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Tehnar
2008-11-12, 04:44 AM
As the title says, could you suggest which powers and feats should I take with my fighter as I level. Currently lvl 1 and will gain a lvl soon, just need feats and powers for the next few levels.

Anyway so far:

human fighter
STR 20
CON 12
DEX 12
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 10

Feats:
Weapon prof(bastard sword)
Toughness

Powers:
Cleave
Tide of iron
Reaping strike

Encounter: Steel serpent strike (think will retrain this to passing attack)

Daily: Villan's menace

other party members: dwarf cleric, elf ranger(archery), human wizard

Can only use PHB.

So far the number of healing surges is sufficient, but durable and action surge will be picked in the heroic tier. I plan to raise STR and DEX in the future (at least until epic tier) and plan on going Kensai PP.

KKL
2008-11-12, 05:03 AM
Yuck. Ask your DM if you can reallocate your stats. Fighters definately do not need a 20 in their Str when an 18 does the job better. A 16/16/12/12/10/8 does a lot better for Str/Dex. In any case, this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1051822) and this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1080296) would be helpful for all your Fightering needs.

Charity
2008-11-12, 05:05 AM
Boundless Endurance is good, but not without a higher con.
Rain of Blows is great with a flail
Dance of Steel is a good sticky power.
Rain of steel, is top notch.
Unbreakable is good for a while, though it should be swapped out later.
Come and Get It is pure defender winsauce.
Thicket of Blades or Victorious Surge
that gets you up to Paragon
Feats wise
Blade Opportunist
Durable
Human Perseverance
Improved Initiative/Quick Draw
Potent Challenge/Shield Push - Both buff your Combat Challenge. Pick one, but not both.
Toughness
Weapon Focus

Tehnar
2008-11-12, 06:29 AM
Not so keen about retraining my ability scores.

Since i plan on using bastard sword, or heavy blades in general, DEX is important, and IMO 12 is all I need so I can get all the feats that support that.

As for CON, except for the number of healing surges this poorly synergises. A few powers, mostly healing, work good with CON but most are pretty minor.

However, IMO, STR, actually to hit, is very important for tanking. Aside from giving me the best Fort defence, and the best to hit in the game, 20 STR also adds nice dmg. I compared this build to a dwarf fighter (MC hammer build from gleemax boards), and found that it more then offsets hammer rhythm.

The difference in the ability scores that you suggested (assuming the other 16 go into CON, I dont think it makes much sense in DEX with heavy blades). the difference as a human is 2 healing surges and 4 hp.

Other things I have considered: 18 STR and 14 WIS gives the same att bonus on OAs as 20 STR and 12 WIS, with better dmg and of course more hit on your normal attacks. Also combat challenge is more potent that way.


Charity: thanks on the shield push tip, had not noticed that

Hal
2008-11-12, 07:01 AM
I'm going to toss my hat in for Human Perseverence. I don't know what the rest of your party looks like, but I'm betting you're going to be taking a lot of damage at the front lines, so you'll probably want any edge you can get against spellcasters.

Hzurr
2008-11-12, 12:56 PM
I'd have to echo that you might want to consider bumping up Con. In addition to the HP, it qualifies you for several more spiffy fighter feats (including plate armor)

As far as At-Will powers go, I'd recommend Cleave, Tide of Iron, and (if your DM will allow you to include your str modifier), sure strike.

Mando Knight
2008-11-12, 01:20 PM
You actually probably do need a high Dex--look at the Fighter powers with Weapon effects: Storm of blows gives your Dex modifier to damage with a heavy blade, as does Fangs of Steel. Not only that, but you'll need the boost to your Reflex defense--most melee attacks that don't hit AC are against Reflex.

Plate armor probably isn't the wisest feat for a fighter... scale is about as good, with far fewer penalties, and a heavy shield already provides a -2 check penalty.

The extra +1 to Fortitude, attack, and damage, though valuable, won't completely offset the value of an extra +2 Dex bonus--Blade Opportunist requires a Dex of 13, as do Combat Reflexes and Quick Draw, and they're in Heroic. Scale and Shield Specialization and Heavy Blade Opportunity take 15 Dexterity, Seize the Moment (free combat advantage in the first round of combat) and Defensive Advantage (Bonus to defense with Combat Advantage) take 17 in the Paragon Tier. Heavy Blade Mastery takes 17 Dexterity as well...

