle-size 22 encounter! Included in the stack were 3 Linear Guild members (Nale, Thog, and Yikyik). By the time Roy got to them, his Great Cleavage (hee hee... Roy has boobies) was high enough that he didn't even have to roll. He got enough monster cards from the battle to receive 8 schticks just from the trade-ins!



If I read the rules right, you can only trade monsters/loot for schticks at the end and beginning of a turn.



also, when you have enough exp to trade for 2 or more schticks (ie three 2 exp monsters) how is this handled?

[Justin_Miller]

On page 21 of the Rulebook.

You may turn in as many Monsters as you wish at one time. You gain one shtick draw for every 3 x symbols.

I assume that means you draw three shticks, choose one, put the other two on the bottom of your shtick deck, then draw the top three shticks on the deck after putting the other two on the bottom... choose one of the new three, and put the other two under the first "other two"... continue doing so.

I'm assuming you were asking if you could choose 2 or even all of the three cards drawn when you trade in monsters...

And of course... maybe I shouldn't even be replying, as I've only read the rules (over and over and over and over... and over) and not played the game yet.

[tgva8889]

I think you do them one at a time, and as you get no "change" XP, if you had 3 2-XP monsters, you would only get 1 shtick. Granted, I haven't played and am not an authority, so...

[Traveling_Angel]

On page 21 of the Rulebook.

You may turn in as many Monsters as you wish at one time. You gain one shtick draw for every 3 x symbols.

I assume that means you draw three shticks, choose one, put the other two on the bottom of your shtick deck, then draw the top three shticks on the deck after putting the other two on the bottom... choose one of the new three, and put the other two under the first "other two"... continue doing so.

I'm assuming you were asking if you could choose 2 or even all of the three cards drawn when you trade in monsters...

And of course... maybe I shouldn't even be replying, as I've only read the rules (over and over and over and over... and over) and not played the game yet.

thanks, although I would like an official ruling. and I'm with you on the last part.

[Justin_Miller]

I think you do them one at a time, and as you get no "change" XP, if you had 3 2-XP monsters, you would only get 1 shtick. Granted, I haven't played and am not an authority, so...


If you had 3 "2 XP" monsters, you'd have a total of 6 XP... you need 3 to get a new shtick... so 6/3=2... thus you'd be able to draw two shticks seperately.

Now, if you had a 3 XP monster and 2 "2 XP" monsters... you'd have 3+2+2=7. If you turned in all THREE of THOSE monsters to the Battle Deck Discard Pile, you'd get 2 shticks (for 6 of the 7 XP) and the last XP would be lost, as you had to discard the monster with the "extra" XP point that you didn't use.

THAT is what they mean by "not getting change".

At least... I'm about 99% sure that's what they mean.

Edit: Added emphasis on "those"

[Solution9]

If you had 3 "2 XP" monsters, you'd have a total of 6 XP... you need 3 to get a new shtick... so 6/3=2... thus you'd be able to draw two shticks seperately.

Now, if you had a 3 XP monster and 2 "2 XP" monsters... you'd have 3+2+2=7. If you turned in all THREE of THOSE monsters to the Battle Deck Discard Pile, you'd get 2 shticks (for 6 of the 7 XP) and the last XP would be lost, as you had to discard the monster with the "extra" XP point that you didn't use.

THAT is what they mean by "not getting change".

At least... I'm about 99% sure that's what they mean.

Edit: Added emphasis on "those"

Nope, you are exactly right.

[Traveling_Angel]

Another question. The rules (at least the download) say after losing your last wound you immediately move 3 toward the entrance. The examples says on his next turn he moves. ???

[apegamer]

thanks, although I would like an official ruling. and I'm with you on the last part.

That's exactly right. Justin Miller's comment about not getting change is also right.

Heck, I don't need to check back here so often, looks like this is pretty well under control!

;)

[Kaertos]

Does Xykon start at the top of the battle stack when he appears in the game or does he move to the back? I can come up with a good reason for both, but I was wondering if there was an official word in the rules book and I am just not seeing it.

[caestepp]

Does Xykon start at the top of the battle stack when he appears in the game or does he move to the back?
Xykon should be the first monster you face in the room where he appears. This ensures that he gains all of the support benefits from the other monsters that are played into the room.

Note: This is true for all Xykon Monster cards (not just the Xykon card). As the first card played into the room, the Xykon Monster card always goes at the top of the battle stack and is therefore encountered first in battle.

The only thing different about battling Xykon is that you never actually get to fight the other monsters in that room. When Xykon is defeated, the dungeon begins to collapse and the other monsters in the room immediately flee the dungeon.

[rwald]

OK, I have not played the game, only read the rulebook online, but I have a couple of questions. I'm pretty sure I know the answers, but I figured it's better to ask, so these can be added to the FAQ if deemed appropriate.

1. If I'm not in the same square as a monster, do I care that it has flying? In particular, if I'm in the square next to it and have a range of 1, is it in range, or is it effectively one square over, one square "up"? My interpretation of flying is "if range is 0, require a ranged weapon but treat as a normal attack for all effects; otherwise, absolutely no change." I'm curious if I'm right, though.

2. If a creature has both flying and tricky, and I'm in the same square as it and shooting with a ranged weapon, does it get the +10 bonus on Defense? The rules suggest that it does not (even though it's a ranged weapon, and you're required to use a ranged weapon to hit, it's still not a ranged attack), but I figured a direct answer would be a good idea.

Edit: Maybe I was misinterpreting things...reading the FAQ, it sounds like flying basically adds +1 to range for all effects. Is this accurate?

[The Giant]

OK, I have not played the game, only read the rulebook online, but I have a couple of questions. I'm pretty sure I know the answers, but I figured it's better to ask, so these can be added to the FAQ if deemed appropriate.

1. If I'm not in the same square as a monster, do I care that it has flying? In particular, if I'm in the square next to it and have a range of 1, is it in range, or is it effectively one square over, one square "up"? My interpretation of flying is "if range is 0, require a ranged weapon but treat as a normal attack for all effects; otherwise, absolutely no change." I'm curious if I'm right, though.

Flying does not in any way affect the Range to the monster.

All Flying does is prevent players from using a Shtick that has a listed Range of 0 when fighting that monster. Since you already can't attack a monster at Range > 0 unless your shtick has a listed Range > 0, Flying status has no actual effect on ranged attacks.


2. If a creature has both flying and tricky, and I'm in the same square as it and shooting with a ranged weapon, does it get the +10 bonus on Defense? The rules suggest that it does not (even though it's a ranged weapon, and you're required to use a ranged weapon to hit, it's still not a ranged attack), but I figured a direct answer would be a good idea.

No, it does not get the +10 bonus in that case. The exact wording says that if the actual Range to the monster is greater than 0, it gains +10 Defense--it does not mention the listed Range on the shtick you are using, which is therefore not relevent. A monster with Flying and Tricky would get the effects of Tricky against attacks coming from another room, and the effects of Flying on attacks coming from the same room.


Edit: Maybe I was misinterpreting things...reading the FAQ, it sounds like flying basically adds +1 to range for all effects. Is this accurate?

No. Flying prevents the usage of shticks with a listed Range of 0, that's all. Think of it as working exactly like Impervious, which prevents use of Weapon Shticks. Only in this case, replace "Weapon Shticks" with "Shticks with a printed Range of 0".

EDIT: I went back and read the FAQ; I disagree with the response stating that Sneak Attack cannot work at Range 0 against a Flying monster. The text of Sneak Attack says that it works at Range 0, and if you are in the same room with a Monster, you have a Range of 0. Period. Whether or not the Monster has Flying is irrelevent. Flying has exactly one game effect: to prevent the use of Shticks with a listed Range of 0. Sneak Attack does not have a listed Range score of 0; it does not have a listed Range score AT ALL--because it is not a Battle Shtick. Therefore, Sneak Attack should still work against a Flying monster at Range 0 with Haley's Longbow.

The answer regarding the Leap Attack is still accurate, because Leap Attack actually changes the Range score of Twin Daggers of Doom.

[Arcade]

Here's a question I couldn't find an answer to:

In a player versus player battle,the winner gets to take an equipped loot from the other player or a random loot from your loot stash if you don't have equipped loot. After this, in the aftermath, you have to give any promised loot to anyone who helped you in the combat. Is the loot that was promised by the losing character to the assisting characters off limits, or can the winner take loot that was supposed to go to another character? If the winner does get to take loot that was supposed to go to another character, what happens then?

Same question, but for when you lose against a monster who has the theif ability.

[apegamer]

After this, in the aftermath, you have to give any promised loot to anyone who helped you in the combat.


Loot is given before the combat. You can't, in fact, give loot to someone after the combat becasue you may not have loot that they Drool Over.

[Arcade]

Loot is given before the combat. You can't, in fact, give loot to someone after the combat becasue you may not have loot that they Drool Over.

OK. That makes sense. I'm looking at part 7, "Aftermath", of the "Attacking a Monster" section between pages 14 and 15. On the last bullet it states:
"If you offered loot to any other player (active or NPC) for assistance in battle, you must now give that Loot to those players- whether you won or lost the battle."
It makes it sound like you don't give out loot until after the battle is done. But your answer works a lot better and takes care of any of these conflicts.

Thanks.

[apegamer]

"If you offered loot to any other player (active or NPC) for assistance in battle, you must now give that Loot to those players- whether you won or lost the battle."


Technically that's true. In our playing, we always give the loot immediately upon offering it, as it's just easier. There are some effects, though, that cause the loot to not be given, and so sometimes the loot needs to be given back.

[Arcade]

Technically that's true. In our playing, we always give the loot immediately upon offering it, as it's just easier. There are some effects, though, that cause the loot to not be given, and so sometimes the loot needs to be given back.


And so to really beat this horse to death, I assume that any loot you promise to someone else can't be used in the battle you are waging. For instance, Elan can't promise the "Elveniest Boots Ever" to Haley for assistance and then use them in the same fight to boost his "Hide" schtick.

[Doughboy120]

Schtick turn-in?

Do you pick a random Schtick from the pile or do you search through the deck and pick the one you want?

[Fujin]

Schtick turn-in?

Do you pick a random Schtick from the pile or do you search through the deck and pick the one you want?

If you are gaining the schtick from experience (trading in three X's from defeated monsters) you take the top three cards from the schtick deck and choose one, placing the other two at the bottom of the schtick deck.

If you gain a schtick in any other way (trading in loot with three drool factor, a room effect or Screw This! effect, etc), you must take the top schtick in the pile.

For future referance, this information is found on page 21 of the rulebook :)

[Panzar_NSidious]

Okay here is the situation from last night. Haley was in the middle of the second floor. Elan moved into a new room three rooms to the left of Haley and three monsters (first one had leadership, the second is flying) are discovered and Elan hides. Belkar moves into a room two rooms to the right of Haley and two monsters are discovered and Belkar loses his roll. Then when Haley’s turn rolled around she ranged attacked the three monsters in Elan’s room defeating them with her +4 range attack. She then attacks the two monsters in Belkar’s room defeating them as well.

So here are the questions:
Can she attack more than one monster in Elan’s stack with her range attack?
Can she attack both stacks with her range attack?
Does she need +3 or +4 to range to attack a flying creature three rooms away? .

I searched through the threads and did not find my answer to the first two. The third seems to be +4 but while I was asking . . .

[fngkestrel]

I had a question regarding fleeing as it's explained in the rulebook. The example and the official text seem to conflict.

In the text, it says that the person fleeing immediately drops loot and then immediately moves 3 spaces, even on someone else's turn.

However, in the example, Elan enters "fleeing mode", drops an item of loot, but does not move three spaces until it's his NEXT turn.

So which one is correct?

[Arcade]

So here are the questions:
Can she attack more than one monster in Elan’s stack with her range attack?
Can she attack both stacks with her range attack?
Does she need +3 or +4 to range to attack a flying creature three rooms away? .



On page 15 of the rules in section 8:
You may not continue to battle additional monsters if you make a Ranged Attack into a room; you must be in the same room as the Monsters in order to continue.

This should answer questions 1 and 2.

[rwald]

How many duplicate unique monsters are there? I know Redcloak appears twice, but how often does the "if a second unique monster is placed, the first one is discarded" rule actually get used?

[Fujin]

I had a question regarding fleeing as it's explained in the rulebook. The example and the official text seem to conflict.

In the text, it says that the person fleeing immediately drops loot and then immediately moves 3 spaces, even on someone else's turn.

However, in the example, Elan enters "fleeing mode", drops an item of loot, but does not move three spaces until it's his NEXT turn.

So which one is correct?



Unfortunately, there is no "official" rule on this. My group uses the house rule that you must flee as quickly as normal movement would allow. If it is your turn, and you have not yet moved, you drop a loot and flee, otherwise you must wait until your next turn (as it is either not your turn or you've already exhausted your movement).

[apegamer]

I have not abandoned this topic. Once we get out from under the Pre-Order Shipping Monster (Attack: 18, Defence: 18, Impervious, Enchanted, Support - Everything) I'll be back in full force.

[Uthrac]

Does she need +3 or +4 to range to attack a flying creature three rooms away? .


+3. See The Giant's post on page 5 of this forum.

[mac13eth]

I would like some clarification on a couple of screw this cards.

On the "I forgot they could do that" card being used on a Leader or Horde ability: Which monsters are removed? The last ones played or the next ones played after the leader/horde trigger?

On the Screw this cards that grant a +3 to one type of monster, can that be played AFTER a roll of the dice to cause a win to become a loss? I understand there is a +1 card that can change the result of a battle, but the +3 card doesn't say one way or the other.

Thank you, by the way, for a very fun game, I look forward to the expansions.

[qhudspeth]

Hiya, Just opened my shiny new pre-order of the OotS Game, and I seek clarification on giving Assistance.

The description of what you can do while Attacking a monster implies characters who render Assistance lose a turn. However, I can't find another mention of the consequences of rendering Assistance in the rules (be nice to have that as a heading somewhere).

So, is that so? Do characters who render Assistance lose a turn?

edit: 5:07 pm — I see now where I was confused, for the want of an appropriately placed pause. "You may ask any other player on the same floor as you who is not resting or missing a turn for assistance." When I read that, I didn't pause right, and saw "missing a turn for assistance" as meaning someone who had assisted would miss a turn. A comma between you and who, and another between turn and for would have helped. But I get it now.

Thanks,
Q

[Arcade]

The description of what you can do while Attacking a monster implies characters who render Assistance lose a turn. However, I can't find another mention of the consequences of rendering Assistance in the rules (be nice to have that as a heading somewhere).

So, is that so? Do characters who render Assistance lose a turn?
Q

No, giving assistance does not make you lose a turn. The only disadvantage of giving assistance is that you help another player, but you get loot out of it, so it's likely worth it.

[Fujin]

I would like some clarification on a couple of screw this cards.

On the "I forgot they could do that" card being used on a Leader or Horde ability: Which monsters are removed? The last ones played or the next ones played after the leader/horde trigger?

On the Screw this cards that grant a +3 to one type of monster, can that be played AFTER a roll of the dice to cause a win to become a loss? I understand there is a +1 card that can change the result of a battle, but the +3 card doesn't say one way or the other.

The "I forgot they could do that" ability causes the last monsters not to be played (it really should be played -before- the cards are revealed, if at all possible). Both of these abilities cause the battle size to increase, but do not alter the order of monsters that are played. If these abilities are ignored, then the "additional" monsters are simply never played.

As for the +3 cards, ("Arm Zombies" for example,) since they do not explicitly state that they can be played after the dice are rolled, then it is assumed they can't. As a general rule, when one card explicitly states that it can do something, assume other cards can't (unless they also state they can, obviously).

[Traveling_Angel]

I fail to see how Leap attack + Twin Daggers of Doom can't be used to attack a flying monster. If Flying doesn't matter at a range greater then 0, then how can it prevent said attack?

[Fujin]

I fail to see how Leap attack + Twin Daggers of Doom can't be used to attack a flying monster. If Flying doesn't matter at a range greater then 0, then how can it prevent said attack?

Effectively, it works like this:

Flying prevents the use of schticks with a range of 0 from being used. Twin Daggers of Doom has a range of 0. The fact it is being modified by another card doesn't matter, the printed range is 0.

Flying is meant to represent the need for a -ranged weapon- to fight the monster. Leaping Attack represents belkar's ability to leap into battle unexpectedly, but is by no stretch of the imagination is a ranged attack.

[Arcade]

Effectively, it works like this:

Flying prevents the use of schticks with a range of 0 from being used. Twin Daggers of Doom has a range of 0. The fact it is being modified by another card doesn't matter, the printed range is 0.

Flying is meant to represent the need for a -ranged weapon- to fight the monster. Leaping Attack represents belkar's ability to leap into battle unexpectedly, but is by no stretch of the imagination is a ranged attack.

That explains nothing to me ... The FAQ says Belkar can attack flying creatures in the same room as him, but not one room away. Your explanation says he can't attack any flying creatures. There's some sort of contradiction here and I just don't understand it.

[apegamer]

That explains nothing to me ... The FAQ says Belkar can attack flying creatures in the same room as him, but not one room away. Your explanation says he can't attack any flying creatures. There's some sort of contradiction here and I just don't understand it.


If you've not seen it, Rich's post on this on page 5 of this topic explains how this works. I have post-it note on my monitor to update the FAQ.

[Sothicus]

Based on Rich's comments on page 5, will the FAQ get revised? He says that he disagrees with the FAQ that Sneak Attack will not work on Flying creatures.

Flying (according to Rich) is only supposed to affect what "range" of an attack can be in order to be successful.

[apegamer]

Based on Rich's comments on page 5, will the FAQ get revised?

Yes, the FAQ will be updated accordingly.

[Johan]

Okay, we started playing our first game last night and hit a snag.

When do you draw more cards into your battle hand?

[Fujin]

Okay, we started playing our first game last night and hit a snag.

When do you draw more cards into your battle hand?

Whenever you are required to play a monster, and can't, you must discard your hand and draw a new battle hand of seven cards.

[Moebius]

Two rules questions came up in our latest game of OotS:

The rules (say you can start in a room, pick up one Loot, move, and fight in another room – and if you clear that room , you can pick up up to two more Loot. However, Haley’s “Come to Me, My Pretties” schtick says, “As always, you may pick Loot only once per turn.” Which is correct?

The second rules question is a bit trickier. I guess I’ll explain the situation first:
I’m the first one down into Xykon’s lair, and have found him. Thanks to various supporting monsters already on this level, the Battle Size starts at 12…. and keeps getting bigger as we play more monsters. Pretty soon, Xykon’s stats are into the stratosphere, because of his Support: Assist ability. But then, on one of my Battle Deck redraws (I have to play monsters into this fight too, after all), I pull “Screw this! I Forgot They Could Do That” – and play it immediately to cancel Support: Assist and bring Xykon’s Attack value down to 16. We keep playing monsters – there end up being 49 in the stack. Since they’re not Supporting him, however, I manage to kill him. Without the ‘I Forgot…’, his Attack would have been over 50 – way out of my range.

Now, I’m wondering if that was entirely legal, even though the other players let me do it. The ‘I Forgot…’ card says “When any player (including you) is battling a Monster.” Since we were still busy populating the room, was I battling Xykon yet? If I’d had to wait until the monster stack was completed, I would have had to discard the ‘I Forgot’ card before I could have used it, in order to draw more Monster cards.

[Fujin]

Two rules questions came up in our latest game of OotS:

The rules (say you can start in a room, pick up one Loot, move, and fight in another room – and if you clear that room , you can pick up up to two more Loot. However, Haley’s “Come to Me, My Pretties” schtick says, “As always, you may pick Loot only once per turn.” Which is correct?

Both. As it specifes on page 15 of the rulebook "If you defeated the last monster in the room in which you are located, you may immediately draw the top two loot from that room into your Loot Stash. This is a bonus, above and beyond any Loot you would normally pick up at the beginning or ending of your turn."

