Endor Holocaust and other Nitpicking (Star Wars)

[Beholder1995]

I'm guessing there might've been a thread like this in the past... oh, well.

Anyway, I found these two articles while reading the webcomic Darths and Droids. I found them both rather amusing and read them through.

The Endor Holocaust (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html)
A detailed rebuttal to the Endor Holocaust (http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/files/endor/)

[hamishspence]

Yes- I do prefer the smaller size and am not fond of the idea that second Death Star was 6+ times diameter of first.

as for the Hypermatter theory- Expanded Universe info does tend to support it- suggesting the target hit by main beam has most of its mass shunted into hyperspace (hence the ring in Special Edition material)

That was the Death Star novel.

It fits with the relatively sparse debris of Alderaan, and provides easy explanation for the various oddities- the lack of damage to Endor in Expanded Universe material being one example.

Star Wars Tales does have an ex-stormtrooper bring up the theory, only to be promptly refuted by listeners.

[Oslecamo]

Both of them are wrong.

It's stated on a later Star Wars oficial comic that the rebels sucessfully disinitrigated all the remains of the death star before they managed to land on the moon, thus preventing any major catastrophe

[Beholder1995]

Both of them are wrong.

It's stated on a later Star Wars oficial comic that the rebels sucessfully disinitrigated all the remains of the death star before they managed to land on the moon, thus preventing any major catastrophe

But wouldn't the dust particle junk from the disintegrations still get caught in the moon's atmosphere?...

[Jayngfet]

Okay, most of t was sucked into hyperspace, the rebels blew up what was left.

[Kaihaku]

Think of the catgirls...

[Evil DM Mark3]

There is a reason that there is a trope on TVTropes called No Endor Holocaust (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoEndorHolocaust). True the physics might say one thing but what the real argument boils down to is how realistic do we want this film about phycic, telekinetic monks in space to be? The answer is not very.

In short there was no holocaust because such a holocaust would not fit the story. End of.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I can't believe anyone is actually arguing that those little ewok bastards should have lived, that's the amazing thing.

[snoopy13a]

I can't believe anyone is actually arguing that those little ewok bastards should have lived, that's the amazing thing.

I like the Ewoks.

Anyway, bringing in actual physics to a Star Wars discussion is a waste of time as Star Wars essentially ignores it with sound in space, non-newtonian space flight, the Force, etc.

[Sholos]

I didn't mind the Ewoks until they started being effective against stormtroopers. That's when my suspension got suspended.

[EvilElitest]

Think of the catgirls...

i hate catgirls, grrrr
from
EE

[snoopy13a]

I didn't mind the Ewoks until they started being effective against stormtroopers. That's when my suspension got suspended.

In Star Wars, the only people who aren't effective against stormtroopers are:

1) Jawas

2) Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru

3) Those guys on Princess Leia's ship

When it comes to shooting anyone else they can't hit the broad side of a barn :smallbiggrin:

[Mewtarthio]

In Star Wars, the only people who aren't effective against stormtroopers are:

1) Jawas

2) Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru

3) Those guys on Princess Leia's ship

When it comes to shooting anyone else they can't hit the broad side of a barn :smallbiggrin:

Prior to the Ewoks, how many fights had the Stormtroopers been in? I recall they slaughtered Leia's crewmates and completely overran Hoth. These were both direct assaults against heavily defended positions, and the Stormtroopers won. On the Death Star, they let the heroes get away. Their entire plan was to track them to the Rebel base.

[Sholos]

And you'd think stormtrooper armor could handle little rocks thrown from small teddy bears.

[turkishproverb]

Prior to the Ewoks, how many fights had the Stormtroopers been in? I recall they slaughtered Leia's crewmates and completely overran Hoth. These were both direct assaults against heavily defended positions, and the Stormtroopers won. On the Death Star, they let the heroes get away. Their entire plan was to track them to the Rebel base.

The cheif problem they had on Endor was Intel, actually. There was a whole book about it. Basically they got told the ewoks were non sentient.

[Talkkno]

And you'd think stormtrooper armor could handle little rocks thrown from small teddy bears.

Actually, the rocks never actually cracked any of the armor, and the rocks were far from small, Renegade Paladin has screens to prove it if interested.

[turkishproverb]

Actually, the rocks never actually cracked any of the armor, and the rocks were far from small, Renegade Paladin has screens to prove it if interested.

Good point. I noticed that before. When the rock is bigger than your head, it is a legitimate danger.

[Dervag]

I didn't mind the Ewoks until they started being effective against stormtroopers. That's when my suspension got suspended.My opinion is that they were relatively ineffective. They inflicted an initial round of humiliating casualties by using blunt force trauma to cope with the stormtroopers' armor. Then the Imperials' superior weapons and highly mobile AT-ST gun platforms were routing them. The Imperials would have won handily if Chewbacca hadn't hijacked an AT-ST and turned the tide of the battle.

Which is about par for what happens when primitive forces ambush highly advanced troops with vastly better weapons. The guys with the primitive weapons almost always manage to do some damage, simply because they were able to pick the time and place for the battle to start. But while the rocks and spears may win the skirmish, the high-tech weapons and heavy artillery will win the battle unless something very lucky happens or the disparity in numbers is transcendant*.

*As in, so big that the guys with the advanced weapons can keep shooting until their arms fall off from fatigue and not kill all their enemies.
_________________


And you'd think stormtrooper armor could handle little rocks thrown from small teddy bears.Those were not small rocks. Those rocks looked to weigh several pounds, and the ones that clearly did noticeable harm to the troopers were mostly dropped from a height of ten or twenty feet.

It's hard to design personal armor to make the wearer immune to blunt force trauma. A long-handled mace or a large stone will knock an armored man off balance. And those are the only weapons the Ewoks used against stormtroopers to any effect at all.

Also, in a lot of cases we see stormtroopers fall down but they aren't unambiguously dead. Their armor is not penetrated, and unless a horde of Ewoks swarm them and lever spears into the gaps in their armor or something, they will probably get back up.

If it weren't for the actions of the small force of elite Rebel commandos who had planned this whole battle, the result would have been a horrible rout for the Ewoks.

[snoopy13a]

My opinion is that they were relatively ineffective. They inflicted an initial round of humiliating casualties by using blunt force trauma to cope with the stormtroopers' armor. Then the Imperials' superior weapons and highly mobile AT-ST gun platforms were routing them. The Imperials would have won handily if Chewbacca hadn't hijacked an AT-ST and turned the tide of the battle.

.

The Ewoks managed to take out a couple of AT-STs with booby traps as well.

Another advantage the Ewoks had was the terrain. The dense forest negated the Stormtroopers' long range weaponry and gave the Ewoks plenty of opportunties to ambush them.

Perhaps, the prudent thing for the Imps to do would be to recall their forces to the bunker and have TIE Bombers use the Star Wars version of napalm on the forest.

The Ewoks are also very intelligent. They pick up on machines quickly as we see an Ewok steal a speeder bike and two Ewoks act as copilots for Chewie. Additionally, they coordinate among themselves and come up with fairly effective tactics.

Actually, there are examples of superiorly armed forces losing battles due to being ambushed in unfamilar terrain. The most famous would probably be the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest where Germanic tribes slaughtered three Roman Legions.

[Seer]

My guess is you could argue that stormtrooper armor is made very light, to allow for maximum movement and endurance. If the armor is light, then the impact of multiple rocks won't hurt, per se, but they would eventually knock you down. Which is what happened in RotJ, because they're meant to resist energy weapons, not physical ones.

[Talkkno]

*As in, so big that the guys with the advanced weapons can keep shooting until their arms fall off from fatigue and not kill all their enemies.
_________________



*Cough* Tyranids *Cough*

[Baerdog7]

I would hardly classify the Tyranids as "primitive." The more accurate statement would be that they do not so much hold advanced weapons as much as they are advanced weapons.

[Enlong]

I like the Ewoks.

Anyway, bringing in actual physics to a Star Wars discussion is a waste of time as Star Wars essentially ignores it with sound in space, non-newtonian space flight, the Force, etc.

Not just sound in space, sonic grenades in space.

Also, I have a limited grasp on the term non-newtonian. It makes me imagine deep space where the faster you go, the more like a solid object space becomes, to the point where you can't jump into hyperspace because you smash into brick-hard timespace.

[Talkkno]

Not just sound in space, sonic grenades in space.

Also, I have a limited grasp on the term non-newtonian. It makes me imagine deep space where the faster you go, the more like a solid object space becomes, to the point where you can't jump into hyperspace because you smash into brick-hard timespace.
The radio drama for ANH clearly states that the sound is artificially created to help fighter pilots.

[Enlong]

The radio drama for ANH clearly states that the sound is artificially created to help fighter pilots.

So... what, Boba Fett's Sonic bombs make use of this technology to both project a sound-field and make the big sonic boom?

Seems like it'd be a smarter use of time and money to just drop some big ol' spikey things into space. Or a "conventional" space bomb. Or just shoot him.

[Talkkno]

So... what, Boba Fett's Sonic bombs make use of this technology to both project a sound-field and make the big sonic boom?

Seems like it'd be a smarter use of time and money to just drop some big ol' spikey things into space. Or a "conventional" space bomb. Or just shoot him.

Where does it say here it is a sonic weapon?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Void-7_seismic_charge

[Enlong]

Where does it say here it is a sonic weapon?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Void-7_seismic_charge

I blame the 2:00A.M. brain farts. Mixed up "Seismic" and "Sonic"

[GoC]

Both of them are wrong.

It's stated on a later Star Wars oficial comic that the rebels sucessfully disinitrigated all the remains of the death star before they managed to land on the moon, thus preventing any major catastrophe

...
That's pretty ridiculous.

[YPU]

I supose it has its charm tough, x-wing fighter pilot “yes, we destroyed the death star! Now the emp o****itsgoingtocrashintothemoonwheresomeofthemainc haractersare.”

[bosssmiley]

Word of God from Lucasfilm says the Endor Holocaust never happened. But this is the Lucasfilm that gave us Jar Jar Binks, Watoo, Midichlorians, big NOOOOO! and Darth Greivus.

...

So, a moment of silence for the extinct space teddy bears please. :smalltongue:

(Jawas > Ewoks)

[Oslecamo]

...
That's pretty ridiculous.

How exactly is more ridiculous that:
1-Space psionic monks.

2-Building a super expensive giant space ship of death wich you really don't need to spread terror and that can be blown up with a well placed shot from a basic combat ship.

3-Stormtroopers sent to a jungle world whitout any actual jungle training.

4-Or flame throwers or any kind of fast fire weapon to mow down lsrge numbers of enemies.

5-Or air suport for napalm strikes against pesky teddy bears.

6- Stormtroopers don't know to close their own vehicles hatches when going into battle.

[GoC]

How exactly is more ridiculous that:
1-Space psionic monks.

2-Building a super expensive giant space ship of death wich you really don't need to spread terror and that can be blown up with a well placed shot from a basic combat ship.

3-Stormtroopers sent to a jungle world whitout any actual jungle training.

4-Or flame throwers or any kind of fast fire weapon to mow down lsrge numbers of enemies.

5-Or air suport for napalm strikes against pesky teddy bears.

6- Stormtroopers don't know to close their own vehicles hatches when going into battle.
1. Part of the premise.
2, 4, 5. Maybe their commanders are really really stupid?
3. We're not sure of this. It's most likely just plot power that caused that loss. And stupidity of course.
6. Maybe the stormtroopers themselves share the 20 IQ points of their commanders?

[RPGuru1331]

I love when people assume their knowledge of either warfare (Particularly against an underequipped enemy), or physics, or anything else, is supposed to be common knowledge.

[Beholder1995]

Word of God from Lucasfilm says the Endor Holocaust never happened. But this is the Lucasfilm that gave us Jar Jar Binks, Watoo, Midichlorians, big NOOOOO! and Darth Greivus.

...

So, a moment of silence for the extinct space teddy bears please. :smalltongue:

(Jawas > Ewoks)

And plus, it's not like Word of God's ever stopped people from thinking Belkar's chaotic neutral. :smalltongue:


~-~

Even if 'most' of the debris from the exploding DSII was sucked into hyperspace, I still imagine there'd be enough left to cause some considerable damage to the moon.

[Thiel]

I blame the 2:00A.M. brain farts. Mixed up "Seismic" and "Sonic"

Not that seismic makes any more sense than sonic.

[Beholder1995]

Not that seismic makes any more sense than sonic.

What is the difference?... :smallconfused:

[Zeful]

What is the difference?... :smallconfused:

Very little:
Seismic: Vibrations of stone or other ground materials.
Sonic: Vibrations in the air.

Note: The following definitions were done from memory and may not be accurate.

[GoC]

I love when people assume their knowledge of either warfare (Particularly against an underequipped enemy), or physics, or anything else, is supposed to be common knowledge.

While I have been guilty of this, two things:
A. Forget physics. Doesn't it just looks wrong to see a tiny girl block a massive tree without moving an inch and without having any powers that would cause that?
B. I believed that most of the people here are well educated and have at least a GCSE level understanding in every subject.

[Dervag]

The Ewoks managed to take out a couple of AT-STs with booby traps as well.Yes, but they only have so many booby traps. Each one would represent a major investment of labor for the Ewoks, and if an AT-ST doesn't happen to blunder into one of the booby traps it is completely immune to Ewok attack. Thus, I expect that the battle would have ended very badly for the Ewoks due to the stormtroopers' superior weapons and armor and the support of whatever AT-STs were not destroyed by booby traps.

I agree that the Ewoks were clever and resourceful, and that the terrain gave the Ewoks the advantage. But that is not unusual for a primitive force attacking an advanced one. The primitives are just as smart as the guys with high-tech weapons are; the problem is that the mind-blowing scale of the difference in firepower more than offsets the advantages of familiar terrain. It's possible to inflict casualties on an enemy that has machine guns and armored cars (or their Star Wars equivalents) using rocks and sticks. But there's no way in hell that you can expect to win a battle unless the guys with guns are horribly, horribly outnumbered.


The Ewoks are also very intelligent. They pick up on machines quickly as we see an Ewok steal a speeder bike and two Ewoks act as copilots for Chewie. Additionally, they coordinate among themselves and come up with fairly effective tactics.Oh, clearly. I mean, they're sentient, and the Rebels have been able to brief them on the fact that these Imperial machines are in fact tools (like their own hang-gliders), which can be controlled by anyone.

Though it's likely that before the Rebels showed up, they thought that the AT-STs were some kind of giant monsters unless they were even smarter than I think. That is not unusual for people without a technological civilization who see large vehicles like locomotives, airplanes, or steamships.
_____________


Actually, there are examples of superiorly armed forces losing battles due to being ambushed in unfamilar terrain. The most famous would probably be the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest where Germanic tribes slaughtered three Roman Legions.That's not the kind of "superior armament" I'm talking about. The Germans at the Teutoberger Wald had iron weapons and some armor of their own, and they were quite familiar with the tactics of fighting with Iron Age weapons. The Romans were better at it, but it was a difference of degree and not a profound difference of kind. So the Roman technological advantage was more like the advantage that, say, the Germans had over the Russians in WWII. It was significant, but most of it was in how the Germans used their weapons more efficiently than the Russians. So a smart Russian tactician could still plausibly expect to beat a German army of roughly equal size if he did things right.

The Ewoks are in the position of a bunch of spear-wielding natives charging Victorian-era colonial infantry with rifles and machine guns. And that kind of battle nearly always ends in defeat for the guys with spears, unless the numbers are totally in their favor.
_____________


...
That's pretty ridiculous.As demonstrated by the number of people who ridicule it.

[Oslecamo]

I love when people assume their knowledge of either warfare (Particularly against an underequipped enemy), or physics, or anything else, is supposed to be common knowledge.

Well, excuse me, but when I see an evil overlord who managed to get control of a galaxy by a massive military cup, I expect that individual to bother to teach his evil legions effecient military tactics.

Wait, it actually all makes sense now!

Emperor: Things are soooo boring now that I've conquered everything...Wait, I know it! We'll build a giant machine of death! that'll keep me entertained for a while! Start building one imediatilly!

Advisor(makes a lot of calculations):Sir, to build that giant machine of death, we'll have to heavily cut in all the other Empire budgets. The populations will probably start revolting when their living conditions are drastically downgraded. Also we'll have to fire most of our military veterans and reduce our stormtroopers legions training to "Noisy side of the blaster towards the enemy and pray". We can't even assure they'll be able to fight off the primitive indigenous populations of the planets.

Emperor:Don't care. Cut the budgets. Start building the DEATH STAR!

Advisor:Sir, even if we reduce all the budgets to the minimum possible to prevent the emperium from falling aparty by itself, we still won't have enough resources to install proper armor in that thing, and a single well placed shot of the enemy will blow it up.

Emperor: lalalala Death Star lalalalala

Advisor:Sigh... As you wish, Emperor.

[Zeful]

Well, excuse me, but when I see an evil overlord who managed to get control of a galaxy by a massive military cup.