Also, the point cost usually isn't worth it. 20 in the main stat should be reserved for SAD characters, such as Wizards and (to a lesser extent) Swordmages.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-12, 02:16 PM
I guess you can live with that DEX. Since you're a Sword & Board, Quick Draw is of limited use (take Improved Initiative instead), Blade Opportunist is less important when you have a base +9 to OA, and you'll qualify for everything else at level 11.

Check with your DM to make sure that if you get a stat-boost the same level as a feat, you can use the boosted stat to qualify for a feat - otherwise, a 13 DEX is required.

Alright, here's your leveled build:
2nd: Unstoppable; Durable
Boundless Endurance only gives you Regen 3 when bloodied - hardly worth it, when compared to 2d6+1 Temporary Hitpoints. If you want, you can take Boundless now, and retrain it later when you have better stances available.

You only have 10 Surges per day; chances are you'll go through those fast. 12 Surges is much better, but keep an eye to retrain this for Power Attack if your DM keeps the Encounters Per Day low.

Also, do retrain Steel Serpent - you'll want more attacks with that STR, and with a 12 WIS, I doubt you're going to do much actual Defending.

3rd: Sweeping Blow
Combined with Power Attack (next level), you'll do +3 damage without taking a penalty to hit, to everyone in a 1 square burst. If you're going to be in the thick of the fighting, this'll be a nice combo.

4th: Power Attack
Power Attack will give you +3 damage for -2 to hit. Since you have an absurd STR, you'll be able to use this more often than not. If you decided to be a more Defensive fighter, then take Shield Push.

5th: Rain of Steel
An excellent stance. If you had Boundless Endurance, retrain for Unstoppable.

6th: Unbreakable; Human Perseverance
Unbreakable is just good. Even with only a 12 CON, being able to shrug off 6 damage an Encounter is better than your other choices. However, if you find that you're being targeted with a lot of Reflex and Will attacks, Defensive Training may be better, since those DCs suck for you.

You'll probably be seeing lots of "Save Ends" by now, so Human Perseverance is a nice choice. Action Surge is also nice, if you have a lot of Encounters Per Day (and therefore, lots of APs), and Improved Initiative is always nice too.

7th: Come and Get It
With Power Attack, that's a lot of damage. Plus, it sets up a nice combo for Rain of Steel if you want it. Reckless Strike may be fun too, if you can get CA, and Iron Bulwark is an attractive power too.

8th: Improved Initiative
If you didn't take it a 6, take it now. You're going to want to be able to move into position, and your DEX just isn't going to cut it. If you took Improved Initiative already, get Human Perseverance.

9th: Thicket of Blades
Combine with Come and Get It FTW. :smallbiggrin:
If you find yourself perpetually low on heals from your Cleric for some reason, take Victorious Surge.


10th: Stalwart Guard; Human Perseverance
This has been heavily errata'd, so look it up. If you find that you are usually too slow to engage in combat, take Into the Fray.

Human Perseverance is really important in Paragon - there are lots of "Save Ends" and they can really suck.

At 11th, remember that you can retrain a Heroic Feat to get another Paragon Feat. This is generally a good idea. If you took Shield Push at any point, retrain it for "Heavy Blade Opportunist" and use Tide of Iron on your OAs instead. In any case, take Shield Specialization immediately.

So, how's that sound? :smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2008-11-12, 02:44 PM
Power attack is a -2 to hit for +3 to damage.

Let X be your average damage without power attack, and P be your chance of hitting. Power attack is then worth it on average if:

(X+3)*(P-.1) > (X)(P)
~
XP + 3P -.1 X -.3 > XP
3P -.1 X -.3 > 0
X < 30 * (P-.1)



P X
.20 <3.0
.30 <6.0
.40 <9.0
.50 <12.0
.60 <15.0
.70 <18.0
.80 <21.0
.90 <24.0


Note that this is average impact -- power attack will have higher variance.

And the above is the cut-off point at which you get 0 extra damage for power attack.