Or, in brief, the battle-loot isn't considered "loot you pick up." Its bonus :).


The second rules question is a bit trickier. I guess I’ll explain the situation first:
I’m the first one down into Xykon’s lair, and have found him. Thanks to various supporting monsters already on this level, the Battle Size starts at 12…. and keeps getting bigger as we play more monsters. Pretty soon, Xykon’s stats are into the stratosphere, because of his Support: Assist ability. But then, on one of my Battle Deck redraws (I have to play monsters into this fight too, after all), I pull “Screw this! I Forgot They Could Do That” – and play it immediately to cancel Support: Assist and bring Xykon’s Attack value down to 16. We keep playing monsters – there end up being 49 in the stack. Since they’re not Supporting him, however, I manage to kill him. Without the ‘I Forgot…’, his Attack would have been over 50 – way out of my range.

Now, I’m wondering if that was entirely legal, even though the other players let me do it. The ‘I Forgot…’ card says “When any player (including you) is battling a Monster.” Since we were still busy populating the room, was I battling Xykon yet? If I’d had to wait until the monster stack was completed, I would have had to discard the ‘I Forgot’ card before I could have used it, in order to draw more Monster cards.


Technically, thats an illegal move, but not for the reason you suspect.

"I forgot they could do that" lets you ignore an ability the monster has. Abilities are things listed in the back of the rulebook, such as Flying, Bloodlust, Leader, or Invulnerable. Support is not an ability, its a characteristic of the monster, same as its attack rating.

However, what would have been a legal play would have been to play "I forgot..." on Xykon's Horde ability, which would have immediately reduced the battle size to 5, (4th lair + Leader). Any monster beyond the 5th would be discarded, and Xykon's Attack and Defense would have been quite manageable for you :).

But yes, you can play "I forgot" during the "Play Monster Step", as its still within the combat section of the rules.

Hope that helps!

[anarce]

Both. As it specifes on page 15 of the rulebook "If you defeated the last monster in the room in which you are located, you may immediately draw the top two loot from that room into your Loot Stash. This is a bonus, above and beyond any Loot you would normally pick up at the beginning or ending of your turn."

Or, in brief, the battle-loot isn't considered "loot you pick up." Its bonus :).


This is the way I interpreted it at first too, but when I was re-reading the rules I saw this on page 25 in the "Picking Up Loot" example box:

"Roy immediately picks up the top two, as his bonus for killing the last Monster. He cannot pick up a third, even though he did not pick up any Loot before moving."

Why not?? ???

Another question: Is picking up Loot the only thing that you can't do BOTH at the beginning AND end of your turn? For example, could I equip Loot at the beginning of my turn, move, battle, collect loot, and then equip Loot again? Could I do the same thing with turning in monsters for shticks?

Thanks for this thread and the FAQ! They've answered a lot of my other questions (like about flying) already.

edit: I thought of another one. With a 2-player game, the first player adds 2 monsters to the battle stack and then the second player adds one if the battle size is 3 or more. If it's more than 3, does it keep alternating 2-1-2-1-2-1... or does the first player only play 2 monsters the first time so the order is 2-1-1-1-1...?

[Gamer5389]

"Roy immediately picks up the top two, as his bonus for killing the last Monster. He cannot pick up a third, even though he did not pick up any Loot before moving."

Why not?? ???

Another question: Is picking up Loot the only thing that you can't do BOTH at the beginning AND end of your turn?

Krago's reply for the first question

During early playtesting we started out letting folks pick up larger amounts of loot. I don't really remember it speeding up the game, but it did make the game more imbalanced toward the stronger melee characters (Roy, V, and Belkar). It let them kill a bunch of monsters for XP and then immediately pick up a lot of the loot too. By limiting how much loot they could pick up, it gave the weaker melee characters a chance to walk in and share in the loot. We also liked the loot-gathering mini-game that would spring up whenever a large loot pile formed (especially in the lower levels). It also had the nice side effect of giving the characters another reason to stay close to each other.


For the second question, you may only search for stairs once per turn as well. For loot, and shticks, the rulebook states "as often as you are willing and able." Don't see any such ruling about equipping loot for either way.

[Vojoc]

My group played our first round of OOTSBG tonight.

We ran into a problem, since we had only five players. We played without Elan. The rules do not state that we should remove loot that Elan drools over. Should we remove it, or keep it in the game and make it worthless until points are counted in the end? Generally, I would prefer to remove loot that Elan drools over, but how far should we go? Should we remove loot that ONLY Elan drools over, or loot that Elan as well as other PCs drool over?

I also felt that on the whole, Durkon was rather disadvantaged. The way I read Cure Assorted Wounds particularly bothered me. Opon boosting Cure Assorted Wounds once, Durkon heals for 2 points and takes one loot. This seems good, since people will be more likely to agree to let Durkon heal them in exchange for loot. However, a twice boosted Cure Assorted Wounds heals three points and provides Durkon with one loot. This seems to actually be a worse deal for Durkon, as healing for three points does not actually give Durkon much of an advantage. Was the amount of loot Durkon recieves meant to change or not?

[jwolfe]

We ran into a problem, since we had only five players. We played without Elan. The rules do not state that we should remove loot that Elan drools over. Should we remove it, or keep it in the game and make it worthless until points are counted in the end? Generally, I would prefer to remove loot that Elan drools over, but how far should we go? Should we remove loot that ONLY Elan drools over, or loot that Elan as well as other PCs drool over?

Loot that Elan drools over is still useful. Elan becomes an NPC (see the sidebar on page 13 of the rules).

[anarce]

Thanks for the reply, Gamer5389, but Krago's reply doesn't quite answer the question. The rulebook seems to contradict itself.

Page 15 says that picking up 2 loot for killing a monster is a bonus, and I can still pick up loot at the end of my turn.

Page 25 in the example says that Roy can't pick up loot at the end of his turn.

Which one is correct?

[Argus]

Technically, thats an illegal move, but not for the reason you suspect.

"I forgot they could do that" lets you ignore an ability the monster has. Abilities are things listed in the back of the rulebook, such as Flying, Bloodlust, Leader, or Invulnerable. Support is not an ability, its a characteristic of the monster, same as its attack rating.

However, what would have been a legal play would have been to play "I forgot..." on Xykon's Horde ability, which would have immediately reduced the battle size to 5, (4th lair + Leader). Any monster beyond the 5th would be discarded, and Xykon's Attack and Defense would have been quite manageable for you :).

But yes, you can play "I forgot" during the "Play Monster Step", as its still within the combat section of the rules.

Hope that helps!
You seem to contradict yourself. Why do you consider the Horde ability (listed on page 31) to be valid for "I Forgot..." but not the Assist ability (listed on page 31)?

[Argus]

If you've not seen it, Rich's post on this on page 5 of this topic explains how this works. I have post-it note on my monitor to update the FAQ.

So that, essentially, Flying should act like Breath Weapon, Enchanted, Impervious, or Mindless? (Any Shtick with a Range value is inherently a Battle Shtick, so the last sentence in those other abilities wouldn't be relevant.)

[Uthrac]

We ran into a problem, since we had only five players. We played without Elan. The rules do not state that we should remove loot that Elan drools over. Should we remove it, or keep it in the game and make it worthless until points are counted in the end? Generally, I would prefer to remove loot that Elan drools over, but how far should we go? Should we remove loot that ONLY Elan drools over, or loot that Elan as well as other PCs drool over?

I also felt that on the whole, Durkon was rather disadvantaged. The way I read Cure Assorted Wounds particularly bothered me. Opon boosting Cure Assorted Wounds once, Durkon heals for 2 points and takes one loot. This seems good, since people will be more likely to agree to let Durkon heal them in exchange for loot. However, a twice boosted Cure Assorted Wounds heals three points and provides Durkon with one loot. This seems to actually be a worse deal for Durkon, as healing for three points does not actually give Durkon much of an advantage. Was the amount of loot Durkon recieves meant to change or not?



(1) (a) Loot that ONLY Elan drools over can be offered to Elan . . . if he is on your floor (That is, if you are the player "deepest in the dungeon) . . . for a +2 attack/+2 defense per drool factor. (b) For loot that both Elan AND another player drool over, you effectively ignore the Elan factor, as if the faces were not on the card. (c) You only get points for loot that your character drools over, so at the end of the game they are still worthless.

(2) Depends on your Durkon strategy. :)
(a) When all three are unflipped, it's certainly in Durkon's favor to use it on himself. And although you MAY accept any loot, there's nothing wrong with "holding out" for a good loot offer . . . (i.e. I'll cure your 3 assorted wounds . . . what exactly are you offering?) [As Durkon, I feel it's okay to "insist" that the drool factor of the loot offered equal the number of wounds healed.]
(b) Although it may seem out of character, if players are being stingy with their loot-for-healing, there's nothing wrong with "teaming up" with Belkar to keep that healing in high demand. ;)

[Arcade]

Thanks for the reply, Gamer5389, but Krago's reply doesn't quite answer the question. The rulebook seems to contradict itself.

Page 15 says that picking up 2 loot for killing a monster is a bonus, and I can still pick up loot at the end of my turn.

Page 25 in the example says that Roy can't pick up loot at the end of his turn.

Which one is correct?


Look at page 24 under "How Much Loot Can Be Picked Up" and look at the second bullet. It specifically states you can't pick up loot in a room where you take the 2 loot bonus.

[bwcMD]

A question about Turn Undead...I haven't encountered this in a game yet, but if Durkon were to kill Xykon with Turn Undead, I'm assuming he'd also take out every other undead monster in the stack--potentially earning bucket-loads of XP to spend on schtiks. So do all of those monsters "die" at the same time Xykon does, or do they get the chance to flee?

[anarce]

Look at page 24 under "How Much Loot Can Be Picked Up" and look at the second bullet. It specifically states you can't pick up loot in a room where you take the 2 loot bonus.


Cool, that agrees with the example on page 25, so that makes it 2 against 1, page 15 loses. Thanks for pointing that one out.

My other questions have now fallen to the previous page of the thread, but I'd still like answers to them if anyone has them, like the 2-1-2-1 vs. 2-1-1-1 battle stack creation with 2 players. TIA!

[Vojoc]

Is the intent of Haley's Second-in-Command shtick the same as Roy's party leader veto in that its only meant to be used at the beginning of your turn?

[Fujin]

You seem to contradict yourself. Why do you consider the Horde ability (listed on page 31) to be valid for "I Forgot..." but not the Assist ability (listed on page 31)?

Because I somehow managed to miss that Assist was actually listed... I thought it was an intrensic value of the monsters :P

[Wanderlust]

A question about Turn Undead...I haven't encountered this in a game yet, but if Durkon were to kill Xykon with Turn Undead, I'm assuming he'd also take out every other undead monster in the stack--potentially earning bucket-loads of XP to spend on schtiks. So do all of those monsters "die" at the same time Xykon does, or do they get the chance to flee?

A: If you read the last line of Durkon's Turn Undead Shtick, it says you can't use it on Xykon.

Also, a question that seems very simple, but still is unclear to me.

Q: Can players equip loot (with their own drool factors, of course) that has no effect? Can Haley equip a Bag of Gold and have it count towards her loot to enter Xykon's Lair?

My gaming group has played so that only loot that has effects for certain players (Magic Daggers or Elveniest Boots Ever, for instance) were able to be equipped and count towards entering Xykon's lair.

Can someone clear that up for me?
Thanks

[Wanderlust]

Another question.

This one has been bouncing back and forth, and so far the answers have been references to former posts and I still don't have a black and white answer (if one exists at this time), so I'm gonna ask it straight up again, and if you know the correct answer, please help me (and the other people asking the same thing) with the answer.

Picking up loot:

I start my turn alone in a room with loot, and pick up one Loot. It's not a trap, so I keep it. I then move to an empty room and trigger a battle, killing a monster that drops 2 more Loot. Can I pick up these two loot because I killed the last monster in the room, or am I limited to picking up loot just once per turn?

Apologies for beating the dead horse, but this has a major effect on the way we play the game.

Thanks a lot!

[Arcade]

Picking up loot:

I start my turn alone in a room with loot, and pick up one Loot. It's not a trap, so I keep it. I then move to an empty room and trigger a battle, killing a monster that drops 2 more Loot. Can I pick up these two loot because I killed the last monster in the room, or am I limited to picking up loot just once per turn?

Apologies for beating the dead horse, but this has a major effect on the way we play the game.

Thanks a lot!

Look at my answer above. It is listed on page 24 under Picking Up Loot in the second bullet. Essentially, you can pick up the 2 loot.

[Vojoc]

With Fireball, its possible that boosting a fireball could actually _hurt_ Var, by making it too hard for Var to actually kill the monsters in the stack, for example if the best of the first two monsters in the stack had 10 defense, but the third monster had 15 defense, a boost might make it so that Var killed no monsters rather than two or three. A Get Angry! card played by another player might be used to this end. Because of this, should players be able to choose between using a fireball and between a garden variety fireball, or should boosts be forced?

Additionally, the list of what you may or may not do while fleeing the dungeon does not include a ruling on trading in loot for schticks. May you or may you not?

Similarly, may someone assist another player while they are fleeing the dungeon?

If several people are dead and at the dungeon enterance while Xykon is killed how does the BR for fleeing the dungeon work? Do they get 0 because they died? Do all the people who were there when Xykon died tie? Do they retroactively get points in the order they reached the top?

Also, can a player use Poorly Planned Illusion on Xykon's stack without using it on Xykon himself?

[Gamer5389]

A similar question as the previous poster, can you choose an area effect shtick but not use the area effect?
For example, using PPI against monster strong against Elan (mindless) like a normal shtick to get rid of them and then continue fighting since you didn't use the area effect.

A separate example like the fireball one above, if the first monster has a defence of 6 and the second 20, can you choose to just attack the first one?

[The Giant]

A lot of questions that need answers! I was supposed to run these past Kevin before posting them, but it's late and he's busy shipping games, so just be aware that one or two of these might get contradicted.


The rules (say you can start in a room, pick up one Loot, move, and fight in another room – and if you clear that room , you can pick up up to two more Loot. However, Haley’s “Come to Me, My Pretties” schtick says, “As always, you may pick Loot only once per turn.” Which is correct?

The rules are correct. The intent of that sentence was to make it clear that you couldn't pick up Loot from two different rooms just because the shtick allowed you to pick up two Loot per turn.


This is the way I interpreted it at first too, but when I was re-reading the rules I saw this on page 25 in the "Picking Up Loot" example box:

"Roy immediately picks up the top two, as his bonus for killing the last Monster. He cannot pick up a third, even though he did not pick up any Loot before moving."

Why not?? ???

Well...just because. I honestly can't remember what our logic for this was, but I know we specifically wanted you to be able to pick up no more than 2 Loot from monsters you killed. More than that, and there was less chance of players who were doing poorly to be able to "claim jump" and get a free Loot.


Thanks for the reply, Gamer5389, but Krago's reply doesn't quite answer the question. The rulebook seems to contradict itself.

Page 15 says that picking up 2 loot for killing a monster is a bonus, and I can still pick up loot at the end of my turn.

Page 25 in the example says that Roy can't pick up loot at the end of his turn.

Which one is correct?

Technically both, but the spirit you are looking for is page 25.

Basically, taking the two bonus Loot prohibits you from picking up any more Loot that turn, per the second bullet point on page 24 under "How Much Loot Can Be Picked Up". The text on page 15 doesn't specifically contradict this, it merely says that the two bonus Loot is in addition to any other Loot you would get--which in this case is zero, since if you take the bonus Loot, you get no other Loot. Yes, it's an awful wording choice on my part and would be much clearer if I just deleted the phrase, "or ending" from page 15, which I imagine would qualify as errata.


I start my turn alone in a room with loot, and pick up one Loot. It's not a trap, so I keep it. I then move to an empty room and trigger a battle, killing a monster that drops 2 more Loot. Can I pick up these two loot because I killed the last monster in the room, or am I limited to picking up loot just once per turn?

You may pick up two Loot in the room. You may not pick up a third Loot in that room (what would be a fourth Loot for the turn).

------------------------------


We ran into a problem, since we had only five players. We played without Elan. The rules do not state that we should remove loot that Elan drools over. Should we remove it, or keep it in the game and make it worthless until points are counted in the end? Generally, I would prefer to remove loot that Elan drools over, but how far should we go? Should we remove loot that ONLY Elan drools over, or loot that Elan as well as other PCs drool over?

No, you should NEVER remove Loot from the deck, regardless of who is playing or not. Remember that Elan is still an NPC in that game, hanging around the lowest dungeon level that any player is currently on, and you can offer NPCs the Loot that they drool over, as long as no other PC drools over it too. Elan-only Loot is far from worthless, as it is the only Loot that you could use to buy assistance in battle that won't go into the hands of one of your opponents!

------------------------------


The second rules question is a bit trickier. I guess I’ll explain the situation first:
I’m the first one down into Xykon’s lair, and have found him. Thanks to various supporting monsters already on this level, the Battle Size starts at 12…. and keeps getting bigger as we play more monsters. Pretty soon, Xykon’s stats are into the stratosphere, because of his Support: Assist ability. But then, on one of my Battle Deck redraws (I have to play monsters into this fight too, after all), I pull “Screw this! I Forgot They Could Do That” – and play it immediately to cancel Support: Assist and bring Xykon’s Attack value down to 16. We keep playing monsters – there end up being 49 in the stack. Since they’re not Supporting him, however, I manage to kill him. Without the ‘I Forgot…’, his Attack would have been over 50 – way out of my range.

Now, I’m wondering if that was entirely legal, even though the other players let me do it. The ‘I Forgot…’ card says “When any player (including you) is battling a Monster.” Since we were still busy populating the room, was I battling Xykon yet? If I’d had to wait until the monster stack was completed, I would have had to discard the ‘I Forgot’ card before I could have used it, in order to draw more Monster cards.


What you did is 100% legal, yes. You are battling the first Monster in the room the moment it is laid down.

More to the point, the following answer is wrong:


Technically, thats an illegal move, but not for the reason you suspect.

"I forgot they could do that" lets you ignore an ability the monster has. Abilities are things listed in the back of the rulebook, such as Flying, Bloodlust, Leader, or Invulnerable. Support is not an ability, its a characteristic of the monster, same as its attack rating.

However, what would have been a legal play would have been to play "I forgot..." on Xykon's Horde ability, which would have immediately reduced the battle size to 5, (4th lair + Leader). Any monster beyond the 5th would be discarded, and Xykon's Attack and Defense would have been quite manageable for you :).

This is incorrect, because you NEVER discard Monsters because the battle size is reduced. Battle Size is only checked while the battle is being triggered; once the Monsters are in the room, no change to the Battle Size can cause them to be discarded. You could, however, play IFTCDT to cancel Horde in the middle of people playing Monsters to keep the battle from growing even bigger.

However, it is correct that you can only cancel one of the Support Abilities, either Horde or Assist, not the entire Support concept. Once the Monsters are down and the Battle Size has been fulfilled, though, canceling Horde is essentially meaningless.

------------------------------


Another question: Is picking up Loot the only thing that you can't do BOTH at the beginning AND end of your turn? For example, could I equip Loot at the beginning of my turn, move, battle, collect loot, and then equip Loot again? Could I do the same thing with turning in monsters for shticks?

Yes, you can do all of those things twice except for 1.) pick up Loot from a room that did not have Monsters in it at all on your turn, and 2.) search for stairs.


Q: Can players equip loot (with their own drool factors, of course) that has no effect? Can Haley equip a Bag of Gold and have it count towards her loot to enter Xykon's Lair?

Can and should, yes.

------------------------------


edit: I thought of another one. With a 2-player game, the first player adds 2 monsters to the battle stack and then the second player adds one if the battle size is 3 or more. If it's more than 3, does it keep alternating 2-1-2-1-2-1... or does the first player only play 2 monsters the first time so the order is 2-1-1-1-1...?

I'd wait for Kevin's thought on this, but I've been playing 2-1-1-1-1...


