[Optimization] Dispelling--Unconventionally

[Fax Celestis]

Was looking through Magic of Incarnum last night and reread the Witchborn Binder PrC. Second level has an ability in which you can create a orb of incarnum and fling it at an opponent, making it act as a targeted dispel. Your meldshaper level equates your caster level for the dispel check, and it also carries with it a +1 insight bonus on the check for each point of essentia invested into the ability on use.

Further looking through MoI reveals the Soultouched Spellcasting feat, but this provides an insight bonus as well, so that's out.

What are non-caster methods to increase your dispel check? I've found nothing in CAdv or CScn so far, but I may have skipped over something. I'm fairly certain there's something in PHB-II (a feat, I think) but I can't recall what it is or what it does.

The full intent of this, by the way, is to take four levels en toto of Witchborn Binder, and go the rest as either Totemist or Incarnate, with the intent of taking the Mage Slayer chain and some other anti-caster feats. Maybe--and a big maybe, as it drops meldshaping progression--is the Witch Hunter PrC from ToM.

Thoughts?

[Douglas]

The PHBII feat is Elven Spell Lore, and by a strict reading its untyped +2 only applies to Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

The Dispelling Cord from MIC gives +2 competence 5/day.

I think there are a few spells in some of the later completes that give bonuses on dispel checks, but that doesn't help if you're making a non-caster.

Master Specialist gives +1/2 levels for Abjurers, but again that's caster-only.

The Inquisition domain gives +4 untyped on dispel checks for a mere 1 level dip in Cleric, or you could look for a suitable PrC that gives a bonus domain.

[Fax Celestis]

The PHBII feat is Elven Spell Lore, and by a strict reading its untyped +2 only applies to Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

...shouldn't this apply, then, if the ability states, "as dispel magic"?

[ocato]

I'd probably rule that anything that applies to dispel magic applies to abilities that function as dispel magic.

As for your idea Fax, I like it. However, instead of pouring too much into the idea feat-wise, I'd try to flesh it out as an all-purpose caster killer. Take stuff like double-chakra (which I assume would let you double bind your heart chakra if you wanted), maybe the ones that let you dip essentia into saves (will being an obvious choice), and any of the standard Incarnum "win" feats I don't know about or remember.

I'm only loosely familiar with Magic of Incarnum (as you might have guessed), but it shouldn't be hard to out-fly, teleport, and grapple-pwn most casters, especially with the ability to dispel magic (grab a ring of greater counterspells too). I'd look into reach, though I'm not quite sure how you'd get it (displacer mantle?). Overall, I'm not an expert, but that's how I'd look at it.

[Fax Celestis]

That was the plan. Totemists get a lot of mobility and phasing abilities (Blink Shirt, Pegasus Wings, Displacer Mantle, etc.) as well as things like breath weapons (Gorgon Mask). I'm debating between being a Luddite and taking VoP (or am LE variant) or being less zealous and allowing myself to use magical items.

[monty]

Are you trying to make a monk that doesn't suck?

[Fax Celestis]

Are you trying to make a monk that doesn't suck?

No, that's the HiSB Monk I'm working on. :smalltongue:

[ocato]

Actually Fax, in a pbp game I'm DMing I have a totemist who took a vow of poverty variant we cooked up requiring the character to sacrifice their found treasure to a demon in exchange for power. Instead of one exalted feat per two levels, I believe we went with one abyssal inheritor feat (or something equally evil) per three levels. The character is pretty good.

[monty]

The character is pretty good.

You mean evil.

[ocato]

That's funny. You're funny.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually Fax, in a pbp game I'm DMing I have a totemist who took a vow of poverty variant we cooked up requiring the character to sacrifice their found treasure to a demon in exchange for power. Instead of one exalted feat per two levels, I believe we went with one abyssal inheritor feat (or something equally evil) per three levels. The character is pretty good.

I was actually thinking a draconic heritage path, going LE (so probably blue) and taking draconic heritage feats (and then convincing my DM to let activating my soulmelds count as casting a spell for some of them).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

...shouldn't this apply, then, if the ability states, "as dispel magic"?
Generally, no. "As dispel magic" makes the ability work just like dispel magic, but it doesn't actually make the ability dispel magic.

[ocato]

I was actually thinking a draconic heritage path, going LE (so probably blue) and taking draconic heritage feats (and then convincing my DM to let activating my soulmelds count as casting a spell for some of them).

Donating treasure to dragons in exchange for some of their power? That sounds an awful lot like a dragon's kind of deal. "You bring me stuff and I hang around napping on my ever-growing pile of lucre? Yes, please."

[Sinfire Titan]

Hint: Avoid Witchborn Binder like the plague. The same effects that benefit your dispelling abilities also penalize your meldshaper level to attain, which those abilities are keyed off of. They also offer saves, and require the enemy to be a spellcaster. Your enemy's CL will almost always be 2-4 points higher than yours (easily more, but that's the general range) which hinders your chances heavily.

Also, the very enemy you are up against can dispel and suppress your Soulmelds with ease due to the lower Meldshaper level. The PrC is nerfed into unplayability due to the losses it takes.

You're better off playing a straight Abjurer or Totemist. If you haven't read the Incarnum Handbook, then I suggest you do so (even if it is partially incomplete, the major parts you need are there).