If you have a 70% chance to hit, weapon focus (+1), bastard sword (5.5 avg damage), +1 weapon, and 20 strength, you are doing:
5+5.5+1+1 = 12.5 damage per hit, or 8.75 per attack.
With power attack replacing weapon focus, we end up with:
60% chance at 14.5 damage, or 8.7 per attack
not worth it. But with weapon focus, we end up with:
60% chance at 15.5 damage, or 9.3 per attack
or +0.55 average damage per attack from picking up power attack as your 3rd damage-increasing feat.

As a fighter, your best course of action is to balance your ability to threaten damage if they ignore you, and your ability to ignore damage if they attack you.

If you find bad guys are following your mark and attacking you, you boost your defense. If you find bad guys are ignoring your mark and attacking others, you boost your attack.

Tehnar
2008-11-12, 05:37 PM
Ok first thanks for your inputs all.

During heroic and paragon tiers I will be raising STR and DEX, so as of lvl 4 will have enough DEX to qualify for DEX 13+ feats and at lvl 11 for DEX 15+.

Human perseverance is a feat I want to take, it should help with survivability. However during the first two sessions, no one had to make a single saving throw (except to stabilize). My question is, during levels 2-6 are there many monsters that utilize powers that require a save? I know it depends on the DM, but just a general opinion is what I need.


The lack of plate proficiency is the reason I regret not having higher CON, but at paragon tier the increased speed of scale specialization might be more beneficial then AC higher by one point.

Sure strike vs reaping strike was a debate for me. The DM wont allow to add STR to dmg with that power, so it is mostly a anti minion power. Hmm I might do some spreadsheets to see how it compares with reaping strike. Does anyone know for sure if you have a bastard sword +1 do you, with sure strike do just 1W or 1W+1, also the same question regarding villain's menace. If so sure strike might be more beneficial at higher levels. Have to do the math.

At level 2 I will retrain steel serpent into passing attack, I found ssteel serpent of limited use. As for utility and feat, will probably take boundless endurance and action surge. While durable is high on my list of priorities. Using that stance during a difficult encounter could grant me enough hit points to save me a surge. Especially as I read it, a stance doesn't stop if I am knocked unconcious.

Sweeping blow will be my power for lvl 3. However as I am using a weapon 1h, power attack will give me +2 to dmg. Still nice, I will see if I will take power attack at 4, or a more defensive feat then. Depends on how the encounters will run. I agree that my will save sucks, but I dont think my refl defence is bad. Sure its not the best possible, but the party ranger has a refl of 15, and so does the mage. I think my shield is helping me out a lot here.

Also I plan on heavy blade opportunist, and shield push adds to my combat challenge (the immediate interupt against a marked target right?). I can see definite potential for this feat for stickiness.

So many good feats, so little I can chose. :)

Thanks again for all the input, much appreciated.

exodus_dragon
2008-11-13, 04:52 AM
Ok first thanks for your inputs all.

During heroic and paragon tiers I will be raising STR and DEX, so as of lvl 4 will have enough DEX to qualify for DEX 13+ feats and at lvl 11 for DEX 15+.

Human perseverance is a feat I want to take, it should help with survivability. However during the first two sessions, no one had to make a single saving throw (except to stabilize). My question is, during levels 2-6 are there many monsters that utilize powers that require a save? I know it depends on the DM, but just a general opinion is what I need.

Yes there are a few that do make you take saving throws.



The lack of plate proficiency is the reason I regret not having higher CON, but at paragon tier the increased speed of scale specialization might be more beneficial then AC higher by one point.


Plate armor really sucks compared to scale armor. I being a DM recomend my players not to take it. especially since most magical plate armor is only for palladins.


Sure strike vs reaping strike was a debate for me. The DM wont allow to add STR to dmg with that power, so it is mostly a anti minion power. Hmm I might do some spreadsheets to see how it compares with reaping strike. Does anyone know for sure if you have a bastard sword +1 do you, with sure strike do just 1W or 1W+1, also the same question regarding villain's menace. If so sure strike might be more beneficial at higher levels. Have to do the math.

thats odd why wont the dm allow the str dmg to it..doesnt make sense i thought it was part of the power...yes the bastard sword would give +1 hit/+1dmg...as do all magical weapons...also on a crit you add a bonus 1d6 per + to dmg.


At level 2 I will retrain steel serpent into passing attack, I found ssteel serpent of limited use. As for utility and feat, will probably take boundless endurance and action surge. While durable is high on my list of priorities. Using that stance during a difficult encounter could grant me enough hit points to save me a surge. Especially as I read it, a stance doesn't stop if I am knocked unconcious.