I also felt that on the whole, Durkon was rather disadvantaged. The way I read Cure Assorted Wounds particularly bothered me. Opon boosting Cure Assorted Wounds once, Durkon heals for 2 points and takes one loot. This seems good, since people will be more likely to agree to let Durkon heal them in exchange for loot. However, a twice boosted Cure Assorted Wounds heals three points and provides Durkon with one loot. This seems to actually be a worse deal for Durkon, as healing for three points does not actually give Durkon much of an advantage. Was the amount of loot Durkon recieves meant to change or not?

The number of Loot paid does not change, no. Generally, the advantage of healing two or three wounds is 1.) increased benefit when you are healing yourself, and 2.) increased desire on the part of other players to be healed by you instead of resting/exiting the dungeon, and thus greater chance that they will spend a Loot on it.


A question about Turn Undead...I haven't encountered this in a game yet, but if Durkon were to kill Xykon with Turn Undead, I'm assuming he'd also take out every other undead monster in the stack--potentially earning bucket-loads of XP to spend on schtiks. So do all of those monsters "die" at the same time Xykon does, or do they get the chance to flee?

Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!


Is the intent of Haley's Second-in-Command shtick the same as Roy's party leader veto in that its only meant to be used at the beginning of your turn?

Yes.


With Fireball, its possible that boosting a fireball could actually _hurt_ Var, by making it too hard for Var to actually kill the monsters in the stack, for example if the best of the first two monsters in the stack had 10 defense, but the third monster had 15 defense, a boost might make it so that Var killed no monsters rather than two or three. A Get Angry! card played by another player might be used to this end. Because of this, should players be able to choose between using a fireball and between a garden variety fireball, or should boosts be forced?

Boosts are not voluntary. A Get Angry! card used in such a manner would be a clever and devious tactic that is 100% legal. Likewise, V could use a card to flip one of his/her own Fireball spells to "unboost" it.


Also, can a player use Poorly Planned Illusion on Xykon's stack without using it on Xykon himself?

No. You still need to contend with Xykon's Attack/Defense, you just don't get to move him if you succeed.


A similar question as the previous poster, can you choose an area effect shtick but not use the area effect?

No, Area Effect is mandatory. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see Vaarsuvius if he/she could turn off Fireball's AE!

------------------------------


Additionally, the list of what you may or may not do while fleeing the dungeon does not include a ruling on trading in loot for schticks. May you or may you not?

Similarly, may someone assist another player while they are fleeing the dungeon?

No, to both. You may not do anything while fleeing the dungeon other than what is required of you.


If several people are dead and at the dungeon enterance while Xykon is killed how does the BR for fleeing the dungeon work? Do they get 0 because they died? Do all the people who were there when Xykon died tie? Do they retroactively get points in the order they reached the top?

In this extremely unlikely event, the order of play would decide who was first. The first player to get their turn would essentially end it immediately and score as the first player out, then the second player to get their turn, and so on.

[Wanderlust]

Thanks for all the answers above!

A thing or two more to add/ponder:

The whole 2-1-2-1 vs 2-1-1-1 thing is answered on page 11 in the "Two-Player Game" sidebar.

It says "... whichever player isn't triggering the battle plays 2 cards the FIRST TIME their turn to play monsters comes up."

Also, Giant, in regards to using IDKTCDT to target the Horde ability, I think the Ape gamer had said somewhere else in the FAQ or on this board that if you removed the horde ability after monsters were down, the players that played the last monsters would retrieve their cards from the battle stack until the size is appropriate. Is there a particular spirit or ruling to this question you think we should play by?

Thanks again.

[Uthrac]

Great answers and thanks!

Q: If Elan defends against a player attack using Poorly Planned Illusion and wins . . . what happens? A draw? He can move the attacking player?

Thanks!

[BrighamJudd]

Okay here is one.

Belkar had a Loot which is three times drooled over by Elan. I knew this because he tried to use it to gain assistance from me with it. I refused it because of a couple of backstabbing events earlier. He steps into an empty room and triggers a new stack of monsters. He fails his Defense (ooo, its blue text) and is injured for the fourth time (A monster did it, I swear) and subsequently is forced to drop a random Loot and begin fleeing. He only had three Loot at the time so odds are not bad that this Loot is the one I want. He moves away immediately (this is another question, if he already moved shouldn’t he wait till his next turn to move again?).

On my (Elan’s) turn I step into the room and defeat the monsters. They drop three more Loot. Now, in which order do the Loot get dropped? Do the new Loot go on the bottom, like monster placement, or on top as the rule wording would imply. The rules also specifically state that you must take from the top Loot. Why is that? I suppose it is assumed you would not know what the Loot is so picking from the top is the easiest method. However, in this situation I know what one loot is (or might be), and at the very least I know that the one Belkar dropped is not a trap.

[Wanderlust]

(this is another question, if he already moved shouldn’t he wait till his next turn to move again?).

Now, in which order do the Loot get dropped?


At first we used to flee the dungeon imediately when you took your last wound, even if you had moved already that turn. I think somewhere in the examples it said you move right away. However, in one of the examples, it states that you would move 3 spaces towards the entrance at the start of your next turn. The way my group plays, you flee on the next turn after you hit your last wound.

As for loot, make sure you drop it in order. I can't remember if this is in the rules specifically, but it seems like so much stop refers to taking the top loot that it would matter.

I guess my answers don't really help, since they're not official. But this is the way we've been playing, and it's been a lot of fun so far.

[Wanderlust]

I also thought of a new one that came up the other day and was kind of tricky.

Q: If you use a ranged attack on another player (Haley's longbow or V's fireball, for instance), does the winner still take a piece of equipped loot from the loser, even if it's like 3 squares away?

The rules don't specify, but it seems wierd to take loot from someone three rooms away after hitting them with an arrow. We currently play so that the winner always takes one loot in a PvP battle, regardless of the range.

[Traveling_Angel]

Is it possible to get healed by Durkon while fleeing? If so, can Durkon heal himself?

[Marquoz]

I have a new (I think) rules question. My wife and I were playing tonight and couldn't figure out if magic schticks can be flipped on a turn that you rest. She's playing Durkon and wanted to Cure Assorted Wounds in addition to resting, but the section on resting doesn't mention whether non-combat schticks are flippable on resting turns.

Thanks for your help!

[The Giant]

Also, Giant, in regards to using IDKTCDT to target the Horde ability, I think the Ape gamer had said somewhere else in the FAQ or on this board that if you removed the horde ability after monsters were down, the players that played the last monsters would retrieve their cards from the battle stack until the size is appropriate. Is there a particular spirit or ruling to this question you think we should play by?

See, that's why I was supposed to wait to talk to him first. :P

Well, that's news to me. I don't really care for the idea of picking cards back up and putting them back into your hand. But it doesn't really matter either way, as long as your group picks a method and sticks with it. Chances are, Apegamer's answer is the right one that will get into the FAQ.


Q: If Elan defends against a player attack using Poorly Planned Illusion and wins . . . what happens? A draw? He can move the attacking player?

Poorly Planned Illusion specifies that it targets Monsters; it cannot be used against another player at all.


Belkar had a Loot which is three times drooled over by Elan. I knew this because he tried to use it to gain assistance from me with it. I refused it because of a couple of backstabbing events earlier. He steps into an empty room and triggers a new stack of monsters. He fails his Defense (ooo, its blue text) and is injured for the fourth time (A monster did it, I swear) and subsequently is forced to drop a random Loot and begin fleeing. He only had three Loot at the time so odds are not bad that this Loot is the one I want. He moves away immediately (this is another question, if he already moved shouldn’t he wait till his next turn to move again?).

On my (Elan’s) turn I step into the room and defeat the monsters. They drop three more Loot. Now, in which order do the Loot get dropped? Do the new Loot go on the bottom, like monster placement, or on top as the rule wording would imply. The rules also specifically state that you must take from the top Loot. Why is that? I suppose it is assumed you would not know what the Loot is so picking from the top is the easiest method. However, in this situation I know what one loot is (or might be), and at the very least I know that the one Belkar dropped is not a trap.

No, the new Loot goes on the top of the pile, exactly as the rules imply. Why? Because we specifically did NOT want players "counting cards" like that to draw a Loot card from the middle or bottom of a stack. We had to pick one way to do it, and that was it. And it's easier to draw off the top than the bottom, by a lot.


Q: If you use a ranged attack on another player (Haley's longbow or V's fireball, for instance), does the winner still take a piece of equipped loot from the loser, even if it's like 3 squares away?

Yup, Range has no effect. Whoops, turns out page 25 clearly spells out that you must be at Range 0 to steal Loot from another player. My mistake.


Is it possible to get healed by Durkon while fleeing? If so, can Durkon heal himself?

Page 19 states that you "cannot be healed until you exit the dungeon". That includes Durkon's shticks.

[seoman]

V uses Blackwing to retrieve a loot from range. That loot is a trap. Is the trap triggered in the room the loot was in (I think he's requesting morphine), or V's room (What is he carrying... Expeditious Retreat!)?

[Wanderlust]

V uses Blackwing to retrieve a loot from range. That loot is a trap. Is the trap triggered in the room the loot was in (I think he's requesting morphine), or V's room (What is he carrying... Expeditious Retreat!)?

We came accross this same situation. Not sure what the answer is, but we had the trap trigger on V as if blackwing brought the loot back to his room.

Another question regarding V's fireball:

If you fireball into a room with one monster and another player, you have to target the player, right? Our confusion was that if so, it seems like you're having a player vs monster and player vs player battle at the same time. Is this okay?

[Fujin]

Another question regarding V's fireball:

If you fireball into a room with one monster and another player, you have to target the player, right? Our confusion was that if so, it seems like you're having a player vs monster and player vs player battle at the same time. Is this okay?

Like Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion, V's Fireball specifies that it targets monsters, so you can't hit a player with it. :(

[The Giant]

V uses Blackwing to retrieve a loot from range. That loot is a trap. Is the trap triggered in the room the loot was in (I think he's requesting morphine), or V's room (What is he carrying... Expeditious Retreat!)?

The trap triggers in the room in which it is revealed, as normal. If V and all other players are outside of the trap's Range, then it has no effect.


If you fireball into a room with one monster and another player, you have to target the player, right? Our confusion was that if so, it seems like you're having a player vs monster and player vs player battle at the same time. Is this okay?

The first bullet point under "Area Effect Shticks" on page 18 states that they may not be used in player vs. player battles. This is reinforced on the card by stating that it targets Monsters. If you fireball into a room with players and monsters, you are always attacking the Monsters. The players are unaffected.

[Wanderlust]

Like Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion, V's Fireball specifies that it targets monsters, so you can't hit a player with it. :(

Aha, that explains it. Thank you.

[Marquoz]

Dang it, Giant, you've missed my question twice now :). I'll repeat it here for your convenience:

I have a new (I think) rules question. My wife and I were playing tonight and couldn't figure out if magic schticks can be flipped on a turn that you rest. She's playing Durkon and wanted to Cure Assorted Wounds in addition to resting, but the section on resting doesn't mention whether non-combat schticks are flippable on resting turns.

Thanks for your help!

[Wanderlust]

Q: If you use a ranged attack on another player (Haley's longbow or V's fireball, for instance), does the winner still take a piece of equipped loot from the loser, even if it's like 3 squares away?

The rules don't specify, but it seems wierd to take loot from someone three rooms away after hitting them with an arrow. We currently play so that the winner always takes one loot in a PvP battle, regardless of the range.

After reading through the rules again, it says under the Loot section that you may steal an equipped loot from a player after beating them in battle if at range = 0. I swear I'm not trying to contradict anyone's answers (Giant) regarding rules questions, as it still seems it could go both ways. However, in that particular paragraph it specifically states only if Range = 0, where as in the Player Vs. Player section of the rules it only says take one loot from the losing player, not specifying range at all.

Sorry to be picky, I just want to make sure we're playing with your original intentions in mind. Still loving the game.

[Fujin]

Dang it, Giant, you've missed my question twice now :). I'll repeat it here for your convenience:

I have a new (I think) rules question. My wife and I were playing tonight and couldn't figure out if magic schticks can be flipped on a turn that you rest. She's playing Durkon and wanted to Cure Assorted Wounds in addition to resting, but the section on resting doesn't mention whether non-combat schticks are flippable on resting turns.

Thanks for your help!

I don't think there is a rule on this, but this is the house rule my group uses:

You may flip a schtick before you rest, including the turn you rest, but not during the turn while you are resting. The intent of resting is that you are asleep, and thus cannot take any actions. However, since flipping a schtick does not take an action of your turn, you are allowed to do it before resting.

[The Giant]

(Ignore this, a glitch is making certain posts at the top of new pages disappear...)

[The Giant]

I have a new (I think) rules question. My wife and I were playing tonight and couldn't figure out if magic schticks can be flipped on a turn that you rest. She's playing Durkon and wanted to Cure Assorted Wounds in addition to resting, but the section on resting doesn't mention whether non-combat schticks are flippable on resting turns.

You can flip non-Battle shticks at any time, unless the shtick itself has a limit printed on it. Thus, Durkon can flip Cure Assorted Wounds while resting.


After reading through the rules again, it says under the Loot section that you may steal an equipped loot from a player after beating them in battle if at range = 0. I swear I'm not trying to contradict anyone's answers (Giant) regarding rules questions, as it still seems it could go both ways. However, in that particular paragraph it specifically states only if Range = 0, where as in the Player Vs. Player section of the rules it only says take one loot from the losing player, not specifying range at all.

Damn it. You know, I actually thought that WAS the rule, and then I looked up the secion in the rulebook and thought we had left it out. Then yeah, if it made it into the rulebook, then it should only be at Range 0. I'll change my answer above.

[Kumquat]

here are two questions that came up that we wanted to make sure about.

One: can Haley or Roy use the Party Leader Veto to force someone to use a shtick (this came up when Haley wanted to force Elan to do some wacky hijinks, as opposed to just flipping it so he could not use it) or can you only flip a shtick so the person can't use it?

two: For Elan's bard songs, does the person get one bonus overall for the roll, or, is the bard song bonus for each individual loot card given to Elan, or is it the unlikely situation of the bard song bonus is given for each drool factor?

For example, Belkar offers Elan 2 loot, one with a drool factor of one, and one with a drool factor of 2 (The Sorcerer's Fruit Pie with one Elan Icon and the book of Dwarven Sea Chanties with 2 Elan icons for example) while Elan has 3 bard songs out, does belkar get a +9 (+6 for the drooling, and +3 for the bard song) a +12 (plus 5 for the pie, and plus 7 for the chanties) or a huge +15 (+5 for each drool icon)?

Those were the only things we could question so far.
Also, thank you for the game as it is quite fun, and we have enjoyed playing it.

[Valanthe]

First off, love the Adventure game. Played it at GenCon, and then pre-ordered it as soon as I had my laptop in my hands. I was pleased as punch when I got it, and my local group played it as soon as we were able.

As could be expected, a couple of questions came up. The first is about Haley's "Swipe" Schtick. If you use this Schtick on a monster, and successfully swipe a loot from underneath it, can you continue to attack/defend as if you had actually killed the monster?

Secondly, in a less-than-six-player game, say you're in the following situation: You're Roy, and you're on the third level. The other players are on levels one or two (ergo, the NPC PCs are on the same level as Roy). How should the "you can't give loot drooled over a player to an NPC PC" rule be handled in this situation? We played it that it went to the NPC PC, as there was no way to give it to a player (what with them being on a different level, and all).

Thanks for answering questions, and for creating such a great game! :)

[Fujin]

here are two questions that came up that we wanted to make sure about.

One: can Haley or Roy use the Party Leader Veto to force someone to use a shtick (this came up when Haley wanted to force Elan to do some wacky hijinks, as opposed to just flipping it so he could not use it) or can you only flip a shtick so the person can't use it?

You can't force them to use it, but my group does allow you to ask them to use it with a party leader veto :P. If they refuse, the schtick flips with no effect.


two: For Elan's bard songs, does the person get one bonus overall for the roll, or, is the bard song bonus for each individual loot card given to Elan, or is it the unlikely situation of the bard song bonus is given for each drool factor?

It is per combat, Elan can't "sing harder" for more loot (heck, you'd have to bribe Elan NOT to sing as loudly, not the other way around!)


As could be expected, a couple of questions came up. The first is about Haley's "Swipe" Schtick. If you use this Schtick on a monster, and successfully swipe a loot from underneath it, can you continue to attack/defend as if you had actually killed the monster?

No idea on this one... we haven't had anyone play Haley yet, good question though!


Secondly, in a less-than-six-player game, say you're in the following situation: You're Roy, and you're on the third level. The other players are on levels one or two (ergo, the NPC PCs are on the same level as Roy). How should the "you can't give loot drooled over a player to an NPC PC" rule be handled in this situation? We played it that it went to the NPC PC, as there was no way to give it to a player (what with them being on a different level, and all).

Thats not how we did it. The PC-NPC rule applies regardless of where the characters are. If you can't give something to Durkon because Belkar is a player, the fact that Belkar is on another level doesn't matter.

The intention of this rule is to make it harder to remove loot from the game (by giving it to NPCs), if you have to wait for Belkar to come down, you have to wait :).

Thanks for answering questions, and for creating such a great game! :)[/quote]

[CherryTree]

This thread has been super-informative. Here's a question that's come up for us in playing that we haven't fully resolved yet...

when you are playing monsters, and you play your *last* monster, but still have "screw this!" cards in your hand, do you discard those cards immediately & draw a new battle deck b/c you have no more monsters, or do you wait until you are called upon to play a monster and then draw new cards?

CT

[Wanderlust]

This thread has been super-informative. Here's a question that's come up for us in playing that we haven't fully resolved yet...

when you are playing monsters, and you play your *last* monster, but still have "screw this!" cards in your hand, do you discard those cards immediately & draw a new battle deck b/c you have no more monsters, or do you wait until you are called upon to play a monster and then draw new cards?

CT


You wait until you are called up to play a monster. You can stay with only Screw This cards or even no hand for quite a while sometimes, if your opponent isn't moving into empty rooms. I've come to play my Screw This cards at any opportunity I can, even if it's not the perfect moment for it. Better play it than discard it, I say.

[caestepp]

...when you are playing monsters, and you play your *last* monster, but still have "screw this!" cards in your hand, do you discard those cards immediately & draw a new battle deck b/c you have no more monsters, or do you wait until you are called upon to play a monster and then draw new cards?

You should always wait until you are called upon to play a monster card before discarding any unused Screw This! cards and drawing a new battle hand.

All of the details of managing your Battle Hand can be found on page 11 of the Full Rulebook. Look in the section called "Playing Monsters" and also in the section with the black background right above it called "Your Battle Hand".

[CherryTree]

Ooh, thanks-- most helpful w/ the page references. I felt like I'd flipped through the rule book a thousand times already in trying to play and somehow the playing monsters/battle hand procedures never sunk in. Thanks for the quick replies!

CT

[caestepp]

As could be expected, a couple of questions came up. The first is about Haley's "Swipe" Schtick. If you use this Schtick on a monster, and successfully swipe a loot from underneath it, can you continue to attack/defend as if you had actually killed the monster?

Swipe was intended to provide Haley with a thematically appropriate alternative to direct combat. Since Swipe doesn't actually defeat the monster (ie. remove it from the encounter), Haley cannot continue on to attack/defend the next monster in the stack.



Secondly, in a less-than-six-player game, say you're in the following situation: You're Roy, and you're on the third level. The other players are on levels one or two (ergo, the NPC PCs are on the same level as Roy). How should the "you can't give loot drooled over a player to an NPC PC" rule be handled in this situation? We played it that it went to the NPC PC, as there was no way to give it to a player (what with them being on a different level, and all).

This is covered in the section "NPC Players" on page 13 in the Full Rulebook. You cannot offer loot to NPCs for assistance in battle if the loot has any of the PCs faces on it. It doesn't matter if the PC whose face is on the loot is currently on a different level of the dungeon. Because loot plays such an essential role to the victory condition and other parts of the gameplay, the rules were designed to prevent players from discarding the other player's loot faces by giving loot to NPCs.