Tea actually

[UnChosenOne]

"Noisy side of the blaster towards the enemy and pray".

Sound's like a proper way to teach the penal legion's on the grimdark future of Warhammer. Not proper way to teach army in a long time ago in galaxy far, far away...

[Renegade Paladin]

Yes- I do prefer the smaller size and am not fond of the idea that second Death Star was 6+ times diameter of first.
There's no "prefer" to it. Scaling from the planet requires that the second Death Star be at least 900 km in diameter.

[Mando Knight]

I actually support the larger Death Star sizes--I question the accuracy of the measurements of the trench width (there is considerable perspective distortion...), and the curvature of the Death Star II is such that the Executor could lie almost flat on the surface... and that ship has been measured time and again to be more than 17 km long...

[Beholder1995]

There's no "prefer" to it. Scaling from the planet requires that the second Death Star be at least 900 km in diameter.

Not according to the Detailed Rebuttal to the Ender Holocaust.

Which you should probably read... :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

it wasn't till quite late, that SSD size was finally confirmed to be 19 km long- numerous earlier sources make it much smaller.

DS1, interestingly, was upped in size- began as 120km in sourcebooks, most recent book ups it to 160 km.

DS2? one thing we do know from expanded universe sources- it was already being worked on just before Star Wars- prototype component of its superlaser gets into the hands of the Rebels. The two girls in the Mos Eisley cantina were involved. (disguised independent agents)

Given it took 19 years to complete DS1 but within 4 years DS2 was about 2/3 completed, the idea that both were being worked on, rather than one began after other destroyed, does make sense.

[GoC]

There's no "prefer" to it. Scaling from the planet requires that the second Death Star be at least 900 km in diameter.

It also makes no sense. The second death star would cost... *does calculations* either 10 billion star destroyers or 10 million super star destroyers.
Yeah, one star destroyer for every clone trooper to fight in the clone wars.

[RPGuru1331]

While I have been guilty of this, two things:
A. Forget physics. Doesn't it just looks wrong to see a tiny girl block a massive tree without moving an inch and without having any powers that would cause that?
What are you talking about?


B. I believed that most of the people here are well educated and have at least a GCSE level understanding in every subject.

You're probably wrong. And forget movie writers who were either educated in time periods with lower education standards or at best, have forgotten a lot of the legitimately useless stuff from their time.

And really, "They couldn't nuke the death star out of existence" is supposed to be unbelievable? People *now* think we can nuke the planet out of existence.


Well, excuse me, but when I see an evil overlord who managed to get control of a galaxy by a massive military cup, I expect that individual to bother to teach his evil legions effecient military tactics.

How are movie writers or moviegoers supposed to know efficient military tactics? Really? At least physics gets taught in school. Military tactics are never covered. You'll see military strategies historically employed taught in class, but never tactics, nor will any sort of method on choosing strategies be covered.

[hamishspence]

I suspect for most, military tactics info comes from wargames, library books, etc.

Though maybe there are some ex-soldiers on forums who might take issue with tactics used in Star Wars films.

[Telonius]

Clearly Luke used the Force to prevent it from happening, and pushed the debris out of orbit. Doesn't matter how massive it was. Size matters not, right? :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

"size matters not" is something of an exaggeration. Yoda seems troubled by hefty items and needs concentration to hold them.

Expanded universe did have a scene of several jedi funneling power to one, to move Star Destroyers all the way to the edge of the system. The one doing the moving collapsed moments later, dying.

[charl]

The Ewoks are in the position of a bunch of spear-wielding natives charging Victorian-era colonial infantry with rifles and machine guns. And that kind of battle nearly always ends in defeat for the guys with spears, unless the numbers are totally in their favor.

I seem to recall a certain battle in South Africa where a tribe of Zulu warriors armed with spears and animal hide-based armour managed to outright slaughter the opposing Victorian British soldiers.

It's only one battle among hundreds however, and the British usually ended up winning. My point is that while it's unlikely to win under Ewok-like condition, it's not impossible. The Ewoks might have been really lucky.

Still they probably took a lot of casualties.

[hamishspence]

Numbers, terrain, traps, etc. Hit and fade. Sneakiness. now if we'd seen more of that, Ewok win might seem more plausible.

[RPGuru1331]

I'm pretty sure we can claim the ewok win plausible based on the fact that they already won. I believe what you mean is incomprehensible.

[Beholder1995]

I'm pretty sure we can claim the ewok win plausible based on the fact that they already won. I believe what you mean is incomprehensible.

Well, it's actually kind of irrelevant, because the purpose of the thread is to discuss the articles linked to in the original post...

*desperately tries to shove thread back on track*

[snoopy13a]

B. I believed that most of the people here are well educated and have at least a GCSE level understanding in every subject.

Most Americans do not know much about Physics. For example, in New York State, physics tends to be taught in 12th grade. However, students only need three years of science to graduate and one of these years can be an elective.

Your average NY State student will take:

1) High School Level Biology (called Living Environment)
2) Earth Science which is a mix of geology and astronomy
3) An elective science

The better students will take High School Level Chemistry instead of an elective. Those looking to study the sciences in college will take Physics their senior year but the majority of students won't and will coast their last year.

In better funded school districts that offer AP classes, they'll have honor-tracked 8th graders take HS Level Biology which allows them to take earth science, chemistry, physics and an AP Science course their senior year. Some districts are eliminating earth science for their better students (a poor idea in my view as students should be exposed to geology and astronomy in case they want to make it a career) so that they can take two AP Science courses.

Still, I'd wager that over half of US High School graduates did not take high school level Physics.

Those who have taken any college level Physics are even slimmer. Some liberal arts majors take a non-major physics class to fulfill distribution requirements but the commonly taken class for science distribution requirements is Geology 101 (often called Rocks for Jocks). Additionally, some liberal arts programs do not require distribution requirements at all.

Some science majors take two semesters of Physics but not really the advanced stuff. I fell into this category as a Biology major but two semesters of Physics only really teaches one the very basics.

Engineering majors (I believe) take a few more Physics classes.

Obviously, the Physics majors take quite a bit and the Physics grad students and PhDs are the ones who actually understand stuff.

Overall, less than half of HS graduates probably even took HS level physics and relatively few college graduates even take one semester of it. Therefore, as a whole, Americans do not know much about physics.

[Renegade Paladin]

Not according to the Detailed Rebuttal to the Ender Holocaust.

Which you should probably read... :smalltongue:
I have, years ago. Sarli has no idea what he's talking about. I suppose I need to go into specifics, though; give me an hour to erm... clean up the standard counter-rebuttal. :smallamused: Your first clue is that one "R.S. Anderson" is credited second in the special thanks box; anything Darkstar is involved with concerning Star Wars is highly suspect at the best of times.

[Oslecamo]

And really, "They couldn't nuke the death star out of existence" is supposed to be unbelievable? People *now* think we can nuke the planet out of existence.


This annoyed me for years untill I entered university.

But still, the whole movies are based in really weird strategies.

This is, why would you build a giant machine of death if you already have by far the biggest baddest army of the galaxy and everybody cowers in terror at your presence?

Darth Vader could kill people by video-phone for Yoda's sake! Does the local governor challenges you? Just force-shock him some light years away and put some puppet in power to replace him, one that will serve your interests.

[GoC]

What are you talking about?
Was that post grammaticaly incorrect or too long?:smallconfused:

You're probably wrong. And forget movie writers who were either educated in time periods with lower education standards or at best, have forgotten a lot of the legitimately useless stuff from their time.


And really, "They couldn't nuke the death star out of existence" is supposed to be unbelievable? People *now* think we can nuke the planet out of existence.
I don't recall writing that...


How are movie writers or moviegoers supposed to know efficient military tactics?

A bit of thought should suffice.


*snip*
But I thought giantipters are supposed to be far more educated than the norm? And generally have studied several subjects not covered in the standard high school curriculum in their spare time.

[Flame of Anor]

*As in, so big that the guys with the advanced weapons can keep shooting until their arms fall off from fatigue and not kill all their enemies.

*cough* Zapp Brannigan and the Killbots *cough*

[Thiel]

And really, "They couldn't nuke the death star out of existence" is supposed to be unbelievable? People *now* think we can nuke the planet out of existence.


The operative word being think. In reality we don't. Not even close. We might be able to render it uninhabitable (and that's not a give) but we certainly doesn't have the fire-power to split it.



Another thing I find hard to swallow is the trap with the two tree-trunks that smashes an AT-ST.
Take a look at the size of those trunks. How on earth did they get those things into the air?
And before you start yelling at me about pyramids and ancient Egypt I'd like to point out four things.
1)They're in a rainforest. Granted, it means that the materials are close at hand, but it also means that you can't use stuff like rollers.
2)They did it practically over night. Just cutting the trunk free of branches would take several hours.
3)Take a look at the Ewoks. They are less than a metre tall and build like Winny the Pooh (Meaning they can't reach their toes without falling over.) How on earth did they manage to shift the damn things?
4)They build the traps almost on top of the empire base.
How do they manage to do that without alerting someone?

[RPGuru1331]

This annoyed me for years untill I entered university.

But still, the whole movies are based in really weird strategies.

This is, why would you build a giant machine of death if you already have by far the biggest baddest army of the galaxy and everybody cowers in terror at your presence?

Darth Vader could kill people by video-phone for Yoda's sake! Does the local governor challenges you? Just force-shock him some light years away and put some puppet in power to replace him, one that will serve your interests.

Who cares? It made for a good story, and a planet buster makes sense as a weapon of terror.


The operative word being think. In reality we don't. Not even close. We might be able to render it uninhabitable (and that's not a give) but we certainly doesn't have the fire-power to split it.
Yeah. I know. We can barely dent the crust. I said what I said for a reason. It's still pretty ludicrous to assume that Moviewriters should learn physics just to make you not-cringe at getting things wrong.

[Talkkno]

The Death Star was needed to break the powerful planetary shields that could off fleets for months at a time.

[GoC]

Yeah. I know. We can barely dent the crust. I said what I said for a reason. It's still pretty ludicrous to assume that Moviewriters should learn physics just to make you not-cringe at getting things wrong.
So requiring a little bit of thought and education from the average person is too much? Very well then.

[RPGuru1331]

Okay. Do the math that proves we can't break the planet with our supply of Nukes. Right now. Without help.

[Thiel]

The Death Star was needed to break the powerful planetary shields that could off fleets for months at a time.

The Star Destroyers did that well enough on Hoth

And besides, blowing the planet apart is just stupid. It denies you all it's potential resources. And before someone makes a snide comment about digging them out of the resulting rocks, I'll just say that slaves are a resource too.

[Talkkno]

The Star Destroyers did that well enough on Hoth



Err...Didn't they mention that the shield was too strong for a clean bombardment? And that was just with a crappy rebel sheild that they could get on short notice. Remember that it was the AT-AT's who took down the shield generator in the first place.

[KnightDisciple]

The Star Destroyers did that well enough on Hoth

And besides, blowing the planet apart is just stupid. It denies you all it's potential resources. And before someone makes a snide comment about digging them out of the resulting rocks, I'll just say that slaves are a resource too.

Not to be an uber-geek, but...No, they didn't. They landed troops who managed to sneak under the edge of the shield and blow the power generator. The SDs couldn't punch through themselves.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay. Do the math that proves we can't break the planet with our supply of Nukes. Right now. Without help.
Did you just demand he prove a negative? :smallamused:

[Thiel]

Err...Didn't they mention that the shield was too strong for a clean bombardment? And that was just with a crappy rebel sheild that they could get on short notice. Remember that it was the AT-AT's who took down the shield generator in the first place.


Not to be an uber-geek, but...No, they didn't. They landed troops who managed to sneak under the edge of the shield and blow the power generator. The SDs couldn't punch through themselves.

I know and that's entirely within a Star Destroyers mission profile.
If you want to think of it in naval terms, a Star Destroyer is a battleship, an aircraft carrier and a troop-ship all rolled into one.
As a matter of fact, one of the main inspirations for the Star Destroyer was the earlier Acclamator assault ship. As in a ship specifically designed to land troops.

[hamishspence]

there are formulae for gravitational binding energy out there. Even with direct energy to kinetic energy conversion (in reality impossible) all the energy of every bomb put together wouldn't move more than a tiny fraction of Earth's total mass to escape velocity.

that gives a rough idea of total energy to break a planet apart. Crust-cracking may be easier- work out energy expended in volcanic eruptions or really big earthquakes, compare it to energy of all those nukes put together.

May provide a basis for comparison- like- all the nukes put together are comparable to a big eruption, but thats not exactly stupendous.

For a ballpark figure, the 1964 Great Alaska Earthquake (8.6 on Richter scale, approx) is described as an energy release equal to 60 megatons.

Krakatau is described as 1000 megatons, Thera 6000.

Bury all the nukes about two miles down- set them off- big effects, but nothing like prehistoric cataclysms. How about the Yellowstone supervolcano, or Toba? Bigger yet.

[RPGuru1331]

Did you just demand he prove a negative? :smallamused:

No. I demanded that he do the math to supply us with the power of a concentrated explosion of all the world's nukes, calculate the energy necessary to break through the planet itself and its crust, and use that to calculate how far into the planet we'd break.

In short, I was asking him to do the math he was demanding of the moviegoer, because any old movie viewer could do it; By extension, movie writers should. And god forbid I ask him to prove that parts of the Death Star would have crashed into endor and ruined it, barring PLOT.

[snoopy13a]

Also, the Ewoks don't live on Endor. They live on the forest moon of Endor. This means that there is a planet (probably a gas giant or something) that their moon orbits.

I can't remember whether or not the Death Star was orbiting the moon or not but couldn't it be possible for the Death Star parts to crash into the planet Endor and not the forest moon of Endor*?

* Not that it matters anyway as the Death Star parts didn't kill the Ewoks :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

that would involve orbital velocities, and the tricky part would be knowing how big chunks left over from a fictional explosion would be.

also, it would need a consensus on actual size of the ship, and how much mass would be left over.

the EU "hyperspace shunt" does explain why the leftover bits of Alderaan don't look to be very big compared to volume of planet. It gives an in-universe explanation for the Special Edition Ring Effect (which isn't consistant with normal explosions. I haven't seen any in zero-G, but suspect they would not show ring.

[hamishspence]

Assuming gas giant planet, how big does moon actually have to be? Unusually high density could account for small size but near-normal gravity, and the presence of a giant humanoid (Gorax) suggests gravity is still a bit below Earth-normal.

if moon is smallish (titan/Ganymede range) and heavy, Death Star wouldn't have to be all that big. Shot of station in front of Moon may exaggerate its size a little- it is noticably closer.

[Dervag]

It also makes no sense. The second death star would cost... *does calculations* either 10 billion star destroyers or 10 million super star destroyers.
Yeah, one star destroyer for every clone trooper to fight in the clone wars.Assuming constant cost per ton of ship. I'm not sure how good an assumption that is- much of a Death Star's internal volume may well be solid material or empty space.
______________


I seem to recall a certain battle in South Africa where a tribe of Zulu warriors armed with spears and animal hide-based armour managed to outright slaughter the opposing Victorian British soldiers.

It's only one battle among hundreds however, and the British usually ended up winning. My point is that while it's unlikely to win under Ewok-like condition, it's not impossible. The Ewoks might have been really lucky.

Still they probably took a lot of casualties.The Zulus at Isandhlwana outnumbered the British something like fifteen to one. And at least some of them had guns.

I didn't say it was impossible for that kind of battle to be won by the spearmen, but the odds are so far against it that it's pointless to expect them to win. To make matters worse, individual Ewoks aren't as dangerous as individual Zulus, and stormtroopers (unlike redcoats) have automatic weapons.
________


I'm pretty sure we can claim the ewok win plausible based on the fact that they already won. I believe what you mean is incomprehensible.I don't agree; I don't think the Ewoks could have won that battle with their own resources.

Almost all the stuff we actually see indicates that the Ewoks are going to lose eventually. They inflict some casualties and manage to trap some of the AT-STs, but the firepower of the remainining walkers and the stormtroopers' blasters is routing the Ewoks. In the later part of the battle, most places we see Ewok infantry they are running away. With good reason.
_________


This annoyed me for years untill I entered university.

But still, the whole movies are based in really weird strategies.

This is, why would you build a giant machine of death if you already have by far the biggest baddest army of the galaxy and everybody cowers in terror at your presence?

Darth Vader could kill people by video-phone for Yoda's sake! Does the local governor challenges you? Just force-shock him some light years away and put some puppet in power to replace him, one that will serve your interests.The intention is that the Death Star be used if an entire planet outright rebels, or if it is part of a power at war with the Empire (the Empire doesn't actually rule every planet in the galaxy, not directly). In Star Wars, planets can have defensive shields strong enough to resist a long-term attack by warships of the Imperial Navy. To crack planetary shields in a hurry, you need a really big energy weapon- a superlaser. In which case you need a weapon platform big enough to carry a superlaser and to defend it against enemy fleets... the Death Star.