The stance should stop if your unconcious...but it depends on how your dm wants to run it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-13, 01:16 PM
thats odd why wont the dm allow the str dmg to it..doesnt make sense i thought it was part of the power...yes the bastard sword would give +1 hit/+1dmg...as do all magical weapons...also on a crit you add a bonus 1d6 per + to dmg.

It's not. Sure Strike is terrible by RAW, unless you really want to kill one minion. But... since you're using your weapon one handed, you only do half-strength on a miss, so maybe having a certified minion-killer would be nice.

In other news
- Yeah, skip Power Attack. I had forgotten you were one-handed - Weapon Focus is clearly a better choice.

- Your Reflex isn't that bad (10+1+2+1 = 14) if you take a Heavy Shield, and Shield Spec at Level 11. But yeah, your Will is terrible for a 4e Fighter - they usually have high WIS, and bump up their WIS. But so it goes.

- I recommend taking Human Perseverance late unless your DM starts hitting you with lots of Saves.

- Stances do not stop when you go unconscious, but Regeneration only kicks in if you start your turn with at least 1 HP, so Boundless won't keep you perma-alive. Regen 3 when bloodied means that when you are at or below half HP (so 16 at level 2) you regain 3 HP on your turn. I'm not certain how useful that Regen 3 will be to you. I do know that with only 10 Surges per day, you will probably be running very short on Surges if your DM sends you against moderately challenging Encounters (1-2 Surges per encounter, 1 Surge after every encounter adds up pretty quickly).

- Don't worry about Plate. Plate Spec doesn't stack with Shield Spec, so all you're getting is a +1 AC for a -2 Armor Check, which is lame.

- Miscellaneous bonuses are always added to any attack where you make a damage roll. So, if your Sure Striked with Weapon Focus & a +1 Sword, you would do [W] + 2. Note that if you Cleave with the same sword, you only do STR damage on your second target, because you didn't roll for that damage.

- My Build assumed you were a Striker-Fighter with a shield. In such a situation, you should spend most of your time well-forward of your party, with most of the baddies bunched up around you. Come and Get It makes this a very good combo, but to be honest, the Sword & Board doesn't usually go with this build (which I call "Whirling Death").

What kind of Fighter do you want to be?

Tehnar
2008-11-14, 11:52 AM
Got to level 2 last night after a battle with some scorpions, picked up durable, retrained encounter power into passing attack. Also picked up boundless endurance but did not have a chance to use it yet.

After the scorpion battle we (the elf ranger, the dwarf cleric and me) ventured into a old temple. At first we faced 4 zombie minions, 4 tougher zombies and some wight that kept shooting some magic at us and raising the tougher zombies back from the dead. The DM also made a mistake of thinking that resist 10 necrotic means that the zombies resist all damage except necrotic and radiant (which they were vulnerable to). That was a pretty tough fight and I had to use my daily attack. Thankfully those zombies dont hit very hard, but in the end that encounter cost me 5 surges.

We decided to press on, encountering some tough spider swarm, 3 zombies and a wraith, and the last encounter before we called it a night was some two ghostly warriors and the ever present zombies. Since the zombies had no longer resist 10 to physical, they went down pretty easy. I also got some bracers that give me +2 dmg to basic melee attacks. Pretty nice for combat challenge and OAs. I was left with 3 surges, the ranger has 2, while the cleric has 4 surges left. Thankfully the cleric and ranger haven't spent their dailies yet. On our next session I think we will press on without taking a extended rest. There was a big door and we are guessing the bad necromancer is behind them.

My tactics consisted of standing 2-4 squares in front of the cleric and ranger, preventing enemies from coming at them. So come and get it would be a great choice of a power for me, especially with my high strength. Also I found that ranged enemies such as whose wights have a really hard time getting away from me, or being effective at all. Usually wasting turns trying to get away or attacking me with their basic melee. Tide of Iron is a great power to use, and passing attack is really much better then steel serpent strike. So at level 4 I will probably pick action surge, blade opportunist or shield push. Considering the tough first encounter, 12 healing surges has proved enough, really the cleric and his healing words have been great in that regard. The current tactic we are using is me tanking the monsters, while the ranger and cleric pick of the ones closest to them. So far it works great.