[Gamer5389]

Was there an offical answer to the question of flee movement if you receive the final wound on your turn after you have moved?

[Amnistar]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but I'm asking anyway, just in case:

If you empty your hand completely by playing a monster or screw this card, do you wait till you're called upon to play a monster before you draw again?

Other questions

I still have to wonder about Haley's swipe ability. You see, the rules read: "If you won the battle and there are additional monsters in the same room, you may choose to battle the next Monster in the Battle Stack" It seems to me that any even in which you don't draw is considered a win, ergo Haley can steal multiple times...as long as there is loot. In fact, Haley could, feasably, attack and kill the top monster, swipe it's treasure, then kill the next one, swiping its treasure, etc.


Another question: May you make a ranged attack into a room with both monsters in players and attack the player? And, if you kill all the monsters may you continue and attack the player?

Thanks bunches

[Fujin]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but I'm asking anyway, just in case:

If you empty your hand completely by playing a monster or screw this card, do you wait till you're called upon to play a monster before you draw again?

You never draw a new hand unless you are required to play a monster and can't.


Other questions

I still have to wonder about Haley's swipe ability. You see, the rules read: "If you won the battle and there are additional monsters in the same room, you may choose to battle the next Monster in the Battle Stack" It seems to me that any even in which you don't draw is considered a win, ergo Haley can steal multiple times...as long as there is loot. In fact, Haley could, feasably, attack and kill the top monster, swipe it's treasure, then kill the next one, swiping its treasure, etc.

This was answered two posts above yours :P

"Swipe was intended to provide Haley with a thematically appropriate alternative to direct combat. Since Swipe doesn't actually defeat the monster (ie. remove it from the encounter), Haley cannot continue on to attack/defend the next monster in the stack."


Another question: May you make a ranged attack into a room with both monsters in players and attack the player? And, if you kill all the monsters may you continue and attack the player?

Thanks bunches

You can never make more than one ranged attack per turn, the only time you can continue fighting after an attack is if you are in the same room as the monsters. And no, you can either attack a player or attack the monsters, not both.

[Amnistar]

*blinks at himself* Woah amni....stupid question at the end there :p.

As for Haley's swipe ability, I am then curious if a successful swipe attempt from haley against a player results in 2 loot being stolen? 1 for the swipe ability, and 1 for winning the fight?

[caestepp]

*blinks at himself* Woah amni....stupid question at the end there :p.

As for Haley's swipe ability, I am then curious if a successful swipe attempt from haley against a player results in 2 loot being stolen? 1 for the swipe ability, and 1 for winning the fight?
Swipe is a battle shtick and therefore qualifies for the benefits associated with PvP combat. Therefore you would get 2 loots (1 for the successful Swipe, and 1 for the PvP victory). This post was initially incorrect and was modified thanks to feedback from Fujin.

[Fujin]

Ignore this. A glitch is causing certain posts at the top of new pages to disappear.

[Fujin]

Since Swipe is considered an alternative to combat, Haley would only get one loot (as described in the result text for the Swipe shtick). Swipe does not grant any of the other benefits associated with engaging in combat versus either Monsters or Players.

I disagree with this answer.

Nothing on the Swipe Schtick indicates that it is an "alternative to combat" schtick. It is a combat schtick, except its result text reads something other than "Foe takes 1 wound."

As such, I believe that Amnistar is correct in assuming that he would get 2 loot when using Swipe, since 1 loot would come from Swipe (rather than from loosing a wound as with most attack schticks), and then the additional loot which is part of any successful attack against another player.

My interpretation of the rules seems to be supported by page 17 of the rulebook, which states:

"The winning player applies the Result Text of their chosen Battle Shtick to the loser. For many Battle Shticks, this will result in 1 wound being applied to the other player. Another might cause the losing player to miss a turn or allow the winning player to draw a random Loot from the losing player's Loot Stash.

In addition, the winning player may take one equipped Loot from the losing player, of the winner's choice. This Loot is added..."

This exerpt seems to refer to this exact situation, and confirms that, indeed, two loot would be drawn. :)

[Traveling_Angel]

The rules state that now Xyclon deck cards have red X's, but mine do. Should I save them?

[Fujin]

The rules state that now Xyclon deck cards have red X's, but mine do. Should I save them?

Save them. That is a rule that was probably meant not to make the rules, seeing as the cards -were- printed with X's. Not to mention having cards with X's on them that -aren't- worth experience is counter-intuitive.

[caestepp]

I disagree with this answer.

Nothing on the Swipe Schtick indicates that it is an "alternative to combat" schtick. It is a combat schtick, except its result text reads something other than "Foe takes 1 wound."

As such, I believe that Amnistar is correct in assuming that he would get 2 loot when using Swipe, since 1 loot would come from Swipe (rather than from loosing a wound as with most attack schticks), and then the additional loot which is part of any successful attack against another player.

My interpretation of the rules seems to be supported by page 17 of the rulebook, which states:

"The winning player applies the Result Text of their chosen Battle Shtick to the loser. For many Battle Shticks, this will result in 1 wound being applied to the other player. Another might cause the losing player to miss a turn or allow the winning player to draw a random Loot from the losing player's Loot Stash.

In addition, the winning player may take one equipped Loot from the losing player, of the winner's choice. This Loot is added..."

This exerpt seems to refer to this exact situation, and confirms that, indeed, two loot would be drawn. :)
I agree with Fujin's interpretation and will modify my previous post. When I posted on this topic earlier, I was still thinking of the context where this shtick is used on monsters. I should have re-read the PVP-rules on page 17 before posting. Swipe is indeed a battle shtick and would be entitled to the benefits of winning a PVP battle.

Kudos to Fujin for catching this.

[Traveling_Angel]

I assume that multiple schticks like bard song and great cleavage don't all apply, so that 2 bard songs wouldn't grant a +4 bonus. Correct?

[apegamer]

I assume that multiple schticks like bard song and great cleavage don't all apply, so that 2 bard songs wouldn't grant a +4 bonus. Correct?

Multilple shticks provide the boost effect listed at the bottom of the shtick card. So a second Bard Song would provide an additional +1 bonus.

[Valor]

I tried searching, but it seems that nothing comes up at all (even when I search for words I see that have been posted).

Lets say we are on level 1. When Redcloak is placed into battle.

Redcloak is a Leader (Battle size +1) and when supported by Goblin's has the Horde (Battle size +1 per supporting card). So, if we start with Redcloak and the additional monster I play is a Goblin, would that further expand the battle size to 3?

[Jefepato]

Am I correct in thinking that the Outsmart example on page 31 is incorrect? Elan's Dumb As Mud shtick should make him immune to Nale's Outsmart.

[bwcMD]

I tried searching, but it seems that nothing comes up at all (even when I search for words I see that have been posted).

Lets say we are on level 1. When Redcloak is placed into battle.

Redcloak is a Leader (Battle size +1) and when supported by Goblin's has the Horde (Battle size +1 per supporting card). So, if we start with Redcloak and the additional monster I play is a Goblin, would that further expand the battle size to 3?

Correct. And if the 3rd card is a Goblin, the battle sizegrows once more. And recall that supporting cards are everything on the same floor that supports, not just what's in the room.

[Valor]

Poorly Planned Illusion

When you move monsters to an adjacent room with more than one player in the room - when does the monster attack and who does the monster attack first?

[The Giant]

One: can Haley or Roy use the Party Leader Veto to force someone to use a shtick (this came up when Haley wanted to force Elan to do some wacky hijinks, as opposed to just flipping it so he could not use it) or can you only flip a shtick so the person can't use it?

No, these shticks flip the card with no effect, denying their owner the usage of the card until they rest.


two: For Elan's bard songs, does the person get one bonus overall for the roll, or, is the bard song bonus for each individual loot card given to Elan, or is it the unlikely situation of the bard song bonus is given for each drool factor?

One bonus overall per battle roll, not one per loot card given.


The first is about Haley's "Swipe" Schtick. If you use this Schtick on a monster, and successfully swipe a loot from underneath it, can you continue to attack/defend as if you had actually killed the monster?

No. You may have won the battle, but the Monster is STILL the top Monster on the stack. The rules only allow you to battle the top Monster, requiring you to remove the previous Monster before you can battle the next one (which then becomes the new top Monster). Since Swipe doesn't move the top Monster, you can't get to the lower Monsters, and you can't battle the same Monster twice.

You can, however, defeat the top Monster with, say, Longbow, discard it, and then Swipe the second Monster.


Secondly, in a less-than-six-player game, say you're in the following situation: You're Roy, and you're on the third level. The other players are on levels one or two (ergo, the NPC PCs are on the same level as Roy). How should the "you can't give loot drooled over a player to an NPC PC" rule be handled in this situation? We played it that it went to the NPC PC, as there was no way to give it to a player (what with them being on a different level, and all).

No, that is incorrect. The rule stands no matter where the players are in relation to one another.

The purpose of the rule is not to get players to offer Loot to the PCs per se, but to prevent Player A from offering all of Player B's Loot to the NPCs, causing it to be put in the Loot discard pile and removed from play, possibly for the rest of the game if the Loot pile isn't reshuffled.


when you are playing monsters, and you play your *last* monster, but still have "screw this!" cards in your hand, do you discard those cards immediately & draw a new battle deck b/c you have no more monsters, or do you wait until you are called upon to play a monster and then draw new cards?

You wait until you are called on to play a Monster and can't. If you can play the Screw This! before then, you may.


Another question: May you make a ranged attack into a room with both monsters in players and attack the player?

Definitely.


And, if you kill all the monsters may you continue and attack the player?

With a Ranged Attack, you may never continue to battle Monsters. You may only make one Ranged Attack on your turn, and only against either a player or the top Monster in a room.

If you were in the same room, you would be required to fight the top Monster only. You can't battle a player on the same turn that you battle Monsters.


The rules state that now Xyclon deck cards have red X's, but mine do. Should I save them?

This is an error in the rules; you should be able to save them.


I assume that multiple schticks like bard song and great cleavage don't all apply, so that 2 bard songs wouldn't grant a +4 bonus. Correct?

Yes, but multiple shticks DO provide the bonus listed on that shtick under "Boost".


Lets say we are on level 1. When Redcloak is placed into battle.

Redcloak is a Leader (Battle size +1) and when supported by Goblin's has the Horde (Battle size +1 per supporting card). So, if we start with Redcloak and the additional monster I play is a Goblin, would that further expand the battle size to 3?

Yup.


Poorly-Planned Illusion

When you move monsters to an adjacent room with more than one player in the room - when does the monster attack and who does the monster attack first?

Monsters moved by Poorly-Planned Illusion do not attack any players in the room to which they move.

[The Giant]

As for Haley's swipe ability, I am then curious if a successful swipe attempt from haley against a player results in 2 loot being stolen? 1 for the swipe ability, and 1 for winning the fight?

Yes, Haley gets two Loot. Note, however, that only ONE Loot may be selected from the player's equipped Loot (the one gained as a result of winning PvP); the other Loot must be drawn at random from the player's Loot Stash.

[Arcade]

Could we get a ruling on the "fleeing" rule? Specifically, when you are dropped down to 0 wounds, are you supposed to drop an item and flee immediately (as the rule states), or wait until your next turn and then drop an item and flee (as the example states)? And if it's as the example states and you lose a PvP battle on your turn, are you supposed to flee now since it is your turn or do you wait until your next turn?

I looked through here and couldn't find an answer, but if it has been answered, please let me know and give me a pointer.

Thanks

[ref]

Player A on left dead-end of a full 8-room first level finds the stairs down, Then some players move down there and to the left. At this point, player C on the right edge of the first level uses a screw this card to find another set of stairs. Some players move down and to the right. Is this legal? If so, what is the range between the two halves of the second level? Can attacks be made through the "void" and does support work from one side to another? Additionally, if a set of stairs down to the third level is found on one of the halves, does the other one become a dead-end branch with no way down?

[TheTormented]

Q) Can you give more than one loot per battle?
A) Yes, you can give more than one loot to other players in return for assistance with a battle. You can give multiple loot to the same person or you can give one or more loot to each of several different players.

The only limitation is that in PvP battles, an assisting player can only help one of the two players in the battle. You can't assist both sides.

Assistance is only good for a single battle (ie. a single die roll). If you decide to attack the next monster in the stack you have to offer new loot in order to gain assistance.

The way the above is stated it would make me think if you had the appropriate loot you could get a massivly high bonus being able to give multiple loot to the same and/or other people. Is this the case or is there a limitation to the bonus you can get from offering loot? (Sorry if this is in the rules, I can't remember and the game belongs to a friend I don't see often.)

[apegamer]

The way the above is stated it would make me think if you had the appropriate loot you could get a massivly high bonus being able to give multiple loot to the same and/or other people. Is this the case or is there a limitation to the bonus you can get from offering loot?

If you have enough loot and choose to blow it all on one battle, then you're free to do so. You can give as many cards as you want to players. You can even give multiple cards to the same player.

However, you need to think about how much loot you're going to get back, how much XP you'll be getting, and how much you want to help other players. It's all a balancing act, really.

[The Giant]

Player A on left dead-end of a full 8-room first level finds the stairs down, Then some players move down there and to the left. At this point, player C on the right edge of the first level uses a screw this card to find another set of stairs. Some players move down and to the right. Is this legal?

Yes. Remember that there can only be 8 rooms per level, though, so it is probable that these two sub-levels will not meet in the middle, ever. On the other hand, if someone explores the middle area and there is a small enough gap, they WILL meet.


If so, what is the range between the two halves of the second level?

The range is "Not Applicable", because you cannot measure range through unexplored areas.


Can attacks be made through the "void" and does support work from one side to another?

Attacks cannot be made, but Support (and assisting in battle) both function normally.


Additionally, if a set of stairs down to the third level is found on one of the halves, does the other one become a dead-end branch with no way down?

Yes, barring another special situation.

[Ske]

A few things (7).

- The stuff you can do at the start and end of your turn, can they all be done both start and end of your turn, multiple times each? This, of course, excludes loot picking and stairs searching.

- If you fight without a Shtick against a creature with Bloodlust, will you then _always_ lose?

- If you drop down to no health and start fleeing, but is forced to miss your next turn (for example, if the fight was in the restroom), What is the procedure? My guess is, that you drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn, drop a loot, end turn, [drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn] (repeat stuff in brackets until at dungeon entrance).

- If you're in a room full of loot, can you then get 2 loot in any other way than resting (not counting shtick's like Haley's and such)? I mean, if you don't want to suffer the defense loss when resting, but still wants to miss a turn while getting two loot?

- Unique monsters.. I'm confused. I hear Redcloak is a multiple, but is he the only one (I don't want to check the stack, I want to be surprised at the things I find)? Specifically, is the rule about unique monsters leaving if they appear somewhere else very rarely used? Or is the sentence about it on page 5 actually supposed to apply to all monsters with the same name, so no two equal monsters can exist at once (yes, the sentence can be read like that)?

- Poorly planned illusion. When you move a monster into a full room (of monsters), is the moved monster(s) placed at the bottom or top?

- The Giant posted that used Turn Undead in a battle with Xykon was a good idea, even though it didn't hurt him, as it could remove all other undead and thereby weakening Xykon. In the sidebar on page 18 though, it is stated that even though monsters can't be hurt by an area attack, they still count when determining the greatest defense modifier to fight against. Was the (not so) flawless Giant wrong?

I guess that's it. I appreciate any answers, though knowing my friends, only the authorities will be listened to.

[Jacob]

Is there going to be a ruling on the fleeing rule? It seems like just about every other question gets answered, but for some reason this one hasn't been. Does your character flee immediately upon losing his/her last hit point whether it's your turn or not, flee immediately only on your turn, or always wait 'til your next turn, or what? Please respond to this even if it's just to say that it has not been decided. Thanks.

[Gamer5389]

"You're right. If Durkon uses Big Heavy Armor against a monster with Bloodlust, and wins, then the result of the shtick (which says that the battle is a draw) means that he actually loses.

In short, don't use shticks that say the battle is a draw against monsters with Bloodlust." - apegamer

There doesn't seem to be any reason that the same shouldn't apply to battling without a shtick since the outcome is the same as one with a draw result.

For the unique rule, I believe that Redcloak is the only multiple unique card. I'd guess that the rule only applies to unique monsters since it would be ok for there to be multiple Kobold Knights in a dungeon but not multiple Nales.

[The Giant]

- The stuff you can do at the start and end of your turn, can they all be done both start and end of your turn, multiple times each? This, of course, excludes loot picking and stairs searching.

Yes, excluding Loot-picking-up and stair-searching, you can do any of the others as often as you wish. Meaning you can trade in Monsters for shticks at the start of your turn, then kill three Monsters, then turn in another three at the end.


- If you fight without a Shtick against a creature with Bloodlust, will you then _always_ lose?

Yup. Sucks, eh?


- If you drop down to no health and start fleeing, but is forced to miss your next turn (for example, if the fight was in the restroom), What is the procedure? My guess is, that you drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn, drop a loot, end turn, [drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn] (repeat stuff in brackets until at dungeon entrance).

Well, the issue here isn't the missing-a-turn-while fleeing, it's the use of the Restroom. According to the rules on "Missing a Turn", when something causes you to miss a turn, you put your character on its side IMMEDIATELY. That means that when you reveal the restroom, you don't fight any Monsters in it. And only the first character to reveal the restroom misses a turn. So really, the situation you are describing cannot occur. EDIT: Whoops! Turned out I didn't know what I was talking about there, just ignore that paragraph.

Now, if you miss a turn because the Monster has Paralyze, then you are basically frozen in place. You drop the Loot, put your character on its side, and end your turn. On the next turn, you stand your character up, drop a Loot, and end your turn. On the third turn, you drop a Loot and move 3 spaces. You never move 3 spaces on a turn in which your character begins or ends on its side.


- If you're in a room full of loot, can you then get 2 loot in any other way than resting (not counting shtick's like Haley's and such)? I mean, if you don't want to suffer the defense loss when resting, but still wants to miss a turn while getting two loot?

Nope. You need to take the risk in order to grab two.


- Unique monsters.. I'm confused. I hear Redcloak is a multiple, but is he the only one (I don't want to check the stack, I want to be surprised at the things I find)? Specifically, is the rule about unique monsters leaving if they appear somewhere else very rarely used? Or is the sentence about it on page 5 actually supposed to apply to all monsters with the same name, so no two equal monsters can exist at once (yes, the sentence can be read like that)?

It is a rarely used rule. We have plans for expanding the game, which may include alternate versions of key characters like Nale, Thog, etc. Right now, Redcloak is the only Unique monster to actually have two versions.


- Poorly planned illusion. When you move a monster into a full room (of monsters), is the moved monster(s) placed at the bottom or top?

Top.


- The Giant posted that used Turn Undead in a battle with Xykon was a good idea, even though it didn't hurt him, as it could remove all other undead and thereby weakening Xykon. In the sidebar on page 18 though, it is stated that even though monsters can't be hurt by an area attack, they still count when determining the greatest defense modifier to fight against. Was the (not so) flawless Giant wrong?

No, but it's a subtle distinction. The rule says that if the Monster is targeted and has an ability that would normally exampt it from being battled with as shtick, such as Enchanted, it still counts for determining the highest Defense Value.

But Xykon does NOT have an ability that exempts him; it's the Turn Undead shtick that does the exempting when it stipulates its available targets. Thus, you can use it against any Undead under Xykon without counting his Defense Value.

In the same way, you don't count the Defense values of non-Undead when using Turn Undead, because they cannot ever be targets of that shtick. Only those Monsters that COULD be targets, but are not because of a MONSTER ability are still counted for Defense value. An Enchanted Undead, for example, would still count for highest Defense Value; a Goblin, Enchanted or otherwise, would not.