[Fax Celestis]

Hint: Avoid Witchborn Binder like the plague. The same effects that benefit your dispelling abilities also penalize your meldshaper level to attain, which those abilities are keyed off of. They also offer saves, and require the enemy to be a spellcaster. Your enemy's CL will almost always be 2-4 points higher than yours (easily more, but that's the general range) which hinders your chances heavily.

Also, the very enemy you are up against can dispel and suppress your Soulmelds with ease due to the lower Meldshaper level. The PrC is nerfed into unplayability due to the losses it takes.

You're better off playing a straight Abjurer or Totemist. If you haven't read the Incarnum Handbook, then I suggest you do so (even if it is partially incomplete, the major parts you need are there).
I'm only planning on taking two levels of Witchborn Binder, so at most I'll lose one meldshaper level. Besides, the insight bonus from investing in the ability itself should make up that level difference (and potentially even then some, dependent upon my level and investiture).

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm only planning on taking two levels of Witchborn Binder, so at most I'll lose one meldshaper level. Besides, the insight bonus from investing in the ability itself should make up that level difference (and potentially even then some, dependent upon my level and investiture).

It still isn't worth it. Dispelling is sub-optimal for counterspell-tactics, and Iron Heart Surge does the rest of the job without need for a roll (and can be bought cheaply).

And, IIRC, the Witchborn Binder's Essentia cap is based on your class level, not your character level. I'd say for sure if I wasn't AFB, but I'm 70% sure it is limited more severely. A handful of PrCs in the MoI have that same limitation on them, which hurts some but helps others.

You are honestly better off leaving Dispelling to the Abjurer, as you have far better actions to take during combat or out of it. A Totemist can become one of the most deadly ranged or melee combatants in the system without multiclassing, and when they do they just get stronger (Barbarian and Warblade levels do wonders for a Totemist, although with the right build Monk levels can be made to work).

Incarnates, likewise, are far better suited to other tasks or using Magic Items that their WBL will allow (they have plenty of cash to spare, which is a nice benefit).

I'm telling you this based off of sheer experience with the MoI and statistics. Trust me, I wrote the handbook for the MoI.

[Fax Celestis]

That's understandable. I've played various different kinds of incarnum-wielding characters, and have done other theoretical builds with them (most notably, the Pauper of Smack), so I do know what I'm doing. This dispel thing is likely not going to be the core of my character, but it'll be a handy trick if I need it. Mostly the purpose of this thread is to see what options there are to increase a dispel check, whether from this or from another source.

And as for the Dispelling Orb ability, the Witchborn Binder gets 5/10 (every other level) meldshaper progression. WB1 gets it, WB2 doesn't but gets Dispelling Orb. And nothing in Dispelling Orb says it acts any differently than any other investing mechanism. Essentia capacity's based off of your character level, not your meldshaper level, anyway.

[Sinfire Titan]

That's understandable. I've played various different kinds of incarnum-wielding characters, and have done other theoretical builds with them (most notably, the Pauper of Smack), so I do know what I'm doing. This dispel thing is likely not going to be the core of my character, but it'll be a handy trick if I need it. Mostly the purpose of this thread is to see what options there are to increase a dispel check, whether from this or from another source.

And as for the Dispelling Orb ability, the Witchborn Binder gets 5/10 (every other level) meldshaper progression. WB1 gets it, WB2 doesn't but gets Dispelling Orb. And nothing in Dispelling Orb says it acts any differently than any other investing mechanism. Essentia capacity's based off of your character level, not your meldshaper level, anyway.

That much I knew, but see also the Spinemeld warrior for an example of the PrC-imposed limit. Thanks for clearing up my memory though.

A handy trick isn't worth two levels if a magic item does the job better. Case and point: Wands of Fireball are better for counterspelling, and the Iron Heart item for IHS is better for dispelling spells that are affecting you (as you should be hoping you are the only one affected by a spell if you need it dispelled, as you should be trying to be the biggest threat on the field).

Totemist 20 is one hell of an ability to beat though, and if action points are being allowed then it is almost default for a Totemist to go the full 20 levels. You can be a far better Mage-Slayer (or anything else) if you can get Flyby Attack+Manticore Belt+18 Essentia invested in it (even if it is for 10-14 minutes a day).

[Fax Celestis]

Point taken. Still, the concept is of a militant Luddite character--replacing technology with magic, but a Luddite nonetheless. "Arcane magic is an aberration unto The LORD" and all that. I'm looking into non-Incarnum methods to do the same sort of thing--Archivist/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer, for example, or Rogue/Occult Slayer/Witch Hunter.

[Sinfire Titan]

Point taken. Still, the concept is of a militant Luddite character--replacing technology with magic, but a Luddite nonetheless. "Arcane magic is an aberration unto The LORD" and all that. I'm looking into non-Incarnum methods to do the same sort of thing--Archivist/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer, for example, or Rogue/Occult Slayer/Witch Hunter.

Well, one thing to remember is that most methods of dispelling are usually magical in their own rights (all of Incarnum is certainly magical). The Archivist, the Wizard (Abjurer Focused Specialist or Conjurer if Cspelling is your focus), and the Erudite (spell-to-power) make the best anti-mages there could possibly be due to their wide array of spells.

Another option (if sup-par due to spell limits) would be either Duskblade or Factotum.