In short, the Emperor wants a Death Star for the same reason that kings in the 1500s wanted siege artillery. In medieval Europe, there were lots of nobles with castles. The castles were difficult to capture by assault or siege, so the king had limited power over a noble because taking his castle was more trouble than it was worth. Unless the noble became really troublesome, the king had to tolerate his bad behavior.

Once cannons were invented, a siege lasted a few days longer than it took to get the cannons in place because cannons could destroy a stone castle very quickly. Cue the beginning of centralized nation-states in Europe.
___________

Now apply this to the Star Wars galaxy. During the time of the Republic, the Star Wars galaxy was pretty decentralized. Individual planets like Naboo had a lot of local autonomy. Organizations like the Trade Federation which were much smaller than the Republic could still operate against the Republic's wishes. If the Republic really wanted to it could smack down a smaller power, but doing so was a lot of trouble and effort.

Palpatine wanted a centralized empire- he wanted to rule over the galaxy and not just to reign over it. But to do that, he needed a military instrument powerful enough to overwhelm any defense an individual planet could put up, and to do it fast. Speed is the key here- if a rebel planet can hold out for weeks or months, then the rebellion is likely to spread to other planets until the Empire has to fight and win another Galactic Civil War to bring it back under control.

Cue the Death Star.

The next step would probably be for the Emperor to demand that the Core planets (the rich ones he really cares about) dismantle their planetary defenses and rely entirely on the protection of the Imperial Navy.
___________


And besides, blowing the planet apart is just stupid. It denies you all it's potential resources. And before someone makes a snide comment about digging them out of the resulting rocks, I'll just say that slaves are a resource too.The Empire has a lot of planets. It can afford to destroy one, or even ten, as a warning to the others.

Reducing your enemy's territory to rubble and destroying the productivity of the land is a tactic many brutal empires have used before. Fear of having it happen to them usually will keep people from resisting you unless they're sure they can defeat you in open battle. It worked for the Mongols.

The Empire just has bigger guns to do its scorched-Earth tactics with. As in, big enough to scorch the actual Earth.

[RPGuru1331]

running away[/i]. With good reason.
The station blew up, right? The stormtroopers lost. I'm not saying they'd lose an extended land campaign; There's basically infinite troops throughout the Empire, compared to the ewoks on endor.

My response was phrased as follows.
*Cubs win the world series
"I don't believe it. It can't have happened."
"Well, it was improbable, it probably shouldn't have happened, and may very well be God having a lark. But it did happen"

Replace God with author. Hence why I said what I did ;)

[hamishspence]

Tarkin Doctrine "rule through the fear of force rather than force itself"

we don't really see what happens between the destruction of the shield generator, and the feast. just how big was this "entire legion of my best troops"?

[Beholder1995]

Tarkin Doctrine "rule through the fear of force rather than force itself"

we don't really see what happens between the destruction of the shield generator, and the feast. just how big was this "entire legion of my best troops"?

Isn't a legion like, 5,000 soldiers?...

[hamishspence]

Depends who's writing. I wonder if it was the 501st "Vader's Fist"? as some of the best troops in the empire, who stormed the Jedi Temple, and who stayed with Vader ever since, it might fit.

[snoopy13a]

Isn't a legion like, 5,000 soldiers?...

In the Roman Army, yes. In the Imperial Army, who knows? Granted, 5,000 would be the educated guess.

[Mando Knight]

My response was phrased as follows.
*Cubs win the world series
"I don't believe it. It can't have happened."
"Well, it was improbable, it probably shouldn't have happened, and may very well be God having a lark. But it did happen"

"No, that's not true! That's impossible!" [/Cardinals Fan]

The Ewoks probably wouldn't have won without the Rebel commando squad to back them up. Chewie was responsible for competently piloting the stolen AT-ST to destroy the remainder, and who knows how many troopers were killed by Han's blaster alone, not even considering the fact that Leia, Chewie, and a bunch of Rebel commandos were also present with firearms.

[Beholder1995]

In the Roman Army, yes. In the Imperial Army, who knows? Granted, 5,000 would be the educated guess.

Then again, if that were true, there'd have to be around 50,000 Ewoks for them to win... :smalltongue::smalleek:

[GoC]

Okay. Do the math that proves we can't break the planet with our supply of Nukes. Right now. Without help.
You mean without checking wikipedia, google or any books? Including my notes?
Sure thing.
In fact I won't even use paper/typing and will give myself one minute.
...
Done.
Final result was that giving the the earth a few 1 meter cracks requires an order of magnitude more nukes than we have. Here's my thinking:
The radius of the earth is somewhere in the realm of 6,000 km.
It has a density of... call it 1 ton/m^3
4*pi/3*6000000^3 is approx 4*216*10^18 approx 8*10^20 tons = 8*10^23 kg rounded to 10^24.
I then decided that 1 meter cracks was what you meant (the equivalent of a 0.1 mm crack on a battleship) and thought "a 1 meter crack through the earth would primarily have to overcome gravity and hgm should be a good estimate as it's only 1 meter".
Now, a 1 meter crack all the way through the planet is probably 1/3 to 1/6 the energy required to lift everything up one meter (you have to visualise the problem to see this). I'll just pretend breaking means making four cracks.
So the energy used is roughly 10^25 J.
The energy a nuke makes is roughly the matter-energy conversion of 5% of it's reaction mass, which I'll put as 100 kg for an upper bound on the small modern warheads. So energy is 5kg*9*10^16 round to 5*10^17. Say about 100000 bombs worldwide. so energy of roughly 5*10^22.
Huh. That's different from my mental answer. Oh well. Still ended up with a large nuke deficit.

Note: These cracks will disappear in less than a second.

EDIT: I just realised I think you might have confused me for someone else. I've yet to comment on the probability of the Endor Holocaust.

[hamishspence]

earth's average density is just over four tonnes per cubic meter. Core is much denser, crust fairly low (2 tonnes plus)

[GoC]

Assuming constant cost per ton of ship. I'm not sure how good an assumption that is- much of a Death Star's internal volume may well be solid material or empty space.

True, however there is a leveling off point. Once ships reach a certain size the benifits of mass production have already been used nearly to the full. Cost will of course continue to decrease indefinitely but it will taper off and thus
lim[size/cost,size->oo]=constant:smalltongue:

hamishspence: It was done in my head and I was underestimating things so that noone could accuse me of fudging the numbers in my favor.

[hamishspence]

Death Star novel described process of manufacturing Big parts- asteroid mining, huge smelters.

and yes- simplifying calculations for a "back of the envelope" estimate works- I'm not as good at the mental arithmetic. Background in astrophyics means its the overly tight asteroid belt that irritates me- makes me wonder if its a broken moon- ring round planet, rather than a true Belt.

[Dervag]

The station blew up, right? The stormtroopers lost. I'm not saying they'd lose an extended land campaign; There's basically infinite troops throughout the Empire, compared to the ewoks on endor.OK, we were talking about different senses of the word "lose."

The stormtroopers would have won the battle tactically in any case. There were enough stormtroopers with automatic blasters and armored vehicles that the Ewoks alone would have had virtually no chance of overpowering them all and taking the bunker.

However, the rebels did manage to use the Ewoks to win a much more important battle strategically than anything that could ever happen on Endor. The Ewoks could not reasonably expect to beat the stormtroopers (even the ones on Endor alone). But they could certainly draw away the stormtroopers while a rebel commando team with demolition charges blew up the shield bunker the stormtroopers were guarding.

So the Rebels won the war at Endor, and the rebel commando team won their battle thanks to the Ewoks. But the Ewoks would not have won their battle against the stormtroopers without support and information from the technologically advanced Rebels. Their attack was merely a diversion, and not a serious threat to the shield bunker position.

[Beholder1995]

Found it. Imperial legion (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legion).

I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Ewoks, even backed up by rebel commandos, even managed to hold out against 9,216 of the Empire's best stormtroopers. :smalltongue:

[Zeful]

Apparently the empire's best is pretty bad.

[hamishspence]

alternatively, what we are seeing is just snippets are larger battle- troops chase ewoks back (lured away from generator) aside from the few made to surrender by Han and Chewie, and its only the rebel forces returning from the death star attack that finaly break them.

[RPGuru1331]

Math
Fair enough, you can at least do the things you call for. I must point out though, that even respected education systems (Not US High school, US College) don't really require physics per se, and that requirement isn't one I plan on changing; I'll defend good familiarity with Math as a requisite because you will use Math regularly as a human, albeit not necessarily the complex stuff. Physics though? Not really.


EDIT: I just realised I think you might have confused me for someone else. I've yet to comment on the probability of the Endor Holocaust.
I'm relatively certain that, indeed, you mentioned that barring PLOT, it should have happened.


However, the rebels did manage to use the Ewoks to win a much more important battle strategically than anything that could ever happen on Endor. The Ewoks could not reasonably expect to beat the stormtroopers (even the ones on Endor alone). But they could certainly draw away the stormtroopers while a rebel commando team with demolition charges blew up the shield bunker the stormtroopers were guarding.
Right. And, it's worth noting, they couldn't win by my definition on their own either, as they don't possess the ability to do more then light structural damage to the shield bunker. But there's also not real proof that they completely won their engagement either, I think. Its' been a while since my last viewing of Ep 6, but I'm pretty sure the Imperials surrendered after losing the bunker, rather then stating outright that they lost to the ewoks (And obviously you'd want to keep ewok deaths as minimally on screen as humanly possible; Torching teddy bears is not going to be what you want viewers to take away from the movie). Granted, the imperials surrendering rather then fighting to the death wasn't a good show for their group, no matter how sensible it was in the long run.

[hamishspence]

when I was at school GCSE science was compulsary- though they split it up after I left.

A level physics expertise- expecting everyone to have that might be uncalled for.

[GoC]

Fair enough, you can at least do the things you call for. I must point out though, that even respected education systems (Not US High school, US College) don't really require physics per se, and that requirement isn't one I plan on changing; I'll defend good familiarity with Math as a requisite because you will use Math regularly as a human, albeit not necessarily the complex stuff. Physics though? Not really.
Give me pencil, paper and a few figures and I could have made that answer far more accurate. To within 1%.
Physics is used in all sciences and a lot in everyday life: biology, chemistry, the 20 odd different types of engineering, figuring out how to punch someone without having any actual fight experience, discussing sci-fi/action/adventure TV shows and comics, uinderstanding what damages a microwave, repairing a fridge, learning how your car works, not wasting lots of money buying products that use ridiculous "science", ect.
I also include the fundamentals of chemistry as physics because I did the two together and the former can be deduced from the latter.


I'm relatively certain that, indeed, you mentioned that barring PLOT, it should have happened.
Nope, check again. I simply said that the official version of why Endor shouldn't have been destroyed was ridiculous. Oslecamo then pointed out that Star Wars is far from realistic anyway.


when I was at school GCSE science was compulsary- though they split it up after I left.

A level physics expertise- expecting everyone to have that might be uncalled for.

Newtons laws of motion are GCSE or before, not A-level. Like I said, anyone posting here should have at least GCSE knowledge in every subject. In fact all humans should, I'll make sure that becomes law when I am world leader.:smallbiggrin:

[Terraoblivion]

All topics? That is quite a lot, especially if you treat individual languages as topics. But even if you don't there are such things in high schools and lower levels of education around the world as classic Japanese litterature, Greek architecture, civics tailored to apply to a multitude of different countries, geology, cooking and so forth. Learning all these things are way beyond what is humanly possible, humanity has simple reached a point where we have such mindboggling amounts of knowledge that what not to teach is as important a part of planning an education as what to teach. I mean just trying to teach history for all countries would be a full time education. That is without going into very many details, just the level you would reach after having it each year in high school and middle school.

[RPGuru1331]

Physics is used in all sciences and a lot in everyday life: biology, chemistry, the 20 odd different types of engineering
Alright, I've taken 2 Biology level courses, so I can reasonably tell you you don't generally need to know jack about it to operate. Maybe not to operate in a Green fashion, but definitely not about how to operate. It's only enhanced my life by giving me more to think about. And without significant chemistry or any engineering knowledge, I have managed to, in fact, not blow myself up. I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.


figuring out how to punch someone without having any actual fight experience, discussing sci-fi/action/adventure TV shows and comics, uinderstanding what damages a microwave, repairing a fridge, learning how your car works, not wasting lots of money buying products that use ridiculous "science", ect.
In order, you could just learn how to fight (As in, from a person, such as martial arts training), Self-sustaining (Let's put physics into media so that we can justify putting physics into media) and useless to boot, never had either a microwave or a fridge break on me yet, I'm going to take my car to a mechanic either way (I know how a combustion engine works; That doesn't make me qualified to fix it), and I've never needed physics to tell when Snake Oil or Wonder Items are fake.


I also include the fundamentals of chemistry as physics because I did the two together and the former can be deduced from the latter.
You were right to do so.


Nope, check again. I simply said that the official version of why Endor shouldn't have been destroyed was ridiculous. Oslecamo then pointed out that Star Wars is far from realistic anyway.
Mm, I see.


Newtons laws of motion are GCSE or before, not A-level. Like I said, anyone posting here should have at least GCSE knowledge in every subject. In fact all humans should, I'll make sure that becomes law when I am world leader.:smallbiggrin:
Stuff being required knowledge a nd stuff being known are very different things.

Also, I dig the superiority vibe this forum gives itself to the rest of the internet. Very amusing.

[Ubiq]

I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Ewoks, even backed up by rebel commandos, even managed to hold out against 9,216 of the Empire's best stormtroopers. :smalltongue:

There were never anywhere near that many stormtroopers at the battle though; a single platoon seems much more likely. Most of the forces were kept at the main facility in the expectation that it would also be attacked by the Rebels at some point; that's why the AT-AT we see in one scene isn't anywhere near the bunker.

As far as air support goes, the fighters in the area would have been assigned to the fleet and not to a secret base protected by a planetary shield.

[Thiel]

Also, I dig the superiority vibe this forum gives itself to the rest of the internet. Very amusing.

We are da brains

But seriously, everybody has at least a basic understanding of physics even though they may not call it that.

For example: Everybody knows that a car will either go slower or use more fuel if we attach a heavy trailer to it. Tru, we may not know the formulas, but we know that this'll be the same no matter which car and/or trailer we use.

[RPGuru1331]

We are da brains

But seriously, everybody has at least a basic understanding of physics even though they may not call it that.

For example: Everybody knows that a car will either go slower or use more fuel if we attach a heavy trailer to it. Tru, we may not know the formulas, but we know that this'll be the same no matter which car and/or trailer we use.

Yeah, but you didn't need a physics class for that, nor is it particularly difficult to determine that more 'weight' or mass requires more force, because most people have lifted (or attempted to lift) a heavy object. That's not remotely similar to knowing the force of the 'average' ICBM-based nuclear warhead, for instance.

[Thiel]

Yeah, but you didn't need a physics class for that, nor is it particularly difficult to determine that more 'weight' or mass requires more force, because most people have lifted (or attempted to lift) a heavy object. That's not remotely similar to knowing the force of the 'average' ICBM-based nuclear warhead, for instance.

No, but it does tell us that everyone knows physics of one sort or another and that we don't need the actual numbers to know if something is ridiculously wrong.
Let's take Aderaan as an example. When I first saw A New Hope I was about ten, maybe twelve, and even I could see that there weren't enough debris.
Now, realising that it should be impossible to blow up is somewhat harder, but that's mostly due to the fact that people doesn't realise just how friggin huge the Death Star is.

[stabbybelkar]

Actually, there are examples of superiorly armed forces losing battles due to being ambushed in unfamilar terrain. The most famous would probably be the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest where Germanic tribes slaughtered three Roman Legions.

this acually reminds me of one time when I was part of a reenactment of that battle. It was ruined though because someone at the reenactment steped on a hornets nest

[Dervag]

Found it. Imperial legion (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legion).

I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Ewoks, even backed up by rebel commandos, even managed to hold out against 9,216 of the Empire's best stormtroopers. :smalltongue:We have no evidence that the entire legion was in fact attacking Ewoks. Even assuming that every stormtrooper we saw was a unique individual and that we never saw the same one twice, we only see a few hundred stormtroopers, tops.

To me, it's more likely that the cohort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohort_(military_unit)) specifically guarding the shield bunker attacked the Ewoks, while the other stormtroopers went to Defcon Two or whatever and waited to see if more homicidal cannibalistic teddy bears were going to jump out of the woods and throw rocks at them.

Then the DSII gets blown up, one of those big lumpy Rebel ships comes hovering close to the surface and pointing turbolasers all over the place. It demands that the stormtroopers surrender, take off their helmets and give them to the Ewoks as party favors, "or we will blow a new crater in this little moon." End of battle.
___________


Right. And, it's worth noting, they couldn't win by my definition on their own either, as they don't possess the ability to do more then light structural damage to the shield bunker.Remember "throw me another charge?"