Is there going to be a ruling on the fleeing rule? It seems like just about every other question gets answered, but for some reason this one hasn't been. Does your character flee immediately upon losing his/her last hit point whether it's your turn or not, flee immediately only on your turn, or always wait 'til your next turn, or what? Please respond to this even if it's just to say that it has not been decided. Thanks.

OK, I thought this had been answered by apeagamer, so I'll look at it now.

The rules are 100% correct; the Example is slightly backwards.

To elaborate: You should drop the Loot and then flee on each turn, including the turn in which you lose your last Wound. The example correctly has Elan drop Loot immediately, but fails to have him flee. After that, it incorrectly puts the fleeing before the dropping. The intent was to have the player drop his first Loot under the Monster that beat him, so that the Monster would have to be killed in order to recover it. Both the and the example rules reflect this, but the Example then screws up the order after that.

As a rule of thumb during play, assume the rules trump the examples unless we've FAQ/errata'd something. Feel free to keep asking, though, since its the only way we'll see mistakes.

[Ske]

Thank you for the answers, Giant, though I would like some clarification on one of them (as I disagree).


- If you drop down to no health and start fleeing, but is forced to miss your next turn (for example, if the fight was in the restroom), What is the procedure? My guess is, that you drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn, drop a loot, end turn, [drop a loot, flee three rooms, end turn] (repeat stuff in brackets until at dungeon entrance).


Well, the issue here isn't the missing-a-turn-while fleeing, it's the use of the Restroom. According to the rules on "Missing a Turn", when something causes you to miss a turn, you put your character on its side IMMEDIATELY. That means that when you reveal the restroom, you don't fight any Monsters in it. And only the first character to reveal the restroom misses a turn. So really, the situation you are describing cannot occur.

Now, if you miss a turn because the Monster has Paralyze, then you are basically frozen in place. You drop the Loot, put your character on its side, and end your turn. On the next turn, you stand your character up, drop a Loot, and end your turn. On the third turn, you drop a Loot and move 3 spaces. You never move 3 spaces on a turn in which your character begins or ends on its side.

The restroom doesn't work like that. It causes you to miss a turn _after_ fighting monsters (Quote: "The first player to enter this room loses a turn - after battling any Monsters."), which is what makes it somewhat confusing. Based on your answer, I'd say it would go like this:
1 - Enter restroom, fight-lose-die, drop loot, lay character on the side.
2 - Drop loot, stand character.
3 - Drop loot (third in the same room now), move three rooms.
4 - Drop loot, move three rooms.
5 - Repeat 4 until arriving at dungeon entrance.

Your answer raises another question though. After resting, do you miss the turn in which you unflip shticks as well? Is this right:
1 - Player choses to rest before doing anything else, lays character down.
2 - Unflips shticks, heals a wound and stands character up.
3 - Player can now do whatever.
Or in a different wording, does resting cause you to do nothing else (moving or battling) for two turns? The rules aren't very clear on whether or not your turn ends after unflipping shticks.

Thanks in advance.

[The Giant]

The restroom doesn't work like that. It causes you to miss a turn _after_ fighting monsters (Quote: "The first player to enter this room loses a turn - after battling any Monsters."), which is what makes it somewhat confusing. Based on your answer, I'd say it would go like this:
1 - Enter restroom, fight-lose-die, drop loot, lay character on the side.
2 - Drop loot, stand character.
3 - Drop loot (third in the same room now), move three rooms.
4 - Drop loot, move three rooms.
5 - Repeat 4 until arriving at dungeon entrance.

Crap, I knew I should have dug through and gotten the Restroom card out and read it. In that case, yes, your sequence is correct (it's exactly the same as if the missed turn was die to Paralyze).

In the interest of not confusing anyone else, I'll strike it from my previous response.


Your answer raises another question though. After resting, do you miss the turn in which you unflip shticks as well? Is this right:
1 - Player choses to rest before doing anything else, lays character down.
2 - Unflips shticks, heals a wound and stands character up.
3 - Player can now do whatever.


Your sequence is correct, because Resting and Missing a Turn work differently. Resting a turn needs to be declared at the start of your turn, so the turn you "miss" is that one, while Missing a Turn usually happens at the end of a turn in which you did something--battled or moved or whatever.


Or in a different wording, does resting cause you to do nothing else (moving or battling) for two turns?

No, only one, as above.


The rules aren't very clear on whether or not your turn ends after unflipping shticks.

Perhaps, but the example says that Roy has to make a decision about resting again on that same turn, something he could not do if his turn was over. Also, standing up and unflipping is listed as something you do "at the start of your turn" in the beginning of the rules, not instead of your turn.

[Arcade]

I have a question regarding "Eternal Gratitude"
- When using "Eternal Gratitude", does this let you reclaim only 1 loot card from the person you offered loot to, or can you reclaim all loot you offered to them in this battle?

And since I'm asking questions, does V's Protective Spell or Durkon's Sturdy Shield prevent only 1 wound taken in an attack, or all wounds (if attacked by Belkar's boosted Twin Daggers, for instance)? I'm assuming only 1, but it wouldn't be the first time I misread a card.

PS. Thanks for clarification on the fleeing rule, Giant.

[Jonsayt]

I have a question regarding one of Roy's shticks.....I think it's the one called "It's Called Foreshadowing".....whichever one lets you look at a player's battlehand and make them discard a monster.

Can Roy use the shtick on himself?

Examples of when you would want to:
- You want to lose your monsters so you can draw a fresh battlehand quicker (for more Screw This cards);
- You have a monster in your hand e.g. :thog: and you don't want to risk having to fight him;

[apegamer]

I have a question regarding "Eternal Gratitude"
- When using "Eternal Gratitude", does this let you reclaim only 1 loot card from the person you offered loot to, or can you reclaim all loot you offered to them in this battle?

You can take back all of the loot cards that you gave that player. The sentence at the end says "...you now owe them nothing for their assistance."


And since I'm asking questions, does V's Protective Spell or Durkon's Sturdy Shield prevent only 1 wound taken in an attack, or all wounds (if attacked by Belkar's boosted Twin Daggers, for instance)? I'm assuming only 1, but it wouldn't be the first time I misread a card.

We play that the card prevents one wound. Another instance of taking more than one wound is the monsters' Deadly ability. This question is FAQ-worthy.

[apegamer]

I have a question regarding one of Roy's shticks.....I think it's the one called "It's Called Foreshadowing".....whichever one lets you look at a player's battlehand and make them discard a monster.

Can Roy use the shtick on himself?


This shtick works only for other players.

[Leperflesh]

I have a few questions:

1. Conceptually, does a player's "loot pile" consist of only loot cards they have not equipped, or, both unequipped AND equipped loot? This matters because in some cases, a player is supposed to lose a loot from their "loot pile" randomly, and we wonder if this could include an equipped loot item.

2. If you face a flying monster, and all your Shticks are Range 0, can you still fight Shtickless? What if you are defending?

3. There is a monster which, before you attack it, causes you to Flip one of your Shticks at random. Are we correct in assuming that a) this only applies to your presently Unflipped Shticks (e.g., you do not include Flipped Shticks in the random selection - we know you can't unflip a flipped Shtick by flipping it again) and b) any Shtick can be so flipped, even if it is not normally a Shtick that you flip to use?

4. Still talking about that ability, what happens if your only possible mode of attack against that monster gets Flipped... so you can no longer attack it? Does combat continue anyway, or, can you "call off" your attack, assuming you were making a voluntary attack in the first place?

Thanks

-Lep

[ira212]

Can a shtick which normally doesn't get flipped be flipped?

Can you get 1 loot at the start of your turn, then draw two loot from resting?

You can move through rooms with monsters in them, but you can't move through empty rooms (since a monster will spawn that you have to fight.) Correct?

Durkon's W.W.T.D. shtick seems lame - it doesn't actually let draw more cards net, since you redraw whenever you're empty. Perhaps consider playing this as "Draw or Discard up to 3" ?

Can Durkon require players to give him Drool-worthy loot for healing, and have the promise kept? (or is there a chance for backstabbing?)

Thanks,
Ira

[apegamer]

I have a few questions:

1. Conceptually, does a player's "loot pile" consist of only loot cards they have not equipped, or, both unequipped AND equipped loot? This matters because in some cases, a player is supposed to lose a loot from their "loot pile" randomly, and we wonder if this could include an equipped loot item.

I'm going to put the answer to this on hold. We're going to look at the spots in the game that reference 'loot pile' before formulating an answer.


2. If you face a flying monster, and all your Shticks are Range 0, can you still fight Shtickless? What if you are defending?

Yes, you'll fight shtickless. If you win, the battle is a draw.


3. There is a monster which, before you attack it, causes you to Flip one of your Shticks at random. Are we correct in assuming that a) this only applies to your presently Unflipped Shticks (e.g., you do not include Flipped Shticks in the random selection - we know you can't unflip a flipped Shtick by flipping it again) and b) any Shtick can be so flipped, even if it is not normally a Shtick that you flip to use?

Right, only an unflipped shtick will flip, even if it doesn't normally flip.


4. Still talking about that ability, what happens if your only possible mode of attack against that monster gets Flipped... so you can no longer attack it? Does combat continue anyway, or, can you "call off" your attack, assuming you were making a voluntary attack in the first place?

You will fight shtickless - no calling it off. And when fighting shtickless, battles you win are a draw.

[apegamer]

Can a shtick which normally doesn't get flipped be flipped?

Yes.


Can you get 1 loot at the start of your turn, then draw two loot from resting?

No. You cannot do anything when you rest except pick up the loot. It sounds like you're asking if you can pick up a loot, move to another room, then pick up 2 more loot and rest. If you rest in a room, you pick up (up to) 2 loot.


You can move through rooms with monsters in them, but you can't move through empty rooms (since a monster will spawn that you have to fight.) Correct?

No, you can move through rooms with monsters as well as through rooms without monsters. Only when you stop in a room do monsters populate.


Durkon's W.W.T.D. shtick seems lame - it doesn't actually let draw more cards net, since you redraw whenever you're empty. Perhaps consider playing this as "Draw or Discard up to 3" ?

I don't think it's lame. I love being able to replenish my hand periodically to get new Screw This! cards and monsters - especially since Durkon rests periodically for his other shticks.


Can Durkon require players to give him Drool-worthy loot for healing, and have the promise kept? (or is there a chance for backstabbing?)

I'm not sure I understand the question. Players give Durkon loot and he flips his Cure Assorted Wounds shtick to heal them. It's voluntary for players to give the loot to Durkon for the heal. He can't force them to heal.

[ira212]

Thanks for the blazingly quick and helpful reply!


You cannot do anything when you rest except pick up the loot. It sounds like you're asking if you can pick up a loot, move to another room, then pick up 2 more loot and rest. If you rest in a room, you pick up (up to) 2 loot.
I was asking: can I pick up 1 loot at the beginning of my turn, then do nothing else except rest (and pick up 2 more loot.) The rules state that you can rest as long as you haven't moved or battled, and when you rest, you don't move or battle. It doesn't say anything about the other beginning of turn effects, like searching for stairs, equipping, trading things in for shticks, picking up loot, etc.


I love being able to replenish my hand periodically to get new Screw This! cards and monsters - especially since Durkon rests periodically for his other shticks.
Hmm. If you add three cards to your hand, it's that much longer before you draw 7 new ones. It's nice to hear that someone out there likes it. :) It seemed to me that instead of drawing 3 cards, I could just wait a bit and draw 7. Am I misplaying this?

Maybe in the expansion there could be a shtick that allows someone (Durkon, Haley?) to keep unused Screw This cards when they draw a new hand.


I'm not sure I understand the question.
OK, let me try again:
Durkon: Belkar, I see that you're 1 wound away from death. I could heal you with my twice-boosted Cure Assorted Wounds for 3. In compensation, I would expect loot worthy of my immense holy power of healing.
Belkar: I have this loot that you doubly drool over. Would that meet your needs, your holiness?
Durkon: Yes, my child. I heal you. (flips over the Cure Assorted Wounds spell.)
Belkar: (hands Durkon a loot card...)

Given the agreement, must Belkar give Durkon the claimed loot (i.e. does Durkon know what he's getting in advance?), or could Belkar give anything?

Thanks,
Ira

[apegamer]

I was asking: can I pick up 1 loot at the beginning of my turn, then do nothing else except rest (and pick up 2 more loot.)

You would pick up 2 loot at the start of your turn, then rest. On your next turn, if there is still loot in the room, you can pick up one and take your normal turn or rest and pick up 2 more loot.


Given the agreement, must Belkar give Durkon the claimed loot (i.e. does Durkon know what he's getting in advance?), or could Belkar give anything?

Belkar gives Durkon ANY loot card. Actually, Durkon and Belkar don't need to discuss what loot card he'll give him. The intent of the shtick is that ANY loot can be given to him - not necessarily just loot he drools over. Durkon shouldn't expect to get loot he drools over.

[Zink]

Regarding Belkar's Poor Tracking Skills:

What happens if a player is required to play a monster into the room, but only has monsters of the type Belkar was looking for? Do the other players skip his turn, does he play the monster of that type, or does he have to discard his battle hand (which has monsters in it) and draw a new one?

[apegamer]

Regarding Belkar's Poor Tracking Skills:

What happens if a player is required to play a monster into the room, but only has monsters of the type Belkar was looking for? Do the other players skip his turn, does he play the monster of that type, or does he have to discard his battle hand (which has monsters in it) and draw a new one?

Good question. He should have to discard his battle hand and draw a new one. If he doesn't, then he may be stuck with that battle hand and continually get skipped skipped, as Poor Tracking Skills doesn't flip.

[Adeptus]

The wording on the ranged attack description made us think that any creature within reach was fair game. Is this what is intended?

This makes it possible to snipe the demon roaches from the bottom of a stack, so they won't be there later to assist the topmost creature in a fight.

Relating to that is a question regarding V's fireball. It effects several creatures in a stack. Does V get to choose which (as we played), or does it effect the topmost n cards (as I now think)?


[I didn't notice there was a separate thread for rule-questions. Now I know, so I'm putting my questions here.]

[Adeptus]

Having participated in a five player game I found myself pretty puzzled by the wording on the Ambush ability.

"...when this card enters play" was really confusing, since it never seemed to come up. Does the ambush happen the first time that creature is fought (as the card comes to the top of the stack) or only if that card is played as the top card?

I also found it a bit perplexing that Xykon is always on the top of his own stack, and that the dungeon collapse ends when he is defeated. From the comic, I'd have fought you have to fight a roomfull of people to get to him.

[This is also a copy, now that I know where these questions are supposed to be posted]

[bwcMD]

To Adeptus' questions:

Ranged attacks only target the topmost monster in a stack. You therefore cannot snipe selectively supporting monsters from the bottom of the stack (part of the advantage of having the Demon Roaches automatically go to the bottom of the pile). Likewise, area attacks only target the monsters at the top, counting down until the proper number of monsters is reached. The only exception is Durkon's Turn Undead, which specifically targets all undead and nothing else.

As for the Ambush ability, it's only used on the first turn the card is played. So when a Dire Lemming, supported by two other cards, first attacks, it gets an attack of 7 (it's baseline) + 6 (+3 for each supporting card) for a total Attack of 13. If the PC doesn't kill it on the first turn (either by using a defensive schtick like Hide, or just by taking damage), anyone else who attacks it (even the original PC on subsequent turns) doesn't have to contend with the extra +3's--just the baseline Attack of 7 (and whatever it's Defense value is).

As for Xykon being at the top of the stack, this goes back to your first question--by having all those goblins and undead beneath him, it allows them to support him, adding enormously to the strength of Xykon himself. It doesn't quite match the comic, but then again Roy did take Xykon out while there were a lot of monsters still about, and most of them simply fled in terror.

[Toriko]

I have a few question about assisting

When a player is assisting in a fight does that bonus last only for the battle with the top monster in the room?

(I really love the game and I can't wait to play with more than 2 people)

[apegamer]

The wording on the ranged attack description made us think that any creature within reach was fair game. Is this what is intended?

This makes it possible to snipe the demon roaches from the bottom of a stack, so they won't be there later to assist the topmost creature in a fight.

Relating to that is a question regarding V's fireball. It effects several creatures in a stack. Does V get to choose which (as we played), or does it effect the topmost n cards (as I now think)?

You must attack piles top-down in both cases. For area effects, you affect the top X monsters in the pile. Those pesky demon roaches are safe on the bottom of the pile until you nuke everything else.

[apegamer]

"...when this card enters play" was really confusing, since it never seemed to come up. Does the ambush happen the first time that creature is fought (as the card comes to the top of the stack) or only if that card is played as the top card?

If the monster is encountered on the turn it comes into play.


I also found it a bit perplexing that Xykon is always on the top of his own stack, and that the dungeon collapse ends when he is defeated. From the comic, I'd have fought you have to fight a roomfull of people to get to him.

Monsters below Xykon are used to beef him up. The 'big fight' before meeting Xykon happens in the other rooms in Xykon's Lair.

[apegamer]

I have a few question about assisting

When a player is assisting in a fight does that bonus last only for the battle with the top monster in the room?

Yes, only for a single die roll (i.e. single battle.)

I should add this as a clarification to the FAQ, as I get this question while I'm demo'ing the game.

[Kumquat]

1. some of the Xykon floor cards specify that you can not rest in that room, while most do not, and the Safe Haven specifically says you can. Does this mean that the part on the safe haven is just an extra sentance, or can you not rest in the rest of the xykon floor rooms and the Xykon's Secret Layer cards have the extra sentance?

2. this is more of a general curiosity question, but why can you only use Roy's charge schtick when going into empty rooms, rather than anytime you end your movement in a room causing you to fight monsters? also, do you have to choose to use the charge before monsters are played or can you wait to see what you have to fight before choosing whether you charged in?

[Ske]

My first game to reach Xykon's lair "ended" about an hour ago, but we weren't sure on how to handle Xykon exactly. It was a short game (2 player), so we were on level 4, and I enter the Throne Room and find Xykon. Unluckily, just prior to this, I had picked up a new battle deck hand consisting of a beige dragon and three demon roaches (one was the king). My friend chose to put a leader with horde ability down beneath Xykon along with something else, so I already had to put at least the rest of my battle hand in the room as well. Seeing as this consisted of the three henchmen, the battle size was suddenly so big, that we couldn't avoid supporting something with horde, no matter what we put down (more or less). When we were done, the rest of the battle deck cards were in that pile, giving Xykon 68 attack and defense from the 25 undead and goblins under him. Is this right? We ended the game shortly after, seeing as none of us (Roy, Durkon) could anything about him like that.

[Arcade]

My first game to reach Xykon's lair "ended" about an hour ago, but we weren't sure on how to handle Xykon exactly. It was a short game (2 player), so we were on level 4, and I enter the Throne Room and find Xykon. Unluckily, just prior to this, I had picked up a new battle deck hand consisting of a beige dragon and three demon roaches (one was the king). My friend chose to put a leader with horde ability down beneath Xykon along with something else, so I already had to put at least the rest of my battle hand in the room as well. Seeing as this consisted of the three henchmen, the battle size was suddenly so big, that we couldn't avoid supporting something with horde, no matter what we put down (more or less). When we were done, the rest of the battle deck cards were in that pile, giving Xykon 68 attack and defense from the 25 undead and goblins under him. Is this right? We ended the game shortly after, seeing as none of us (Roy, Durkon) could anything about him like that.

You did it right. Whenever you go down to Xykon's level, you really want to be careful about how much support you give him. In your case, you should have made sure your battle hand was adequately stocked with non-support cards before you went down. And opposing players need to make a balance between having a Xykon that will stop you this time and having a Xykon that can never be beaten.

In your case, there were also a few things you can do. First, Durkon's turn undead schtick can still be used on all the undead under Xykon, which would remove some support. Second, if you get the Screw This card "I forgot they could do that", you can remove Xykon's support Assist and then have a much more even fight.

[Ske]

In your case, there were also a few things you can do. First, Durkon's turn undead schtick can still be used on all the undead under Xykon, which would remove some support. Second, if you get the Screw This card "I forgot they could do that", you can remove Xykon's support Assist and then have a much more even fight.


We did consider that, but we ended before he got it. Most rooms on floors 1-2 were 'out of bounds' because of stuff we couldn't kill for various reasons (mostly flying), so my friend playing Durkon never got very many shticks. I had all shticks as Roy, but he's a one-at-a-time kind of guy.
I did have "I forgot they could that" at some point, obviously, as we went through the entire battle deck, but we weren't sure if it could be used on support abilities. We agreed that it couldn't, since it would make Xykon a pushover. 16/16 atk/def seemed too easy.

[Zavod]

The Lute card says you can flip a "Bard Song" card.

My question is: If you have 3 "Bard Song" cards in play, can you flip all three of them at once to get 3x the bonus, or are you limited to one per turn?

I played with flipping all 3 and it worked fairly well. But it is fairly powerful.

Thanks!

[The Giant]

The Lute card says you can flip a "Bard Song" card.

My question is: If you have 3 "Bard Song" cards in play, can you flip all three of them at once to get 3x the bonus, or are you limited to one per turn?

I played with flipping all 3 and it worked fairly well. But it is fairly powerful.

You played it correctly. It is fairly powerful, but can only be used once before needing to rest.


My first game to reach Xykon's lair "ended" about an hour ago, but we weren't sure on how to handle Xykon exactly. It was a short game (2 player), so we were on level 4, and I enter the Throne Room and find Xykon. Unluckily, just prior to this, I had picked up a new battle deck hand consisting of a beige dragon and three demon roaches (one was the king). My friend chose to put a leader with horde ability down beneath Xykon along with something else, so I already had to put at least the rest of my battle hand in the room as well. Seeing as this consisted of the three henchmen, the battle size was suddenly so big, that we couldn't avoid supporting something with horde, no matter what we put down (more or less). When we were done, the rest of the battle deck cards were in that pile, giving Xykon 68 attack and defense from the 25 undead and goblins under him. Is this right? We ended the game shortly after, seeing as none of us (Roy, Durkon) could anything about him like that.

Yes, you played it correctly. This is one of those things that works out better when you have played the game a few times and can predict the likely results. It is usually to the benefit of players to not carry around demon roach cards when someone is going towards Xykon, or to save cards that can nullify Xykon's Support somehow.

Also, don't forget that there is no limit to the amount of Loot you can offer NPCs from your hand for one battle, so in a two-player game, you can offer Loot to V, Haley, Belkar, and Elan in large quantities.


1. some of the Xykon floor cards specify that you can not rest in that room, while most do not, and the Safe Haven specifically says you can. Does this mean that the part on the safe haven is just an extra sentance, or can you not rest in the rest of the xykon floor rooms and the Xykon's Secret Layer cards have the extra sentance?

It is an extra sentence, leftover from a point in time when the proto-rules said you couldn't rest in ANY room in Xykon's Lair. That proved too harsh, so we changed it to only not being able to rest in the corridors. However, the room still functions normally, and may be useful in certain variants where the rules again state that there's no resting in Xykon's Lair.


2. this is more of a general curiosity question, but why can you only use Roy's charge schtick when going into empty rooms, rather than anytime you end your movement in a room causing you to fight monsters?

Balance. Roy is really powerful already, and giving him the option of using Charge in essentially every fight would be too much of an advantage.


also, do you have to choose to use the charge before monsters are played or can you wait to see what you have to fight before choosing whether you charged in?

You can use Charge at any time after the first Monster is played up until you roll the die.


OK, let me try again:
Durkon: Belkar, I see that you're 1 wound away from death. I could heal you with my twice-boosted Cure Assorted Wounds for 3. In compensation, I would expect loot worthy of my immense holy power of healing.
Belkar: I have this loot that you doubly drool over. Would that meet your needs, your holiness?
Durkon: Yes, my child. I heal you. (flips over the Cure Assorted Wounds spell.)
Belkar: (hands Durkon a loot card...)

Given the agreement, must Belkar give Durkon the claimed loot (i.e. does Durkon know what he's getting in advance?), or could Belkar give anything?

Belkar is not required to show Durkon what Loot he will give in advance. If Belkar agrees, Durkon heals him, and then Belkar picks one Loot from his Loot Stash and hands it to Durkon, without requiring Durkon's approval. Belkar could, I suppose, show Durkon a specific Loot and say he will give it to him in return for a heal, but the rules do not require Belkar to honor his word in that regard.

Remember that ALL Loot is useful, though; Durkon gathers a lot of Loot that isn't Drool-Worthy, but he can then turn around and use that to gain assistance in battle.

[Rhasimir]

I have a question about Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion. Actually it was funnier when I did not realize the text says that I *may* move a monster, not *must*. Anyways, I was in the second room in Xykon's lair, and the only available room to move the monster to was the Safe Haven, which has a battle size of 0! Is it legal to move a monster in a room with a battle size of 0? Or in that case should I have won but kept the monster in the same room as me?

[whatsit]

my set doesnt have any penultimate arcane powers. for that matter it only has 3 of Vs starting shticks. Can anyone tell me what the penultimate power card shtick does, and what V's 4 starting shticks are?

Thanks

[apegamer]

my set doesnt have any penultimate arcane powers. for that matter it only has 3 of Vs starting shticks. Can anyone tell me what the penultimate power card shtick does, and what V's 4 starting shticks are?

Please email me privately with contact information, along with what cards you're missing and we'll replace them.

The full list of game components can be found in a sticky post on this same forum.

[Xanthos]

One question that came up last night was Roy's Party Leadership schtick. It states that when he assists someone in battle, he may either heal a wound or unflip a schitck. I took this to mean heal one of Roy's wounds or unflip one of Roy's schticks, but the rest of my party said he could heal anyone or unflip anyone's schtick with that ability since it does not specifically refer to him. Which of us is right?

[apegamer]

One question that came up last night was Roy's Party Leadership schtick. It states that when he assists someone in battle, he may either heal a wound or unflip a schitck. I took this to mean heal one of Roy's wounds or unflip one of Roy's schticks, but the rest of my party said he could heal anyone or unflip anyone's schtick with that ability since it does not specifically refer to him. Which of us is right?

It's one of Roy's shticks or Roy's wounds.

[evnafets]

In a question related to Roys "Fearless Leader" shtick, does the person asking for aid still need to bribe him with Loot, or does the shtick override that requirement?

I can see people being reluctant to call in Roy if they have to pay him loot AND he gets healed/unflips a shtick.

[Khanthal]

Belkar does a twin daggers of doom + leaping attack at Roy from Range 1.

Roy only has his greenihlt sword with which to defend.

Leaping says it moves you to the target room at end of turn, you may loot if there are no monsters.

I can see this playing out one of two ways:

a) This is a ranged attack, greenhilt doesn't work. Roy defends without a schtick and gets smashed (at worst its a draw since it's w/o schtick). Belkar however does NOT get to loot an equipped loot since he didn't attack at range 0. End of turn Belkar moves in and may grab 1 loot if any happens to be laying around in the room and there are no monsters.

b) This is considered range 0 because belkar is moving into the room. Greenhilt sword applies for defense. If belkar wins he gets to steal one equipped loot.

The trouble is that while a) seems right it also seems wrong. One would think Belkar's best attack should get him loot. Though I suppose he could always move into the room and attack for the same net bonus and get a loot.

Also a) seems a bit wrong in that you'd think greenhilt would work against a flying halfling. Maybe he's just too fast heh. And it seems unfair to let Roy defend with his sword but leave Belkar with no chance at loot.

-----

Also, versus monsters am I correct in thinking that Belkar does not get 2 loots from a range 1 leap at a single monster that he kills? He just gets a standard end of turn 1 loot?

Presumably he can search for stairs.

[Arcade]

In a question related to Roys "Fearless Leader" shtick, does the person asking for aid still need to bribe him with Loot, or does the shtick override that requirement?

I can see people being reluctant to call in Roy if they have to pay him loot AND he gets healed/unflips a shtick.

He does get the loot. The downside for Roy is that he can never say no to assisting other characters, even if he would want to.

[Arcade]

Belkar does a twin daggers of doom + leaping attack at Roy from Range 1.

Roy only has his greenihlt sword with which to defend.

Leaping says it moves you to the target room at end of turn, you may loot if there are no monsters.

I can see this playing out one of two ways:

a) This is a ranged attack, greenhilt doesn't work. Roy defends without a schtick and gets smashed (at worst its a draw since it's w/o schtick). Belkar however does NOT get to loot an equipped loot since he didn't attack at range 0. End of turn Belkar moves in and may grab 1 loot if any happens to be laying around in the room and there are no monsters.

b) This is considered range 0 because belkar is moving into the room. Greenhilt sword applies for defense. If belkar wins he gets to steal one equipped loot.

The trouble is that while a) seems right it also seems wrong. One would think Belkar's best attack should get him loot. Though I suppose he could always move into the room and attack for the same net bonus and get a loot.

Also a) seems a bit wrong in that you'd think greenhilt would work against a flying halfling. Maybe he's just too fast heh. And it seems unfair to let Roy defend with his sword but leave Belkar with no chance at loot.

-----

Also, versus monsters am I correct in thinking that Belkar does not get 2 loots from a range 1 leap at a single monster that he kills? He just gets a standard end of turn 1 loot?

Presumably he can search for stairs.

We've played it that Belkar attacks Roy from range, but he gets an equipped loot if he wins. Roy has to fight schtickless. In other words, Belkar moves as soon as the battle dice have been resolved.

In your second question versus monsters, Belkar does get 2 loot from a range leap at a single monster that he kills (which is what the text on the card refers to). He can search for stairs. He could also attack Roy, take an equipped loot if he won, and then pick up one loot on the ground since he ended his turn there.

[Khanthal]

We've played it that Belkar attacks Roy from range, but he gets an equipped loot if he wins. Roy has to fight schtickless. In other words, Belkar moves as soon as the battle dice have been resolved.


That doesn't seem fair at all. Either it's a ranged attack and roy fights schtickless but belkar gets no equipped loot OR it's range 0 and Roy uses greenhilt and belkar gets loot. I don't see how you can mix-match.



In your second question versus monsters, Belkar does get 2 loot from a range leap at a single monster that he kills (which is what the text on the card refers to). He can search for stairs. He could also attack Roy, take an equipped loot if he won, and then pick up one loot on the ground since he ended his turn there.

I don't see how Belkar gets 2 loots. The card says he only moves there at the end of the turn so he follows the normal ranged mechanic (he doesnt get to loot 2 for killing the last monster) and just follows the end of turn loot mechanic.

[apegamer]

In a question related to Roys "Fearless Leader" shtick, does the person asking for aid still need to bribe him with Loot, or does the shtick override that requirement?

I can see people being reluctant to call in Roy if they have to pay him loot AND he gets healed/unflips a shtick.


Yes, the person asking for aid gives Roy loot as usual. Whenever this occurs, Roy can unflip a shtick or heal a wound.

You're right, if you have the Belt of Gender Changing with both Roy's picture and Elan's picture on it, you'll probably want to give it to Elan, especially if he's got a Bard Song or two in play.

[apegamer]

That doesn't seem fair at all. Either it's a ranged attack and roy fights schtickless but belkar gets no equipped loot OR it's range 0 and Roy uses greenhilt and belkar gets loot. I don't see how you can mix-match.

When Belkar attacks Roy with Twin Daggers of Doom, he's attacking from Range 1, not Range 0, so Roy cannot use Greenhilt Sword. After the attack is resolved, Belkar moves into the room and can take a loot from Roy.


I don't see how Belkar gets 2 loots. The card says he only moves there at the end of the turn so he follows the normal ranged mechanic (he doesnt get to loot 2 for killing the last monster) and just follows the end of turn loot mechanic.

I'll have to go back to look exactly how it's worded, but I think that if at the end of your turn you're in a room which you cleared out the last monster, you can take 2 loot. Consider that to be the case unless I come back and edit this post.

[bakaninja]

Several nit-picky questions that have come up. As far as I can tell, they haven't been addressed in this thread (crosses fingers).

Durkon's Darkvision lets you see the top card on the room stack. DOes this apply to Xykon's room stack as well, once you're in Xykon's Lair?

This is probably a long shot, but can Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion move a monster stack in 2 different directions? I.e. move Sabine, Nale, and THog right and move the 2 forgettable goblins left? Or does it move the entire monster pile together in 1 direction?

"There is no I in team", punishes the assisting player with a wound when the battling player loses. Can it be played after a Double Cross? (which adds your assist to the monster instead of the player) It seemed like an effective counter against Double Cross. Also, could you theoretically play multiple copies? I had a game where I was double crossed by Roy, so multiple "There is no I in team"'s were played, killing Roy. I was highly amused.

Can Belkar flip 2 Halfling Rages, if both copies are face up? Flip both copies for +6, +6? And if he does, how many wounds does he lose?

The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?

If Durkon rolls a 14 at the Shrine of THor, what happens? (Through the Divine Intervention of THor which turns 1's into 13's, and the fact that Durkon gets +1 at the Shrine.) We ruled that Thor himself blessed Durkon's Faithfulness, and that everyone else had to fetch him snacks and drinks from the living room. I think this should become an official errata.

Can I give loot to NPC's if _I_ am the only other player who drools over it?

I won (yay!) last night by meeting Xykon, and then forgetting he could do that to his support bonuses from Goblins and undead, making it irrelavent what monsters were put below him. Is that okay? SHould this be allowed? WIthout his AWESOME BONUSES, it was kind of trivial to defeat him.

And to let you know, here's my records with this game, so far:
Belkar vs. Roy - winner is Belkar (Roy was strangely awful with his crippling weakness against flying and impervious, and Belkar never PvP'ed.)
Haley vs. Varsuvius - winner is Haley (by a huge margin, Varsuvius was not good, when Haley is singlehandedly dealing with her stacks, leaving nothing for V)
Elan vs. Durkon - winner is Durkon (Elan is not so good in a 2 player game)

Last night, we had all the OOTS members, except for Elan playing. I won with Durkon, with Haley being the only other member with all 20 shticks. Roy did the worst.

Also, Xykon has been the first monster we've met in 3 out of the 4 games!

Final thought is that the time estimate on the game is a huge underestimation. That being said, I really enjoy the humor of the game and the fact that each character is so different. I've refused to look through the shticks because I want to be surprised (though by now I've seen them all). Very impressive work!

[Trinak]

Searched a little bit and don't think this question has been answered. On the Haley shtick where she gets the bonus from being on the same floor as Elan or Nale (don't remember name of shtick) it gets boosted if she's fighting Nale or Elan. Since she doesn't have another copy of this shtick is the only way to boost it by the screw this card "Get Angry" or is it just boosted whenever she's fighting one of them?

[The Doctor]

When Belkar attacks Roy with Twin Daggers of Doom, he's attacking from Range 1, not Range 0, so Roy cannot use Greenhilt Sword. After the attack is resolved, Belkar moves into the room and can take a loot from Roy.

As a follow up question: if Vaarsuvius uses a ranged attack on (say) Belkar, can he send in his familiar to get loot from Belkar?

And question two:
If I have two bard song shtick cards, and someone flips the bard song Shtick with a Screw this card or Roys/Haley's shtick, do they flip only one 'bard song' card (removing one support), or all cards with that name (disabling the shtick entirely?)?

[The Doctor]

The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?


Just IMO. But while not spelled out, it seems to me "Double Cross" is played before the battle is resolved, and Eternal Gratitude after (that is, the monster is dead and dropped his loot).
So if Eternal Gratitude is played, the battle outcome has already been determined, and then the Double Cross cannot be used any more (as the monster is already defeated and Haley is already filling her bags of holding).

[The Giant]

As a follow up question: if Vaarsuvius uses a ranged attack on (say) Belkar, can he send in his familiar to get loot from Belkar?

No. Blackwing's card specifies "When you defeat the last Monster in a room..." meaning that it has no effect when battling other players.


If I have two bard song shtick cards, and someone flips the bard song Shtick with a Screw this card or Roys/Haley's shtick, do they flip only one 'bard song' card (removing one support), or all cards with that name (disabling the shtick entirely?)?

Only one card is flipped.


Searched a little bit and don't think this question has been answered. On the Haley shtick where she gets the bonus from being on the same floor as Elan or Nale (don't remember name of shtick) it gets boosted if she's fighting Nale or Elan. Since she doesn't have another copy of this shtick is the only way to boost it by the screw this card "Get Angry" or is it just boosted whenever she's fighting one of them?

Currently the only ways to boost this card (called Secret Crush) is through using Get Angry or having Vaarsuvius target it with the Buff Spell shtick. There might be other ways in future expansions.

It is not automatically boosted whenever she's fighting one of them; it merely gains a +4 bonus towards fighting them when it IS boosted by some other means (such as Get Angry). The intent is that when Haley "gets angry" at Elan or Nale, she's much better at fighting them--"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." If it is boosted by Get Angry on a turn when she's not battling Elan or Nale, the Boost has no real effect.


Durkon's Darkvision lets you see the top card on the room stack. DOes this apply to Xykon's room stack as well, once you're in Xykon's Lair?

No. The Room Deck means the deck with the words "Dungeon Rooms" on the back, not the Xykon's Lair deck. If you need an explanation, the magical darkness in Xykon's Lair can't be penetrated by mere darkvision.


This is probably a long shot, but can Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion move a monster stack in 2 different directions? I.e. move Sabine, Nale, and THog right and move the 2 forgettable goblins left? Or does it move the entire monster pile together in 1 direction?

Each monster is moved individually, so yes, you can do that exact thing. Further, if the room has stairs going down, you could move Nale and Sabine down, Thog left, and the two goblins right.


"There is no I in team", punishes the assisting player with a wound when the battling player loses. Can it be played after a Double Cross? (which adds your assist to the monster instead of the player) It seemed like an effective counter against Double Cross.

Nope. Once Double Cross is played, that player is no longer assisting the battling player, they are assisting the Monster (or other player). As a result, they are no longer effected by There is No "I" in Team, which specifically says that only those players that were assisting the losing player lose 1 Wound--and the Double Cross-using player is NOT assisting the losing player anymore.

There is one semi-exception: If the Player A is fighting Player B, and Player C is assisting is assisting Player A. Player C then uses Double Cross so that he is now assisting Player B. Now, if Player B loses, Player C would be affected by a There is No "I" in Team card played on Player B. If Player A loses and the card is thus played on Player A, then Player C is not affected, as he ended up assisting the winner.


Also, could you theoretically play multiple copies? I had a game where I was double crossed by Roy, so multiple "There is no I in team"'s were played, killing Roy. I was highly amused.

Multiple There is No "I" in Team cards can be played, yes, but the exact situation you describe is not legal, since Roy was no longer assisting a player at all.


Can Belkar flip 2 Halfling Rages, if both copies are face up? Flip both copies for +6, +6? And if he does, how many wounds does he lose?

Yes, he can flip both. At the end of the battle, he loses 1 Wound, because the first shtick to be flipped was Boosted by the second copy (meaning that you don't lose 1 Wound for using it), but the second shtick to be flipped was not.


The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?

Vaarsuvius was incorrect here. "After the dice were rolled" means immediately after the die roll, before moving on in the battle sequence. Making the die roll is Step 5; giving Loot to players that assisted you is part of the Aftermath, or Step 7. Haley cannot play Eternal Gratitude until Step 7; the card says to play it immediately AFTER any battle (the Aftermath, as its name implies, is after the battle). Vaarsuvius cannot back the sequence up to Step 5 once the battle is concluded. As a result, he cannot Double Cross Haley after she plays Eternal Gratitude.

This is probably one for the FAQ, though.


If Durkon rolls a 14 at the Shrine of THor, what happens? (Through the Divine Intervention of THor which turns 1's into 13's, and the fact that Durkon gets +1 at the Shrine.) We ruled that Thor himself blessed Durkon's Faithfulness, and that everyone else had to fetch him snacks and drinks from the living room. I think this should become an official errata.