My impression is that the Rebel commandos brought enough boomite to at least temporarily disable the shield generator. I mean, that's a mission critical item for them. And it's not like they could beg a half dozen thermal detonators off the Ewoks.

Also, the shield generator bunker vanishes in a giant fiery explosion, which suggests that someone was packing some pretty serious demo. If the Rebels didn't bring it, then who did?

Of course, you're absolutely right if you mean that the Rebels needed a way into the bunker and that the diversionary Ewok attack provided that way. But I still think it's not true that the stormtroopers were defeated by the Ewoks in any direct sense. They were defeated indirectly, by jumping on bait they should have ignored.

[GoC]

*snip*
I meant "international" things such as the sciences and world history/geography.


Alright, I've taken 2 Biology level courses, so I can reasonably tell you you don't generally need to know jack about it to operate. Maybe not to operate in a Green fashion, but definitely not about how to operate. It's only enhanced my life by giving me more to think about. And without significant chemistry or any engineering knowledge, I have managed to, in fact, not blow myself up. I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.
Necessary? No. Helps if you don't actually know any biology? Yes.


In order, you could just learn how to fight (As in, from a person, such as martial arts training), Self-sustaining (Let's put physics into media so that we can justify putting physics into media) and useless to boot, never had either a microwave or a fridge break on me yet, I'm going to take my car to a mechanic either way (I know how a combustion engine works; That doesn't make me qualified to fix it), and I've never needed physics to tell when Snake Oil or Wonder Items are fake.
Those are actually some pretty good points. Self-sustaining is however the whole point. It never hurts to have more topics of conversation.
Basically you can sometimes substitute experience for knowledge of physics thus saving you time.


Stuff being required knowledge a nd stuff being known are very different things.
I've known this for almost a year now (I was primarily self-taught so didn't go to school) but keep forgetting to take it into account.


Also, I dig the superiority vibe this forum gives itself to the rest of the internet. Very amusing.
:smallbiggrin:

When I first came to this forum I mistook said vibe for actual intelligence (naive I know). Still, there are some very intelligent people here (Dervag for isntance).

[Terraoblivion]

So we should restrict ourselves to the sciences that are considered high school level somewhere in the world? That is still quite a bit of different fields of sciences, you wouldn't imagine how much information about rocks is required in Danish high schools for example, and then there are of course engineering high schools. And all of this is in addition to such large fields as litterature, history, language, politics and civics which are also common fixtures of high schools.

Simply put everyone cannot learn everything, not even at high school level, GoC. Not even when it is only things applicable across borders, though just what is applicable is a good question as well. What about Chinese history for example, it is the past of a fifth of the population of the world after all. Or what about learning about Scandinavian welfare states, that is a topic relevant to political discussion all over the globe. These are just a few examples of topics generally treated as national that could be argued should be international for the same reasons that American history and American politics are taught in quite a few countries. There are countless such topics merely within the field of history and people cannot learn them all. The world just has too much knowledge to learn it all at a basic level, so what is important requires choice. So why is it that physics specifically is one of those topics everyone should know?

[GoC]

*snip*
You're very good at convincing.:smalleek:

So why is it that physics specifically is one of those topics everyone should know?
Well that happens to be one of the few topics that are universal. Newtonian mechanics+the basics of EM forces+what is gravity should be enough. From that most physical phenomena can be deduced.

[RPGuru1331]

I meant "international" things such as the sciences and world history/geography.
World history? Dude, that's.. do you realize that even getting a high school knowledge of every segment of the world would be a full time high school curriculum? If humans were immortal, I'd give you a lot of this, but we've got limited time. And that's not counting the sciences (I think the Scientific Method should be required, but trust me, required knowledge is not necessarily well enough known knowledge). Geography, yes, that actually ought to be taught to a degree.



Necessary? No. Helps if you don't actually know any biology? Yes.
It's funny, the biology hasn't really helped me either.



Those are actually some pretty good points. Self-sustaining is however the whole point. It never hurts to have more topics of conversation.
But that's a pretty crappy reason to do a bootload of work in making your work operate off of physics and the like just to make an incredibly tiny subsection of people happy (If even, since you can do a lot of work and still pull a Dan Brown inadvertently). That's like saying every author should insert a lot of 'meaning' into their works just so the lit majors have something to do. It's a stupid reason to do anything, as a writer.


:smallbiggrin:

When I first came to this forum I mistook said vibe for actual intelligence (naive I know). Still, there are some very intelligent people here (Dervag for isntance).

Dervag seems like a pretty cool guy. His presence doesn't really make the whole forum suddenly super smart or anything.

[GoC]

World history? Dude, that's.. do you realize that even getting a high school knowledge of every segment of the world would be a full time high school curriculum? If humans were immortal, I'd give you a lot of this, but we've got limited time. And that's not counting the sciences (I think the Scientific Method should be required, but trust me, required knowledge is not necessarily well enough known knowledge). Geography, yes, that actually ought to be taught to a degree.
Yeah, I realise history probably cannot be taught in a world sense. However what about a high school history course that includes just a few things such as WW2, the birthplaces of civilization and a few other moments that resulted in a significant shift in human society (such as the industrial relovution)?


But that's a pretty crappy reason to do a bootload of work in making your work operate off of physics and the like just to make an incredibly tiny subsection of people happy (If even, since you can do a lot of work and still pull a Dan Brown inadvertently). That's like saying every author should insert a lot of 'meaning' into their works just so the lit majors have something to do. It's a stupid reason to do anything, as a writer.
Remember what Thiel said? That all people have an innate type of "physics" so it's not a tiny percentage, it's more or less everyone.
And seriously, "a boatload of work" to remove inconsistencies?! Try five minutes.


Dervag seems like a pretty cool guy. His presence doesn't really make the whole forum suddenly super smart or anything.
Uhh... that's exactly what I said.:smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

my history course was specifics not general- my enthusiastic reading out of school helped, but its far from full coverage. Wild West, Galen to Harvey medical history, etc seem fairly obscure for high school.

[RPGuru1331]

Remember what Thiel said? That all people have an innate type of "physics" so it's not a tiny percentage, it's more or less everyone.
And seriously, "a boatload of work" to remove inconsistencies?! Try five minutes.
Uh, thiel was talking about stuff everyone knows and will take into account. You're talking about crap people need to do the math for. They're different things.

[hamishspence]

maybe not so much math as "general knowledge" mostly culled from media- Volcanos are in the thousand megaton range- and we don't have that many atom bombs compared to volcanoes. Or, a 10 mile wide aggregate of metal will turn the ecosystem to a wreck, so leftovers from a Death Star Must be much less than that if "victory feasts" are to be plausible.

[Egiam]

I like the Ewoks.

Anyway, bringing in actual physics to a Star Wars discussion is a waste of time as Star Wars essentially ignores it with sound in space, non-newtonian space flight, the Force, etc.


Yup. (go Ewoks! :smallbiggrin:)

[hamishspence]

a worrying amount of space-set scenes do, even those supposedly set in real world.

Photon torpedos are apparently fusion warheads. So they do sometimes use real-world concepts, at least.

[Beholder1995]

a worrying amount of space-set scenes do, even those supposedly set in real world.

Photon torpedos are apparently fusion warheads. So they do sometimes use real-world concepts, at least.

But what does nuclear fusion have to do with protons?... :smalltongue:

[Terraoblivion]

GoC, i am a historian, i can assure you that there are no such things as a set of major events that you can boil history down to and hope to actually teach anything important. Birthplaces of civilization alone is a major topic, especially since unlike what high school teachers love to tell us there was no such thing as a few ancestral civilizations everything else came from. European culture is not something about there being some weird guys around and then the Greek came and created it for us. Knowing about the birthplaces of civilization would also be quite useless as it would teach us nothing about how the world today came to be the way it is.

Major events are no less of a profusion. I mean i doubt anybody anywhere in the world will disagree that the industrial revolution and the second world war should be on the list. Beyond that it grows highly sketchy, however. Many people would say the renaissance, but not only does that mostly apply to Europe the standard version of the renaissance is flat-out wrong, people can't even agree on where and when it was. On the other hand few people would bother saying anything about the Song revolution of China despite it being one of the most important periods in the cultural development of China and by extension those areas in contact with China at the time. And lets not even get started on all the different events of the 20th century that seems important, even without the second world war there is just about everything from German hyperinflation in the first half of the 1920s to the worsening of relations between Israelis and Palestinians following the murder of Yitzhak Rabin to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Any normative set of history information everyone should know would be incapable of equal relevance to everyone, it would also ensure that only some stories and some versions of them would be told. Not to mention that the decision of what parts of history were the important once would shape the perception of history among those taught. More than anything else it would become a propaganda tool, even if it was not intended like that simply by the nature of one version of what is relevant is the one that would be taught.

[hamishspence]

sorry, make that protons. Photons is in star trek- anti-matter, I think.

Proton-proton fusion exists, but I'm not sure if warheads use it. All atoms have protons in them hydrongen ones are protons with single electrons, so in that sense a hydrogen fusion warhead could be called a "proton torpedo"

[Thiel]

sorry, make that protons. Photons is in star trek- anti-matter, I think.

Proton-proton fusion exists, but I'm not sure if warheads use it. All atoms have protons in them hydrongen ones are protons with single electrons, so in that sense a hydrogen fusion warhead could be called a "proton torpedo"

Of course then they go and make them capable of 90 degrees turns.:smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

hmm- homing torpedo. One with very very good maneuvering jets. then there is those "repulsorlifts" that ships, even little carrying plates, have.

Which raises question- how did Red Leader manage to miss?

Or, Luke "use the force" involved sudden, instinctive TK to change direction al last minute. to do it properly and conciously needs more training.

[GoC]

Uh, thiel was talking about stuff everyone knows and will take into account. You're talking about crap people need to do the math for. They're different things.
Your tone has been rather hostile when talking to me. Could you please change it?

You don't need maths to tell that Berserker (16 ft talk super strong giant wielding a massive slab of stone) hitting Sabre (5ft tall thin girl) horrizontaly should send the latter flying.

[hamishspence]

Movie Physics- the world where firing a big gun sends firer backwards (or bullet hurls target backward) even when conservation of momentum would forbid it.

[Thiel]

hmm- homing torpedo. One with very very good maneuvering jets. then there is those "repulsorlifts" that ships, even little carrying plates, have.
This (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/31/Protontorpedo.jpg) is a picture of a proton torpedo. There's no jets, and beside, I doubt you'd be able to fit a powerful enough thruster onto an object so small.


Or, Luke "use the force" involved sudden, instinctive TK to change direction al last minute. to do it properly and conciously needs more training.

Seeing how the entire attack plan revolved around the trench run that can't be it.

[hamishspence]

"thats impossible, even for a computer" and Red leader missing when computer said fire. Risky, desperate gamble- Sounds like Rebel thing.

Episode 3 shows some torpedoes, at least, are homers.

[Thiel]

"thats impossible, even for a computer" and Red leader missing when computer said fire. Risky, desperate gamble- Sounds like Rebel thing.

Episode 3 shows some torpedoes, at least, are homers.

Oh they definitely are, I just said that they didn't use reaction drives to manoeuvre.

[hamishspence]

repulsorlift, maybe. does all the work of a jet, but better, with no visible exhaust.

[Terraoblivion]

I am not entirely certain that physics, at least not in any conventional sense, applies to magically empowered gestalts of human mythology. The hierarchy of who is the most empowered by the fame of their story and to a lesser extend what magic they can acquire is what matters. And in that regard, even stuck with Shirou, Saber is leaps and bounds above Berzerker in that regard. So while you would be absolutely right had they been truly corporeal beings working based on the laws of nature you would be utterly correct, they aren't. They are magical beings working based on the laws of mythology and the laws of magic as they are in the nasuverse, it is not like magic doesn't have its own limitations in it.

[GoC]

I am not entirely certain that physics, at least not in any conventional sense, applies to magically empowered gestalts of human mythology. The hierarchy of who is the most empowered by the fame of their story and to a lesser extend what magic they can acquire is what matters. And in that regard, even stuck with Shirou, Saber is leaps and bounds above Berzerker in that regard. So while you would be absolutely right had they been truly corporeal beings working based on the laws of nature you would be utterly correct, they aren't. They are magical beings working based on the laws of mythology and the laws of magic as they are in the nasuverse, it is not like magic doesn't have its own limitations in it.

They also work based on the laws of biology because she has to eat. Surely eating is less fundamental than convservation of momentum? And "ignores conservation of momentum" isn't on her list of powers.
Anyway, that was just an example. This is practically a trope in large vs. small.

[RPGuru1331]

Your tone has been rather hostile when talking to me. Could you please change it?
I'll pass, since incredulity and hostility aren't quite the same thing.


You don't need maths to tell that Berserker (16 ft talk super strong giant wielding a massive slab of stone) hitting Sabre (5ft tall thin girl) horrizontaly should send the latter flying.

Oh, is that what you were talking about on page 2 or so with the five foot girl and the tree? A cursory glance at Wikipedia informs me that we're discussing ghosts. Powered by magic. The ghost of Heracles and the ghost of King Arthur, respectively. And you're complaining that magic ghosts of a demigod and a fae-blessed warrior aren't following the laws of physics? REALLY?

[Terraoblivion]

The reason she has to eat is because she doesn't get magical power from Shirou. It is not a biological need that she have. Also remember that myths frequently ignore conservation of momentum, but eating is rarely omitted entirely. That kinda matters more to what she need than what your science teacher says.

[hamishspence]

as sci-fi (or fantasy disguised as sci-fi) it matters more to Star Wars. if someone who isn't a jedi takes a hit that should have mushed them, there will be raised eyebrows from fans. Though its not unique to sci-fi- many forms of fiction bend "the rules"

[Artemician]

Oh, is that what you were talking about on page 2 or so with the five foot girl and the tree? A cursory glance at Wikipedia informs me that we're discussing ghosts. Powered by magic. The ghost of Heracles and the ghost of King Arthur, respectively. And you're complaining that magic ghosts of a demigod and a fae-blessed warrior aren't following the laws of physics? REALLY?

Having watched the show in question, I can cheerfully and with great confidence, say QFT.

Fate/Stay Night and Logic are not good bedfellows. Let it rest... let it rest.

[hamishspence]

Yes, if arguments about "realism" are to be made, should focus on things that really ought to be more realistic. Ideally not matters of Force.

Leia crumpling what looks like a steel girder in her hands, in the garbage masher. Still, thats more bad effects than bad in-universe physics.

[Thiel]

Yes, if arguments about "realism" are to be made, should focus on things that really ought to be more realistic. Ideally not matters of Force.
But where's the fun in that?


Leia crumpling what looks like a steel girder in her hands, in the garbage masher. Still, that's more bad effects than bad in-universe physics.

She did? I hadn't noticed. O goodie, now I have an excuse to see it again.

Also, another thing that's been bothering me, how the hell did Leia manage to strangle Jabba the Hutt? I mean look at him, he must have a cardiovascular system the size of a small country.

[hamishspence]

it was on yesterday.

Hutt biology is pretty odd- not only do they look like slugs, they are very like slugs- though I think they are gender-changers rather than true hermaphrodites. And they are very tough.

[GoC]

I'll pass, since incredulity and hostility aren't quite the same thing.
You're right, what you're doing is the written equivalent of eyerolling. Something most people find annoying or insulting.
You're new here so I should tell you: On this board you're supposed to respect people and their ideas no matter how ridiculous you may find them.


Oh, is that what you were talking about on page 2 or so with the five foot girl and the tree? A cursory glance at Wikipedia informs me that we're discussing ghosts. Powered by magic. The ghost of Heracles and the ghost of King Arthur, respectively. And you're complaining that magic ghosts of a demigod and a fae-blessed warrior aren't following the laws of physics? REALLY?
No, I'm complaining that
"Ignores conservation of momentum" isn't on her list of powers.
and as such real world rules/physics should apply. They always should unless otherwise stated.
And no, they're not what are normally considered ghosts, ghosts are intangible while these things had very real bodies, blood, limbs, hair, ect. and bleed when stabbed.
Also:

Anyway, that was just an example. This is practically a trope in large vs. small.


The reason she has to eat is because she doesn't get magical power from Shirou. It is not a biological need that she have. Also remember that myths frequently ignore conservation of momentum, but eating is rarely omitted entirely.
So... eating gives her magical powers? That seems very implausable.
Myths frequently ignore common sense as well, something that could indicate why not many people read Beowulf's epics (at least before the film came out).


That kinda matters more to what she need than what your science teacher says.
Sometimes I think people are deliberately trying to piss me off. "Science teacher"? So I'm an 8th grader instead of a university student?
Also what does this have to do with what some teacher says? This is what we observe: What we observe in our day-to-day lives tells us that people (and people sized objects) get thrown about when whacked with much larger objects.

[Oslecamo]

Myths frequently ignore common sense as well, something that could indicate why not many people read Beowulf's epics (at least before the film came out).


Or perhaps because it's a really old story whitout any associated temple/treasure that also never got many publicity untill the movie.