Durkon can't roll a 14; Divine Intervention of Thor specifically states that it works when rolling the die "in battle". Therefore it has no effect on the Shrine of Thor.


Can I give loot to NPC's if _I_ am the only other player who drools over it?

Yes.


I won (yay!) last night by meeting Xykon, and then forgetting he could do that to his support bonuses from Goblins and undead, making it irrelavent what monsters were put below him. Is that okay? SHould this be allowed? WIthout his AWESOME BONUSES, it was kind of trivial to defeat him.

This is, in fact, the very best way to defeat Xykon. It is absolutely legal and has been suggested by us as one of the primary solutions to the "invincible Xykon" problem. Good planning = win.

[bakaninja]

Thanks for the reply! That answers everything I needed to know.

[Trinak]

I've looked through the rules and haven't seen it, but I may have just missed the answer. Anyways, the question is can you range attack and then move? I know you can't move and then attack but can you do the reverse?

[evnafets]

Anyways, the question is can you range attack and then move?

Answer: No.

Reference Page 8 of the rules, "Taking Turns" section 2, paragraph 2 (or is that paragraph 3?)


Movement always comes before battling; if you begin a battle you may no longer move this turn

And then in the section titled "Movement Rules"


You may choose whether or not to move your character on your turn. If you choose to move however you do so before battling monsters or other players

[The Giant]

Yup, that's right. Movement, if there is any, always comes before battling.

[memetics]

Leperflesh (post #179) asks:


1. Conceptually, does a player's "loot pile" consist of only loot cards they have not equipped, or, both unequipped AND equipped loot? This matters because in some cases, a player is supposed to lose a loot from their "loot pile" randomly, and we wonder if this could include an equipped loot item.

[answer "put on hold" by apegamer in post #181]

Page 24, top of column 2, says that the Loot Stash is a "face-down pile of Loot cards that belong to you." Equipped cards are face-up, so they are not part of your Loot Stash. Your Loot Stash is stashed away from prying eyes. Also, page 17 (PvP section) rule 6 clearly distinguishes between equipped Loot and the Loot Stash.

HTH :elan:

-m

[memetics]

Okay; my group has played the game several times and has come up with a nice big set of questions: some are nitpicky, but most (hopefully) are significant. After reading the whole thread, I've eliminated about half of them, so here are our remaining questions. (Apologies in advance for the length of the list - and in spite of that, a dozen times as many thanks to Rich for a highly entertaining game!) :smallbiggrin:

================

:elan: If Elan uses Poorly-Planned Illusion to move creatures, must they move in any particular order, or can Elan decide the order they end up moving and stacking into the new room(s)? (I'm assuming that in whatever order they are added, they must go on top of any existing monsters in the destination rooms, as Rich stipulated earlier.)

---

On discarding loot:
When discarding a loot card that says to discard it to get a schtick, must the loot be equipped first, or can it be discarded from the Loot Stash at any time during your turn? ( :vaarsuvius: V's "Valuable Knowledge" loot allows him to "discard to draw one schtick..." - must it be equipped for him to discard it and get a schtick?)

Similarly, what about discarding three drools' worth of ordinary loot to get a schtick: must that loot be equipped first, or does it matter?

(These "equip to discard" questions were points of contention in our gaming group, particularly the first. I say that "discard" means putting the card in the discard pile, regardless of whether it is taken from your Loot Stash or your Equipped Loot.)

---

Can you use Area Effect schticks in the first battle upon entering a room? Page 18 says that you use Attack and the monsters use Defense. Is this an exception to the normal conduct of combat, where you always use Defense in the first battle upon entering a room, or does it mean that you cannot use Area Effect schticks for that first battle?

---

The Gratuitous Nudity card :elan: says, "This card counts as a match card for the Hide schtick." Does that mean it boosts Hide, or what?

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If Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion moves monsters into Safe Haven ("Battle Size in this room is always equal to 0"), do the monsters go away, or do they sit there waiting to attack?

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When the cards run out in the Loot Deck or the Battle Deck, is that it, or should discard piles be shuffled and recycled when necessary? (Or not shuffled but recycled?)

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:xykon: Xykon has two red Xs - are they irrelevant, since you must keep him for bragging points, or can he be exchanged toward a schtick in addition to the bragging points? Or, since the dungeon is collapsing, is it impossible to acquire more schticks?

---

Page 27 says, "Starting from the room in which Xykon was defeated and moving upward through the Dungeon, each Monster left in play is discarded." Does that mean all rooms on each level, or just the rooms on the path out of the dungeon?

If it's all rooms, should the monsters be removed, and the Loot be dropped, in any particular order? (The question is mainly only relevant in case the Loot deck runs out.) For example, should we have a house rule to vacate each level starting with the lowest and working up, and going from the left-most room to the right-most room on each level? Is there a method preferred by the game designers?

---

Are events such as card effects resolved as instants or interrupts? In other words, do effects generated by Screw This cards, schticks, equipped Loot, etc. take place immediately in the order they are played, or do they resolve in reverse order of play? (I can't remember the exact situation where this came up, but it had something to do with one effect possibly countering or magnifying another.)

---

When two Roach monsters are played in a battle, say an ordinary roach and the roach king, how do you decide which one goes to the very bottom of the battle stack and which one is second from the bottom? (I can imagine a rules literalist going crazy over the paradox.) :roach: :roach:

---

The FAQ appears inconsistent on how 'I Forgot They Could Do That' works with Leader and Horde. I agree with Uthrac and The Giant that once monsters are in play, they should not be un-played.

Would it be fair to say that when IFTCDT is played to negate either Leader or Horde, that the battle size is reduced accordingly, but that if the decrease results in a smaller battle size than the current battle stack, the monsters already in play simply stay where they are?

So if the battle size were normally 3, but it became 5 because of Leader or Horde, and IFTCDT is then used to negate the Leader or Horde after 4 monsters have been played, then the battle simply commences with 4 monsters in the room.

If that's agreeable, then can we get the FAQ updated to reflect this, in response to the question "Q) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders?" The consistency and simplicity of such a ruling would be appreciated!

---

When a non-Monster Xykon's Lair card is played in a room, and it gets flipped when the last monster is defeated (thus deactivating its effect), is it subsequently un-flipped and re-activated if a player enters the empty room again and triggers a battle?

---

:belkar: Both Page 17 (PvP assistance) and Page 13, rule 2 ("you must offer that player *a* Loot card") seem to imply that you can only offer each player one Loot per battle. Page 17 rule 2 says "...assistance beyond the offer of one Loot card..."

Does this mean that PvP assistance is limited to only one Loot card per assisting player? If so, does this only apply to PvP? (The FAQ "Can you give more than one loot per battle?" states that you can offer multiple Loot to the same player.) If PvP assistance is NOT limited to one Loot card, then perhaps the FAQ answer should also stipulate that.

---

mikecyr's question on range and Bloodlust (post #59) seems to need an errata entry. The text on page 12, "any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw," contradicts Bloodlust's text. I propose that the errata should reflect that since the Monster is out of its range, its Bloodlust would not apply, except in the Area Effect scenario described on page 18 (as the monsters are working together in response to the area attack).

===========

Much obliged for any help!
-m

[apegamer]

:elan: If Elan uses Poorly-Planned Illusion to move creatures, must they move in any particular order, or can Elan decide the order they end up moving and stacking into the new room(s)? (I'm assuming that in whatever order they are added, they must go on top of any existing monsters in the destination rooms, as Rich stipulated earlier.)

The monsters can be distributed into various rooms, and can be placed into those rooms in any order. They should be placed on top of any stack of creatures already in the room, though. Well, unless the monsters you're moving are pesky Demon Roaches, which skitter to the bottom.


On discarding loot:
When discarding a loot card that says to discard it to get a schtick, must the loot be equipped first, or can it be discarded from the Loot Stash at any time during your turn? ( :vaarsuvius: V's "Valuable Knowledge" loot allows him to "discard to draw one schtick..." - must it be equipped for him to discard it and get a schtick?)

Similarly, what about discarding three drools' worth of ordinary loot to get a schtick: must that loot be equipped first, or does it matter?

It needn't be equipped - just show the other players that you're trading in the right cards.



Can you use Area Effect schticks in the first battle upon entering a room? Page 18 says that you use Attack and the monsters use Defense. Is this an exception to the normal conduct of combat, where you always use Defense in the first battle upon entering a room, or does it mean that you cannot use Area Effect schticks for that first battle?

The text on page 18 assumes you're attacking with the area effect shtick, but you attack and defend as normal when using area effect shticks. So if you move into a room, then you're defending (and cannot use Fireball, for instance.)


The Gratuitous Nudity card :elan: says, "This card counts as a match card for the Hide schtick." Does that mean it boosts Hide, or what?

It boosts Hide.



If Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion moves monsters into Safe Haven ("Battle Size in this room is always equal to 0"), do the monsters go away, or do they sit there waiting to attack?

The monsters stay there and fight. Similarly, if you move a monster into any room with Battle Size 0, it would remain there. The Battle Size pertains only to populating the room.



When the cards run out in the Loot Deck or the Battle Deck, is that it, or should discard piles be shuffled and recycled when necessary? (Or not shuffled but recycled?)

When they're gone, they're gone. That's motivation to finish up the game before the deck runs out.


:xykon: Xykon has two red Xs - are they irrelevant, since you must keep him for bragging points, or can he be exchanged toward a schtick in addition to the bragging points? Or, since the dungeon is collapsing, is it impossible to acquire more schticks?

You can still acquire shticks while the dungeon is collapsing (though it really only makes sense to trade in monsters, not loot, since loot is worth more victory points at the end of the game.) Xykon is worth 2 times the level bragging points (as mentioned in the FAQ.) You can trade him in for a shtick (along with another XP) but keep track that you killed him, so that you get the points at the end.



Page 27 says, "Starting from the room in which Xykon was defeated and moving upward through the Dungeon, each Monster left in play is discarded." Does that mean all rooms on each level, or just the rooms on the path out of the dungeon?

Every room in the dungeon is cleared of monsters.


If it's all rooms, should the monsters be removed, and the Loot be dropped, in any particular order? (The question is mainly only relevant in case the Loot deck runs out.) For example, should we have a house rule to vacate each level starting with the lowest and working up, and going from the left-most room to the right-most room on each level? Is there a method preferred by the game designers?

Start at the bottom (Xykon's Lair) and work your way up. If you run out, do not use cards from the discard pile - the rest of the monsters just don't drop loot.


Are events such as card effects resolved as instants or interrupts? In other words, do effects generated by Screw This cards, schticks, equipped Loot, etc. take place immediately in the order they are played, or do they resolve in reverse order of play? (I can't remember the exact situation where this came up, but it had something to do with one effect possibly countering or magnifying another.)

Screw This! cards are resolved in LIFO order. In other words, you can play a Screw This! card that negates, changes or amplifies previously-played Screw This! cards.


When two Roach monsters are played in a battle, say an ordinary roach and the roach king, how do you decide which one goes to the very bottom of the battle stack and which one is second from the bottom? (I can imagine a rules literalist going crazy over the paradox.) :roach: :roach:

Demon Roaches go to the bottom of the stack as they're played.


The FAQ appears inconsistent on how 'I Forgot They Could Do That' works with Leader and Horde. I agree with Uthrac and The Giant that once monsters are in play, they should not be un-played.

Would it be fair to say that when IFTCDT is played to negate either Leader or Horde, that the battle size is reduced accordingly, but that if the decrease results in a smaller battle size than the current battle stack, the monsters already in play simply stay where they are?

So if the battle size were normally 3, but it became 5 because of Leader or Horde, and IFTCDT is then used to negate the Leader or Horde after 4 monsters have been played, then the battle simply commences with 4 monsters in the room.

If that's agreeable, then can we get the FAQ updated to reflect this, in response to the question "Q) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders?" The consistency and simplicity of such a ruling would be appreciated!

I updated the FAQ a couple days ago to resolve the inconsistency, but didn't announce the change because we're still playtesting at least one other change that may go into the FAQ.

Cards are not removed from the battle, but the battle stops where it is, as IFTCDT is played, as you indicate.



When a non-Monster Xykon's Lair card is played in a room, and it gets flipped when the last monster is defeated (thus deactivating its effect), is it subsequently un-flipped and re-activated if a player enters the empty room again and triggers a battle?

They're one-shot only cards, so no.



:belkar: Both Page 17 (PvP assistance) and Page 13, rule 2 ("you must offer that player *a* Loot card") seem to imply that you can only offer each player one Loot per battle. Page 17 rule 2 says "...assistance beyond the offer of one Loot card..."

Does this mean that PvP assistance is limited to only one Loot card per assisting player? If so, does this only apply to PvP? (The FAQ "Can you give more than one loot per battle?" states that you can offer multiple Loot to the same player.) If PvP assistance is NOT limited to one Loot card, then perhaps the FAQ answer should also stipulate that.

No, you can offer as many loot as you want to players for assistance, regardless whether it's PvP or PvM.


mikecyr's question on range and Bloodlust (post #59) seems to need an errata entry. The text on page 12, "any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw," contradicts Bloodlust's text. I propose that the errata should reflect that since the Monster is out of its range, its Bloodlust would not apply, except in the Area Effect scenario described on page 18 (as the monsters are working together in response to the area attack).

Well I think people understand the spirit of the rule, but it might not hurt to put it in the FAQ so that the Rules Gestapo don't kick our door in.


As usual, Craig or Rich may have additional comments on this. Nothing's really officially official until it goes in the FAQ.

[Fujin]

When they're gone, they're gone. That's motivation to finish up the game before the deck runs out.

I disagree with this answer. On page 26 of the rules, under REMOVING TRAPS FROM THE GAME, it says "Do NOT put it [the traps] in the Loot Deck discard pile. If you do, then when the Loot Deck needs to be reshuffled, it will be filled with more traps than Loot!"

Additionally, not allowing the monster deck to be reshuffled will cause Xykon to be laughably easy, what with having no possibility of support!




Start at the bottom (Xykon's Lair) and work your way up. If you run out, do not use cards from the discard pile - the rest of the monsters just don't drop loot.

I disagree with this too. Why waste so much loot in Xykon's room when it'll be the first to collapse? You can grab two loot out of it and then its gone. I would say fill loot from top-down, in order to give people a better chance to grab it!

[papertygre]

Hi, I've only read through the first four pages of the thread so far, so I hope these aren't duplicate questions.

- When can Durkon's healing schtick be used? Does it have to be on Durkon's player's turn? Does it have to be in a particular phase of a turn? Can the player use it when resting, before flipping up all their cards? The rules for schticks don't talk about timing for non-battle schticks, and the text on the schtick itself doesn't either give timing requirements or say "anytime".

- How many assistance-for-loot proposals can be extended by a player for a particular battle? The rules don't seem to say, but we thought we found some wording that implied that only one other character can assist in a single battle. However, the wording of one of the answers in the FAQ at http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/OOTSDoD-FAQ.pdf as of 10/25/2006 suggests that multiple players can assist.

Also, a comment on something we found confusing when getting started: it was hard to find the part that explained how and when new Battle Deck cards are drawn. As far as we could tell it was only mentioned in an inset box, not anywhere in the "getting started" area or main rules covering the Battle Deck.

[Jack Mann]

In a normal battle, all the other players can assist if they so choose and are on the same level. They can assist for as much loot as the person requesting assistance is willing to offer.

The only exception is PvP battles. Any given player can only assist one of the people in the duel. So, if Belkar and Roy are fighting, Haley can help one, but not the other.

[Rysith]

With regards to ranged attacks:

I played Vaarsuvias in our 1st game and noted that the Fireball schtick had a range of 4. I went to use this on a monster with a range <4. How does the monster defend?

We played it that the monster was effectively "fighting with no schticks" so therefore as monster's don't roll a defense roll, I would win automatically. The only monsters that had a chance when their range was <0 were any with the "Tricky" ability which then gave them a Defense score of "10" as per the "Tricky" ability to give them +10 (so 0 from lack of range +10 for "Tricky" = 10 total Defense.)

Is this the right way Fireball and any other ranged attacks work against monsters? Some players argued it was too powerful that I could automatically kill these monsters, my argument was that I had to rest after each fight of this type to recover the then flipped Fireball schtick

[Kumquat]

Durkon's Healing schtick can be used at any time except when he is fleeing.

If the monster has range less than the attack against it then it can not attack back, meaning that if you fail to hurt it then, instead of suffering the monsters win conditions (a wound and whatever other abilities it has) the player takes no ill effects, so no wounds and such.

[Rysith]

So specifically, a range attack against a creature with no range defense means that the creature is defeated automatically?

[Totally Guy]

The combat is your attack value against their defence value. If you win you kill them. If they win then nothing happens. The only risk you take is possibly wasting your action and having to flip the shtick, you don't risk taking a wound.

What I'd like to know about area effects is if you can target monsters in more than one room. Lets say V has a boosted fireball that targets four monsters and there are two rooms of two monsters within range. In our games we have assumed that V targets a room rather than stacked targets.

Also turn undead is an area effect, when you use it do you need to find the highest att/def value in the monster stack or the highest att/def value of undead in the stack? If it's just the undead is Xykon included when attempting to remove his zombie support?

Use of this area effect ceases combat? Even if there was only one undead targeted?

Side story... When trying to rectify the invincible Xykon scenario (which has only happened once in many many games (he got to 66att/def)) we tried that but then decided to hold out for an "I forgot they could do that" which led to "I rest, I flip What would Thor do, I rest again", which was a funny combo. Durkon had a huge number of screw this cards and only lost because a player got lucky with drawing a new battle hand.

[Rysith]

No everyone is missing the point :)

If you use a ranged attack of say range 4 against a monster that has a range of <4 the rules state that the monster cannot defend against the attack. Therefore we concluded that since it cannot attack it is defeated automatically. Is this the correct interpretation?

[Gamer5389]

If the monster doesn't have enough range to reach the attacker then "the Monster cannot win the battle; any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw" (12). Other than that, the roll plays out normally. You still roll against its defense, only exception being that if your result is lower than its defense you don't get a wound.

For Area Effects, it states that you only take the highest defense of that monster that is directly targeted. A two target fireball wouldn't take the 4th monster's defense. Likewise a non-undead wouldn't count against for Turn Undead. Here's the Giant's ruling on TU against Xykon.

"Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!"

[BlackDragon1200]

1. What would happen if while a player is asking for assistance in battle i used dun dun DUN!!!! to flip the Battle Shtick they chose to use in that battle?

2. If i sucessfully use Poorly-Planned Illusion and choose to move the monster into the next room, if that room already has monsters in it does the moved monster go to the top or bottom of the battle stack?

Thanks!

[The Giant]

I disagree with this answer. On page 26 of the rules, under REMOVING TRAPS FROM THE GAME, it says "Do NOT put it [the traps] in the Loot Deck discard pile. If you do, then when the Loot Deck needs to be reshuffled, it will be filled with more traps than Loot!"

Additionally, not allowing the monster deck to be reshuffled will cause Xykon to be laughably easy, what with having no possibility of support!

I disagree with this too. Why waste so much loot in Xykon's room when it'll be the first to collapse? You can grab two loot out of it and then its gone. I would say fill loot from top-down, in order to give people a better chance to grab it!

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn. So that if you run out of Monsters in the middle of filling up a high Battle Size, the deck is not reshuffled until the end of the turn. Same thing with the Loot, which would mean that when the Monsters vanish with Xykon's death, you deal out Loot into the dungeon until the current deck runs out, then you're done. This one will need further behind-the-scenes consultation, though.

You do, however, deal Loot from the bottom of the dungeon up when it collapses, to prevent people from hanging around the Entrance to grab free Loot while someone kills Xykon, then grabbing the bonus for being the first to exit, too.


- When can Durkon's healing schtick be used? Does it have to be on Durkon's player's turn? Does it have to be in a particular phase of a turn? Can the player use it when resting, before flipping up all their cards? The rules for schticks don't talk about timing for non-battle schticks, and the text on the schtick itself doesn't either give timing requirements or say "anytime".

Cure Additional Wounds can be used at any time. Note, however, that if Durkon is fleeing the dungeon, he cannot heal himself until after he has reached the Dungeon Entrance. He could still heal others, however.

Also, you can't flip the shtick between the time you learn you are losing your last Wound and the time you actually lose it, or any other silly ways of trying to retroactively prevent fleeing the dungeon. Use common sense.


- How many assistance-for-loot proposals can be extended by a player for a particular battle? The rules don't seem to say, but we thought we found some wording that implied that only one other character can assist in a single battle. However, the wording of one of the answers in the FAQ at http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/OOTSDoD-FAQ.pdf as of 10/25/2006 suggests that multiple players can assist.

You may ask for assistance from any number of players, except those who you are battling in Player vs. Player combat, obviously.


With regards to ranged attacks:

I played Vaarsuvias in our 1st game and noted that the Fireball schtick had a range of 4. I went to use this on a monster with a range <4. How does the monster defend?

We played it that the monster was effectively "fighting with no schticks" so therefore as monster's don't roll a defense roll, I would win automatically. The only monsters that had a chance when their range was <0 were any with the "Tricky" ability which then gave them a Defense score of "10" as per the "Tricky" ability to give them +10 (so 0 from lack of range +10 for "Tricky" = 10 total Defense.)

Is this the right way Fireball and any other ranged attacks work against monsters? Some players argued it was too powerful that I could automatically kill these monsters, my argument was that I had to rest after each fight of this type to recover the then flipped Fireball schtick

No, you are playing this incorrectly.

A Monster attacked at Range that cannot respond still has a Defense score, and you must still beat that Defense score with your die-roll-plus-Attack. The only difference is in what happens if you FAIL to defeat the Monster. If you lose a battle against a Monster without sufficient Range to fight back, you suffer no ill effects. You don't lose a Wound or get paralyzed or anyhting else; it's treated like a draw.

Incidentally, based on your question, I can see that you are playing the rules on battling without a shtick incorrectly, too. If a player battles without a shtick, they do NOT lose automatically. They still roll the die, they just don't get to add bonus to that roll. A win by a player without a shtick does not defeat a Monster, it counts as a draw.


What I'd like to know about area effects is if you can target monsters in more than one room. Lets say V has a boosted fireball that targets four monsters and there are two rooms of two monsters within range. In our games we have assumed that V targets a room rather than stacked targets.

No, you can only target Monsters in one room at a time. If you can taget more Monsters than there are occupants in the room, the excess are wasted.


Also turn undead is an area effect, when you use it do you need to find the highest att/def value in the monster stack or the highest att/def value of undead in the stack?

Just the undead.


If it's just the undead is Xykon included when attempting to remove his zombie support?

No, Xykon isn't targeted by Turn Undead.


Use of this area effect ceases combat? Even if there was only one undead targeted?

I'm not understanding this question, sorry.


1. What would happen if while a player is asking for assistance in battle i used dun dun DUN!!!! to flip the Battle Shtick they chose to use in that battle?

They can choose another shtick before they roll the die. If they don't have another shtick available, they must battle without one.


2. If i sucessfully use Poorly-Planned Illusion and choose to move the monster into the next room, if that room already has monsters in it does the moved monster go to the top or bottom of the battle stack?

Top.

[apegamer]

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn.

Right. I looked this up after I responded (I should have done those steps in the reverse order.) In all of the testing and demos that I've done, this situation hasn't arisen, though one of the other playtesters (Krago on this forum) said that he'd seen it.

[Moebius]

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn. So that if you run out of Monsters in the middle of filling up a high Battle Size, the deck is not reshuffled until the end of the turn. Same thing with the Loot, which would mean that when the Monsters vanish with Xykon's death, you deal out Loot into the dungeon until the current deck runs out, then you're done. This one will need further behind-the-scenes consultation, though.

You do, however, deal Loot from the bottom of the dungeon up when it collapses, to prevent people from hanging around the Entrance to grab free Loot while someone kills Xykon, then grabbing the bonus for being the first to exit, too.

Hmmm. Nasty thought.... You take on Xykon, with a huge stack of monsters under him. You manage to win, and Xykon dies and drops loot. His whole 'support stack' of monsters vanishes, and also drops loot. Can you then play 'Gimme Gimme GIMME' and take the huge stack of loot? Or does 'ggG' not work because you didn't defeat the last monster - it just vanished?

[The Giant]

Hmmm. Nasty thought.... You take on Xykon, with a huge stack of monsters under him. You manage to win, and Xykon dies and drops loot. His whole 'support stack' of monsters vanishes, and also drops loot. Can you then play 'Gimme Gimme GIMME' and take the huge stack of loot? Or does 'ggG' not work because you didn't defeat the last monster - it just vanished?

Monsters that are discarded do not count towards being the last Monster in the room; they are treated as simply never having been there at all. If you defeat one or more Monsters in a room, and then any or all remaining Monsters are discarded by any effect, you are considered to have defeated the last Monster in the room that was available to battle, and may pick up your 2 Loot for defeating the last Monster. Therefore, yes, you would be able to use Gimme Gimme GIMME after killing Xykon by virtue of having beat the last Monster that you could battle on that turn in that room.

Note that this principle extends to any effect that discards Monsters...If you are in a room with 2 Monsters, and you beat the first one in battle but used the Muskrat 3000 Loot card effect to discard the second one, you still defeated the last Monster in battle in that room and can pick up 2 Loot that turn. However, if you are in a room with 1 Monster and use the Muskrat 3000 to discard it, you didn't defeat ANY Monsters at all, and do not qualify to pick up 2 Loot.

[chindogu]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?

[Argus]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?

One of the other players opens the rulebook to page 30 and points out that the Xykon Special ability includes "cannot be discarded by any effect (other than beating in battle)".

[The Giant]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?


One of the other players opens the rulebook to page 30 and points out that the Xykon Special ability includes "cannot be discarded by any effect (other than beating in battle)".

Exactly. Xykon cannot be discarded by the Muskrat 3000, or any effect other than defeating him in battle.

[Wikkin]

(2) Depends on your Durkon strategy. :)
(a) When all three are unflipped, it's certainly in Durkon's favor to use it on himself. And although you MAY accept any loot, there's nothing wrong with &quot;holding out&quot; for a good loot offer . . . (i.e. I'll cure your 3 assorted wounds . . . what exactly are you offering?) [As Durkon, I feel it's okay to &quot;insist&quot; that the drool factor of the loot offered equal the number of wounds healed.]
(b) Although it may seem out of character, if players are being stingy with their loot-for-healing, there's nothing wrong with &quot;teaming up&quot; with Belkar to keep that healing in high demand. ;)
2a doesn't seem legal. The card seems to indicate that healing occurs before the loot is handed over. The player being healed can verbally say they'll give you a Drool loot, and then give you something else.
Basically, in order, :durkon: asks if he can heal :elan:. :elan: either says Yes or No. If :elan: says yes, then :elan: is healed. :elan: then must hand :durkon: a loot card.
How I read it anyways.

[Amon Star]

I have a couple of questions regarding the :elan: shtick Gratuitous Nudity. If you play a Monster on yourself, do you have to close your own eyes? Also, what does it mean by saying that it counts as a match for the Hide shtick?

[The Giant]

2a doesn't seem legal. The card seems to indicate that healing occurs before the loot is handed over. The player being healed can verbally say they'll give you a Drool loot, and then give you something else.
Basically, in order, :durkon: asks if he can heal :elan:. :elan: either says Yes or No. If :elan: says yes, then :elan: is healed. :elan: then must hand :durkon: a loot card.
How I read it anyways.

Yes, that's correct. Elan can tell Durkon that he's giving him Loot Durkon Drools Over, but he is not required to show Durkon that Loot, and he is not required to tell the truth. Even if he does show Durkon a Drool Loot, Elan can give Durkon any Loot in his hand when the deal is done. Basically, while Durkon can try to judge whether or not the players will lie to him, there's nothing preventing them from giving him whatever Loot they want.


I have a couple of questions regarding the :elan: shtick Gratuitous Nudity. If you play a Monster on yourself, do you have to close your own eyes?

Yup.


Also, what does it mean by saying that it counts as a match for the Hide shtick?

It means that it Boosts the Hide shtick. Earlier rules incarnations used the word "match" for "boost" and we forgot to change that one.

[Amon Star]

Yup.



It means that it Boosts the Hide shtick. Earlier rules incarnations used the word "match" for "boost" and we forgot to change that one.

Thanks Giant. :smallsmile:

[Chrismith]

Some questions that have come up in my games:

1) The Eternal Gratitude card states to "Choose any one player that assisted you. You may keep the Loot Card that you originally offered to that player. You now owe them nothing for their assistance." I assume this means that, even if you were offering multiple pieces of loot to a player, you get to keep all of them (as opposed to just one)? Also, the card states to "choose one player". Can it be used on NPC Players as well as human ones?

2) If a player begins his or her turn in a room with monsters, and chooses not to move, does the top monster on the battle stack attack?

3) May players ask for assistance when performing ranged attacks?

4) If a player has defeated all the monsters in a room, may he continue fighting against a player (as if that player were a monster)?

5) When fleeing the dungeon, should players observe the effects of rooms that affect movement? For example, a fleeing player passes through a Dark Room. Does he have to stop there, or can he run though because he is fleeing?

Thanks!

[Ferrinus]

I've had the Dungeons of Dorukan game for a few weeks now but only noticed that this forum existed, like, now (which is odd, because I'm sure I've looked at least once), so I'd like to apologize to The Giant for emailing him with questions about the board game instead of just posting them here.

But anyway:

1) There's no upper limit on the bonus that a single character can give you from assistance, right? So if I give NPC Vaarsuvius ten faces worth of loot I get a whopping +20 bonus for a battle?

2) The game manual says that you can equip or unequip loot at the beginning or end of your turn. Can you equip/unequip at the beginning AND end of your turn? It seems that if you can, the optimal loot strategy is to equip everything at the beginning of your turn, kick a lot of ass, immediately unequip everything at the end of your turn so that no one else can steal it from you, and repeat. After all, there are very few pieces of loot that are actually advantageous to have equipped during downtime, and you can just leave those on anyway. Is this how it's supposed to work?

[apegamer]

1) There's no upper limit on the bonus that a single character can give you from assistance, right? So if I give NPC Vaarsuvius ten faces worth of loot I get a whopping +20 bonus for a battle?

Right.


2) The game manual says that you can equip or unequip loot at the beginning or end of your turn. Can you equip/unequip at the beginning AND end of your turn? It seems that if you can, the optimal loot strategy is to equip everything at the beginning of your turn, kick a lot of ass, immediately unequip everything at the end of your turn so that no one else can steal it from you, and repeat. After all, there are very few pieces of loot that are actually advantageous to have equipped during downtime, and you can just leave those on anyway. Is this how it's supposed to work?

That's essentially true, but not in the spirit of the game. We may add to the FAQ that anything equipped on your turn cannot be unequipped that same turn.

[apegamer]

1) The Eternal Gratitude card states to "Choose any one player that assisted you. You may keep the Loot Card that you originally offered to that player. You now owe them nothing for their assistance." I assume this means that, even if you were offering multiple pieces of loot to a player, you get to keep all of them (as opposed to just one)? Also, the card states to "choose one player". Can it be used on NPC Players as well as human ones?

Yes and Yes.


2) If a player begins his or her turn in a room with monsters, and chooses not to move, does the top monster on the battle stack attack?

No, you attack the top monster, not the other way around. And this is not optional.


3) May players ask for assistance when performing ranged attacks?

Yes.


4) If a player has defeated all the monsters in a room, may he continue fighting against a player (as if that player were a monster)?

No.


5) When fleeing the dungeon, should players observe the effects of rooms that affect movement? For example, a fleeing player passes through a Dark Room. Does he have to stop there, or can he run though because he is fleeing?

Yes, you still observe room effects. This is a good one for the FAQ.

[Amon Star]

If you are forced to miss a turn in a room with monsters, say from paralysis, do you still have to battle them after you missed your go?

[apegamer]

If you are forced to miss a turn in a room with monsters, say from paralysis, do you still have to battle them after you missed your go?

You don't need to battle the monster on the turn that you missed while being paralyzed. On your next turn, after your through being paralyzed, you are still not forced to attack that monster - you can always move out of the room. If you stay in the room, though, you must attack that monster.

[The Giant]

2) The game manual says that you can equip or unequip loot at the beginning or end of your turn. Can you equip/unequip at the beginning AND end of your turn? It seems that if you can, the optimal loot strategy is to equip everything at the beginning of your turn, kick a lot of ass, immediately unequip everything at the end of your turn so that no one else can steal it from you, and repeat. After all, there are very few pieces of loot that are actually advantageous to have equipped during downtime, and you can just leave those on anyway. Is this how it's supposed to work?


That's essentially true, but not in the spirit of the game. We may add to the FAQ that anything equipped on your turn cannot be unequipped that same turn.

If you have no Loot equipped, a player attacking you can draw a Loot from your Loot Stash--and generally speaking, Loot with equipped abilities do not provide as many Drool Icons as some other Loot. So, if you want to unequip your 1-Drool Loot with a special ability in return for risking that the player might pull that 3-Drool Loot you collected out of your stash, then hey, that's your decision.

Not to mention that Loot that boosts your Battle Shticks (like the Starmetal Chunk) or your Attack/Defense in player battles (Like the Snacks) won't help you fend off an angry Belkar if they're not equipped.

[Ferrinus]

If you have no Loot equipped, a player attacking you can draw a Loot from your Loot Stash--and generally speaking, Loot with equipped abilities do not provide as many Drool Icons as some other Loot. So, if you want to unequip your 1-Drool Loot with a special ability in return for risking that the player might pull that 3-Drool Loot you collected out of your stash, then hey, that's your decision.

Well, the thing is this:

1) Your loot stash won't, unless you're doing really awesome, soley contain your own loot. Sure, someone attacking me when I'm Vaarsuvius stands to steal my Ultimate Arcane Power, but he also stands to steal my Stepladder.

2) You don't have to unequip everything. Like, let's say I'm Roy. I definitely unequip the Starmetal Chunk and Glory, because those are critical to my ability to kill like eighty monsters at a time. But at the same time, I can just leave my "Gauntlets of Ogre Stench" or some other crappy one-face loot on, so anyone who attacks me has to take away that while leaving me with all the items that actually manner.


Not to mention that Loot that boosts your Battle Shticks (like the Starmetal Chunk) or your Attack/Defense in player battles (Like the Snacks) won't help you fend off an angry Belkar if they're not equipped.

If I need schtick-boosting PvP insurance, I can always leave stuff like the Megaphone and Snacks equipped while all my kickass expensive monster-hunting gear is safely stashed away. And hey, Snacks in your stash is infinitely better than Snacks in Belkar's hands, right?

[Lord Herman]

First of all, the OOTS adventure game is great! Me and my D&D buddies had a great time.

One rules question came up, though: which loot cards can be exchanged for a schtick? For example, if I'm Roy, can I exchange a card with two Elan faces and one Roy face for a schtick, or can I only use a card with three Roy faces? And can I also use a card with three OOTS logos for this?

[Kumquat]

You must exchange three of your character's icons worth of loot to get a new schtick, i.e. if you are roy you need 3 roy faces worth of loot that can be divided between multiple loot cards, such as 3 simple "thank you"s or maybe just your dad's approval. the Order of the stick symbol counts as a face for every member of the order, so comedy gold is an automatic schtick for anyone.

[Lord Herman]

Ah, okay, I thought they had to be on a single card. That's why the wording confused me. Thanks.

[The Giant]

Well, the thing is this:

1) Your loot stash won't, unless you're doing really awesome, soley contain your own loot. Sure, someone attacking me when I'm Vaarsuvius stands to steal my Ultimate Arcane Power, but he also stands to steal my Stepladder.

2) You don't have to unequip everything. Like, let's say I'm Roy. I definitely unequip the Starmetal Chunk and Glory, because those are critical to my ability to kill like eighty monsters at a time. But at the same time, I can just leave my "Gauntlets of Ogre Stench" or some other crappy one-face loot on, so anyone who attacks me has to take away that while leaving me with all the items that actually manner.

If I need schtick-boosting PvP insurance, I can always leave stuff like the Megaphone and Snacks equipped while all my kickass expensive monster-hunting gear is safely stashed away. And hey, Snacks in your stash is infinitely better than Snacks in Belkar's hands, right?

I'm not going to argue with you. If you're dead set to play the game that way, I'm not going to stop you. As apegamer says, though, it's not really in keeping with the spirit of it. You are interpreting the rule correctly, however.


One rules question came up, though: which loot cards can be exchanged for a schtick? For example, if I'm Roy, can I exchange a card with two Elan faces and one Roy face for a schtick, or can I only use a card with three Roy faces? And can I also use a card with three OOTS logos for this?

You must exchange 1-3 cards with a total of 3 or more of your faces distributed among them (minimum of 1 of your faces per card).

So, Roy can turn in any of the following sets:
--Roy, Roy, Roy (3 cards)
--Roy, Roy/Roy (2 cards)
--Roy/Roy/Roy (1 card)
--Roy, Roy/Durkon, Roy/Vaarsuvius (3 cards)
--Roy/Durkon, Roy/Roy (2 cards)
--Roy/Roy, Roy/Roy/Belkar (2 cards. Note that you are actually turning in 4 Roy faces, but there's no "change")
--Roy, Roy, Roy/Elan (3 cards)
--Roy/Roy, Roy/Haley (2 cards)

and so on and so forth.

EDIT: Completely screwed this up before, but the above infomration is now correct.

[Kumquat]

um...I am going to have to question that last part on your response, Giant.

1) I can't find anywhere in the rulebook that mentions that the loot you trade for schticks can't have other players faces on them, just that you have to trade loot that you drool over and have a combined drool factor of 3 (relative to you)

2) That way of playing would seem to make cards like the Dragon Hoard and Comedy Gold far less useful, as then you can only trade them in battle for help, but you can't trade them for schticks as they are drooled over by everyone, so you always have another player that wants it. Also, in a six player game you would barely ever be able to trade loot for schticks, as most loot is drooled on by multiple characters. I can understand not being able to give loot that a player wants to an NPC for help in battle, but not trading it for schticks hurts a lot, especially Durkon and Elan, who rely on loot for schticks more than the other characters.

Normally I would not question your word, but this seemed to big not too.

you changed your answer, so there is no reason for this post anymore...:smallsigh:

[Ferrinus]

I'm not going to argue with you. If you're dead set to play the game that way, I'm not going to stop you. As apegamer says, though, it's not really in keeping with the spirit of it. You are interpreting the rule correctly, however.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to play the game that way. I'd rather that someone who equips monster-hunting loot risk losing it in the normal fashion.

I was just unsure whether you were contradicting Apegamer's suggestion of a "you can't unequip loot that you equipped this turn" rule because you thought that someone cheesily putting on/taking off loot turn by turn wasn't a problem. Thanks for the response!

[Enaloindir]

I also don't remember reading the "trading loot for shticks" restriction the Giant mentions...
However, such a restriction doesn't seem illogical if you take the "trading loot for assistance" rules into account.

@ Kumquat: I would treat the OotS logo on Comedy Gold and Dragon Hoard as wildcards: If you trade them in for shticks, they represent only your own drool icons.


Enaloindir

[The Giant]

OK, yes, I screwed up.

I combined in my head the rules for offering Loot to NPCs with the rules for trading Loot for shticks. You can't trade Loot to NPCs if it is also drooled over by another player, but you CAN trade it for shticks. I think we had it that way in a previous version of the rules, and then dropped it at the last minute because it hurt Elan and Durkon (the primary users of the loot-for-shticks rule) too much.

I'll change my previous answer.