This is, the greek myths got carried back and forth by the Romans by Europe and Asia.
Egyptians were all the rage when the gold filled tombs were discovered.
King Artur was carried away when the English started to become quite a powerfull expanding nation.

Nevermind, the above are myths actually filled with plenty of common sense. Like "don't trust in gifts from your enemies" or "Don't go sleeping with every pretty woman that appears in your way".

[RPGuru1331]

You're new here so I should tell you: On this board you're supposed to respect people and their ideas no matter how ridiculous you may find them.
I've been looking at this board for about a month or so, and if that's how it's 'supposed' to be, you really need to put a sign somewhere. I've seen enough respect for ideas and people as I stereotypically would find in New York. Plenty of not-insulting-them, but very little respect. The rules, in any case, have very little protection for ideas.


No, I'm complaining that X
and as such real world rules/physics should apply. They always should unless otherwise stated.
Its a demigod and a fae-changed warrior. Two of the latter, actually, having looked over the cast list. Shouldn't you have bigger problems with Sasaki Kojiro breaking reality without the aid of magic? Seriously, you're complaining that ghosts aren't following physics. Even as a general complaint, it stops applying here; It'd be like complaining that the laws of physics don't carry over in the world of .hack, where they're inside a video game.


And no, they're not what are normally considered ghosts, ghosts are intangible while these things had very real bodies, blood, limbs, hair, ect. and bleed when stabbed.
They're labelled Astral Entities. They're pretty clearly not behaving like humans.


Sometimes I think people are deliberately trying to piss me off. "Science teacher"? So I'm an 8th grader instead of a university student?
Also what does this have to do with what some teacher says? This is what we observe: What we observe in our day-to-day lives tells us that people (and people sized objects) get thrown about when whacked with much larger objects.

On a personal level, I only call professors professors to their face. It's the same thing, really, but with a better title. Like when you call a secretary an administrative assistant. At any rate, *Not people*. Not even living things, since they live off of magic. Why not find a complaint in something that should actually operate off of physics, rather then a story about the magic ghosts of legends? And try something that is less requisite of physics knowledge.

[GoC]

I've been looking at this board for about a month or so, and if that's how it's 'supposed' to be, you really need to put a sign somewhere. I've seen enough respect for ideas and people as I stereotypically would find in New York. Plenty of not-insulting-them, but very little respect. The rules, in any case, have very little protection for ideas.
Check more or less every red-text warning in a thread on this board. Or ask Roland.


Its a demigod and a fae-changed warrior. Two of the latter, actually, having looked over the cast list. Shouldn't you have bigger problems with Sasaki Kojiro breaking reality without the aid of magic?
To me at least it was fairly obvious that he was using magic.


Seriously, you're complaining that ghosts aren't following physics. Even as a general complaint, it stops applying here; It'd be like complaining that the laws of physics don't carry over in the world of .hack, where they're inside a video game.
Not ghosts. They have physical bodies.
A game of .hack doesn't use physics due to the necessity of simplifying and abstracting things, either for playability or console/PC constraints.


They're labelled Astral Entities. They're pretty clearly not behaving like humans.
Seems to me like they are behaving as humans. All the above plus very human emotions. What makes them different from superheroes apart from their name?


At any rate, *Not people*. Not even living things, since they live off of magic.
A person is any sapient being. Living things I'll grant you.


Why not find a complaint in something that should actually operate off of physics, rather then a story about the magic ghosts of legends? And try something that is less requisite of physics knowledge.
I'm using Fate/Stay Night because while I've seen numerous other instances of this they were all in small clips (I've watched very little anime but many clips) instead of actual episodes so I don't remember their names. However, for a better example how about Advent Children? Not an anime but close enough.
So you require physics knowledge to make observations about the universe?

What we observe in our day-to-day lives tells us that people (and people sized objects) get thrown about when whacked with much larger objects.


Also remember that myths frequently ignore conservation of momentum, but eating is rarely omitted entirely.
I just realised that this is untrue. AFAIK myths (the greek myths, the arthurian myths are the only ones I'm familiar with) don't have any explicit violations of conservation of momentum.

[Dervag]

But where's the fun in that?



She did? I hadn't noticed. O goodie, now I have an excuse to see it again.

Also, another thing that's been bothering me, how the hell did Leia manage to strangle Jabba the Hutt? I mean look at him, he must have a cardiovascular system the size of a small country.Handwave:

It is not uncommon for Force adepts, even subconscious ones, to tap into the Force for physical augmentation. Anakin is really strong, and even before he gets Jedi training he's using the Force to bolster his reflexes to the point where he can win podraces that other humans can't even enter. Obi-Wan Kenobi can take a punch from General Grievous, who's strong enough to dent starfighter hulls.

Since Leia is "the other Skywalker child," and is presumably at least roughly as powerful as her brother and father, I don't think it's hard to believe.

[Oslecamo]

Obi-Wan Kenobi can take a punch from General Grievous, who's strong enough to dent starfighter hulls.


Please, everybody knows that Obi-Wan Kenobi is by a random chance of fate made of a material that completely cripples General Grievous circuits.

How else can you explain that in the cartoon the General, alone and with little effort, charges several jedis and ****** them, and in the movie Obi-Wan wipes the floor with him?

[Talkkno]

How else can you explain that in the cartoon the General, alone and with little effort, charges several jedis and ****** them, and in the movie Obi-Wan wipes the floor with him?

The Jedi's in the cartoon were full of self doubt and fear. While Obi-Wan was not. Hence this quote
"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy."

[chiasaur11]

The Jedi's in the cartoon were full of self doubt and fear. While Obi-Wan was not. Hence this quote
"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy."

Plus:
1) Grievous was way tougher in the cartoon, and a wuss in the movie

2) Mace fought old Ben after Mace %#^&@^@ Windu (AKA Samuel Mother@#@#&^& Jackson) was through with him. And Mace Windu doesn't leave people in a shape they can deal with any Jedi. Including cannon fodder and rookies.

[Dervag]

Please, everybody knows that Obi-Wan Kenobi is by a random chance of fate made of a material that completely cripples General Grievous circuits.

How else can you explain that in the cartoon the General, alone and with little effort, charges several jedis and ****** them, and in the movie Obi-Wan wipes the floor with him?The specific example I gave about Obi-Wan taking a punch from Grievous isn't important. I could just as well have listed the great leaps he makes while fighting Darth Maul on Naboo. Or any of a number of other examples of Jedi using the force to boost their physical abilities.

So, are you actually interested in addressing my argument, or not?
__________

If you want an explanation of how Grievous could beat other Jedi and still lose to Windu, read the novelization of Episode III. See for yourself.

Or if you can't be bothered:

Obi-Wan is one of the greatest Jedi knights of his era. He is very serene and disciplined. And he is master of a style of lightsaber combat that gives him an almost unbreakable defense. This makes him the perfect match for Grievous- his morale isn't going to break, and he can handle the kind of whirlwind attack Grievous likes to deliver with those mechanical limbs.

Grievous might be able to overwhelm lesser Jedi, but when confronted with the great masters like Mace Windu and Obi-Wan, he loses.

[Oslecamo]

The specific example I gave about Obi-Wan taking a punch from Grievous isn't important. I could just as well have listed the great leaps he makes while fighting Darth Maul on Naboo. Or any of a number of other examples of Jedi using the force to boost their physical abilities.

So, are you actually interested in addressing my argument, or not?

Then the force is a really unstable power, clearly fueled by plot-power.

Remember end of episode II? Mace Windu, backed up by around an hundred jedis, are geting slaughtered like cattle by mindless droids who just advance and shoot. One would expect the jedis to leap for cover instead of standing in the open, or go strike the enemy leadership with their super jumps, but alas, it seems the force wasn't strong enough on them.

What the force can and not do greatly varies. In the cartoon Yoda makes enemy ships crash each other and then leaps into battle with countless droids. In the movie he has trouble moving a single metal column! There's no freaking consistency!



Grievous might be able to overwhelm lesser Jedi, but when confronted with the great masters like Mace Windu and Obi-Wan, he loses.

Nevermind his sudden attack of stupidity. When you've got your whole army at your side, and you're losing in one to one combat(aka geting limbs cut), and you're evil, you may as well order your mindless legions to shoot the pesky jedi to death. It worked pretty well in the end of episode II.

Also, one can only wonder why Obi-Wan didn't simply kill the Emperor himself. He was stronger than Anakin, who was stronger than the emperor. Who could stand in his path? Instead, he goes into hiding for several years, leting countless suffer at the hands of the Emperium.

So clearly the force also deals severe brain damage, wich may explain why Yoda speacks in that weird way.

It's also aparently dependant on the higher ground. The higher your position, the stronger your force. That's why Yoda can't beat other jedis. He's simply too short!:smalltongue:

[KnightDisciple]

Wait, how is Obi-Wan stronger than Anakin? More tactically minded, and a clearer thinker, sure, but stronger?

[Oslecamo]

Wait, how is Obi-Wan stronger than Anakin? More tactically minded, and a clearer thinker, sure, but stronger?

Perhaps you missed the part where Obi-Wan cuts off the limbs of Anakin in one to one combat, while laughing at Anakin's atempts of force choking him. From where I come from that's called being stronger.

This is, what good is having super force powers if you don't use them to save you from a fiery death? I assume Anakin did his best to try to win that combat, and yet he ends half dead on the floor with just an artifical limb attached, whitout Obi-Wan having resorted to any dirty trick or outside help. Heck, he even warned Anakin that attacking head on from that position would be a really bad idea.

[KnightDisciple]

I take it to be the difference between raw power and skill. Obi-Wan has much more experience, and more importantly, better emotional control.
The limb-slicing? That's called Obi-Wan having a terrain advantage combined with a highly defensive fighting style. Anakin played it stupid, and it cost him.
As for the Force choke? Hm. Haven't watched the scene recently, but I recall them both struggling a lot. Again, I think of it as Anakin pouring raw power into it, while Obi-Wan makes the most efficient use of his power (which, while no small thing, isn't at the same level).
Palpatine beat Yoda. Who had, at that point, almost 900 years of experience. Palpatine was stronger, he was as smart, if not smarter, and he used his terrain better. (I'm sure Lucas imagined there being some kind of Darkside hindering mojo going on, too, or something to that affect.)
Incidentally, part of my understanding of how Anakin didn't die from the fire after all was his usage of the Force.
*Shrugs*

[Oslecamo]

So how do you explain that Anakin managed to defeat Windu so easily? It was clear he was falling to the dark side, so Windu should have seen the lightsaber coming, but lets himself lose an hand and be electocutated to death.

Anyway, my point was that Obi-Wan would wipe the floor with the Emperor, since he wiped the floor with Anakin, who later wiped the floor with the Emperor. With just an hand, no lightsaber and after having used most of his force. Perhaps it would be because of his skill, but still he would make kebab of the emperor.

So just imagine what a full strenght Obi-Wan with lightsaber would do to the emperor.

Yoda lost because he's short. He could never get the higher ground, wich aparently is a major advantage in lightsaber fighting, since "weaker" Obi-Wan pwned "chosen" Anakin just because he got the higher ground. This is, if you're in a stalemate and sudenly one of the fighters is with 3 less limbs, something big hapened, and the only visible diference was that Obi-Wan got the higher ground.

Also, you still didn't explain why on the cartoon Yoda can throw space carriers against each other with medium effort, and in movie he needs full concentration to just move one metal pilar.

[Thiel]

That's simple. Making starships crash together and explode is far easier (and cheaper) when making a cartoon than with a film.

[13_CBS]

Eh, I'm not sure about Obi Wan taking out Palpatine. Even with Anakin's help, he lost to Dooku in 2-on-1 saber duels twice, remember?

I think that Mace had the best chance to kill Palpatine: he's the best Jedi swordsman and uses a technique that Palpatine probably isn't as familiar with, so Palpatine can't simply overwhelm him with saber skills. The nature of Mace's combat style is also well suited for deflecting lightning, again negating one of Palpatine's combat strengths. Remember that even Yoda had difficulty against PAlpatine's lightning, while Mace could apparently turn that lightning right back on Palpatine. But, of course, thanks to Anakin Mace bites the dust.

I don't think Obi Wan could negate those two combat advantages as well as Mace did. Palpatine, being a better swordsman than Grievous (and likely Dooku, whose Makashi worked well against Obi Wan's Soresu), probably would have taken down Obi in a straight saber duel. And if I recall Episodes II and III correctly, Obi doesn't fare too well against lightning either.

Thus, Jedi combat skills aren't so much objective ranked things as much as they're like rocks, papers, and scissors: some combat styles are better suited for bringing down certain people than others. Obi was suited for Grievous, Mace was suited for Palpatine.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Anyway, my point was that Obi-Wan would wipe the floor with the Emperor, since he wiped the floor with Anakin, who later wiped the floor with the Emperor. With just an hand, no lightsaber and after having used most of his force. Perhaps it would be because of his skill, but still he would make kebab of the emperor.

(underlining mine)

But Anikin/Vader did not defeat the Emperor in combat. He grabbed the Emperor from behind while the Emperor was concentrating on Luke and threw him down a shaft. That can hardly be described as "wiped the floor with the Emperor".

[13_CBS]

(underlining mine)

But Anikin/Vader did not defeat the Emperor in combat. He grabbed the Emperor from behind while the Emperor was concentrating on Luke and threw him down a shaft. That can hardly be described as "wiped the floor with the Emperor".

If anything, Palpatine would have wiped the floor with Vader. That suit's pretty vulnerable to lightning.

[Manga Shoggoth]

If anything, Palpatine would have wiped the floor with Vader. That suit's pretty vulnerable to lightning.

If you watch the film in slow motion there is at least one image of a skull traced in lightning over Vader's head during the sequence. If only he had earthed his armour...

[hamishspence]

and, in The Rise of Darth Vader, Palpatine points out to Vader that he can easily overwhelm the circuitry in his suit.

So, at least in EU, Vader knows that going up against Palpatine will typically get him killed, unless he's very very lucky.

[GoC]

Obi-Wan is one of the greatest Jedi knights of his era. He is very serene and disciplined. And he is master of a style of lightsaber combat that gives him an almost unbreakable defense. This makes him the perfect match for Grievous- his morale isn't going to break, and he can handle the kind of whirlwind attack Grievous likes to deliver with those mechanical limbs.

Grievous might be able to overwhelm lesser Jedi, but when confronted with the great masters like Mace Windu and Obi-Wan, he loses.

The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.

[Mando Knight]

The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.

O RLY? Obi-Wan seemed to do pretty well against a guy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grievous) with four of 'em...

[Dervag]

The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.I don't think that Obi-Wan's style calls on him to stand there and get his head sliced off rather than disengage.

Also, I'm not entirely sure lightsaber binds work that way.

[13_CBS]

The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.

Soresu doesn't call for immobility, only very efficient mobility for defense. Thus, while it trains you to expend the least amount of energy to defend an incoming attack, it doesn't necessarily root you to the ground.

[Mr. Scaly]

The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.

He answers by moving very fast in a way that a non-Force adept like Greivous can't.

[Dervag]

Well, Grievous can move as fast as Obi-Wan can; the real difference is that Grievous doesn't have a precognitive ability to "feel the Force flowing through him" to guide his actions.

The stuff he tells Luke aboard the Millenium Falcon in Episode IV may sound like a bunch of mystical gibberish, but it's the core of how his fighting style is supposed to work, in-setting.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well maybe Grievous can. I don't have his technical specs in front of me. But theoretically if you're fast and experienced enough precognition isn't needed. You could knock one blade away then the other in succession.

[13_CBS]

Well maybe Grievous can. I don't have his technical specs in front of me. But theoretically if you're fast and experienced enough precognition isn't needed. You could knock one blade away then the other in succession.

Theoretically, yes. But Grievous wasn't, which was probably part of the reason why Obi beat him.

This links to the whole, "Disrupt a Jedi's mindset to beat him" thing that netted Grievous his first several Jedi kills. If you mess up a Jedi's concentration, he can't use his precognitive abilities as well--thus, he becomes easier prey for even a highly skilled cyborg.

[Mr. Scaly]

Theoretically, yes. But Grievous wasn't, which was probably part of the reason why Obi beat him.

This links to the whole, "Disrupt a Jedi's mindset to beat him" thing that netted Grievous his first several Jedi kills. If you mess up a Jedi's concentration, he can't use his precognitive abilities as well--thus, he becomes easier prey for even a highly skilled cyborg.

True that. Non Force sensitives seem to use that tactic a lot actually.

[13_CBS]

True that. Non Force sensitives seem to use that tactic a lot actually.

It's really the only chance they have, actually.


In Kotor II, HK 47 and Atton Rand mention that that was how they killed so many Jedi, despite the former being "just" a droid, and the latter being (at the time) a non-Force Sensitive human. Droids can't be mind-read, and HK is an expert in all forms of assassination, while Atton developed strong resistances to mind-reading and knew many of the same techniques that HK knew.

Also, I again propose that Mace had the best shot at taking down the Emperor, even a better shot than Yoda. Too bad Angsty McAngstpants had to lop his arm off.

[Mr. Scaly]

It's really the only chance they have, actually.


In Kotor II, HK 47 and Atton Rand mention that that was how they killed so many Jedi, despite the former being "just" a droid, and the latter being (at the time) a non-Force Sensitive human. Droids can't be mind-read, and HK is an expert in all forms of assassination, while Atton developed strong resistances to mind-reading and knew many of the same techniques that HK knew.

Also, I again propose that Mace had the best shot at taking down the Emperor, even a better shot than Yoda. Too bad Angsty McAngstpants had to lop his arm off.

Superior numbers doesn't work unless they take them by surprise...or it's just so many. I never played Kotor (sadly) but I do remember how Thrawn defeated Outbound Flight...in just the opposite way actually.

He knew where Outbound Flight would be and pulled them out of hyperspace with an early gravity well generator. Then he stalled them for a while until a race of space pirates was also lured to the spot. Naturally they attacked Outbound Flight...the gang of 20+ Jedi aboard joined together to paralyse the raiders with confusion and fear, basically twisting their minds...then Thrawn slaughtered the pirates and stunned the Jedi witht he backlash of death long enough to kill them all with precisely targeted turbolasers.

Ingenious.

And yes! Palpatine was many things including a liar and an actor and he certainly wasn't finished but Windu had him disarmed and pinned to the floor, and showed that he could deflect Force Lightning at will. Palpatine was in serious trouble there...

[13_CBS]

Actually...a rather large kink in my proposition:

Sidious might have been faking it all.

It wouldn't be beyond Sidious, I think. Mace might have been the Jedi most suited for taking him out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually did. Who knows? It's possible that Sidious had something else up his sleeve (a powerful Force Drain, perhaps? Kreia in KOTOR II mentions that "...there are techniques in the Force that there are no defenses against...") while he was lying there, being "helpless".

[Mr. Scaly]

Hmm. Well if anyone would have something like that it would be dear old Darth Sidious. Revan, Malak, bane, I still think that he was the most powerful Sith in history...and I'll get burned for that I just know it. Heh.

But hey, Mace Windu was one of very few people who had a chance and came close to pulling it off. So I guess we'll never know.

[Seraph]

Superior numbers doesn't work unless they take them by surprise...or it's just so many. I never played Kotor (sadly) but I do remember how Thrawn defeated Outbound Flight...in just the opposite way actually.

He knew where Outbound Flight would be and pulled them out of hyperspace with an early gravity well generator. Then he stalled them for a while until a race of space pirates was also lured to the spot. Naturally they attacked Outbound Flight...the gang of 20+ Jedi aboard joined together to paralyse the raiders with confusion and fear, basically twisting their minds...then Thrawn slaughtered the pirates and stunned the Jedi witht he backlash of death long enough to kill them all with precisely targeted turbolasers.

Ingenious.

And yes! Palpatine was many things including a liar and an actor and he certainly wasn't finished but Windu had him disarmed and pinned to the floor, and showed that he could deflect Force Lightning at will. Palpatine was in serious trouble there...

Atton and HK's plans worked like so:

Firstly, never attack the Jedi directly. they can block blaster bolts, but gases are trickier. use indirect methods that they wont see coming.

secondly, don't kill the jedi first. target their friends and allies, to throw the jedi into a state where they'll do something stupid before thinking clearly.

[turkishproverb]

Atton and HK's plans worked like so:

Firstly, never attack the Jedi directly. they can block blaster bolts, but gases are trickier. use indirect methods that they wont see coming.

secondly, don't kill the jedi first. target their friends and allies, to throw the jedi into a state where they'll do something stupid before thinking clearly.

Stupid for themselves yes. Problem is you can never tell if they're being emotional or saving someone they consider more important. Still, same end result.

[GoC]

Well maybe Grievous can. I don't have his technical specs in front of me. But theoretically if you're fast and experienced enough precognition isn't needed. You could knock one blade away then the other in succession.
That requires superior strength and speed. And Obi-Wan has niether in this case.

I don't think that Obi-Wan's style calls on him to stand there and get his head sliced off rather than disengage.

Also, I'm not entirely sure lightsaber binds work that way.
Works what way?
In the movie he is seen as more or less standing still and he blocks a lot. Something that should be impossible given a vaguely intelligent Grevious.

Conclusion: Star Wars is inconsistent.

Best way to kill a Jedi:
Use three blasters taped together and give one set each to 100 storm troopers.

[turkishproverb]

Only if he's not a named character.

[GoC]

Only if he's not a named character.

Obviously.

[Coidzor]

Jedi won't die unless it's the equivalent of an FMV sequence, in which case it doesn't really matter what seems to kill them, it's actually the Word of God what does it. </meta>

[Mr. Scaly]

That requires superior strength and speed. And Obi-Wan has niether in this case.

Not necessarily. Even Mace Windu respected Obi-Wan's skill with a lightsabre.


Works what way?
In the movie he is seen as more or less standing still and he blocks a lot. Something that should be impossible given a vaguely intelligent Grevious.

Conclusion: Star Wars is inconsistent.

Best way to kill a Jedi:
Use three blasters taped together and give one set each to 100 storm troopers.

Obi-Wan specialised in Type 3 lightsaber fighting, which emphasises a strong defence that can block all angles with minimal effort. The philosophy is to remain calm and undisturbed by all that occurs around them and stay patient, waiting for the opponent to slip up or get tired before striking.

Grievous was fearsome but he was damaged, had no advantage of fear and surprise, and was up against an opponent who's skill with a blade was perfectly matched to defeat his aggression.

[GoC]

Well maybe Grievous can. I don't have his technical specs in front of me. But theoretically if you're fast and experienced enough precognition isn't needed. You could knock one blade away then the other in succession.
That requires superior strength and speed. And Obi-Wan has niether in this case.
Not necessarily. Even Mace Windu respected Obi-Wan's skill with a lightsabre.
:smallconfused:
Non sequitur.


Obi-Wan specialised in Type 3 lightsaber fighting, which emphasises a strong defence that can block all angles with minimal effort. The philosophy is to remain calm and undisturbed by all that occurs around them and stay patient, waiting for the opponent to slip up or get tired before striking.

Grievous was fearsome but he was damaged, had no advantage of fear and surprise, and was up against an opponent who's skill with a blade was perfectly matched to defeat his aggression.
How exactly is this a counter to my point?


The thing is with two lightsabers you can use the unblockable scissor action. Something that is more or less an autowin against Obi-Wan who's fighting style calls for him not to move.

[Oslecamo]

Grievous was fearsome but he was damaged, had no advantage of fear and surprise, and was up against an opponent who's skill with a blade was perfectly matched to defeat his aggression.

That's precisely the kind of situation where you call on your evil robot legions to pepper the jedi with lasers.

[13_CBS]

@ GoC: What exactly do you mean by the "unblockable" scissors action?

And yes, Star Wars is inconsistent. Oh well.

[GoC]

@ GoC: What exactly do you mean by the "unblockable" scissors action?

And yes, Star Wars is inconsistent. Oh well.

Hold two lightsabers a little way apart both parralel to the floor. Rotate so that they both attempt to bysect your oponent. If said opponent has only one lightsaber they will not be able to block both of yours.

[Dervag]

Hold two lightsabers a little way apart both parralel to the floor. Rotate so that they both attempt to bysect your oponent. If said opponent has only one lightsaber they will not be able to block both of yours.Which is not to say they won't dive out of the way, as they would if a train were coming at them.


That's precisely the kind of situation where you call on your evil robot legions to pepper the jedi with lasers.Peppering a master Jedi with lasers is a risky proposition, especially if they are master of a highly defensive form of lightsaber combat.

[Oslecamo]

Peppering a master Jedi with lasers is a risky proposition, especially if they are master of a highly defensive form of lightsaber combat.

Well, it worked pretty damn well in the end of episode two. I didn't see any Mace Windu ownage or Obi-Wan-fu back there under the rain of droid lasers, no sir.

[13_CBS]

Peppering a master Jedi with lasers is a risky proposition, especially if they are master of a highly defensive form of lightsaber combat.

As the movies prove, a sufficiently overwhelming number of blaster-equipped enemies can and will take down Jedi.

As for Obi Wan being vulnerable to a scissors attack...

Remember that Obi is also well versed in Form IV, Ataru (which he learned from his master Qui Gon). Ataru's acrobatics is well suited for dodging such attacks.

Now, Grievous could counter a simple back flip by doing another scissors attack at the backflipping Jedi, so it'll take Obi Wan more than a simple jump to avoid a scissors attack by Grievous.

Edit: Also, while Soresu's probably one of the less mobile of the seven combat forms, I don't think it necessarily demands that a Jedi stand still for EVERY attack. Most attacks, yes, but if the Soresu style could be so easily defeated by forcing the Jedi to sit there and take anything and everything, including attacks that cannot be blocked, then the Jedi probably wouldn't have bothered using it.

[Mr. Scaly]

:smallconfused:
Non sequitur.


How exactly is this a counter to my point?

Okay...if Windu beat Grievous, and Windu respected Obi's skill...

If a style of combat that puts so much emphasis on defence could be defeated so easily then no one would use it.

[13_CBS]

If a style of combat that puts so much emphasis on defence could be defeated so easily then no one would use it.

Which is almost a bit strange. I think a lot of real life martial artists and fencers would scorn this philosophy of only defending until the enemy makes a critical mistake. But then, these are Jedi we're talking about...

[Dervag]

Well, it worked pretty damn well in the end of episode two. I didn't see any Mace Windu ownage or Obi-Wan-fu back there under the rain of droid lasers, no sir.Let me put it this way.

If you had airdropped a hundred normal guys with swords into that arena with that many armed combat droids shooting at them, they would all have died fast. It would have been a completely one-sided massacre.

As it is, they airdropped a hundred Jedi in there with lightsabers. Some of the Jedi survived the battle, and quite a few of them managed to strike back and kill some of the attacking droids. It was not a completely one-sided massacre, even though the Jedi would certainly have lost eventually.

That's the difference between shooting at Jedi and shooting at normal guys. In a fight with normal guys, a blaster would always beat any close combat weapon. Against Jedi, you need to use a lot of blasters, and there will be a lot of collateral damage, unless you take them totally by surprise.

[Talkkno]

Which is almost a bit strange. I think a lot of real life martial artists and fencers would scorn this philosophy of only defending until the enemy makes a critical mistake. But then, these are Jedi we're talking about...

I don't realize their is a real life marital art that uses the energy field created by living beings to augment their combat prowess. :smallwink:

[Mr. Scaly]

Which is almost a bit strange. I think a lot of real life martial artists and fencers would scorn this philosophy of only defending until the enemy makes a critical mistake. But then, these are Jedi we're talking about...

Talkkno said it better than I could. :smallbiggrin: It matches the Jedi philosophy of peace and defence too.

[Mando Knight]

Hold two lightsabers a little way apart both parralel to the floor. Rotate so that they both attempt to bysect your oponent. If said opponent has only one lightsaber they will not be able to block both of yours.

How is this unstoppable? If your timing is even a little off, the opponent can either strike while you're open or move out of the way. The idea of Soresu, as Bane explained to his apprentice, is to redirect the opponent's attacks with minimal effort on your behalf. Since the use of two lightsabers will drain your stamina faster than using one (you're expending twice the amount of energy in the same amount of time), Soresu's endurance advantage is compounded. Obi-Wan, as the "Master of Soresu," would be able to parry the blades (possibly by redirecting one into the other, quite easy since you would only have one arm's strength behind it while he would have his entire body... and parrying usually gives the defender the mechanical advantage...) and strike when your defense is down afterwards.

[13_CBS]

How is this unstoppable? If your timing is even a little off, the opponent can either strike while you're open or move out of the way. The idea of Soresu, as Bane explained to his apprentice, is to redirect the opponent's attacks with minimal effort on your behalf. Since the use of two lightsabers will drain your stamina faster than using one (you're expending twice the amount of energy in the same amount of time), Soresu's endurance advantage is compounded. Obi-Wan, as the "Master of Soresu," would be able to parry the blades (possibly by redirecting one into the other, quite easy since you would only have one arm's strength behind it while he would have his entire body... and parrying usually gives the defender the mechanical advantage...) and strike when your defense is down afterwards.

In the case of Grievous, you're forgetting that our cyborg general has an extra pair of arms.

[Oslecamo]

That's the difference between shooting at Jedi and shooting at normal guys. In a fight with normal guys, a blaster would always beat any close combat weapon. Against Jedi, you need to use a lot of blasters, and there will be a lot of collateral damage, unless you take them totally by surprise.

And Grievous had a lot of blasters laying around. I never said one blaster alone would do the job. But the fight ocurred in a big room stuffed with droids! It was the perfect oportunity for zome zerg tactics!

Sincerly, what's the purpose of having mass produced battle droids with blasters if you're not willing to sacrifice some dozens to take down one of the biggest enemy generals?

[GoC]

Which is not to say they won't dive out of the way, as they would if a train were coming at them.

Did I say it was undodgable? No. I simply said it's unblockable.


If a style of combat that puts so much emphasis on defence could be defeated so easily then no one would use it.

So easily? It requires three lightsabres (two to attack one to block) to pull off! Tell me who else wields three lightsabres?


How is this unstoppable? If your timing is even a little off, the opponent can either strike while you're open or move out of the way. The idea of Soresu, as Bane explained to his apprentice, is to redirect the opponent's attacks with minimal effort on your behalf. Since the use of two lightsabers will drain your stamina faster than using one (you're expending twice the amount of energy in the same amount of time), Soresu's endurance advantage is compounded. Obi-Wan, as the "Master of Soresu," would be able to parry the blades (possibly by redirecting one into the other, quite easy since you would only have one arm's strength behind it while he would have his entire body... and parrying usually gives the defender the mechanical advantage...) and strike when your defense is down afterwards.

Not a single one of these apply.
Timing? Cyborg
Stamina? Cyborg
Parrying one into the other? Lightsaber blades have no mass and thus no momentum. Plus there's no way you could do this without leaving yourself completely exposed before the scissor action is started.
Defense down? Two more lightsabers.

[Zeful]

Did I say it was undodgable? No. I simply said it's unblockable.
So easily? It requires three lightsabres (two to attack one to block) to pull off! Tell me who else wields three lightsabres?
Not a single one of these apply.
Timing? Cyborg
Stamina? Cyborg
Parrying one into the other? Lightsaber blades have no mass and thus no momentum. Plus there's no way you could do this without leaving yourself completely exposed before the scissor action is started.
Defense down? Two more lightsabers.

You do realise Grevious did something like what you describe in the movie? He turned two of his lightsaber into spinnning sheilds that would have protected him from any kind of frontal assult. How well did that work?

[GoC]

You do realise Grevious did something like what you describe in the movie? He turned two of his lightsaber into spinnning sheilds that would have protected him from any kind of frontal assult. How well did that work?

Spinning lightsabers is supposed to be effective defense?
I'm describing an unblockable attack not a rather unimaginitive defense.

[Zeful]

Spinning lightsabers is supposed to be effective defense?
I'm describing an unblockable attack not a rather unimaginitive defense.

Your describing an attack that is less effective than the unimaginitive defense. Greivous's arms are only so long, they can hold any object only a certain distance away from his body. Greivous's sabers are better than half as long as he is tall, making them longer than his arms. Meaning he has to turn them off and on rapidly enough to prevent his own weapons from cutting him in half whilst still being effective. The slightest change in tempo will cause him to bisect himself before he can prevent it.
No one is dumb enough to use an attack form that has a better chance of killing you then your oppenant. What you describe (two blades spinning parralel to the floor) requires that the victim stand still and take it rather than striking a lightsaber to throw off the tempo of the attack and win.

[GoC]

Your describing an attack that is less effective than the unimaginitive defense. Greivous's arms are only so long, they can hold any object only a certain distance away from his body. Greivous's sabers are better than half as long as he is tall, making them longer than his arms. Meaning he has to turn them off and on rapidly enough to prevent his own weapons from cutting him in half whilst still being effective. The slightest change in tempo will cause him to bisect himself before he can prevent it.
No one is dumb enough to use an attack form that has a better chance of killing you then your oppenant. What you describe (two blades spinning parralel to the floor) requires that the victim stand still and take it rather than striking a lightsaber to throw off the tempo of the attack and win.

...what?
It appears you misunderstood my. He's not spinning his lightsabers. He's using them as scissors. Essentially a double attack coming from both sides.

[Zeful]

...what?
It appears you misunderstood my. He's not spinning his lightsabers. He's using them as scissors. Essentially a double attack coming from both sides.

Oh, sorry. I'm going to need some kind of visual aid or something. The only thing I can think of would be to lock the opponents single lightsaber into a diamond effect, but that can be countered by shutting off your saber and jumping backward.
Something like:


..x..
.xox.
/.x.\
./.\.
o=enemy lightsaber
x=your crossed sabers
/\=Lightsaber handlesThis.

[GoC]

.xooox
.x...x
.x...x
-|xxx|-
o=enemy body
x=your sabers
| -=Lightsaber handles

Scissors involves moving your two front lightsabres to bisect your opponent.
It is unblockable but not undodgable.

[Mr. Scaly]

So easily? It requires three lightsabres (two to attack one to block) to pull off! Tell me who else wields three lightsabres?


Three? A scissors only needs two though, wouldn't it? Hmm...well, not the point.

The point is that it's also stated that Obi's style is the best at blocking attacks from many people at once. Two attacks from one person is the same thing.

[GoC]

Three? A scissors only needs two though, wouldn't it? Hmm...well, not the point.
Third one's to make sure Obi-Wan doesn't kill him at the same time.

The point is that it's also stated that Obi's style is the best at blocking attacks from many people at once. Two attacks from one person is the same thing.

Someone's style may be best at flying, doesn't mean they can fly. Tell me how he will block those strikes? It's physically impossible.

[Tyrant]

So easily? It requires three lightsabres (two to attack one to block) to pull off! Tell me who else wields three lightsabres?

Darth Traya as I recall. Though the odds of her and the general meeting to fight it out in the material plane are slim to none.

I would think his best bet would be to set each arm on a different attack path all at once if he were capable of doing it. Scissor with two. Have one of the others go high while the other goes low. Obi Wan's single saber can only block so much at once. I don't know what his reaction time is and how much of his movement is hard wired computer control, but a randomized attack pattern that somehow takes into account the positions of all sabers at once while constantly looking for an opening would be the way to go I would think. No real thought on his part for Obi Wan to react to and an ever shifting attack pattern would make it harder for Obi Wan to see where his attacks will land and thus not die.

[Zeful]

Scissor with two. Have one of the others go high while the other goes low. Obi Wan's single saber can only block so much at once.

The best response would be to low jump while twisting (like on Bulletproof Monk) and stabbing toward the scissor's center. Grievous will throw the lighter Obi-wan out of reach due to how scissor maneuvers work with blades.

[Mr. Scaly]

Third one's to make sure Obi-Wan doesn't kill him at the same time.

Ah. A handy use indeed.


Someone's style may be best at flying, doesn't mean they can fly. Tell me how he will block those strikes? It's physically impossible.

Like I said before, blocking first one then the other couldn't hurt. He's fast enough to pull it off and can generate enough strength to block Grievous' swings without getting bowled over. Or he could redirect one blade into the other. Or just step back and let them whizz right by him...Type 3 doesn't mean standing in place. Or grab one blade with the Force then block the other. Or just throw Grievous across the room with the Force int he first place. Not exactly blocking but why be picky, right? if it works it works.

[RPGuru1331]

I'm sorry, are you arguing that it's impossible for Obi-wan to beat Grievous?

See, this is why I have zero respect for these "My favorite guy can beat up yours" threads. Dude already did.

[13_CBS]

I'm sorry, are you arguing that it's impossible for Obi-wan to beat Grievous?

See, this is why I have zero respect for these "My favorite guy can beat up yours" threads. Dude already did.

I think he's arguing that, by all rights, Grievous should have, and is using the argument that, "Two-lightsaber scissors attacks are unblockable, even by the vaunted Soresu, and while the attack is dodgeable, Obi Wan doesn't do a whole ton of that" to bolster his argument.

Which I sort of agree with: I wish Lucas let Grievous put up a much better fight for Episode III.

[RPGuru1331]

I think he's arguing that, by all rights, Grievous should have, and is using the argument that, "Two-lightsaber scissors attacks are unblockable, even by the vaunted Soresu, and while the attack is dodgeable, Obi Wan doesn't do a whole ton of that" to bolster his argument.

Which I sort of agree with: I wish Lucas let Grievous put up a much better fight for Episode III.

I don't disagree that Grievous should have put up a better fight.

I do disagree that you can claim anything is unbeatable by a dude with prescience. They may or may not fail, but there's always going to be a way.

And anyone who wants to apply 'realistic' swordfighting to the setting with Space Samurai Psychics has even more serious issues.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Pretty sure the attack GoC is describing didn't happen because of Plot Armor and Lucas being a terrible director, rather than any deal with realistic physics or swordfighting.

[turkishproverb]

Also, we do See obiwan dodge a little, so grevious may have simply realized Obiwan would simply dodge a scissor attack. And since those attacks leave you very open to counter attack, it's really not worth the risk.

[13_CBS]

Pretty sure the attack GoC is describing didn't happen because of Plot Armor and Lucas being a terrible director, rather than any deal with realistic physics or swordfighting.

Of course. We're just arguing over whether Obi could have beaten Grievous if neither had plot armor.

Edit: I should also remind you all that, though it's not shown as much in the movies, Obi's easily capable of dodging about. He used to be an Ataru style fighter, remember?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I fail to see how that's relevant when we're discussing one of the worst large-budget directors out there, but at least it would have made the fight a lot more entertaining.

[RPGuru1331]

Pretty sure the attack GoC is describing didn't happen because of Plot Armor and Lucas being a terrible director, rather than any deal with realistic physics or swordfighting.

I'm pretty sure it didn't happen because Grievous got no screentime. The reason for that is likely related to Lucas being a terrible director

[Talkkno]

Pretty sure the attack GoC is describing didn't happen because of Plot Armor and Lucas being a terrible director, rather than any deal with realistic physics or swordfighting.

Must i remind you of the Force?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Must i remind you of the Force?No, but thank you, as it's made me think of something.

Telekinesis would have also been a way to block a simultaneous blade scissor attack with only one sword. Easier just to dodge, though.

[Dervag]

Which is almost a bit strange. I think a lot of real life martial artists and fencers would scorn this philosophy of only defending until the enemy makes a critical mistake. But then, these are Jedi we're talking about...Yes, in that Jedi are better at defense than real life swordsmen of the same level of training, because they're precognitive.

On the other hand, summarizing any martial art style (such as the fictional Soresu) in a few sentences (like "defend until you get a critical opening") is going to leave out a lot of important detail. In-universe, Soresu would be tremendously complicated, with a variety of attack and defense options.

I mean, judo and its ancestor jujutsu can be summarized as "throw and grapple your enemies, trapping them in a joint lock or choke hold." It's not a wildly inaccurate summary, but it leaves out a lot of detail. A master of jujutsu has options other than grapples and throws and pins. He can use those options to deal with an enemy if the enemy's attacks come in a form that those tactics can't counter. He's not helpless, though he might be at a disadvantage compared to someone just as practiced in a different style.
_______


Of course. We're just arguing over whether Obi could have beaten Grievous if neither had plot armor.That depends on just how powerful Obi really is.

We have a pretty good idea of how formidable Grievous is, because all his abilities are things we can easily imagine- Grievous's power is purely a function of technologies and training. But we have no way to evaluate how big a tactical advantage Obi-Wan's Force abilities give him, or how effective he is at foreseeing the trap an "unblockable" attack presents and escaping it.

Could Grievous beat any ordinary human swordsman who was given a lightsaber? Most likely. Could Grievous "realistically" beat the average Jedi? Quite possibly. Would Grievous "realistically" be able to beat the best Jedi swordsmen out there? No way to be sure.
_______


I'm pretty sure it didn't happen because Grievous got no screentime. The reason for that is likely related to Lucas being a terrible directorThere's another reason.

Grievous was a character who came completely out of left field from the movie-canon perspective. I didn't watch the Clone Wars cartoons between Episodes II and III, so I had no idea who the heck General Grievous was until I saw him fighting over Coruscant. No idea why he was coughing, no concept of just what he was and was not capable of.

Most of Lucas's audience was in that same category. And I think Lucas knew that would be true.

So there was a limit on how much screen time Lucas would really want to give Grievous. Even if he was the best director in the world, it's important to remember that Episode III is really about the fall of the Republic, the rise of the Empire, and the fall of Anakin Skywalker to the dark side. The Separatists were really just a distraction created by Palpatine to allow him to get away with all that stuff.

Now, if Lucas had intended to make the fight against Grievous and the events of the second half of the movie (Order 66, Anakin's fall, the duel on Mustafar) part of a separate movie, then yes the fight against Grievous should have been a huge extravaganza in which Obi-Wan was nearly killed. But that wasn't in the cards.

If the fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous had been as awesome and memorable as all of us would like, it would have distracted too much from the stuff the movie was supposed to be about.

Which is not to say Lucas did a good job of portraying that stuff either, but it wasn't simply bad directing to not give Grievous more screen time and tougher fighting skills.

[Talkkno]

Could Grievous beat any ordinary human swordsman who was given a lightsaber? Most likely. Could Grievous "realistically" beat the average Jedi? Quite possibly. Would Grievous "realistically" be able to beat the best Jedi swordsmen out there? No way to be sure.


DIdn't i already over that Dooku noted that Grievous couldn't defeat a Jedi master without fear on his side.

[Dervag]

DIdn't i already over that Dooku noted that Grievous could defeat a Jedi master without fear on his side.I could have sworn it was "couldn't defeat." And I've seen that passage quoted several times...

[turkishproverb]

I could have sworn it was "couldn't defeat." And I've seen that passage quoted several times...

"Don't let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, General. If you're to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But, if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy."

Emphasis added.

[Talkkno]

I could have sworn it was "couldn't defeat." And I've seen that passage quoted several times...

Ninja'd noted

[turkishproverb]

It was a 57 minute difference. You weren't ninja'd.:smallcool:

[GoC]

Like I said before, blocking first one then the other couldn't hurt. He's fast enough to pull it off and can generate enough strength to block Grievous' swings without getting bowled over. Or he could redirect one blade into the other. Or just step back and let them whizz right by him...Type 3 doesn't mean standing in place. Or grab one blade with the Force then block the other. Or just throw Grievous across the room with the Force int he first place. Not exactly blocking but why be picky, right? if it works it works.

So you're saying that Obi-Wan is twice as fast as Grevious? In the movie they are just as fast as eachother.
Blocking requires the blocker to be continuosly pressing on the blade. Blocking one then the other just delays the attack by a millisecond without doing anything to stop it. It also requires greater strength than your opponent. Parrying is probably what you mean but that doesn't work because lightsabers have no mass.
Look at this video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA). There are dozens of places in the four/three lightsaber battle where Obi-Wan should have lost a limb or his life. That's why the writers made Grevious lose two hands in the first 20 seconds of the fight, it just looked too ridiculous.

Also, AFIAK force users can't seem to use the force once their opponent gets that close and force throwing a lightsaber blade has never been done.
There's literaly no evidence that he can do this.


I do disagree that you can claim anything is unbeatable by a dude with prescience. They may or may not fail, but there's always going to be a way.
Unbeatable? No, just unblockable and very useful.


Could Grievous beat any ordinary human swordsman who was given a lightsaber? Most likely. Could Grievous "realistically" beat the average Jedi? Quite possibly. Would Grievous "realistically" be able to beat the best Jedi swordsmen out there? No way to be sure.
Think for about 10 minutes about how a fight between someone who can wield four lightsabers effectively vs. a dude with only one will go. Try and imagine some moves they'd do. Then realise that without a massive speed advantage to the guy with one sword is going to die.


"Don't let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, General. If you're to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But, if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy."
Own enphasis added.


Phew. Trying to debate with four people at the same time is timeconsuming.

EDIT: Hey... that Grevious vs. Obi-Wan reminds me of what happens in movies when you have one martial artist vs. several. The several end up waiting it line!
Grevious generally only uses two lightsabers with the other two either just waving about where they would be better used cutting Obi-Wan in half or hanging there doing nothing. And the two he does have he uses like a single lightsaber instead of two independant ones.

He fights like he's never used four lightsabers before.

[Mr. Scaly]

So you're saying that Obi-Wan is twice as fast as Grevious? In the movie they are just as fast as eachother.
Blocking requires the blocker to be continuosly pressing on the blade. Blocking one then the other just delays the attack by a millisecond without doing anything to stop it. It also requires greater strength than your opponent. Parrying is probably what you mean but that doesn't work because lightsabers have no mass.
Look at this video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA). There are dozens of places in the four/three lightsaber battle where Obi-Wan should have lost a limb or his life. That's why the writers made Grevious lose two hands in the first 20 seconds of the fight, it just looked too ridiculous.

Not if he hits the first blade hard enough to force it back then does the same to the second. He could obviously create enough kinetic energy to bat aside Grievous' blades so he could have redirected one up then the other down. And Obi didn't lose any arms because, like I said, his form specialised in warding off many different foes at once. And I never said anything about him being twice as fast...but Jedi do have enhanced reflexes.

Parrying, blocking, both involve not getting bissected. They're differet but I doubt Obi would have been too pick just then.


Also, AFIAK force users can't seem to use the force once their opponent gets that close and force throwing a lightsaber blade has never been done.
There's literaly no evidence that he can do this.


Obi kind of...did use the Force that close. He threw Grievous across the room around 1:45. And it's explained why that doesn't typically happen in Path of Destruction. The first thing that Force users learn when duelling is to shield themselves from interference from other Force users. So Obi could have done it. He just...didn't. Probably because it would have been less entertaining.

[GoC]

Not if he hits the first blade hard enough to force it back then does the same to the second. He could obviously create enough kinetic energy to bat aside Grievous' blades so he could have redirected one up then the other down. And Obi didn't lose any arms because, like I said, his form specialised in warding off many different foes at once. And I never said anything about him being twice as fast...but Jedi do have enhanced reflexes.
In order to bat both away his lightsaber must move faster than Grevious'. Hence you said he was faster.
Hits the first blade hard enough to send it back? The lightsaber is wieghtless, it'll get sent back, yes. But the force (actually energy but meh) required to send it back towards you again is so small that a mere millisecond suffices to do it.
Check the video. Obi-Wan didn't lose any limbs because Grevious kept deciding not to cut off his legs. Check 0:45-0:55 for examples.


Parrying, blocking, both involve not getting bissected. They're differet but I doubt Obi would have been too pick just then.
And I've told you in that very post you quote why both are impossible.


Obi kind of...did use the Force that close. He threw Grievous across the room around 1:45. And it's explained why that doesn't typically happen in Path of Destruction. The first thing that Force users learn when duelling is to shield themselves from interference from other Force users. So Obi could have done it. He just...didn't. Probably because it would have been less entertaining.
Is Path of Destruction canon?

[Beholder1995]

Hey... that Grevious vs. Obi-Wan reminds me of what happens in movies when you have one martial artist vs. several. The several end up waiting it line!
Grevious generally only uses two lightsabers with the other two either just waving about where they would be better used cutting Obi-Wan in half or hanging there doing nothing. And the two he does have he uses like a single lightsaber instead of two independant ones.

He fights like he's never used four lightsabers before.

Man, you took the words out of my mouth. Er... keyboard. Whatever.

Yes, Greivous should have totally crushed Obi Wan. The only reason he didn't was because of moronic technique. Maybe he was distracted, or something. :smalltongue:

EDIT::: And another thing- that thing Obi-Wan does to slice of Greivous' limbs, where he slides his own blade down the shaft to destroy his saber (while magically managing to not get hit by Greivous' three other arms, which are apparently dormant as he waits to get de-armed)- why don't combatants use that tactic against each other all the time? Lightsabers don't even have crossguards! That fact should render most lightsaber duels to a who-can-slide-their-saber-down-the-other's-first fights.

[GoC]

And another thing- that thing Obi-Wan does to slice of Greivous' limbs, where he slides his own blade down the shaft to destroy his saber (while magically managing to not get hit by Greivous' three other arms, which are apparently dormant as he waits to get de-armed)- why don't combatants use that tactic against each other all the time? Lightsabers don't even have crossguards! That fact should render most lightsaber duels to a who-can-slide-their-saber-down-the-other's-first fights.

Wow. Never thought of that but you're right!
More evidence for Star Wars is very inconsistent despite what star wars fanboys believe.

[Oslecamo]

EDIT::: And another thing- that thing Obi-Wan does to slice of Greivous' limbs, where he slides his own blade down the shaft to destroy his saber (while magically managing to not get hit by Greivous' three other arms, which are apparently dormant as he waits to get de-armed)- why don't combatants use that tactic against each other all the time? Lightsabers don't even have crossguards! That fact should render most lightsaber duels to a who-can-slide-their-saber-down-the-other's-first fights.

Well, Obi-Wan also defeated Anakin by slicing up his limbs.

In episode two that other sith guy also sliced up Anakin's arm and leg.

In episode 3's begginning Anakin has his revenge by slicing that sith's hands.

In the Empire strikes back Darth Vader cuts off Luke's hand.

In the last episode Luke cuts off Dath Vader's hand.

[Beholder1995]

...but not by sliding their lightsabers down their opponent's blade so that it connects with said opponent's handle and destroys it. (And probably badly burning and/or melting their hand). This is something, I might add, that crossguards in real-life swords are designed to prevent.

Watch the Greivous vs. Obi-Wan video a few posts above me and observe closely. You'll know what I mean.

I think.

[Oslecamo]

...but not by sliding their lightsabers down their opponent's blade so that it connects with said opponent's handle and destroys it. (And probably badly burning and/or melting their hand). This is something, I might add, that crossguards in real-life swords are designed to prevent.

Watch the Greivous vs. Obi-Wan video a few posts above me and observe closely. You'll know what I mean.

I think.

Well, but then you've got to take in acount that we're talking about LASER SWORDS here. This is, what the hell are the physicis involved in that?

What exactly happens when lightsabers collide? Do they atract each other? Do they repel each one? It's really possible to slide one lightsaber cross another?

Lightsabers deflect blaster lasers, so probably they deflect other laser swords, thus in order to slice your lightsaber across your oponent's lightsaber you would need a prodigial strenght to counter the blade's repulsion.

[Talkkno]

In order to bat both away his lightsaber must move faster than Grevious'. Hence you said he was faster.
Hits the first blade hard enough to send it back? The lightsaber is wieghtless, it'll get sent back, yes. But the force (actually energy but meh) required to send it back towards you again is so small that a mere millisecond suffices to do it.
Check the video. Obi-Wan didn't lose any limbs because Grevious kept deciding not to cut off his legs. Check 0:45-0:55 for examples.




In the TPM, we see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon move so fast when they are escaping the destroyer droids that when even taken frame by frame, they look very fuzy.

[GoC]

In the TPM, we see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon move so fast when they are escaping the destroyer droids that when even taken frame by frame, they look very fuzy.

We also see him move at almost ordinary speed most other times (like battling Grevious). And that's called artificial bluring.

[Beholder1995]

Well, but then you've got to take in acount that we're talking about LASER SWORDS here. This is, what the hell are the physicis involved in that?

What exactly happens when lightsabers collide? Do they atract each other? Do they repel each one? It's really possible to slide one lightsaber cross another?

Lightsabers deflect blaster lasers, so probably they deflect other laser swords, thus in order to slice your lightsaber across your oponent's lightsaber you would need a prodigial strenght to counter the blade's repulsion.

Even if it does take incredible strength, Obi-Wan is nothing short of exemplary. And certainly Greivous and just about any other episodic lightsaber opponent of the month could be assumed to be just as strong, if not more so, than Kenobi.

Again, there's a reason real swords have crossguards. It's just that... the only time the fact lightsabers are lacking them is taken advantage of is when Obi de-arms Greivous.

[Talkkno]

We also see him move at almost ordinary speed most other times (like battling Grevious). And that's called artificial bluring.

Never the less, the fact that we can't even see them moving with the naked eye is still impressive.

[GoC]

Never the less, the fact that we can't even see them moving with the naked eye is still impressive.

The fact that sometimes they move so fast they're a blur and other times at normal human speed indicates inconsistency. Hence we should go the the median speed. Which happens to be only slightly better than what a peak human could do.

[Talkkno]

The fact that sometimes they move so fast they're a blur and other times at normal human speed indicates inconsistency. Hence we should go the the median speed. Which happens to be only slightly better than what a peak human could do.

It never occurs to you that they are using the Force to augment their speed when needed?

[GoC]

It never occurs to you that they are using the Force to augment their speed when needed?

And getting hit by someone doesn't count as needed?

[Beholder1995]

You know, as long as we're picking apart lightsaber duels that should've ended badly for the victor, I've always wanted to ask why Darth Sidious can take out three 'regular' jedi masters in six seconds but takes a good minute, along with the help of anakin, to kill Mace Windu?

[Talkkno]

You know, as long as we're picking apart lightsaber duels that should've ended badly for the victor, I've always wanted to ask why Darth Sidious can take out three 'regular' jedi masters in six seconds but takes a good minute, along with the help of anakin, to kill Mace Windu?

Because Mace Windu's lightsaber stlye is inherntly less suspeicitalbe to the cloud of the dark side Sidious was using agisnt the Jedi to cloud their perspections and judgement.

[chiasaur11]

You know, as long as we're picking apart lightsaber duels that should've ended badly for the victor, I've always wanted to ask why Darth Sidious can take out three 'regular' jedi masters in six seconds but takes a good minute, along with the help of anakin, to kill Mace Windu?

Because he's Samuel L Scrubbed Jackson.

In fact, if the film made any sense, the series would end there.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hold two lightsabers a little way apart both parralel to the floor. Rotate so that they both attempt to bysect your oponent. If said opponent has only one lightsaber they will not be able to block both of yours.
Disclaimer: I am not a Jedi, nor am I experienced with lightsabers in particular. Duh. :smalltongue:

That said, I've fenced single sword against case of rapiers (that is, guy using two swords) before, and seen many more people do similar, and nobody does that. Why? You get stabbed in the chest before you get to do the bisecting, that's why. If you swing both blades out wide to either side, your opponent simply thrusts and you're done. A simple thrust is a much faster maneuver than a pair of wide arcs; you'd never finish bringing your swords home.

[GoC]

You know, as long as we're picking apart lightsaber duels that should've ended badly for the victor, I've always wanted to ask why Darth Sidious can take out three 'regular' jedi masters in six seconds but takes a good minute, along with the help of anakin, to kill Mace Windu?

Noone can take three jedi at once without serious dark side mind warping.

Renegade Paladin: True. Thrusts would be even more effective however I wanted something impossible to refute. Grevious has two more lightsabers and given how there are very very few thrusts used in jedi combat I think he's fairly safe.

[Renegade Paladin]

The fact that sometimes they move so fast they're a blur and other times at normal human speed indicates inconsistency. Hence we should go the the median speed. Which happens to be only slightly better than what a peak human could do.
This is what we call the Golden Mean fallacy. It's also patently untrue, since a peak human can't leap twenty feet in the air from a standing start, which we see Jedi do with some regularity. :smalltongue:

Renegade Paladin: True. Thrusts would be even more effective however I wanted something impossible to refute. Grevious has two more lightsabers and given how there are very very few thrusts used in jedi combat I think he's fairly safe.
I would note that Darth Sidious seemed to be fond of them, though he did them stupidly. Darth Maul, notably the only apprentice of his who actually learned his lightsaber skills from Sidious, killed Qui-Gon Jinn with a thrust to the chest. I think there are a couple others, but those two examples are the ones that stand out in my mind at first thought.

[GoC]

This is what we call the Golden Mean fallacy. It's also patently untrue, since a peak human can't leap twenty feet in the air from a standing start, which we see Jedi do with some regularity. :smalltongue:
So what better meassure do you have?
And I said speed not jumping as I presumed they were force jumping. While force speeding doesn't work in the context.


I would note that Darth Sidious seemed to be fond of them, though he did them stupidly. Darth Maul, notably the only apprentice of his who actually learned his lightsaber skills from Sidious, killed Qui-Gon Jinn with a thrust to the chest. I think there are a couple others, but those two examples are the ones that stand out in my mind at first thought.
And how many lightsaber attacks have their been in the movies (an attack being a slice, ect.)?
Compare that to the number of thrusts. Yeah, that's what I though.

EDIT: Checked the Golden Mean fallacy. No it's not. The Golden Mean fallacy uses half the range plus the least element, not the median.

[Beholder1995]

And how many lightsaber attacks have their been in the movies (an attack being a slice, ect.)?
Compare that to the number of thrusts. Yeah, that's what I though.

...particularly from Obi-Wan. Thrusting seems a strictly Sith move. Probably dishonorable, or somesuch.

Now, if I understand this argument correctly, then I think I can clarify it by saying that GoC means that the scissor attack would be effective for the General because he also has two more arms to defend himself with, while the other two arms are doing said scissor attack. Granted, a fast thrust attack might overcome this, but again, it seems like something the Jedi don't do, and unless Obi-Wan can jump back and stab the General at the same time, they'll both probably end up dead in this situation.

[Renegade Paladin]

So what better meassure do you have?
This one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-0.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-6.jpg

Overlay of frames 3 and 5:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-3-5-overlay.jpg

Interlace:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Star%20Wars%20evidence/ForceSpeed-Interlace.jpg

Considering the frame rate, that demonstrates incredible speed (less than a third of a second to clear the doorway). And it would be kind of hard for it to be a special effects mistake, since it's not like something was left out; they deliberately tried to do that.

And how many lightsaber attacks have their been in the movies (an attack being a slice, ect.)?
Compare that to the number of thrusts. Yeah, that's what I though.
Because slashing is frankly easier to do. This does not mean that a Jedi would refuse to thrust when presented with the opportunity and boxed in on either side by lightsabers.

[GoC]

I notice they also only became invisible.:smallamused:


Because slashing is frankly easier to do. This does not mean that a Jedi would refuse to thrust when presented with the opportunity and boxed in on either side by lightsabers.
But they do.

[Oslecamo]

Again, there's a reason real swords have crossguards. It's just that... the only time the fact lightsabers are lacking them is taken advantage of is when Obi de-arms Greivous.


FOR CATGIRL'S SAKE, HOW DO YOU DO AN ARMGUARD THAT'S ABLE TO BLOCK A LIGHTSABER?

I always assumed that was the reason they didn't have it. The whole reason lightsabers are used is that they can cut trough almost anything, so if you could easily fit an armguard in them, you could also build droids and doors of that stuff, and jedis woud be royally screwed, since they wouldn't be able to one hit kill every enemy in their path.

[Beholder1995]

FOR CATGIRL'S SAKE, HOW DO YOU DO AN ARMGUARD THAT'S ABLE TO BLOCK A LIGHTSABER?

I always assumed that was the reason they didn't have it. The whole reason lightsabers are used is that they can cut trough almost anything, so if you could easily fit an armguard in them, you could also build droids and doors of that stuff, and jedis woud be royally screwed, since they wouldn't be able to one hit kill every enemy in their path.

..but that still doesn't answer why they don't take advantage of Lightsabers' crossguardlessness more often.

[13_CBS]

The post-Ruusan sabers were probably built that way since there weren't too many saber-weilding enemies to fight, so a guard wouldn't have been as useful.

...still doesn't explain why Jedi didn't slide their sabers down the length of other saber blades :smallconfused:

Star Wars is inconsistent!

[Oslecamo]

..but that still doesn't answer why they don't take advantage of Lightsabers' crossguardlessness more often.

For the same reasons that:
-They can't see a clone army marching upon their main temple.
-No backdoor exit for emergencies in said temple.
-They wear robes in a world full of blasters and high tech armor.
-They don't use blasters themselves more often.
-They're suposed to be guardians of peace, not professional mutilators/assassins.

[Renegade Paladin]

I notice they also only became invisible.:smallamused:
Incorrect. That's six frames of movement. At 24 frames per second, that's going from a standstill (a not particularly prepared to run standstill, at that) to out of the hallway in a quarter of a second. That is well beyond the human norm.


But they do.
When and under what circumstances?

[GoC]

Incorrect. That's six frames of movement. At 24 frames per second, that's going from a standstill (a not particularly prepared to run standstill, at that) to out of the hallway in a quarter of a second. That is well beyond the human norm.
So they don't become invisible?:smallconfused:
Care to tell me what that is then? And don't say bluring due to speed, you're not that foolish.


When and under what circumstances?
I meant that they do indeed refuse to thrust. Maybe they dislike innuendo?:smallamused:

[Renegade Paladin]

Given that we can see them, albeit blurred, no they're not invisible.

And you say they refuse to thrust with a lightsaber, yet all you do is state it. Name an instance when a Jedi would have been well served by stabbing someone yet refused to do so. Most of the lightsaber fighting styles that are used in the movie canon do not lend themselves well to that sort of attack (Ataru's acrobatics lend themselves naturally to slashing motions following the body's movement, Soresu doesn't initiate attacks often in any form, etc.), but this doesn't translate into a refusal to use them. We have, in point of fact, never seen anyone attempt an attack style on a Jedi in melee that would leave itself open to a simple thrust, and using a lightsaber like a rapier would be foolish since there is no guard to catch the opponent's blade on a riposte from parrying.

In the examples I cited, Maul used slashing routines throughout most of the fight; he took a thrust when Qui-Gon had his lightsaber out of the way because the opportunity presented itself, not because that was how he had been attacking all along. As for Sidious... I have no idea what he was doing; by all rights the Jedi should have cut him down in the opening seconds. He had his saber in both hands held up against his body and was jamming it out at them in jerky motions without any sort of warding position in between; there was no defense involved at all.

[Mr. Scaly]

In order to bat both away his lightsaber must move faster than Grevious'. Hence you said he was faster.
Hits the first blade hard enough to send it back? The lightsaber is wieghtless, it'll get sent back, yes. But the force (actually energy but meh) required to send it back towards you again is so small that a mere millisecond suffices to do it.
Check the video. Obi-Wan didn't lose any limbs because Grevious kept deciding not to cut off his legs. Check 0:45-0:55 for examples.

Grievous would have a harder time holding onto his saber than you seem to think...he'd have to fight against the momentum of getting his weapon knocked knocked back then bring it back on the original course. Like swinging a baseball bat, getting it knocked back with another, then trying to bring it back to the same position again.
Well I don't think I said that exactly, but whatever. He probably is. Jedi have superhuman reflexes after all.
He didn't try. That doesn't mean he'd succeed.


And I've told you in that very post you quote why both are impossible.

No you didn't. You said why blocking was impossible, not parrying, and as I've just said he'd just have to block one for a millisecond hard enough to hit the blade away then do the same for the other.


Is Path of Destruction canon?

Asking if EU is canon is opening a whole new can of worms... I would say yes but my opinion is probably biased. Heh...



And yeesh, I go to work and the talk moves on! So what's the big thing now? :smallsmile:

[13_CBS]

And you say they refuse to thrust with a lightsaber, yet all you do is state it. Name an instance when a Jedi would have been well served by stabbing someone yet refused to do so.

IIRC, Dooku uses a thrust to disable Obi Wan in...Episode II? Since Dooku is a practitioner of Makashii, and since Makashii is a normal Jedi lightsaber technique (albeit an unpopular one), I think that there are some Jedi who would perform thrusts if the opportunity presents itself.

[GoC]

Given that we can see them, albeit blurred, no they're not invisible.
Frame 2 and 3.


And you say they refuse to thrust with a lightsaber, yet all you do is state it. Name an instance when a Jedi would have been well served by stabbing someone yet refused to do so. Most of the lightsaber fighting styles that are used in the movie canon do not lend themselves well to that sort of attack (Ataru's acrobatics lend themselves naturally to slashing motions following the body's movement, Soresu doesn't initiate attacks often in any form, etc.), but this doesn't translate into a refusal to use them. We have, in point of fact, never seen anyone attempt an attack style on a Jedi in melee that would leave itself open to a simple thrust, and using a lightsaber like a rapier would be foolish since there is no guard to catch the opponent's blade on a riposte from parrying.
Well it was you who said thrusting was effective (which makes sense). So I concluded that given how rarely they use it they must be refusing to use it.

It was you who said a thrust would be an effective tactic for Obi-Wan to use despite the fact that Grevious had two other lightsabers. Sorry for believing you.:smallannoyed:


In the examples I cited, Maul used slashing routines throughout most of the fight; he took a thrust when Qui-Gon had his lightsaber out of the way because the opportunity presented itself, not because that was how he had been attacking all along. As for Sidious... I have no idea what he was doing; by all rights the Jedi should have cut him down in the opening seconds. He had his saber in both hands held up against his body and was jamming it out at them in jerky motions without any sort of warding position in between; there was no defense involved at all.
There are many many events like that in Star Wars. Freeze this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related) movie at 1:31 for an example. That situation should have resulted in mutual death. Darth Maul doesn't use his lightsaber for blocking (or anything at all) but instead of slicing Qui-Gon's nearly in half he kicks him, which somehow stops Qui-Gon's lightsaber mere inches from Darth Maul's face/neck.


Grievous would have a harder time holding onto his saber than you seem to think...he'd have to fight against the momentum of getting his weapon knocked knocked back then bring it back on the original course. Like swinging a baseball bat, getting it knocked back with another, then trying to bring it back to the same position again.
Well I don't think I said that exactly, but whatever. He probably is. Jedi have superhuman reflexes after all.
He didn't try. That doesn't mean he'd succeed.

Parrying is probably what you mean but that doesn't work because lightsabers have no mass.
I think I've mentioned this twice now. The lightsaber has no momentum. That's why I was saying that parrying doesn't work.
The lightsaber could be swung back as wrist work. How easy is it to turn your wrist?
Even if the lightsaber was as heavy as your baseball bat Grevious has amazing strength.


No you didn't. You said why blocking was impossible, not parrying, and as I've just said he'd just have to block one for a millisecond hard enough to hit the blade away then do the same for the other.

Parrying is probably what you mean but that doesn't work because lightsabers have no mass.


And yeesh, I go to work and the talk moves on! So what's the big thing now? :smallsmile:
We're going down a tangent of a tangent of a tangent of a tangent (4 tangents).:smalltongue:

EDIT: Wow, I'm now a 2006 Ogre! The best kind.:smallcool: